| Author | Message | ||
     steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
As Most of you know on this thread, when I Left the LDS church , my sister did not speak to me for over a year. Although we now speak , she is fearful to talk theology with me. As far back as I can remember my sister, has always needed a crutch to lean on. She always seem to be searching for a place to fit in. She was never in the pop crowd at school,usually in the arts ,drams etc. I can remember her always being into astrology. I can even remember back to her holding se'ances & she even had a oui'ja board. Through the influence of our Mormon background and presure (Disguised with some attention and Love ) she found her place to fit in. It gave her the social group she needed to fit in. Although I Joined the Lds a Year or so later,now looking back , i see it was pressure from my sister, that led to this decision,because i never really felt it in my boosom or heart for that matter, that the church was the true vessel of GOD. I mean, now looking back I was 13 years old, two elderly little old women from Utah gave me the lessons, with my sister always present, & after the fouth lesson were already pressuring me to be baptised. I really believe that i chose to be baptised to please my sister & my family History(my Great Grandfather stared the branch in my home town,back in the early 1900's) & not myself. All my cousins on my dad's side of the family were Mormon & my dad was an excomunicated Mormon. Thus I come to the real subject of this thread. While home this Thanks Giving Holiday, my Grandmother gave me a letter written to my dad from my sister pressuring him to rejoin the church. This was written some time in the late 70's, probably 79 or 1980. In the next day or so I will share this letter with you. My dad did eventually rejoin the Church. As some of you who read this thread already know what his situation is now. I pray for his & All my cousins release from the Mormon Church & I truly think he is not far from being on his way out. My sister has been excomunnicated Twice, but chose both times to return to a system that plays again on her self -esteem & need to belong. GOD Bless to All Letter to Come Steel Jude 3 | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1043 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.45.153 |
Looking forward to it, steel. That was an interesting post. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 44 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Well here is the Letter. Although it is personal, I think it should be shared. My sister was 18 at the time she wrote this. "Daddy, Did you know that Mary , mother of Jesus, was for-ordained in the pre-existence to have Christ the son on the earth. In other words, she knew she would do this when she came on the Earth? But just like you and I , her memory was vailed when she was born on the Earth. And she didn't remember that she would do this. Did you know that Adam Fell, but that he and Eve did not sin, because in order for the Gospel plan to be on the Earth, they had to know right and wrong, so that we would have free agency to choose whether or not to follow Heavenly Father's principle while here.Also there is a subtance, which you learn about in the gospel(l.d.s.) that was in Adam and Eve, in other words they did not have blood in them,in Doctrine & Covenants or Pearl of Great Price it is said that there is a substance in them that is "finer than Blood",and they could not have children untill the substance "finer than Blood" was removed. So , if you read in Gensis, you will find that God told Adam and Eve , before they ate of the fruit, that thay should be fruitful and multiply the Earth. How could they do this, which of course means have children, unless the substance was removed. Also they knew nothing about having children untill after they ate of the fruit,yet Christ told them before"Be fruitful and multiply". Everyone thinks that when thay were punished they were "MADE" to have children. Only the thing is that the "PAIN" of having children was increased. Exsplain that if you were a Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Episcapal or whatever. You can't. How do I know these things are true? O.K. when I say this I know that God himself reveals all this stuff, to the members of his church,not just the members of our hometown branch, but the 8.5 million members across the world. You ask how I know we are not being Led Around by our noses, as other members of diffrent religions are? Because , number 1, God, Heavenly Father, answers prayers. 2. He would not answer you falsely if you prayed silently with earnest heart.3. Other members of other churches do not know half the fullness that we know they could never interpret the bible correctly, because thay don't believe in modern revelation, and they interpret it the way thay think it supposecd to be. Being that we know all these things, and others don't know them, and the fact that we allow God to interpret all things through his appointed prophet and reveal it to us if it is true or not through earnest prayer, is all the evidence in the world that this church is true. 8.5 million people are not walking around with false information. They know to pray to Heavenly Father to find out if all things are true. People in other churches don't think about this, because they think they know all they need to . In Pearl of Great price, pg 4 verse 38 God says, "There is no end to my works neither to my words". Why should Revelation Stop? When the world is at its most wicked? Why, when records were kept of the Holy Lands Jerusalem,bethlehem etc...(Known as the bible, should there not be records of the times after that? Records of the times now. Only if you don't believe in God, Dad, will you not know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Later day Saints is True. Daddy, I Know you Know it's true. I know by your unableness to make a decision. We don't go to church on Sunday and preach the people to death.We know already what is to come. We read the bible and the new books and know, and give everyone the chance to speak. In the gospel of Jesus Christ , you never stop learning there is always something new, because there is always Eternal Progression,you'll never stop learning or progressing, even in the Celestial Kingdom. I'm saying this to you because i know you know it's true, and don't mary outside this church. You know, the reason the reason none of the things in the D & C and Pearl of Great Price are in the bible is because the bible is a record of the time when the gospel was on the Earth. The people in the bible knew the ordinances of the Gospel. So the things , the principals of the Gospel were not recorded. Now when the Gospel was off the Earth books were sent or placed here when Christ visited the Americas. And revealed to those after the Gospel was gone off the Earth, so that when it came back , people would understand what the bible means,(along with prayer)and understand the Gospel the way Christ meant it, and not man himself. Don't Daddy , don't put off being baptised if you know it is true. Heavenly Father won't be pleased if he knows that you know the fullness of his Gospel and put off becoming part of it because you are frightened of the demands that will be made on you. "Rich Rewards" come when you do "WHAT YOU KNOW IS RIGHT". And you'll know this by praying silently, openly, earnestly,and sincerely. Don't hesitate to be sealed in the Temple with your bride. Daddy, wouldn't warm your heart to know that your son and two daughters would be sealed to you as a family for time and all eternity,and that your wife would be yours in heaven and that you and she could be Gods and Goddesses? Daddy I want to be your daughter in Heaven, and it makes me cry and be depressed when i think that we won't be a family in Heaven, and that your next marriage could end in divorce, if you're are not married under the covenant. Because you probably won't have another chance. When you are in the church nothing else matters to you, it really doesn't. It's not a chore to get up on Sunday, not a chore to pray, not a chore to read the scripture. Everythings a joy and this religion doesn't give that sticky-"He's a saved Christian Man,Who's excepted the Lord all his Life, Praise the Lord kind of Feeling". I'd Hate for someone to describe me that Way. We don't say things like that because we know it's Sacred. The only things we are called is SAINTS or Mormons. And thats an ordinance from Heavenly Father. People say: "I know this church is true",because they actually do. You daddy, have no excuse for not knowing it's true. Please don't dissapoint me. You never really get depressed when you have the Gospel, cause you only know joyful truth. If Grandma had all of this she would never be depressed. Never Icould promise that. Do your best, for me who want to continue to be your daughter after death. I Love you that Much, Yours Truly, Your Daughter. P.S. What your underware size? tell me Soon." Well my friends thats the letter. Comments welcome & then Latter on I will give my Thoughts on the Letter. God Bless Steel Jude 3. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 236 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Brainwashing scare tactics had been placed upon your sister to write such a letter. Its a terrible shame. Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1046 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.45.12 |
steel, All I can say is "Oh my Gosh!" I'm trying to imagine how this made your father feel. I hope you have given your family over to God. I had to do that with some of mine, especially my Mom. When I was home last summer, she was still busy, after some forty-five years, with geneology. Geneology is fine for a hobby, I suppose, though the Bible tells us geneologies are useless. But Mom said something. "Since I know you kids are never going to get back into the church, I'm doing this for you." (Two of my sisters and a brother are still members, but inactive.) The saddest thing about this is, I don't think my brother cares one way or the other, and my sisters stay in it in order not to offend Mom. So all these years, they have not attended any church or enjoy the Bible. They have been taught that as long as their name is on the lds membership rolls, they don't need to concern themselves. And worse, they do not want to hear anything about Christianity, which sounds just like your situation with your sister. My one sister says, "Of course, we worship Jesus. The name of our church is the Church of Jesus Christ....." When we can really let go, we are showing our trust in a loving God. He loves them much more than I do or can. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 570 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
All: Firstly, Nulla, had the letter been written by someone claiming allegiance to a Chruch you "accept", with the difference in doctrine written accordingly, would you feel it as easy to claim that ANY undue influence was placed on that person? - sorry mate, but you are letting yourself down just running along the "brainwashing" track - what you say is, to put it bluntly , crap - you have no right, or any ability to comment as you have - so much for your lauded expectation of fact and proof. The shame is on you. Steel in no way claimed she was forced or in any other way co-erced into making a heart felt plea to her father - your view of this is blinkered severely by your prejudice - again, shame be on you. GC: Maybe his father felt loved by the concern shown by his daughter, maybe that show of love encouraged him to put aside the differences he had with the Lord and recommit himself. (Message edited by joesdad on November 29, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
This letter has begun to bring back some old memories, some I will share soon. Any thoughts on the finer than Blood statement? Steel Jude 3 | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1048 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.42.38 |
jd, you are assuming this man's differences were with the Lord. Doesn't it occur to you his differences may have been with the mormon church? If he did it solely for the purposes of pleasing his daughter, (similar to my siblings and my Mother) will this please God? A covenant has two participants. The daughter broke her side of the covenant by being excommunicated more than once. She broke the covenant with her father. How sincere was her plea? What value was it to either of their salvation? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1049 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.42.38 |
steel, This substance (not blood) in Adam and Eve. This is a new one on me. I have heard hints of it, but not in this way. What are the mormons suggesting here? That God created man without free agency, (robots for His pleasure), preplanning that they would do something He forbad, in order that they would not do things He forbad afterwards. And yet soon after, their son murdered their other son. Mormons are saying that God proceeds by 'trial and error'! They believe either (1)God plans for our suffering, (even if self-imposed) plans evil, because our 'all-knowing God' really isn't a loving God at all. Or (2) the 'all-knowing God created a monster that got out of His control? And they call this the 'Great Council' that they previously approved! This is not the God I worship! This is the reason I left the mormon church. Their god is a fallible man. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
I can remember my sister pressuring me . She would always say : Won't it be Great that you can baptise our Grandmother when you receive the priesthood. You see my grandmother and i have always been Close, I actually lived with her my last 2 years of high school. I see in some ways that my sister was using me to get to my Grandmother. The fact is "My grandmother has always been a Rock Hard Christian". Yes my Grandmother married a Mormon, but she never converted. Her 3 sons were raised Mormon . Her husband (Mormon Elder) died while he was drunk(car crash)(so much for the word of wisdom)& left her to raise 3 boys ages 6-9 by her self. So I had a grandfather I never Knew ,& only saw through Pictures. My point is I'm not angry here ,but to show the fallacy of my sister quote: that if my Grandmother had the gospel she would never be depressed. My grandmother Knows who Jesus is , she in my eyes has been the one who has remained stable all these years. My sister tells my dad that she want to be his daughter in heaven & it makes her cry and depressed that we won't be a family in heaven, and then she turns around and say that if you have the true gospel you can't be depressed. sounds odd to me. I Have never seen my grandmother depressed. My sister was right though about me baptising my grandmother, I do baptise my Granmother every chance i get. I baptise her with the True WORD of God. Yes I fell into the Mormon Trap, but my grandmother used the full armor of God all these years.(Eph.ch.6) How many times did she invite the missionaries into her house , show the Love and send (Not hungry) them on their way. she was never one to turn them away & she always listened to what they said, but the armor remained strong. AT the time my sister wrote this she was living with a Mormon Family in another town. The father of that family was the Stake President, so i'm sure she was well indoctrinated. Yes my dad did return to the Mormon church, but in talks with him over the past year , showing him how to read & think for himself , he has not attended the local branch in almost a year & of course he just married a wonderful lady who is baptist by the way. So much for our Heavenly family. If a heavenly family is any thing like my earthly family , i'll probably decline anyway. You see the thing is, Christ perfected us through his shed Blood, he has given us the chance to be his Bride, a chance to be a part of a family that is beyound our comprehension. If we are in his Kingdom we are all family. We won't be there having sex all the time with our Goddess wife to create pre-exsistence spirit babies for a world I'm going to be A God of. Yes i believe Family is an institution of God here on this Earth. It is one of the strongest institution God ever Created, but I think it is a teacher of a bigger family to come ,a family started by ONE Blood and reconciled by the Blood of Christ. Christ said I came not to bring peace but the sword. Christ knew that this Earthly family would be torn apart , and those that excepted his Grace & sacrifice would become part of a much larger Family. I Love my sister & Dad, But the fact is I love Christ more! If i'm worrying about trying to have a heavenly family , I 've got my mind on something other than praising God.I become wrap up in works . Christ , "YES READ MY LIPS" CHRIST said there would be NO MARRIAGE in HEAVEN. Sis, I love you, but sorry to tell you, I don't believe dad will ever make it to the temple. I am so sorry that you won't have your sealed family, but if you ever decide to accept the "Free Gift " Christ gave you ,you will then be welcome to Join our family. Praise the LORD!! Your brother is a Christian Man Who has come to Love the LORD & will Love Him all his Life. When ever you describe me to others, the above will be JUST FINE. Love , STEEL JUDE 3 | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1053 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.46.13 |
God bless you, steel. This is a great example of true faith, willingness to give up all earthly things to become one in the family of God. You have offered your love and your testimony to your family. This is good. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Steel what has become of your sister, and what is her feelings towards you since you left the LDS? Joesdad, Firstly Robert, you totally misunderstand me in thinking I mean she was forced by your church or its members to write the letter. What I mean and still stand by, is that she was brainwashed into a system that teaches to it members such rubbish that she has included in her letter.. Steels sister is just diplaying in the letter that she herself is or was a result of those teachings. Would you be saying the same if this letter was written by a Branch Davidian member who had been brainwashed into believing that the only way to heaven was through the “Chosen Vessell David Koresh? Or from a Jehovah telling you that you will not be selected as one of gods chosen ones to enter into the kingdom of god if you do not marry within the Jehovah system? Mormons are lead to believe the BoM is the word of god along with the Pearl Of Great Price and its contents of the Book of Abraham. We see from your so called prophets that the only true church is the LDS and the rest we are told are not worthy. These prophets also state that the only way to your heaven is through JS. Your members are brainwashed into believing all this most times without question, and or fear of questioning your church leaders and teachers. My son was married last weekend in country Victoria at his in laws property. They had a civil ceremony. Her and her family have only been in OZ for 2 years, they are catholic. Family came from Ireland for the wedding. My son is not a church person but it was not his decision to have a civil wedding. We all rejoiced and took part in a wonderful occasion. My niece and her Turkish Muslim husband attended, friends of my son who I believe are atheist were there. But the family members who are still in the LDS refused the open invitation for them to attend. When asked why on Monday this week they stated that they only wish to be with other mormons when it comes to religious occasions. With all due respect to Steels sister it is not her I am against, it is the LDS system that has told her that her father will not go to the same heaven as her even though at the time he may have been a person who believed in Jesus and the bible. In her making such a statement she is using cult scare tactics for placing fear into a person The shame is on the LDS and the way it brainwashes its members. Steel, I am sorry to sidetrack and seem to take away the importance of the contents of your posts in this thread. What you have written and stated here especially in the last post really brings home your story and I applaud you for having the courage to write it. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 572 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: Again what you pretend as impatiality in fact amplifies the prejudice you have against LDS, I and just about all LDS I know have no problems in attending religious services of other faiths, part of my Christmas itinerary this year is to attend midnight mass at the Catholic Church around the corner !!, they go to weddings, funerals and I have no problem with my kids finding out or participating in holidays of other faiths - what I find amazing is that your appear to claim LDS are brainwashed, failing totally to provide any kind of evidence of this maybe yourself having been brainwashed by your peers into making such unreasoable and unfounded claims?, yet then critisize thopse that do make choices that you do not agree with - that is waht they call hypocrisy is it not? Nulla, take a moment to consider that at this point the problem is with your unwillingness to consider we have a right to worship, as we desire - your fabricating an LDS-wide attitude is dishonest at best. As Dean has disappeared of these threads, and you choose to claim to know I am Brainwashed, are you able to prove it to me? (don't be tempted to so no, because I am brainwashed, or I will pee myself laughing) BTW, I should be going in for my resection on Tuesday. Robert | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Nulla, i see my sister usually during the Holidays. I just had my second daughter seven weeks ago, and my sister e-mailed me congrats,but also through in the pre-exsistence of my daughter and wouldn't it be special if they could only tell you what it was like to be with Jesus before they come. Of course this opened the door for theological discourse, & of course she hasn't responded back. She has a daughter 17, who I know she exspects to be married in the temple. She told my Grandmother I was not to talk religion with her ,her daughter, or husband,especially her daughter and husband,because they were really weak in their testimony right now. So basically we don't talk religion unless she opens the door. She Quoted in her Letter "Rich rewards come when you do "WHAT YOU KNOW IS RIGHT". Well let's see, my sister has an abusive husband & He has manage to get them in debt with the IRS. So they have trouble making ends meet each month. I just don't see where her Rewards have been so Great. Again I love my sister,& would do anything for her, But all I can do is knock , it is she that has to open the Door. Robert hope all goes well. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1057 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.40.89 |
joesdad, People are sharing their experiences and reasons for believing the mormon church is a cult. Just because your experience may be different doesn't mean we are all liars. You have the right to be validated. So do we. This is the purpose of factnet. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 574 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: i would love to think that what you say is true, but few of those posting here express any more than a prejudiced view against the Church, and some (mentioning no names) just say stuff they know is not true - so no, I do not accept that what goes on here is the pupose of this site. Where all of you to examine what you say, why you say it and the vision of the Church you are attempting to potray being honest with yourselves, much of what is posted here is based on rumour, half truths and a lot of made up scaremongering, and you know that as well as I do. It is disappointing that most of you hide behind these prjudices as we could actually have some decent doctrinally based conversations - but you will do as your needs must. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Steel I hope you can in the end have a decent relationship with your sister, thanks for explaining, I was not surpised to read that you are not allowed to discuss religion with her if in contact, for I to come accross that with my inlaws and I am amazed in the fact that it was religion that caused the dispute and it is religion alone that can resolve it for in my case I have tried my utmost to treat them as normal, in every day family matters but they always bring up that the difference between the LDS lifestyle and that of my own is the cause of their not wanting to be part of our family or in fact part of their immediate family that left the LDS. Keep knocking on that door Steel she may one day open it. Joesdad, While your in the laughing mood I hope you can take in much laughter prior to your operation which I hope and pray is most successful and that it brings you relief from the suffering that has been placed upon you over the years. Can you tell me how you treat and look at other doorknocking religions when they approach you either at home or in the street? You make strong claims that I and others are prejudiced against the LDS and hide behind such prejudices by being here and posting, yet you fail to realize in making such claims only shows that you are prejudiced against all religions other than the LDS and it is you who hides behind your prejudice just as much as your claims that we do. Myself and others who visit this and other threads voicing our disproval of various christian sects also have as much right to our beliefs which may be against your beliefs. We also have as much right to say to you that you are fabricating an anti-christian wide attitude and that too is dishonesty at its best. Your tactics Robert to say such things are a product of the LDS and I know that by replying with the same tactical questions it will not be pleasing to you as well. If Robert you feel that I am one of those who post and claim certain things are a fact and in doing so I know are untrue, please direct me to such claims I have made and point out such lies and fabrications and in doing so please show me the facts that you have dispove such lies. Does the LDS practice any of the following? Claim contact with heaven or the cosmos Claim God has chosen a leader as His divinely chosen representative Give royal or divine status to the leader Insist their society mirrors the divine structure of heaven Claim to be God’s chosen people Produce sacred literature Proclaim a bigger and better canopy than Christianity’s Cult Characteristics of the LDS (taken from The Mormon Cospiracy) “Teaching that the doctrine of the Mormon Church is reality, the doctrine is to be accepted, not understood. Reality is black and white, good and evil, spiritual world versus physical word. As an example, the Mormon Church is the only true church on the face of the earth. Mormon Church members are taught to feel part of an elite corps. Following and accepting church doctrine insures members eternal life and a delightful life in heaven. The Mormon Church promotes a sense of community with love and friendship, with special flattery and attention to new members Mormon Church members are manipulated through fear and guilt, fear that if they don’t practice church doctrine faithfully, that they will fail to reach the highest levels of heaven, fear that if they don’t wear their garments, that they will not be protected by God. Mormon Church members are taught that any problems that they may have are due to their own inadequacies. If they are having marital, financial or other difficult problems, it is because they are not following church doctrine, or are not praying enough. Guilt, fear and shame are present in the minds of Mormons, if they are not loyal, and fail to follow the church doctrine. Unlike non-cult organizations, Mormon Church members find it difficult to leave, when they find out that church teachings are false, or otherwise become disenchanted with the church. Terrible things may happen to them, and their family if they leave. Those who do leave, often lose their family, friends and other social contacts within the Mormon community.” I would like to see your comments Robert on this. Can you point out what you believe to be false in any of the above and though some of the immediate above statements are not my personal claims I will be happy to discuss them with you. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 575 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: Whenever someone knocks on my door ('round here it's only JW's) i usually have abrief chat about whatever topic they are talking about that day. I rarely say anything about my own religious beliefs as most of them think I do so just to argue - in fact I'd rather be watching TV or playing with the kids. no my friend, you mistake the whirlwind of fanciful ideas that appear here to be correct in there entirety. I do not, so far as I recall actively attack anyone's beliefs nor do I treat them differently because of what they believe. I would treat an LDS fool just the same as a Catholic or Jewish one, I tend to react to the way a person deals with me (though I do my best to show them love at the same time). You may well say "We also have as much right to say to you that you are fabricating an anti-christian wide attitude and that too is dishonesty at its best", yet what I post here would not support your view, so where does it in fact come from - your prejudice against me fuelled by your misunderstanding? Nulla, I believe that any statement you make as representing LDS views, which are incorrect and should be known by those having been members of the Church, are deemed to be your fault as the information you obtain you trust and rely on. However, if I have explained the true LDS position on a point and you then continue with the false one (IF) then I would hold you responsible for that continued making of false statements. The lsit you provide - why THAT list?, I have seen a detailed examination of the criteria used by the creators of this site as to what they consider are the characteristics of a cult, in which it is shown that LDS do NOT fit into that criteria, by Solopilot, it may be of interest to you to read it. Back yo the list you use, considering the title of the document it is taken from, is it really a big leao to work out that the list has been created to FIT the LDS church? As for the quote: The first line is false, and has been for the 24 years I have been a member of the Church - evidence tot he contrary would be interesting (remember I am a member of the Church, have griwn up in it, been less active, been on a Mission, been excommunicated, stayed away and came back with no undue influence at all). How is the second line exclusive to Mormonism? Fourth line, what is this meant to mean? Pretending we are some sort of army? why? Fifth line, totally oversimplified, and because of that it is false. First line second paragraph, this is so full of negative references used purposely to manipulate the reader who is likely already to have some form of negative idea of the Church - amusing as the sentence is accusing the Church of the self same thing!! Second line - absolute rubbish - we are encouraged very stronly to be financially self-sufficient. If I mess up because I make a bad decision, then the result is caused by that decision. Third line, rubbish again, I would find it harder to break the agreement I have with my cable provider than to leave the Church - scaremongering again. Terrible things may happen to them, and their family if they leave - see the author chucks in a scary line - then leaves it in the air for the reader to imagine what they mean, they say no more as they know there is no truth in what they are attempting to portray. Those who do leave, often lose their family, friends and other social contacts within the Mormon community - anything like this would be down to the persons and their falily's individual decisions, the Church in NO WAY encourages or condones such a reaction. So, from what angle would your end of the discussion come, as someone independant, of one being ffoled into such emotively prejudiced statements? Robert | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 576 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: On the issue of prejudice (I do think it an issue rater than just a topic) the following recent article I found interesting: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635165620,00.html The quotes from Mr Morrison should be noted. Robert | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 154 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Hi Joesdad Do the Mormons decorate xmas trees, light up their houses, and tell stories about Santa Claus like other christians? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 239 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Robert, on the issue of prejudice. Are you offering sites to show that mormons care for other people other than there own? Or is this to show a caring comment from a Mormon? I am not sure what you are trying to show me. Do I have to show sites of christian churches helping others. My church and the groups I work with help youths and homeless people regardless of race or religion. History of your church says "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 1:30); all other churches are "wrong", all their creeds an "abomination", and all who profess them are "corrupt" (Joseph Smith, History 1:19, Pearl of Great Price). One either belongs to "the church of the Lamb of God" or to "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith taught that everybody but Mormons will be damned (History of the Church 3:28)." Robert, Regarding; “Those who do leave, often lose their family, friends and other social contacts within the Mormon community - anything like this would be down to the persons and their falily's individual decisions, the Church in NO WAY encourages or condones such a reaction. Your church may not encourage or condone it, it is your church that places individuals in such positions and the results are then a product of your church. Do we need to go to sites and see replies from ex mormons. Iask how come the numbers are so high showing such things occur in cults like the JW's? All cults are like this. Does Steel’s letter and post reflect such? Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 240 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Robert, brainwashing has different levels as you I am sure would be aware. The term brainwashing can seem an extreme label. Seeing we are always taking the privilege of webspace when we use this site I thought best to post there descriptions. “FACTNet, "mind control" refers to all coercive psychological systems, such as brainwashing, thought reform, and coercive persuasion. Mind control is the shaping of a person's attitudes, beliefs, and personality without the person's knowledge or consent. Mind control employs deceptive and surreptitious manipulation, usually in a group setting, for the financial or political profit of the manipulator. Mind control works by gradually exerting increasing control over individuals through a variety techniques, such as excessive repetition of routine activities, intense humiliation, or sleep deprivation. As used by FACTNet, "cult" refers to a destructive group which uses mind control to deceivingly influence its members. It has become fairly standard to use this term for any organization or group which uses mind control on its members. Cults are not necessarily religious. A cult may form around any theme, such as a political, racial, psychotherapeutic, or even athletic agenda. FACTNet, along with most cult experts today, determines whether or not a group is cultic strictly by the mind control tactics the group uses, not by the group's beliefs. Here are comments relating to members leaving and pressures placed upon members of cults. “It is very hard for former members, especially high level and long term members, to admit they have been thoroughly deceived and speak up about what they know. The group has rocked and tranced them into believing that they are totally and completely responsible for everything that happens to them and the group is never responsible. The result is victims tricked into believing they were completely responsible for their decision to get into Scientology so they blame themselves. Sometimes they are completely unable to conceive that they have been had. They might deny they have been fooled, because that would make them a tremendous fool on the most major decisions they had made to this point made in their lives, or they deny that they have been hurt because it's too hard to face that pain. To mistrust one's own major decisions and perceptions of reality is frighteningly close to that ultimate terror: insanity. Without the information which was unavailable to them in the cult and professional counseling, this level of denial of past reality is difficult to overcome. The trap is not an accident. Along with other such tactics, cults deliberately inculcate self-protecting, secrecy insuring, and liability redirecting catch-22 denial mechanisms into their members. The organization is always right, the individual always wrong and responsible, bad things happen to those who break the code of silence, etc.” In reply to your question or challenge to me re proving you being brainwashed. It is easy for me to imply and for us to argue re post against repost. The only way to find the truth would be for you to speak to a number of ex members from your church and other cults, for only when you are deprogrammed will you realize what had happened to you. You will always be in total denial until such time. I ask you this as an example. Do you believe this statement from JS to be true, given all other evidence and statements that tell a different story. ""I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." Now if this were a lie then you would then have to admit that JS may have lied about other things, once a liar always a liar, especially after speaking directly to god and jesus, so it is of interest to me to see what your answer is to this. Nulla | ||
| franklin (franklin) Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 1254 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
God was NOT once a man! Man can NOT become a god! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 577 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Yaakov: Yep, in fact in my home it has become a tradition for ours to go up on my wife's birthday - 18th Nov. (I know, far too early!!) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 580 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: Come on, you want me to accept that I am being manipulated by my Church, the attempt to manipulate me? You know full well that I will want to know the background of the quote you say is from JS before I comment, as you also know full well to comment otherwise would be foolhardy and giving way to you manipulation. I take it that you have spoken to several deprogrammed members of my Church and other cults, and are purposely witholding from me information that will help me become deprogrammed in an attempt to further brainwash or manipulate me? It is ammusing that you are blind to the fact you argue in a way that is in fact more along the lines of the "brainwashing" you calim I have been subject to than anything i have ever heard happen within the Church. I know for a fact that my return to the Church after being excommunicated was not due to pressure form the Church or any member of it, I had been a member for a long time by then, and had the choice of walking away and I was clear in my mind that the choice existed. now you will claim, with no knowledge of me or any facts surrounding the matter, that i only re-joined the Church becaus I was brainwashed or could not walk away. Well I know for a fact that it was totally 100% my choice, infortunately you cannot cope with that as you have convinced yourself that such a position cannot exist. Therefore does your position not better fit the description of "brainwashing" than mine? Robert BTW, I'm in hospital tomorrow, so you won't hear from me again until I'm back to work. Also, the references to your manipulation is made partly tongue in cheek. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 241 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Robert, good luck with your operation, I hope its a success and relieves the suffering of that debilitating illness. Merry Xmas if your health delays your return. Nulla (Message edited by nulla on December 05, 2005) | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 81.183.152.186 |
Robert, You are in our prayers. EGK | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 172 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
November 18th!! That is much earlier than I expected Joesdad. I always thought yall waited until after Thanksgiving to put up all the decorations. It sounds to me that I wouldn't be able to distinguish your house from any other Christians' house. Do you have anything on display that would enable to a knowledgeable person to say "Aha! A Mormon must live here."? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 53 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Yeah he hangs a seer stone in his doorway,& if you step up to it he may have to kiss you yaakov. Just kidding  I never new my mormon family to have anything on display that would emphasize they were mormon. Merry Christmas to All, Yes the Cross is offensive to some , but not to me. Steel Jude 3 | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 195 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 81.183.153.41 |
I had a Mormon colleague who had displayed in his apartment a certificate stating that he and his wife were married for time and eternity. EGK | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Merry Xmas to all the Mormon Thread Visitors.. a special G'day from down under to Vivian, Steel, EGK, Yaakov, Franklin and Joesdad... If you do take an occasional peek.. Solopilot included. Have a happy safe time and remember to be kind towards your fellow man, especially those less fortunate. Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1238 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.42.213 |
Merry Christmas to all! Joesdad, I pray that your recovery is quick and complete. As a mother, I think of Mary; what she must have felt as she looked into the eyes of God, to touch His face, and cradled him in her arms. Let us love our children as she and Joseph loved Him, and love one another as the Father loves us. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 81.183.152.252 |
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukka! I pray that Joesdad is healing well. Is Solopilot still around? With prayers, EGK | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Hello all ,hope all were spirit filled for the holidays, I got to witness to my father , as he was down for Christmas. He gave me a message from my sister that we need not talk theology,because i could never change her. I said dad i used to say the same thing to my wife, but my wife did not change me , the Holy Spirit did. Well what gift does my sister give me for Christmas? A copy of Betty J. Eadie's Book "Ebraced By The Light". I had already read this Book a couple of years ago. It is supposedly about her near death experience. My sister writes " Other than the scriptures,this book profoundly changed my life with respect to the hearafter. I was afraid to read it , because of all i have come to believe. To my knowledge, Betty J Eadie is not affiliated with any denomination, or wasn't at the time she wrote this book." ** Actually Eadie was an inactive MORMON at the time she wrote this Book. We as Christians, must Judge her book against the Scriptures. In so doing , it does not hold up. In researching her book and her, Her claim is she died while on the operating table and was dead for Five hours. When ask for proof of this , Eadie has NEVER Been willing to provide any Medical Proof from Records that she was ever declared clinically dead. Although her book gives a good feel, it is nothing more than fiction. Read The Christian Review. http://www.equip.org/free/DE305.htm Of course this give me an opertunity to dialog with my sister.. Pray I sing in her hears. God Bless , Steel Jude 3 | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Steel, would pointing your sister to that site be talking theology? Better still if you get the chance to talk to her. I hope and pray for you that you are able to have a discussion with her. No need to mention to you the strength of Gods true word, especially when coming from a religious person as yourself. As you are fully aware that to put down in any way the lds will have her run off in denial. The true words of the holy bible will shine through.. What always seems to get me in, is that in reading the likes of the article you refered to I think of myself as a christian, no denomination, just christian. It is then I always see that to be mormom cannot be christian and I find it difficult to make sense of them using the bible on their terms and nobody (christian) or no other belief system agrees with them. (again christian) I think the header and the intro say it all. "A Christian Response to "Embraced by the Light" "Betty Eadie’s surprise bestseller, Embraced by the Light, has triggered a tremendous interest in near-death experiences (NDEs). Eadie claims to have died and encountered Jesus Christ along with other spiritual wonders. While some Christians have appreciated her account, Eadie’s story dissolves under close scrutiny. Although she uses biblical language and dedicates her book to "my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," she denies biblical orthodoxy — such as the Trinity, the reality of hell, and salvation by faith alone — throughout the book. Her world view is an odd mixture of Mormon and New Age thought. Tragically, her false ideas contributed to the suicide of a young woman named Allison." Nulla (Message edited by nulla on January 03, 2006) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 60 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
While re-reading Eadie's book , i was able to mark quite a few Qoutes , sine I now have my own copy. Pg 42. In reference to Jesus "I knew I had known him from the beginning, from long before my earth life, because my spirit remembered him." Steel: Sound Familiar pg. 44 "I understood that he was the son of GOD,though he himself was also a GOD." Steel: She make Jesus A God, Sound Familiar? "Things were coming back to me from long before my earth life, things that had been purposely blocked from me by a "VEIL of Forgetfulness" at my birth." Steel: "VEIL OF FORGETFULNESS" Strictly a Mormon term, saying our memory was veiled after we obtained bodies. Pg.45 "I wanted to know why there were so many churches in the world , why didn't GOD give us only one Church, one pure religion?" Steel: He Did, Some people just don't realize it. Jesus said he was the Church ie, His Body and all those who believed in him, would become a part of HIS BODY(CHURCH). She was Told: ALL RELIGIONSupon the earth are necessary because there are people who need what they teach." Steel: Jesus Told her This? Yet he tells us in the Bible that through HIM is the only way. Puzzling??????? Pg.47 " I understood, to my suprise, that Jesus was a separate being from GOD,with his OWN DIVINE PURPOSE & I knew that GOD was our mutual Father." Steel: Jesus is a separate being but the same GOD. She must of been in a hase from her first (NDE)when she was taught by protestant churches, because i have never been taught such. " My protestant upbringing taught me that GOD the Father and Jesus Christ were one being." Steel: Again she doesn't have a clue to protestant faith ,she must of been sleeping in church. "GOD in THREE PERSON, BLESSED TRINITY. To hard for her to Understand! " Each spirit who was to come to the earth assisted in planning the conditions on earth, including the laws of mortality which would govern us." Steel: Jesus & God Needed all those pre-exsistent spirits to help with creation? I guess the OLD & New Testaments were WRONG. Lets just go ahead an throw them Out cause Eadie's got that first hand account. pg.48 "It was important that I understand that we ALL ASSISTEDin creating our conditions here. Steel: Hey I'm a creator & boy we work so hard to destroy what we have created. GOD is Pleased with our work I'm Sure. Just some thoughts. More to come, Steel Jude 3 | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1295 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.43.201 |
I'm afraid people think there will be no judgment. Do they think that lying to men is not lying to God? I don't understand it. I don't have an answer for how to approach your sister. I think you should just continue setting a good example and let her know you're not missing anything. | ||
| planetkram (planetkram) New member Username: planetkram Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.205.46.16 |
sometimes people are just crazy - you dont have to blame it on MORMONISM as convenient as it may be. That letter written to your dad from your sister was just weird. - so again i say, just because you family is weird, it doesnt mean they will suddenly be sane after they hypothetically leave the church. - My money is on your family still being nutty. - church or no church. for the record, I'm LDS and all you guys are pretty laughable with your whining and complaining of cults mind control crap. LDS is a great church that focuses on Christ-first and fore-most, strength of family (sorry not all families are normal), and being better human beings through our lives. - I dont care where you're from, those things can't be criticized. Good luck with your messed up families and your mental illnesses. (Message edited by planetkram on January 10, 2006) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 581 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
PK: is that Mark? | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 81.182.95.215 |
Hi Joesdad, Welcome back to the board and, hopefully, to full health. BTW Do you or anyone else know what happened to Solopilot? EGK | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 64 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
SO PLANETKRAM,BECAUSE MY SISTER WRITES A WEIRD LETTER THAT MAKES THE WHOLE FAMILY WIERD. JOESDAD DO YOU KNOW THIS PERSON? CAN YOU HELP HIM WITH HIS lOGIC. i DIDN'T SEE YOU REFUTE ANY THING SHE SAID. i JUST LOVE IT WHEN MORMONS COME ON HERE AND SAY A WHOLE LOT (OF NOTHING). AT LEAST JOESDAD GIVES IT A RESONABLE TRY & USES GOOD DIALOG. PLANETKRAM JUST PASSES JUDGEMENT AND REFUTES NOTHING. HE MUST BE A YOUNG MORMON. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 271 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Planetkram preaches about all the goodness of being a mormon yet he chooses to pass judgement upon others, showing no sympathy or compassion which on the otherhand he tries to promote the same through being a member of the LDS. I hope and pray that your hypocrisy Platkram may be changed through the true teachings of Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 489 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.69.137.21 |
got some new e-mails from sister,will share soon,hope everybody is doing well. lots going on around here with the new baby and construction. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 569 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Do you respect your sister?, is she aware of the contempt that you have for what she thinks (I assume) are words she shares with you and you alone? If that is not how you feel about her, then why such glee in sharing what she says knowing it will be ridiculed? She is not here to defend herself! - I find your attitude embarassing. Robert | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 2178 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.68.4.155 |
steel, If we Christians can offer any words of comfort in dealing with your sister, or just an ear, I am always willing. It isn't as if you are publishing your sister's name or placing this in her local paper. There is nothing to feel embarassed about. I don't think she is 'nutty'. She's one of many mormons who think they have found their answers, while being unaware of God's grace. Being a good person does not, I repeat, does not make one a follower of Christ. Christ is the answer, not our works. While the Holy Spirit will work through us, and we will receive a reward, a crown; it is Jesus' sacrifice as the ONLY begotten Son of God that justifies our salvation before God, not what we do. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 490 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joesd,I respect my sister, Just not the doctrine she is involved in. If in any way i can help someone to realize the false system she or they are involved in , i will do so. Joe I LOVE MY SISTER!!! I post certain comments from her because it shows the mormon thought process from a personal aspect that i'm willing to share. There are many who read these boards that will realize the context of what i do. I Love Mormons, my dad , two sisters, cousins etc., but if they make statements that I think have no biblical proof, i will defend against it, as nulla said I don't post her name. I think it's good sometimes to see how family members dialog when they have diffrent religious beliefs. I will contend for the souls that I think are Lost, Sorry but thats the kind of LOVE I have For my family, & if other here can help me point out the inaccuracy of her words , so be it. If i didn't Love her ,I could just as easily close her out ,as she did me for over a year. If my sister maintains her faith in JOE's gospel so be it,but untill the day I pass , she will her the gospel of Christ from Me, every chance I get. Robert I LOVE You TOO, and i want you to know that Jesus has Given You a free gift as well. Man just think about it! FREE<free>FREE every which way you look. God Bless Steel Jude 3 | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Steel I love your Free Free line ... great stuff God Bless. Its great to be able to openly say that we as christians love all mankind and that the REAL Jesus of the Holy Bible is there with his free gift. My family who have left the LDS and have trouble relating with their immediate family of mormons have now found Jesus again through the Holy Bible.They are trying to have a loving family wishing to include the mormons and are willing to not talk religion, but are not yet making any inroads. They were at first reluctant to go back to the bible and wanted to have nothing to do with religion, for they thought that this would keep their family even further away, but through the strength of Jesus they have now returned to Christianity and are LOVING IT. Through the grace of God one of my family who was a mormon did happen to find the truth in the bible and was the intitial cause for the others to fall out by exposing the false doctrine. So though I still have the situation going on for the mormons not talking to anyone at least the ex mormons picked up on the FREE GIFT OFFER. God Bless you Steel I hope and pray for your sister whom you love very dearly. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 572 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steel: Noted, with respect! |
