Keep the tongue

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post   Start New Thread

Author Message   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 65 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 1:10 am:        Pro 12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, But those who deal truthfully are his delight. (Message edited by truth hunter on November 26, 2005)   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:50 am:        Pro 12:17 He who speaks truth declares righteousness, But a false witness, deceit. (Message edited by truth hunter on November 26, 2005)   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 10:56 am:        Pro 13:5 A righteous man hates lying. But a wicked man is loathsome and comes to shame.   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 1:46 pm:        Matt 23:28 "Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 361 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 7:35 pm:        Truth_Hunter, I just returned from spending a wonderful afternoon at the 'Fair' and I must say that as I listened to the beautiful and Divinely Inspired music I felt a few tears trickle down my cheeks. The cause of those tears? the knowledge that you, and a very small handful of others, are attacking the beautiful, radiant people before me, singing and playing their instruments. I must say that right now I am angrier and more disgusted with you and your foul friends than I have ever been. You may say I am 'un-Godly' for feeling outrage and anger toward you. Problem is, when I see my little brother's and sister's, sincerely singing their hearts out about how much they love Jesus, and then I remember that you have judged them as "hypocrites" and "lawless" I become very angry with the lying spirit that is speaking out of your mouth. It has been a while since I have taken the time to visit with some of my old friends at HH. As I sit here writing this and remembering those conversations, I am struck once again by how much I love these people. Actually, I shouldn't call them 'people'. I should call them Saints, because that is what they are. They are some of those the Bible speaks of when it says this; 32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. The people I saw and spoke with today, those are people this fallen and degenerate world is not worthy of. And yet you TH, and others, have come along and maligned them, mocked them, falsely accused them, railed against them, made fun of them and essentially called them demons (false prophets). Yes, I am exceedingly angry with you, and not without cause. I heard a father, who has recently lost one of his children in a tragic accident, being asked how his family was doing. I don't believe the man making the inquiry had any knowledge of the accident, but what touched me was the father's instantanious response. He said "All of my family is doing great!" I will always remember the ear-to-ear smile on his face when he said that. I was good friends with the son this man had lost. He was my age and a strong, vibrant young man when he went home to be with Jesus. The sad thing is, according to Old_watchman's and your analysis, this young man is not with Jesus because he became a Christian at HH, NOT before. According to you, he believed in a hypocritical and lawless expression of Jesus. Are you, TH, willing to look that father in the face and tell him you don't believe his son is with Jesus???? If not, then you must immediately retract every word you have said on this web site. If you do not retract your poisonous words, then you and those you have cast your lot in with are a modern day Inquisition. May God have mercy on your souls... In closing, I just want to say this. Either the members of HH are the, hands down, absolute, best actors on the face of this earth....or you, TH and company, are all LIARS!!!!!! Again, may a merciful God have Mercy upon you, for I fear for you.   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 9:12 pm:        Dowen, I can only imagine how angry you must be with me, I remember those same feelings towards others who spoke against Homestead, I was led astray by the same façade that you are falling for. Power hungry men, hiding behind the innocent faces of the wonderful children, simple living and good food. I have said many times I love ALL the people in Homestead, but I hate what their doctrine does to people. I don’t know how you can say that I said they’re ALL hypocrites, if I did please reference it and I will remove it. I assure you that you are putting words in my mouth, to try and discredit me, being as your disgust for me is evident. I have never attempted to judge the people of Homesteads salvation, only their doctrine. You say that I have called them Demons? I have said there are some false prophets yes, and I gave reason and example, not just a blanket statement. Dowen, you can be as angry with me as you want, it won’t change what I saw and experienced. You can rant and rail, you can twist, misquote me all you want to try and distract from the truth. You can try to force me to judge the souls of the members of HH, but I won’t.   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 362 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 6:12 pm:        I have struggled all day in trying to decide how to respond to "Truth"_Hunter. I wrote him a firey epistle in my mind as I worked today, but the more I prayed about it, the more I was convinced that I should write the following... I have noticed that Jeremy's posts have become more and more dis-combobulated, and while that cheers me, it also worries me. A dog in a corner will bite, and a desperate man will commit actions (in this case write words) that will haunt him forever. I have a feeling that many of Jeremy's words on this forum will come back and haunt him. In fact, I pray they already do. I pray the ghosts of people who loved him in the past haunt him daily. I pray that when he lies down to sleep his dreams are haunted by the spectres of the people he calls "power hungry" and "hypocrites", kneeling and praying for him. I pray that when he looks into the eyes of his children and tells them he loves them, he will remember his pastor at HH doing the same to him. I pray that every time he works on one of his vehicles he will be haunted by the memory of his days working in the HH Maintenance shop. He may say he hated it and had "allergic reactions to using the parts cleaner" and blah blah blah, but I know better... I remember well working at that shop alongside him and his former boss... I remember him smiling and joking with us younger boys... I remember him working on some car component and asking me to help... I remember looking up to him and thinking how cool it was to work with him and how I wanted to be in his circle of friends... I remember the way his/our boss treated us, always with love and compassion... I remember a Jeremy Crow that ALL of my friends looked up to, respected, and wanted to be friends with... I remember a Jeremy that, when my family was first visiting HH, told me hair-raising tales of wild adventures, and I remember how much I loved them... Later on, when Jeremy's dad was my dad's pastor, I remember the Jeremy that loved Jesus, and encouraged me and my friends to also love Jesus... I remember the Jeremy that would repremand us younger boys if our play got out of hand or our conversations went down the wrong paths... I remember the Jeremy that played his guitar and led in worship at Friday night meetings... I remeber the Jeremy that was happy at his sister's wedding(although he denies it now)... I remember the Jeremy that prayed for me as I got older... and I remember he was sincere... I remember the Jeremy that my dad told me to look up to and respect... I could go on forever, but I think the reader will get my point. I pray that the ghosts of all these memories will rise like mists before Jeremy's eyes, and then, fall as tears of repentence on his cheeks when he realizes that he is persecuting his Maker by saying the things he has said on this board. You are a very gifted man Jeremy, why do you abuse the gifts God has given you by attacking His Children? You are breaking the heart of you Saviour, and hurting people who love you. I beg you, please stop your campaign of bitterness and rage against those who have loved you for so many years! Think of your family still at HH. Respect them! Love them! Treat them how you would like to be treated! Work on building up your relationship with them, not tearing it down! In the end, please remember this one last thing. Heaven is ONE place. EVERYONE who DAILY takes up his/her cross and follows Jesus WILL meet in Heaven and what a glorious day that will be! Please, please don't risk missing that day by letting your bitterness and self-rightousness toward HH get in the way. I know I have directed some harsh words of criticsm at you, and I still may in the future, but I want you to know that even while you are attacking my family and people I love, I LOVE YOU JEREMY! The people at HH that you have slandered, LOVE YOU! And more importantly than ALL that, JESUS LOVES YOU! Please stop attacking all the people who love you the most!   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 9:05 pm:        Daniel I love you as well. I am sorry if you feel my posts have become discombobulated. I will take this into consideration. But as far as being backed into a corner, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know why you feel compelled to take this new approach towards me. Tear me down again and again then praise my past behavior and the "old" Jeremy. I don't know what to say Daniel, you seem to have a new attitude each day. I don't say this to belittle you, it just seems you're,,,, unstable? I don't know. Daniel, you are in a unique place, you are defending HH and it has put them in a bind. They won't speak for themselves on this board, so they need a spokes person, and that would be you. They know full well if they treated you like I say is the normal for those of us who have left Homestead at the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit, then you wouldn't defend them. Daniel, you claim that I should be working on my relationship with my family in Homestead instead of attacking them. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but every time I reached out a hand of friendship I was told I was going to hell, or that my wife looked like a whore, and would I please stop calling as we had nothing to talk about unless it was to find repentance and once again come under the authority of Homestead leadership. I was told the only people that could talk to me was my pastors, and my sister , and then only if the purpose of the conversation was to bring me back into the Fellowship. Daniel I have family who have been gone from the Fellowship, 10+ years walking on pins and needles in order to keep a relationship with those still there. Needless to say, they are no closer to having an open relationship with their own family members than, I did the day I left HH. Daniel they will NEVER accept that I left to follow God. Daniel, I am an optimist I always try to find the good in anything, I always try to make things work, and believe the best about people. I'm sure you think that is ridiculous being as I have lost all hope and faith that Homestead Doctrine can or will be salvaged. The first time I left HH was four years ago, I believed if I changed my attitude from fear and intimidation, to actively seeking ways to to find answers I would find some way to reconcile my differences with HH. Two years later I left for good realizing that I would never be free to follow my conscience and the only way to reconcile was to let them cover my head. Even though I was immediately cut off from all contact, I held on to the hope that as you say, I could have a relationship with them. If you call a relationship bowing to their every whim, my wife not even being allowed to go to her own parents house! Now thats messed up if you ask me. My wife found out that she couldn't go to her parents when she dropped by one day to see her Grandmother who was visiting from out of state. Her dad called later, and accused her of coming by to talk one of her sisters out of being baptized. When my wife denied it he screamed at her until she just handed me the phone. Is that love Daniel ? He told her he could not believe her because she had broken her covenant with God. He told her he would not listen to what she had to say, she could only listen to him being as he had the word of God for her. Daniel your family has not treated you this way, be thankful. I miss my sister more than you know. She was my best friend, I would die for her any day, I would go to just about any length to protect her. I guess in a way you could say she is the driving force that keeps me motivated and unrelenting in my crusade to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves in HH. I know she loves me too, I weep when I think we're torn apart. I'm sure she is in pain for the moment, but it came to a point where I had to make a decision, was I going to face a life of pain and tears as she came to realize I would never return to HH, or would I take a stand against the very evil that was keeping us and so many other families torn apart. I decided I would not let evil rule without opposition. And after much prayer, I felt the Lord lead me to take a position against false doctrine and defend His true church, those who follow Him. I hope and pray that in the midst of the fray, the light will break through and all of you will realize that I'm not out for blood, and that I am not motivated by anger and bitterness, but love. A Love so strong that I am willing to risk loosing my relationship forever here on earth with those I love most for a sliver of a hope that we will once again be united in love serving our true Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 363 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 9:58 am:        "I don't say this to belittle you, it just seems you're,,,, unstable? I don't know." Haahah, that was a good one! I wasn't "unstable" when I was "tearing you down", but now I am....interesting. "Daniel, you are in a unique place, you are defending HH and it has put them in a bind. They won't speak for themselves on this board, so they need a spokes person, and that would be you." First of all, I pray I have not put HH in a bind, and judging from conversations with HH leaders, they don't feel like I have put them in a bind...don't know where you were going with that one. Now as to the "spokesperson" comment, I see what you are trying to do here. If you can convince yourself and others that I am an HH "spokesman" or representative, then your ultimate goal of tearing down HH becomes much easier. I am much easier to attack than HH. I am a kid simply writing what I feel God lay on my heart, I know I let my emotions get in the way sometimes and I know I let words fly at times that I wish I had toned down a bit. But if you can make me a representative of HH, then you can expoit those indescretions and make HH look bad. The best word I could find that describes what you are trying to do is "sleazy". "They know full well if they treated you like I say is the normal for those of us who have left Homestead at the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit, then you wouldn't defend them." Simply untrue. Please stop projecting your supposed experiences on me! I am not sure what you think is HH's "normal" way of treating people, but I can assure you that my relationship with the folks at HH has gone through some rough patches! I have received the phone calls before the Fairs, asking me not to show up. I have had my father ask me not to show up at his home unannounced. I have seen HH members at the local Wal-Mart quickly turn their carts down an aisle to avoid having to speak to me. I simply don't know what you are talking about here Jeremy... "you claim that I should be working on my relationship with my family in Homestead instead of attacking them. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but every time I reached out a hand of friendship I was told I was going to hell, or that my wife looked like a whore, and would I please stop calling as we had nothing to talk about unless it was to find repentance..." Oh man, I don't know where to start here...can I say 'discombobulated'??? Um, how is what you have done here in FACTnet "reaching out in friendship"? How is you telling HH they are going to hell somehow 'ok', but heaven forbid they tell you that...? As far as the "whore" issue, I know exactly where you are coming from, I've been on the receiving end of that conversation myself. (one more way I have NOT been treated differently) The thing is, I chose to forgive and NOT hold it against them... It's really not that hard Jeremy. "Daniel I have family who have been gone from the Fellowship, 10+ years walking on pins and needles in order to keep a relationship with those still there." Well, I feel sorry for them. There really is no need for them to walk on pins and needles. I know I don't... (and honestly, I don't know anyone who does) I dare say you are inventing yet another 'sin' to pin on HH. "Needless to say, they are no closer to having an open relationship with their own family members than, I did the day I left HH." Yaaaawn. Same tired old worn out rhetoric. I'm a victim, poor poooooor me...booo hooo, blubber blubber. Seriously, how do you deal with the fact that my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc. etc. (on both sides of the family) have very good relationships with my folks? "Daniel they will NEVER accept that I left to follow God." Sure they will! The key is you must also let THEM follow God how they see fit! I think you'd be surprised at the results... "Daniel, I am an optimist I always try to find the good in anything, I always try to make things work, and believe the best about people. I'm sure you think that is ridiculous being as I have lost all hope and faith that Homestead Doctrine can or will be salvaged." Ummm, I think 'discombobulated' works here also... The rest of your post is just more "poor poor pitiful me" "I'm a victim, my family's all victims" yada yada yada. Sorry, it just doesn't work for me. I know better and I am doing my best to live a life and have meaningful relationships that show by example that your rhetoric is false. Lastly, you speak of having "love" for the folks at HH. All I can say is you sure don't show them much love on this website... May God have Mercy on you.   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:13 am:        What is forgiveness? I believe forgiveness is not to forget, for if we forget we invite tragedy to strike once again, we must remember, warn and teach others where we faced great danger. Forgiveness I believe brings healing to a wound but still a scar remains as a reminder. Sometimes its worse than a scar maybe a lost limb. If you woke up everyday without a leg, I am sure you would remember how it happened and avoid the circumstances that brought the tragedy about in the first place. Let me give you an analogy, if you were driving with your best friend and he/she were drunk, had a wreck and you ended up loosing your leg. As soon as you heel up the same friend invites you out drinking. Would you go? Of course not. You know he will once again be driving drunk, and he will be taking a group of young people out, would you warn them ? He's still your best friend, you love him, but he's dangerous. Daniel I am like the guy who lost his leg, I cannot forget. I have forgiven them, but they can be dangerous. I do not believe forgiveness is necessarily reconciliation, I believe I can forgive and love them without accepting their doctrine of a man as God. I do not believe forgiveness whitewashes wrong doing just to keep the peace. I believe forgiveness takes offenses seriously and does not pass them off as inconsequential, if harm will come to others. Daniel I forgive them for everything the leadership has done, I would forgive them 7 million times. But not once have they ever asked for it pertaining to a specific wrong, they have never admitted that they did anything wrong. Not once. They have only said, "If we ever did anything to hurt you we're sorry, but you only got hurt because you weren't in submission". It is as if the drunk driver said I'm sorry you got hurt, and I'm also sorry I've hurt twenty people since you, but its your fault, you keep letting me do it . Daniel, I've made up my mind I am going to do whatever I can to stop the "drunk driving" maybe you haven't lost an arm or leg. But I have and I know dozens of others who have as well. And I think you would agree that we would all rather loose a limb than our family.   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 2:08 pm:        Dowen, You say....... As far as the "whore" issue, I know exactly where you are coming from, I've been on the receiving end of that conversation myself. (one more way I have NOT been treated differently) The thing is, I chose to forgive and NOT hold it against them... It's really not that hard Jeremy. Apparently you and Jeremy have the same problem. Neither one of your wives are willing to submit to the dress code of HH. HH sisters never wear pants, no make-up, dresses at least four inches below the knee, no sleeve-less blouses, no jewelry including wedding rings, no ankle socks (knee socks are OK, panty hose are OK or no socks at all is OK; ankle socks are forbidden because ankle socks could cause a brother to be drawn to the ankle in a sexual way). No bright colors that would draw undo attention to themselves and finally the hair must remain un-cut from the time they make their covenant commitment or as soon as they are informed of the temple pattern for women’s hair. That was the way it was when I left maybe some things have been added since then. I doubt it but maybe they have relaxed the rules since I was there. My question for you Dowen is did the laws change at HH? If your dad or others in HH said your wife looks like a whore you already knew they did not mean she was being being unfaithful to you with other men. I assume your wife still wears pants, jewelry, make-up and cuts her hair on occasion so have they changed their minds on this subject?. You said you have forgiven HH for saying your wife looks like a whore, in fact you said "The thing is, I chose to forgive and NOT hold it against them... It's really not that hard Jeremy." How do you deal with the fact their saying your wife looks like a whore was based on her not conforming to the laws of HH for women? The laws in HH have not changed and if your wife did not change then what is it? Maybe a don’t ask don‘t tell? Again did they changed their minds and now say it is more about character not about outward appearance . Sort of like when God telling Samuel the reason he (Samuel) did not think David was God's pick for king was because he was looking on the outside and not David’s heart. Just curious. Under Grace   just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 668 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.239.204.114 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 2:19 pm:        What does a whore look like?   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 364 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 2:59 pm:        I had a feeling this would happen... Out of every point I made, ya'll just had to jump on this one. Makes me wonder where your minds are... Anyway, UG, stop your assumptions ok? The comment that was made to me had NOTHING to do with the "HH laws" (whatever that means) ... how silly. Get a life buddy! Dowen   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 87 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 4:16 pm:        Dowen, You said..."NOTHING to do with the "HH laws" (whatever that means) ... how silly. Get a life buddy!" It has everything to do with HH laws. GK and or your dad does do not believe your wife or Jeremy's wife are whores. That is not the issue, a godly woman, covenant woman conforms to laws set out by HH. Those outside of covenant are suspect at best. I noticed you do not deny that the laws for HH women I mentioned are still in place. You do not deny that your wife does not conform to those laws. For you to say the whore comment has...."NOTHING to do with the "HH laws" (whatever that means) ..." Is ingenious. You know exactly what it means and what I am talking about. That is precisely where the comment came from. What! Do you guys think that your wives were the only ones HH has made this comment over? It has happened several times. I heard fellow HH members say the same thing over a former sister because they saw her wearing slacks at Wal-Mart. They said she looked liked a whore precisely because they were wearing slacks. That happened with jewelry as well. One woman was disassociated because she wore some earrings to her sons wedding in another state. It is not silly stuff. Funny maybe if were not so sad. A couple left HH and after a while put their kids in school (Christian school but not home school). The comment was made they hated their children because they were not taking the responsibility for their education. Ditto hospital over homebirth. It is nothing new. Don't kid yourself if your wife has not changed they may not keep bringing it up but pull back the covers and see if it is not still there. By the way thanks for calling me buddy I needed that, as far as getting a life I am working on that while trying to remain...... Under Grace   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 365 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 5:07 pm:        I realize this is a very serious forum, and there are many heavy issues being debated here, so please pardon my irreverence, but these last few posts have me rolling on the floor laughing. Here we have a grown man, TH, using the fact that somebody said his wife "dressed like a whore" as an excuse for his idiotic behaviour on this board. I want to yell in his ear, "You're not in High School anymore!!!!!!" "Grow up!!" I am sorry J. I tried to be sympathetic, I tried to tell you that I know what you went through. I tried to encourage you to 'forgive and forget'. But no, you believe they are "dangerous" and compare them to drunken drivers. It was an interesting analogy, but when I see the lengths you are going to to try and defend your defencless position I have to laugh. "I believe forgiveness is not to forget..." Man, I am soooooooo glad my Saviour doesn't believe that! When He forgives, He DOES forget....HALLELUJAH! God bless, DOwen Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right.} Laurens Van der Post. Food for thought... }   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 5:39 pm:        Dowen, let me put it to you this way. If I say I'm sorry that I wrote everything I have here on Factnet but left it on here, would you forgive me and welcome me with open arms? If the next day I began to write the same stuff would you forget it. Can you just forgive me for writing what I have here? Can you just let it go like you are asking me to do? If they are so righteous, just be thankful for the persecution. Aren't we supposed to count our persecution as a blessing? I know I do, the more you and real truth come against the truth, the nature of Homestead mind control is being revealed. I count it as a blessing the more you post against what I and UG and so many others have revealed. I have received so many emails from people thanking me for putting the truth out their for them to read, things they always felt the Holy Spirit warning them about, yet were blinded by the facade of Utopianism. All I can say is Daniel, "you've got your HH goggles on". I'm also sorry you feel the need to mock and call names. Your Friend Jeremy   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 2:30 am:        Dowen, Thanks for your post. It really does reveal where your coming from. You finally admit to some of the same treatment others have received and you laugh it off and try to make jokes. It is no joke to have someone you love and respect like your dad say hurtful, nasty and unwarranted for not conforming to a man-made dress code. You have not answered the question, Daniel. Has your wife changed and is now conforming to the laws of HH? Has HH changed the laws for women? Do they have the freedom to wear a pair of earrings to a Sunday or Friday meeting or say a wedding? Or is it not a problem anymore? How does that work? Everyone is so loving and understanding where you are. Could you and your wife join HH and she still have the freedom to dress like she does? One of the best debating techniques there is, is to skirt the issue. When one can not refute what is being said they just divert to another topic or pretend the topic at hand is so trivial it does not matter. One writer says it is like ignoring the white horse standing at the dinner table if you pretend it is not there maybe no one will notice. You know what I posted is true and you can not openly deny so you come back with sophomoric antidotes. Name calling like a little kid. Saying I am a young man writing what I feel only goes so far D. How about answering some questions. These issues are real. As I said having your dad say you look like a whore because you do not conform to a man-made dress code is not God. Telling you your wife looks like a whore because she does not conform to a man-made dress code is not God, (your wife was not the first one this was said about). Telling a sister in Christ (I say sister in Christ because you have told us many times that just because someone leaves HH that does not mean HH thinks that person is not saved) she looks like a whore because she does not conform to a man-made law like wearing pants to Wal-Mart is not God. Disassociating a sister from the church because she wore earrings to her sons wedding is not God. If it is God Daniel where does that put your wife now? You can call these things trivial all you want, but allot of people have been deeply hurt because HH has chosen to keep people under the law. Not the law of liberty in Christ. Not the freedom that Christ brings to overcome real sin. But demanding everyone conform to the man-made laws as mandated by HH and written by Blair Adams. The laws like the ones I mentioned in another post....“HH sisters never wear pants, no make-up, dresses at least four inches below the knee, no sleeve-less blouses, no jewelry including wedding rings, no ankle socks (knee socks are OK, panty hose are OK or no socks at all is OK; ankle socks are forbidden because ankle socks could cause a brother to be drawn to the ankle in a sexual way). No bright colors that would draw undo attention to themselves and finally the hair must remain un-cut from the time they make their covenant commitment or as soon as they are informed of the temple pattern for women’s hair. That was the way it was when I left maybe some things have been added since then. I doubt it but maybe they have relaxed the rules since I was there.” These are not Godly laws. They are man-made laws and traditions of men. Conforming to them will not make the women in HH true daughters of Sarah. Nor will not keeping them make sisters “look like whores”. So how about it Daniel, want to laugh this post off as “sophomoric“? If I am wrong then tell where I am wrong. If I am a “liar” show me where I lied. I will borrow a line from a posting friend this is the ”Absolute Real Truth 100%”. If you can refute this then do it. Don’t post up another diversion. May God Bless you and your wife and may we all find the only really safe place....... Under Grace   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 366 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 9:52 am:        All right "Grace", you've made me mad this time! I have posed questions to you that you have never answered, yet you have the nerve to demand I answer your petty little question! You get sillier everyday! Oh well, shall we dig into your convoluted mess of a post? I say we shall, and I will relish making mincemeat of your nonsense. "Thanks for your post. It really does reveal where your coming from. You finally admit to some of the same treatment others have received and you laugh it off and try to make jokes. It is no joke to have someone you love and respect like your dad say hurtful, nasty and unwarranted for not conforming to a man-made dress code." You said, "You finally admit to some of the same treatment others have received and you laugh it off and try to make jokes." Yes, I do admit I have had my feelings hurt at times, like most of ya'll have. Here is the difference 'twixt the two of us; You and your crowd use those hurt feelings as an excuse to turn around and hurt those who hurt you (ie. this board). I didn't "laugh off" or make jokes, at the time of ANY of the things that happened to me. Most of the experiences that I recorded above hurt very, very deeply and it did take some time for some to the wounds to heal over. This is the crux, or core, of this entire issue, HEALING. I refused to let those wounds I suffered to fester and become infected with bitterness, un-forgivness, self-rightousness etc. etc. I tried me darndest to let those wounds heal, and you know what? Miracle of miracles, irony of ironies, the things I learned AT HH were the very things that helped me to heal the fastest! The words of men like my former Pastor and my dad, those words were like a soothing balm to those wounds and hurt feelings. Personally, I believe the fact that I am able to laugh about those things now, is a testament to how well God has healed me...please quit trying to make the work of God look bad man! Then you said, "It is no joke to have someone you love and respect like your dad say hurtful, nasty and unwarranted for not conforming to a man-made dress code." Um, I don't know how many times I must tell you this. WHAT WAS TOLD TO ME HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A MAN-MADE DRESS CODE!!!!!!!!! Please accept this and move on to another issue! "You have not answered the question, Daniel. Has your wife changed and is now conforming to the laws of HH? Has HH changed the laws for women? Do they have the freedom to wear a pair of earrings to a Sunday or Friday meeting or say a wedding? Or is it not a problem anymore? How does that work? Everyone is so loving and understanding where you are. Could you and your wife join HH and she still have the freedom to dress like she does?" "You have not answered the question, Daniel. Has your wife changed and is now conforming to the laws of HH?" what business is it of yours what my lovely wife wears???? Whether she dresses like the HH sisters or not has absolutely nothing to do with you buddy...Get over it. Has HH changed the laws for women? How am I supposed to know? I have told you over and over I am not a member of HH. "Do they have the freedom to wear a pair of earrings to a Sunday or Friday meeting or say a wedding? Or is it not a problem anymore? How does that work?" Turn that question around, does your wife have the freedom to NOT wear a pair of earrings to a wedding etc. etc.? Everyone is so loving and understanding where you are. Are you mocking my good relationship with my family?? I pray not. "Could you and your wife join HH and she still have the freedom to dress like she does?" Why don't you turn this one around also. The real question is what is 'freedom'. Some say freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. To me, the sisters at HH are much freer than even my wife when it comes to how they dress. They have accomplished something that millions of people across this globe could only dream of, FREEDOM FROM FASHION. They have created their own "culture" in regard to their clothing, one that is NOT dictated by the run-ways in Paris. I say you should praising HH, not tearing them down and mocking them. (i.e 'HH laws', that is just ignorant) "One of the best debating techniques there is, is to skirt the issue. When one can not refute what is being said they just divert to another topic or pretend the topic at hand is so trivial it does not matter." Are you saying I am an excellent debater? (LOL) I am still waiting for your answer to my question about OW claiming that HH denies the Divinity of Christ... Untill you answer my question, you are preachin' to the choir. "Saying I am a young man writing what I feel only goes so far D. How about answering some questions. These issues are real." Answer my questions! Lead by example! "telling you your wife looks like a whore because she does not conform to a man-made dress code is not God..." That is NOT what was said, please stop putting words in peoples mouths! "Disassociating a sister from the church because she wore earrings to her sons wedding is not God. If it is God Daniel where does that put your wife now?" I do not know the details of what you speak of, but I do know that their were other issues coming into play. Just off the top of my head I can address one of them. Let's say that you are a Jehovah's Witness. JW's do not celebrate certain holidays. (I think it is JW's who do that) Well if you are a JW but insist on celebrating certain holidays, then the JW leadership would most certainly have the right to exert some type of descipline, first and foremost tell you that you cannot be identified with the rest of the JW's because you are blatently in rebellion to a tenant of their faith. Same goes for the lady wearing earrings while she was a member of HH. Honestly, I can't believe I am having to spell out this most elementary of principles.... If it is God Daniel where does that put your wife now?" Hush your arrogant accusations and insinuations. You have many other far more pressing issues to deal with than "where my wife is". "You can call these things trivial all you want, but allot of people have been deeply hurt because HH has chosen to keep people under the law. Not the law of liberty in Christ. Not the freedom that Christ brings to overcome real sin. But demanding everyone conform to the man-made laws as mandated by HH and written by _____ _____." This paragraph is simpy trash, I can't believe you are still touting these tired old lines. "...but allot of people have been deeply hurt because HH has chosen to keep people under the law. Come of man! HH chooses to keep people under the law???!!!?!?!?! Are you trying to say that folks are tied down and not allowed to leave????? Get a life bud! "Demanding everyone conform", come on! Anyone can leave at any time they choose! May God have mercy on you for so falsly accusing His children! If I remember correctly, a false witness is one of the things He HATES. You are a false witness, I fear for you. "May God Bless you and your wife and may we all find the only really safe place....... Under Grace " All I can say is I want nothing to do with your brand of Grace. It is the most unsafe place/doctrine I can imagine believing or trusting in.   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 10:44 am:        Dowen, I agree that you made mincemeat, but I'm not sure it was out of UG's post. I am going to ask you a non-trivial question, it is straight forward and I would appreciate a straight forward answer. Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life? In considering your answer think about this, Why do they believe a lifelong blood covenant to their group is necessary for a relationship with God. If you say it's not necessary, then why do they have it? If you say it is, that means all who have not committed to follow a man's guidance and discipline are not saved, or married to Christ. Left in the cold because they had no oil. Thats you, me, your Granddad and anybody else not in HH. You know asa well as I that they say there are other true church's but they just don't know who they are or where they are. Just some food for thought! Mull it over (Message edited by truth hunter on December 02, 2005)   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:02 am:        Blood Covenant that is so far out... Observing from various people I know and others I do not know that have e mailed me I think the greatest error of HH is to "brainwash" (if I may use the word) their people that they have so much superior knowledge of God that when something does happen and someone leaves they are like the JW...they are at a complete loss of what to do and where to go. The people as a whole at HH are good people it is the doctrine that forms a personality that most "cults" put into their people. "We are the only ones, we have more light, we have a direct revelation from God..." I know their mentality for I taught at a Mormon school for a long time and I also taught English to JW for many years...The pattern is all the same. The doctrine may be different but the pattern is always the same. I pray for them everyday and for everyone on this board for God to help us all.I have little time to post but I pray that those precious people at HH can see beyond the papers they sign and see the real Christ. No oneness people have thought I was wrong to write on this board except ART...I forgive him for HE DOES NOT KNOW LIKE I DO WHAT WE WENT THROUGH THERE...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:13 am:        Now for the record there are many groups oneness, dualist and trinity that ""brainwash" their people. I think we ought to be able to leave a church and not be branded that we are too proud to listen to God or whatever... God is final Judge and not some proof paper or some man made paper that will judge us on that day. When I taught the JW's I asked them why I would need their papers to to teach me God's word....they told me I could not understand the Bible without their help"...Ring a bell?   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 82 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:32 am:        why are you involved?   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:44 am:        To the extent that you entertain lies and deceit, you are held prisoner in a world cut off from reality. The truth you hide from yourself, prevents you from growth and fulfillment. The truth you hide from others, keeps you distantly apart. The truth shines a bright light on life, so you can clearly see the way to go. Success, achievement, happiness, joy, fellowship, and fulfillment, thrive in the warm and nurturing light of the truth. Honesty is the most direct path to wherever you want to go. Truth and honesty are often difficult, yet never more difficult, in the end, than deceit. To think otherwise, is to deceive even yourself. Hiding in the shadows of falsehood, makes it impossible to move forward.That the truth is moral and ethical, is no secret. Yet truth is also practical, efficient, and effective in every worthy pursuit, something well known by those who enjoy lasting success. Live in the bright, empowering light. Embrace the truth. It always serves you best. - Ralph Marston My overseers do not feel I have to prove anything here on this board for everyone knows what I believe and I do not have time to discuss doctrine on this board. Why discuss what everyone knows what you believe. MY friend neither YOU nor YOUR Bishops know what I do about HH....sorry to be so plain but you make such bold statements without even knowing what is the REAL TRUTH.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:50 am:        To the extent that you entertain lies and deceit, you are held prisoner in a world cut off from reality. The truth you hide from yourself, prevents you from growth and fulfillment. The truth you hide from others, keeps you distantly apart. The truth shines a bright light on life, so you can clearly see the way to go. Success, achievement, happiness, joy, fellowship, and fulfillment, thrive in the warm and nurturing light of the truth. Honesty is the most direct path to wherever you want to go. Truth and honesty are often difficult, yet never more difficult, in the end, than deceit. To think otherwise, is to deceive even yourself. Hiding in the shadows of falsehood, makes it impossible to move forward.That the truth is moral and ethical, is no secret. Yet truth is also practical, efficient, and effective in every worthy pursuit, something well known by those who enjoy lasting success. Live in the bright, empowering light. Embrace the truth. It always serves you best. - Ralph Marston My overseers see no need for me to discuss doctrine on this board since everyone here knows what I believe and who I am. I am so sorry you do not know the REAL TRUTH about HH. Neither did you go through what we did or have them in your church trying to change everything.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 85 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:53 am:        sorry for posting twice thought I lost the first one   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:59 am:        ART, it is as ridiculous for you to say I don't believe in religious freedom, as it would be for me to say you are an advocate of such groups as Jim Jones. Second, to claim I don't believe in forgiveness when its not asked for is you grasping for straws. You know thats not what I said. No claims of mine have been disproved, and will not be disproved no matter how many times YOU claim they are untrue. The law has its hands tied in some instances. If their weren't so many people held in silence by the fear instilled in them by Homestead doctrine, it would be very, very clear what the truth was. I would also like to add one other thing, I do not believe that the way some people dress, such as no make-up, jewelry or pants means they are following a doctrine of men. It can be a personal conviction, but to impose your personal feelings on others is where the line is crossed.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.93.104 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:07 pm:        Truth is ". . . that which is conformable to fact, honest, exact, correct, right, not false or erroneous, not counterfeit." Scripture tells us that Jesus is the perfect expression of truth (John 14:6). We can interpret that truth is not merely verbal expression but also sincerity and integrity of character." What I have expressed about HH is an absolute truth. I have not lied in any form to my knowledge. I will never recomend anyone oneness, trinity or whatever to go there. I found out the hard way what they represent...and what they want. I cannot say that I saw the interpretation of truth in them. I saw men on a power journey...I saw my mom being mistreated, I saw just the opposite from truth...shall I go on...no...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.123.72 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 9:53 am:        I do know how things are dealt with. I HAVE talked to them. When we see danger and we do not warn we are not FAITHFUL WATCHMEM. I have been know for over 40 years to be faithful. At one time when I first met them I too thought they were "almost" like us but the more I went there, the more they traveled with us, and when they came to live among us we were all SHOCKED that they are NOT like us and in fact if YOU think they are go live with them and you if you are a faithful oneness man of God you will join me in declaring to the whole Jesus Name movement that They have nothing in common with the message we preach. Yes, my brother every story has two sides. I am a very busy person yesterday was a special rest day (declared by my doctor) today one of my adopted missionary daughters is getting married so I do not have time to write but if you are encourageing me to write here I will but I am afraid it will be things you had rather me NOT write here.Why would I want to go see those men that reduced me to tears trying to force us in the name of God. You say and I quote, "Pro 11:29 He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool [shall be] servant to the wise of heart. My, my. I once stood in front of your mother, while she grasped my hands, tears welling in her soul, glistening like sad stars upon her pupils, as she pained for what is happening here... I promise you, your mother ( your household ) is troubled , and especially I imagine, by your actions here specifically. Why don't you call her and ask her? Yes, my brother I bleed for for they have made her believe, she too has cried on my sholder, my family are not troubled they are glad that we walked away. My children and husband HATED it there and saw through them. I wanted to believe it was true because of mom but I know she went there in a very troubled time in her life. For her that has no where to go it is heaven, for her that claims no special calling it is a refuge, a place to live, a place to keep busy but it is no place for a person that has a call on their life. My friend they were telling us how to run the work here, what to change, where to go and on and on... I could tell you some quite shocking things but I refrain. I am obeying the Bible and my elders exposing what is NOT RIGHT. What you saw only meets the eye...how many private meetings have you been in with them? Trying not going along with their plans and see what happens? I must go now people are waiting on me....if I have time I will return today... I have been know on two occasions to address our convention and tell our people I was wrong so I am not to high to say I am wrong...but about HH I am not wrong.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.19.134 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 2:54 pm:        I run your letter off so while my friend combing my hair for the weddding I will answer some of your questions and opinions. First I want to say I am so sorry my spiritual mom is involved all this mess. I love her more than you could ever know. BUT I know her better than you ever could. My mom is sincere. If I have made her cry I it was them that first made her cry on the phone to me... I am no talebearer, I am a watchman and have been so for 40 years. I have NO secrets. False doctrine must be exposed. I am not ashamed of what I believe. My dear friend again you do not KNOW their doctrine and neither do your bishops. Do you consider them flesh Jesus Christ in the flesh? I challenge you to join their camp and see how long you will be given the liberty to go around to churches and consider someone else your bishops. I thought they were just normal people until I got involved. They do not represent what you think they do. Hiding wrong and oppression is not my cup of tea.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.19.134 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 3:00 pm:        Test everything you hear from the pulpit against the Word of God The watchman in the Bible, however, blows a trumpet to warn of enemy attack instead of lighting a fire. In Ezekiel 33:1-10, God told the prophet some rules about watchmen. If a watchman sees the enemy and blows his trumpet to warn the people in the city, he has done his job well. However, if he sees the enemy and does not warn the people by blowing his trumpet, then the Lord will hold him responsible for all the bad things that happen to the city. I am only a warning voice for others not to fall into the same trap that we did.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.19.134 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 3:05 pm:        "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ..." 2 Pet. 2:1   arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 719 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 5:08 pm:        missionary lady... yes there are false prophets even today, i suppose i should say especially today. but there is a true gift of prophecy and when it is used correctly and in GOD it does work.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 94 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.193 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 6:08 pm:        Yes, I agree there are true prophets today.   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 11:29 pm:        Dowen, Before I answer your post I want to apologize if I offended you regarding your wife. It was not my intention. From talking to your grandfather he says she is a Godly women and that you have chosen well. Though it was a long time ago I remember Jeremy’s wife from HH and I know she also is a daughter of Sarah. You both are blessed to have chosen wives that will walk with you. Your mother is one of those special people as is your grandmother. In fact all of the Owens I met have great wives that compliment their husbands well. You said........“You (UG) get sillier everyday! Oh well, shall we dig into your convoluted mess of a post? I say we shall, and I will relish making mincemeat of your nonsense.” UG .....Amen to that! You said....“You and your crowd use those hurt feelings as an excuse to turn around and hurt those who hurt you (ie. this board). I didn't "laugh off" or make jokes, at the time of ANY of the things that happened to me. Most of the experiences that I recorded above hurt very, very deeply and it did take some time for some to the wounds to heal over. I believe the fact that I am able to laugh about those things now, is a testament to how well God has healed me...please quit trying to make the work of God look bad man!” UG....I am happy that you have been healed from the comments that “hurt very, very deeply”. I to have been healed from comments that make what we have been discussing look like school ground insults. I do not want to make light of God healing you. Since you were offended by that I apologize. You said....“Um, I don't know how many times I must tell you this. WHAT WAS TOLD TO ME HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A MAN-MADE DRESS CODE!!!!!!!!! Please accept this and move on to another issue” UG...All the !!!!!!!! and CAPITOL LETTERS will not change this. Those that made the comment did not think that your wives were “W‘s” that is obvious, the comment was based on how they looked. How they look is absolutely tied up in how they think they ought to look. “Please accept this and move on” I said....Has HH changed the laws for women? You answered......How am I supposed to know? I have told you over and over I am not a member of HH UG....You have got to be kidding! You are in your dad’s shop everyday and see many sisters from the fellowship, you see your mom and your own sisters and you do not know because you are not a member? Come on Daniel you lose your credibility with an answer like that. I said....Do they have the freedom to wear a pair of earrings to a Sunday or Friday meeting or say a wedding? Or is it not a problem anymore? How does that work?" You said.....Turn that question around, does your wife have the freedom to NOT wear a pair of earrings to a wedding etc. etc.? UG.....Yes she does. My wife does not wear make-up 90% of the time because as her husband I prefer her without make-up. It is a preference for me. Not a conviction I force on her. She has long hair, because I like long hair. She cuts it some every once in a while. She wears dresses most of the time, however if she wants to wear pants every once in a while that is OK with me. She really does have the freedom one way or the other. I did not see that in HH. You said....“I am still waiting for your answer to my question about OW claiming that HH denies the Divinity of Christ... Untill you answer my question, you are preachin' to the choir.” UG....You mentioned earlier in the post that I had not responded to several questions. Other than the Divinity question and not telling you my real name, I do not know of any questions I have not answered. Tell me the questions and I will attempt to answer them. As for the Divinity question, since you nor Praxaluh responded to my post on Oneness I did not bother to go on to the next question. If either of you acknowledge the Oneness post, I will move on to the next issue of Divinity. I said...."Could you and your wife join HH and she still have the freedom to dress like she does?" You said.....“To me, the sisters at HH are much freer than even my wife when it comes to how they dress. They have accomplished something that millions of people across this globe could only dream of, FREEDOM FROM FASHION. They have created their own "culture" in regard to their clothing, one that is NOT dictated by the run-ways in Paris. I say you should praising HH, not tearing them down and mocking them. (i.e 'HH laws', that is just ignorant)” UG......Again with the CAPITOL LETTERS......What HH women have is not ...“FREEDOM FROM FASHION”. They are just conforming to HH fashion. They are all the same. You can recognize an HH sister anywhere or at least you could. Has that changed? You said.....“They have created their own "culture" in regard to their clothing, one that is NOT dictated by the run-ways in Paris.” UG...Wow my wife shops mostly in Good Will and Thrift Shops as do most of the families I know who are way removed from HH. To quote a bright young man I know.....“You get sillier everyday!” I said.... "Disassociating a sister from the church because she wore earrings to her sons wedding is not God. If it is God Daniel where does that put your wife now?" You said........“Let's say that you are a Jehovah's Witness. JW's do not celebrate certain holidays. (I think it is JW's who do that) Well if you are a JW but insist on celebrating certain holidays, then the JW leadership would most certainly have the right to exert some type of descipline, first and foremost tell you that you cannot be identified with the rest of the JW's because you are blatently in rebellion to a tenant of their faith. Same goes for the lady wearing earrings while she was a member of HH.” You said further......“Honestly, I can't believe I am having to spell out this most elementary of principles....” UG....UNBELIEVABLE! Do you read what you write? You think that not celebrating holidays is a “tenant of their (Jehovah Witness) faith“ For a JW to celebrate a holiday in the JW they are “blatently in rebellion to a tenant of their faith”. “Then the JW leadership would most certainly have the right to exert some type of descipline,” You further admit that not wearing earrings is a tenant of HH faith. That women in HH wearing earrings are in rebellion to a man-made law and for that should receive discipline from HH leadership. Can I interpret that any other way? If not show me the Biblical mandate against earrings for women. I said......"You can call these things trivial all you want, but allot of people have been deeply hurt because HH has chosen to keep people under the law. Not the law of liberty in Christ. Not the freedom that Christ brings to overcome real sin. But demanding everyone conform to the man-made laws as mandated by HH and written by _____ _____." You said....“This paragraph is simpy trash, I can't believe you are still touting these tired old lines.” UG... I wish it were trash Daniel. I wish that HH really did trust the Holy Spirit in the Saints that they can hear from God for themselves and not make up all the man-made laws they have. I said....."Demanding everyone conform", You said.....“come on! Anyone can leave at any time they choose! May God have mercy on you for so falsly accusing His children! If I remember correctly, a false witness is one of the things He HATES. You are a false witness, I fear for you.” UG.....You need to answer Truth Hunters question......“Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life?” How about it Daniel? You said.....“All I can say is I want nothing to do with your brand of Grace. It is the most unsafe place/doctrine I can imagine believing or trusting in.” UG....Come on Daniel the water is fine. Not only is the Grace I believe in a safe place, unconditional love from the Father is a wonderful resting place....so I will say it again..... ."May God Bless you and your wife and may we all find the only really safe place....... Under Grace "   praxaluh (praxaluh) Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 8:45 pm:        Hi U_G, DOwen, Missionary Lady, ART and all, U_G "As for the Divinity question, since you nor Praxaluh responded to my post on Oneness I did not bother to go on to the next question. If either of you acknowledge the Oneness post, I will move on to the next issue of Divinity." Acknowledgement sent- :-) Awaiting part two ... #1 was a good read, responses and comments on hold. The thread is "Trinity vs Oneness / Diety of Christ" (with the famous misspelling) Shalom, Praxaluh   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 10:37 pm:        Praxaluh, Rather embarrassing to invert the e/i in Deity. No wonder no one responded to my post since I could not spell Deity it might follow that my opinion about it would be limited at best. Acknowledgement accepted. I will post on that embarrassing famous mis-spelled thread regarding Deity soon. I am in the middle of a very busy season that will not end until the end of January. Will try to work on the response a little at a time. Thanks for noticing. Under Grace   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 370 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:48 pm:        Here we go yet again Under_Grace......., I must say I am getting weary of making the same points over and over and over and over, but that in and of itself is a good thing. Any casual passer by to this site must soon also become weary of the repetition and Lord willing keep movin' on. That is my prayer leastways... Now to your post. "...I want to apologize if I offended you regarding your wife. It was not my intention. From talking to your grandfather he says she is a Godly women and that you have chosen well." Thanks, and apology accepted. "Those that made the comment did not think that your wives were “W‘s” that is obvious, the comment was based on how they looked. How they look is absolutely tied up in how they think they ought to look. “Please accept this and move on”" "How they look is absolutely tied up in how they think they ought to look." Actually, in my case, that is absolutely un-true. Sorry to burst your bubble... Please take a break from putting words on other people mouths. (It is a desperate tactit and quite revealing of the shakiness of your position...) You asked me; "....Has HH changed the laws for women?" My response was; "How am I supposed to know? I have told you over and over I am not a member of HH." Now you come back with this; "You have got to be kidding! You are in your dad’s shop everyday and see many sisters from the fellowship, you see your mom and your own sisters and you do not know because you are not a member? Come on Daniel you lose your credibility with an answer like that." First of all, if it is true that I am in "my dads shop everyday and see HH Sisters", then that should lend my words more credibility, not take away from them. Secondly, I am not a member of HH, they do not notify me of any changes in their dress codes or patterns. Lastly, I take great offense at your characterization of their dress patterns as "laws". You carefully chose that word because of it's inflamatory nature, revealing a bitter and intolerant side of you. It enrages me that you would be so condescending and arrogant to suggest that women like my mother and little sisters are essentially to stupid to realize they are under some type of "law". Furthermore when you write such self-rightous lines, it calls into question the integrity of men like my dad. After all, what father and husband would force his family to conform to these supposed "laws"? In fact, he has told me on several occasions that if HH was really as you and your crowd say it is, then he would never have joined in the first place. He went on to say if there had been a grain of Truth to what has been supposedly "exposed" here on FACTnet, he would have left immediately. I could go on, but I don't want the impact of the above statement to be lost in a multitude of words.   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 2:31 pm:        Dowen, Please answer this question if you can, Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life? Thanks, Jeremy   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.22.116 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 3:07 pm:        I know the answer wish ART would tell me what Jesus Name movement makes signed vows like that since he and his bishops seem to think they are in the oneness boat. I know no normal oneness, trinity or dualist group that signs vows like that... Our vows must be made to God and He alone...of course since they think they are Jesus in the flesh maybe they think they can make vows to leaders and it be the same as making a vow to God...   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 372 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 4:52 pm:        Truth_hunter, You said, "Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life? I do not know how to make this any clearer, NO HH does not believe what you have stated. Period. End of story. Get over it. I realize you won't agree with me, and that is OK. In the end, the real Truth will be known. I fear for you on that day...} (Message edited by dowen on December 05, 2005)   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 11:41 pm:        Dowen We do think alike you and I you said....“I must say I am getting weary of making the same points over and over and over and over,” and I agree. I am going to go over only one part of your post because it really goes to the heart of the matter. You said....“I take great offense at your characterization of their dress patterns as "laws". You carefully chose that word because of it's inflammatory nature, revealing a bitter and intolerant side of you. It enrages me that you would be so condescending and arrogant to suggest that women like my mother and little sisters are essentially to stupid to realize they are under some type of "law". Furthermore when you write such self-righteous lines, it calls into question the integrity of men like my dad. After all, what father and husband would force his family to conform to these supposed "laws"?” What is the difference between a law and a preference? Let us take the topic at hand I said HH has laws that the sisters must follow regarding dress and I listed them..........“HH sisters never wear pants, no make-up, dresses at least four inches below the knee, no sleeve-less blouses, no jewelry including wedding rings, no ankle socks (knee socks are OK, panty hose are OK or no socks at all is OK; ankle socks are forbidden because ankle socks could cause a brother to be drawn to the ankle in a sexual way). No bright colors that would draw undo attention to themselves and finally the hair must remain un-cut from the time they make their covenant commitment or as soon as they are informed of the temple pattern for women’s hair.” I did not make these up Daniel anyone that has been a member in HH will testify that this dress code is in effect in HH.” Here is the crux of the matter. You said.........“I take great offense at your characterization of their dress patterns as "laws". You said....“It enrages me that you would be so condescending and arrogant to suggest that women like my mother and little sisters are essentially to stupid to realize they are under some type of "law".” If it is not a law Daniel then your mom and sisters are not obligated to conform to them. I gave an example of a woman in HH fellowship that was disfellowshipped for wearing earrings to her sons wedding in another state. You gave the example in another post that Jehovah Witness do not celebrate holidays ( Christmas, Easter etc). You then made an interesting statement you said....“Well if you are a JW but insist on celebrating certain holidays, then the JW leadership would most certainly have the right to exert some type of discipline, first and foremost tell you that you cannot be identified with the rest of the JW's because you are blatantly in rebellion to a tenant of their faith. Same goes for the lady wearing earrings while she was a member of HH“. Daniel, do you not see an incredible contradiction? You say that you are offended by my calling the laws, rules or patterns that HH sisters dress by. You say that it makes them (your sisters and mom) look stupid.....“to realize they are under some type of "law". You further say.....“Furthermore when you write such self-righteous lines, it calls into question the integrity of men like my dad. After all, what father and husband would force his family to conform to these supposed "laws"?” If it is not a law or as you call it “a tenant of their faith“. Then if you mom decides one day at Wal-Mart she wants to buy some earrings and a read dress since that is not against the law that would be OK? YOU KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE! If your mom tried to wear a pair of earrings and a red dress to a meeting she would be disciplined. You already said the leadership would have a right to do that when you said.....“leadership (of JW or HH) would most certainly have the right to exert some type of discipline.” “...because you are blatantly in rebellion to a tenant of their faith.(for JW celebrating a holiday and HH woman wearing the earring as their respective faiths forbid them to do so). Daniel it is a law if you are going to be disciplined for not doing it. If the sisters did not conform to the dress code law they would be disciplined. If they did not repent they would be disfellowshipped. Now comes the second part of this progression....This next question and answer strikes at the heart of why I and many former members write on this website. Truth Hunter asked you the question..."Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life? Your Answer.....I do not know how to make this any clearer, NO HH does not believe what you have stated. Period. End of story. Get over it. Look at what your saying. You claim that the dress code is not a law. You say you are offended because I and vast majority of former members say it is. Then you justify HH disfellowshipping a former member for wearing earrings to her sons wedding by saying the leadership had a right to do that because that sister broke a tenant of her faith wearing earrings. Lets carry this one step further. The sister was disfellowshipped for wearing earrings to her sons wedding. If the sister does not repent and come back under the discipleship (that does include the dress code that got her disfellowshipped in the first place) of HH she will not make it heaven or as Truth Hunter said “God cannot forgive her”. You say NO this is not true. Period. End of story. Get over it. Daniel, YES they do believe exactly what Truth Hunter said. I will say it like this. If you leave or you are disfellowshipped from Homestead Heritage fellowship and you do not eventually repent and come back under their HH authority you are not going to reach heaven.....“Period. End of story. Get over it”. Further if you die after you leave they will have a meeting to let the current members know that person did not make it! You know this. Your dad knows this. I not making this up. It happened when I was in HH and it happens now. You see Daniel a simple thing like wearing a pair of earrings can send you to hell if it is a law that you have to keep. It is not a joke or funny. HH leaders including your dad will tell you if a sister does not want to conform to one of the HH laws in dress code they are not concerned that she wants to wear a pair of earrings our concern is that wearing those earrings shows some deeper, darker rebellion in her heart. In the end it is the earrings that did her in. God Bless you Dowen and your family. Hope this cold winter night has you warm and comfortable and forever...... Under Grace   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:07 am:        Dress codes, or the ‘law’ as some of you put it, are common in society. Professional sports teams all have dress codes. If you break the code you are fined and if you don’t ‘repent’ and dress according to their rules you are off the team; disfellowshipped as you call it. Groups like the ‘Red Hat Society’ have strict dress codes. Try wearing a green hat to their meetings and see if you stay. Most businesses have dress codes. Some even dictate exactly what you will wear. Almost all schools have dress codes. Neighborhood associations have ‘dress codes’ for property. Break the rules and you’re thrown out of the neighborhood. The following is a dress code for CMRI churches………. Please observe the basic standards of dress for attendance at church services in our churches: • Women and girls must cover their heads. (Chapel veils or mantillas are available for loan in the vestibules of most chapels.) • Women and girls must wear dresses or skirts that cover the knee completely when standing or sitting. Slacks, shorts, sleeveless, tight or low-cut clothing, and dresses or skirts with long slits are not permitted. • Men and boys should wear suit coats and ties. • Jeans and other casual attire are inappropriate for attendance at church services. Now what happens if some lady wants to attend but does not choose to cover her head? And she wants to wear slacks. My, my, we must burn this church down. How dare they try and tell my wife to cover her head and wear a dress. How revolting! And doesn’t society in general have a dress code. You WILL wear clothes that cover up certain body parts or you will be thrown in jail. A man can walk around topless, why not a woman? Discrimination!!! Or is it a code? If you don’t agree to abide by this code simply move to another country that allows your behavior and be done with it. Just because a church has certain dress rules does not qualify them to be bullies. They simply choose a certain code and the members can either submit to the code or move on. This isn’t rocket science.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 114 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.6.192 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:57 am:        As much as I have traveled must churches have different dress codes, most work places have dress codes, so I will not comment on dress codes but what bothers me most about HH is their authority issues, Jesus in the flesh doctrine and signing a covenant and I quote the question, "Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life? " What bothers me is not matter what pro other con sides say, it is the covenant part is true... That is not normal or healthy. If HH is right on other issues they harm themselves by their authority message, disfellowshipping, shunning, Jesus in the flesh, covanent to mention a few things...   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 9:39 am:        Covenant = A solemn agreement. A contract. A promise. God takes covenants very seriously. A marriage covenant is ‘till death do us part’. Some churches also, and rightly so, take covenants very seriously. If you make a covenant with them you have agreed, promised, and solemnly pledged yourself to this Body. If you break this covenant you are in danger of God’s judgment just as much as if you break your marriage covenant. Don’t be too quick to demand God fulfill his covenant to you if you in turn fail your covenant to your church.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.8.222 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:17 am:        That is not true...a covenant with God is one thing an earthly covenant another thing.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.8.222 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:22 am:        I sat down and talked with a person last night that made a covenant in a "church" a covenant that destroyed family, friends and quality of life itself. God will not hold a person guilty for breaking a covenant that is against HIS WORD.   truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 84 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:45 am:        So to accept God's offer to enter into ultimate covenant, the New Covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, means first making a a decision to enter into solemn and sacred marriage vows. This marriage is between the Bridegroom, Christ, and His Bride, the church. Our inclusion in his Kingdom comes by joining Him in his exclusive covenant. Moreover, we have not made this decision until we accept the submissive commitment to Him in the same way a bride acknowledges her commitment to her husband by taking on his name.(Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5). Just as a bride takes on her husband's name, so the Bride of Christ must be joined through covenant vows to her Husband through his covenant name. Each member of that bride then walks escorted on the arm of our heavenly Father ( the eternal Spirit of Yahweh that draws us to Christ) to the alter of Calvary where our bridegroom waits with nail scared hands to receive us unto Himself, not only unto His divine and resurrected life but also unto his abused and suffering identity on earth.( Isa. 52:14; 53:2-10). Once at the alter, we agree to pour ourselves into the form that the temple presents to us, to pour out our souls on the alter of repentance , in death to our old identity, until our lives commingle with Christ's, until we are one with Him, until we have abandoned our old fallen identity even to the point of assuming His righteousness, where we say, "I will," to the question of whether we ,"forsaking all others," will unite with ourselves to this God and to His Body, His people, "for better or for worse, in sickness of in health, for richer for poorer, from this time forth even forever more," to surrender unto Him in eternal submission, to be faithful "even unto death." Obviously, when we marry, we join ourselves to a specific husband or wife. Yet this is not our only specific commitment to the Body. We can see this clearly in the life of Ruth......... ............................................ And this relationship with Naomi led her place in a specific part of the nation of Israel, a specific tribe, within a specific clan and a specific family and finally unto a specific man in her marriage to Boaz; for her covenant obligation joined her in these specific ways and not simply to just any part of the people of Israel that she might choose, floating as a butterfly from one place to another. And notice that her specific commitment and "Loyalty" to Naomi, "Where you go, I will go", did not "sever" her from Israel or Israel's God, but constituted her tangible expression of how real her devotion to God actually was, for Ruth then said, "Your people will be my people and your God my God". An example will make this clearer. What would it mean, for instance, to step to the alter and say, "From this time forth, and even forever more," as we gave our vows before God in the sight of many witnesses only to then --say , three days later --- desert or betray your spouse? Would it mean that we had entered into the covenant that we were covenant-keepers, that we were part of the covenant? No. It would mean only that we were covenant breakers, holding in contempt everything sacred --- the very blood of the New Covenant (Heb. 10:9). Moreover, we would have broken our vows because we would have broken chesed. We would have betrayed our obligations, our commitments. The same holds true for the Body of Christ: Because we made the confession doesn't mean in and of itself that we're actually part of His New Covenant; as necessary as making of the covenant is , the realizing and the keeping of the covenant prove even more necessary. Those who abandon their covenant with God or God's people without a word of explanation are no better than those who abandon their spouses and children without a word of explanation. The church has no obligation to to seek these out as "lost sheep" since the "well have no need of a physician"; and these certainly are making a claim that they are well, not diseased with sin. Since they do not see them selves as lost, they would reject all efforts at help. They not the church, are the abandoners of the covenant. To prove love's enduring power, the covenant, which defines our responsibility unto God, has a term duration: "unto death" When we confine ourselves within the limits, the walls, that God has ordained for our lives, then we like Joseph, shall become fruitful vines whose fruitfulness shall reach over all walls (Gen. 49:22) that define the limits covenant confinement and so are seen and even tasted by those beyond the confines of the covenant, to testify to them of the fullness of God's love. If they are words we will stand by with the infinite passion God desires us to have, then they will be words that, as we keep them will keep us even beyond the edge of doom. The above are excerpts From "Chesed" by Blair Adams, founder and Leader of Homestead Heritage. Dowen, I asked, "Does HH believe that if you break your life long commitment to their discipleship, that you have broken a covenant with God that cannot be forgiven unless you resubmit your self to their headship in your life? You said, I do not know how to make this any clearer, NO HH does not believe what you have stated. Period. End of story. Get over it. I realize you won't agree with me, and that is OK. In the end, the real Truth will be known. I fear for you on that day... Dowen if you read the above excerpts in light of the testimonies of especially ML but also so many others, you see that the focus is not on God, or a personal covenant with him, but a earthly covenant to men, who becomes your God, or connection to him. I think of the example of Ruth and how you are told you must make a commitment like She did to Naomi, and say, " If anything but death separate me from you, may God deal ever so severely with me. (HH)." This covenant that everyone that is a member makes, holds them in fear and is what keeps HH together. Dowen you can deny it but if they tell you to make such a covenant, they believe that you are doomed if you break it. (Message edited by truth hunter on December 06, 2005)   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:07 am:        Rom 1:31-32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Matt 5:33-37 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 117 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.139 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:14 pm:        That scripture has nothing to do with covenants at HH...a person would have to be very naive or brainwashed to think that has to do with HH covenants... Could we apply that to the Jim Jones group that died rather than break their vow...or maybe closer home to D.K.'s bunch... Now don't jump the gun I am not saying HH is DK or JJ. I am only making a point... When a covenant is made in sincerity but later we realize we are wrong we have a God that is ready to help us...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.139 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:24 pm:        My mom made a covenant there...so sad so much talent she could have used on the mission field just thrown down the drain on a bunch of proof books and papers... She was an awesome missionary but see how many she has won to God there? None...In Brazil she won hundreds to God...bless her, they have her believing she is doing God some special kind of service sitting there typing their things... I cannot talk to her for she is beyond reasoning with even though I KNOW SHE SEE THROUGH MANY THINGS THERE...She is too smart not too... I just wish they were normal people where I could go see her but I probably will not see her again unless she meets me somewhere...but they will probably put it into her head it is not God's will...I saw what they did to her over the Belize trip...   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 1:40 pm:        ML ….I hope you don’t mind my observation but may I interject……… “I saw what they did to her over the Belize trip...” “My mom made a covenant there” “She is too smart” “she is beyond reasoning with” “She was an awesome missionary” You speak so high of your mom and then at the same time you say she can’t be reasoned with and is not willing to abandon her beliefs and join your camp. You are right and she is wrong and that’s that!!! Apparently she is ……….smart, dumb, sweet, hardheaded, awesome, fooled, ……….what? What is she? You speak both ways of her. I think I know what she is…………..She is your mom! Respect her!!! Respect her decisions!!!   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 1:51 pm:        “When a covenant is made in sincerity but later we realize we are wrong….” That’s what is wrong with society today. We make a covenant and then change our mind. Sure I married her. She cooks well and then at night when the lights go out…..WOW. But now I see she nags a lot and first thing in the morning without the makeup….wolf-wolf. So I think I’ll just break our covenant and go find me another gal. What? God doesn’t allow this? You mean I’m stuck with her? Oh my……………   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 119 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.139 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 2:26 pm:        Pure heart: You are completely wrong. I HAVE NEVER ASKED MY MOM TO JOIN US. I RESPECT her decisions, understand why she made her decisions. You are about to force me to say something that I really do not want to put here. I did not say I am right and she is wrong..I am for not joining, she is "taken care" of there. That is more than I can do for her. I love her and hurt to see her hurting and have no outlet. My Mom is smart, sweet, and I do respect her if I did not I would write a lot of things here you would not enjoy reading. I have mentioned nothing about marriage. I am not in double marriage...but comparing a marriage vow and a church vow is two different things. Do you think I am some dummy...My friends all said, "leave Sister Alvear alone she will find out what HH is...and I did... You wouldn't want me to tell you what I could...or would you? Your reasoning is theirs it is just like my JW friends... So no covenant is supposed to be broken? My neighbor made a covenant to be a witchdoctor in the Name of the Lord...You know they use the same Bible we do in Brazil...so he is supposed to keep this covenant like his wedding vow... Some junk you have been fed...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 120 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.139 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 2:41 pm:        I have a young people's community meeting tonight but between times I plan to write some more so just keep your computer on.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.139 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 2:51 pm:        John 6:35, 41, 48, 51. Jesus repeatedly described Himself as the "Bread of Life" which came down from Heaven. John 8:58. Jesus claimed His eternity past, as God, when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." John 9:5. Jesus said He was the "light of the world". He did not say He was one of the lights, but the light. In every occultic system since the time of Jesus, Satan has implanted this false doctrine. John 9:39. Jesus emphasised the judgement side of His character, when He stated, "For judgement I AM come into this world". Again, in every occultic system, Satan has ignored Jesus' judgement. John 10:7-10. Jesus declared, "I am the door of the sheep". In verse 9, Jesus said, "...by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved". John 14:6. Just to ensure no one missed the point that He was the only path to eternal salvation, Jesus finally stated, "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me".   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 122 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 2:59 pm:        Let me see...I have two cousins whom are Masons, family that are shriners...they all made vows.. to "God" and to their religion so that means according to you they must be faithful until death....The Masons say a covenant is a contract or agreement between two or more parties on certain terms. In becoming a Mason, a man enters into a covenant with the Fraternity, agreeing to fulfill certain promises and perform certain duties. On the other hand, the Fraternity and its members bind themselves to certain ties of friendship, brotherliness, protection support and benefits. The breaking of a covenant is subject to penalties. I just told a mason not to long ago to break his vow...so according to your teaching he can divorce his wife also...   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 134 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:00 pm:        If I’m wrong it won’t be the first time…… I understand your motives but I still think you don’t give your mom credit for her decisions. I also recognize there are exceptions to anything and there are times when a covenant has to be set aside but it should be a rare event under extreme circumstances. The best scenario is if you can get both parties to agree to set it aside then it is not broken. In any event be sure to involve God in your decision. “but comparing a marriage vow and a church vow is two different things.” A vow is a vow. The ninth commandment does not really differentiate. In marriage there should not be a ‘vow’ but a ‘covenant’. Vow = swear, promise, give your word, guarantee Covenant = contract, bond, pledge, union   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 135 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:03 pm:        “I just told a mason not to long ago to break his vow...so according to your teaching he can divorce his wife also...” No, this would be breaking TWO covenants. I’m confused as to how you came to that determination based on my statements. ???   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 94 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:14 pm:        Pureheart You said....“Dress codes, or the ‘law’ as some of you put it, are common in society. Professional sports teams all have dress codes. If you break the code you are fined and if you don’t ‘repent’ and dress according to their rules you are off the team;” You indicated you live out of state and you were coming to the fair. I hope you did and if you did I am betting you had a marvelous time it is a fun day. However, when you write things like the quote above I wonder if you are from another planet or perhaps you are posting from somewhere near Homestead Heritage in Waco with the job of simply making ridicules statements to divert the attention from the truth. To compare what I posted to the uniform conformity of a sports team (football or basketball uniforms) is ludicrous and frankly an insult to a third grade mentality. You can’t nude in public because we have a dress code? Wow! As you said this “isn’t rocket science.” You are unbelievable! I was under the impression that being a Christian Pureheart you were working with a modicum of basic biblical understanding and at least some common sense. Looking at your last post tells me that any Christian sister in HH or not should have the freedom to wear what they want within the bounds of MAN‘S LAW (Can’t go naked in the street). As a Christian you should dress within REASONABLE BOUNDS OF MODESTY (should wear a bra, not pants that are poured on where your private areas are revealed etc.). Even within reasonable bounds of modesty their could be some disagreement. I think you get the idea. YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT! It is not that the sisters in HH have a dress code which even you admit that they do. What separates HH from every other dress code or law is they can and will be disfellowshiped from not only HH fellowship, but that sister would lose their salvation if they woke up one day and said I want to start wearing earrings when I go to Wal-Mart (not just Sunday service Pureheart). Once someone saw the sister wearing the earrings they would have to repent and not wear them anymore. If they chose not to they would be dismissed from the church and forfeit their salvation until they repented and came back under the complete submission to the leadership of HH and all the laws that go with that! Pureheart give us a break you have not been a part of something like that. And as much fun as you had at HH, I am willing to bet your wife would not submit to those restrictions to join HH. People think it is so wonderful to live the life of the 1880’s (or at least pretend to live that life) until they realize there is no compromise EVER! You will submit to the laws everyone of them or eventually you will leave or be disfellowshiped. That is a reality you can not write about Pureheart. You keep bringing up oranges every time we bring up apples and since they are both fruit you think it is the same thing. You just do not know what you write about. It would be funny if we were not talking about real people who have been brain washed to think because they could not keep all the laws they believe they have broken covenant with God and are losing their salvation. Missionary Lady, I do respect any sisters right to dress according to their conscious hair, dresses (no pants), jewelry (wedding rings) or not, make-up or not. I just do not believe brothers have the right to make laws and link that to their salvation and from what I have read from your posts we are not far apart on that. If a church has dress rules and a member decides that it is no longer something they can live with then maybe they need to go from a UPC church to a oneness church that does not have the dress code. I know that has happened as it has taken place many times right where I live. The UPC church these folks left from are not declaring they left their covenant with God when they left the their local UPC church, in fact the two oneness pastors regularly fellowship and sometimes even have joint services. There is a huge difference between that and what HH does. Under Grace   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:16 pm:        If HH would have been right I would have thrown all to the wind...for my whole life has been in persuit of God and His best. My mom knows that to be true. When I saw what I will call "wrong" there and using GOD'S name for self benfit...I backed away...My friend I did not start yesterday on my journey...I am about to finish it up...BUT I will take sides with wrong and they were wrong. They may try to scare others using God's name but I don't scare. They may try to force others using God's name but I am not from the same "sack". (That is a Brazilian expression) I have been around long enough to know magicians tricks...It may take longer to catch on because I REALLY WANTED TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH. My friend, if I may call you that the truth was shocking to say the least. I wanted things there to be real. Preacher after preacher told me it was not what met the eye Would you like for me to state a few cases? I really don't think you would. Not here anyway.   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 136 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:27 pm:        ML, My main point in all of this….don‘t make a covenant unless you intend to stick to it. Years ago a man’s word was all you needed. Today, everyone throws around promises and makes commitments they have no intention of honoring. That’s why half of all marriages end in divorce. That’s why most churches have revolving doors and a constant 10 percent turnover. That’s why contracts are broken daily and people fight in court. We can debate this forever and never find a happy median. But we both love Jesus and we both like to tell others about His love. It’s a comfort to know God will sort it all out in his timing. In Christ, Pureheart   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 125 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:34 pm:        so you can break one but not two? strange reasoning...   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 137 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:39 pm:        UG, I will abstain from answering your unjustifiable attack. I was attempting to make a point. If it doesn’t pass muster in your camp I at least hope it made sense to someone. In our discussions I have anticipated to keep it fairly friendly. I pray we can return to that. May God bless you. Have a great day. P.S. I do live out of state and my family did make the fair and enjoyed it.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 127 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:40 pm:        Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; and anything beyond these is of evil.   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 138 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:45 pm:        “so you can break one but not two? strange reasoning...” I do not remember suggesting to even break one. However, I agreed with you that there might be a mitigating circumstance for such an event.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:52 pm:        Pure heart: If we leave a church we do not have to be treated like a leper and shunned or run down by the elders...Lots of people come and go they did it in Bible times...Jesus had people coming and going so did the first church and so it is. I wish people were more stable... I don't think because someone is not in our camp they are not saved. YOU know HH teaches that we will come to them in the last days for "food" you will only know this if you have been one of them of course if you have not been one of them then there are a LOT of things you do not know and I hope you never find out about their doctrine. Just think of them as some quaint people that live in a little village...I hope you never find out the why's...It will be best like that...just visit their little village year after year...   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:56 pm:        Pureheart You said.... "If you make a covenant with them you have agreed, promised, and solemnly pledged yourself to this Body. If you break this covenant you are in danger of God’s judgment just as much as if you break your marriage covenant. Don’t be too quick to demand God fulfill his covenant to you if you in turn fail your covenant to your church." Have you ever made a covenant to a local Body? Have you ever made a covenant unto death..."If anything but death separate me from you, may God deal ever so severely with me." Another words you agree to be apart of that local church until you die. From the saner posts you have written I do not think you have and I hope you have enough sense not to ever do it. If you did make a Ruth / Naomi promise unto death and you woke up one day and realized the convenant that you made was not to God and the Body of Christ but to men who think they are Jesus come in the flesh. Instead of being conected to the Body of Christ around the world you made a covenant to a local body that can find no one else to fellowship outside the group in Waco (and sometimes a couple of small satellite groups). Again you are writing about things you know not of! BTW...You said..."Don’t be too quick to demand God fulfill his covenant to you if you in turn fail your covenant to your church." Brother you miss the whole point, the Isrealites could not keep the covenant that is why the Messiah came. Jesus became the covenant so now we obtain rightousness by faith. Paul said "if there was a law given that we could obtain rightousness by then salvation would come from the law." We can not obtain salvation by obeying the law. "For by grace are we saved through faith, not of works lest any man should boast" We love him because he first loved us. He loved us while we were yet sinners. Come Pureheart rest in his grace and abide.... Under Grace   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 130 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 4:09 pm:        so you the mason keep his vow?   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 139 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 4:11 pm:        “If we leave a church we do not have to be treated like a leper and shunned or run down by the elders” ML….I agree with you whole heartily on this account. I know there are situations where someone falls away from God and must be avoided because they will cause dissention within the body…..However, I am very disturbed when a church shuns someone just for moving to another church. You may have broken a covenant and it may hurt feelings but it is no reason to act contrary to Jesus teachings. And to speak openly negative remarks is disheartening.   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 140 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 4:16 pm:        "so you the mason keep his vow?" I would advise the Mason to ask the people he has the covenant with to agree to set it aside. If he is persistent I think he might prevail. If not, then just pray about it, break it if he feels to, and ask God to forgive him for making the covenant in the first place and learn from it. We all make mistakes.   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 141 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 4:26 pm:        "....if you have not been one of them then there are a LOT of things you do not know and I hope you never find out about their doctrine. Just think of them as some quaint people that live in a little village...I hope you never find out the why's...It will be best like that...just visit their little village year after year..."..... _____________ Correct, there are a lot of things I do not know about them. And I wish to keep it that way. While at their fair I saw their book, ‘What we believe’, but I did not pick it up. You see, if I read it then I have to compare them to my belief and then I become a hypocrite. I am not so much defending them in their unique belief as much as I am defending their opportunity to believe and do as they wish.   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 142 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 4:32 pm:        ML, It’s been delightful to visit with you today. Have a great meeting. I must run. The weather is really getting rotten.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.92 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 4:35 pm:        sorry skipped a word so you mean the mason sould keep his vow   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 132 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.118.3 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 7:11 pm:        I read about the HH fellowship covenant, and how that if you agree, promise or solemnly pledge yourself to the fellowship, and break the covenant you are in danger of God’s judgement. After reading about several organizations I found that you have to make a covenant (often a blood covenant, even at times swearing on the ‘Word of God’). A few of them are Hell’s Angels, Freemasonry, and the Mafia as well as Satanism and some stages of Witchcraft. A man by the name of Michael Franzese told his story. A sworn member of the Colombo crime family in NYC, he was considered the biggest moneymaker in the mob since Al Capone. At age thirty-five, he was number eighteen on Fortune magazines list of the fifty most wealthy and powerful Mafia bosses in America. But, then he did the unthinkable. He quit the mob after falling in love with a beautiful young woman and being convertad to Christianity. He said his life was defined by two covenants. The first bound him to the mob. The second set him free. Are you telling me that because Michael made the covenant with the Mafia, he has to keep that commitment? The ‘Word of God’ teaches us to keep our promises, vows, commitments. But, where do we draw the line? Shouldn’t that be determined by “God’s Word?” If I make a covenant to follow you so you can watch for my soul and lead me in the paths of righteousness, then you start to teach contrary to God’s doctrine “YOU “ have broken the covenant, so I am no longer bound by it. The word covenant is mentioned two hundred ninety-two times in the Bible: -Political agreements within Israel. -Political agreements between nations. -A covenant of mutual protection. -Material pledges. -A covenant imposed by superior military power (not a mutual agreement.) -To appoint a king based on their knowledge that God has appointed him. -Most were about God’s covenant with men. God’s covenant is a relationship of love and loyalty between God and His chosen people. In the “covenant” man’s response contributes to covenant fulfillment; yet grace always goes before man’s response. Occasionally, Israel, “made a covenant” before the Lord. Israel did not propose the terms or a basis of union with God. They responded to “God’s Covenant.” We therefore should not try to propose the terms for our salvation. Rather we should study to find out HIS terms. …For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh. God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-3 We find out that we need more than the law. We need God’s Spirit to set us free. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things. Acts 15:28 Several times throughout the New Testament we are given instructions that will help us live godlier. Twice in Hebrews the ‘principles of the oracles of God’ (The ABC’s of the Word) are mentioned. Too often we base our standards on things we see around us and don’t teach the precepts (a mandate or commandment from God) or principles (the base). With the ever-changing fads and new inventions there is no way we can warn our young people about everything they will face that could be their downfall. But, when the ‘Word of God’ teaches, that it is a sin to even look on a woman to lust after her, if we can get it in our young peoples heart that whatever causes lust in their heart is a sin. Then teach them to examine things themselves and leave it alone if it causes the sin in their heart. People need to be taught to get God’s guidance and make decisions for themselves. So when they don’t have us to guide them they will know how to decide whether something is a sin. As far as the covenant made in the HH is concerned, you, your brother, your mother or no one else is bound by the covenant when the ones who are bound to be responsible for your soul have broken the covenant or you discover that such a covenant is not in accordance to God’s word. It is never easy to walk away, especially when you are being blackballed, criticized, or made to feel like a criminal, because generally someone in authority or a powerful position will make you an example to discourage others from following you. It takes great courage to see where someone in authority has erred away from the ‘Word of God’ and to walk away and save yourself and your family. …Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God…Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness…covenant breakers…they which commit such things are worthy of death… Romans 1:21-32 Someone needs to examine the situation and acknowledge who the covenant breaker is.   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 376 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 7:24 pm:        "Someone needs to examine the situation and acknowledge who the covenant breaker is." It seems you already have and I am appalled that you are seemingly willing to pass judgment on men of God like my father. "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God…Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness…covenant breakers…they which commit such things are worthy of death…" Are you accusing the leaders of HH of being guilty of those things? I pray not... Furthermore, are you actually grouping HH in with "Hell’s Angels, Freemasonry, and the Mafia as well as Satanism and some stages of Witchcraft."???????? Again, I pray not.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.108.85 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:24 pm:        No, I am not...so don't get too worked up. I only used examples of groups that make covenants unto death and if a covenant could be broken. I don't even know you and have no idea who your father is and I am not God to judge and send people to hell. I only quoted a scripture among many scriptures I quoted. Besides Pureheart and I were talking about breaking covenants and if they could be broken. I was not even talking to you. I have heard the "men of God" there pass judgement on others since they are Jesus in the flesh I guess you think they can make no mistakes.. If HH was so good then by all means you should be there. You do not impress me one bit always having your feelings on your sholders about HH. YOU ACTIONS OF NOT BEING THERE SPEAK LOUDER THAN YOUR WORDS. I am judging no one I am examing a system...A system that tried to suck us in, used our name without permission, then in my opionion used my mom as their guina pig...Bless her sweet heart they have her believing it was her fault for things not going well with us...She has told me that I told her it was not so but because she mentioned our doubts she was punished...I am shocked that your father that you claim to be such a man of God would be in on something like that...   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 134 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.108.85 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:28 pm:        And besides I did not accuse anyone of anything Paul did. You can ask him what and who he was talking about. Of course only if you join HH if not they doubt I would assume that you will see Paul...   dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 377 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:31 pm:        Wow! What sarcasm! I will pray for you... God bless, DOwen.   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 135 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.108.85 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:40 pm:        Maybe sarcasm in your book TRUTH in mine.   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 97 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 9:18 pm:        Pureheart, You said..."UG, I will abstain from answering your unjustifiable attack. I was attempting to make a point. If it doesn’t pass muster in your camp I at least hope it made sense to someone. In our discussions I have anticipated to keep it fairly friendly. I pray we can return to that." UG...Pureheart you are right I should not make things personal. I was wrong to do that. My sincere apology. Name calling and insulting ones inteligence is over the line and I will refrain. No dought you have gotten as frustrated with me as I have with you and I do not remember you going where I did, please forgive me. Sincerely Under Grace   under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 98 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:06 pm:        Hey Everyone, You may have read my post to Pureheart. In my post on dress code addressed to him I said some personal things I regret. Perhaps it is time to take a rest from the web site for a while. For the next few weeks I have a ton of things on my plate. Though I have not met most of you in a strange way I feel like I know you. I will miss you'll. For now I bid you adieu, will return soon. Hibernating for a little while remaining.... Under Grace   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 7:21 am:        Under Grace, I understand and I completely forgive you. Thank you. Pureheart   pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 8:41 am:        Missionary Lady, I kept your statement intact and inserted my views. Thanks ++++++++++++++ ML…I read about the HH fellowship covenant, and how that if you agree, promise or solemnly pledge yourself to the fellowship, and break the covenant you are in danger of God’s judgment. - - - - - - - - PH…Normally what is meant by that statement in most churches is ‘if you break covenant with the Body of Christ then you are in danger’. - - - - - - - - ML…After reading about several organizations I found that you have to make a covenant (often a blood covenant, even at times swearing on the ‘Word of God’). A few of them are Hell’s Angels, Freemasonry, and the Mafia as well as Satanism and some stages of Witchcraft. A man by the name of Michael Franzese told his story. A sworn member of the Colombo crime family in NYC, he was considered the biggest moneymaker in the mob since Al Capone. At age thirty-five, he was number eighteen on Fortune magazines list of the fifty most wealthy and powerful Mafia bosses in America. But, then he did the unthinkable. He quit the mob after falling in love with a beautiful young woman and being convertad to Christianity. He said his life was defined by two covenants. The first bound him to the mob. The second set him free. Are you telling me that because Michael made the covenant with the Mafia, he has to keep that commitment? - - - - - - - - - PH…No, I’m not saying he has to keep that commitment. However, his mistake was in making the promise. And I think he should ask God’s forgiveness for making said covenant. A covenant is a promise and if you break it you have told an untruth no matter to whom. Your next statement is perfect. - - - - - - - - - - ML…The ‘Word of God’ teaches us to keep our promises, vows, commitments. But, where do we draw the line? Shouldn’t that be determined by “God’s Word?” - - - - - - - PH…Yes - - - - - - - ML…If I make a covenant to follow you so you can watch for my soul and lead me in the paths of righteousness, then you start to teach contrary to God’s doctrine “YOU “ have broken the covenant, so I am no longer bound by it. - - - - - - PH…O.K. but this is where it gets muddy. This is where interpretation comes in. And then opinions come out and then we have feelings hurt. And then we have all these different denominations. I guess we will have to wait for Jesus to answer this one for us. - - - - - - - ML…The word covenant is mentioned two hundred ninety-two times in the Bible: -Political agreements within Israel. -Political agreements between nations. -A covenant of mutual protection. -Material pledges. -A covenant imposed by superior military power (not a mutual agreement.) -To appoint a king based on their knowledge that God has appointed him. -Most were about God’s covenant with men. God’s covenant is a relationship of love and loyalty between God and His chosen people. In the “covenant” man’s response contributes to covenant fulfillment; yet grace always goes before man’s response. Occasionally, Israel, “made a covenant” before the Lord. Israel did not propose the terms or a basis of union with God. They responded to “God’s Covenant.” We therefore should not try to propose the terms for our salvation. Rather we should study to find out HIS terms. ----------- PH…Amen - - - - ML…For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh. God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-3 We find out that we need more than the law. We need God’s Spirit to set us free. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things. Acts 15:28 Several times throughout the New Testament we are given instructions that will help us live godlier. Twice in Hebrews the ‘principles of the oracles of God’ (The ABC’s of the Word) are mentioned. Too often we base our standards on things we see around us and don’t teach the precepts (a mandate or commandment from God) or principles (the base). With the ever-changing fads and new inventions there is no way we can warn our young people about everything they will face that could be their downfall. But, when the ‘Word of God’ teaches, that it is a sin to even look on a woman to lust after her, if we can get it in our young peoples heart that whatever causes lust in their heart is a sin. Then teach them to examine things themselves and leave it alone if it causes the sin in their heart. People need to be taught to get God’s guidance and make decisions for themselves. So when they don’t have us to guide them they will know how to decide whether something is a sin. As far as the covenant made in the HH is concerned, you, your brother, your mother or no one else is bound by the covenant when the ones who are bound to be responsible for your soul have broken the covenant or you discover that such a covenant is not in accordance to God’s word. - - - - - - - - PH…Again, this is when interpretation and opinion comes in. But one should carefully consider and research before entering into such a covenant. Promises and pledges should not be made until you are absolutely certain you can fulfill your part. - - - - - - ML…It is never easy to walk away, especially when you are being blackballed, criticized, or made to feel like a criminal, because generally someone in authority or a powerful position will make you an example to discourage others from following you. It takes great courage to see where someone in authority has erred away from the ‘Word of God’ and to walk away and save yourself and your family. …Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God…Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness…covenant breakers…they which commit such things are worthy of death… Romans 1:21-32 Someone needs to examine the situation and acknowledge who the covenant breaker is. - - - - - - - PH…I agree. And remember, God knows who the covenant breaker is no matter what everyone else decides. And it’s His decision that counts. (Message edited by pure-heart on December 07, 2005)   missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 136 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.43.35 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 2:30 pm:        Yes I agree. God knows and that is what counts.   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:02 pm:        Bump.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.77 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:57 pm:        God expects no man to obey and stick to a covenant unto death under the circumstances that covenants are made at HH. There is nothing biblical about the HH covenant. God expects us to use common sense. May God help those poor HH people...I feel so sorry for them.   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:46 pm:        If you truly loved the folks at HH, you would NOT be be here attacking them and making fun of them. If you truly felt sorry for the folks at HH, you would not treat them the way you treat them, and you would not stand by while others treat them shamefully. As I have told you before, you are better than this. Your bitter and unrelenting attack of HH has far greater implications than you could ever imagine, and one day you will regret your words here. The modern anti cult movement/Watchman Fellowship/Rick Ross/etc. has blood on it's hands, blood that you are also now responsible for, simply because you have associated yourself with these vermin. I know the folks at HH, and they are nothing like what you describe them to be. They are not dupes, they are not fools, they are not Nazis, they are not idiots, they are not abused(by anyone but you that is). They are Christians, they are Mothers, they are Fathers, they are sisters and brothers, they are friends and family. And yet, you sit on your self appointed throne of judgment, and call them fools, and continue sharpening your pitchforks and lighting your torches. Shame on you.   missionary_lady New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.71 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 2:39 pm:        Sorry Daniel but HH has blood on their hands and gets bloodier with every passing day... and the people that wirte here with tears are not dupes, fools, idiots or whatever you seem to think we are. We are God fearing people that are here to warn you and many others of danger.   dowen New member Username: dowen Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 3:19 pm:        Regardless of your painfully contrived reasons for posting, the fact remains that if you truly loved HH, you would not treat them the way you do. And, for the record, I don't think you are a fool or an idiot. I just think that you have allowed the wolves at Watchman to whip you into a state of anti cult hysteria. For this I pity you, but you chose to allow their venom to soak into you. As I have told you over and over, you know better, and you ARE better than this!   foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 6:30 pm:        Regardless of your painfully contrived reasons for posting, the fact remains that if you truly loved HH, you would not treat them the way you do. DO, HH doctrine is dangerous. The unquestionable authority, Submission to it = oneness with God = salvation, the thought stopping "doubting is sin," the pressure of perfectionism in everything... I saw the man at the top, "the apostle," that can not be criticized or contradicted without fear of reprisal, In my opinion, if a person can even bring himself to do it mentally without fear of jeopardizing his salvation... it would take someone willing to leave or be thrown out to do it openly. Warning others is necessary, even if it hurts the feelings of people we love. We are not trying to stop them from living out their "religion." There is nothing we have done to do that. I know as repentant as I am for having invested years of my life and the childhood of my children in support of it, (something I can not get back,) I have never told people to stop visiting and buying things there or any other thing that would jeopardize its being. I do just the opposite and encourage people to go out there and show the HH people that Christians who love God and are dedicated to Him do exist on the outside, without religious rules and the men who make them and enforce them. No one is trying to sue HH, or take away their land, end their business, or anything else. All we are doing is telling what we saw and experienced so other can hear both sides and make informed decisions. The most that might happen is people might pray for HH members and leaders. They might pray that God will shine the light of His Gospel so HH members will see. We may have even created some curiosity that could bring more visitors and buyers. Feelings are hurt... the perfect image questioned... but beyond that the best that we can hope for is that people will think twice, including HH members and leaders, and ask, "are things the way God would have them be?" And if they can be changed for the better that they would be changed, (especially the hurtful and potentially dangerous doctrines.) Like ML I have received recent e-mails and people are hurting. More than just feelings are hurt. Teenage children think God is austere and waiting to consume them, afraid to pray. People who want to leave but are afraid to leave because of the covenant they made. People who are shunned or will be shunned just because they want to go on with God outside of HH, families that are or will be separated, friendships gone, livelihoods in jeopardy, trust of all pastors and men who represent God broken, and churches in general feared. Faith shipwrecked. If these things weren't happening I could spend my time doing better things than being here on fact net. I wouldn't be crying so much and neither would those inside. God make things better for the people in HH. Help them to take a hard look at what they believe and see the dangers it presents, the abuses of authority it allows and the unbiblical ness of it. Help them to know and understand your Word and salvation. Free them from all fear of men. Give them courage to change where change is needed. Help them to leave when it is your will. Bless the members with health, safety, financially, in their relationships, and in every other way. May your will and love prevail. In Jesus name FH   common_sense New member Username: common_sense Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.142.8.212 Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 7:26 pm:        if you truly loved HH, you would not treat them the way you do. If you really loved me, then you would let me have such-and-such.....if you really loved me, then you wouldn't discipline me.....if you really loved me, then you wouldn't make me eat healthy food.......Yeah, right! My children whining it isn't any more effective or less manipulative than DOwen typing it.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 11:52 am:        Hi Folks, Actually, DOwen is making a real point. Despite disclaimers, many (not all) oppos have taken an active - 'oh, I want to help sink HH' approach. Even knowing that the HH folks are fully dedicated and sincere. This antipathy and the active attempts to do harm has come through in both posts and in background activities. Sometimes in dishonest posts about histories and sometimes in trying to be a catalyst in other ways. Now if an oppo wants to preach a different Gospel, or share their superior doctrines, or offer what they think is a more balanced community to consider .. they have plenty of space in which to share. Please .. share away, from the heart, speak and listen. Allow the Holy Spirit to minister one to another. Yet such could be done with full respect and honor the the HH brethren as Christian brother and sisters and with a ministry that is a wonderful example of charity and grace and fellowship in action. What has occurred instead is festering in a type of poison. And this is not healthy for the oppo or for anybody. A "we're ok, they're not ok" type of back-slapping, hiding the deep needs, and trying to negate the wonderful efforts of HH to live and show a true and real Christianity. And this problem of hearts in trouble, in rebellion, nurturing acrimony, is eating at the oppos who do not seek a better way. All this is very true even if you disagree with HH on this doctrine or that. Please, my dear friends, search your hearts before each and every post and sharing. Shalom, Praxaluh   usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.58.137.69 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 3:15 pm:        I have been following this forum since it's beginning and so far I have not seen any of the former members who are posting say they wished that any harm come to Homestead Heritage or it's members. Most have said they love the people there and continue to pray for them. This forum is for discussing doctrine. Even if a doctrine were pure and had no faults we would have a God given right to discuss it, even disagree with it. It's called freedom. To the self-appointed guardian of everyone else's' consciences, I'm sick and tired of watching some of you accuse others of having impure motives and thoughts. Since when can you see another's heart? Since when do you know what makes God upset? Oh yea, I forgot, we're each a part of the "body" of Christ. Maybe you are the nose hair and can tell us just which members of this forum are a stench to God? Or perhaps you are just a lot more holy than the rest? I used to be part of the group. I do not agree with their doctrines. But, I do love the people. Many of the regular members (those who are not elders or leaders) are absolutely sincere, thinking they are doing the right thing. They love one another, help each other, and are good people. Jesus died for everyone, even the people here that you don't agree with. Please, quit trying to be the all-knowing judge of each other's hearts. Discuss doctrine. Quit picking apart posts and accusing.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 1:02 pm:        Thanks for sharing, usedtobelong. One point. Many oppos have made their attitude very clear .. seeking negative media and constabulary involvement, accusing falsely in the most vicious ways and talking of their desire for the end or collapse of HH. And colluding behind the scenes to have their conspiratorial threats manifest. Yes, a lot of times this is sugar-coated with "oh, I am praying for this and that". And you apparently have seen only mostly the sugar-coat. Understood. (Ok, to be fair, there likely are some oppos who avoid the dark side mentioned above, who don't follow the leaders in acrimony and bitterness and rancor.) Shalom, Praxaluh   usedtobelong New member Username: usedtobelong Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 75.9.56.23 Posted on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 3:16 pm:        prax, I would not say they are accusing falsely, since I was there and witnessed many of the things people here have mentioned. Yes, a few posters may be a little "over the top" in their posts, but for the most part I find the records of the situations to be quite accurate. The major problems I see here are people who were never members, or have only visited, know the people on a friendship level, or knew the leaders years ago at the start of the ministry claiming to know what goes on inside. Unless you have been there, involved deeply in the everyday workings of the group you can not know the full story. It is like the levels of your relationship with a person. For example: If you'd met my dad while he was in high school you would have known he was a very good baseball player with hopes of playing in college and later in the minor or major leagues. Unless you'd continued as his friend until this day you would never know that he injured both knees in college try-outs, and his career life has taken an entirely different route. When dad married my mom he didn't want kids or pets. He is now a farmer with plenty of both! If you met my dad on the street last week you could know what he looked like, pick up on his humble manner, and maybe even learn that he likes mexican food. He could invite you to lunch twice that week and each time you'd learn a little more about him, but you may still walk away from your last lunch date not knowing what he believes, where he's been, the names of his dogs, etc. What I'm saying is knowing someone was honest, caring, and sincere in their walk with God 20-30 years ago does not mean they are still the same person today. People change. Churches change. Doctrines are revised. My little sister was the only student in her school to finish the year with a 4.0 grade average. During the graduation ceremonies the teachers all praised her efforts and even presented her with a special recognition award. Of course there were other students who were jealous and have since spread rumors that the reason B did so well in math was that she used a calculator for her homework, etc. But all of those rumors were false. They were not at her house in the evenings to see that she labored till late in the evening, working each problem manually, without a calculator. They did not see her staying up till midnight, studying for tests in English and science. They just made assumptions based on what they felt must be right. How else could she have gotten everything right? It certainly couldn't be because she worked hard! They weren't there. They didn't know. When people visit HH (or any other church/organization) and then claim they know the intent of the group, the heart of the people etc, it bothers me. Then you have differing stories and experiences. The son of an elder leaves and he's probably going to receive an entirely different treatment than someone who is a regular member, without family ties to the group. Just because their stories differ doesn't mean one of them is made up. You may love Whataburger hamburgers, but personally, I won't eat there because my mom once found a roach in one of their burgers. Telling someone here that their story is just a bunch of lies and fabrications would be like telling my mom she didn't really find a roach in her burger; she's only saying that cause one day when she ordered curly fries they didn't have any and she got "embittered" and is still making false claims.   praxaluh New member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 Posted on Friday, June 01, 2007 - 7:48 am:        Hi usedtobelong, And it is not my style to say that people are telling a "bunch of lies and fabrications". Those are the exceptions. Yet sometimes there is a terrible, heinous whopper that needs desperately to be corrected. (It may be written in a type of blind, ignorant acrimony and deception rather than as a deliberate, conscious lie, however when that happens to the nth degree - the distinction is without a difference.) We have that situation right now. We had one a while back as well. Situations like that are very, very grievous. However must of the things people relate are perception more than truth and falsehood. (Many are doctrinal, but on that the oppos are simply all over the map. None really has a consistent fellowship or community or doctrinal view that they offer as their 'alternative' that is appealing and sensible.) Many things related are a "I'm ok, your ok, they are not ok" type of psychobabble. Those of course are a bit transparent. However most of the relating of events, while colored and tinged some, while aspects can be conveniently forgotten or omitted, are not written as lies. Not at all. The person is emphasizing events in a way that puts themselves in a good light and HH ministry in a negative light. However, they are not lying. They really feel they were not treated fairly or this should have been that way, and they say so. They are speaking what they believe is essentially truthful, albeit with maximum tinge and with an agenda and with much selectively. btw, I have discussed this in the past here so for now I will leave it like that. Shalom, Praxaluh

Add Your Message Here Post: -Color- Black Red Green Blue Yellow Purple Orange Cyan Gray White -Font- Arial Courier Symbol Times Verdana -Size- Smallest (-2) Small (-1) Normal Large (+1) Largest (+2) Username: Posting Information: This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here. Password: Options: Enable HTML code in message Automatically activate URLs in message Action: