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     free_indeed (free_indeed) New member Username: free_indeed Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.128.178.212 |
I have been watching this message board since its inception with great interest.I know that the purpose of it was to give sincere inquirers about Homestead Heritage a place where they could go to find out about the doctrine and the experiences of those who had been there and left. Before now, there was nowhere for anyone to go to find out any information about them before making life changine decisions entailed in becoming a part of them. We all know that going to them was certainly not the way to find out the truth. Now we know that the Watchman Fellowship was there, but many did not know that then and many don't know it now. I am very thankful for Watchman Fellowship and for Factnet and this message board for providing this forum. I wish that we had had it available to us before making a decision that was so tragic for our family. I appreciate those who have courageously come forward to expose the doctrine and practices of this group, even at the risk of being falsely accused of being liars. I know many families who have left HH after suffering unspeakable abuse from those professing to be Christians. I have seen families so damaged and torn apart that they will never be healed short of a miracle. I have seen young people leave and go off into drugs, alcohol, and immorality and want nothing to do with God after seeing the hypocrisy, legalism, and abuse that they grew up with and having been raised to believe that this was God's way. I know that there are many people still in there who are agonizing over what they are being told and taught and what they are seeing and living that is the reality in there. This has happened to every one of us that has left. But for many reasons, which I totally understand, they are afraid to leave. I hope that they are reading this message board and that it is helping them to have the courage to come out. (They were probably told not to read it just as we were told not to read any books on spiritual abuse because it would "confuse us".) I hope that they can see that there are people who know exactly what they are going through that are here for them, to support them and love them and point the way to truth and healing. Healing is a long process after an experience where thought control is so cleverly effected by people you love and trust. It also is true that after being "in prison" for so long, sometimes freedom can be a frightening thing. One of the things that is heartbreaking to see in there is the way that they take away the manhood of men. When you first go in as a situational member, no matter how mature a Christian you may be, they teach that you are as a babe in Christ and that you are not even capable of having complete authority over your own family. The "Brothers" have the authority over your family. What a sad testimony to have to ask the "Brothers" permission to have a family stay with you, to ask the "Brothers" if you can move to a certain place, to ask the "Brothers" if you can take your family on a vacation, or to ask the "Brothers" if your daughter can marry a certain person and when; or worse, be told who your daughter should marry and when, even if it is against her wishes and the wishes of her family. They will argue that they never do this, but the reality is, "Go pray until you agree with us and then we can say you made the choice willingly." What a joke! What kind of man can stay in a place where they are no longer the heads of their households but always subject to what the "Brothers" say? What kind of man will allow themselves to be publicly humiliated in a Sunday meeting before hundreds of people in front of his wife and children, or worse still, allow it to be done to his wife or children and say NOTHING? What kind of man will keep his family in a place where many young women will never be able to marry and have children of their own, but will be worked to death in the center or as servants in elders' homes and told in a Sunday meeting by women in leadership who have families of their own how wonderful it is to be chosen as a "single sister". What kind of man can hear his daughters weep because they will never have what all young women long for, a husband and children, and still keep them in that place? What kind of man can keep his family in a place where Blair and Regina Adams determine whether of not they wear flowered prints or what kinds of socks they should wear or whether or not they should wear denim jumpers? What kind of man will allow Blair Adams to ridicule that man's teen age sons publicly in Sunday meetings because they like cowboy boots and western buckles and western ways, while all the while, he has a young man staying up late at night for days to make custom chaps for him and his own son for a brief visit to the church's ranch in New Mexico? What hypocrisy! It is pathetic to see! Some men like having their decisions made for them as a way of escaping personal responsibility. Some men never get into the Word of God and check out the faulty teaching that other fallible men have the right to make decisions for their families. And some men know there is something wrong, but are too weak to buck the stronger personalities of the leadership. Some men are so enamored of the lifestyle in HH that they put doubts aside and ignore the Word of God. Some men there become tyrants and treat their wives ands children badly because, at least at home behind closed doors, they can feel like a man, so they become hardened, rigid, and even cruel. How can men allow themselves to become so emasculated! The stronger men see the error of it and get out of there where they can once again have the biblical place in their families. It is particularly tragic when a man sees the truth and leaves and his wife refuses to leave with him. They may continue to live in the same house or even divorce, but it causes their children to have to take sides and it destroys the family. At that point, the wife has given her love, loyalty, and faithfulness to the "Brothers" and to the group and is practicing spiritual adultery. She is told that the covenant with the group is with God and is a higher covenant than her marriage covenant and that she must obey the higher covenant. "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God." I Corinthians 11:3 When they tell men that their authority over them is themselves as Christ come in the flesh, that is an out and out twisting of scripture and a lie!" "And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:4,5 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 As we have been together with people who have come out, we can see that there is a need to talk and talk and talk it out after years of being afraid to say anything about what they saw and experienced. You can only talk to someone else who has been there and been through it too because no one else can understand. It is that deeply damaging. It takes a lot of talking to help you sort out the lies and deception and the hypocrisy that you lived with day in and day out. It helps to talk it out to get over the fear that has been instilled in you. As time goes by, and as you learn what the Word of God really says, the need to talk becomes less and less. As you heal and your life goes on, you find that you can help others who are now going through the process. One day, you discover that you rarely think about it any more and you are finally "free indeed". You find that your freedom in Christ is the freedom to love and obey Him simply because you know Him and His Word and not because of a long process dictated by others who profess to be on a self-exalted and more spiritual level than anyone else. It is like a heavy load off of your shoulders to know that there is nothing you can do or what others tell you to do that can save you. Only your love for and faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross is your salvation. Your obedience to Him is so personal, not through anyone else, and it brings you such joy. He is all you need! It is truly a paradox when you are in a situation like HH. I can remember feeling like there was a war going on in my heart. I knew what the truth was, abut I was being told by those I had come to know and love and trust, a different truth. I was being told what to say to outsiders who would ask questions and I knew that they were lies. But for whatever reason; pride, fear, whatever, I would give glowing reports to my family or anyone who would ask and tell them how wonderful it was. After all, if you looked at the beautiful crafts, the lifestyle, the false image of a paradise they had created of a simpler life, it all looked so wonderful and no one would believe me if I told them otherwise. How could I admit that we had made a terrible mistake, that it was all an image put forth that covered a living hell, that I had taken my family into this? So when people who are in there smile and say how wonderful it is, they may or may not be telling you the truth. There are some who have given themselves over to it for whatever reason. But, believe me when I say that there are others, those who are more honest, who are tormented inside. When you begin to see the inconsistencies, you have a choice to make. You can either give yourself over to it and live the lie, or you will become so distraught that you will eventually leave. If you give yourself to the lies, eventually your heart will become hardened. "He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight. Psalm 101:7 So let us focus on our purpose. Let us join together in our desire to see others free from spiritual tyranny and abuse. There are many, many little children who are being taught false doctrine andwho are being raised in circumstances that are frightening. (I have stood outside the doors of a Sunday meeting with tiny children weeping in fear of what was going on inside.) Many will one day leave unsaved, having never heard the Gospel, and may never know God. We owe it to them and to our brothers and sisters to be faithful in fighting for them and for those who might be deceived in the future. The annual craft fair in Waco (Elm Mott) over the Thanksgivisng weekend is coming up soon. Please share this message with anyone you know who might be visiting or thinking of going so that they can be prepared and forewarned. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 | ||
| meye_view (meye_view) New member Username: meye_view Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 12.65.162.163 |
Amen! | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Free Indeed, You expressed what I feel better than I could. Thanks for doing it. Under Grace | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 337 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
Dear "Free Indeed", Jesus said "love your enemies". How is the above diatribe loving the good people of Homestead Heritage? Your words have angered me so much that I am literally shaking. Why do you return all the love that you received at HH with the lies that comprise the bulk of your above post? You are breaking the heart of God when you attack his Children, I beg of you stop your lies. Please read this article, it's the same one 'Pureheart' posted earlier. http://www.antioch.com.sg/th/twp/bookbyte/heretic/ | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 338 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
"I know many families who have left HH after suffering unspeakable abuse from those professing to be Christians. I have seen families so damaged and torn apart that they will never be healed short of a miracle." Nothing but a lie. Sorry to be blunt, but it is a lie. "I have seen young people leave and go off into drugs, alcohol, and immorality and want nothing to do with God after seeing the hypocrisy, legalism, and abuse that they grew up with and having been raised to believe that this was God's way." Some young people did do these things, but not because they "saw hypocrisy, legalism and abuse" and believed that those things were "God's way". "I know that there are many people still in there who are agonizing over what they are being told and taught and what they are seeing and living that is the reality in there." How can you possibly know that "many" people feel that way? You shouldn't speak so cavalierly. "...just as we were told not to read any books on spiritual abuse because it would "confuse us". That is silly. Surely you don't expect us to believe that.......? "What a sad testimony to have to ask the "Brothers" permission to have a family stay with you, to ask the "Brothers" if you can move to a certain place, to ask the "Brothers" if you can take your family on a vacation, or to ask the "Brothers" if your daughter can marry a certain person and when; or worse, be told who your daughter should marry and when, even if it is against her wishes and the wishes of her family. They will argue that they never do this, but the reality is, "Go pray until you agree with us and then we can say you made the choice willingly." What a joke! " Now, THESE kind of accusations are what makes me angry! The writer of the above viscious lies knows that his/her words are baseless and un-true. Shame on you! "What kind of man can stay in a place where they are no longer the heads of their households but always subject to what the "Brothers" say?" Lie. "What kind of man will allow themselves to be publicly humiliated in a Sunday meeting before hundreds of people in front of his wife and children, or worse still, allow it to be done to his wife or children and say NOTHING? This makes no sense. People were NEVER randomly chosen to be "humiliated" publicly. You need to retract that statement or clarify it. "What kind of man will keep his family in a place where many young women will never be able to marry and have children of their own, but will be worked to death in the center or as servants in elders' homes and told in a Sunday meeting by women in leadership who have families of their own how wonderful it is to be chosen as a "single sister"." Oh my! Now you are accusing HH of having servants! You are a LIAR and you know it! May God have mercy on you! "What kind of man can hear his daughters weep because they will never have what all young women long for, a husband and children, and still keep them in that place?" Um, this also doesn't make any sense, please clarify or retract. "What kind of man can keep his family in a place where _____ and ______ _____ determine whether or not they wear flowered prints or what kinds of socks they should wear or whether or not they should wear denim jumpers?" Just more lies. I could go on down the rest of the post but I think you get my point. What enrages me is you are taking it upon yourself judge an entire group of people! What you have done in your above tirade is you have made a mockery of men like my dad, and many others. You say HH steals men of their manhood, but what does your above diatribe do to them? How dare you! How dare you even put forward the idea that HH forces young girls to be "servants" or never get married! HOW DARE YOU! You may be well meaning (I doubt it) but when you write trash like you did above it breaks Jesus' heart. | ||
| person (person) New member Username: person Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 66.53.85.217 |
Wow! Dowen attacks everybody. Seems pretty mean to me. If he is an appologist for this HH group, he needs to be replaced. | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 339 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
Actually, I am a nice guy (I think  ) but when I see people, especially my family, being falsely accused I become very angry. I speak only from my own heart and I am not associated with or sponsored by HH. Mr. Person, don't you find it a bit odd though that this "in freedom" person hasn't a problem telling about the so called sins of others, yet hides his own identity? He want't us to take his words as the gospel truth, yet we don't even know who he is! Is it mean of me to demand that if he/she wants me to take him/her seriously I should at least know who he/she is? Is that mean? Is it mean of me to stand up for what I KNOW to be the truth? Is it mean of me to call a spade a spade? | ||
| person (person) New member Username: person Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.150.226.125 |
If you are not associated with or sponsored by HH, how is this an accusation of your family? | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 340 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
Ahh wiseguy! Good one. You suggested I may be the apologist for HH. I just wanted you to know I am not. I do have family there but I am not a member of HH, hence I am not 'associated' with them. Please answer the questions I put forth in my last posting. | ||
| person (person) New member Username: person Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 67.150.226.26 |
I don't find it odd at all. Seems like most people on here or any other message board who relate personal experiencess are usually anonymous. Don't have a problem with it. You do seem a bit demanding but are probably a nice guy. | ||
| truthbuyer (truthbuyer) Intermediate Member Username: truthbuyer Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.82.193.39 |
Dowen, just so you know that what Freeindeed wrote isn't so unusual in modern religious circles, I have written the piece below based on my experiences outside of HH. Also, just so you know, I also know personally one family who busted up. No, not officially while they were members of HH. They first resign their membership, get divorced, then the faithful ones renew their membership. That way, HH can actually say that they have never had a divorce in HH. (This has already been alluded to before on this site) Please, don't attempt to tell me I am a liar. Your rhetoric grew old months ago and carries no weight. And to answer your other question about how others can say these types of things, Solomon said that the wounds of a friend are faithful, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Sometimes there are situations which require the truth to be told. This truth can be painful, not the easiest thing to accept. And those who can do this properly are rightly motivated by Love. It's not something they look forward to doing with some sort of warped glee, but it must be done. And I Sought a Man.......... Where Have All the Men Gone? As the Mission and Vision of Foundation state, it’s a tough thing to observe, up close or from afar, the strands of life unravel in individual lives and families. Too many times, I have painfully watched as the gut –wrenching process of destruction takes its toll on those aware of what is happening to them, but prevented, for whatever reason, from accessing the help they so desperately need and desire. Knowing that everything around them is falling apart, they frantically yearn for the answers, and while looking, grab at the first shiny possibility to flash itself before them. It’s only after the results of their chase that they realize the empty and dire consequences of their choice and, immediately and even more desperately, begin to search for a way off of the hook as destruction reels them in. While watching this scenario take place many times through the years, I’ve noticed one thing common to a number of these situations. Regardless of the path chosen to destruction, it is spearheaded by the efforts of weak men, unwittingly acting the emotionally led part of a woman. These men have been convinced that acknowledging and identifying with their emotions and those of their wife (among other things) is the key to godly leadership in a man, almost never realizing that this thought pattern leads to an almost complete role reversal whereby the man, declaring himself to be the leader of the home, effectively becomes the emasculated helpmeet for his wife. This perversion of God’s ordained order is understandable. God’s people have adopted the world’s model of family structure. Men supposedly standing behind pulpits and other places of God’s alleged place of authority have promoted for too many years the blending of rock solid principles with the ever adaptable philosophies of the world regarding marriage and the family. And men supposedly standing in God’s proper place of authority as Husband and Father have purchased the promotion of this diabolically explosive mixture under extreme pressure to conform. Aligned with spiritually pure motives, this detour from God’s way leads to worldly results, as God offers his perfect will toward the back of those proceeding away from Him. Gone is any notion of inner confidence in what the Word of God actually says. In its place is the deceptive conformation to what accountability partners think about their particular situation. Mere men and their peer pressure substitute for the Lord Jesus Christ and His blessing according to His Word. The potential repercussions of not pleasing men rule over the eternal thoughts of a Holy God. Getting along and not rocking the boat transcend the potential frown of our Heavenly Father. The Almighty is effectively relegated to the role of Consultant as the directives and wisdom of men is elevated to the place of first consort. Novel is the idea that Man was created to fulfill the will of God with Woman given to assist him in this divine task. Archaic is the truth that the man is the leader of the family. Unworkable is the fact that God’s authority within the family flows through the man because of his position of headship. Tyrannical is the possibility that a man could or would determine particular action to be taken or not taken by family members. Legalistic is the man that would dare arrive at a definite conclusion from the Word of God. Unloving is the man daring to utter the word “no” to anyone in his family. Barbaric is the father issuing proper discipline to family members. Manipulative is the man openly protecting his family from destructive influences. Oppressive is the man learning about his wife in order to compassionately demonstrate the love of Christ to her. Dictatorial is the father setting the tone of nurture and admonition toward his children. Blind is the man taking preventive action for the long-term benefit of his family. Insubordinate is the man ignoring the advice of church leadership which contradicts the Word of God regarding the family. Stubborn is the man refusing to conform to worldly church policy regarding family activities which cannot be supported by Scripture. Troublesome is the man not accepting official church doctrine regarding family lifestyle when it contradicts Scripture. Rebel is the man daring to act as the head of his household rather than the local Pastor or other leaders. Foolish is the man trusting God’s Word for what He says rather than the exalted customs and traditions of the local congregation. Presumptuous is the man acting simply because the Word of God tells him to and promises God’s blessing upon such action. Misguided is the man who correctly concludes that having his own house in order is a major prerequisite for entering the ministry of God. And impossible is a husband and father repenting and seeking forgiveness from his family for sinful actions performed by him. The modern ministers of today have so muddied the waters of Bible doctrine about the roles within the family that men aren’t sure what to think, say or do. Men need to quit being afraid of thinking and acting like the men God has created them to be. There’s nothing wrong with confessing sin and shortcomings before a Holy God. He commands us to! He also commands us to study and meditate on His Word. He has promised to provide the wisdom needed in every situation as we seek Him in Faith. There’s nothing unmanly about doing so. God commands us to seek His Truth and resolutely stand upon His Eternal Truths. Nowhere are we allowed by God to run roughshod over anyone. Neither are we prevented by God from properly dealing with those who would run roughshod over our family. God created man to protect those under his care. And back you up, He will do. If these modern ministers desire to push away those committed to the proper administration of His care over the souls committed to them as husbands and fathers, they do so with God’s promise of destruction. And that is exactly what they are getting. Though almost all would vehemently deny such a statement, most leaders today preside over congregations full of families in various states of disarray and destruction because of the official ignorance of those in positions of authority within the congregation. And because of this ignorance, they willingly accept faulty educational information officially offered as a benefit to their family. That applies to the leaders of the corporate congregation as well as the heads of individual households. Contrary to what is officially taught, though, these situations didn’t occur or arise from thin air. There was and always is a definite cause. And all the spiritual activity in this world will not alleviate this reality, nor will it correct the root cause. Until men return to God’s established ways and methods, which are uniquely tailored to His people, the responsibilities of these same men will continue to self-destruct because the blessing of God can only manifest itself to the degree that ungodly ways and methods are absent and the ways and methods of God are implemented. Until then, men will only wish they were men. There are those, fortunately, that have courageously accepted the call of God to live their lives in a godly fashion. Desiring to know what their Lord would have them do, they have begun to shape their lives according to the revelation of God’s infallible Word. Though not always easy or popular, work that brings the blessing of Christ is, nevertheless, worthwhile for them and their families. Many times these men are not popular, especially among church leaders. Though often accused of being independent thinkers and disrespectful toward authority, they strive to meet the loving standards put forth by the Head of the Ecclesia, Jesus Christ. Being accepted in the beloved is worth far more than the temporal acceptance of worldly leaders of the sheep. Though not perfectly perfect, they make fine Husbands and Fathers while in this earthly realm. | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Dowen.... “Dear "Free Indeed", Jesus said "love your enemies". How is the above diatribe loving the good people of Homestead Heritage? Your words have angered me so much that I am literally shaking. Why do you return all the love that you received at HH with the lies that comprise the bulk of your above post? You are breaking the heart of God when you attack his Children, I beg of you stop your lies.” UG...How many times can you contradict yourself in one post? You consider me an enemy and yet you say all kinds of horrible things about me. I am a “liar’ “worse the the terrorists of 9/11” “son of Korah” just to name a few. You have also said I am your “enemy” so if you treat your enemies this way why are you lecturing Free-Indeed. “Why do you return all the love that you received at HH with the lies that comprise the bulk of your above post?” HELLO! Did you read the same post I did? It does not sound at all like FI received much love. I do not doubt this post breaks your heart Daniel, I know you won’t believe me but I am sorry. The heart of God is breaking over what is going on in HH but it is for the same reason his heart broke when he had to send Nathan to King David. Truth can sometimes hurt and what Free-Indeed shared is the truth. It is not an “attack on his Children” it is the Two-Edged Sword of Truth that cuts with one side and brings healing with the other. It is the wound of a friend. Dowen...... "I know many families who have left HH after suffering unspeakable abuse from those professing to be Christians. I have seen families so damaged and torn apart that they will never be healed short of a miracle." “Nothing but a lie. Sorry to be blunt, but it is a lie.” UG...How I wish this was not so. Daniel you simply have not sat down with family after family coming out of HH and seen the devastation that occurs in their lives. Like Free-Indeed I have been with these families suffering from “abuse” and “hurts”. You feel helpless and sometimes there is the feeling that the hurts run so deep nothing short of miracle will bring the healing you hope for them. You speak about which you know not of D.. It is not a lie. Dowen...."I have seen young people leave and go off into drugs, alcohol, and immorality and want nothing to do with God after seeing the hypocrisy, legalism, and abuse that they grew up with and having been raised to believe that this was God's way." “Some young people did do these things, but not because they "saw hypocrisy, legalism and abuse" and believed that those things were "God's way" “ UG.....Another way to say it is..... many of the young people leave (HH) and get into drugs, alcohol. etc....because they know they cannot live up to what they have been told Christianity is. They were not able to measure up to what they thought it meant to be a Christian. The end result is the same and it is common amoung many different groups that preach a system of laws (HH also calls them patterns) instead of Grace. Once a person comes out from the law they say to themselves “Since I am going to hell any way I may as well do whatever I want”. Until they (the young folks) come to know that the way to uphold the law is accepting God’s Grace through faith as the writer of Romans says RO 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. RO 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Dowen...."I know that there are many people still in there who are agonizing over what they are being told and taught and what they are seeing and living that is the reality in there." “How can you possibly know that "many" people feel that way? You shouldn't speak so cavalierly.” UG.....I don’t know how Free-Indeed knows, but I know people feel that because that is the way I felt and many of former members felt before they came out. Dowen...."...just as we were told not to read any books on spiritual abuse because it would "confuse us". “That is silly. Surely you don't expect us to believe that.......?” UG...When I was in HH we were told not to read any books, newspapers, magazines on any subject unless you were working on JS research team. That maybe “silly” but it is the truth. Dowen..... "What a sad testimony to have to ask the "Brothers" permission to have a family stay with you, to ask the "Brothers" if you can move to a certain place, to ask the "Brothers" if you can take your family on a vacation, or to ask the "Brothers" if your daughter can marry a certain person and when; or worse, be told who your daughter should marry and when, even if it is against her wishes and the wishes of her family. They will argue that they never do this, but the reality is, "Go pray until you agree with us and then we can say you made the choice willingly." What a joke! " “Now, THESE kind of accusations are what makes me angry! The writer of the above viscious lies knows that his/her words are baseless and un-true. Shame on you!” UG......You were not married raising a family in HH. These things were not a part of your experience but by no means were they lies. You have heard many similar testimonies from me and many other former members regarding their experiences in HH on this discussion board. Again I am sorry that you are angry. I wish these things were not true and this board did not need to be here. You can call these experiences “viscious lies” “baseless and un-true” but it does not negate the truth just because you want it to be so. Dowen..."What kind of man can stay in a place where they are no longer the heads of their households but always subject to what the "Brothers" say?" “Lie.” UG..Again Daniel you have never been a head of a household in HH. Many former members will testify that what Free-Indeed says is true including me. Dowen..."What kind of man will allow themselves to be publicly humiliated in a Sunday meeting before hundreds of people in front of his wife and children, or worse still, allow it to be done to his wife or children and say NOTHING? “This makes no sense. People were NEVER randomly chosen to be "humiliated" publicly. You need to retract that statement or clarify it.” UG..This time what you say is true. People in HH are “NEVER randomly chosen to be “humiliated” publicly.” They are very specifically chosen because they have broken one of the laws, then they are “humiliated” publicly. Dowen..."What kind of man will keep his family in a place where many young women will never be able to marry and have children of their own, but will be worked to death in the center or as servants in elders' homes and told in a Sunday meeting by women in leadership who have families of their own how wonderful it is to be chosen as a "single sister"." “Oh my! Now you are accusing HH of having servants! You are a LIAR and you know it! May God have mercy on you!” UG... It is not a secret that the single sisters are “servants” in the center and in the Elder’s household. While I was there GL, BA, HW and others had “single sisters as servants” in their households. How could you not know that Dowen? It is no secret and was never hidden from the members in HH. Dowen.."What kind of man can keep his family in a place where _____ and ______ _____ determine whether or not they wear flowered prints or what kinds of socks they should wear or whether or not they should wear denim jumpers?" “Just more lies. I could go on down the rest of the post but I think you get my point.” UG...D.. where do you think the laws come from? Who determined that women could wear knee socks or panty hose or nothing, but could not wear ankle socks because that would draw undo attention to their legs. Men can wear short sleeve shirts or long sleeve shirts, but cannot wear a long sleeve shirt rolled up half way because that might draw attention to their muscles. Who determined that married couples can not wear wedding rings any more? Those laws came from Blair and/or Regina Adams. You know that. Dowen...“How dare you! How dare you even put forward the idea that HH forces young girls to be "servants" or never get married! HOW DARE YOU!” UG...You are right HH does not force girls to be servants or not to get married. These precious young sisters become servants voluntary. They do not marry because there are not enough young men to marry them all and they can not marry outside the fellowship and still remain a member. The point is would they choose to do these things if they knew their salvation does not depend on it? You defend HH and your family with passion. I have and do admire that. The Truth can set you free. Believing a lie can keep you in bondage. “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." I do not believe this post given by Free-Indeed is a lie. Dowen please let the truth set you free and join me........... Under Grace | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
When Christians Hurt You We are not alone in the pain we feel when others hurt and betray us. Jesus shares that experience and the emotions with us. Through Him we overcome. by Elaine Ingalls Hogg "God, I thought they were Christians! How could they do this?" A difference of opinion arose among Christians in my local church and somehow I got caught in the middle of the conflict. I was struggling. How do I deal with this? Jesus wasn't the only person who was hurt by a follower of Christ. I wanted to move on and, with God's help, forgive and forget. I wanted to rise above the situation, but it kept dragging me down. During those unguarded moments when I would see a friend who looked the other way when our paths crossed in the local mall, or when I would wake up in the middle of the night with the memories swimming around in my head, I had to fight back the tears and sense of loss. We may not like to admit it, but misunderstandings and differences of opinions are not isolated incidents in our churches. They happen far too often, and a few years ago it happened to me. I don't want to focus on the details of the dispute and hurt, but rather on how God helped me forgive, heal and forget. You might argue that I haven't really forgotten the whole incident, but one of the meanings I found in the dictionary for the world "forget" was "to leave behind." With God's help, that's what I've been able to do. I first attended church as a child. I would listen eagerly as our Sunday school teacher used flannelgraph pictures to illustrate Bible stories. The people in my church were very nurturing. They helped my parents when my dad fell and broke his leg, leaving him unable to work. They prayed for my healing when I was in the hospital for two months with a life-threatening illness. These people became my extended family. One Sunday evening as I listened to the pastor's message, I learned how deep my heavenly Father's love is for me, so I repented of my sin and accepted His invitation for salvation. I was still young, so it came as a surprise to me when I was let down by people I trusted, who called themselves followers of Christ. My struggle with hurt and unforgiveness continued until one day a few years ago when I was reading the Easter story. The Scripture spoke to me in a way it never had before. Jesus was hurt too. He was openly rejected by the world. He was also wounded by His own followers: Judas betrayed Him; Thomas doubted Him, and Peter denied that he knew Him. "How awful," I remember saying as I read. "Jesus, you too were betrayed by one of your own." As I pondered this, I realized Jesus understands my feelings, and as I read further, the words of a familiar story brought a new truth. Jesus wasn't the only person who was hurt by a follower of Christ. In the garden of Gethsemane, the apostle Peter cut off the ear of Malcus, the servant of the high priest. According to Luke 22:51, Jesus said, "No more of this!" Then He touched the man's ear and healed him. At that moment while I was reading, I sensed the presence of this same Jesus who reached down and touched me. "No more of this," He said. Right there and then, He healed me of the old wounds and made me whole. I too was touched by Christ, and His healing brought genuine forgiveness and the ability to forget. "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you" (Colossians 3:13 NIV). http://www.christianity.ca/faith/spiritual-growth/2005/08.000.html | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
In the morning when I rise, give me Jesus And when I am alone, give me Jesus And when I am afraid, give me Jesus You can have all this world, but give me Jesus | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 341 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
Under_Grace, I will leave your above post to the wind, where it belongs. The question you need to answer is whether or not the members of HH are Christians. (Message edited by dowen on November 13, 2005) | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.93.158 |
free_indeed, you described exactly what happens at a similar cult where I was. I never, never imagined I could respect my husband so much as when he led us out of there! We were only there 10 months and he saw so many, many problems immediately, but the one you mentioned was the very first one. At first I was completely blind to it, but after I saw men verbally torn limb from limb in front of their wives and little children -- well, it's hard to miss it then. It was awful. The women picked up on it too, and though they paid lip service to respecting their husbands, most didn't (though a few feared them). I've seen Baptist ladies prayer groups who knew more about respecting husbands than these ladies. It was sad. | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.93.158 |
I should have mentioned that reason I said Baptist ladies groups is that New Life (my old group) feels they are SO far above denominations. Plus I really have been in Baptist ladies groups where respect for husbands was a BIG issue and a lot of ladies had a lot of wisdom on it. I wasn't one of them, though. I was a huge fool on this subject until recently. If I had been wiser we would never have gone to New Life. | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.93.158 |
I should have mentioned that reason I said Baptist ladies groups is that my old group feels they are SO far above denominations. Plus I really have been in Baptist ladies groups where respect for husbands was a BIG issue and a lot of ladies had a lot of wisdom on it. I wasn't one of them, though. I was a huge fool on this subject until recently. If I had been wiser we would never have gone to New Life. | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Dowen........ Under_Grace, “I will leave your above post to the wind, where it belongs. The question you need to answer is whether or not the members of HH are Christians.” Glad to answer that question. The simple answer is yes. The ones I know and left behind are. That would include your Dad and Mom, your Uncle and Aunt to name those closest to you. From getting to know your extended family and many others while a member of HH most of them were Christians before they joined HH. I believe your mom, uncle BN and SN were Baptists (I could be wrong I am remembering a conversation at a picnic with your mom or your aunt). From talking with your grandfather your dad was carried to meetings everywhere, though your grandfather started out Baptist also. As you know I have I high respect for your grandfather and your dad (a rich Christian heritage and legacy that has been passed on to you). Many of the others came from various backgrounds before joining HH and most of them were evangelical CHRISTIANS that were Christians when they joined HH. and my belief is that in spite of what they believe now, remain Christians. Here is what I believe happened to the dear Saints in Homestead Heritage. GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! (Homestead Heritage) Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law (HH temple patterns), or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Daniel Homestead Heritage preaches that salvation comes from observing the law. If they do not preach that why did the leadership tell me that if I left HH I would lose my salvation.? Why do they repeat that message over and over to those they disfellowship or leave on their own accord. Please do not bother your attempt at calling us liars for speaking the truth. If you wanted to look them up you would find not a few disgruntled people but hundreds of people that have left HH thinking that leaving means losing their salvation. As Free-Indeed said some are able to move on after talk and talk and talk. Many become shipped wrecked in their faith. Before you say it I know that some are going to fall away no matter what church they join and that is true in HH as well. However, one huge difference is that most people coming into HH were and are strong committed Christians. When they leave they are hurt and torn not knowing what to believe. Bottom line, yes I think there are many Christians in HH fellowship. I think many stay because of fear of losing their salvation or family or both. Some stay because they are comfortable with having their decisions made for them. Some stay because they are genuinely deceived. Ironic isn’t it? I do think the people I know in HH are Christians. The people in HH think I am eternally lost because I left and have no intentions of ever coming back. How do I know this? Because they have told me so on many occasions. Not to fret I have tremendous hope. Someday we will be reconciled. My prayer is it is on this side of eternity but if not my HH brothers will have to make room for a few more of us than they anticipated. Until then I am happy to be on this side of eternity constantly.......... Under Grace P.S. I think I like my post on the wind I hope the wind will carry it to the people it could help the most. | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.65 |
Dowen...... “Mr. Person, don't you find it a bit odd though that this "in freedom" person hasn't a problem telling about the so called sins of others, yet hides his own identity? He want't us to take his words as the gospel truth, yet we don't even know who he is! Is it mean of me to demand that if he/she wants me to take him/her seriously I should at least know who he/she is? Is that mean? Is it mean of me to stand up for what I KNOW to be the truth? Is it mean of me to call a spade a spade?” UG.... Here you go again with your pre-occupation of needing to know the identity of those posting. I have been thinking on this and I have made on observation.. Several of us have stated before that you have no problem with Absolute Real Truth not revealing his identity. Your reasoning for having no problem with ART is “he is not attacking the church” or another words he agrees with everything you say. We have been over that. It occurred to me that unlike Free-Indeed and Under Grace you know who Truth Hunter is and you call him a LIAR, NIMROD ETC. You say you can not take anything he says as truth. So as you and ART like to say your “agenda has been exposed”. It does not matter if you know the identity of a poster or not if he or she disagrees with you they are just liars and you can not take them seriously. For the record I have told you that I admire you Dowen for boldly putting your name on your posts. I also want to state for the record that I admire Truth Hunter (JC) for putting his name behind his post. Truth Hunter has survived an onslaught of attacks on and off this discussion board for sharing his experiences while in HH. I know he has bared his heart and soul. It is painful stuff that he has shared. I was not in HH when he was going through most what he has written and I can not verify details but I know his heart and admire his willingness to put himself out there with everyone knowing who he is. Like you Dowen he has not backed down or backed up. It can not be for personal gain as there is no fun and no money in taking the verbal attacks he has taken. My hats off to you Truth Hunter. My conclusion Dowen is that “to reveal or not to reveal is not the question”. Your across the board denial of every experience of ex-members of HH has nothing to do with whether you know who they are. It has everything to do with what they say. It is like the old joke “How do you know when a politician is lying? Watch him real close and if his lips start to move, you know he is lying.” That is the way you feel about most of the ex-members. That is OK. Just don’t try to hide behind the identity because it is not true. I can not say it better than you...“Is it mean of me to stand up for what I KNOW to be the truth? Is it mean of me to call a spade a spade?” I don’t think so. God Bless you and may He always keep you............ Under Grace | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Dowen asked, "The question you need to answer is whether or not the members of HH are Christians." I would like to say I agree with UG, that there are christians in HH. However, based upon my experiences in HH , I get the feeling that Dowen is not asking a sincere Question. If I was in Dowen's position, and defending HH, and I was following their tactics, this is what I would do. I would want anybody coming against my Cult to judge the individuals so that I could distract from the doctrine, abuse and hypocrisy. In doing so I could blur the reality of the truth, that HH doctrine is not christian, based on the fact that they teach salvation through submission to the leadership of HH. If I could get any of my so called attackers to judge the hearts of the members of HH , they would also be standing in the place of God, a place where no man can stand. Knowing this, but without seeing my own hypocrisy I would then turn this on them. I have to agree with Free Indeed, and say that even though I often engaged in this type of deceit and distraction with visitors and family, I always felt horrible about it, as I hope Dowen does. | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
The Bible commends a life of balance. We are to speak the truth, but we are to speak it in love……We are to desire neither poverty nor riches, we’re to embrace neither fullness nor want (Proverbs 30:7-9). We are to bear one another’s burdens; we are to bear our own (Galatians 6:2-5). Salvation is a free gift; good deeds must necessarily accompany it (Ephesians 2:8-10). The eternal Gospel is good news; but it is news of fear and judgment (Revelation 14:6-7). We are to hate the sin; we are to love the sinner (Jude 21-23). We are in the world; we are not of the world (John 17:15-16). Faith is not of works, but without works, faith is dead (James 2:26). Biblical balance is a happy melding of devotion and action, being and doing, patience and passion. It manifests word and deed, faith and works, forgiveness and discipline. It carefully integrates the inner life and the outer life. It makes quite conviction the natural companion of strident confession. It enables the head to coincide with the heart. Without compromising God’s grace it reveres God’s decrees. Without suppressing spiritual liberty, it upholds spiritual responsibility. We should all strive to maintain a Biblical balance. | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
bump | ||
| seekingglory Intermediate Member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 157 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.130.158 |
bump | ||
| h75 Junior Member Username: h75 Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
When Abraham offered Lot the first choice of the land, Lot’s eyes were drawn to a well-watered region that was “like the garden of God”. It must have seemed to be the perfect place to settle his family, since Lot chose for himself the whole district of the Jordon and set up camp near Sodom. However, outward appearances were deceptive, for nearby lived the men of Sodom who were bad and sinners against God. As events unfolded, Lot and his family suffered terrible losses. Eventually, he and his daughters were reduced to living in a cave. What had looked so good to him at the outset turned out to be just the opposite. My experience with HH. What had looked so good at the outset turned out to be just the opposite. |
