| Author | Message | ||
     devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Intermediate Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 181 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.174.144.164 |
I've got a question, especially for all the new posters here: What brings you here? Before answering, consider the following: This is a Satanism Board, as in, the board is ideally supposed to be a place to discuss Satanism, in the context and view points of Satanists and relevent affiliations, such as Left Hand Path religions, Luciferians, etc. Also, in my time here on factnet, I've yet to see a single Satanist post any of the kinds of things I see directed at Satanists towards Christians. So, why do some of the posters here feel the need to come here and attack the Satanists? Especially given that we are not, as far as I know, seeking them out on other boards just to flame them on their beliefs? What ever happend to being a respectful guest? As far as most Satanists are concerned, respect and courtesy is a two way street. Come here posting things like "Satanists are dumb/worshippors of evil/insane/child killers/etc" not just fouls the mood, but it also sets the stage for a flame war. As a Satanist, I automatically see such a post as a sign that the poster is not to be treated with courtesy, as they are here to pick a fight, not intelligently discuss anything, i.e., they are a troll. Now, coming here posting something like this: "Good day/evening/morning/etc. I'm curious about X,Y, and Z, and am wondering if you could clear this up. Thanks" or something along those lines, you'll 9 times out of 10, get a decent response, without the flamage. Please, this is just common courtesy, and all I see of literally dozens upon dozens of posters coming here to pick a fight, rather than discuss anything of substance. If you disagree with Satanism, no problem! Just please express your views in a respectful manner, and try to use evidence, not stereotypes or pop culture images. We don't live up to those a majority of the time, and in all honesty, using the Bible as your frame of reference may work for you, but it doesn't always hold water with a Satanist. Remember, we are not Christians, nor are we memebrs of the Abrahamic faiths. So, while this might comes as a surprise to some, please keep this in mind when you post here, as using nothing but the Bible's view of Satan, (at least the New Testament's), or the Koran/Qur'an's view, will likely get a response along the lines of, "But that is not what we believe at all". Rather than immiediately jumping to conclusions, hear the poster out and take into account that they have a different beleif system that may or maynot be centered around the Christian cosmology and Abrahamic understanding of God. I normally don't think it is necessary to point all this out, but it just dawned on me how much posters here as a whole tend to forget this. I don't mean this as an insult or an attack on any group, so please don't take it as such. It is just that we get pretty much the same kinds of questions, the same kinds of responses, and the same kind of random attacks here. If we are all adults here, then lets try to act like it. Thanks, Devils Advocate 666 | ||
| franklin (franklin) Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 1009 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
When you cloak yourself with a title that you know is going to enrage those who believe that satan is the epitome of evil in the world, do not be surprised by their reactions. If I was to call myself a murderer but then claim that I have not murdered anyone or believe that murder is good, would I make myself any more attractive to others calling myself a murderer? I could proclaim my benevolence 'til I am blue in the face but that would not change their minds about me. That is what the name satan represents to billions of people: murder, absolute evil. So don't take the moral high ground and act surprised. It is not out of ignorance that people are offended by someone who call themselves a satanist. It is by their life's knowledge they have derived their understanding that satan is evil. Why should they have to educate themselves into your specific sects definition of satanism, when all of their lives they have understood satan to equate evil. That is your fault that you choose to call yourself a satanist, not theirs. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Hi Devils Advocate 666 We have the exact same problem on a Jewish website that I belong to. It is a site that is for Judaism and is designed by Jews and for Jews. It is supposed to be a place to discuss Jewish issues. Yet, we have a continuous influx of Christian posters. Most are disrespectful to us and are there to proselytize. I used to be puzzled why they come to our site to post messages that we don’t care about and then get banned from our site. However, over time, I have come to finally understand (but not agree with) their POV. The Christian god is a jealous god. It can not permit any other beliefs to flourish. It is a central part of their religion to get converts. So, if you ask them to stop with the unwanted conversion activities, they will respond that you are preventing them from practicing their religion. Basically, in order to practice their religion, they have to prevent anyone else from practicing theirs. In their minds, they believe that they are doing you a favor. One Christian told me “Everyone that is not a follower of our god is walking a path that has a large ravine right in front of them. If they don’t see the light of our god, they will fall into that ravine. So it is our duty to spread the word and prevent their deaths.” Most Christian posters that go to non-Christian threads (or boards) are not there to learn anything. They are posting to teach their religion whether you want it or not. | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
Then franklin why can't they ignore it and let the satanist boards be for Satanists and those who wish to learn what satanism actually is. Personaly i don't want to learn more than i know already about your Christian God yet at every turn he is shoved in the faces of non belivers. What is wrong with educational debate with all sides learning? Just wondering love becca  | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Intermediate Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 186 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.174.144.164 |
Franklin, what I'm talking about is how people come here for the exclusive purpose to troll, more often than not. They aren't even here to ask a question half the time, they are just here to pick a fight. Now, whether or not you agree with our usage of the term, "Satanist" is irrelevent to what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is the rampant rudeness and blatant disregard for courtesy that I see so many new posters coming with here, and the fact that I, nor any one I know here, has not bothered to do the same thing to the Christians on their own boards, (and I'm not going after Christians specifically, the majority of trolls here happen to be Christians, or at least claim to be), and that this kind of hypocracy is starting to annoy me. You specifically make the claim that we are anti-Christian, and going out of our way to annoy Christians, YET, I PERSONALLY HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO GO TO ANY CHRISTIAN BOARDS! I don't bother the Christians, nor do I seek to go out of my way to do such. Yet, many of these posters get defensive and wonder why they are attacked when they come here attacking us. It seems the simple idea of treating others with any level of courtesy, especially when you are coming to a new board with posters with different beliefs from your own, and treating them with some form of decency is out of the question nowadays. Note to Christians: We are not here to annoy you. The Satanism Boards here on Factnet though, do serve as a place for Satanists to chat, and by no means are we Christians. Many of our ideas may strike you has heretical or even blasphemous, but keep this in mind, we are not Christians, nor do we make the claim to be. The mind set is different, and, if you've got a question, then don't be afraid to ask. But on the same token, don't be rude about it. And if you come here saying things like "YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL!" or "YOU ARE HORRIBLE, DEVIL WORSHIPPING MONSTERS", etc, then expect a cold response at best. We don't go to your boards commanding you to think, worship, believe, or even act the way we do, it is appreciated if you do likewise. This is what I'm getting at Franklin. The whole fact that we recieve so many trolls here with a marytr complex to feed. Many of them come here, attacking us, then go on the "I'm oppressed" rant when they are rightfully flamed. It's not a matter of whether you agree with the way we use Satanist or not. Its about the constant waves of trolls claiming to be Christian who come here, picking fights, and then complaining that they are always picked on, yet the hypocracy comes in when they come here picking the fight, but expect no one to do the same to them. If I go to a Christian board picking a fight, I'd get flamed, and would have it coming. But I don't. Why? I see no point in it, its just an immature way to pass the time. Now, I'm just calling for people to restrain themselves and act live civil adults, not raging lunatics with an axe to grind. And no, I don't think that all Christians are even responsible for this behavior either, many have come here are kind to us, and they recieve kind treatment back. Those that come here to preach don't realize one itty-bitty thing...we aren't interested. To bother us with it is wasting time. And, you're typical Satanist knows about Christianity already, (kinda hard not to when you live in a Christian majority country). We've heard it all before, and if we were seriously interested, we would go pick up a Bible and start studying or go to a church. But that is our choice, not yours, or anyone elses to make. We don't go to you, telling you to convert to Satanism, so why do you feel the need to badger us with converting to Christianity? | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Intermediate Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 187 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.174.144.164 |
Yaakov, I hear ya. Its like some of these trolls want us to flame them to give them a sense of struggling or suffering for their faith or something. I call it a maytr complex. | ||
| redpurusha (redpurusha) Member Username: redpurusha Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.36.226.248 |
devilsadvocate666, I have a question. What is Satanism? What are its beliefs, tenants, immediate and long-term goals? (Message edited by redpurusha on November 09, 2005) | ||
| franklin (franklin) Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 1010 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
I think these satanist boards serve another and appropriate purpose here on factnet regardless of why they were started. That is to possibly expose any cultic activity done under the name of satanism. I do not personally know of any. But if there is, this is the right format for it to receive attention. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Intermediate Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 188 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.174.144.164 |
But regardless Franklin, that does not warrent the rude kinds of posts that we recieve here, especially when those of us try to set the record straight. Redpurusha, There is a long answer and a short answer to what is Satanism. (Short Answer) Satanism, as a philosophy, (Modern Satanism), is a mix of atheistic secular humanism, symbolism, and beliefs in magick. Traditional/Theistic Satanism, on the other hand, is basically the reverence of a Satan or Lucifer figure, though not necessarily the same Satan or Lucifer of Christian beliefs. In Traditional Satanism, Lucifer/and/or Satan could be seen as a deity amongst many, (polytheistic), or as a chief deity, but largely latent in its activity in the mortal world,(monotheistic), or a beniegn deity in opposition to the god of the Bible, (maltheistic). To Traditional Satanists, Satan and Lucifer may be seen as one in the same or two different beings, but both are usually seen as either indifferent or as benefactors of humanity. (Long Answer) Modern Satanism, or atheistic Satanism, is largely symbolic in nature, where Satan/and/or Lucifer, are not seen as literal beings but as a metaphorical embodiment(s) of different aspects of human nature, Satan being seen as a rebellious but also darker half, Lucifer possibly symbolizing the creative spark, the innate urge to learn and discover, seek knowledge regardless of who gets in the way. Or, Satan/Lucifer could be seen as a sort of elemental balancing force in existance, as a sort of necessary polar opposite to the beniegn aspects of existance. And another varient is that Satan/Lucifer are seen as role models of sorts. I personally subscribe to the metaphorical embodiments of human nature one myself. For the most part, Modern Satanism is largely atheistic, yet has elements of magick as part of some of its practices. It has no actual universal hierarchy, no real codified doctrine or dogma, save, do what you wish, as long as no one innocent gets hurt and you are willing to deal with the consequences. The most prominent or at least well known sect of Modern Satanism is the Church of Satan, founded by Anton LaVey. It is by far one of the most theatric and showy of all Modern Satanist sects. But at the core, most Modern Satanists tend to believe in the following: -Personal Accountability-you can't claim "the Devil made me do it", you are the sole person responsible for you behavior. -The lack of any authority higher than yourself. We do not subscribe to the concept of a deity looking down upon us measuring our every action, and for the most part, we do not believe in an afterlife of any kind. We live on in the memories of those we affected in life. -The idea that animals and children should not be tortured, harmed, or anything of the like. If you wish to get attacked brutally by a Satanist, strike a child or kick a dog. We don't take kindly to animal abusers, (as many of us respect the fact that animals tend to be more at peace with their nature than humans by in large), and children are not to be harmed for obvious reasons, they are the future of humanity, and to harm them is like unloading poison in your drinking water, it will come back to haunt you. I have to be especially clear about this: We do not condone torturing, mutilating, or "sacrificing" of animals or children or innocent people. That's flat out insane for anyone to do that. -We believe that revenge can be a good thing, if it is warrented and applied properly. We do not have the "love thy neighbor" theme in our beliefs, but this does not mean we are jerks to everyone we meet. Typically, a Satanist will treat you with the same treatment you give them first, so if you are respectful to them first, they will show you respect more often than not. Show them rudeness, then they will return the favor. -Anti-Authoritarianism. Many Modern Satanists are extremely anti-authoritarian in almost everything, be it politics, be it social norms, or even in religion. This is probably the key reason we have no real codified doctirnes or dogma or universal hierarchy. -The worth of the individual. Most Modern Satanists tend to be rather individualistic, though we do care about others, but again, only those whom we deem appropriate for our care, such as family members, close friends, spouses and significant others, pets, etc. -Lack of an emphasis on an afterlife. We tend to have a lack of focus on living this life for the hopes of an afterlife. Why? Simply either most of us don't believe their is one, or that it is honestly unimportant as far as this life is concerned, we'll deal with the afterlife if and when we get there. Besides, that is what feeds our desire to live this life as fully as possible. -Self-Interest. There is a difference between self interest and selfishness, most notably, selfishness is lacking the ability to care or help anyone, even someone very close, just because it will not serve your ends. Self interest, on the other hand, is selfishness taken within a rational context, as in, you'll be thinking about how does this affect you, what do you lose and gain, but this doesn't mean you won't perform acts of alturism either. Basically, when it comes down to it, most Satanists will perform alturistic actions because they feel like it, not out of a sense of obligation to anyone or anything. -Knowledge as a good thing. Herecy, challenging old norms and strongly held traditions is something we hold in esteem, depending on context. The reason we have a strong admiration for Lucifer is the various instances of scholar Lucifer is credited with playing. Whether it be in Milton's Paradise Lost, in which Lucifer is cast down since he would rather make his own way, tahn be a servant to god, as well as understand divinity for himself, rather than being told he couldn't handle it, or as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden myth, in which the Serpent is traditionally identified as Lucifer, doing exactly what it does best, presenting knowledge in the form of a choice. Knowledge is power in the form of options, the more we know, the more options and opportunities we tend to see. Without knowledge, our lives are little more than stimuli/responses. Traditionally, the medieval Church killed intellectual because they would dare to question the doctrines approved of by the Church, to us, this is insane. Cherish the heretics. They help drive change by daring to prod people out of intellectual complacentcy. That's just right off the top of my head, but that's pretty much a loose idea of what Modern and many Traditional Satanists believe, with some slight differences along the way. Traditional Satanists are much the same with their beliefs, but believe tend to believe in an afterlife more readily than most Modern Satanists. Traditional Satanists are groups into many different sects, orders, and other such groups, many with some semblence of an order or structure of some sort, but I'm not too sure as to how hierarchial, if at all. The different sects of Traditional Satanism that stand out in my mind are the Church of Azrael and Joy of Satan, (though Joy of Satan strikes me as more Maltheistic than anything else, and they are rabidly anti-Christian based on what I've read from them). Some Traditional Satanists are also demonaltrs, i.e., worshippors of beings commonly seen, (in today's world), as demons, such as Azrael. Ironically, most of these "demons", were originally deities in local pre-Christian, pre-Jewish religions or the Middle East. Those that are demonaltrs and Satanists all in one, tend to devote themselves to Satan or Lucifer as their particular patron, though possibly recognizing other beings as well. Then, there are Luciferians. They focus more readily on Lucifer, while some even despise Satanism out right. Luciferianism also divides along the lines of Traditional and Modern branches. The Church of the Black Rose, (I think I rememebred that correctly) is the Traditional Luciferian organization that sticks out in my head. But that is just all a brief blurb into Satanism and Luciferianism. But on to the rest of your question, there are probably no intermediate goals of Satanism as a whole, nor long term goals. This would be from a lack of organization, fierce sense of individualism, and blatant indifference of Satanists towards affecting world affairs unless there is something they feel strongly about. The drive in Satanism is more on personal empowerment and living your life the way you wish, rather than messing in the affairs of another person without needing to. Also, the anti-authoritarian bent has prevented anyone person or organization from assembling Satanists world wide to do anything, even getting statistics on us is difficult. Basically, when it comes down to it, the long term, intermidiate, and short term interests of Satanists are pretty much the same as any other person, living long and living well. | ||
| redpurusha (redpurusha) Member Username: redpurusha Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.36.226.248 |
Okay devilsadvocate666, I read your response and one part struck out to me, "Or, Satan/Lucifer could be seen as a sort of elemental balancing force in existance, as a sort of necessary polar opposite to the beniegn aspects of existance." I am in agreement with this outlook and acknowledge Satan exists, on many levels, and is a necessary polar opposite to the good or benign side of life. You sound like you are very informed on the topic, I feel like comparing you to a philosophy major (or minor)? You might be interested in this, I took a class on Objectivism (the philosophy of Ayn Rand) in which the professor was one of her biggest advocates (even edited some of her books). It was very interesting as it dealt in direct conflict with my positive view of religion. Actually, from what you said, her philosophy is very compatible with "Satanism" as it centers on individualism, atheism, and the virtue of selfishness. I read many of her books and found it challenging. Fortunately, however, I had in come contact with other pro-religious views which had a stronger impact on me and were more convincing that helped me get through the class without losing my strong belief in God. There is some ground that Satanists (as you descrbe it) and religious folk can agree on. But why the redundancy of 666 after devilsadvocate? (Message edited by redpurusha on November 12, 2005) | ||
| franklin (franklin) Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 1050 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
It's to tick off the Christians. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Intermediate Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 194 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.174.144.164 |
Franklin, Actually, the number of the Beast is not 666, but 616. But anyhow, the only reason I use it is because I was too lazy to come up with another alias before coming here. No grand scheme, no diabolical plot; laziness, pure and simple. Redpurusha, Actually, I am focused in the fields of international relations and international justice. But I am more familiar with Neitzsche than I am with Rand and Objectivism, but I've heard of it before. Those two philosophers, as well as Crowley, are considered to have a great deal in common with their philosophies with Satanism. Many Satanists do study such philosophies, but I'm more partial to Neitzche myself, but I understand his anti-god stance in the context of opposition to a social construct used by states to hold power, mascarading it as god's will. Given what I understand about Neitzcshe, he didn't believe in a literal god, so hence, it could not actually die as far as he was concerned if it never existed, rather, the "god" that the governing powers of Europe for much of the Medival ages and even today in some cases, was killed off by a rise of secularism and humanism. This "god", is not a literal being, but an ideology used to keep people subserviant to the wishes of the state. In this example, the rise of atheism, skepticism, secularism and humanism would challenge the legitamecy and undermine the authority of this construct, hence, weaking the power of the state over them. Any literal god is not the focus here, but methods and institutions used by a ruling faction of society to rule over another. So, in conclusion, I would say what such a philosophy challenges a person to do is analyze society, our social norms, values, and the institutions that govern society before blindly following or accepting them. Religion, in this case, can be seen as two things: a system of beliefs and values, and a social norm. By questioning how the social norm works, and the effects of religion on that social norm, you can gain greater insight to the nature of that norm, and whether or not it is genuienly representative of your faith. Often, people tend to just accept the word of their higher ups, without asking why and how. Without these questions, it is very easy for someone to assume power under the guise of "god's will", then abuse power to serve their own agendas, regardless of the actual teachings of a religion. But that's at least my take on it, as for religion in general, I really find no reason to badger people about their path, as long as they do not use it as a tool to oppress me or other people. P.S. I actually brought the alias from another site, but I was too lazy come up with a new one. Besides, the person who invited me to this site would recognize this alias, as opposed to a new one when I first came here. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 1063 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
I love Ayn Rand's books. But I don't buy into total objectivism. Greed is not good. Ethical self interest is. | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Advanced Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 511 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.17.25.189 |
Yes, I feel the same way about them, too, F. I loved Atlas Shrugged. One of my thoughts on Rand is that she was obviously anti communism and that this was a big big part of her philosophy. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Senior Member Username: franklin Post Number: 1066 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
That is why her works find new fans and readers in every new generation. She put her fingers on the pulse of humanity and revealed that men and women worldwide inherently crave to be free individuals. That truth is timeless and universal. | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.158.93 |
Interesting, this started out a discussion on Satanism and urned into a discussion on Ayn Rand. There is a fantasitc article by Michael Shermer on Rand, here: http://www.skepticfiles.org/skmag/un-cult.htm And yes i do agree that Ayn Rand was a bona fide cult leader. | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Advanced Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.107.60.82 |
Really? I mean, I know she has a group, I've gotten mailings from them, but she's dead. The group also doesn't cut people off from the outside world, coerce people, take their money... doesn't sound like a cult or cult leader to me. Ayn Rand rocks! | ||
| frankenchrist (frankenchrist) Intermediate Member Username: frankenchrist Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.109.144.162 |
BoF, Since Rand dies it is not nearly the cult that it once was, some cults are utterly dependant on their leaders, others not at all -- (Scientolgy has grown since L. Ron became maggot food.) Read the article I posted above, it's very interesting and it addresses some of the issues that you brought up. I have only read The Fountainhead and I did find it an entertaining read. I agree with many things that Rand says but certianly not all of them. You mentioned some ways in which Ayn Rand and her philosophy are not a cult. Well you are right about those things but there are other ways in which it is a cult. Have you ever noticed that when you point out to a cult member that they are a member of a cult, the knee-jerk reaction is to start telling you that things about their organization that make it "not a cult" Again, read Shermer's piece, it will explain more. | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Advanced Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 515 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.107.60.82 |
Well, I'm not a member of any of Rand's organizations. So I'm not sure who this "cult member" is to whom you refer. | ||
| redpurusha (redpurusha) Intermediate Member Username: redpurusha Post Number: 102 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.36.226.248 |
The article argues it could be said to have a "cult following" due to its mouth-to-mouth expansion in popularity (esp when Rand was around). Most of this cult labeling going on on these boards is WAY out of hand. It reminds me a little of the time when the church was burning anyone who disagreed with them at the stake, accusing them of heresy, bs, of course to not such a degree, but in that direction. Whenever an established belief is threatened, this is the common reaction. Instead of being confident in their own stance, they try to cut down the other guy. Ayn Rand was an accomplished philosopher and writer. She took her view of existience and came up with her own 'bona fide' philosophy, but certainly was no bona fide 'cult leader'. Her own views,in fact, challened religion and the very existence of God. Her axioms or self-evident truths are given as conclusive evidence that God cannot exist. I agree with one of the article's criticism of Objectivism, the flaw of accepting reason as the final say in everything. Obviously, her vision, although grand and full of hope for man living free, is short-sided by not acknowledging the innate human tool of intuition and the fact of life after life. "The only real valuable thing is intuition." "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." -Albert Einstein | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Advanced Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 520 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.107.60.82 |
I think so, too. |
