| Author |
Message |
    
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 1:11 pm: | 
|
These are excerpts from my journal about a year and a half before I left. I have made no changes except to spelling, and grammar. I didn't cut or add, except to clarify who I was talking about.
Jeremy Crow
March 12 2002
Bro. Blair said on Sunday mar.10 2002 that God dose not always speak directly to a person because the head, (meaning God) is not directly connected to, say, the foot.
Now this makes no sense to me because the head is directly connected to the foot through the nerve system. Every body part receives direct orders from the head.
The head doesn't say to the hand move the toe, and then the toe moves. The toe has to receive a direct order, dose it not? I guess you could argue that the head actually tells a muscle to move a tendon that contracts and bends a joint, but I don't think that is what He is talking about. I asked Bro. Howard, or actually told him that I thought that we believed that Jesus Christ coming in the flesh meant that, it is possible for a person [a human being] to come to you with a direct word from God, and that we as Christians with the Holy spirit can and will feel the witness of the spirit as it says in the Bible that we have no need for any man to teach us, for the spirit teaches us all things. Meaning I believe, not that the spirit will speak to you directly [unseen] from Heaven on every occasion, but that he could use a third person, a human coming as a messenger from God sent, and anointed to bring the word of God. Meaning his word was brought through human flesh, not that the person brining the word was Jesus Christ. Bro. Howard said that this was correct. That this is what we believe. But is it?
Now I know that the question then arises, if a person you trust as being" sent" by God such as a pastor, or any of the five fold ministry, and a you submit to the word of "God" that they delivered to you, and you have done everything that you we're told, obeying it as the word of God, and its not, what happens? Bro. Howard said that if I obey him or any other minister out of honor to God, that God would bless me, not that everything (consequences) will be all right.
Now this answer was OK for a while but is that correct? How can God bless disobedience? I know I was listening to someone I thought was sent by God, but they weren't. What I'm saying is, if God was trying to tell you something, and you listened to someone instead of hearing from God what He was really telling you, is this not in a way disobedience?
I know that by now I am sounding pretty doubtful of the beliefs of the Church but that's not how I feel, well maybe sometimes, sometimes I just have this feeling inside that I can't ignore. It just feels like something is wrong. I thought for a while that maybe it was just me and that it was because I wasn't totally in the light, and so I wouldn't feel like things we're right until I was. But now I am, and I still have this feeling. I don't know how to put my finger on what I'm feeling, but I know that something isn't right. Maybe, oh I don't know. The thing is that my parents question every thing we do, and I want to have answers. If not for them, then for me. I want to know what I believe and not just go on what someone else feels, or what seems to work for them. I want to know what is God's good and perfect will. Now I know that lots of people in the fellowship would say that I'm just listening to my parents, but I'm not. At least not in the sense of believing every thing they tell me. I am crushed and embarrassed at the way they have handled everything since they have left. I believe there actions are totally non-Christian. But in another sense I know that we as a Church are not perfect, so I believe that it is very possible that they may truly see some error here.
I cannot for their sake and my own go on blindly without question if I feel a check in my spirit.
March 14 2002
Tonight we [the church] had a meeting on wedding rings. The question was, was it Gods will for Christians from a biblical point of view to wear wedding bands.
The meeting started with a preface by Bro. Kevin, which he said was not biased in any way, and if it sounded like it, it wasn't intended to be so. I disagree. [He said that he was reminded of other times that the Lord lead the church into greater light on different matters and how good every one felt after the church incorporated the pattern.] Everyone knew that we wouldn't be having a meeting about this if there weren't a lot of people feeling that it was God for us to change our position on this matter. So yes I think it was biased. I'm not saying Bro. Kevin was lying. I don't know if he was sure what all he was saying in terms of expressing what he was feeling. I know (hope) he didn't want it to be biased. But anyway, there were lots of arguments that were pretty good for both sides. My feelings though were, that there is not a solid argument on either side that its a matter of personal conviction. If someone feels like the Lord doesn't want them to wear a wedding ring that's fine with me .To tell the truth I really don't care either way, I hardly ever wore mine anyway, OK! My problem is this, since the Bible isn't perfectly clear on the matter I feel that it should be between each couple what they feel to do. Otherwise I'm afraid that if it becomes a tradition in the church, it will be like the Pharisees who followed the law to the tee in the external things like counting the individual grains of different herbs to make sure they gave exactly ten percent. Or wouldn't raise a finger on the Sabbath, because the Law of Moses said not to labor on it.
March 15 2002
Tonight we had a men's meeting for our group and we just talked about the ring deal and everyone shared what a battle it had been, but how free they feel now . "Its just so good that God is bringing us into greater unity" is what everyone was saying. Then they started talking about Sis. Anne Marie's testimony last night how she had shared about a couple that when they argue they say that they are not married. They meant I believe that they weren't in unity and so they needed to stop their argument because it's not of God to argue. But Bro. Doyle said that he took it to mean that they just weren't married. And then he said Anne maries analogy was not true, because he said, "take for instance if I disagreed with someone in the church that's tough luck because I made a covenant with him and I was stuck." Which of course is contrary to what Bro. Blair has said so many times, that if you do not agree with the Church and feel like something is not of God you are free to go. Which is absolutely the way it has to be. You are not stuck, you have to follow the leading of the spirit you can't just do something because so and so said.
Oh and also Bro. Blair said in the meeting last night that we (the church) were not settled on the matter and that he wanted everyone to pray and see what they felt was the Lords will. But in our meeting last night everyone was saying how they had to pray through for the grace to get rid of their rings. Not that God had told them to.
That's not what Bro. Blair said he was wanting, he said he wanted people to pray through what God is speaking to them. Not what they felt like the Brothers wanted. And again I want to clarify my position on the matter, I do not have an issue with the rings I don't think God cares as long as you're not wearing it for vane or some other ungodly reason. My problem is the way people are responding.
March 18 2002
Today is a really yukkkkkkkkk! I guess I have to say that I'm really going through it. Everybody treats me like the black sheep. Maybe I am, but really I think I'm just the ugly duckling. I'm shunned by most. The only people that have treated me as a brother are Bro. Howard and Bro. Gary, and even now it seems like Bro. Gary is just I guess, I don't know, tired of me? I don't really know what to do I just feel all alone, as far as human relationships go. And no I'm not talking about my wonderful wife. She is " THE GREATEST". She told me today that Jeremy Adams told Emma that, Bro. Blair said that we weren't going to join the Mennonites because it would hurt our testimony because people would ask, what was wrong with what you had? Is that the only reason?
March 30 2002
Katy told Ange that Sis. Lindsay said that her dad ( an Elder ) told her that Bro. Blair told the group leaders that they needed to pray through to a place that they would not marry a couple that wanted to have wedding rings. I have a question about that, It doesn't sound like they have much of a choice. Bro. Blair said in the meeting on rings that it was a matter of personal conviction. There is just so much that seems contradictory.
Oct. 12 2003
Today we had a group meeting and a pot luck. In the meeting I was just kind of just sitting in my chair praying asking God to help me see through all the things that made no sense, My dad says things I agree with and the Bros. say thing I agree with, but neither of them see it like I do . Bro. Gary says I can't believe my dad or any one that is in assosiation with him. But them he goes on to tell me how bad my brother Josiah is based on things that PJ told him. I just don't get it, he can trust PJ, but I can't trust my Dad ? I asked him (Gary) why this was so, and he said because he felt the witness of the Spirit in what PJ said.
End of Journal.
I later found out that the situation where Gary felt the witness of the Spirit, was a total and complete lie. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 259
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
|
As I have repeatedly stated, this website is not about "discussing doctrine" it is about personal attacks and character assassination. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 261
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 6:00 pm: |
|
I am sorry for interrupting your memoirs, I just have a couple questions for you.
1. If FACTnet is, as you say, a resource to help others, then what does the above post accomplish?
2. You have also stated that you are trying to "warn others of the dangers of HH". Okay, whatever. When are you going to consider the world warned? Is having website full of your attacks against HH enough? Are you going to paint a billboard on the moon? Are you going to try to reach every single person alive? So far, on FACTnet, if you're lucky, you've "warned" maybe a hundred people. That's a slow start! When is the world going to be warned? If HH is worth warning a few about, then surely it is worth warning many!
Are you going to try and tell me that your life is so miserable that you are willing to spend it telling people how mad you are at a church you used to attend? That's misery dude!
There is only one Being I know of who has reached the entire world, He is the Lord most High. He sent his one and only Son because he Loved us and He saw we needed a Saviour. This Saviour, Jesus, has commanded us to reach out to ALL the people of the world and tell them about how good He is, NOT HOW BAD HH IS!!!!! |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 63
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
The people I have talked with who have read most of this thread at first thought there might be some fact stated; but the incessant ranting demonstrates a very distressed child and invalidates the message.
May God have mercy on his soul. |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 382
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
|
Pureheart,
I assume you are referring to dowen? |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 64
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 6:54 pm: |
|
Some things in life are best not explained. If one can’t figure it out, one really doesn’t need to know.
Also…………Proverbs 10:9 …look it up |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 65
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
|
Proverbs 13:5
Psalm 15:2,5
Isaiah 33:15-16 |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 383
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:23 pm: |
|
Truth_hunter,
Your journal entries really touched me. When one begins to distinguish the quiet voice of the Holy Spirit above the din of human authoritarianism, a crossroads has truly been reached. One must then make the choice of which path to follow, that of quenching the Holy Spirit or of responding to His gentle prompting. The former leads to legalism and dependence on man, the latter to freedom in Christ.
I cannot for their sake and my own go on blindly without question if I feel a check in my spirit.
May we ever be responsive to that check! |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 41
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:57 pm: |
|
Thank you Common Sense.
I have friends in HH that have the same battles as I did, Fear of God, or Fear of man. Its a hard battle in HH because the men are always right in front of you enforcing their place of power. But I want them to see that this a battle that can be won, we must question every time our conscience is pricked and get answers that match the Word of God, not HH literature.
(Message edited by truth hunter on September 29, 2005) |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 384
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 8:04 pm: |
|
It is a common battle. We see it in Galatians and it continues to the present day. Keep up the good fight! |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 262
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 8:13 pm: |
|
Common_sense,
A quick question for you.
If I came over to your side of the fence and became a "brick wall" for your cause, would you support me? You speak of a "good fight", what is a good fight other than continuing to fight for what you believe? Would that type of behaviour classify as "ranting"? |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 263
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 8:22 pm: |
|
Sorry, three questions . |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 264
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 8:26 pm: |
|
Oh, one more, this will be the last, today, .
Truth_Hunter "copied and pasted" from his journal. Why do you support him "copying and pasting" yet persecute others for "copying and pasting"? |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 385
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 8:59 pm: |
|
Dowen,
I am seriously tempted to dismiss your questions with biting sarcasm, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since so many on this board speak highly of your character.
If I came over to your side of the fence and became a "brick wall" for your cause, would you support me?
I really have no use for brick walls on any side -- all they do is form impenetrable barriers. What I AM interested in is serious, honest discussion with the chief aim being to rightly divide the Word of God and thus discern when it is being misused, misapplied or twisted.
You speak of a "good fight", what is a good fight other than continuing to fight for what you believe?
???? Maybe you can expand on that for me. If what I believe is in line with the Word of God then fighting for it is indeed a good fight. Otherwise, it is merely defending the traditions of men and promoting error.
Would that type of behaviour classify as "ranting"?
Again, not positive that I understand the question, but I'll take a stab at it. "Ranting" can occur in defense of the truth but is generally indefensible and almost never useful in rational, reasoned discourse.
Truth_Hunter "copied and pasted" from his journal. Why do you support him "copying and pasting" yet persecute others for "copying and pasting"?
First, I will assume that your use of "persecute" in this context is tongue-in-cheek, because it is absolutely laughable!
Second, as Pureheart says, "Some things in life are best not explained. If one can’t figure it out, one really doesn’t need to know."  |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 66
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.243.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:03 pm: |
|
If anyone thinks the Holy Spirit condones the behavior on this discussion board, please show me scriptures. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 42
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:52 pm: |
|
Pure Heart, First look at missionary lady's 65th post on the "did I see Jesus in the flesh at HH" thread.
Second you believe we are ranting, distressed and very confused. You post scriptures that you think prove we are, perverted, wicked, loathsome, back biters, despised by the vile, accepters of bribes and lovers of blood.........
Why would anyone want to give you scripture? It would be as useless as trying to justify being a Jew to a Nazi. ....
Until I see a change in your attitude I for one will no longer answer your posts, it is useless.
Truth Hunter |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 265
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
|
Common_sense,
Thanks for your response and thanks for not using "biting" criticism.
Judging by your response I see no need for me to continue "dividing" issues with you.
Whomever you are, God bless you ma'am!
I am going to endeavor to find people that I can help, not argue with!
At the end of the day, we are all simply creations of a Mighty God. That Mighty God deserves for us to find way's to Praise Him, not argue about Him! |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 386
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
|
I said:
What I AM interested in is serious, honest discussion with the chief aim being to rightly divide the Word of God and thus discern when it is being misused, misapplied or twisted.
If what I believe is in line with the Word of God then fighting for it is indeed a good fight. Otherwise, it is merely defending the traditions of men and promoting error.
And the response from Dowen is:
Judging by your response I see no need for me to continue "dividing" issues with you.
Am I thus to infer that you are not interested in discerning error in accordance with God's Word and are content with defending man-made traditions? |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 266
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
|
Puuhhleeeze.
Common_sense, I have over 250 posts, so far. Many of them I wasted upon you. I bear you no ill will, yet I can tell by your responses to me and others that you obviously have Christianity all figured out and it's your way or the highway once you decide some group is a cult.
I am amazed that you have determined I am defending "man made traditions". I also resent you pigeon holing me in that way, I assure you, you haven't a clue about what you speak.
BTW I carefully chose the word 'persecute' in my describing the way you treated PH the other day.
Here is it's meaning, it describes your actions perfectly.
per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER} |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 387
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
|
Definition #2 seems to describe Pureheart's approach (LOL). BTW, how did I "treat" Pureheart besides pointing out that his/her pattern of posting fits the FACTNet definition of spamming?
Seriously though, Dowen, please cite one example where you have actually made an attempt to discuss or reason through an issue that has been raised instead of merely labeling the poster as a liar or their words as lies.
NO approach to discussing HH and their doctrines seems to meet your standard. The only acceptable solution appears to be for everyone who has any questions or concerns about HH to just shut up and go away. That postion, in and of itself, is a red flag and symptomatic of an authoritarian religious group.
I am amazed that you have determined I am defending "man made traditions". I also resent you pigeon holing me in that way, I assure you, you haven't a clue about what you speak.
I did not make that determination -- I simply asked you if, based on your own words, I should infer that. You're right, I "haven't a clue" about you except the 266 clues that I have read on this board. There are also a number of "clues" posted by others that laud you as an individual of outstanding character. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 267
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
|
Now, please join with me in endeavoring to HELP people, NOT argue with them or persecute them!
God bless you CS, I hope that someday you will see that what you're doing here is not Blessing Him.
You have said you have a walk with God, that is wonderful! Why don't you talk about the good things He has done for you, instead of roaming across message boards and picking on His children and churches that you have no clue about?
I don't wish to make you mad, and I am not trying to pick a fight. I only wish you would realize that your God-given talents are much, much better utilized when you use them to serve Him, and not use them to pick on (persecute) His children. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 268
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
|
CS,
Yes, I do wish all these posters would "go away", go away straight to HH and work out their problems, face to face with those they disagree with!
I wish they would stop acting like cowards and begin to behave like men! |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 388
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
|
Don't forget, Dowen, your 268 posts are helping keep this thread on the front burner at FACTNet. |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 389
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
|
Truth_Hunter,
What was the final straw for you regarding your affiliation with HH? If you don't mind my asking, why did you discontinue your journal at that point? |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
|
CS, The final physical straw, was the time that I talked about in my first post, when my pastor called me out in front of 100 +/- people in HH, screaming and yelling, he prophesied that today was my day, over and over and over. Every eye in the place was on him as he stormed over to where I was. The whole place went into a frenzy of frantic chanting prayer, as I was hauled outside the building by two of the pastors. Where the one who had been yelling at me, laid down face to the ground and began begging God to spare my life and not to strike me down.
At this point in my life I had begun to have a real relationship with God, I knew what he was speaking to me, and I was not going to let the fear tactics of a man change what I heard from God.
I knelt down picked him up and told him that God was speaking to me. After sharing my heart, he apologized and said he moved in his flesh sometimes when he wanted someone to respond who didn't seem to be submitting to his word, which he assured me was the word of the Lord. After hugging me and laughing a bit he sent me to pray for a young man that I didn't even know up a the very front of the meeting. This really upset me because I knew it appeared that this pastor had in the power of the Spirit, brought the word of God that had "Softened" me into submission. I knew that the pastor would never tell the people that his whole prophesy was his flesh, they still saw a powerful, infallible priest. This act broke my final tread of trust in, "Jesus Christ come in the flesh" as HH perceives it.
At this point I had begun to read my Bible all the time, and read it with eyes focused on Jesus who died for my sins, as opposed to Jesus in the flesh as my savior. It was nothing more than a miracle, I asked God for a sign that I could not question, and he did just that. I do not post it because others would question, but for me I knew without a doubt, that I could no longer stay a member of Homestead Heritage and also follow my conscience. The Lord has blessed every step I have taken since. He has brought people into my life, who have ministered the true gospel and the love of our Lord. I thank him for every one of you that prayed for me, I thank all the people that questioned me, that questioned HH doctrine. I want to do the same thing for my friends still in HH, I love them all.
I don't know why I stopped writing at that point. |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
New member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
|
T_H
I have read HH material for years that we have in our resource library. I learned a lot about there doctrines from their own writings. But, your posts continue to enlighten me to the gross disregard for human dignity and personal autonomy in the minds and actions of the leadership of HH.
Missionary Lady has also added valuable insight into the past actions of HH in trying to take over and control other fellowships. The sister from Arkansas has told how HH is currently trying to take over her old group. There is more of this story to tell. You are all sharing with those on the outside what it is like to be an adult in Homestead Heritage. You and the many others who have told your stories and continue to tell them are doing a great service to those who are being decieved by the illusion that HH presents to the public.
Keep up the good work.
(Message edited by old_watchman on October 13, 2005) |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 67
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
|
Greetings,
I’ve tried to be a peacemaker. I’ve tried to give a balanced view on numerous subjects on this thread. I could quote scripture all day but it just doesn’t make much difference. I just don’t understand.
I appreciate some of you left a church with your feelings hurt. If what you write is true then you needed to leave this church. What I don’t see in all your writings is anything about this church that is exclusive. It appears they are a mix of Anabaptists and United Pentecostal. If you will research these two groups you will find these denominations fit and believe the very thing you are complaining about. But like I said before, there are about 34,000 different groups, all with their own thoughts and beliefs and ways of worship and conducting themselves. Apparently you don’t agree with their view, their writings, their leaders, or any part of them. So don’t try to join them and if you are a part of them and you don’t agree with them, get out now. Go find your own kind. I would still like to know the names of some of your churches. I might want to visit you. If you truly are a Christian, then how about an invitation?
If I have offended any of you with my posts I want to apologize. I, like some of you, let my flesh rise up every so often. Please forgive me.
Bottom line…….I truly believe, and it’s just my personal belief, God does not want his children talking bad, writing bad, thinking bad, about each other. I guess we won’t know for sure if I’m all wet until we are all standing before Him and we can then ask Him. I just don’t want any of God’s children to risk their eternity. I hope you understand. I love you all. That’s God’s order for us. To love with a ‘Lev Tahor’ (pure heart).
Have a wonderful and blessed weekend.
Pure Heart |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
"To love with a ‘Lev Tahor’ (pure heart). Have a wonderful and blessed weekend. Pure Heart"
And you too Pure Heart and folks.
Shalom Shabbat,
Praxaluh |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 390
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
|
Pureheart,
Have you ever been a part of a "Christian" cult? Or left an authoritarian, spiritually-abusive group after years of involvement? My guess would be "No" because people who have know that there is a lot more to it than having "left a church with your feelings hurt." Count yourself blessed not to have experienced it!
God does not want his children talking bad, writing bad, thinking bad, about each other.
I agree with you that it is not God's desire for there to be a need for such. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, sinful behavior manifests itself even among His children. And God uses various means to expose that sin because it is never His will for His children to continue in it. Paul's epistles contain many great examples of God using a person to shine the light on where Christian groups went off track. By your defintion, though, Paul was "talking bad, writing bad, thinking bad" about his fellow believers.
I feel a great connection with these ex-HH members because the experiences they have shared parallel mine in many ways. Though the doctrinal foundation for our ex-groups is dissimilar, the profound truth of freedom in Christ has impacted us similarily, and once experienced it is very difficult to keep to yourself!
I once wrote this about my experience growing up in a legalistic, authoritarian "Christian" group then being ex-communicated:
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
We had been separated from friends and family, shunned and marked to be avoided, but NOTHING could separate us from the love of God. What a comfort that was and continues to be!
(My brother) has been conditioned to believe that their “marking” of us was for our “good!” –- I want him to know that they were right!
I, too, hope that all of you have a blessed weekend. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
|
Here are some excerpts from some earlier journals, there is a lot of personal stuff that I have cut, I'm just putting in the stuff about Homestead.
Its important to remind the reader that often times, when I refer to God, God's will, or God's calling. I am referring to the Elders, or what has been ministered to me by HH leadership. My age range was 19 - 22
Dec, 8 , 1997
I lack so much wisdom, but that will change. The Brothers have written warehouses of literature filled with Gods wisdom. I pledge myself to reading it so that I will have understanding as we have been taught.
Understanding means, to stand under authority. If I don't hurry up and fill the place God's calling me to, someone else will take my place. I will have nothing, God will even take my wife to be.
Dec. 23, 1997
Christmas is day after tomorrow, but it just doesn't feel like it. No holidays feel like they used to. No family time, it just work and talk to visitors. I want to see my parents be able to spend some time together, and I would like to be with my brothers.
Jan. 6 1998
We had a really good meeting Sunday, I feel like I had a real break through, I'm going to put the Lord and his patterns, first in my life, I feel that I can submit with heart, soul, mind and strength.
Aug,9 ,1998
When I was a boy I did out of it things, but I always drew a line, I always tried to listen to my conscience. I have always felt it guiding me.I want to please the Lord. But why do so many of the other kids who have been in the Church ( Homestead ) all their lives, and are the kids of the elders, do the things they do. I am going to list some of the thing that kids who are a part of this church have bragged about doing, carrying hand guns , vowing to kill one another, breaking noses, chasing down whores for sex, etc. I'm a little stumped as of what to do or think, I wish somehow things would change, these kids have turned into beasts. Some are even having gay relations. Don't these kids have any values? What's the deal? I was raised to follow my conscience but these kids act like they don't have one, how is this possible? I mean there are a few that seem good like, ___ and ___ but they just act like they're better than everybody else. But they just break the patterns and then say, "oh Its ok because its God's will that I marry that girl someday". Or sometimes just " I'm an elders kid, what are you going to do about it". Oh and then there's these new young dads yelling at their wives, being cruel to their kids. I just don't get it. Aren't we supposed to be Christians?
Sep. 9 , 1998 8:16pm
Just wanted to note that six people told on me last night for spending to much time with Ange. One jerk said he saw us kissing out behind the sanctuary, in the parking lot, whatever Jerk, I haven't even seen Ange in two days much less be close enough to kiss her. Another girl said she saw us in bed together, WHAT! Even if I had , how would they have seen unless they were window peeping, what a jerk, I've never even touched Ange, except for shaking her hand.
9:30 pm
Well I just found out that Ange got spoken to also, and now we're restricted from each other.
Ok I've kept the victory for quite some time now, but now I'm starting to feel the devil come against me, about the brothers, thoughts like , "come on, they know that stuffs not true, they just don't want you to get married. They use Ange just to make you do what they want. They know you want marry her, so they use her as leverage, kinda like hanging a carrot in front of a horse". Why else would they keep telling me, "if you don't step into your place in the body, learn to submit, and become totally broken, God will never give you a wife."
Ok just settle down Jer, you know these things aren't true, just rebuke them, answer them with the truth, "THE BROTHERS LOVE YOU". Ok now I've made up my mind I do whatever it takes to make it through and become what I'm supposed to be.
Devil you're a liar.
Sep 13, 1998
My life is changing completely, I have been under the microscope for weeks now and the Lord (Elders) has brought many things to light in my life that I had no idea were there like, I have been possessed by two spirits, Tamuz and Ishtar, I found out that I have had a baby killing nature, The brothers told me that it is a blood thirsty spirit and longed for blood and guts and abortion was his modern alter, he must have blood. Wow , I thought I loved kids, I'm glad to be getting rid of that spirit. But they also told me I had the Spirit of Tamuz that wanted to have sex with my mom, and kill my dad? Ok , like I said, I sure didn't know that those things were in me, I guess I was just blind. They have also said that these spirits were ruining my life, and controlling me, that's why I had questioned them about my relationship with Ange, they said I had been pushing my relationship with Ange forward in the flesh, and now I was paying the price for my selfishness .
I am feeling so free, my image of being a good person has kept me from having the victory and from being in true submission, They told me I would always fail in helping people and delivering the Word of God, if I didn?t get the victory over my sin of pride.
I have been praying for hours every night and I feel like I am being set free from these Spirits, thank you Lord for sending the Brothers to shine your light into my life.
Sep 15, 1998
I'm sitting here trying to gather my thoughts, today was so hard, the Devil has been attacking me, I don't want to admit this is happening, I thought I was set free from questioning, I must be so weak. But I must remember that God is good all the time.
Sep 21, 1998
The Lord is uncovering many Evil spirits here in the young people, and its been very painful to endure the weeding, but it must be done.
Sep 27, 1998
We had one of the best but worst meetings ever today, it was sad because about 2 dozen kids were disassociated, but it had to happen to purge to Body of all sin. And maybe some of those kids will learn that submitting to the patterns is only helping them to find a relationship with God.
Ange ran a high risk to come say goodbye to me today, I think it will be the last time I talk to her for a very long time. Later Kate (Ange's sister) came by the house and said goodbye then busted into tears, I wanted to give her a hug but that would have really topped things off, just standing there talking was an offense to anyone who might see.
Oh well, I'll be married to Ange some day and then, oh you know.
Oct. 7, 1998
Sunday we had communion for the first time in, I think years.
Nov. 30, 1998
I'm still questioning, I just can't help it. It seems like there are so many double standards.
Jan. 24, 1999
The worst thing I can imagine that would happen in the fellowship happened today, and all my questions about the brothers knowing God's will for our lives, even when its contrary to what the individual feels, have come flooding and washing back over me. ____ almost died, ...... almost starved to death, .......went into convoltions and stopped breathing,...... to the hospital, if they can't buy food how on earth will they pay the hospital bill, so now they (elders) say they're taking care of it. They better be, the whole mess is their fault in the first place. We all said it wasn't God's will for them to get married, but this stuff has happened over and over again. If that's what they call God's will, No thanks.
Ok Jer, just slow down, you know that God (HW ) has shown you that we don't know Gods full plan, things might seem horrible right now, but we can't see the end. One thing we can do, is rest in the knowledge that it was God's will and he will take care of them. But this only raises more questions for me. It seems I am going in circles, every time I start to trust the Brothers, something like this comes up, and the questions start all over again, I guess my problem is trust, I need to pray and find greater submission to Gods will even when my loved ones are hurting. I am just weak I need to stop questioning, then every thing will be alright.
Jan. 28, 1999
Finally I have prayed through, no questions. I have great faith in God.
Feb. 12 1999
Brother Gary called me tonight, and told me that he wanted to give me his blessing in my marriage, but not only his but also Brother Howard's and Brother Blair's. He said Brother Blair said he felt like I was on their side.
I am so glad now that I endured all this hardship, see Jeremy now God can bless you, you stopped questioning, and Bam! I am so thankful.
Feb 15, 1999
I'm engaged and I am so happy , even though I got in huge trouble because Ange sat in the middle of my truck seat and that was to close for her. Now, the brothers said we can't be alone,(after a short while we were allowed to spend time alone.) I hope this isn't the beginning of more questions. Why do they have to put restrictions every tiny detail, are they going to try and control my marriage?
The end
(Message edited by truth hunter on October 02, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 269
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 8:42 pm: |
|
Seeing that no one else will venture to rebut Mr. Hunter's vicious and pitiful rantings I feel I must. Half of me does not wish to grant his ramblings the dignity of a response, but the good people of HH (my family among them) deserve it.
TH has painted a very erroneous and false picture of growing up at HH. In one of his earlier posts he spoke being physically beaten, now he furthers that accusation by writing of being spiritually 'beaten'. His writings sicken me because, while his experiences may be true, (which I sincerely doubt) they are NOT common to all children growing up at HH!
I, for one, had a wonderful childhood at HH, and my teen years spent at HH were some of the best years of my life. Even now, after having been gone from HH for a number of years, I look back and am flooded with nothing but good memories. When I read TH's first post on this thread I was reminded of journal I used to keep, so I dug it up, read it, and was once again blessed by the actions of the people that TH has set out to destroy. In one entry I wrote about a choir practice I attended in which another young man came to me and prayed for me. I remember that night like it was last night. This young man walked up to me, simply put his arms around me and prayed God's blessings over me. I don't remember all of the prayer, and even if I did I would not share it here. I only relate this precious memory because it sheds light upon the lifestyle of the members of HH.
They are a 'simple' people, they simply love Jesus, and everyone whom Jesus places in their pathway.
The claim has been made that the only reason these disgruntled ex-members have assembled here is to "expose false doctrines".
In light of TH's recent postings I find that claim laughable and ludicrous. He has made it abundantly clear that his only reason for being here is to exploit this website and turn it into his own, private, personal pity party. And one in the grandest proportions he can manage.
TH has presented a number of accusations against HH since the inception of this set of threads concerning his family and friends at HH. I have tried, after each of his accusations, to find out the truth behind his malicious rantings. What I have found has led me to making the conclusion that he is a delusional and sad individual. An individual with great potential for good, yet continues to blindly squander that potential.
I pray daily for him, I pray that he will see the fruitlessness of his ways and turn from them. I pray that he will see his actions and writings are doing nothing for furthering the Kingdom of Jesus, they are, in fact, hindering it's progress.
In closing, I pray that what the devil meant for evil (this website), God will use for good.
Peace to all of you, TH included.
DOwen. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 50
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
|
Daniel, I also have many fond memories of HH, it was not hell. I felt loved at many times, I remember great times of prayer. I remember praying with SL in the community hall, it was great. I remember volley ball, playing music, walks, playing in the snow, many, many happy memories. I have never ever, ever claimed that childhood was miserable in HH. But that has not been the point of what I have been writing, the point is, that Jesus was not Lord. I wish you could see this. The people are nice, even loving. Its just that the leaders become your conscience, thats what I was hoping that my journal excerpts would show. It was like I had two consciences. " Jesus in the flesh" and the " Holy Spirit ". |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:31 pm: |
|
I will just add that, what I thought was great and normal and loving in HH, could never compare to what I have now. It would be like living in a desert all your life, you would get used to it, maybe even love it, but if one day you happened across an oasis, or a tropical coast line, suddenly what you thought was so great....... maybe not so nice. |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 394
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.239.204.114
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:42 pm: |
|
Once again, DOwen's reality is supposed to be accepted as the ONLY reality. DOwen, I don't have any reason to doubt that every word you have said about your experience growing up in HH is true. I also don't have any reason to doubt that every word Truth_Hunter has said about his experience in HH is true. One is YOUR experience; the other is HIS. Does one have to negate the other?
My siblings and I grew up in the same religious group as my cousins. My family had a somewhat idyllic childhood with a strong family unit. My cousins were abused and victimized by a completely dysfunctional family unit, yet my uncle (their father) was revered as a spiritual leader in the group and so they suffered in silence.
Are either of our realities any less real? Has it ever occurred to you to count your blessings that you were spared? I do, but I still grieve for my cousins. It hurts to no end to realize that they were in such pain growing up and WE DIDN'T KNOW! I guess it would be easier just to say it couldn't have happened to them because it didn't happen to me.
I have been gone from that group for 20 years, but it is still very much a part of who I am. There are children in there now who are having an idyllic childhood like mine (and probably yours), but I also know for a fact that there are families suffering in silence as my cousins did because THEIR fathers are also revered as spiritual leaders. Do I turn my back on them just because I didn't suffer? Or do I do what I can to rescue them from the fate of my cousins? Because now I DO know, and I believe I am accountable for my knowledge. |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
|
Dowen,
You say TH’s journals are...”vicious and pitiful rantings” ‘writings that “sicken” you’. Then you acknowledge “his experiences may be true”, then you discount them by adding that you “sincerely doubt” they are true. You indicate TH’s experiences can not be true because they “are NOT common to all children growing up at HH!” You further discount TH’s experiences by adding ....“I, for one, had a wonderful childhood at HH, and my teen years spent at HH were some of the best years of my life.”
Common Sense said...“Once again, DOwen's reality is supposed to be accepted as the ONLY reality.” Why do you find it so difficult that someone had a vastly different experience than you did in HH.?
In one of my previous posts I talked about the blind men who were let in a room with an elephant. One described finding a tree, another a rope, another a spear etc... They all had very different experiences as they had touched the leg, tail and tusk respectively yet they were all touching the same elephant.
You are defending your experience, your family and whether you accept it or not your own personal beliefs that if are not the same as HH are at least very similar. That is OK no one would deny you that right. No one would call you a liar when you say you had a wonderful childhood at HH. Yet you insist on calling everyone flat out “liars” or at best our experiences are “vicious and pitiful rantings”. Why is that D.?
You said.....“The claim has been made that the only reason these disgruntled ex-members have assembled here is to "expose false doctrines". Certainly exposing false doctrines is part of why we “disgruntled ex-members” have gathered on this discussion board but that is not the “ONLY” reason. Part of exposing false doctrine is to share the fruit that comes from “false doctrines” by how it has effected the lives of the people who have been exposed to the false doctrine in HH. Which leads to another question, if you do not think there is any false doctrine in HH why did you leave? You call TH and the rest of us liars so apparently you do not think that any ex-members have really had bad experiences that was the fault of anyone except themselves.
You stated that you left as a teenager in rebellion to your dad in past posts. Now you have reconciled with your dad and the people in HH. Why don’t you join? This time be baptized take the oath sign the baptismal papers.
Like I said I understand protecting your family. If you think that the members in HH are just..... “'simple' people, they simply love Jesus, and everyone whom Jesus places in their pathway.” Why wouldn’t you just want to do that? If that is all there is to HH then what is holding you back?
You posted.....“TH has presented a number of accusations against HH since the inception of this set of threads concerning his family and friends at HH. I have tried, after each of his accusations, to find out the truth behind his malicious rantings. What I have found has led me to making the conclusion that he is a delusional and sad individual.”
You were looking for the “truth”, but you already knew before you started looking that everything TH said was “malicious rantings”. Is that a fair statement D.? Further any of the rest of the posters as you have stated many times that do not join you in refuting TH’s experiences must put in the same boat with TH. Is that a fair statement?
For the record concerning TH’s journal on this thread I will not refute anything TH has posted. They are his experiences. His journals are not inconsistent with the process I went through in leaving HH. (The issues were different because I am older and he was a teenager and young adult. The process is very similar.)
Bless you Daniel! May you find the joy of the Lord. May your family find God’s hand on you coming in and going out. May we all continue.......
Under Grace |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 270
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
|
Under_Grace,
You twist many of my words and place positions and other words in my mouth. Since that is the case, I will not waste any more precious minutes on trying to answer your tortured and convoluted questions.
Your second to last paragraph pretty much sums up where you stand, and as such I fear you are sharing ground with Korah. As for me, I will remove myself far from you!
In your desperation to disagree with me on everything possible, you entirely missed the message of my previous post. I am sorry for you, it is your loss.
Once again, I fear you are sharing ground with Korah, please, please, please reconsider your position and may God have mercy on you.
************************
I will part from this message board with the word's of Jude;
}Jude 1:4, For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
10 But these men revile whatever they do not understand, and by those things that they know by instinct as irrational animals do, they are destroyed.
11 Woe to them! For they walk in the way of Cain, and abandon themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error, and perish in Korah's rebellion.
12 These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they boldly carouse together, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, carried along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved for ever.
16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage.
17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."
19 It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit;
21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And convince some, who doubt;
23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing,
25 to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. Amen. }
And Amen. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 52
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:35 am: |
|
Daniel, May you find the Grace of God, in all you do. May our Lord Jesus, keep His hand upon you. May his Spirit continue to teach you all things.
I love you brother,
Jeremy |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:35 pm: |
|
Dowen,
You posted....“Under_Grace, You twist many of my words and place positions and other words in my mouth. Since that is the case, I will not waste any more precious minutes on trying to answer your tortured and convoluted questions.”
In my response to you D. I repeated your own words and ask you to clarify what you meant. You think that my reply to your post “twist many of (your) words and place positions and other words in (your) mouth.” I find that amazing since I quoted your own words and ask you to respond. Even the quotes that did not come from this post came from your own words in previous posts. I have said it before and it bears repeating, when there is a written record of what you have stated that is what we have to go by in discerning what you mean out of what you wrote.
D. you stated.....“In your desperation to disagree with me on everything possible, you entirely missed the message of my previous post. I am sorry for you, it is your loss.”
This is the summery of your answer to my post? I appreciate your concern about my being desperate. My point to is not that I am disagreeing with you ‘out of desperation’ rather I wanted you to see that someone who did not experience the euphoric things you did in HH could be sharing the truth! You even say that TH’s “experiences may be true”. To be fair you did add (which I sincerely doubt), yet for a brief moment you at least entertain the possibility that TH’s experiences are true.
If the experiences TH had are true and if the experiences were your’s Daniel instead of Jeremy, wouldn’t you at least warn people what they are getting into?
D. you rebuke and warn me.....“Your second to last paragraph pretty much sums up where you stand, and as such I fear you are sharing ground with Korah. As for me, I will remove myself far from you!”
In responding to TH’s journals in the “second to last paragraph” I write ....“For the record concerning TH’s journal on this thread I will not refute anything TH has posted. They are his experiences. His journals are not inconsistent with the process I went through in leaving HH. (The issues were different because I am older and he was a teenager and young adult. The process is very similar.)”
......You compare me to Korah because I do not refute TH’s journal of his personal experience in HH. I related to TH’s journals. My thought process was the same as Jeremy in coming to a place that I could hear the voice of God for myself and rather than having to go to 'the brothers' to hear God for me. (Let me clarify something here. You could come back and say that the leaders in HH want you to hear God for yourself and on the surface that is true. If you ask anyone in leadership at HH they will tell you they all are all about you hearing God for yourself. However, what lies beneath the surface is they will tell you when you have heard God speaking to you and coincidently it will always be the word they the (Elders or group leaders) have already heard or has already been written in the Temple Patterns and your job as a practicing member is to hear the word they already know.)
Before you told all of us (the posters on this discussion board) we were the same as the ‘murdering terrorists’ who killed over 3000 innocent people in New York City. We were the same as these murdering terrorists because we have come against the doctrine of HH. Now I am the same as Korah.
For those not students of Old Testament history allow me to share with you the seriousness of Daniel’s statement. The following is the story of Korah and his followers....
“.NU 16:1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites--Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth--became insolent 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"
“NU 16:25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins." 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
NU 16:28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
NU 16:31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"
NU 16:35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.”
Korah and his followers were killed by God because they came against God’s anointed leaders and the whole community of Israel. It was rebellion and their own words that caused Korah and his crowd’s death.
When I was in HH on several occasions I heard one of the Elders or group leaders refer to someone as having the 'spirit of Korah' or coming 'close to Korah' meaning that that person was rebelling against the leadership of HH. This scripture would apply to me if BA was set apart to lead the whole Body of Christ as Moses and Aaron were set apart to lead the nation of Israel. I would have the have the 'spirit of Korah' if BA had been given the direct word for the body of Christ as Moses was given the direct and only word for the nation of Israel.
We have stated it many times before. HH believes that when BA speaks it is the inspired word of God and is irrefutable. If this is not so why are they're no other Christian groups or churches that could come to a closed Sunday meeting and have another leader minister speak. Not a special meeting. A regular closed meeting. This does not and cannot happen because if you are not in submission to HH and BA you are not recognized as knowing the 'truth'.
If you ask anyone in HH if there are other groups walking in the truth, they will say yes. How about asking where these groups are and could HH recommend you going to submit yourself to one of those groups and if they ever have fellowship with those groups. The answer is no. Again they (HH) do not say they are the only ones with the truth but in practice they recognize no other group that is not submitted to them as having the truth. (HH would recognize many UPC ministers as at least having part of the truth because part of HH doctrine is tied to BA’s and HW’s UPC background.)
There are many threads on the HH section of this discussion board that will verify what I am saying and I will post on this in the next post.
Daniel’s (sincere concern) was that I was....“sharing ground with Korah.” His fate was to die being swallowed up under ground. My fate is to live eternally......
Under Grace |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
|
Hi DOwen and all,
Dowen,
"Truth_Hunter "copied and pasted" from his journal. Why do you support him "copying and pasting" yet persecute others for "copying and pasting"?."
Common_Sense gave an abbreviated response, but since this is a forum decorum issue, and potentially an intergrity issue, I would like to discuss it more.
This discussion is irrespective of how one views the journal from Truth_Hunter itself.
There are two separate problems with cut-and-paste. One is that it clogs up the forum, a diversion, with external thoughts from folks not even on the forum. In those cases a simple URL is sufficient, if the desire is to point people to those pages.
A second problem is when no attribution is given. That of course becomes an integrity issue. (In fact in various times this becomes even an issue with Christian literature, such as tracts.)
Neither of these two have to do with somebody sharing their own unpublished journal/diary, as done by Truth_Hunter above.
Folks may have various reactions to the journal, to the postings, in responding let's leave aside any canards, or misunderstandings, tis not a cut-and-paste issue.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
|
Old_Watchman (Phillip Arnn)
Phillip, you have three quotes here, and I find them rather combative and ill-supported. I will give each one, with a sentence or two response, trying to clarify the focus on your viewpoint.
"gross disregard for human dignity and personal autonomy"
Where in the Bible does it say that 'personal autonomy' is the sine qua non of a healthy, dedicated, committed spiritual life in Messiah? Is this a scriptural concept, or is it a humanist concept?
And the emphasis on 'human dignity' sounds almost like the human rights laws and organizations that would persecute and arrest Christian preachers for speaking againt homosexuality (as in Canada today). How do you differentiate your emphasis from the common usage today ?
"trying to take over and control other fellowships."
How would you differentiate a voluntary association, edifying for the Body of Messiah, from a 'takeover'? Might not a careful reading of the Book of Acts and the Epistles lead to a similar perspective acccusing Paul of a 'takeover' of various ministries and fellowships, or even a usurpation of doctrinal preogatives. In fact in some circles I even hear that accusation today.
"the oppressive heel of these self-appointed tyrants."
Here I think you are hoisted on the petard of your own rhetorical flourishing. Tis hard to know where to begin. So let me simply suggest a retraction.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
u_know_me (u_know_me)
New member
Username: u_know_me
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 68.89.244.137
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 8:20 pm: |
|
I thought maybe after all this time some of u could have moved on guess yall just need somthing to talk about or someone to make u feel better about your meaningless lives not that mine is any better or worse Jeremy when i was there u thought u were speaking the word of GOD 2me how can we sit around and talk about somthing that has more substance than we have found anywhere else r u all that childish? |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 71
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 67.22.113.160
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 9:18 am: |
|
meaningless lives? |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 1:59 pm: |
|
Missionary Lady,
At the top of this thread ‘u-know-me’ started a thread within a thread and I thought it might shed some light on where he (or she) is coming from. My response is added as well.
U-know-me
who in the world made any of u the athority on what a cult is? I dont agree with everything there but come on thats just ignorant.So what is this site a twelve step program 4 people who got sum feelings hurt and r having an identity crisis? MY FAMILY is there so now its getting personal . U say u didnt like it then leave, U say u did so move on Trust me when u have gone the places i have been u wouldnt think that what u left was so bad u might even welcome it I dont agree with sum of them and there r those u probably wouldnt want 2 leave in a room with me but there r more that i luv and miss so could we all just get along and quit sum of these petty allegations coming from people that feel hated on because they got kicked out cuz u were just trying 2get by not live 4 GODIguess i knew that i couldnt live a lye anymore thats why i left and they still reach out and try 2 save me i guessthats why i cant down them 4 what they believe cuz what dont kill us can only make us stronger Right?
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
u know me,
God bless you. To leave loved ones behind is tough. Wish it were true that "what does not kill us makes us stronger." It has been my experience that sometimes what does not kill us leaves so hurt that we wish we were dead.
Sorry that the discussions here are disturbing to you. Conflict is not pleasant but many times necessary. You mentioned...... "MY FAMILY is there so now its getting personal" It is personal for all the ex-members who left family and loved ones behind. It is our sincere desire to see those we left behind join us in the grace and freedom that we have found. I hope you find the same with your family someday.
I pray you find grace and peace in the place you are in now. Hope you are moving forward in your relationship with the Lord now.
Interesting creative way of writing, I know you did not pick that up in HH. Maybe you are on your way.
Under Grace |
hater101 (hater101)
Junior Member
Username: hater101
Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.113.70.166
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
|
Pig |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 1:59 am: |
|
Old Watchman,
Is your e-mail posted on the HH discussion board? If it is possible I would like to communicate with you.
Sincerely,
Under Grace |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
New member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
|
parnn@watchman.org
My full contact information is on the thread
"Contact Watchman Fellowship."
(Message edited by old_watchman on October 11, 2005) |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
New member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
|
hater 101
Love you too! |
farmall (farmall)
New member
Username: farmall
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 71.209.144.180
| | Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |
|
"Its just that the leaders become your conscience, thats what I was hoping that my journal excerpts would show. It was like I had two consciences. " Jesus in the flesh" and the " Holy Spirit "." jeremy has it right. |
old_watchman
Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 81
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
|
bump |
old_watchman
Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 2:35 pm: |
|
bump |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 375
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.94
| | Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
|
bump |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.3.115
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 8:13 pm: |
|
bump |
|
