| Author | Message | ||
     ejcimd (ejcimd) New member Username: ejcimd Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 198.182.163.102 |
I am very concerned that my sister has gone into a place that is so focused on making money. She has been to a revival, seminar, convention ever weekend for months now all related to the people below. I have copied these names off of the streams ministrys site at http://www.streamsministries.com as there were so many to list. Can anyone tell me about this group or any of these people. I learned about Cindy Jacobs from other posts on here. But I didn't see anything about the below listed persons and groups. Thank you to all who respond and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone but I am frightend for my sister she has blown thousands this year and I can't even have a regular conversation with her where it doesn't come back to dreams, visions, prophetic gifts, the third heaven etc. John Paul Jackson (John Paul Jackson has been at the forefront of prophetic ministry for more than 20 years. He served as senior pastor of two churches and he has also served on the pastoral staff at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Anaheim, California (with John Wimber) and at Metro Christian Fellowship in Kansas City, Missouri (with Mike Bickle). , Bob Jones, James Goll, John and Paula Sandford Elijah House, Steve Shultz The Elijah List, Rick Joyner Morningstar Ministries,Bob Jones & Keith Davis Bobby Conner Demonstrations of God's Power Bob Jones & Keith Davis Mike Bickle Friends of the Bridegroom Doug Addison Prophetic Evangelism Training & Outreach Paul Keith & Wanda Davis and Shawn Bolz WhiteDove Ministries | ||
| heart (heart) New member Username: heart Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.77 |
Ejcimd; I have heard of Streams Ministries, I have taken many of their courses as well as met some of their leaders and read their books. I can tell you that they are good in nature and believe in orthodox Christian doctrine. They do however take some scripture out of context and they teach some things that may not be real Biblical. I do know that they also teach some good things. They do look and feel kind of like a cult which may not be such a great thing. As for all the rest of the people on the list I have read many of their books also some of which are good an some not so Biblical. And just the same as any ministry, some of their focus is money which may in some cases not be of God. I would suggest that you pray for your sister that she does not put her main authority or belief in these people but that her main authority and guidance is in the Bible. And pray that she is wise with her money. (Message edited by heart on September 08, 2005) | ||
| bracken New member Username: bracken Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 209.89.72.192 |
Ejcimd, I read your post and my sister is also just about to leave for streams ministry and I am very concerned and frieghtened for her. I feel she is going to a cult. Can you please contact me with your experiences over the last two years and if your sister is alright. my email is bracken_m@hotmail.com | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
bracken and ejcimd, I used to go to FSM, led by Mike Bickle and fully connected with streaming ministries... all i have to say is, please read my post about mike bickle being a cult leader. Its true. Its very bad and is getting worse. I was there for over two years before they tried to send me away. Whatever you do, DO NOT LET THOSE GIRLS GO THERE! Or to anything related. They're all the same. Anything involving Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, William Branham, etc etc etc, is very very bad. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
ps. It will be very difficult, if they are too deep into it, to get them to open their eyes to see what's really going on in these places. Its SOOO easy to get reeled in. I never thought it would happen to me. But they twist scripture and use lofty language to make what they're saying valid and even amazing. It sounds true and its very tricky. They also use occultic-type practices (as some other pentecostal churches may also do, but they are worse) to put the "experience" behind the words to validate what they are saying. Much like a sorcerer could. These experiences are typically: visitations, dreams, visions, extra-biblical revelation (usually unbiblical), fake "prophetic" words, tingly feelings in your body, burning sensations, electricity sensations, falling over, barking, shaking, convulsing, literal birth pains (in both male and female), etc etc etc. If you want/need more info ask me whatever you like. I could probably help you more than most since I had been there for years and got out of it, by the grace of God!!! | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2070 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: Would you mind sharing why you believe visitations, dreams, and visions to be un-biblical? I've seen all of that in the Word. Yes, some of the things you mention are wrong, like barking, but nothing is wrong with falling over, and some of these other things. | ||
| exihoper Junior Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
i am not saying they are wrong in it of itself. What I am saying, though, is two things: 1. Not all dreams, visions, etc are from God. that should be a no-brainer 2. It is required at IHOP as confirmation or proof (as is the gift of tongues as proof you have the baptism of the Holy Spirit) that you are in God or whatever. THAT is wrong. Not the dreams, etc themselves | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2072 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.225.163.158 |
Exihoper: First, I agree with you that not all dreams and visions are from from God. I would hope that they would teach enough "dream interpretation" at IHOP to discern that. By the way, John Paul Jackson (who is MUCH MORE BALANCED than Bickle) of Streams Ministries believes that you can have dreams and visions that are NOT FROM GOD. In fact, in his dream interpretation seminars, he talks about how you can distinguish the two, etc. This is the view that I take. While I like JPJ/Streams, I am less of a Bickle fan. Second, what did you mean by this "confirmation or proof" thing at IHOP? You are required to have dreams and visions to confirm God's will for your life - ??? Hmm. To me, that may be extreme, but a valid interpretation of the Scriptures. It IS prophecied in Joel 2, and re-prophecied in Acts 2 that in the "last days" (which includes the present time) that people of God will have dreams and visions. I think it is NORMAL to have dreams and visions, as a Christian. If you are not having dreams and visions, then that is OK, too. It does not make you less of a Christian, or less spiritual. But I do think dreams and visions should be normative, much like baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues should be normative for all, as well. What do you think about that? | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 53 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
I think 1 Corinthians 12 is very clear that NOT EVERYONE speaks in tongues, not everyone prophesies. So that tells me, when someone says that "tongues is proof that you have the Holy Spirit" not only is that not biblical but its also misinterpreting acts 2. I dont know much about JPJ, except that bickle supports and is linked to him. Yes, IHOP teaches that you MUST have a sign/wonder to prove/confirm. That's NOT biblical. Though Acts 2/Joel 2 does say that people will dream and have visions, you must read it in context. Its says IN THE LAST days God will POUR OUT HIS SPIRIT ON ALL flesh THEN the sons and daughters will prophesy, dreams, visions, etc. His spirit isn't being poured out like that right now. unless you think pentecost was the pouring out and we've been in a perpetual "last days" season. I do believe the gifts are for today and that God puts His Spirit on people today, dont get me wrong. I'm just saying people go overboard with certain scriptures, if that makes sense. It is normal to have dreams and visions. I get them all the time. But to say you MUST have them, is wrong. Same with any and every other gift. We should earnestly DESIRE all gifts, especially prophecy (well, especially love), but that does not mean you will get them all. 1 cor 12 is clear, the Spirit gives to whom HE wills, not to whom WE will. hope that clears it up. oh, and while i'm on 1 corinthians 12, it also says that above all else we must LOVE. That is the thing IHOP lacks the absolute most. It reminds me of the church of corinth who, though they moved in the gifts more than any other church, they were also the most corrupt. Which goes to show that, just because a church/movement looks good on the outside, does not mean they are actually good. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2075 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.96.140 |
Exihoper: When 1 Cor 12 talks about "not everyone speaks in tongues, not everyone prophecies," its not talking about the devotional use of tongues, but the use of tongues in order to minister to other. As regards to prophecying, Paul makes it very clear in 1 Cor. 14:1, "Covet (desire) spiritual gifts, esp. that you may prophecy." The way the gifts work in 1 Cor. 12, et al, is that they are manifestational. The Scriptures are very clear that the Holy Spirit is sovereign in distributing these gifts. I believe these gifts are available to EVERYONE, i.e. EVERYONE can minister to someone else in tongues, EVERYONE can minister to someone else with prophecy, etc. This is why Paul said, "Covet spiritual gifts." Sure, not everyone is going to do these things all the time. But what happens when someone delivers a prophecy or a message in tongues, or exercises another one of these manifestational gifts is that the anointing of the Holy Spirit comes on the person so strong that a spiritual gift manifests itself, thus the reason the gifts are called "manifestational," i.e. these gifts are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Thus, ANYONE can minister to another person in tongues, or prophecy to someone else. Now, speaking in tongues is not just a spiritual gift. Tongues are only a gift when they are used to minister to another person. Paul also discusses in several places in the Word (and not just in 1 Cor.) the DEVOTIONAL use of tongues. This is what Paul is saying when he discusses "praying in the spirit." I believe that the reference to "praying in the spirit" in Jude is ALSO a reference to praying in tongues. The purpose of the devotional use of tongues is NOT to minister to someone else, i.e. its NOT a spiritual gift. Rather, its to build yourself up (read Jude). If someone says, "tongues is proof that you have the Holy Spirit," I would ask them what they mean. Tongues IS proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as evidenced in Acts 2. It is NOT proof of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is salvation. So, I'd need clarification there. And yes, I do believe that we're in a perpetual "Last Days" period, which I believe begun when Acts 2 actually occurred. It has not stopped to occur, and so God has continued to give His people dreams, visions, signs, wonders, spiritual gifts --- all are part of the present ministry of the Holy Spirit. I agree that to say you MUST have dreams and visions is wrong, but that they should be normative. I think what Bickle and others are promoting is that God would regularly visit His people, including during the night, and I don't have an issue with that --- because we should all desire God to visit us frequently. Lastly, I agree that love is key. If you say Bicle is WOF (which I would argue he is not), and that Bickle is NOT walking in love (on that I would give him the benefit of the doubt), then Bickle is a hypocrite. But I'll reserve judgment on that one, exihoper. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1710 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Jonathan promotes a distinction that is entirely absent in scriptures. In the same context he uses to defend the practice of "prayer language" the Apostle Paul clearly implies that not everyone speaks in tongues. Only by denying the clear evidence and trying to speak louder than everyone else has Pentecostalism/Charismaticism convinced people of the coherence of their doctrine of tongues. It is a lie and deceit of the devil. | ||
| exihoper Member Username: exihoper Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 75.87.113.172 |
Actually, I believe the Bible never makes a distinction between devotional and ministry use of tongues. Even 1 Cor 12-14 tells us that tongues is ONLY to build ourselves up, not others. I believe your interpretation of those scriptures are unbiblical. It was obviously something you heard from your church and isn't something you would learn simply by reading the scripture on your own. As for someone saying, "tongues is proof of the HS" they were meaning required proof that you had the Holy spirit indwelling in you/baptism. Tongues is NOT proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is proof (IF it happens) that the Holy Spirit is pouring out, but it is not needed as proof, if that makes sense. As for your argument about "perpetual last days" with dreams, etc. If you fill a room with people your parent's age or older and ask them to raise their hands if they had dreams/visions growing up, I am positive the outcome would be small if any. But fill a room with people our age and ask the same question, nearly everyone would raise their hand. I don't agree that it started in Acts 2. Why? Like I said, there were obvious requirements in Joel 2 that haven't occured yet. Acts 2 has yet to be fullfilled, though there are a major increase in Spiritual gifts since the first century church. I think its rather strange that you stick up for a man and a movement you know little to nothing about. You haven't been involved in the IHOP school or movement like my entire family, friends, and I have been. All with similar experiences and results. I really think you shouldnt stand so strongly on something when you have not heard the sermons, talked to these leaders, been under their wing, seen the deception first hand, seen the things that go on there. You say you dont believe Mike bickle teaches or believes certain things when I have heard it out of his own mouth on more than one occassion. I would pray about why it is you feel you need to stand by someone you dont even know. ps. mcm you are right-on once again. Paul CLEARLY said that NOT EVERYONE does it. And he never made the distinction that you have made. | ||
| jbkrems Senior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 2077 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.160 |
Exihoper: Well, no, 1 Cor. 14:22 makes very clear that tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, and so what you said was wrong, when you said, "tongues is ONLY to build ourselves up, and not others." No, that's incorrect, exihoper, because Scriptures like 1 Cor. 14:22 contradict what you said, sorry. Next, there is a distinction between the indwelling Holy Spirit, which occurs at salvation, and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. If you go through the Book of Acts, whenever a believer (someone who was already a Christian and who already had the indwelling Holy Spirit) received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, MOST of the time the normative evidence was the person spoke and praised in tongues. That is what happened in Acts 2 and in Acts 19, among other passages. I'm sorry, but what you said about Acts 2 not being totally fulfilled did not make sense to me. Sorry. Lastly, what "man and movement" are you talking about? WOF? IHOP? JPJ? Bickle? Something else??? I don't know what you think I'm "sticking up for" - ??? I actually know a lot about WOF, IHOP, JPJ, and Bickle, and a lot more. I know others personally who have been involved with IHOP in KC, including a VERY close friend of mine (Nate Panke if that means something to you), and I have other personal connections to IHOP. Bickle is originally from St. Louis, as am I, and I am familiar with his biography. I've heard Mike Bickle and Lou Engle preach at conferences, as well. I've attended two "The Call" events personally (one in KC, and the other in DC). I've heard Bickle preach on several occasions, i.e. two One Thing conferences, one in KC and one in St. Louis (2003). I have read most of Bickle's books and I am familiar with the Bride-groom paradigm that permeates Bickle's ministry. I really do know what I am talking about here, and for you to say I do not is arrogant. I'm very sorry you feel that way. |
