| Author | Message | ||
     forgiven_much (forgiven_much) New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.153.237.152 |
“If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed, and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” Jesus said, “ I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by me.” “Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby you must be saved.” “ Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.” Forever_His, I want to thank you for your sweet, clear testimony. Many years ago, I was the leader‘s wife who came to your house with two leaders to tell you that you were turning your back on the authority of God if you left HH, and to try to persuade you that it was your total submission to the authority of God come through human flesh -- the ones in authority in the “Body“ that your salvation depended on. I‘ll never forget as we all sat in your bedroom, away from the children so they wouldn‘t hear the discipline you were getting, your calm, fully persuaded insistence that it was the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ that was shed as he was beaten and hung on a cross, that has the power to cleanse us from sin. That blood of the New Covenant, that God made with man, when He promised to give us a new heart, and write His laws in our hearts and minds; the new heart He gives us by His mercy and grace, by faith, that is a replacement for the old, deceitful heart. The Holy Spirit lives inside us once we‘ve been born again by faith in what He‘s done for us ( not our works of daily “dying“ to our flesh, or some leader‘s “death“ he “dies“ for us each day). Because we are now a new creature in Christ, have a new nature and a new heart, we will mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit. Not by men. As you spoke, I could not help but agree with you. You looked so happy. Then , the day you and your family left HH, you came by our house to tell me good-by. That was not the norm…when people left, they usually slunk away in shame or left in anger or bewilderment; but you were the happiest I’d ever seen you and you were confident you were obeying the Lord in leaving. You told me God had much more for me, and that you knew that in my heart, I wanted the reality of God. You were right, and I thank you for planting those seeds, even though I know it was hard for you to break through the taboo of saying such a thing to a leader’s wife who was “over” you. Thank you so much. When I left HH, and went to an elder to share my reasons for leaving with (which included the same reasons you had)., one of my main ones was that the Lord Jesus Christ ( the One who was born of a virgin, Who died and rose again for me, and Who is coming again in the clouds of heaven just like He went away; not the “Body of Christ”--HH) was Lord of my life, and a relationship with Him , by the Holy Spirit, was vital. That relationship does not depend on other men, or my submission to them, or trying to do “everything God has told us to do” ( which in HH language means many rules or “patterns” added to the written Word of God necessary to “make it”). The “word” that comes through the ones in authority in HH is equal to or more important than the written Word. Their literature is the elders’ interpretation of scripture and ideas they claim to supposedly have received directly from God for the members of HH to live by., and must confess them to be the word of God to be a member. I know the written Word must have the anointing of the Holy Spirit on it to come alive to us. Holy men of God of old were anointed by the Holy Spirit as they wrote, and He will take His word and anoint it afresh to us.. God can also speak to us in our hearts, or through others, in visions, dreams, audible voice--- any way He chooses, but this word will never contradict, add to, or take away from the written word. Many commandments of men are taught and impressed upon the members of HH; varying forms and degrees of “discipline” are practiced for not only breaking these rules or patterns, but you can be grilled for months as to why you; did what you did which can be intense mental, emotional, and spiritual abuse. The leaders control their members through fears of many kinds: of discipline, humiliation, loss of fellowship, loss of position, going to hell, having a fatal accident, having cancer or tumors, never being anything in the kingdom of God unless you do what they say and submit totally--many kinds of manipulation. They are the only ones the word of God to you can come through. PLEASE, oh please, if any of you in HH read this---the Lord Jesus Christ loves you so much. He wants to have a relationship with you. You don’t have to go through a man, or men. When Jesus died, the veil in the temple ,which up until Jesus died ,hung between the people and the Holy of Holies that only the priests could go into--it was torn from the top to the bottom. We can all now go into the presence of God, into the Holy of Holies, and meet with God Himself. There is no veil separating us from Him We don’t need a priest or the “body of Christ” to go get the word of the Lord for us. We can boldly go to the throne of grace, through the blood of Jesus---it’s a new and living way he has provided for us. We are made a kingdom of kings and priests unto God. It is only those who want to hold control over others who require others to go through them to God. Yes, I believe there is such a thing as Godly authority; it is to build up, encourage, others; not to lord it over God’s people. When I left HH and shared my heart with an elder, which are some the very things I’m sharing in this post, I knew that because of my decision to leave, and willingness to speak the truth in love, I would not be allowed to have a relationship with my daughter, who is married to the founding elder’s oldest son, and my five beautiful grandchildren unless I “repented” and submitted to more manipulation from the elders. When we left, my husband and I were in leadership. My oldest son, who at that time was still a member, was not allowed to attend meetings for awhile because of the way our characters were destroyed from the pulpit. Very amazing to me, and really sad. We’ve been told by many who were there at the time a lot of the lies and defamation; some lies so terrible, that our friends were embarrassed to tell us. We were not surprised, though; we’d sat through many of these “murders” before. I want to ask everyone who is in HH who may read this message that we were responsible for bringing into the group, please forgive us. We have repented with many tears for not heeding the warnings God gave us when we joined, and for not facing and acknowledging and obeying God’s promptings to leave sooner than we did. Because of our disobedience, many of you are now a part of HH. But we pray for everyone who became members because of us (and others we dearly love) that God will also deliver you. We love you. It may feel impossible to break loose, but Jesus came to set the captives free. Nothing is impossible with God. | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.55 |
Dear sister, It was nothing but the love of God that compelled me to go to you. He deserves all thanks. Dear friends, It is the same love that compels us to plead with those who are still there. How could we sit by and not share with you what God has shared with us. I too have repented for the part I played in my family joining HH and for the part I played in the lives of the visitors who stayed in my home. God has forgiven me, I too ask for your forgiveness. <<<< But we pray for everyone who became members because of us (and others we dearly love) that God will also deliver you. We love you. It may feel impossible to break loose, but Jesus came to set the captives free. Nothing is impossible with God. Amen. Yes <<<<<PLEASE, oh please, if any of you in HH read this---the Lord Jesus Christ loves you so much. He wants to have a relationship with you. You don’t have to go through a man, or men. When Jesus died, the veil in the temple ,which up until Jesus died ,hung between the people and the Holy of Holies that only the priests could go into--it was torn from the top to the bottom. We can all now go into the presence of God, into the Holy of Holies, and meet with God Himself. There is no veil separating us from Him We don’t need a priest or the “body of Christ” to go get the word of the Lord for us. We can boldly go to the throne of grace, through the blood of Jesus---it’s a new and living way he has provided for us. We are made a kingdom of kings and priests unto God.<<< He loves you so much!!!! | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) Junior Member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
What is wrong with me? Why do I not feel abused by HH? Why do fond memories fill my mind when I think of them? Why can I not believe the things that are being posted here? Why, even after I left, in my great anger and confusion, I could not bring myself to lie about HH? Maybe it is because the love that was given to me by them is still alive in me. Maybe it is stronger than the lies, the deceptions. Maybe it is the hope that is still in my heart from how I learned there how much God loved me, and how good it was to live my life for Jesus. Maybe it is because I remember how they told me that Jesus' blood covers my sins. Maybe it is because they DID continually speak of grace and forgiveness. Yes, there were hard words sometimes. But even now, those words are what gives me hope and peace. May God bless those messengers of His Word. And may God help us all, Very_disturbed | ||
| forgiven_much (forgiven_much) New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 70.245.198.86 |
Someone who had visited HH several years ago and knew who my husband and I were , said recently that of all the women they had seen in HH, I seemed to be one of the happiest. There was a time when I was almost completely under the delusion that the leaders of HH were truly Jesus Christ come in the flesh, and I would’ve done anything to please them; anything they would have asked me to do, anything, I would have done it. Just to think that I didn’t have to wait any longer for Jesus to come back; he was already here!! I bowed my knee to “him” ( to them ), spiritually and physically. But the voice of the Holy Spirit groaned inside me, and I always had a strange feeling that something was wrong. Sometimes I heard his voice clearly, and as if awakening from some kind of spell, would know that Jesus alone is Lord---” You shall have no other gods before me”. I would almost panic, not knowing how or what to do to escape from the trap I was in. But then, guilt and doubts and confusion would come on me; sometimes in a dark blanket that crushed my head down so I could not raise it, and breathing was nearly impossible. I would cry out in repentance for my “rebellion against God’s authority” and confess the pride that caused me to question it. I would confess anything I could think of. I would sink right back into the stupor of loving the “ order of God”, which means in HH language, the order of authority in the “ Body”, which means total submission to them. When I knew the elders were happy with me, then in my mind, God was happy with me. When they were cold and displeased with me, I felt God was displeased with me. I could not distinguish between the two; they were one and the same. I remember falling down on my knees before an elder’s wife, sobbing, asking for forgiveness for whatever it was I’d done; I didn’t even know, but I couldn’t stand the coldness and rejection any more. I told her, in front of a room full of nursing mothers that when she and the other elders were happy with me, I knew God was, and when she and the others weren’t, God wasn’t. She nodded in agreement and smiled like I’d gotten the message. It had been months since I’d felt anything but God’s great displeasure with me---I didn’t even know why; I couldn’t even pray. But when the Holy Spirit’s gentle anointing began to break the yoke of bondage I was under, my confusion began to dissolve. “ God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and love, and of a sound mind”. “Stand fast , therefore, in the liberty wherewith Christ has set us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage”. “It was for freedom that Christ set us free”. That word for freedom means freedom from the law. There were also many times of feeling the elder’s pleasure: “God’s “ pleasure. These were happy times except for the gnawing uneasiness that it might not last. My husband and I also were some of the main ones to reach out to visitors ; spend time with them and try to see if they might become members. We were all responsible , as members, to present a good image of the fellowship and make it seem like heaven on earth. We were nothing more than the emperor in his new clothes. But when we began to humble ourselves, acknowledge that we’d put other gods before us, repent before God, and make decisions to speak the truth, even though it meant we’d lose our family , our reputation, our favor with the elders, be shunned….God gave us grace. “God resists the proud, but he gives grace to the humble”. I just want everyone who is in the bondage we were in and don’t seem to know how to get out, please have hope and faith that God will show you what to do to be free from the shackles you feel bound by. Jesus came to set the captives free. He will show you the way and give you the grace and help you need . | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) New member Username: under_grace Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.153.236.197 |
Dear Forgiven Much, How blessed I was to read your posts. You and your husband are heroes of the faith as far as I am concerned. I want to thank you both for giving all of us encouragement. I decree and declare that someday you will be reunited with your daughter and grandchildren. God Bless you and your family. As you stated so beautifully now I know the sweetness to be Under Grace. | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) New member Username: infreedom Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.91.218 |
Dear Forgiven Much, I also have been blessed to read your posts. It's thrilling to hear such an authentic testimony to the lovingkindness of our Lord. Your words have made my heart leap up with strengthened hope as I pray for the freedom for those in bondage. Thank you so much. | ||
| very_disturbed (very_disturbed) Member Username: very_disturbed Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.27.7.241 |
Keep reinforcing each other. If you do it enough, you may actually believe it yourself. And you may convince others as well. Sorry, doesn't work for me. May God help us all, Very_disturbed | ||
| couldbe123 (couldbe123) New member Username: couldbe123 Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.128.176.216 |
Forgiven much, I wanted to add my own appreciation to the others expressed here. I copied your post above and left it out for my family to read. The perspective of someone who has lived under a cloud, and then been freed, was very moving to all of us. The biggest blessing, to me, from reading many of the posts on this board, is seeing the heartfelt appreciation that many of you have of the grace of God. When you share your excitement over the gospel, it's as though I am hearing it again for the first time. Thanks for continuing to share. Please know that you are really touching my family with your testimonies. | ||
| common_sense (common_sense) Intermediate Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 137 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.239.204.29 |
Forgiven much, I, too, want to add my appreciation for your testimony. It truly blessed and moved me! With your permission, I would like to copy it over to a thread pertaining to the legalistic, spiritually abusive group that I grew up in. I post there under my real name. | ||
| forgiven_much (forgiven_much) New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.154.229.155 |
Yes, friends, you may use anything on these posts as you please. ----------------- For many years, many people in the civilized world did not believe that there was persecution and torture and abuse in communist countries. How could there be? They had just been there their last vacation or two. They had seen the store windows full of food. The people who risked their very lives to cry out the truth of the abuse were viewed as either crazy or having an agenda. Little did those visitors and tourists know that the tours arranged for them always followed a certain route made to look nostalgic, interesting, and certainly safe, enough to make all the rumors look not only false, but ridiculous. Oblivious to the fact that the only places they were allowed to visit were staged to look not only normal, but inviting, and certainly, as much as any free country, well provided for. On the streets right behind the strictly enforced tour routes, lived the real world. The one or two loaves of bread or rolls of sausage that sat temptingly in the store windows (if anything at all),were priced so exorbitantly it was difficult to purchase. Starving multitudes would, hungry and longing, stare in the windows as they passed by on their miserable search for a lone potato, onion or even a rat they might find on the street to somehow feed their families. Then, they must hurry and make the curfew or the same police who had led the last tour for the day, their visitors tucked away in some visitor’s cabin, or hidden behind closed curtained windows of their monitored hotel, would round the corners to shoot or imprison or torture the stragglers who had not had enough “fear of God” in them to keep the rules. My desire is not to tear down anyone. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers; against the rulers of darkness in high places. Jesus said whatever we do in secret will be shouted from the housetops. There is so much that at the proper time, place and way, will be exposed. We are told not to have any part with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather to reprove them. I pray that as the truth continues to come out about HH, that the many people still in it who truly love the Lord Jesus Christ will listen to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit as He urges them to wake up, listen and flee. Many of you do not know what goes on behind the scenes you are supposed to see. Many of us have been off the staged route. We’ve been on those streets of reality; some of us have been on the police force. There are no illusions for us anymore, only the pain of reality, and the desire to help others find the way out. We were told the “world” was an unsafe place outside our “garden of God”. Fears of mingling with the rest of society, except, of course, the visitors who came to our “paradise” for one of our “tours”, or those who blindly and naively confessed we were “of God”. That only here could we find real love or true Christianity. We were the “ark of safety” in these troubled times. Well, I want to give God glory. He is so much bigger than any of us. Heaven and earth cannot contain Him. He loves us. He has people in every city and town and country who love Him and belong to him, and are the people of God, true Christians. What a joy it’s been to meet and get to know so many of them!! It’s possible to find true freedom from sinful habits, including sexual sins and raging tempers, fears of all kinds---everything that has us in bondage to our flesh, other people or any other god except the God who created us and is our Father. Please, as the woman on the train to Auschwitz cried out until people thought she’d lost her mind ( the members of HH know what I’m talking about),” I SEE FIRE!!!”, I urge you to leave while you can. Please don’t let your perceived “place of safety” become your tomb. Remember the thick History book and how we felt to finally, after years of waiting for it to be finished so we could teach our kids history… the obsession with ancient civilizations that entombed live family members and servants together with a leader who died… What a contrast to Jesus’ words, ”I have come that you might and life and life abundantly”. Yes, we go through many trials and learning to walk in the Spirit, but when he lives inside us, His very life within produces the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self control for us. Please choose life. | ||
| forgiven_much (forgiven_much) New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.153.236.203 |
Isaiah speaks of the sober responsibilities leaders have, before God, to shepherd the people of God; how those leaders who mistreat God's people will pay the cosequences. God loves His people. Of course, love includes discipline,administered in the right way, not through anger, yelling, intimidation, fear, screaming, ramming fists through windshields, hanging up the phone on those you want to intimidate,....Love is not rude; love does not threaten. God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, who willingly laid down His life for us. Love is gentle. Love is kind. It is full of mercy and good fruits. Love does not push itself forward. Love is not puffed up with pride. Love doesn't scream, rage, or threaten curses. Love doesn't humiliate, lie, and crush down, or act in unseemly ways toward those it professes to love. Jesus said He came to serve, not to be served, and we through love are to serve one another. Love is not rude. Love is not easily provoked, or angered. Love never fails. Love rejoices in the truth. I think of the people who have poured gas on themselves and their children,then lit it. I remember the ones who have shot themselves and their children; those committed to insane asylums. The list of tradgedies and casualties goes on. When people are stripped of faith, hope and love, there's nothing left. Please wake up!!! I think of one brother who took you to court for writing the shamefully slanderous book defaming his character. You quickly settled out of court by paying him $ 2,000. 00 more than he asked for, knowing he could have sued you for many times more; then had him sign a waiver to keep quiet about it. Many of you submit to the abuse, and then turn around and abuse others ( HH's way of proving you are a man and are willing to be an extension of the authority of God ). Many of you remain there, even after driving your sons and daughters away by your severity and refusing to protect them from the abuse of every kind they have experienced. You stay, paying "penance" for past sins that haunt you. Just as surely as crawling barelegged across miles of crushed glass or nails does not atone for sins or gain the favor of God, neither does submission to men who have put themselves in the place of God over other people's lives. Please!! We beg you in Christ's stead, be reconciled to God. The cries of your children who have endured abuse, neglect, humiliation, cry out. They are not sure who to cry out to because you have made God look so severe and unloving. He's the last one they can imagine going to. But as surely as the blood of righteous Abel cried out to God from the ground where Cain spilt it, so your children's cries do rise to a loving Father who sees everything. To those of you who are tormented by past and present sins---Jesus Christ died for you. There is forgiveness and cleansing in His blood. Call on Him; He wants to reason with you. He wants to give you an encounter with Himself that will change your life. There is a way out. "The Spirit and the bride say 'come' !". Let him that is thirsty come and buy living water of life without money and without price. Jesus Christ already paid the price for us. | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.79.206.186 |
bump | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
bump | ||
| missionary_lady (missionary_lady) Junior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.38.92 |
The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin...I am sure we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. But if forgiven it is as if it had never been...cast into the sea of forgetfulness. | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.0.38.67 |
bump | ||
| pureheart (pureheart) Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.157.244.33 |
I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Mahatma Gandhi | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.183 |
Bump for those still in HH who we love dearly!!!! | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) Junior Member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.33.108.15 |
bump | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 183 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.2 |
bump | ||
| yeoman New member Username: yeoman Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 64.246.4.2 |
Dear Forgiven Much, Thank you for sharing your heart above. Could I ask a question? Is it true that after your family left HH you and your husband rebaptised some or all of your children in the titles? Thank you, Yeoman | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 331 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Yeoman, It is unclear whether forgiven_much is still reading the forum. The posts were last year, and they were part of the only group of posts that forgiven_much put in, per a Factnet search on the name. Perhaps the one who was in dialog with her would know and answer. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 191 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.189 |
Perhaps the one who was in dialog with her would know and answer. If you mean me; I have no idea what he/she is even talking about. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 335 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi foreverhis, Yes I was thinking of you. I think the question is clear, however I have no idea how close you are or have been to forgiven_much and family, I was just going by the thread. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 194 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.189 |
I still have NO idea what He/she is talking about. LOL. Unfortunately I have had almost no contact with Forgiven Much. I do not know the answer, even if I knew the answer to any question concerning her, I would not answer for her. I hope to get reacquainted with her. I love her dearly. I have moved across the country and I pretty much secluded from other ex-members. There are just a couple I manage to occasionally keep in touch with by phone or e-mail. Life as mom of 8 keeps me busy. You may have noticed there are seasons where I can steal some time to post here often, then time comes again where even reading this forum becomes impossible. By the way, if my children had been baptized in HH, I would encourage them to be re-baptized. Fortunately, none were. My husband and I were baptized before HH so we see no need. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 337 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Foreverhis, do you understand the meaning of the expression "rebaptised some or all of your children in the titles?" ? Feel free to answer privately, if more appropriate. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 195 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.81 |
I am sending you an e-mail | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 265 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Hello, I am writing for my mom, (forgiven much) she will write when she gets a chance. To answer Yeoman, none of my brothers were baptized in HH, therefore not re-baptized. I just spoke with my dad and he said the church they attended after HH baptized in both the titles and the name of Jesus. Hope this answers your question. | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 266 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
ART, You insult me if your question is sincere. | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
No one was re-baptized. No need to keep it private. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 655 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.121.43 |
I was told by HH that your family rebaptized and also told this by Sister Roxie...that is very sad if they are lying... But of course it was told that I did not join because I am rebellious...so I hear... | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 656 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.121.43 |
TH I am so glad you posted...thank you. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 338 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Well, I cannot comment on who said what on the particular rebaptism question, since I have not been in any such loop. However, the following explanation leaves a lot uncertain. "baptized in both the titles and the name of Jesus." That can be understood in about three different ways. The two unlikely ones are.. a) different baptisms for different folks b) folks get baptized in two different methods, such as being baptised twice (for a type of sijmilar absurdity, historically, see the Didache) Then there are the third possibility, what I would call attempts at hybrid formulations. Examples are .. "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Ghost" "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son , and in the Holy Spirit, in Jesus name" "in the authority vested in be by Jesus Christ, I baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and in the Holy Spirit" And a number of other such formulations. Sometimes the people who do this are quite forthright that they are trying to "cover all bases". However the word of God is sharper than man's compromises. So oneness folks generally consider these formulations as not efficacious (in regards to the supernatural experience of remission of sins). The reason is that the hybrids do not acknowledge all of Deity directly in the name of Jesus Christ, nor do they really obey the command of Matthew 28. To be complete, one possible exception, quite rare, would be .. "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Ghost, which is the Lord Jesus Christ". Since that would affirm the full Deity of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, since the baptism issues are themselves supernatural, that is not a formulation you are likely to often find. Please understand that the people who do not accept the scriptural basis of water baptism for remission of sins will often fudge their explanation, since they do not acknowledge the distinction anyway. Thus if one asks a Trinitarian if they were baptised in Jesus name, without the context of the differentiation, they might say yes, even if baptised in the titles, since they simply do not understand and realize the fundamental distinction. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 660 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.71.231 |
I don't quite understand ART when you said you are weeping? I guess I am naive...is it because of what I said? I am just saying I was told not one time but several times this whole family was rebaptized? Sorry if I said something wrong. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 661 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.71.231 |
I don't quite understand ART when you said you are weeping? I guess I am naive...is it because of what I said? I am just saying I was told not one time but several times this whole family was rebaptized? Sorry if I said something wrong. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 662 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.71.231 |
I don't quite understand ART when you said you are weeping? I guess I am naive...is it because of what I said? I am just saying I was told not one time but several times this whole family was rebaptized? Sorry if I said something wrong. | ||
| forgiven_much New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.93.156.205 |
Dear Yeoman, You asked me if we had rebaptized any of our children in the titles since leaving HH. HH’s policy on baptism is that you have to be “of age” to be baptized, which the elders say should be around 18 years old. People have to be “old enough to know what they’re doing”, as baptism there means you are making a covenant until death (with curses following if broken ) with the “people of God” at HH. You must be “convicted” and “confess” that this is the “only place for you” and must also be “convicted” and “confess” that you will follow all the “patterns” ( rules and regulations ) the elders lay out (which changes from time to time ). Since the elders there are the “authority of God in human flesh”, whatever they “feel “ or say is the word of God to you. So, your “confession” at baptism, as you agree to “work out your own salvation” by your religious works , is a serious commitment with severe consequences if your vows to them are broken. In Mark 10:13,14,people brought young children to Jesus that He should touch them. His disciples rebuked them . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased and said to His disciples, “Suffer” (permit, let alone ) the little children (young and half grown, any age) to come (accompany, enter, grow) unto me, and forbid (prevent or hinder) them not for of such( of this sort, in their individuality) is the Kingdom of God. Amazing how when men and women are truly full of the Holy Spirit of God, they will have real love for children. Any rebaptisms that we may feel to do, would be because that, because of the elder’s claim to be Jesus Christ come in the flesh, when they baptize someone into the Name of Jesus, they are being baptized into the “fellowship”, and that’s where their loyalty is supposed to be. Every bondage to any other spirit needs to be broken, especially to an antichrist spirit, one who has put themselves in the place of Christ, and attempted to grasp a place that does not belong to them. When someone is baptized into another’s name, he is closely bound to, or becomes the property of the one’s name he was baptized into. We belong to the Lord Jesus Christ, not to men who claim to be Jesus in the flesh, so lording it over Gods people, usurping a place reserved for God alone. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, and He is the One who shed His sinless blood on the cross for me, for all of us. That’s where the forgiveness of sins comes--through faith in his finished work of redemption on the cross, which cannot be added to. It is finished. | ||
| forgiven_much New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.93.156.205 |
The Word of God says, “ For by grace ye are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.” The Word of God is very clear that “It’s not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us , by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.” The word regeneration means the spiritual re birth, spiritual renovation, Messianic restoration. It is the two fold operation of the powerful Word of God and the anointing of the Holy Spirit that washes and makes us clean. I Peter 3:21 says, “Baptism doth now save us; not the removal of the filthiness of the flesh,( that’s the cleansing work of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not our participation in the life of the body--again our own good works) but baptism is an appeal to God by a good conscience against wrong doing through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Not only did He die for the forgiveness of our sins, He rose again to give us life; and if that same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us, He will make us alive in the Spirit, and the victory that he won, will be ours also. Because my younger six boys were under 18, my two older children are my only children to have been baptized at HH. The younger ones, soon after we left HH 5 years ago, heard clearly the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, asked the Lord Jesus to cleanse them in His blood he shed on the cross for the forgiveness of their sins, gave their hearts to Him, were born again, were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, into the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,, and began their journey growing up in Him. My oldest who left with us was 15, and my youngest was 5. Jesus said “whosoever will may come.” He calls to all who are hungry and thirsty to come to him and eat, without money and without price. “Whoever is thirsty, let him come to me and drink”. “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice, and will open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me.” | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 683 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.128.69 |
Dear Forgiven Much I am praying for you and your family. Please find strength for the journey, light for your pathway from our dear Jesus... Your Friend: Sister Alvear | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 684 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.83.119 |
Art...I don't think they will mind me mentioning here, they did not rebaptize. These are precious people. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 685 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.83.119 |
Art...I don't think they will mind me mentioning here, they did not rebaptize. These are precious people. | ||
| forgiven_much New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.93.156.205 |
When we were baptized in HH, the words "in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ" were right and good. But when men use the name of Jesus to draw disciples unto themselves claiming to be Jesus in the flesh,they stand in His place, which is the spirit of the antichrist that Jesus warned us about. The spiritual bondage and deception that came with the submitting ourselves to that unholy spirit is what God's word and Spirit are washing us from. That would be the reason for any rebaptism; into the Name of Jesus, not imposters. We belong only to Him; He alone possesses us. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 686 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.83.115 |
I might give a testimony here. Both my mother and father were baptized twice in Jesus Name. The first time they baptized they had just come out of the world and did not know anything about God. In time they found out they were in a church of deep error and felt to be rebaptized. I personally think they did not have to but for some reason they felt to. I believe the Lord accepted your sincerty because you were baptized and in your heart as public confession to HIM no matter what HH told you. But I personally see nothing wrong with you feeling to or not to. MY family is in deep prayer along with many other people for all of those that have left and are leaving that place for God to lead and guide each one. Thank you for making it public because I like many others were told different. It is 4:49 AM by my clock and I am weeping for all the souls that are bowing to man instead of God............ | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 356 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Greetings, forgiven_much. Above I discussed a bit the question of what is said in baptism. (You are welcome to comment on what I shared). Above you shared that your children were .. "baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, into the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (And apparently that is what you would do in the situation of 'any rebaptisms that we may feel to do') This formulation is not something I have run into anywhere, and is in the category of what I discussed, one of the hybrid formulations. On examination, it appears to be inbetween the two sections above. Could you share if this is your own private formulation, or whether you received this from a church body (that you are involved with?), a body that generally baptizes in this manner? Thanks for your assistance. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 268 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Because of your past inclination to not truly seek out answers but to insight an argument, run in circles, distract and confuse, I for one will not entertain your request Prax. I do not believe you are sincere in your request but in actuality seek a confrontation that will lead nowhere since you and others like ART cannot see beyond your own pharisaical noses and doctrinal circles. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 359 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hmmm.. rather a revealing response to a question that I was very careful to ask precisely and respectfully. Readers can note my efforts above to be detailed and accurate in discussing the formulas used in water baptism, in Jesus name or other modes. And I think those who have been quick to accuse on this thread, on any side, should take careful note, and that there is a real gap of basic information here. And Mrs. Alvear, as a oneness evangelist, you might want to be especially careful that you are not mixing possible Trinitarian (or non-oneness) inspired, non-efficacious baptisms with baptisms for remission of sins in Jesus name. By using an analogy of family who were baptized twice, in Jesus name both times, with a situation that appears to be quite different, the concern is raised as to whether you are holding to the oneness standard in this case. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 198 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.138 |
Oh bother!  Truth Hunter I agree with you. It is useless trying to carry on a conversation with some one who is so pompous. Readers, for the record, Trinitarians do not believe there is more than one God. I know Holy Ghost baptized and anointed Trinitarians and Oneness believers. If they are good enough for God they better be good enough for me. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 688 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.164 |
Prax: I know several people that were baptized twice for the same reasons... I am not an evangelist... your sources are failing.. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 689 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.164 |
Prax: I know several people that were baptized twice for the same reasons... I am not an evangelist... your sources are failing.. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 690 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.164 |
Prax: I know several people that were baptized twice for the same reasons... I am not an evangelist... your sources are failing.. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 361 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Mrs. Alvear, missionary is fine, I am happy to be corrected. My sources are what you write here. I understood that you and your husband are involved in preaching and evangelism thoughout the USA and Latin American, so that the term evangelist would be ok. My error if that term is not applicable to you. However, you are not really relating to what was shared. Please, let me ask you this, Mrs. Alvear. How do you feel if somebody who received the oneness revelation with Jesus name baptism is then rebaptized in a Trinitarian titles or hybrid formulation? Do you consider that as being "baptized twice", or would you be concerned that it is a denial of the Jesus name baptism, with the revelation of one God in Christ Jesus ? Please, Mrs. Alvear, if you do answer, then answer sincerely and to the question. Foreverhis, it is telling that the folks who are most strongly opposing HH are denying the distinction between Oneness and Trinitarian understandings, and whether baptism in Jesus name is efficacious unto remission of sins. You may no longer consider these understandings and experiences from the Bible as significant, however many others here do. And of course, I never said that Trinitarians "believe in more than one God" so the strawman stuff is not appreciated. I would say that the doctrine of "three coequal coeternal consubstantial persons in the Godhead" and other similar Trinitarian formulations, is severe error and is a principality behind rejecting baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, as the Bible teaches. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 691 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.35.164 |
Prax: I know several people that were baptized twice for the same reasons... I am not an evangelist... your sources are failing.. | ||
| forgiven_much New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.93.156.205 |
Dear Missionary Friend, Your love for the Lord Jesus and His truth are such an encouragement! Your sweet spirit is a reflection of your relationship with Jesus Christ. Dear Other Friends, I refuse to exalt any doctrine, no matter how true it may be, or any other idol. Jesus said if we would lift him up and exalt Him, He would draw all men unto himself. So that's my only desire-just to lift him up and give Him glory and honor for Who He is and what He's done for us.There is nothing too hard for Him. He will set us free from every bondage and sin if we will only let Him. | ||
| forgiven_much New member Username: forgiven_much Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.93.156.205 |
Dear Missionary Friend, Your love for the Lord Jesus and His truth are such an encouragement! Your sweet spirit is a reflection of your relationship with Jesus Christ. Dear Other Friends, I refuse to exalt any doctrine, no matter how true it may be, or any other idol. Jesus said if we would lift him up and exalt Him, He would draw all men unto himself. So that's my only desire-just to lift him up and give Him glory and honor for Who He is and what He's done for us.There is nothing too hard for Him. He will set us free from every bondage and sin if we will only let Him. | ||
| math Junior Member Username: math Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 68.93.156.205 |
you are all a bunch of babies arguing over who has the right opinion on •••• that dont even matter were all goin to hell any way. and praxaluah.. or whatever the •••• your name is •••• off w/ you and your SHALOM ••••. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 692 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.70.233 |
Prax writes: Please, let me ask you this, Mrs. Alvear. How do you feel if somebody who received the oneness revelation with Jesus name baptism is then rebaptized in a Trinitarian titles or hybrid formulation? Do you consider that as being "baptized twice", or would you be concerned that it is a denial of the Jesus name baptism, with the revelation of one God in Christ Jesus ? I can only say if HH baptized me I would get baptized again...and it would be in Jesus Name. I would personally never consider any other way. I am not here to judge Forever His they have been judged enough from HH. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 693 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.70.233 |
Prax writes: Please, let me ask you this, Mrs. Alvear. How do you feel if somebody who received the oneness revelation with Jesus name baptism is then rebaptized in a Trinitarian titles or hybrid formulation? Do you consider that as being "baptized twice", or would you be concerned that it is a denial of the Jesus name baptism, with the revelation of one God in Christ Jesus ? I can only say if HH baptized me I would get baptized again...and it would be in Jesus Name. I would personally never consider any other way. I am not here to judge Forever His they have been judged enough from HH. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 365 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Greetings, Hi Mrs. Alvear, thanks for at least responding to point, much as I disagree strongly ... I was baptized in HH and have always deeply appreciated the experience, the touch from God. Anyway, I remain astounded that you will not comment directly on the 'rebaptism' of another being trinity formula or Bible, as that would be to 'judge'. However, we can leave it at that. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| meye_view New member Username: meye_view Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 12.65.108.3 |
Amen Forgivenmuch, many of the divisions over baptism and countless other doctrines have been a disgrace to the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. There have been untold baptisms in the name of the “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” where the Spirit, and character of Jesus was present in great power. And there have been baptisms in the name of “Jesus” where He was nowhere to be found. Am I saying it is wrong to baptize in the name of Jesus? No! I am saying that “in the name of” implies the character and authority of, not the words we mouth. If someone feels they have the truth on this or any other doctrine let them share it in the love and grace of Jesus Christ, but stop condemning and bringing division to those that Jesus Christ died for. Let each of us be convinced in our own minds and allow others the same liberty that was also purchased by the precious blood of the Lamb. The letter of the law brings death, the Spirit life, which will you choose? | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 700 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.37.4 |
Prax I thought I answered what else do you want me to comment on? If rebaptism is valid? | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 701 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.37.4 |
Prax: I do not believe HH was always so off target...I am sure you were blessed. I am only saying I would rebaptize because of things I personally know but will not write here on this public board. I have only been baptized once. I was only 7 years old...like I said in another post my folks felt to be rebaptized and they were baptized twice in Jesus name. and no I would not baptize in the titles...I already have had the Name Jesus called over me. If you are saying is it right to use any other words than in Jesus Name I don't know. Some say Lord Jesus...some say Lord Jesus Christ some say in the Name of the father son and Holy Spirit which is Jesus...some say Yahshua, Yehoshua, Y'shua, Yeshua, Iesous...I've met a bunch that say a lot of different things... To me the Name Jesus is the saving name. Acts 4:12. Have I said enough? I don't know all those terms you use...Jesus has got me through life's trials. He inherited the name...and I received it. I stake my whole salvation on the Name of Jesus. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 702 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.37.4 |
Prax: I do not believe HH was always so off target...I am sure you were blessed. I am only saying I would rebaptize because of things I personally know but will not write here on this public board. I have only been baptized once. I was only 7 years old...like I said in another post my folks felt to be rebaptized and they were baptized twice in Jesus name. and no I would not baptize in the titles...I already have had the Name Jesus called over me. If you are saying is it right to use any other words than in Jesus Name I don't know. Some say Lord Jesus...some say Lord Jesus Christ some say in the Name of the father son and Holy Spirit which is Jesus...some say Yahshua, Yehoshua, Y'shua, Yeshua, Iesous...I've met a bunch that say a lot of different things... To me the Name Jesus is the saving name. Acts 4:12. Have I said enough? I don't know all those terms you use...Jesus has got me through life's trials. He inherited the name...and I received it. I stake my whole salvation on the Name of Jesus. | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 367 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, One preliminary note. When you accidentally put a post in two or three times, it is easy to delete the extra posts for up to a half-hour. I do it all the time  . ============================= Mrs. Alvear, you commented well on what I asked, it is appreciated, and I understand that you would only baptize in the Bible fashion, as in the name of Jesus Christ, or the Lord Jesus Christ, for remission of sins. My concern remained your reluctance to 'judge' hybrid formulations, if they are done by those who left HH, whether initial baptisms or rebaptisms. Initial baptisms are clearly of primary importance, whatever ones view of rebaptisms. Surely there are many formulas that in other situations you would rightly 'judge' as non-Bible since they are a denial of the name of Jesus Christ. I gave three such examples above... http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/12350.html?1151328225#POST307103 And I think you would agree, on examining, that these examples do not declare the name of Jesus as the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" .. and are, to say the least, very questionable. (By comparison, your formulations above were generally the better variants, where the name of Jesus is fully Deity.) So I do hope you would have similar concern if folks leave HH and baptize in such a manner as my three examples above, rather than simply say you will not 'judge'. More especially if it were an initial baptism. Surely, at least in cases like the three examples above, you would be concerned about the error of baptizing not in accordance with the Bible. =========================================== Incidentally, I realize there are many here who sincerely do not accept the significance, efficaciousness, importance of the name of Jesus in baptism, and you are welcome to share your view, as meye_view did above. And my purpose here is not to try to convince you otherwise, although such discussions are welcome and may do better in private or small groups. Please do understand however that on this point Mrs. Alvear and myself are largely in agreement, and we are trying to hash some questions out. Again, I appreciate that Mrs. Alvear has taken the time and effort to affirm some truths above. Thanks. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 441 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.35 |
Bump for the members of HH. May you know the Only Begotten Son of God, Jesus, who freely gave His life for the ransom of yours. May you know Grace and the free pardon of sin. May you peacefully sleep in His presence; knowing your Salvation Has been secured. May you wish to live for such a great and loving Savior. May you days be full of the joy salvation brings. Oh, What A Savior He gave His life's blood for even me. Once I was straying, in sin's dark valley, No hope within could I see. They searched through Heaven and found a Savior, To save a poor, lost soul like me. Oh, what a Savior, oh hallelujah! He gave His life's blood for even me. His hands were nail scarred, His side was riven, He gave His lives blood for even me. Death's chilling' water I'll soon be crossing, But His hand will lead me safe oe'r. Then I'll join the chorus, in that great city, And I'll sing up there forevermore! Oh, what a Savior, oh hallelujah! He gave His life's blood for even me. His hands were nail scarred, His side was riven, He gave His lives blood for even me. http://www.harmonymusic.com/SoundClips/CD03/Oh%20What%20A%20Savior.ra | ||
| foreverhis New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Bump | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Bump for current members. You are on my heart and in my prayers. FH | ||
| missionary_lady Intermediate Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 190 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.21.62.196 |
and in mine also. |
