| Author | Message | ||
     godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 533 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.213 |
A church is only a place to worship God. It is God you should desire to know. Pray to Him, with adoration, acknowledging He is the One true God; confession of our failures; thanksgiving, acknowledging Him as the source of all we have, and supplication, (Asking Him to fill our needs): not for a 'burning of the bosom', which could be a mild case of indigestion or an attempt to please those around us. | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
Do you believe that Joseph Smith Translated the Golden Plates? Do you believe that Jesus Christ Visited America? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, has many many many bold claims (historical, scientific), and you must know that not one of them has be proven wrong, and that there is an extremely large amount of evidence that proves those claims to be true. The only thing people can disagree with are the principles and ordainances of the gospel. But if you know that it must be by the power of God that these things are true and that the Golden Plates are real, why would one question the things we are taught by the Church? Of all the religions i have investigated, the Mormon relgion has stood out amongst them, there is an answer for everything within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Anyways gtg ttyl. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
I investigated the Mormon cult, too--in fact, I recieved the "ordinance" of baptism in it not once, but twice. And a patriarchal blessing (which was a whole lot of hooey, looking at it years later), and the "ordinance" of a Temple Endowment. Heck, I even got my mission call from M Russell Ballard himself--he had a lot of "answers", too. But as much as I loved that man, he was still wrong--and so was I for believing that Mormonism was "the True Church..." You are correct, there is an answer for everything under the sun within the LDS "Church". The author of those "answers" is Satan--preaching that "different gospel" that the Apostle Paul warns us so strenuously against... There were no "golden plates" (this is a fact that can be easily established just by reading JS Jr's disclaimer in the Palmyra edition...), just as there were no Nephites and Lamanites and the myriad of other allegedly "Jewish" descendants in the ancient American continents (There were no Jews here, period. Only Asian descendants...). Tell me, Love. If the BofM is true, then please explain to me how it is that in "The Great Battle" that destroyed--according to the book of Mormon--hundreds of thousands of people and horses, leaving no one to bury the dead, and chariots, battle gear and all kinds of "metalurgy" cast about, why had NO ONE *ever* discovered any archeological evidence of such a thing occurring anywhere in the North or South American Continents? When you consider that this alleged "battle" occurred around the same time as Mohammed and the writing of the Q'ran (c. 500AD)--according to the professed BofM timeline--and considering that we still know the location and purpose of Mecca, one would think that at least *some* shred of tangible evidence could be found to authenticate all the many thousands of people that JS Jr. claims are lying around a field somewhere. What, were they raptured? IF JS Jr was a prophet, and God "revealed" these ancient languages to him, how is it that he extrapolated most portions of The Pearl of Great Price from what has been established not as an esoteric book of Moses, but a death scroll from an Egyption tomb? And if Joseph Smith Jr was a holy "martyr", why did he die whilst taking the lives of other people??? Holy men don't give their lives to GOD while murdering others. Wake up! I think you'd better leave FARMS "research" alone and go start reading some other evidentuaries ("American Apocrypha" is a fine place to start) before you go touting the glories of the Mormon cult. I'll even provide you with a book list, if you like. BTW: That "burning" in your "bosom" that you use to "testify" of these things to yourself? That there is heartburn, Love. Take an antacid and burn the Mormon propaganda in the backyard--you'll be fine. In His Grace, miki (Message edited by pointlessshrew on August 06, 2005) | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
miki, You are not accomplishing anything. My faith in the Holy Ghost is as a rock to your accursed behaviour. Your words cannot affect me, the Lords Spirit protects me. Amen | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
My accursed behaviour? Sweetheart, the only spirit "protecting" you is that demon on your back plying your eyelids closed with his talons. There's nothing holy about it. You are accomplishing nothing by answering a defense of the truth about the cult to which you belong with fluffy, vaccuous "testimony" claims of subjective, emotionally-"proven" sidesteps. If you're going to reply to my posts, Thomas, at least have the brass to give them some substance, for crying out loud. If anything, all you're doing is making my task (shooting holes in your false "testimony") all the easier... And, BTW: The Holy Spirit is the guy that took me out of the cult Mormonism--so I'd watch the claims you'd make in His Name... In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
miki id like to help you, add me waterfire7@hotmail.com MSN You are not accomplishing anything.(Holy Ghost) (shooting holes in your false "testimony") | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
Want to help??? Take the beam out of your own eye *first*, Thomas. Go learn what it is you *don't* know, *then* come back and tell us that the ghost of Mormon mythology told you it's all good... Pardon, my wayward brother, but I have already been "helped"--I left the cult that you are beholden to. Until you can demonstrate that you can give an intelligent, educated response to the issues I have outlined (as opposed to the baseless tripe you've doled out thus far) then we have nothing to discuss. In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
Educated response would require an "Educated" question. eg. miki says: Q. "State your Educated query here" Thomas S says: A. "Educated response goes here" If you require more than a few lines to make your point, it can hardly be called 'Educated'. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
Gee, how impressed am I. Something wrong with your comprehension skills, Love? Need "help"? Man, you seriously should take a step back and look at this thread objectively, Thomas. You have yet to make any case at all for Mormonism... In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) Junior Member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
I have faith that someone who is truely looking for the truth, will want to know the answers to my 'Questions'. All you are trying to do is get in the Lords way. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 52 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
Your "questions", as you call them, are nothing more than carrots dangling in front of a trap door to the Hellmouth. Did it occur to you that maybe the LORD sent me to put me in *your* way, Thomas??? I was not intending to spend my whole night here on this forum--I should have been in bed hours ago. I fact, I was--until I decided to turn on the pc and ended up confronting your smoke and mirrors. Faith in a lie is just as deadly as no faith at all. So you keep at it, if that's what pops your cork... In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) Junior Member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
Adieu | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 555 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.151 |
thomas, You claim, as other mormons have here, that there is a great deal of scientific and historical evidence to support lds claims. Show us (1) one! | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) Junior Member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html <-- This site has alot of proof. The thing we all need to remember is that evidence to either prove or disprove the Book of Mormon is not really enough, eg. First translation of the Book of Mormon was not the Original copy of the Book of Mormon but was the Printer/Publishers copy so all study done on it may be considered a heresay. The scientific evidence is also more of a heresay. The Bible is also a heresay, no-one really knows if the Greek manuscripts were exact translation of the Original writings of the anchient prophets. And the Book of Mormon supports the Bible. So if we ever find out that the Original Book of Mormon, and not the Original First Publishing of the Book of Mormon is false, then too must we think of the correctness of the Bible or legitamacy. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 563 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.70 |
First you say there is all this historical and scientific proof for the bom and now you give a link but then say it is all hearsay. Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Your last sentence is really too absurd. Saying if the bom is proved to be false that will also prove the Holy Bible to be false. That's a stretch. You need to take some history lessons. And study a little science. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 564 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.70 |
I'll tell you what. Spend a little time just reading the past postings on these mormon threads and you will get a real eye-opener. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.129.33.82 |
Like I told you last night, Thomas, call Ron Romig (archivist) at the Worldwide Community of Christ. The Palmyra edition does, in fact, match up with the autographs of Joseph Smith's "scribes"--which Emma Smith preserved. That's not hearsay, that's fact. And you, my friend, are using any excuse you can find to avoid the objective truth. That doesn't sound like a gift of the Holy Spirit, but fear. I looked at your webitte--there's nothing here but a lot of indefensible extrapolation and wishful thing. I already have this book, and it is just alot of hooey. It was entertaining, but not worthy of any further bother--the alleged "facts" don't cut the mustard. Try again--and next time use non-sectarian evidentuaries; objectivity has never been the Mormon "scholar's" strong suit. (And you really should heed Godchild's counsel--she's got your number, bubba.). In His Grace, miki (Message edited by pointlessshrew on August 06, 2005) | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.129.33.82 |
Thomas writes: "...And the Book of Mormon supports the Bible. So if we ever find out that the Original Book of Mormon, not the Original First Publishing of the Book of Mormon is false, then too must we think of the correctness of the Bible or legitimacy..." First of all, this sentence makes no sense. Second of all, your reasoning is circular and unfounded. Your thesis assumes that the Bible is dependent on a complement to prove it's veracity and authenticity. This is unfounded, and untrue. Third of all, just because Joseph Smith plagerised wide swaths of material from the King James Version of the Bible, retained even their errors, and inserted them into his Mormon novel, it cannot be assumed that "the Book of Mormon supports the Bible". One does not follow the other--again, you resort to rhetorical fallacy to "prove" an errant assumption. It might also be of interest to you (this just popped into my head) that while Joseph Smith Jr claimed that the KJV was "the most accurate of all Bible translations" (though that didn't stop him from screwing around with it, too) the Translator's Preface of the 1611 Publisher's edition of the KJV states very emphatically that the KJV is *not* an inspired translation of the Bible. Likewise, the translators made no assertion that their manuscript was free of error. This fact is reflected in the Book of Mormon because the BofM is saturated with Joseph Smith's "borrowing" of passages that retain both the idiom and error of the original writers--English scholars in the employ of the King, not ancient American "prophets". As regards your statement pertaining to the "Original" Book of Mormon, better read you History of the Church, again, Ducky--the Palmyra edition was made from the copies that were saved when the first edition was burned by opposers--and it's the same edition that Joseph Smith and his gang of merry men used while tramping around the eastern states looking for converts. Again, finding doubt where none exists to rationalise persisting in error... In His Grace, miki | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Thomas... you wrote. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, has many many many bold claims (historical, scientific), and you must know that not one of them has be proven wrong, and that there is an extremely large amount of evidence that proves those claims to be true." We have another mormon who states such things. I state this again as I have stated may times in this LDS forum There are no archaelogical findings to support the BoM There is no DNA evidence to support the BoM. So please Thomas show me the scientific facts you talk about that have been proven. They cannot be scientific facts if they are not proven facts. Nulla | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.168.62.128 |
Nulla, Are you talking about joesdad ("another Mormon")? I think they both meant science...fiction... I'm only kidding--I couldn't resist. I'm still waiting on his scientific "proof" regarding the Great Battle and the Book of Moses' suspect origins... Something tells me that neither of us will ever get a straight answer, because none exist. In His Grace, miki | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Hi PS, .... nice to meet you. Re other Mormons.. I do find that unless they are informed or well read on the subjects they tend to feel that there is heaps of evidence out there to support the BoM. I find it disturbing that when confronted the tendency is to try and use the bible as a comparison for their lack of evidence. The time difference between the bible especially geneses and the BoM when doing so of course plays a major role in trying to get the message across. Myself and JD had heated debates on this subject but my major problem was another who does not seem to frequent the site any longer. I am still waiting on a reply by this person re certain claims of fact in his last post to me regarding the Papyrus... I think I shall see if the new blood now posting can further enlighten me on this subject as I have not been able to get the Mormons side to the papyrus saga. Nulla | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.142.94.126 |
I have a book on the subject, if you are interested. One of the problems with the Mormon cult is that objective intellectualism elicits a visceral fear in Mormons that causes them to turn on the student of truth--so your experience is to be expected. Mormon intellectuals who take a dispassionate stance as to the nature and origin of Mormon "scripture" and doctrine are at once more reasonable and quite often the target of persecution amongst their own ranks. At the time I left Mormonism--first in 1992, and again in 1994, there was an unspoken, yet well-understood, corporate policy to harass and calumniate serious students--either driving them out of the "Church" altogether or forcing them into exile, as my own experience can well attest. The archivist at the Worldwide Community of Christ, whom I have mentioned previously, has had contact with many of these. Sadly, there exists a deposit of objective scholarship that people like joesdad and Thomas will most likely reject as a matter of course without ever challenging it directly for the simple fact that it makes them squirm... In His Grace, miki | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 180 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Thomas… you wrote: “Do you believe that Joseph Smith Translated the Golden Plates?” Answer: Nope. ( I actually thought the view is that he was given the words directly from god via a seers stone) “Do you believe that Jesus Christ Visited America?” Answer: No. Thomas: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, has many many many bold claims (historical, scientific), and you must know that not one of them has be proven wrong, and that there is an extremely large amount of evidence that proves those claims to be true.” “Of all the religions i have investigated, the Mormon relgion has stood out amongst them, there is an answer for everything within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.” I would like to ask for your LDS answer for the below, for it seems by your statements you have read in depth and compared all religions, in doing so surely you must have read with great interest and discussed with your fellow members and church leaders the Book Of Abraham and its origin. I ask then why does the LDS and its site still show the facsimile copies one, two and three and clearly state on the header of each page of the book of Abraham. “THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH.” Mormon Records ". . . in the afternoon we translated some of the Egyptian records. . ."(Ibid, Nov. 24, 1835) More Mormon Records "The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients" (Joseph Smith, July, 1835, History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 238). "A study of the document [Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar] suggests that it was formulated by an ancient writer, probably Abraham, to assist a translator in deciphering the language in which the record was written. If this conclusion is correct, Joseph Smith literally translated an alphabet to the Book of Abraham" (Hyrum L. Andrus in his book Doctrinal Commentary on the Pearl of Great Price, 1967, 1970, p. 25). Fact: Not a single word, thought, or concept from Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham, including his explanations of his three facsimiles, is in any way related to the subject matter of the common Egyptian funeral texts from which they were supposedly translated. Furthermore, modern examination of the "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar" papers that had once so greatly enhanced the Mormon Prophet's claim to be a true translator has exposed them as a collection of gibberish, having no connection whatsoever to genuine ancient Egyptian. Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 572 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.114 |
And let's not forget, Joseph Smith is the only person ever to translate a "Reformed Egyptian". | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.170.96.125 |
What Nulla is talking about, Thomas, can be seen in all it underawing glory in the book, "...By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" by Charles M Larson. I sincerely suggest it to you for your introductory reading. My copy is the 1992 revision--it was one of my research books from the time I was discerning the unadulterated truth about Mormon claims. It has full colour photos of the original papyri now owned by the Metropolitan Museum in New York (on display), originally purchased by JS Jr. and subsequently claimed to be the basis for the Book of Abraham (*not* Moses--I seriously need some sleep...) and the Book of Joseph--which was never published. One of my favorite chapters in this book is Chapter 13: "The Criteria For Rationalisation" which gives a very sensitive, yet forthright, treatment in to how Mormons are duped into believing as they do. Before you cry foul, you should know that Charles Larson is not a bigoted or unfeeling scholar--he has great love for Mormons as people. But his understanding of their sensitivities allows him to be wholly honest on this subject without prejudice or sneering. It was a great help to me in my own studies, and is very well documented, using photostat evidentuaries where ever possible. I highly recommend it. In His Grace, miki | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.170.96.125 |
Good point Vivian... And I'm sorry to be rude, Nulla; nice to meet you, also. I do want to point out one thing--let no one forget that Thomas believes that *anything* he says regarding Mormon doctrine and history is above scrutiny. Remember, he thinks that he's no more culpable than an investigator in any assertions he makes because he's new to this game of cat and rat...(does anyone have a bucket...I think I may be sick...  ) In His Grace, miki | ||
| dondi (dondi) New member Username: dondi Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.233.207.96 |
Man you guys seem to know your stuff. I love it. Cult research is a hobby of mine and the mormons rate pretty high on the meter, I think the scientologist rate higher cuz they have the e meter LOL | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Intermediate Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.166.230.113 |
Hi, dondi Once you've been thoroughly indoctrinated in any cult (or done a serious study thereof...) it's hard to forget. It's almost as if your brain has been rewired and all this seemingly useless info just sits in a filing cabinet, refusing to move out. I've been out of the Mormon cult since 1994 and a decade later I still catch myself falling back on false doctrines I learned in Mormonism. The hardest one for me is "fine matter". I don't know why, but every now and again it creeps up on me... I've wanted to compare notes with Godchild, but I'm working on a manuscript right now and time is limited. A friend of mine recently asked me to horn in on another forum here, and once I did I found even more to do... ...There are never enough hours in any day... In His Grace, miki | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 579 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.207 |
miki, I saw your post about sharing docs, books, etc. I doubt if I have any books you don't already have. You can email me anytime at vivart@cmextreme.com. Please explain 'fine matter'. I'm not sure what you mean. My greatest problem (mormonism creeping in)is works. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Intermediate Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.142.154.186 |
Hey Vivian: The Mormon books I'm looking for is just about anything pre-1948--especially the BofM or church magazines and missionary tracts. I'll have to look through tonight to find the exact references, but I call to mind the teachings of Joseph Smith Jr--most easily remembered is his rendering of the "personage of the Holy Ghost". He called him "a man with flesh and bone, a body like you or I". His explanation for this was that the spirit [general] is made up of "finer" matter--but matter nonetheless--than the matter that makes up the world we can percieve with the senses. This *really* screwed me up--for a teenager whose fascination with the paranormal was profound to become a nursing student with this kind of mythology floating around in her head as fact...well, let's just say it took a long time to discern between the reality of Scriptural evidence and the fallacies of Mormon subterfuge and tale-spinning--long after the fact of my disassociation and subsequent excommunication... I know how the works problem goes, as well--and I *completely* sympathize. It's especially hard when I go back home to visit and meet up with Mormons I grew up with--they always want to categorise my life according to their sectarian rationale, and I always walk away feeling like a dirty sloth, regardless of how many times I tell myself I've done nothing wrong. Strange. In His Grace, miki | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 587 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.25 |
If I find what you are looking for I will most definitely let you know. Would love to see your views on cultbusters.com.au sometime. I think you might find things of interest to you there. I don't exactly feel like a dirty sloth  , but I do feel lazy, (for want of a better word). The mormon leaders were very smart to in-corporate this doctrine into the church. People don't have time to 'stop and think', they are so busy with geneology, meetings, mormon book study and so on. The Relief Society is really bamboozled. The Relief Society President said "We need to learn how to be happy". Duh!!! Is happiness a learned process? The most popular class in our branch was a young woman (with 6 small children) who taught 'organization' by emptying your house of anything that has to be dusted, essentially, so you would have more time for craft projects and geneology. They really stressed the 'idle hands are the devil's workshop'. My Mom still tries that when she calls; "What are you working on? What do you mean, nothing. You HAVE to be working on something. You know Heavenly Father will take your talents away from you if you don't use them." I'm 57 and still find myself gritting my teeth before calling her. Her intentions are so good, poor thing. She really believes this stuff is what God wants for our lives. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 217 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Miki , i have bom & d & c from the 1950's as well phampletts late 50's & 60's , Got them at a yard sale, the bom actually has a burgundy cover . A preface actually states that the American Indians are the remanants of the house of Isreal. Boy in 1950's they didn't know DNA would tripp them? | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Intermediate Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.158.23.53 |
Hey, Steelsword. Even now they are denying the DNA proofs, as much as they can. "Misology in action" is what I call it. I read a new Guardian article the other day that just made me sick--one of their own experts being excommunicated after having published an evidentuary regarding DNA and Native Americans. The sickening thing of it is that they used an old alleged affair to justify the excommunication. Yeah, right--use any excuse that will do. The burgandy BofM you've got--is it the hard cloth cover with the tapered corners and the gold embossing? That's a posh volume to have--hold on to it. That is the first BofM I read as a child. My friend Janet's brother gave it to me when I was about 10. I loved it because my edition was tiny, not because of the contents. When my dad found out I had it, he burned it in the fireplace whilst lecturing me on the evils of Mormonism, never realising that his hostile actions actually had the effect of pushing me nearer to "the Church", not farther from it... I'd love to see the pamphlets you've got. And I know what you're talking about, Vivian. I remember this older sister in my home ward. I was very fond of her because she looked like Santa's wife and had the sweetest personality--she always looked you square in the eye as if she was reading your soul when you talked to her. Anyway, she came and gave a talk once in our Young Women's group entitled, "Happiness is a Consequence". She went on to explain in finite detail all the ways we could "show gratitude for this gift of the Church and our testimonies that our Heavenly Father has given us" by using our talents to further the cause of "the Church" and carry the "gospel message" to the world. Unfortunately, the ways to do this were things like the judicious maitainance of a two year supply, making our "modest" (read: antiquarian and binding)clothes by hand, canning, sewing, gardening and babysitting/child rearing--basically anything that would keep us running a household like a military installation. It spelled the germination of the seeds of a very deep depression for me--not happiness. I always felt that I was never doing enough, or that what I was doing was good enough. The "authorities" in my ward and stake didn't make it any easier with their regular judgements. One good thing that came out of that experience for me was that I became compulsive about making all of my embroideries and cross-stitch pieces perfect--front *and* back. To this day I can put together an embroidery faster and more perfectly than anyone I've ever known. It's great when someone wants to pay me to do something for them. But it's murder when I go home to visit. I always go to see my "Aunt" Nona (a school friend's mom) and, inevitably, the first words out of her mouth are "What are you *doing* with you life today?" It drives me insane--no matter what I tell her, she's got a new laundry list of accomplishments to tick off for all of her kids that makes me look like a slug. And yet, she's family to me and I love her...whatchya gonna do??? Pray to Jesus for patience, for one thing.  In His Grace, miki | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 220 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Miki , maybe i can get you e-mail , & send you a photo of what the covers are like. Steel. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 593 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.49.234 |
Have you all checked out the fairboards discussions (mostly by mormons). I like to go and just read what they have to say and how good they are about excusing the leadership. Check it out at http://www.fairboards.org/index.php They want you to sign up. I did but don't do any talking there yet. Would rather observe. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 223 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Viv , that site is a hoot as well, Lots of testimoney bearing, and not answering questions as well. They have Good Ice skates in Utah. Hope you know what i mean. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 594 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.49.109 |
Thought you might enjoy it. I just got a phone call from Mom. She had laser eye surgery yesterday. We have been praying about it. She is diabetic so she was very worried. She lives alone and blindness would mean her loss of independance. She is 86. It went so well she sees better than she has in 20 years, without her glasses. God is so good to us! | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Intermediate Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.155.99.145 |
Okay, who decided that this was a good idea??? Didn't the First Presidency just get done trouncing on Mormon's illicit use of the internet to promote their opinions about the "Church"? I was actually happy they were demanding the deconstruction of some of the sites out there. ...Nonetheless, this is some funny stuff... I spent part of today perusing cultbusters--and saw that you are a fairly regular participant, Vivian. Looks like a really good site. A few years back the Church of Scientology took over the world's largest cult awareness network--and then started notifying cult members and their leaders when family and friends called in for help. I was half afraid when I first saw the address that this might be an arm of the same, but it looks like an excellent open message board. Steelsword: my email addresses are pointlessshrew@yahoo.com and marymagdalene@catholicexchange.com . I'd love a looksee at what you've got. Where in the world do you stake your claim? I may ask for photocopies... In His Grace, miki | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 595 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.71 |
I read an article stating Scientologists were volunteering to man the phones at said cult awareness network. That would cause the same result you talked about. People need to have the courage of their convictions and speak out. There is a world after cults. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 596 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.71 |
Wouldn't it be wonderful if Christians would start an 'underground sanctuary' for those who want to leave cults but are afraid of reprisal (from family, employers, neighbors)? Such as they had after WW11. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 226 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
pointlessshrew, I'm a North Carolinian. Will e-mail you when i get the Chance. I have manage to make notes on them , so they aren't in great shape. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Intermediate Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 122 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.147.4.106 |
That's what CAN was originally geared towards, Vivian. The people who ran it, I'm certain, did not know that it was the Church of Scientology that was buying them out. But since it was the Church of Scientology that sued them into oblivion, one might have gotten the idea that something was awry... I like the whole House of Hospitality premise that is done in Gheel, Belgium with the mentally ill out of St Elisabeth's Hospital. Families offer safe sanctuary and a family environment to one or two patients for as long as is needed--sometimes unto death. People who have been ravaged by the cult experiences are often just as vunerable and fragile as the mentally ill in crisis. They need a safe and supportive place to get it all out of their systems and regroup. I wish I had had a safe place to spin out of control when I left Mormonism. But, no I had school and work and an apartment to keep up and noone to take up the slack. It took years to heal--I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. In His Grace, miki | ||
| uncledrunkie (uncledrunkie) New member Username: uncledrunkie Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 131.230.185.25 |
OK, everyone just start throwing food at one another because that is what this thread has wittled down to. Why can't we all just let Mormans be Morman and protestants be protastants, and nither the twain shall fling poop? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 259 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Uncle Jude 3  Jude 3 Jude 3 Jude 3 | ||
| dondi (dondi) Junior Member Username: dondi Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.233.221.29 |
Piontless nice to meet ya you wrote something I'm not sure what it means you wrote "The hardest one for me is "fine matter"." What is that excactly? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 674 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.19 |
dondi, what I think Pointless was saying is as a mormon she was taught that spirit is matter, that spirit has substance. A fine matter. This is their way of explaining away their doctrine that God and Christ have flesh and bones. Flesh and bones as finer matter (spirit). It's something I had never heard before but sure sounds like another case of mormonism trying to cover their butts. They have their own curious way of changing not only scripture, but also physiology, geography, and aerodynamics. | ||
| yourmaster (yourmaster) New member Username: yourmaster Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.20.127.133 |
none of the churches are true. they are all teaching symbols and no one can teach fact. thaty is for you to see for yourself. leave churches in the ditch where they belong. the light is not there. at least that is what jesus said along with others and me. | ||
| angel_from_the_sun (angel_from_the_sun) New member Username: angel_from_the_sun Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 4.255.78.212 |
Your topic: How can one know which Church is true The true Church of Christ is within you. Are you a child of the King of Kings?. If so, you shall love Him, follow Him and His teachings and live your life in and through Him forsaking all else. He must reign within you, the Kingdom of God, shining forth His Light and Love. While on earth, you are His eyes, hands, and the body He can dwell in. The true Church of Christ are not external Temples, Churches, structures of any kind, but is the living Church of Christ within you. Be connected with all believers to strengthen and build up together the mighty and glorious Church of Christ. My brothers and sisters can be found within earthly Churches and outside of them. All believers are connected together as one, being one with Christ together being one with Father God. This is the true living Church of Christ. God is Love Angel from the sun | ||
| angel_from_the_sun (angel_from_the_sun) New member Username: angel_from_the_sun Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 4.242.69.171 |
To support my previous post, here are the words of Jesus Christ re earthly Temples, ornate building of Churches,and other earthly structures of worship so valued by some of humanity. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Mark 13, 2 So let us together be one in Christ, one mind in Christ, building His glorious Church within, a Church that will never fall nor crumble. Praises to God. | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Right on Angel!!, there is only one true church and that is the "Body of Christ" They won't understand that because of there up bringing and have not ventured out of the Mormon Box. all you can do is pray for them. | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Thats right kido, there is only one church and that is the "Body of Christ" because of there up bringing and not stepping out of the mormon box, they can't understand this, its just not there langauge or mind set, Unfortunately its called brain washing, one of the trates of a cult. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 507 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: what is this "Mormon Box" you imagine? Please, in your expert opinion as a psycologist that has studied brainwashing and it's effects, whether relating to cults or not - what are the steps undertaken within the LDS Church used to undertake this "brainwashing"?, how long does it take? what are the tell tale signs of a truly "brainwashed" Mormon? - or are you just running off at the mouth using emotive terms you do not understnad simply so that you can hide behind them and your own ignorance? Your detailed response would be interesting reading. Robert | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Hey Robert (Joesdad) Man up cowboy, you can get this info: anywhere, Obviously your having problems getting Info: on the "traits of a cult", (that says something right there) I copyed and pasted, from my own study's I don't have time to type this all out but maybe something will click in your brain.......read on "TRAITS OF CULTS FOR YOU RICHARD" • They practice separatism and devote much of their time trying to proselyte others. • Their efforts to convert others are underhanded and manipulative. • The group’s leaders claim to be God’s prophets or messiahs or apostles who receive “divine revelations.†• They teach that all other churches and groups are lost unless they surrender what they have and join them. • Their leaders are dictatorial and demanding, either directly or subtly. • They claim to have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. • Members are expected to attend study sessions where they are firmly indoctrinated (“brainwashedâ€) with the group’s mundane creeds and human theories. • They resent having their doctrines and creeds questioned. • They believe salvation and afterlife are found only in their camp. • Those who desert the group are judged evil and apostates. • They dictate almost every facet of the members’ lives—sexual, social, domestic, political, and spiritual. • They deny that God has other children scattered over the hills and valleys of sectarianism. • They believe God’s elect are found only within the borders of their own enclosure. • Honest dissidents are disciplined, avoided, and excommunicated. • They insist on strict conformity to the group’s doctrinal standards. • Their teachings contradict plain truth. • Their source of authority is of human origin. • They require a new convert to be rebaptized, even though he was sincerely baptized previously. • They have devised their own translation of the scriptures and prohibit any translation not approved by them. • Members are expected to give large amounts of money and ample energy and time to the group’s activities. • They allege to be the only legitimate interpreters of scripture. • They wrest scripture to foster their belief system. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 527 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: Come on, you are attempting to muddy the waters and avoid responding to my questions directly. Be honest and admit what you actually do know about me and my beliefs. I ask for evidence of your claim regarding brainwashing, and you reply with an ill though out list of non-specific claims regarding cults, and you claim LDS side step issues!!! Lots of points on your list can't even be twisted to pretend they apply to LDS practice - as if you know what that is. | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Hows this Joesdad the cupcake: (just trying to communicate at your level here) what do you call it or what word would you use when your church tells you when a prophet or bishop or apostle or what ever has spoken, it has been said and final,and you can't think for your self or question his statement once they have spoken........what do you call that cupcake???: thats just one method do I really have to go on with a big list of the method your church uses???? The traits of a cult doesn't really sink through, does it???? | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
IM sorry about the list: "traits of a cult" Joesbag, of donuts..........But correct me if IM wrong, but I thought that cultism and brainwashing go hand in hand ?????????????? No????????? take good care there fruitcake............lol let me know if you have some real questions other wise stop responding with your smack talk your wasting my time Joeybagofdonuts...sorry joesdad. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 529 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: I think you are getting a little caught up in pretending what you know - I have no questions of you as you prove you have no answers - you promise discussion but produce no more than childish quips. Wasting your time? - you are free to leave at any time. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 530 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Actually, why not try answering the question regarding your imaginary "Mormon box" - and give a constructive response to my queries regarding supposed "brainwashing" | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 531 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
One more thing you ask "what do you call it or what word would you use when your church tells you when a prophet or bishop or apostle or what ever has spoken, it has been said and final,and you can't think for your self or question his statement once they have spoken" - I call that an over active imagination! You just show your ignorance of us, who has been feeding you this rubbish?, why do you believe them? | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
OK Joesdad:, forget about the Box and brainwashing, Now that I have your attention, the question I'd like to ask you if I may is, do you believe that the BOM is the companion to the bible????????????? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 533 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: No I will not. You come here making accusations, and then, because you realise they are not unfounded but based on falsehoods fed to you by others, you expect to be able to "get away" with it!! Also forget about pretending that the points were raised to get my attention. You have proven clearly that you know nothing at all about what I believe, except for lies told to confuse you. I either expect you to admit that you cannot justify accusing the church of brainwashing it's members (remembering that the members ARE the church) or prove that it does with facts. That being the case, I will answer the first sensible enquiry you have made since appearing here. Yes we do believe that the Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible. You would of course have known this had you any idea of what I believe. It is made clear in one of our Articles of Faith - a serious question for you, did you know that many of our beliefs are set out in 13 simple Articles of Faith? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
13 simple articles of Faith? I don't think # 8 will ever be simple,due to mis-translation by your Lds leadership. What i mean by that Robert is yes you personally have the right to interpret as you see fit , but i don't think the church called you to see if you interpreted CORRECTLY. The leadership does the interpretation for you. The Christrians stand on the BIBLE as the infalliable WORD of GOD. NO Mormon can make this STAND! Because translated Correctly can and often does change from prophet to prophet , leadership to leadership in the LDS Church. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 220 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Some new archaelogical evidence. Christian/Hebrew of course http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9950210/ | ||
| dean (dean) Junior Member Username: dean Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.138 |
joesdad;..easy cowboy...........we all fall short of the Cross......even you young chap, lets stick with number 8. of your Article of faith if its in this order, Now you need to examine this carefully Martin, Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt said about it which is: "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327. "If it be admitted that the apostles and evangelists did write the books of the New Testament, that does not prove of itself that they were divinely inspired at the time they wrote.... Add all this imperfection to the uncertainty of the translation, and who, in his right mind could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?" Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p. 47. Hey chip, how can your church claim that the BOM is a companion to the Bible when they believe the Bible is corrupt. Isn't that also then saying that the BOM is also corrupt??? | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
nulla that link is facinating. the mosaic is amazing. really historically interesting love becca | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 536 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steel: You say "The leadership does the interpretation for you" referring to me, yet can you honestly say that your"Christian" view is not just simply accepting the status qou created just a few hundred years ago by who? - wow, the leaders of the Catholic Church. So why do you find it OK to follow them unquestioning like a sheep, and then accuse me whilst claiming I do the same. Is that not just Hypocrisy? Dean: You seem to be confusing the issue. They are companions, this does not mean they are automatically equivalent to each other. As many anti-LDS writers will puposely take quotes of leaders out of context to make a point that cannot be validly made without such corruption being made - the quote is not necessarily what the writer intended to say at all. In reality, when one book of scripture has been so alduterated by corrupt men as the Bible has (and blatantly has some of it missing), I feel that God would ensure that His word is strenghthened by the use of another comaprable record. BTW the quotes say the people doing the changing were corrupt, not hat the Bible is corrupt. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
I find it interesting that long time Mormon apologist and radio host VAN HALE seems to think the Book of Mormon is inspired Fiction. Joesdad do you think he should be excommunicated for this belief ? Others have. He believes God handed Joseph a work of fiction , & it has servered its purpose . Hale said on Feb. 6th 2005 " that he could not except the Book of Mormon is real people about real history". Also on Sept. 18th 2005 VAN HALE: "I'm not persuaded that the Book of Mormon is a translation of ancient history". This man has been with the church all his Life, & an apologist for a good part of his adult life, & yet he denies Joseph & all other prophets & FARMS to BOOT. Why has the church spent so much MONEY (Roberts Tithing going for good use ) on archaeology if the Book is Fiction. Read and listen at the Following: http://www.i4m.com/think/van_hale.htm Joe, no I don't just except the status qou , because i question leadership & i don't have the threat of excommunication or some church court hanging over my head if I do. Lets Just see where the Van Hale Issue Goes. We already saw what the Church Tried to do to Simon Southerton for the DNA issues. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 956 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.43.236 |
And Michael Quinn, a BYU professor, along with about three others with him. | ||
| dean (dean) Junior Member Username: dean Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Joesdad: Really...........IM never gonna score!!!!!, You lost me on how you could possible take what your leaders say out of context, it’s pretty clear. Or....OR just maybe, like everybody at "farms" your answers are like water, it takes the path of less restistant...straight down the river.....lol IM bad.......I take that back Joesdad..I Apologize..but seriously How do you know what your saying is true???? any foundation to this theory???? any facts or proof??? Just to prove the opposite, are you aware of what Biblical Scholars have shown with out a doubt, how accurate the Bible is just through the “Dead Sea Scolls” alone, (not including other resources) and that Archeologist are proving the truth and accuracy of the bible it self (old and new test) almost on a daily bases?????????? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 538 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steel: Come on! - digging up a couple of "controversial" views from among millions that disagree with them. Just proves that LDS can, and do think for themselves, and are quite capable of expressing those views (whether right or wrong). Dean:"IM never gonna score!!!!!" - ever thought of washing?  No, anti-LDS take them out of context to attempt to prove a false point - lying in short. Are you able to explain away the references made in the OT to other books, in a context that makes it clear they ought to be referred to, yet they are missing from the Bible you see as complete? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joe : come on - I have heared many debates involving Van Hale over the years, even when he and Walter Martin debated in the late 60's. Hale was always held in High esteem by the Church, as was Roberts, Quinn, etc. I Think Martin would get a Chuckle if he new what HALE said about the BOM. Remember No matter what you say, Hale is a voice for Mormonism , due to his Radio show in Utah , and the Audience he reaches. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 543 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steel: Certainly, and therefore he knows he should not be keeping one eye on the Lord, and the other on his audience! We'll see what comes of it all. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 962 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.47.70 |
steel, your link provides an interesting view to mormon thought. I saw his main point as 'forget about proving the bom is historically accurate, (because they can't prove it is), and just appreciate 'the moral of the story'. His views of 'the mormon religion is a work in progress', then going on to give examples of the changing beliefs of mormon prophets about who God is (first) God as a spirit, (second) God having flesh and bone, and mormons accepting this changing god, is indeed blasphemous. His belief, as an example of a mormon who believes js was divinely endowed and the book he wrote being 'of God', shows just how 'brainwashed' an ordinary or highly intelligent man can become. He mentioned the 'astounding growth' of the mormon church, stating they have distributed 78 million copies of the bom around the world, ignores the fact that mormonism has less than 13 million members, and commonsence tells us most mormons have lots of children, so a large percentage of those members are innocent children. (Why do mormons consider that such great odds?) Doesn't that sound like brainwashing to you? (I realize the brainwashed won't agree). That's the point, isn't it! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 545 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: He He He - love it, use twisted logic to exclude - I've never seen you attempt that one before have I? - Oh, yes, I have. Nuts, thought you were doing something innovative. Brainwashed, nice 'n clean, but they are all so whitewashed in the cranium they can't see why they should all agree with Mr Hale and make your job easier. Darn it, that would be too easy, now you may have to do some more digging - but wash your hands before supper! | ||
| dean (dean) Junior Member Username: dean Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Joesdad: I wash a couple a times a month......am I doing something wrong??????.....lol So basically no answer.......How many times do we have to here ANTI MORMON....as the weak foundation comes from the beginning till now of your own Mormon leaders, Docs, Bio's, diarys.Bom....etc OH well... I have to give you credit, to say that at least your making an attempt to credit your church and confronting it... it doesn't make you all bad! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 562 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: Have you found the books I mean yet? - I know, that means getting the Bible out and having a look but maybe this wipper snapper of a Mormon may show you something you never knew before. | ||
| fatherofaking (fatherofaking) Advanced Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 548 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.237.131.3 |
at the age of 14 joseph smith claims to have seen and been spoken to by god and jesus christ. he was told that the entire world was wrong in what they believed, and never questioned the source of the information. does that sound like a sound decision? if you had an experience like that would you not ever ask yourself whether it could be wrong? was he not aware of the verse in the bible, that says that satan disguises himself as an angel of light? if he did question this experience, he apparently didn't tell anyone. why? is it possible that the question of whether it was truely a vision of god and jesus never occured to him? i would find it unlikely. wouldn't you ask everyone that you knew whether this could be true? the people that believed the claims of joseph smith did so because he seemed to be a man of integrity. is it honest to not question such an extrordinary experience and such an extrordinary claim that the entire world is wrong and he alone is right? | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 802 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
joseph smith was a boy who changed his story to suit his needs when ever he could the mormon church has changed the book of mormon many times . THE TRUE WORD OF GOD never changes and never has and never will. we do not need these extra books to tell us anything. | ||
| planetkram (planetkram) New member Username: planetkram Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.205.46.16 |
pray | ||
| solafide (solafide) New member Username: solafide Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.176.102.154 |
The true church of Jesus Christ and his teaching was handed down from his Apostles 2000 years ago.Today that church still standing.Why will I listen to other churches that claim with many different intepretation.Over 50% of protestant have a broken marriage but yet teaches how important the marriage to God.Divorce, Abortion,Human Rights & Human equality are some of a few issues many who have claimed christians that do not uphold the value of our Lord Jesus teaching.Many christians today know the bible very well but mostly stuck up in their brain but not in their heart.Our Lord Jesus expect us to live the life according to his teaching.The enemy are united in one single objective; is to divide us all christians.So go ahead strike on your brethren because of your petty docrinal differences.At the end, the Lord will come to judge us all according to how we live our life. Our loving God loves us all, can I do less.Christianity is not a peace of labels you stick on your bumper car.It is a way of life the day we accept Jesus in our life. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 2748 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.42.176 |
Did you really say 'petty docrinal differences'? So if someone tells you he is a prophet and God told him not to believe His (God's Word), that there is really another book that you should use as your gospel, that you can become a god, that you will have multiple wives in heaven, that God had sex with Mary, and every other church that says they follow Jesus Christ are liars; you consider petty docrinal differences? That is absolutely amazing. | ||
| solafide (solafide) New member Username: solafide Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.176.102.154 |
I'm addressing only the true christians to unite against the enemy not among ourselves.If you believe in the Holy Trinity and the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ that was handed down from his apostles 2000 years ago & today.Then you are christian.This excluding the Mormons/LDS, Jehova's witnesses and others that falsely claiming christian today.I used to debate with the Mormons/LDS,Jehova's Witnesses & other churches claimed "Church of Jesus Christ" but clearly the the teaching as an anti-christ.Today this group of people claiming also Christians just to lure people into their church & giving them first class membership.In the Holy Bible the apostles warned us about this people & also an opportunity to challenge their teaching & their ways. See John 4:1-3 & Jude 1:17-21. The hour is nearly come many anti-christ are beginning to sound like christians.Be faithful to our Lord. May his grace and mercy protect us for the false prophet. | ||
| solafide (solafide) New member Username: solafide Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.176.102.154 |
We must show love to this people that was decieved by false teaching.Remember love is not just a word but it is an action.When the Lord come, everyone will know the Lord.The judgement is in his hand.Many christians & non-christians alike will be judge according to the book.Love is the greatest of all.Our heavenly father want all his children in his kingdome.Jesus said no one is good, only God is good.If you do not see & feel how loving & compassionate our heavenly father to his children, then you are as blind on the truth about Jesus Christ.He didn't died for those who claimed righteousness but to those who seeking & thirst for his love & mercy. | ||
| solafide (solafide) New member Username: solafide Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.176.102.154 |
Thomas.. Open your heart not your mind. Can you not feel around you how loving & compassionate our heavenly father? You may have a point.Still does not make you righteous. | ||
| crusader New member Username: crusader Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 164.64.226.19 |
One can know that their Church is Christian (true) if it is teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and if its doctrinal positions on the Trinity, the Diety of Christ, etc., are in accord with the ancient creeds of the Church and the Nicene Council. Now, Mormons believe all creeds are an abomination - and of course Satan hates any "creed" which proudly proclaims that Christ is God, indeed. So, this should give us a hint of who started the whole Mormon ball rolling. | ||
| x11 Member Username: x11 Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.29 |
Its really weird to come back and read through these treads. I see that JD and all the mormon/cult posters still have not made any ligit points. | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 3059 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.151 |
I hope it is because they are studying the true history of their church. | ||
| pointlessshrew Intermediate Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 208.157.171.92 |
Hehehe...Oh, man. I haven't had time to come back and read the progression of these threads in a long while, but , my, oh, my! I agree, Vivian--if JD or any of his cohorts start plowing through Mormon history outside the scope of what's acceptable, look out!!! Absolutely amazing... In His Grace, miki | ||
| notmyhome New member Username: notmyhome Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 131.52.121.101 |
}According to the book of Mormon there was a large scale war at present day New York hundreds of years ago. Thousands of people were suppose to have died there. Why is it that not one scientist nation wide can find a shred of evidence that it had taken place. We can find dinosaur bones but no Mormon paraphernalia. (Message edited by notmyhome on December 21, 2006) | ||
| catholic_man Member Username: catholic_man Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 72.161.114.50 |
It would be helpful to read what the early church fathers wrote, those who were directly taught by the apostles who were directly taught by Jesus. Some such as Clement (mentioned by St. Paul in the bible) Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, etc. could help shed light on what the apostles taught. I have a hard time believing much of Joseph Smith's claims. I understood him to be a lazy son-in-law who nearly got rapped in the mouth and sued for leading a big group of people to dig for treasure that he claimed God showed him existed. They dug and dug and nothing. Personally I would rather believe the first few hundred years of Christian history rather than the last few hundred years. | ||
| catholic_man Member Username: catholic_man Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 72.161.114.50 |
Galatians, Chapter 1 6: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. | ||
| obadiah Member Username: obadiah Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 70.169.190.223 |
Hey catholic_man good to see you over here. Long before I became Orthodox, I too joined the L.D.S.'church'. I went to S.L.C. and discovered Mormonism. I read the B.O.M. and was convinced that it was true. This is because Protestantism leaves open the possibility of modern revelation, especially since I went to mainly Pentecostial churches, which believes that any body can receive insiration from the Lord. In June of 1976 when I was in Denver Colo. I took Missionary descussions and after about six weeks of indoctrination, I was Baptized into the Mormon faith. For about six or seven years I was a 'true believer'. About 1982 or 83 I gave up the whole thing because of all the different 'brands' of Mormonism. I started to go to the only Church I knew at that time which was linked to the original Church the Roman Catholic Church. I attended daily Mass, learned to say the Holy Rosary and a lot of other prayers. About 1985, I was walking past St.Spyrydins Greek Orthodox Church went inside and fell in love with the Divine Liturgy. After a year of Chatacisism I became Orthodox, and have been ever since. I know a lot about Mormonism so I can answer just about any questions any one might have. I'll read this whole thread to get up to date. Christ is Born! Glorify Him. | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4177 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.252.32 |
obadiah, I notice you post on the am/sc threads. Do you see the similarities between sc and mormonism? | ||
| godchild Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 4178 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.215.252.32 |
I recently found this. It explains very well the mormon view that FEELINGS are what we should depend on to know which church is true. I don't agree; emotions cause us to think/act contrary to what may be beneficial: LESSON #6, "I Will Tell You in Your Mind and in Your Heart, by the Holy Ghost" Reading assignment: Doctrine and Covenants D&C 6; D&C 8; D&C 9; D&C 11. Have you ever had a prayer answered? How do you know? Did your phone ring, and a voice on the other end of the line spoke to you? Did someone knock on your door to visit with you? Unfortunately for you and me, no one calls or visits to give us the answer to our prayers. We don't receive a letter in the mail giving us the answer. Sometimes we find it difficult to recognize the promptings of the Holy Spirit. In the hustle and bustle of life today, we often don't hear the Spirit whispering to us. Many years ago I would pray and pray that I would somehow know that I was doing what was pleasing to the Lord. I would ask that He would let me know somehow that I was doing the right thing. I didn't receive any miraculous manifestation. Instead, the answer I got was a sweet feeling of peace. It took me a very long time to recognize that feeling of peace as the answer to my prayers. For most members of the Church, including our leaders and General Authorities, miraculous manifestations do not happen. Revelation comes by the small voice or by a feeling rather than by a vision or a voice that speaks specific words we can hear. Scripture Chain: Recognizing the Still, Small Voice D&C 8:2-3 D&C 9:8-9 D&C 42:61 D&C 128:1 D&C 136:32-33 ------------------end According to this, there is really no need for their prophets. | ||
| steelsword New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Part 2 Mormon America on PBS tonight (9pm ) east coast. |
