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meye_view (meye_view)
New member
Username: meye_view
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.65.96.145
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 8:25 pm: | 
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***The following are some excerpts from one of H.H.’s books, “How Do You Know?”, that will help reveal two of their fundamental doctrines. First they believe that Christians need to join in covenant with a tangible expression of the Body of Christ likened to the marriage covenant between a man and a women. Second, they believe the leadership is the tangible and manifest authority of God set over their members just as Jesus was the tangible and manifest authority of God when He was on earth.
I have tried to be fair by giving large enough portions of the book to be within context, which explains, or at least is my defense of, the lengthiness of this post. Whenever a full paragraph is not posted I have inserted periods.... to show that it is only a portion of it. All of my comments will be preceded and ended with *** .
Following are the first and last paragraphs of the introduction of the book from pages 1 and 4.
Before believers talk about salvation itself, it seems important to first know how they are to know that they can know what God’s salvation is—that is, it seems important to know that they have a meaningful basis upon which they can understand one another and potentially, at least, reach agreement. If we answer, “Only by the Word of God,” then whose interpretation of that Word do we believe and how do we know which is correct? When questions or conflicts arise between members about their relationship to God or each other, then “how do you know” whose answer is to prevail? This “knowing how we know” is not as far removed from salvation as some may imagine, since Jesus said that salvation is “know[ing] the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.” So we will begin with this most difficult of all questions, the one that all face who come to God or to a new fellowship, “How do you know?”
In the following pages we propose our community’s view of how one “knows” about such things. We pray you would have faith to persevere in meaningfully reading these pages, believing that in the end they will reveal matters essential and critical to your own relationship to God and to His people. If read with such faith, these pages will go far in determining your present level of relationship with us as a fellowship. The first section contrasting reason to revelation, might prove more difficult than succeeding sections, requiring you to indeed persevere in exercising this faith. Yet it is a necessary section, for we are not only laying a foundation, but, as with any responsible builder, demolition and excavation to bedrock must precede the laying of the foundation and the erecting of the edifice. We invite you, if there is anything written here that you don’t understand, to please ask us specific questions so that complete clarity can come to you about our community’s position.
From Page 71
.... ''Consequently, you're no longer foreigners and aliens but fellow citizens with God's people, members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the Chief cornerstone” (Eph. 2:19- 20). To be built up as part of God's household means being plumbed to the cornerstone, being in line with the life of Jesus Christ; and this will occur when we line ourselves up with the authorities in His Body, apostles and prophets (1Cor. 12:28), who are lined up to the cornerstone.
***Here the focus is subtly turned to “the authorities” and away from Jesus, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.***
From page 72
....(Matt. 7:28-29). His word confronted those who believed that He was the Messiah, the One who incarnated God's authority and brought it to bear directly in human flesh on earth; people could no longer merely bend the Word incarnate to match their own conceptions: the Word stood tangibly before them in flesh and blood. Jesus became the Rock to all who would hear, for in His very life He provided the tangible, consistent expression of what God's Word truly meant. People had to either obey or betray that Word, for the tangibleness of its direct authority now commanded a response. As seen, to those who believed "this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone' and 'A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.''' When the ''builders'' rejected the reality of God manifesting himself in human flesh, they ''rejected'' the ''stone,'' the tangible authority that would have produced obedience in them. They rejected that tangible definition the Word receives in human lives so that they could keep that Word abstract and therefore subject it to their own interpretation and understanding, thus maintaining their own godhood.
***Here the implication, that will be seen more clearly as we go on, is that we need a tangible authority to produce obedience in us. Again adverting our focus away from Jesus and the Holy Spirit that resides within us as Christians. ***
From pages 74
Yet here we find another paradox: the deception of our hearts acts to prevent us from finding our place in the Body; we must ultimately be in the Body to help overcome self-deception, but self-deception keeps us from joining the Body. To resolve and overcome the paradox, we must identify the nature of the deception that blinds us and thus prevents us from entering into the full knowledge of God's will. The deception that closes our ears to God's voice is the same deception that closed Adam's ears; the desire to be ''as God'' rather than a limited creature of God. Even those who claim to follow God often in their carnality want to direct their own lives rather than allow God's Spirit to direct them (Gal. 5:17). So our resistance to God will always focus on resistance to His authority, and the most tangible place where this authority extends itself is through other men, that is, in the context of God's spiritually anointed Body.
***Included here is the false premise that we have to “join” God’s Body. As Christians we do not join the Body of Christ, we are birthed into it when we are born again by the Spirit of God. And again the focus is on our need for a “tangible authority.”***
From page 75
.....the Scriptures leave no ambiguity about our need for particular ministries in the Body that serve for perfecting us so that we can fulfill our own ministry of service (Eph. 4:11). Obviously, to perfect us, these ministries must exercise authority in our lives if only to the extent of performing the often painful duty of pointing out imbalances that might endanger the Body or our own spiritual life (Heb. 13:17; 2 Cor. 13:10; 1 Thess. 4:2; Tit. 22:15).
For all these reasons, our Adamic nature will seek to protect itself by rejecting the cords of love through which God would bind us to those people through whom His authority often comes (Psa. 2:1-3). If we would take over the rule of our own lives, we necessarily cut ourselves off from God's Word when He would speak a Word that would bring us under the restraint that finding our place in the Body must entail.
For instance, when you find your true place, you cannot then stand in just any or every other place. Since God through His own authority leads us in the way that our flesh would not go (John 21:18; Gal. 5:17), and since the spiritual authority that God exercises through His Body manifests His sovereignty over us, our assertion of our own sovereignty causes us to resist that authority. Because we do not want to receive that authority and, with it, the restraint that our place in the Body brings, we often have particular difficulty in hearing God's Word when He would lead us to that place. The most powerful self-deception flows from that rebellion against God's authority that creates self-centered independence in our spirits.
***The emphasis here is on our shortcomings and the need for “spiritual authority” to point them out and keep us in our place, unlike the apostles epistles which emphasize the Christ within us that now gives us each the ability to overcome the carnal nature.***
From page 76
So the clearest fruit of a genuine effort to give up all our vested interests and to pour ourselves out in service to God comes forth in our submission to authority. The true test of the completeness of our submission to the will of the God whom we have not seen lies in our submission to the brothers we have seen (1 John 4:20). Nor can this submission be merely a passive, begrudging, resentful or evasive acquiescence. It must constitute active, voluntary, enthusiastic outpouring of ourselves.
Carnal man's rebellion will always focus itself on that point where freedom will suffer unequivocal limitations. Carnal man does not want to die to his own will. The point at which these limitations strike us with penetrating clarity lies in our relationship with those flesh and blood people to whom God would have us submit. The burden is easy and the yoke is light, but the flesh is weak-it will not bear even a light yoke. So it chafes against it and makes it heavy. Jesus' yoke was the torture rack upon which He was impaled. To Him, this was ''easy'' and "light" but would it be to us? Would we not consider it a monstrous burden in our march toward "prosperity"? Only the death of the carnal nature and the grace of the Spirit can enable us to overcome the stiff resistance that causes service to the Body and submission to its authority to seem burdensome to a profligate and undisciplined people. Yet if we know what to expect from the deceptive carnal man, we can pinpoint his devious ways and overcome him. Because through God's grace we can see exactly how the deceitfulness of sin manifests itself in our lives, we'll see that we can overcome this deception, if we are willing to submit to God's authority.
Of course, our highest covenant commitment remains to the Head. If the Head truly informs us that the part of the Body to which we've been joined no longer stands under His Headship, then our first loyalty is not to a man or men but to the Head. We must remember that God never leaves us to remain decapitated from His Headship, from His incarnated authority, and we will remain so unless we are part of the Body connected to the Head, since each member can be connected to the Head only through the Body of which the member forms a part. So if God removes us from one expression of the Body which has become severed from His Headship, He will always graft us into another that stands under His Headship. Such a move should, however, be made in the utmost fear of God and with absolute assurance that we move in perfect accord and consistency with God's Spirit and God's Word and not out of a sense of independence, bitterness, resentment or rebellion; for God will judge us severely for every covenant vow and commitment that we have made in His Presence and unjustly broken (Deut. 23:21-23; Num. 30:1-2; Eccles. 5:1-7; 1 Cor. 11:29-30; Heb. 2:2-3; 10:28-31). The cost of being mistaken is nothing less than our eternal souls, for the Bible makes our love of our brothers the test as to whether we have passed from death to life (1 John 3: 14).
From pages 78 & 79
Confessing Jesus as Come in Flesh
....God has ordered concrete relationships within the Body. These relationships plumb the disciple's relationship to the Chief Cornerstone and expose whether he seeks to conform to love's image or to merely conform love to his own image. So John says, '' Whoever knows God by experience listens to us but whoever does not belong to God does not listen to us" (1John4:6, NIV, TEV, Wms). He told the church that the spirit of antichrist, the spirit that works in those who choose to disobey God (Eph.2:2), would be revealed in the act of covenant breaking :
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going [revealed] that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:18-19)
From pages 81 & 82
....so John gives the church the test to protect each flock from the hostile and murderous spirit of antichrist, warning us not to trust or ''believe'' those who have a spirit that cannot fully and certainly accept the anointing in ''us,'' who cannot accept the same authority that Jesus possessed as it '' continues to come in our human nature." If they cannot receive the Word that the ministry preaches as indeed it is, the Word of God (1 Thess. 2:13), if they cannot accept as constitutional (apart from their own decision in each situation) that the ministry beseeches them "in Christ's stead'' (2Cor. 5:20, KJV), if they cannot fully and certainly confess that Jesus' anointing continues to come in the flesh, in ''our human nature," in the local expression of the corporate Body of Jesus to which God would join them, but rather they refuse to "listen to us," then they are not to be received into fellowship in the Body.
..... Jesus then said In His ''good confession," ''Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." This is the same as John's test: ''We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us'' (1 John 4:6). Someone who refuses to submit to God's definition of truth expressed in the authority of tangible human flesh simply desires to manipulate the truth to correspond to his own desires. He resists any truth that would represent a given beyond his own mind, and so he denies any tangible authority that would testify to the absoluteness of truth. Such a person cannot hear God's voice in human flesh, for he desires to leave truth in the abstract, relativist realm of his own mind....
From page 83
Paul underscores this necessity to discern God's authority in human flesh when he says that ''faith comes by hearing'' but ''hearing'' must be ''by the Word of God," and how can they ''hear without a preacher?'' (Rom. 10:14, 17, NKJV). Believers must receive the Word ''as it really is," the Word of God spoken through human flesh ''sent from God." To hear the Word as the word of mere men profits the hearer nothing. They must discern the Body of Christ (1 Cor.11:29) as speaking the anointed Word to them. Yet Paul says, ''but they [who have heard] had not all obeyed the gospel (Rom. 10:16, KJV).
***I would point out that the context of Rom.10 is that of believers bringing the gospel to non-believers. Not that as believers we are not to receive the Word of God through others, but we are not to give up our direct connection with our heavenly Father in an unquestioning submission to others who claim to be “the tangible authority of God.”1John2: 26These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.***
From page 84
All will be tested by the increasing light of God’s restored covenant. And the supream questions in this test are: “will it be revealed that we truly belong to Jesus? Are we willing to have Him define all our covenants and have His desires become ours? Can we submit to God’s authority in human flesh, or will it become a rock of offence to us? When the Son of man returns will He find faith in our hearts (Luke 18:8)?” So this authority, as Jesus said (John 17:2-3), becomes then critical in our ability to know God.
***Those in H.H. are being tested by a covenant, but it is not a restored covenant of God’s, but a covenant created by men. It will not reveal whether they belong to Jesus or not, but whether they have given the Headship of Christ in their lives to these men. And whether they will let these men define all their covenants and receive these men’s desires as their own.***
From page 85
....Jesus said, "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'' (John 17:3). So the order of authority given by Jesus to the church to make disciples, teaching them to obey, brings eternal life, saves us.
The purpose of God's authority is, then to bring us into a relationship in which we truly come to know Him, a knowledge that brings life and salvation, This knowledge, as repeatedly shown, is a relational knowledge, a knowledge that brings us into relationship with God, not the fragmented, objectified death knowledge from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God has restored to the church the authority that brings all things in Christ together in proper relationship so that the Body can rise up from the valley of decomposed and dry bones until the Body can hold and carry God's life.
From page 86
It is therefore precisely because Jesus was God's authority constituted in human flesh that He was the gate to eternal life. In turn, He has, as said, commissioned His church with this same authority by the indwelling of His Spirit and identification with His Name, constituting His people as sons of God. By tangibly expressing God's fathering authority, the Body of Christ opens the gate to relationships of sonship to God's fatherhood. This relational authority is the key to the knowledge of eternal life, the key to knowing the true God and the vessel sent by His Spirit as His incarnation, Jesus Christ. It is an authority that truly derives its name from a relationship of active submission to the Father.
From page 87
The ''key to knowledge," which is the key to the kingdom of life. is not just authority but relational authority of sonship to fatherhood (as we've seen Jesus show in John 17:1-4); and these teachers by their own refusal to submit to God's authority cut off all others who had come to depend and rely on them: '' You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering'' (Luke 11:52), They refused to submit to God's authority in Jesus, refused to enter the gates of real authority into real discipling relationships, and prevented others as well. They desired only an abstract God who could never tangibly intrude into their own place of authority (Luke 1 1:43). They hated the God who confronted them in human flesh. After Jesus told them they had taken away the key of knowledge. the Scriptures record that ''the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose Him fiercely" (Luke 11:53).
So only God's authority brings life; for its purpose is to bring ordered relationships. He now, in the fullness of time, restores the revelation of this relational authority so that His people can come into a living relationship with Him through the ordered relationships of His living Body. He is restoring His church the '' keys of the kingdom" (Matt. 16:19; Rev. 3:7), the authority of His kingdom, for He desires His Body to come alive, fitly joined together. So the fivefold ministry once again rises together in restoration to prepare God's people to ''obey His commands."
From pages 94 & 95
A prospective member must trust the Spirit to give him the perfect doctrinal interpretation of God's Word, but he must also remember that because of both his limited function and his carnal nature, that interpretation will not necessarily or even normally originate through the individual himself. Paul said in Romans, ''Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,'' but "how shall they hear without a Preacher and how can they preach unless they are sent?" (Rom. 10:17, 14-15, NKJV). So if the Spirit leads a prospective member into covenant relationship with a Christian fellowship, he must trust that God plans to reveal His truth to him through them....
From pages 96 & 97
Other questions a prospective member must ask himself are: one, ''Does this fellowship have, or is it moving toward, that larger, more comprehensive, living and relational structure of the Body through which God's love and truth can continuously flow and grow?''; two, ''Is this fellowship being led by the spirit'?''; and three, "Is the Spirit leading me to join and submit myself in covenant relationship to this fellowship-to 'marry' them in the Lord (Isa.62:5) so that I can be husbanded by Him through them?" (1Cor. 3:9
KJV).....
From page 99
God has granted fatherly authority, then, to overcome many of these carnal tendencies and so that the members of His Body may experience life together, the eternal life that the Father has granted to those He would bring to the relational authority of sonship (John 17:1-3). Only when people truly gather together in His Name, that is, under His authority, will He be there, His presence actually authoring and accompanying His Word (Matt. 18:20). He desires to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children and the children's back to the fathers; He wants to reunite all under His Fatherhood.
The great revelation of God, then, that now comes through the Body inheres not in piecemeal truth that particular groups may possess but in the nature of the relationships of the Body itself: the primary revelation is of the nature of the authority that can place all the pieces of truth in proper relationship and hold them together in the living whole that is the Body, conformed to the image of His son. This authority is, as we've seen, fatherhood (Isa.22:20-24). Our proper relationship to it is as submitted sons (Mal. 4:6; Eph. 3:14-15; Heb. 1:1, NASV; 12:5-9). We must make our commitment to that order of relationships that God has established to express His fathering authority toward us. Only this authority can place us and whatever relational truth we possess into that order of relationship that will produce life.
From page 102
Here each prospective member of Christ's true Body confronts the first decision that he must make in order to become a part of God's people. Some who read this still have that decision to make, but each must make it before any true covenant community can fully receive or confirm him into full fellowship. Each prospective member must decide: ''Is this the local church through whom God will speak to me not in bits and pieces but in His relational knowledge as a father to a son? Can I honestly say that I do not believe that I can be a son just any place I may choose but that God has chosen a specific family through which alone I can acquire the relational knowledge of Him and that He has told me that this fellowship is that place and family?" Finally, he must ask himself what level of commitment he must make to them if he does answer all these above questions affirmatively. Should it be the same level of commitment to God's ''fatherhood on . . . earth" that the prospective member would want his own children to have to him? Should it be less? Should it be more? And finally, how can that level of commitment be legitimately described by the prospective member so as to make unequivocally clear that he is voluntarily opening himself to this relational authority and that no misunderstanding of the exertion of that authority will arise?
From page 103
Nonetheless, the remnant in Christ that would ''not deny'' His ''Name'' (Rev. 3:8) must keep insisting that every prospective member (or those seeking confirmation) must confront the nature of God's authority in each local expression of His Body, His authority in human flesh, in order to become a part of the Body, a part of His family under His fatherhood. A prospective member must make the same kind of decision as in marriage (and he must also be equally or even more reluctant to break this covenant, 1Cor.11:25 with Heb. 10:29; Rom. 12:5; Eph. 5:31-32)........
From page 105
For this reason, the New Testament, unlike parts of the Old, does not read like a detailed rules and regulations manual but rather as a guide to relationships. It doesn't specifically tell us: for example, not to smoke Lucky Strikes nor not to shoot up heroin (though of course It proscribes such things by implication) or to move to Waco or buy a piece of land or give your brother your new western shirt. Rather it tells us primarily about how to enter into proper relationship to God's authority so that through our submission to that authority His Spirit can lead us into all truth and conform us to the image of His Son. This is the message of the Testament ' to fail to come into proper relationship is to fail to receive the living message God is speaking; it is to fail to know God.
From page 106
God, then, brings us into a relationship of submission to authority in order to bring us to a place of life, a place, a Body, of living relationships under the fatherhood of God.You cannot arrive at truth and its relational meaning apart from the living expression of truth found in relationship to God and His Body. No one therefore can make a more important determination than the one regarding the precise nature of their relationship to the expression of the Body He leads them to. They must, as shown, come as a child to God's fleshly expression of fatherhood. Eternal life is to know the Father, and the only way to know God as Father and therefore find His living expression is to submit as a child to the expressions of His fatherhood in heaven and on earth (Eph. 3:14- 15)………..
***Most of us can attest to the many needs and shortcomings in the Body of Christ simply by examining our own individual lives, but the answer to the needs is not in our acceptance of a revelation of the restoration of a special covenant and submitting to a hierarchical authority within this covenant body. I certainly do not have all the answers, but one of the most important answers is the exposure of the hierarchical authority structures men have set up in the name of God.
Mark 10: 42But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, "You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. 44And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
For anyone interested in an excellent article on what the scriptures teach concerning authority in the church I would highly recommend The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy by George Davis and Michael Clark, here is the web address,
http://www.awildernessvoice.com/GEC.html *** |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.2
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 4:09 am: |
|
Thank you for putting this here; though I did get the creepies just reading again. I know it was a lot of work going through all this gunk. I appreciate your effort and your comments are a blessing because they are true. Thank you also for the scriptures you added. I hope you don't mind if I add some more.
**********
OK for any one who didn't understand it... This is what is expected of you in HH}:
Your relationship with God is totally dependent on your relationship to their authority. You will be saved by knowing God, that is knowing and obeying them.
You will know God's will because they will tell you what it is.
When you join HH you will be expected to do everything the leaders tell you.
You will be expected to accept their will as God's will. If you question this, it is your flesh rising up.
You will be expected to willingly pour yourself out in what they give you to do.
You can not hear God's voice except through them.
You will not be saved unless you come under their authority, (or someone just like them.)
Your heart is wicked, you should not listen to it, but you should listen to them. If you think you can understand God's Word or know His will for your life outside of their authority then you are claiming to be the God of you life.
Now THEY on the other hand, or should I say BA, (because the other "theys" are under BA's authority,) is not his own God when he sits under no authority except God's direct leading. He is not his own God for doing so, but he is God in your life. If you can not accept this then you are the Anti Christ. If you ever leave you are in grave danger.
Now why did it take a whole book to prove this? Certainly, if God meant this to be so, and if this is so necessary for salvation, then we would find it clearly spelled out all in one place in at least one of the New testament books.
But guess what; all those pre HH years of reading your Bible, you never saw this. And no it is not because you were blind. It is because it is not in there. Look at all the scriptures they use. They are so pieced together and taken out of context... No wonder every book but one in the New Testament tells us to beware of false teachers. I wonder if they have a book dealing with that, since it was such a concern of the New Testament writers. I must not of gotten to the level where I get that book. I was only there seven years. There were still books I was not privy to. Sorry to be so sacastic but this whole thing produces what I beleive to be a rightous anger.
Do you know where the New Covenant is written? Well it is not in one of their books, nor is it handed down from them.
We will hear the Gospel of God preached by men, (and now also recorded in the Bible as it was preached by them.) Then once we repent and accept the Gospel as God's plan for our salvation, God will write that New Covenant on our hearts!!!! The very place these men don't want you to look. The very place they said you will be deceived by. But, your heart is no longer desperately wicked. You have been born again. His Spirit abides in you.
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a New
Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the
covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to
bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I
was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant which I will
make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my
law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their
God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each man teach his
neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all
know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will
forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah
31:31
A young man pointed out something to me this week that I think is very important:
Jesus said He must go away so the Spirit would come and guide us in all things. Yet these men say Jesus is still here in the flesh, that they are him, and they here to guide you. They want you to look to them, not the Spirit. They usurp the Holy Spirits place.
John Chapter 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; ...
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
God in the flesh went- and God as Spirit came. We will be guided by the Spirit. God has put gifts in the body to equip the saints and serve them, not to tell them what to do, not to ursurp the Holy Spirit's place of leading.
24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard
from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the
Father. 25 And this is what he has promised us, eternal life. 26 I write
this to you about those who would deceive you; 27 but the anointing which
you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one
should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is
true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him. 1 John 2:24-27
I was once guilty of letting these men sit on God's throne in my life. I made them lord and feared them more than God himself. So many times I went against my conscience and the Word of God in order to please and obey these men. God brought me to repentance.
Now I feel lead to share one more thing with you:
The Bible says God gives us the desires of our hearts. (4 Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalms 37:4) Hint: Delight yourself in the Lord, not your church!
Do not feel guilty for not wanting to spend so much of your time serving the men's desires. Do not feel guilty for desiring more time with your family. Do not feel guilty for needing sleep. Do not feel guilty for buying your bread and using the time saved to cuddle with your children and read them stories. Your bread, your gardens, the land, the literature, they will all perish. Some of these have their place, but they are not the priority. It is good for your family to come first. Do not feel guilty for wanting to meet the needs of your own family before the needs of the church. It is ok, your family is your responsibility. You may think you are the only one who feels these desires so you feel guilty. They want you to think that. You are far from alone!
These are desires of your heart! - not your flesh! They are God given desires. Galations 5 tells us what is of the flesh. We are to crucify the desires of the flesh not the desires of our hearts. Meeting the needs of your family and your own needs, including sleep, are not of the flesh.
Take your children fishing or camping and listen to them out there in the quiet away from the demands of the world and the elders. Sit around a camp fire and realy listen to their hearts, build a relationship. Show them you love them. Get to know them. Be a father to them every day. Build a relationship with any grown children too.
Build your marriage. When was the last time you gave yourself up for her? How often do you have energy to meet each others needs? Brothers and sisters can serve each other by keeping each others children so couples can get away at least once a month, even better, once a week. Don’t expect God to make up for your neglect just because the elders say you have to do something that is more important to them. Obey God rather than man. God has given you the desire to be with your family so you can meet needs; even your needs.
God wants to set you free to serve Him; not man. I am pleading with you: Return to your first love. Let your love flow to God, to your family, friends, neighbors, brothers and sisters as the Holy Spirit leads you, even if it is with friends these men say to shun. Ask God what he would have you do. Let His Spirit show you what is important. Listen to your heart, for it is there that the Spirit will speak to you. It is there that God abides and that is how you will know Him and His will.
What does your conscience bear witness?
Romans 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit…
Keeping my eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith,
ForeverHis
(Message edited by foreverhis on July 24, 2005) |
charitygrace (charitygrace)
New member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.79.206.88
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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bump |
charitygrace (charitygrace)
New member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.0.38.67
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 2:14 pm: |
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bump |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 12:38 pm: |
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bump |
under_grace (under_grace)
Intermediate Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 249
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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To anyone looking,
It is my understanding that originally Homestead Heritage was called Emmaus Fellowship. Named because of what happened with Cleopas and another brother traveling on the road to Emmaus. The story goes .....
LK 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
They walked along talking about Jesus and events surrounding his death. When they came to a stopping point.....
LK 24:28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.
LK 24:30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
Maybe you are a member from HH looking on this web-site. Maybe you are someone considering making the “covenant unto death” to become a part of HH. Read these two posts and see if the words do not ring true in your hearts. As an ex-member I concur with “Meye-View and ForeverHis” this is an accurate picture of HH. If you have questions “Meye-View” or “ForeverHis” or another ex-member would be happy to clarify.
Under Grace |
cnk
New member
Username: cnk
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 70.245.197.122
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 4:35 pm: |
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HH is a cult. They will deny it. You have to accomplish certain steps before you can become a member. You have to read there literature before you can even be baptized. You have to make an oath when you are baptized that you wont leave the fellowship. Sometimes when poeple do something wrong, they get punished by not being allowed to come to church for a few weeks. Some just flat out get disfellowshipped. You have to ask permission before doing anything, even getting married. |
holierthanthou
New member
Username: holierthanthou
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 70.112.248.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 9:10 pm: |
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Most denominations if not all will give you literature to read about baptism before you are baptised. I thought the literature some years ago were very edifying at the time. As to taking oaths
other than an oath unto death for Jesus, these do in fact confuse me and I was outside the loop when the practice was implimented. Logically, there must have been a principle solidified whereby the process of salvation for those exposed to HH includes covenant with HH. When I was baptised, the requirement was only covenant to God himself. This goes as well to any patterns or rules given an oath to. But to be a constitutional member then was a separate step from the water baptism. I can only believe this evolution of HH practise is unfortunate. I think it came about because young people were getting baptised and then relaxing to the patterns of the fellowship; correct me if I'm wrong. You KNOW how personal the leaders and parents took things when they thought kids were backsliding. Maybe this aspect will change back to the way it was before. I hope so.
As to being punished and disfellowshipped, these things are not by principle wrong. I can't speak to individual circumstances. We tend to bristle when we think we were dealt with unfairly.
However, it is sort of like in the army; if everyone is subject to spitting and being screamed at and being "dressed down," then it is not so traumatic when it happens to you. Our pride is the most stubborn aspect of our flesh, and every single member in HH who wants to be there is working on being more humble. HH takes the process of losing your pride to an extreme level. But to harp on these experiences in a public forum will only make outsiders think there is a lot of abuse going on and even question the leader's motives. Well, they have had the same experience in the army too, and now boot camp is not the same as in the old days. Probably the verbal "abuse" and physical torture is done more in secret I am guessing. I would bet a lot of money, though, that the leaders in the military still believe in extreme measures in training. And lament the "sissyfying" of boot camp training today.
As for asking permission before doing anything, even marriage; I don't know really what to say other than asking for permission to marry was traditionally a requirment in many cultures in the U.S. until recently and is still one in many cultures all over the world. Do I think parents and leaders are too smothering of their offspring in HH? Yeah. Do I think there is rampant abuse in child rearing there? No. Does this define a religious cult? Only in the sense that this rearing is not usual or concensually agreed upon in our society. Let me say this. In the U.S. there is more abuse taking place due to consistent and pervasive NEGLECT than any other kind. But there are no laws against neglect unless the child is starving to death or some such.
The overbearingness of HH authority is because they believe we are living in a literal life and death reality where hell itself is the end for many. Is this not the orthodox position, theologically? The thing is, if you believe a forever hell is possible for your loved ones, then what are you going to do about it? Let the kids run around like chickens with their heads cut off? That's really what it would look like if you let them go and do whatever they want on the land. Remember the "no congregating rule?" It was in response to the chaos and perceived flesh among kids who gang together for whatever reason.
Usually no good. Kids will be kids, right? Kids will be kids, and kids want the right to be kids. The Bible says, put those things away. Only for adults? No. |
missionary_lady
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 269
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.4.187
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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The most overbearing place I have ever been... |
pureheart
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 291
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:20 am: |
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Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:31-32 |
missionary_lady
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 344
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.100.84
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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Where are the falcoms????
I will be a voice that will cry out |
pureheart
Intermediate Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 292
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 71.40.43.90
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ephesians 4:31-32 |
missionary_lady
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 349
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.104.239
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 3:54 pm: |
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Paul warned, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." (Gal 5:1)
I fleeced the Lord if I were wrong for HIM to show me in a way that I would know and if I were right for Him to answer in a way I would know. He did I accepted it... |
nevermind_me
New member
Username: nevermind_me
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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sorry to bring up an old subject but i wonder how many books you can just take a few pages out and get the real meaning of what is being written read the whole book maybe it will make more sense to you probably not since you would be reading like a lawyer looking to dismantle anything you could not as a mature person of God trying to become a better person |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1560
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.99.45
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 9:42 pm: |
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I have more than a few pages...I have thousands of pages... |
nevermind_me
New member
Username: nevermind_me
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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why do you shy away from answering any of my questions ML? why wont you defend yourself for taking these teachings out of context? |
nevermind_me
New member
Username: nevermind_me
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 205.188.116.10
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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thanks for your view holierthanthou though i think a few of your views are a little skewed im sure a few of mine are would you say on the whole HH is doing more good or bad ? this is a question for holierthanthou |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.123.139
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 1:24 pm: |
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how have I taken teachings out of context???? |
praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 778
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 3:14 am: |
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Hi nevermindme,
holierthanthou only posted around March. So it is not known if he is following the forum.
In fact he wrote some of the most thoughtful posts on the forum, even if possibly struggling or skewed in some areas. Clearly not being trapped in the box of the current blasphemy and psychobabble sicknesses that is upon oppos now posting.
He wrote a classic on the dangers of prolonged contact with living, and a couple properly disassembling a lot of the 'cult dynamics' junque.
Here are three excerpts from the March posts...
... May I make an assertion. We are having a hard time finding and trusting leadership because the ministry of HH was real and good. It is hard to find anything so real as this one. Other churches pale; maybe they seem a little bit pansyfied. Just a little ...
... The leadership of HH must be holy in the holiness sense of the Christian world. And by this criteria, all three of the aformentioned leaders were false. No one here as far as I can tell accuse anyone in HH leadership of specific obvious sins of unrighteousness such as fornicating or having multiple wives who supposedly spawn divine children. What is accused of HH here is more vague and insidious ...
... A true spiritual leader, divinely ordained by God would be in reality worthy of this loyalty. Unto death and judgement. Wasn't the armies of David unto death? Who would not die for this man who was their king? Knowing he was not perfect in the righteousness sense, or inspired in the know exactly how to describe God in substance and analytical categorization sense. Yet they would die for him, it was assumed for all in fact. If he said, go left, they did. He said, go take that tower, they did. Did anyone make a written document required for this unquestioned loyalty? I don't know. Was there an oral vow? I don't know, maybe. All I am saying is that these principles in cult forums do not stand up because they began in secular brains and ended up here in Christian Psychobabblonia ...
Spot-on.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
foreverhis
Intermediate Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 409
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.142
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 5:23 am: |
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Who would not die for this man who was their king? ... they would die for him, it was assumed for all in fact. If he said, go left, they did. He said, go take that tower, they did.
They died for David Koresh and Jim Jones too.
A king... that describes the loyalty they place in BA to a T. Let us hope he is more like King David than David Koresh.
There was a time I would of died for him, but God opened my eyes.
Jesus is my only Spiritual King now, and I am
Forever His |
praxaluh
Advanced Member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 782
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 74.73.4.159
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 5:33 am: |
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holierthanthou
"Yet they would die for him, it was assumed for all in fact
... It is hard to find anything so real as this one. Other churches pale"
1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God,
because he laid down his life for us:
and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.51.164
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 9:52 am: |
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for the brether not for some cult leader that has people brainwashed into thinking him to be Jesus in the flesh,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
missionary_lady
Senior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.51.164
| | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 9:54 am: |
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for the brethern not for some cult leader that has people brainwashed into thinking him to be Jesus in the flesh,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
foreverhis
Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.54.69
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:25 am: |
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Bump |
majajh
Member
Username: majajh
Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.206.99.20
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 9:11 am: |
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It doesn't matter how much of the man-made crud is quoted, they'll still say it is out of context. The little Bible quotes in the literature are what is really out of context.
BTW, never heard back from Butch. Cults have a way of controlling those little doubts in the adherents minds. I planted some doubt in his mind about his earthly masters though.
I thought of something else. You know that the posters here do not belong to Homestead Heritage. Why? Heck, they don't want a thing to do with that yoke of bondage! |
foreverhis
Member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.176.54.69
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:10 pm: |
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The little Bible quotes in the literature are what is really out of context.
Man can make the Bible say anything he wants it to say if he proof texts enough and/or redefines some words.
That is why the mandatory acceptance of the Homestead Literature writers' interpretations as THE interpretation to live by is just plain dumb and dangerous.
It is unbiblical to mandate total compliance to their interpretation, when they should be encouraging a Berean attitude among the members, teaching them to search the scriptures to see if what they, (the leaders,) say is true. Paul said if anyone, even himself, came with another gospel, then let him be accursed. How is the believer to know if it is "another gospel," if he is not free to test the teachings against scripture.
In my opinion, the qualifications for elders in the church and their responsibility to test what is being taught, (even testing the "Apostle and Prophets,") is being ruled out by the doctrine of "Don't trust your self" and "accept what we say as from God, or you are the anti-christ."
It is blind acceptance. It is unbiblical. Instead of being discouraged, it is mandated. It is dangerous and has consequences in the here and now, as well as eternal consequence.
If what is being taught is truth, it can stand up to scrutiny, testing, and even some difference of opinion.
FH |
majajh
Member
Username: majajh
Post Number: 72
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 24.206.99.20
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:18 pm: |
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You're right. Also, if these fellas can "prophesy" and have visions, well, there's their mandate (in their minds) that their word is God's word to the people. |
missionary_lady
Junior Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 50
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 189.3.11.119
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:15 pm: |
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If the blind lead the bling they both will fall into the ditch...(Jesus) |
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