| Author | Message | ||
     godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 353 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.144 |
The importance of Joseph Smith in Mormon theology cannot be over-emphasized. Brigham Young, who became the second president (by majority vote), frequently praised Joseph Smith. Well, now, examine the character of the Savior, and examine the character of those who have written the Old and New Testaments; and then compare them with the character of Joseph Smith, the founder of this work...and you will find that his character stands as fair as that of any man's mentioned in the Bible. We can find no person who presents a better character to the world when the facts are known than Joseph Smith, Jun., the propet and his brother Hyrum Smith, who was murdered with him (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 203). ...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance...I cannot go there without his consent...He reigns there as supreme a being in his spere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289). While present-day Mormons do not worship Joseph Smith, there seems to be evidence that Smith wanted to elevate himself almost to the same level as Jesus Christ. Josiah Quincy related that when he visited Joseph Smith in 1844, the prophet put this inquiry: "Is not here one greater than Solomon, who built a Temple with the treasures of his father David and with the assistance of Huram (sic), King of Tyre? Joseph Smith has built his Temple with no one to aid him in the work" (Figures of the Past, as cited in 'Among the Mormons, p. 138). The 'History of the Church' contains some statements which seem to show that Joseph Smith felt he was almost equal with God: God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it (History of the Church, vol.6, pp. 319-20). If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of the mountain and crow like a rooster. I shall always beat them...I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408-9). One of the most important factors leading to Joseph Smith's death was his order to destroy a newspaper. Mormon scholar Kenneth W. Godfrey wrote: The Prophet's mayoral order, with the consent of the city council, to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor became the immediate excuse to stamp out his life...Perhaps in retrospect both Mormons and Gentiles were partly to blame for conflict which developed between them (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1968, pp. 213-14). The Nauvoo Expositor was to be printed in Nauvoo by prominent Mormon defectors who opposed Joseph Smith's political ambitions and the practice of polygamy. While LDS writers often refer to the Nauvoo expositor as a scandalous and vile publication, an examination of the paper reveals that it advocated high morals and obenience to the law. The thing that really disturbed the Mormon leaders, however, was that the Nauvoo Expositor exposed Joseph Smith's secret teaching of polygamy. In an affidavit published in the Expositor, June 7, 1844, Austin Cowles charged that he had seen "a revelation given through the Prophet" which taught "the doctrine of a plurality of wives." The Mormon leaders responded that Austin Cowles had lied, but eight years after Joseph Smith's death they published the revelation on polygamy. A careful reading of the revelation (now printed in the Doctrine and Covenants as Section 132) proves beyond all doubt that the statements in the Expositor were true. Thus it is clear that the Expositor was condemned on the basis of false testimony given by Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum. In the synopsis of the proceedings of the Nauvoo City Council we found the following: Mayor (Joseph Smith) said, if he had a City Council who felt as he did, the establishment (referring to the Nauvoo Expositor) would be declared a nuisance before night...Hyrum Smith believed the best way was to smash the press and pi the type (History of the church, vol. 6. pp. 441, 445). The Nauvoo City Council "passed an ordinance declaring the Nauvoo Expositor a nuisance" and ordered the press to be destroyed. Under the date of June 10, 1844, we find the following in Joseph Smith's History: The Council...issued an order to me to abate the said nuisance. I immediately ordered the Marshal to destroy it without delay...About 8 p.m., the Marshal returned and reported that he had removed the press, type, printed paper, and fixtures into the street and destroyed them (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 432). Mormon historian B.H. Roberts admitted that "the legality of the aciton of the Mayor and City Council was, of course, questionable,...neither proof or argument for legality are convincing. On the grounds of expediency or necessity the action is more defensible: (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 432). Vilate Kimball, the wife of Heber C. Kimball and a faithful Mormon, wrote: "June 11 th. Nauvoo was a scene of exit(e)ment last night. Some hundreds of the brethren turned out and burned the press of the opposite party" (Letter published in Life of Heber C. Kimball, P. 340). At first Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum fled to Iowa to avoid arrest, but they were accused of being cowards and urged to return to save Nauvoo froim the possibility of destruction. They finally went to Carthate, Illinois, where they were arrested for destroying the printing press. The Smiths were allowed to post bail for this offense but were then held on a charge of treason against the State of Illinois. While they were being held at Carthage a mob attacked the jail and both Joseph and Hyrum were shot dead by their assailants. In the LDS Church's Doctrine and Covenants, 135:3-4, we find these words concerning Joseph Smith's death: Joseph Smith, the prophet and Seer of the lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it...When Joseph went up to Carthage to deliver himself up...he said: "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter..." While we agree with the Mormons that there is no way to justify the unlawful and brutal acts of the mob at Carthage, we feel that it is going beyond the facts to compare the death of Joseph with that of Jesus. The Mormon leaders seem to be appealing to Isaiah 53:7: "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth." In the New Testament it is claimed that Christ fulfilled this prophesy (see Acts 8:32). He died without resistance. In 1 Peter 2:23 we read: "Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again, when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously." When Peter tried to defend Jesus with the sword, Jesus told him to "put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" (John 18:11) Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith died without putting up a struggle, but the actual truth is that he died in a blazing gunfight with his enemies. In the History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 617018, the following account is given concerning Smith's death: ...there was...a discharge of three or four firearms...Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter...he discharged his six-shooter in the stairway...two or three barrels of which missed fire. Joshep...dropped his pistol on the floor, and sprang into the window.... John Taylor, who became the 3rd predident of the church, testified that Joseph Smith "snapped the pistol six successive times; only afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died" (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-103). From the preceding information it can be seen that the death of Joseph Smith can in no way be compared to the death of Jesus. Jesus did go like a "lamb to the slaughter," but Joseph Smith died like a raging lion. Today the Joseph Smith of Mormon adoration is a highly romanticized version of the real Joseph Smith. While possessing natural abilities and talents, his personal character was far from the saintly image his followers mold him into. For more information on Joseph Smith and the LDS Church see the book, Major Problems of Mormonism, available from Utah Lighthouse Ministry. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) Junior Member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
excellent work of cut & paste. ya know...just because you have a loud voice doesn't mean you are right, especially when you don't know what you're talking about. yer just a parrot | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 164 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
nobody special, you open your mouth,& yet you say nothing to disprove anything GC said, other than you don't know what you are talking about. Please show example of why GC doesn't know what she is talking about. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 426 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.218 |
egk, please note that I place the place where I got the information at the bottom of my posts. I do not know how to cut and paste. Wish I did. But I think God planned it so that I have to really read what I choose to copy by typing it once again. I was a member of the lds church from the time I was 13 til age 38. I read the bom through in 1973, and had continual use of mormon books (scripture) from my mother and stepfather, who was a bishop of our ward. In fact, he married me to my mormon husband in 1973, in the ward in Soldotna, Alaska. If you want more evidence, send your address to vivart@cm.extreme.com and I will make copies of my documents, (and for anyone else also). Please do not start making the same mistake joesdad and solopilot did when speaking to me. Accusing me does not change any facts I present about the mormon church. If I were the Pope it would not change the facts of the mormon church and it's history. You may think what you will of me. God knows my heart. He knows yours too. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 427 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.218 |
Yaakov, will you please take the time, if you have it, to share with the mormons here the purpose of the temple from the first mention of it in the Bible? Was it used for baptism of the dead, or marrying by proxy, or other endowments, such as secret names? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 428 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.218 |
yaakov, I ask you because the mormons consider themselves 'the true Israelites'. Shoot, now I will have to go find that too, for egk's sake. | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
Ctrl + X = Cut Ctrl + V = Paste Your post basically means - Joseph Smith tried to rob Jesus of his 'Glory'. If i was to say "Jesus tried to rob God of his 'Glory'. Would you be quick to disagree? Of course you would be. Now if you do some more studying/research you will find that no where in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does it say that we should worship anyone but God, praise however is another thing. Somthing alot of people cannot understand because of shallowness, somthing that you should not have if you had kept the Spirit with you. As for baptism for the dead, if you don't believe that there is any need for it. Then baptism for the living is pointless too. And if thats the case the Bible is teaching us false doctrines. And if they are false doctrines how can anyone believe anything Christian religions teach us. And if thats the case what are we all doing here? Lets go break all 10 of the commandments, ill race you!> ROFL LOLOLOLOL.... Alot of people believe that that is the case. LOL what a wicked world we live in. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 538 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.213 |
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46). This is the way our Heavenly Father became God."It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God...He was once a man like us...God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did". -from the mormon book, Gospel Principles What is exaltation: Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessing. The Lord has promised, "All things are theirs" (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76). 2. They will become gods. 3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family. 4. They will receive a fulness of joy. 5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have--all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. --Gospel Principles (mormon book): Written both as a personal study guide and as a teacher's manual. Therefore, you can use this manual in many ways. It can help you- *Build your knowledge and testimony of the gospel. *Answer questions about the gospel. *Study scriptures by topics. *Prepare talks. *Prepare lessons for family home evening. *Prepare lessons for Church meetings. The intro goes on to say: Never speculate about Church doctrine. (In other words, if you want to become a god as defined by the lds church, and you don't like it you must lump it, which was a statement of js and by.) If mormons want to explain all this away by saying these statements by their dead prophets were for that 'dispensation', why are these statements in their current "Gospel Principles"? and when has the current prophet stated this is no longer to be taught? Or is there now a revised "Gospel Principles", as every other mormon been has become, including the bom, which teaches ONE GOD. About baptism for the dead. Show me where the bom says to baptize for the dead. This, according to the lds, is supposed to be 'the most correct' of ANY book. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 539 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.213 |
If mormons want to say their prophets words are over the bom, the Holy Bible states in Psalms 118:8-It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. Do mormons consider this Old Testament scripture to be misinterpreted? Then how about 2 Nephi 2:34-O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yes, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. (This bom is pretty current, published in the United States 11/2000). | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 540 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.213 |
If people can be baptized by proxy, what is the point of being baptized while alive? After all, mormons believe there will be a thousand years to complete all the baptisms, right. You are the one asking what's the point. You answer the question. If you have read the Holy Bible, you will know why. Even if you have only read the bom, you will know why. Show us where the bom says we should baptize for the dead. | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
The Book of Mormon explains that Baptism is essential,(2 Ne. 9:23) therefore wouldnt you question "What about those who dont have a chance to be Baptised". The Book of Mormon also tells us that through faith, prayer and the power of the Holy Ghost that he will reveal the truth of all things to us.(1 Ne. 10:19) So why would the Prophet not ask concerning these things? And if his faith is that strong surely the Lord will answer him.(1 Ne. 7:12) If Baptism for the Dead was only practised in the Temples and it was a sacred work only passed onto those who were worthy (Like Almas Writtings that were intended to be revealed upon the time that they had come to pass) so as to protect them. Then it does not suprize me that these Temple works were not recorded in these works. Also it is important to note that 116 pages were taken away by God. The Book of Mormon contains the Records of those people who had fled to the Promised Land. This is the link that my family had spent many years searching for. I am a 'Maori' the Maori people never knew were we came from because our language and records were destroyed. The Book of Mormon tells me of a group of people sailing off in ships from the west. Anyway thats another personal story. I hope ive answered your concerns with Baptism for the Dead. (quick note: all the changes made to the Book of Mormon, were punctuation, spelling, and footnote scripture referencing) | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
Thomas writes: "(quick note: all the changes made to the Book of Mormon, were punctuation, spelling, and footnote scripture referencing)"... Thomas has obviously never read any of the older editions of the Book of Mormon, for if he had, he would know that this is a patent falsehood. And the "116 pages" were thrown into a kitchen stove by a wife who wanted her lazy, good-for-nothing-but-belly-lint-gazing husband to get a real job and stop hanging out with that petty criminal, Joseph the "seer"--GOD had nothing to do with it. If He did, it would have been a simple matter to reproduce what was "lost"--but that's what happens when your a fraud and you don't make copies. But I got a question: Why would I pray to God to tell me the "truth" about something so stupid that just a little bit of digging will reveal the facts: IT AIN"T GOD'S WORD? Why insult GOD? Once again, Thomas, call the Kirtland Temple Visitor's Center, ask to speak to Barbara (she's the director) and she'll send to you fascimile edition of the very first printing of the Book of Mormon so that you can, once and for all, educate yourself on what you *don't* know. Godchild, while your exegesis is great, and the points are valid, they are also superfluous. The "truth" of Mormonism stands or falls on the professed reality of a "Great Apostasy". That's all, period. All the doctrinal issues and the purpose of Mormon Temples (the most boring, underawing places on earth as opposed to Solomon's Temple) are all just distractions from the real issue: If Christ is GOD Incarnate, and He said, "On this Rock I will establish My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", then there can be no Great Apostasy that gave way to the collapse of Christianity in the First Century Church. God doesn't lie, and He doesn't change His mind. This is the only issue that needs to be proved--everything else is just cake. Nobodyspecial: "yer just a parrot"... Now that's a really excellent "defense"! You should be looking in a mirror next time you say that, Love. The only kind of people who use the kind of argument you gave here are those who have nothing else to say--because *they* truly don't know what their talking about. Educate yourself, then come back and try again. In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
miki, "On this Rock I will establish My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Thank goodness for revelations given to the Prophets. Without it Jesus Christs words would not be fullfilled. If you dont understand what this means i will try find time to explain it to you. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
NO, Thomas, I know exactly what you are talking about--and false prophets do not perfect the words of Christ. There was no Great Apostasy and, once again, you don't know what the blazes you're talking about. How stupid do you think I am? I studied the intellectual deposit of Mormonism for six years, Thomas. I finished the full course at the Institutes of Religion--twice. And you think you have a one-up, here??? Please, get real! But you just keep following that false prophet of your's...straight into the lake of fire...Your "rock" will sink to the depths of that pit fast enough. In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
No Apostasy = No need for Book of Mormon? .: No Apostasy = No Fallen State .: No Fallen State = Succesor to Saint Peter .: Succesor t s p = Linus .: Linus = Roman Catholic .: Roman Catholic = True Church If i cannot be with my family forever and maintain this soul, why are we hear? | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Junior Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.154.34.29 |
To know, love and serve GOD and to become Christ to one another (being like unto Him)--that is the purpose of life. See, here's what you miss: Man has existed in a fallen state since the Garden of Eden. Christ's salvic Mystery in the Eucharist (His life, death and Resurrection) does not free man from this fallen state in this life, but provides the grace to return us to our Majesty's intended state in spite of ourselves. And let's see...in choosing His Apostles, Jesus, GOD Incarnate, chose a bumbling idiot with a big mouth and a quick temper, nine cowards, a lying, thieving traitor, and one single, wholly faithful one. Seems like He knew He could work through them despite their failings. So what are you worried about??? Ah, might it be that in persisting in ignorance you can maintain that "testimony" of your's without being bothered by you conscience (which, BTW, is how the Spirit actually communicates Himself to us...). GOD is GOD, and you are not--He obviously knows better than you. In His Grace, miki | ||
| thomas_s (thomas_s) New member Username: thomas_s Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 60.226.29.167 |
Did you not learn about the Spirit of Christ? Did you not learn of the Holy Ghost? Do you not believe the words of the Prophets? Do you not understand the Holy Bible? I cannot deny the power of the Holy Ghost, because i have seen many things. If i worship a false God who is he that grants me blessings? Do you expect to recieve the many blessings that GOd has promised us when you have no faith in him? Do you expect to have food on your table without working for it? | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Advanced Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 553 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
godchild Yaakov, will you please take the time, if you have it, to share with the mormons here the purpose of the temple from the first mention of it in the Bible? Whoops, I missed this one earlier. The Temple’s original purpose was to house the Ark of the Covenant. In addition, the Temple was the ONLY place where sacrifices were allowed to be made to God. yaakov, I ask you because the mormons consider themselves 'the true Israelites'. So what? This is identical to Christians stating that they have replaced the Jews or they have been grafted in. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 552 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.151 |
This Christian does not believe she has replaced the Jews. Has a Christian told you this? | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.129.33.82 |
Godchild, keep in mind that while many rabbis are willing to concede that Jesus was a godly teacher, they do not believe He was/is Messiah. No Messiah, no New Covenant. In order to have a New Covenant, and a New Israel, one must supplant/replace/fulfill the Old. In Jewish commentary "Judeo-Christianity" is an oxymoron. Since Jews are still waiting for Messiah, as far as they are concerned Christianity has no basis in Judaism because they (Israel) still expect the Temple to be re-established, and Messiah to conquer their oppressors. Have I left anything out Yaakov? In His Grace, miki | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 567 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.22 |
Miki, I am going to ask you to leave your anger out of your posts. You have insulted my explanations more than once. You call what I say redundant. You assume I don't know what Yaakov as a conservative Jew believes when he has already explained this on many threads. While you sign, "in His Grace" to all your posts, you are not appreciative of the fact that it by His Grace, and not your view of your own knowledge that we should speak at all. I do not claim to have all knowledge, but what I do know is as firmly entrenched in my soul as God allows, which is much. And I am in His will, which means I am willing to be taught and/or corrected but not to be insulted by someone who thinks very highly of him/herself. Please show respect to all, including the mormons. What I want mormons to know is while they believe they have an exclusive hold on God's will, it is based on the lies of satan through men and is therefore not acceptable to God. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Advanced Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 557 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
godchild This Christian does not believe she has replaced the Jews. Has a Christian told you this? What is the replacement theology? Isn't is out with the Old covenant, in with the New? | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Advanced Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 558 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
pointlessshrew Godchild, keep in mind that while many rabbis are willing to concede that Jesus was a godly teacher, they do not believe He was/is Messiah. No Messiah, no New Covenant. In order to have a New Covenant, and a New Israel, one must supplant/replace/fulfill the Old. In Jewish commentary "Judeo-Christianity" is an oxymoron. Since Jews are still waiting for Messiah, as far as they are concerned Christianity has no basis in Judaism because they (Israel) still expect the Temple to be re-established, and Messiah to conquer their oppressors. Have I left anything out Yaakov? Yes. First, most rabbis don't consider your deity to be a godly teacher. The opinions I have heard are either 1) he is a mamzer 2) he was a myth or a non-existent person 3) just a regular guy. My personal opinion is #2. Second, since God's word is Eternal there is no "New" convenant, the old one is Eternal. It never expires. Third, It is unclear if the Messiah will actually "conquer" our oppressors. The messianic criterion is to bring about world peace. We don't know how the Messiah will do this. However, the Messiah MUST be the recognized, political ruler of Israel. Godchild is right, this is a Mormon thread. If you have further questions about Judaism, ask them on the Doctrine / Belief / Proofs / Religious Practices threads. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Intermediate Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 429 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.179.168.34 |
yaakov, I ask you because the mormons consider themselves 'the true Israelites'. So what? This is identical to Christians stating that they have replaced the Jews or they have been grafted in. This Christian does not believe she has replaced the Jews. Has a Christian told you this? What is the replacement theology? Isn't is out with the Old covenant, in with the New? This Christian does not believe she has replaced the Jews. Has a Christian told you this? Yaakov, I just wanted to point out that there is a difference between what Mormons are saying and what Godchild and Christians are saying. We believe that we have become part of God's chosen people in a spiritual way through faith. We also do not believe in throwing out the Old Covenant completely and replacing the Old with the New. Jesus specifically told us on this very subject that He came not to replace the law but fulfill it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 568 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.22 |
Easeltine, thanks for clearing that up. That is what I meant. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.138.185.204 |
First of all, Godchild, I am not angry--that is my writing style, and I apologise if you have misinterpreted it as anything other than forthright. I am not angry with you, nor have I been. But I tend not to be sentimental in my dialogues as it doesn't help to clarify issues. If I am ever angry with you, you will most definitely know it because I will state the fact. Second of all, I pray for that same grace and wisdom before I ever post in any online forum for just the reasons you state above. I am not relying on anything independent of GOD's grace, period. On the other topic: Yaakov, thank you for the clarification, but I must contend that this *is* germaine to the topic of this forum. In order for Mormon's to promulgate their idea of a 1st century "Great Apostasy" they have to assert that Christ is not Who and What He claimed to be. My understanding came in large part from dialogues with Rabbi (Dr.) Isaia Golden in New York City with whom I worked while tracking down the facts pertaining to Watchtower claims--most of what I said previously I got from him or rabbis at our local synagogue. Regarding the idea that Jesus was a "mythical figure", if this is so, why did Josephus (a Jewish Scholar) mention Him in his Roman history? And what was the purpose of the Council of Jamneh (Jamniah) c. 100CE if the Christians who followed Him weren't using the Septuagint to prove His Deity and gain converts? In His Grace, miki | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Intermediate Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 433 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.179.168.55 |
Miki, Josephus came to me before you posted this. Flavius Josephus (born A.D. 37) A Jewish historian, became a Pharisee at age 19; in A.D. 66 was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee. After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. Yaakov, have you ever read this quotation by Josephus? Even the earliest Aramaic version is incredible. Josephus is probably the best non-biblical source for verification of the N.T. It is amazing what he says regarding Jesus and how many people he talks about that were part of the N.T. Erich | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.138.163.226 |
Yep, Erich: I can find volume 2 of his collected works, but I can't find volume 1...I think it's in a box upstairs...nontheless, that's where the remark about Jesus is made. (My copy is over a century old and falling to pieces--I keep putting it them away for safe keeping, and then I can't find them when I need them...) It is of note, too, that Josephus wrote his history as a contracted work for Caesar. As a Hebrew writing a secular history, it can hardly be called biased in favor of the Christians, given what he does say in this regard is not highly favourable. In His Grace, miki (Message edited by pointlessshrew on August 07, 2005) | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Advanced Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 564 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Regarding the idea that Jesus was a "mythical figure", if this is so, why did Josephus (a Jewish Scholar) mention Him in his Roman history? He didn't. That was a known forgery added onto Josephus's writings. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Advanced Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 565 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Jesus specifically told us on this very subject that He came not to replace the law but fulfill it. Christians tell me that since the Law is fulfilled, then they don't need to follow it anymore. If the Law is not being followed, then yall have replaced it with a mere belief in your divine entity. | ||
| pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew) Member Username: pointlessshrew Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.138.163.226 |
Yaakov wrote: "...He didn't. That was a known forgery added onto Josephus' [sic] writings..." What proof do you have of this, and if this is so, why was it never discussed in any of the Ancient History courses I took at University? Why is no such matter challenged in any historical commentary I have ever read? As to the latter, this is an error, if this is what Christians tell you--they are wrong to say it, and ignorant of what their own Faith teaches. The actual doctrinal position of Christ was, "I came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it..." He also said, "..If you love Me you will keep My commandments..." What he was referring to most specifically was the Decalogue--the Eternal and unchanging Law given to Moses on the tablets. The only Law that Christians are not "under" and not required to keep are the 603 points of disciplinary laws pertaining to temple practise, ritual cleanliness and dietary restriction. However, we are also told not to bring scandal to our brothers. In the Christian epistles of the New Testament, the Book of Acts and the Letter of Peter state that "all foods are clean"--as Jesus had already said. But the first Christian Council at Jerusalem decreed that when in the presence of Jews, one must not do anything that would offend--including as pertains to kushrat. Likewise, even now, when I show up at the Jewish deli downtown for lunch, I'll have my soup and my pastrami on rye--but as much as I love it, I will not order a piece of Baklava for desert. I do not want to cause scandal or offense to those who run the place by eating meat and dairy together in their house, even though my own faith tells me that this is not an affront to GOD. I don't know who told you that Christianity is a free-for-all, Yaakov, but if they truly believe this, they can't possible have spent much time studying their Scriptures. I am very sorry if their error has offended you. In His Grace, miki | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Intermediate Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.179.168.31 |
Yaakov, It is called "hotly contested" by Josh McDowell, a Christian apologetics. The one in Arabic seems authentic. Josephus talks about more people then Jesus in the N.T. though, it is more then just one statement. There are other non-biblical sources telling about Jesus, I do have a listing of them. Erich | ||
| bradhanson137 (bradhanson137) Junior Member Username: bradhanson137 Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
I do not know if anyone is aware of this, but Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were both freemasons. This may be a shocker to those who know anything about freemasonry, as it is modern day Baal worship. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 195 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/8523.html?1120165832 Here you will find a whole thread on the very subject Nulla | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
pointlessshrew Yaakov wrote: "...He didn't. That was a known forgery added onto Josephus' [sic] writings..." What proof do you have of this As for Josephus, he was born in 37 CE, which post dates jesus supposed death. Ergo Josephus never saw jesus and wasn’t even alive when the Christians say jesus was alive. Josephus wrote many years after Jsus supposed death – starting after 67 CE. Some of Josephus writings speak of Yeshuas – but it is a common enough name. It may or may not have been the Christian god worshipped today. The most flagrant of Josephus "quotes" (Antiquities 18.3.3 ) about jesus are known to have been later forgeries from Eusebius' timeframe (300 CE). Earlier Christians, including Origen never mention it. And Origen DID write about Josephus – saying (in Contra Celsum) that Josephus did not believe in jesus as the Christ. (If even Origen’s quote is not itself a forgery. Louis Feldman, the pre-eminent Josephus scholar, says that Origen’s Contra Celsus does not reference "the 18th book of his Antiquities"). Then when Eusebeius shows up we get the infamous quote that contradicts Origen. Eusebius was a bishop known for outrageous quotes. Eusebius is definitely not a reliable source. Modern archeologists discovered an Arabic version of Josephus that does NOT contain the quote so loved by Christians. It is a later forgery. Again, from Louis Feldman the reknowned Josephus’ historian: Quote: "In a startling find, Shlomo Pines publishes citations of the TF appearing in Arabic and Syriac works of the 9th-10th century. These quotations substantially resemble our current Testimonium, but do not have two of the most suspicious phrases: "he was the Messiah" and "if indeed he can be called a man". Pines suggests these editions may have used an authentic, uninterpolated version of Josephus' work." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 771 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.219 |
The Jews don't have the Ark of the Covenant. They don't have Noah's Ark. They don't have the stones that the Ten Commandments were written on. Yaakov, what evidence do you have that the Talmud is not just fictional words written by men? | ||
| coconutmom (coconutmom) New member Username: coconutmom Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.99.164.194 |
I have to agree with godchild. The Jews do not have these things. Intellectually speaking though, If we know they existed as per the Bible, then where are they now? Lynn | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
The bottom line is this....Christianity is the belief in the ONE SAVING FAITH...that foundation has been laid "ONCE AND FOR ALL" by the apostles...that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and was buried and resurrected. And to confirm this...all the early church fathers (i.e., Origen, Iraneus, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria and so forth from the pre-Nicence period from the time of the apostles to 325AD....agree that Jesus was the son of God and was God. Any religion that tries to add works and righteousness to their salvation is blaspheming what Jesus our Lord and Savior did for us on the cross. Anyone that thinks Jesus' blood was not good enough to cover their sins and think they need to add to it...will not be saved and will not have a second chance. So I hope any Mormon who reads this will step out of their box and seriously think about their salvation. You only get once chance...its either heaven or hell. | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
Let me tell you the true documented facts about your prophet, of his last day,that are straight out of the Utah hall of records....more documents the church hides from you. Illinois Governor Ford had stepped into the situation, demanding that Smith give himself up to be tried in Carthage, Illinios. But Joseph, with his brother, Hyrum, decided instead to flee into Lowa. Once there, however, they began to have misgivings about running from the law. First, they had abandoned their flock, which produced in them a significant degree of guilt. Second, their presince in Lowa did not insure their safety since that territory's governor had never agreed to ignore Missouri's extradition order for Smith on the old charge of treason. Third, Smith's departure had left the Saints with virtually no leadership since many of the loyal apostles were away on missions. Fourth, a messenger informed Smith that the Nauvoo Legion had divided between those who wanted to defend the city and those who wanted to flee. So back across the mississippi both he and Hyrum journeyed, continuing on to Carthage, where they were placed in the town's Jailhouse. Smith understood all too well the seriousness of his situation. On the morning of June 27, he sent a letter to Emma. He seemed to sense that he had but a few more hours to live. "Dear Emma." he began. "I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children and all my friends, Mr. Brower, and all who inquire after me..... May God bless you all. Amen. Soon after finishing this note, Joseph scribbled another message addressed to Jonathan Dunham, telling hime to bring the Nauvoo Legion in order to "break the jail, and save him at all costs." (THAT SURE SOUND LIKE A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD The messengers galloped off with Smith's communiques. Nauvoo was only fifteen miles away, but Dunham never came. No one really knows why. Perhaps he was secretly dissatisfied with Smith's leadership. Maybe he knew that to make any move with the legion would result in a bloodbath in both Carthage, then in Nauvoo as Illinois Militias retaliated. Either way , after receiving the note, Dunham pocketed it, neglected to act, "and no other man in Nauvoo knew of the prophet's peril." Around five O'clock that afternoon, Joseph, Hyrum,Willard Richards, and John Taylor were quietly talking when they suddenly heard loud noises, shouts, and several shots being fired just outside the door that led into the jailhouse. A lynch mob of about 250 men with their faces blackened to conceal their identities had descended on the prison and were forcing their way inside. Smith and the others quickly threw themselves against the door, but were forced to fall back as musket balls ripped threw the wooden panel. The door flew open and immediately several shots rang out. Hyrum was struck in the face and stumbled backward, crying out:"I am a dead man!" Just before hitting the floor, several more bullets tore into his already lifeless body. Joseph called to him, "Oh dear! Brother Hyrum!" Then the Mormon prophet, who had been smuggled a sixshooter, fired all of his rounds at the door, severely wounding the man who had just killed his brother . Another shower of bullets sprayed the room, four of which hit John Taylor, who would miraculously survive. Willard Richards somehow avoided being hit by staying close to the doorway. But Joseph retreated, throwing his gun at the assailants and lunging for the Second-story window in a vain effort to ESCAPE........(MARTYR?????MMMMMM??) Just then, two musket balls hit Smith in the back as he leapt from the window. Another hit him from the ouside as shots rang out. He lurched forward, desperately yelling out the first four words of the Masonic call of distress:"oh, Lord my God." NOW HONESTLY, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD, BESIDE ALL OF THE FALSE PROPHESIES HE MADE Did you know that Joseph Smith once prophesied that the United States government would be overthrown in the 1800's????? Did you know that Joseph Smith once prophesied that the New Jerusalem would be built in Missouri in his generation?????? Did you know that Brigham Young once prophesied that the Civil War would fail to end black slavery???? Did you know that Brigham Young said that bothe the moon and the Sun were Inhabited????? DEUTERONOMY 18:20-22 "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other Gods, that prophet shell die and if you say in your heart, "How shell we know the word which has not spoken,?" When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the things DO NOT HAPPEN OR COME TO PASS, THAT IS THE THING THAT THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN AND THE PROPHET HAS SPOKEN IT PRESUMEPTUOUSLY, YOU SHELL NOT BE AFRAID. "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2peter2:1 May the Lord have mercy on your souls (Mormons) I won't stop praying as your followers are see the light and droping out of the mormon church ever day by the hundreds and they are so filled with the holyspirit and have a true relationship with the true Jesus, Keep coming and don't stop. To the mormons who have found the true Jesus ! Enjoy your blessings. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 501 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: Sorry mate, but it does become tedious when those ssuch as yourself arrive with the same old stuff - please put some effort into reading through the many threads here, you will find answers to what you say - discover facts you never knew, and finally will relaise that what you say is nothing new, and is far less a revelation to the average Mormon than you like to imagine. Enjoy the read, and look forward to hearing back once you have found out about those to whom you address your posts, and about the Church you criticise with little understanding of it. God Bless Robert | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Hi joesdad, Question, do you want me to give you more facts inside the church or outside the church???????, I've got all the facts you need, ask me anything you want and I will share all my knowledge and study (in and out) of the Mormon church, when it comes down to it, your right a lot of Anti mormons out there.........and that is Tedious, Just want spread the good new and let the mormons know that there Zeal is wonderful, but there knowledge next to none thanks for your responce Robert | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 505 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: Plain old facts do me, best of all those that rely on the truth. Much easier to discuss truth than opinion. I don't care for the uneducated mud-slinging "Praise the Lord" rubbish, too much of it out there muddling up the scene. I recall on my Mission a Born Again Pentecostal lady giving one of those extremely funny tracts about LDS Missionaries. In all honesty she asked me why I thought people did not publish things like that about her brand of "Christianity", really believing that this was a good point proving what she was saying was OK. The simple answer I gave? - well it's because it is only your brand that produces them! Sound bites sound good, praising the Lord for all to hear is great for those you want to impress - but that goes against one simple and fundemental principle taught by Chrsit. The point I am getting at is that whatever you THINK you know of my beliefs, I reckon a good two thirds is wrong. Robert | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
if you think on what they are saying is two thirds wrong, what part of it is wrong and what part is right?????????????? You need to be pacific, or there is no sence into defending or promoting what you say to be true | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 513 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: No, you are choosing to attack my beliefs and are therefore responsible no only for checking that what you say is correct, but you will also be resonsible for the effects that it has on others if what you say is false. You are living in the real grown up world, you can't justify your laziness by saying others failed to give you the right information or by pointing the finger and accusing others for not correcting your failings. In reality there is no point in your being here if you can't get off your backside and provide mature founded criticism. Which yes, does mean you can't rely on the crap your preacher or your favourite LDS basher spouts about LDS - He has his own agenda, and I'm sure it's based on his pay packet!. BTW - I can't tell what you think you know, so how can I be specific in telling you what part of it is wrong? Robert | ||
| dean (dean) New member Username: dean Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Joey, Joey, Joey, listen you don't have to believe anyone on this message board and that's cool, but dude come on..........you don't have to step that far out of your box and do some real home work.......don't be lazy, and you will find that just about everything you call anti mormon is from devoted mormons them selfs, your own apostle, your own leaders.............Just check it out and I can help you along the way if you like, again, don't believe me...............just do your home work,........as jesus said, the Truth will set you free. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Advanced Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 518 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Dean: Yeah !! |
