| Author |
Message |
    
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 347
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.63.26
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 2:41 am: | 
|
For those who are unaware, the Book of Mormon (B. of M.) is the book Joseph Smith first called a continuation of the Bible, but which the lds now call further scripture, (mormons can correct me if I am wrong). I only mention this for people who have not read the Holy Bible or are not familiar with its books.
One God
Book of Mormon
Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27, Testimony of the three witnesses
Plural Gods
Doctrine and Covenants- (not part of the BoM)
Section 121:32; 132:18-20, 37
God is a Spirit
B. of M. -Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11
God has a body
D. & C - Section 130:22
God Dwells in Heart
B. of M. - Alma 34:36
God Does Not Dwell in Heart
D. & C. - Section 130:3
Creation - One God
B. of M. -2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9
Pearl of Great Price (another separate book from bom) Moses, Chapter 2
Creation - Plural Gods
Pearl of Great Price -
Book of Abraham - Chapters 4 and 5
God Cannot Lie
B. of M. -- Ether 3:12; 2 Nephi 9:34
God Commands Lying
Pearl of Great Price - Book of Abraham 2:22-
25
God's Word Unchangeable
B. of M. -Alma 41:8
God's Word Can Change
D. & C. - Section 56:4-5
to be cont. |
nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial)
Junior Member
Username: nobodyspecial
Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.147.9.111
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:29 pm: |
|
are you saying the NOTHING in the bible ever contradicts itself?
and there are differences between contradictions and revelations. |
steelsword (steelsword)
Intermediate Member
Username: steelsword
Post Number: 165
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.192.2.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Nobody show us all the contradictions in the Bible, especially the ones that deal with the deity of Christ & the GodHead. |
thomas_s (thomas_s)
New member
Username: thomas_s
Post Number: 12
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.226.29.167
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
|
I am familiar with the writings of the Catholic and Christian Apologetics concerning the Book of Mormon scriptures. First you should question the people behind the questions.
I do not believe that you really intend to find the answers to there questions.
However if you do. Faith, Prayer, Real Intent.(James 1:5) |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Junior Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.154.34.29
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 2:50 am: |
|
Fine, if you don't want to look at apologetics sources, Thomas, do this (I did when I was doing a topical study on the BofM while still a practising member in good standing.):
Take the Index at the back of your Triple and go to the library. Look up all of the mundane words that appear in the Index in all the common references and encyclopedias in the Reference section of said Library.
Start with things like "linen", "honey bees", "metalurgy" (as it pertains to the New World...), "parchment".
Better yet, contact the Kirtland Temple and order a fascimile copy of the Palmyra edition of the Book of Mormon (they're 26.00 US)and read it side by side with the one you have that's been "revised and approved" by the Corporation of the Presidency dozens of times (more than 40x by the year 1908, alone)and see what you come up with.
And when you're done with this ask yourself, if the Book of Mormon is the "most perfect book in the history of man", as JS Jr. claimed, why has it been changed so drastically since it's first printing? Why do the LDS claim that these were simply "typographical corrections" when anyone can go to Jackson Missouri and compare the original with the autograph preserved by Emma Smith and archived by the Worldwide Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS) and find out for themselves that this is a lie?
Why do LDS and Desret Books no longer publish these same fascimile editions? They did when I was a member in the 80's and early 90's. Might it have been because hoards of people were aactually reading them (not just collecting them as a historical curiosity) and discovering the truth--that the Book of Mormon is not scripture, but a demonic fraud???
No, Love, the sad fact is that Joseph Smith Jr was a liar and a sheister who changed doctrines like he changed his BVDs. The "contradictions" of the BofM are a reflection of this fact. As well, it can be easily demonstrated that so many of the things in the BofM that the last three posters seem to think of as innocent and relevatory are just patent fabrications and lies resulting from shoddy scholarship, bad planning and arrogance.
Don't check your critical thinking skills at the door in exchange for a warm fluffy testimony based on subjective relativism and fear--STUDY IT OUT! If your testimony is authenticly from the Holy Spirit of GOD, this should only deepen it. But anybody can find the "answers to their questions" if they want to--especially the answers that they want to acknowledge. True character and the seeking of GOD is revealed when one goes looking not for answers, but absolute, irrefutable truth.
When you start looking for Truth without the worry of where it may lead to (even if it's out of the LDS) that's when your defense can be taken seriously.
In His Grace, miki |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Junior Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.154.34.29
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 3:17 am: |
|
Godchild: The LDS do not consider the BofM to be a continuation of the Bible, but a companion to it. It is called "another testament", not "further scripture". I'm not sure where you found the reference to JS Jr, but I don't remember any such statement from "The History of the Church" or the "Journals"...
Nonetheless, Godchild's references are correct. Maybe one of our three "defenders" can explain--if GOD is not Spirit, as the Book of Mormon most definitely attests, why do neither the BofM or the Bible testify to it as a fact--even by implication?
And don't try the "finger of God writing on the wall" crap--Psalms also says that God has wings, and other scrpitures have similes and anthropormorphisms that are too ridiculous to contemplate as anything other than literary devices...
But lets look at the most basic facts of record. Joseph Smith's first statement that God is a perfected, glorified man of "flesh and bone" came when giving the address at King Follett's funeral (The "King Follett Discourse"--for those of you who have never heard of it--it's only a few pages long and can be purchased for a couple of dollars at any LDS or Deseret Book Store, for your own records. It's great to have on hand for dealing with missionaries...).
If this is true, then why did JS Jr never mention it before? And why did he not mention it again until answering the objections of some of his followers as seen at DyC 130?
This isn't just a contradiction, it's sophistic subterfuge--just like that he used against Emma to excuse the fact that he'd knocked up his wife's teenaged mother's helper. God didn't ordain plural marriage, Joseph Smith's need to keep up the facade of prophet (and not have his wife knocking him upside the head with a frying pan) did. Joseph Smith's "revelations" that are catalogued as "scripture" in "Doctrine and Covenants" are very convenient to the dificulties that JS's so-called "contradictions" encountered with people who hadn't yet had their brains sucked out...
Likewise, the "contradictions" (a very short list, I might add...) illustrated by Godchild and responded to by you three show the most glaring contradiction off all--when faced with the truth Mormons and their supporters always point the finger elsewhere instead of just fessing up to reality.
That right there is one of the many things that makes Mormonism a cult...
In His Grace, miki |
thomas_s (thomas_s)
New member
Username: thomas_s
Post Number: 24
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.226.29.167
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 7:08 am: |
|
You pressume far to much about me.
Here is a lil bit of wisdom for you.
"He who controls the present controls the past"
The world was once flat.
The Holy Bible was not the original name given to it. And i know without a doubt that certain things have been changed within the Holy Bible. And the only way to know whether the things are true or not is through the power of the Holy Ghost and the Book of Mormon. This fullfills Christs promise. |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Junior Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 49
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.154.34.29
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 7:24 am: |
|
What would you rather call the Bible...?
Tanakh? No that's just the Old Testament. Septuagint? That's the greek Alexandrian Codex that includes the Deutero-canon--the same that Christ used. Codex Canonicus? That's what the thrid century Church called it.
And I hate to burst your bubble, Thomas, but remember all those scrolls found in the caves at Q'umran in the late 1940's? Well the scrolls that were found that come from the Bible prove irrefutably that today's Bible translations are far more accurate than you, Joseph Smith or the Watchtower Society would like people to believe...
Nonetheless, you still haven't provided any reasonable answer for all the many docrinal revisions and flips found in the Book of Mormon. The only promise that the BofM fulfills is "In the last days, false prophets will come among you to decieve..." That'd be your beloved book of satanic mischief...
In His Grace, miki |
thomas_s (thomas_s)
Junior Member
Username: thomas_s
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.226.29.167
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 7:27 am: |
|
If you will please determine the difference between Christ and satan in one word. |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Junior Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 50
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.154.34.29
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 7:29 am: |
|
BTW, Thomas: The world was *never* flat--it was only the ignorance of some that had them believing the errors and myths of snobby elitist who thought they knew everything without the benefit of a real education.
But how much courage did it take for Columbus to look in the face of the error that his peers espoused as "truth" and fly headlong into the uncertainty that prevailed amongst his compatriots to find that truth?
It takes courage to seek out truth--only cowards fight to keep their myths intact...
In His Grace, miki |
thomas_s (thomas_s)
Junior Member
Username: thomas_s
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.226.29.167
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 7:39 am: |
|
Since you could not answer my question allow me.
Few possabilities:
Christ = Good
Satan = Bad
Christ = Light
Satan = Darkness
Christ = Truth
Satan = Lies
Correct? (This question asks for a yes or no response - Noncommutative logic ) |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.154.34.29
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 7:55 am: |
|
Christ: GOD
Satan: ego-maniacal moron
There's no logic here, Thomas. Quit trying to change the subject.
And don't ever tell me to shush again, you rude little man...keep more than one window open and MSN is unecessary.
in His Grace, miki |
thomas_s (thomas_s)
Junior Member
Username: thomas_s
Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.226.29.167
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 8:15 am: |
|
The logic behind this question is you claim that the Book of Mormon is of satan.
Therefore you believe that there is no goodness, light or truth in the words written within the pages of the scriptures.
1 Nephi 1:1 "I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore i was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.
We already see that he honours his parents, a qaulity that we too should have.
His father (Lehi) also shows resposability to his children by teaching them about God.
We also see his love for God. |
yaakov (yaakov)
Advanced Member
Username: yaakov
Post Number: 554
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 63.148.234.6
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 1:16 pm: |
|
pointlessshrew
What would you rather call the Bible...? Tanakh? No that's just the Old Testament.
Thomas_s does have a point, pointlessshrew when he said The Holy Bible was not the original name given to it. And i know without a doubt that certain things have been changed within the Holy Bible.
The Tanakh is the Jewish bible, the Old Testament is the Christian bible. The OT is only about 85-90% the same as the original, the Tanakh. This point is obvious to see when you consider that when Jews and Christians each read their own bibles, they get two different meanings from them. |
godchild (godchild)
Advanced Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 553
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.63.151
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 2:38 pm: |
|
Yaakov, Please forgive us for borrowing your Jewish Bible. My New Testament tells me; Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. God shows us His love. Is my God so different from yours? It is no surprise that the Israelites do not believe Christ is the Messiah. We are told that in the New Testament. We are also told God is no respector of persons.
Pointlessshrew, I know the lds now teaches that the bom is called a companion to the Bible. When I was a member, from 1960-1986, we called it a continuation. |
godchild (godchild)
Advanced Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 554
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.63.151
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
|
Thomas, My Bible does not give 'one' definition for satan or Christ:
satan, Titles of:
Abaddom, Apollyon, angel of the bottomless pit.
Accuser, adversary, Beelzebub, prince of demons, Belial, evil one, god of this age, murderer, father of lies, prince of the power of the air, ruler of darkness, ruler of this world, Satan, serpent, serpent of old, wicked one. Origin of, in heaven.
Christ
Preexistence of, Ps 2&; John 8:58; Col 1:15-18
Birth of, from a virgin, Isa. 7:14; Matt 1:18:25
Deity of, Isa. 9:6; John 1:1, 14, 18:20, 28, 29; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8
Humanity of, Gen. 3:15; Matt. 22:45; Luke 3:38, John 1:14, 1 Cor 15:45-47; Gal. 4:4; Phil. 2:5-11; 1 Tim. 2:5
Character of:
omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, holy, righteous, just, guileless, sinless, spotless, innocent, gentle, merciful, humble, forgiving (you get the picture). |
thomas_s (thomas_s)
Junior Member
Username: thomas_s
Post Number: 39
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 60.226.29.167
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 8:29 pm: |
|
Godchild.
I never asked for what the Bible had to say on the matter, it is a personal question.
Maybe i should of asked "In your heart give me one word to describe the difference between Jesus and Satan" Which dosnt make much sense when i look at it now, cause the answer would be "opposite" but you must understand what i mean. So if Jesus is Good, Satan must be Evil.
And if the Book of Mormon is Evil then teaching us to love our Parents and teach our Children and love the Lords commandments must not be Good. |
godchild (godchild)
Advanced Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 565
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.53.70
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:40 pm: |
|
Joseph Smith said that all churches on earth were an abomination. All christian churches study and follow the Holy Bible which teaches us to love our parents and teach our children and live by the Ten Commandments. Why do you think Joseph Smith said what he did? Do you believe the Holy Bible is an abomination? Do you believe it is the Word of God? Do you know the bom speaks against plural marriage, blood atonement, and false prophets? What does salvation mean to you. Define a Christian. Define God. Define the Holy Spirit. Do you believe there is a Holy Spirit and a Holy Ghost and the spirit of Christ? Does the bom say that? Does the bom say there is more than one God?
Joseph borrowed from the Bible for some of his translation. The rest is fiction. Fiction and plagerism does not a gospel make.
Do you know, I was on another mormon discussion board earlier today. One mormon said, "Treasure-digging during Joseph Smith's day was a respectable profession." Do you know about the treasure-digging Joseph Smith did. Read Emma Smith's journals and see what she thought of her husband sleeping with girls and their mothers and calling them wives. Read what the other associates of Joseph Smith thought of it. Read about Brigham Young owning the only liquor store in Salt Lake and about his complaining that his men weren't doing enough work because they were too drunk. And this was after he wrote the Word of Wisdom. Read about Joseph Smiths beer making. Read about Joseph Smith marrying married women.
Start reading some history. Start reading about the Smithsonian saying the mormons lied about using them as verifiers and the National Geographic. This should give you a good start. But I will make a suggestion before you start. Get on your knees and tell the Lord you are asking Him to give you truth. Tell Him you would like to be in His will. Tell Him thank you for sending His only begotten (not created) son to die for you because works will not gain your salvation. Until then, you will posting to yourself as far as I am concerned. |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 60
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.129.33.82
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 2:23 am: |
|
Yaakov: my apologies if my utilisation of the Masoretic term "Tanakh" offends you.
My point in doing so was to illustrate to our little friend that Christianity sprang from Judaism, not American mythology.
One of the problems, here, is that Joseph Smith Jr. claimed--and the LDS heirarchy has expounded on this falsehood--that starting with slacker Jewish scribes (that never existed) the Canon of Scripture (that did not actually exist at that time in the form that he percieved it [an organised Codex], but for JS Jr's purposes that's only incidental) was perverted and changed. The result is that, like their Jehovah's Witness counterparts, the Mormon "Church" acknowledges the inspired nature of Scripture--but only "insofar as it is translated correctly..."
Thomas would have us believe that his understanding of the history of the Codex is superior to those who have actually studied it. Nonetheless, I am sorry if my sarcasm in the face of Thomas' insolence has caused you any offense or concern.
In His Grace, miki
(Message edited by pointlessshrew on August 06, 2005) |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
Member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.129.33.82
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 2:53 am: |
|
Thomas:
Lehi and Sariah are *fictitous* figures, as is Nephi.
My friend, Ann Margaret Lewis, is just finishing the manuscript for a new novel which she bases on the Nephilim in the book of Genesis. I have been reading and editing her galleys.
Now, here's the fun part: Ann (a Christian) has constructed a very believeable and yet fantastic society of the descendants of the Nephilim which, while based on an allusion in Scripture, is not scriptural. But these characters believe in GOD. Some are evil, some are good. Some are even Jewish--and she consulted several Jewish writer she knows to get her references to Jewish theology and cultural practise straight (this is where Joseph Smith's novel failed...). All practise a religion. Does this mean that Ann's book is Scripture?
Satan is Bad, Jesus is good--does Ann Margaret Lewis pen Scripture??? NO!!! And neither did Joseph Smith Jr. Just because the man ripped off huge portions of Isaiah almost verbatim (and all containing the same errors of translation found in the KJV in the same passages, incidentally) and the Gospels, does this mean that the Book of Mormon is inspired? Yes. But the question is from *where* comes this inspiration?
What you ignore, Thomas, when you rely on the fallacious, subjective, feel-good "testimony" that is spoon fed to you in the "Church", is that Satan has been telling the exact same lie throughout history since the first one in the Garden--"You shall be like gods".
What he leaves of is that we are already like GOD, being created in His image. The fault--the lie--however, comes in that Satan wants man to achieve the myth of godhood through his own powers of will. Joseph Smith expounds on the same lie. Joseph Smith tells us a fantastic story, and tries to sell us the exact same package as the one Satan pawned off on Adam and Eve--a big, fat juicy lie couched in truth.
Satan told them what was good, and then he used that platform of truth to make his lie believable. Joseph Smith Jr. learned from the master. Unfortunately, he didn't check his sources very well and, as a result, people have been poking holes in his mythology ever since.
Satan appears to men as an angel of light, Thomas, for a reason. You use the soft porridge of emotional subjectivity, as I've said umpteen times, now, to "prove" the Book of Mormon is Scripture. But you deliberately avoid objective, scholarly reason to do the same. You see the vision and are so enthralled with the uniqueness of it that you refuse to find the solution to the trick.
The Book of Mormon is no more Scripture than my friend's novel. If you would hold it up to the light of scrutiny, you would learn this. But you like your nice shiny apple--it makes you feel good and special. Just be careful: like all things that originate with the adversary, there are worms and rot under all that pretty packaging...
In His Grace, miki |
|