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doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 10:56 pm: | 
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This discussion has come up recently on the "positive testimonies" thread, and it should be open for discussion. One man was calling another a "God robber." This is a familiar statement made by preachers/members of NTCC.
I personally bought fully into the idea when I was a member, Bible School student, and then as a Pastor, both "paying" tithe and teaching tithe as a commandment for Christians. I did not leave the organization over the issue, but as I began to question all the doctrines and study with a desire to know without the fear of consequence of an organization I realized that utilizing Malachi chapter three to force Christians to give 10% of their gross income is not consistent with Scripture.
Please, do not misunderstand, if someone wants to use 10% as a baseline to give that is fine, but for a minister to teach that someone is a "God robber" and not a Christian because they do not give 10% of their gross income is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
I Cor 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of neccessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
steelsword (steelsword)
Intermediate Member
Username: steelsword
Post Number: 149
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.192.2.34
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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I think 1 cor 9:7 is your answer. Tithing was and old testament jewish law. Christ fullfilled the Law on the Cross. He paid the jewish preist for us with his blood. He tore the veil in two.
Malachi if read in the right context is Isreal
placing a curse on God. They felt God had forsaken them.
There is no tithing law in the new testament.
We are to give from the heart, that may be time, or money,or service. We cannot feel guilty about
it or we are not giving from the heart.
I know as a member of a church that i have responsibilities. There are bills to be paid .
This is not tithing, but a responsibility that i except as a member. If i ever hear a preacher use malachi 3, i usually,confront him,& let him know that he is out of context. If it was my church , i'm out the door.
Am i a cheerful giver, sure. I give my time in the praise & worship band, I give to missionary
work, to bible colleges,etc. 10 pecent? i GIVE WHAT I CAN GIVE,IT MAY BE A DOLLAR OR IT MAY BE A HUNDRED DOLLARS. It dosen't matter as long as it's from the heart. |
jesusfollower (jesusfollower)
New member
Username: jesusfollower
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 24.241.3.164
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
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Our personal earnings does not belong to us in the first place, it belongs to God. There's a lot of reference to money in the bible because in reality we as people, the attitude of our hearts towards money is an indication where we are in Christ. I'm sure God understands how hard it is for us, because God even challenge the israelites in Malachi, which is "Test me in this" and basically blessings from heaven will come. For me to say and anyone to say I give when I feel like it or in the mood is laughable, that's just like saying, I'll pay my taxes when I feel like it and then still expect protection. God's standard is for us to give with a willing and cheerful heart, and God can only impute that in us through prayer and walking with the Lord. It's already outline in the bible the purpose of the tithe money. I just have to learn to grow in Christ to see and understand God's plan. Is NTCC justifiable in saying "God robber", sure it's harsh but it is true. People want things from God but they are inconsistent in their attitudes and service. Take a lesson from Cain and Abel, Cain learn the hard way for not doing it God's way. God had an expectation and Cain decided to do his own thing. |
letgodbetrue (letgodbetrue)
New member
Username: letgodbetrue
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 172.148.87.138
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:23 am: |
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Just a few thoughts on the principle of tithing.
Paying tithe is an eternal principle
– dare I say a basic law of nature? You give – you get. What goes around comes around. I’m going to paraphrase some favorite sayings below. I don’t know who was the first person to coin every phrase below (with the obvious exception of the one bible verse quoted). I will try as much as possible to give credit to where I heard/read it first.
----Ecclesiastes 11:1 “Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.”
----Mathematician John Forbes Nash, Jr., an M.I.T. professor who won the Nobel Prize in economics first put forth the principle that you get what you want by helping enough other people get what they want.
----Og Mandino once wrote, and I paraphrase: “For your ship to come in, you must first send one out.”
----Zig Ziglar said something like this: “You must first prime the pump, then water comes out – you have to put something in to get something out.”
Some more things to think about:
----Tithing is good for the soul. It helps you to think about someone and something besides yourself. I have read of people literally tithing of their time.
----10% is everybody’s “fair share”, not like the federal government who increases the tax rate as your income becomes greater. Also, the rich don’t get “tax breaks” on tithe. The poor man pays 10% and the rich man pays 10%. Tithing is an equal opportunity principle.
I have some scripture references to post but will save them for another day.
Angela Eury |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
New member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.230.86.1
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 3:56 am: |
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I don't think anyone is saying that tithing is a bad practice or that God won't bless a person for it; the topic is whether or not it is a commandment for believers today and whether or not one is "robbing God" and on his way to hell for not doing so. I still tithe myself (although not to any one entity, and especially not to one that presumes itself entitled to it), but I don't think it has anything to do with my standing before God--that is based solely on the blood of Jesus.
Vic Johanson |
original (original)
Junior Member
Username: original
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 147.35.248.6
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 5:28 am: |
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I am not the man to play around with issues or choose my words carefully to something produce by the devil, neither does God. Therefore,
Doug,
Why would you suggest such a thing concerning the teaching of tithe? Do you know your disclaimers to the issue will be ignored and weak christians may stop paying tithe because of you? You are not right in your scripture quote... rightly "dividing" the Word of God does not uphold your claim, sir. Rightly dividing the Word means just that, by the Holy Spirit, knowing the will of God BY THE WORD. There are things in the old testament that still apply to new testament Christians. For you to say this and that was for Israel in the old testament only, is not up to your understanding to conclude. Also, God loves a cheerful giver... true, but you PAY tithe. Who are you to determine what you owe God?
Let's not condemn ourselves to hell by the words and ideas we put out in public. Mr. Allen, don't you know you'll be judged by every action contrary to the Word of God your teaching will cause?
You say you left NTCC for a reason other than the issue brought up. Why are you mentioning NTCC in the same breath with your opinion? Is the objective still to fault NTCC? How long has it been since this detestable thread was originally posted? When will the bitterness cease? Tithe? Tithe, doug? Walking in the Spirit (I'm guessing you'd claim) led you away from believing that tithe is owed to God still?
I don't understand. I pray that nobody will stand with you on this.
(Message edited by original on July 14, 2005) |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 193.194.84.198
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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I will stand with Doug on this, Original. It takes nothing but a humble spirit and intellectual honesty to see the plain truth. Read II Cor 9:7 again, nice and slow. It's the plainest scripture in the New Testament on this issue. Paul manifestly did NOT teach mandatory tithing; just the opposite is true.
You seem horrified by the prospect that "weak Christians may stop paying tithe" because of what Doug has posted, but the reality is that weak Christians are being exploited by NTCC's false teaching on this issue.
If you will tell me that you dug this doctrine out of the New Testament yourself, you would be lying. You never came to the realization that God demanded 10% of your paycheck as you sat there reading your Bible. From the first day that you sat in a NTCC church service, you've had things represented to you this way, and you've been taught how to defend this doctrine by stringing together certain Bible verses that have NOTHING to do with a Christians financial responsibility to the church.
Jesus never taught on the subject of tithe, period. He taught on the WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW, and simply mentioned tithe in passing, on his way to making his REAL point. He was talking to Pharisees, and what he said about "not leaving the other undone" was clearly a caveat so that his detractors could not accuse him of being subversive. To represent this as "Jesus taught tithe" is so intellectually dishonest that it is a LIE. The one who "rightly divides the word of God" will rather use that verse in it's entirety to teach the same thing Jesus was ACTUALLY teaching, and not twist it into a commandment on giving.
So is it with the book of Hebrews. To represent the passage on Abraham as "New Testament teaching on tithe" is so inaccurate that it amounts to a lie. It doesn't take a Ph.D. in divinity to see that the author is making a fleeting reference to tithe on his way to making his REAL point, which has nothing to do with money. What he is TEACHING in that passage is that Christ was typified by Malchisedec. There is nothing stated in that passage that qualifies as instruction to Christians about their financial obligation to the church. To represent it any other way is to willfully deceive.
And without these two passages, Original, what have you left?
NTCC makes tithing an issue of salvation. You cannot deny this. Your church teaches that your very soul is in jeopardy if you do not give 10% of your income to the church. It is not sufficient to give to the poor, the needy, or to some cause that relieves suffering in the world. Your ministers will not allow a church member to enjoy rest or peace in his/her heart unless they are paying tithe (at least.) It is not God that places this demand on the flock of God, it is MAN.
Do you follow a Cadillac driving prosperity preacher, Original? They are a dime a dozen, and they are a disgrace to the gospel. Funny, how they all major on this issue of giving...
Face it, the leaders of your church don't even bother trying to recruit anyone that cannot pay tithe. Your Bible-school students and ministers are taught that it's a "waste of time" to reach out to people who have no money to give.
You can't deny it, because you know in your heart it's true.
NTCC deceives the simple.
(Message edited by justin_other on July 14, 2005) |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
New member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.223.233.130
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 2:35 pm: |
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From justin_other's last post:
"Do you follow a Cadillac driving prosperity preacher, Original? They are a dime a dozen, and they are a disgrace to the gospel. Funny, how they all major on this issue of giving... "
Maybe Original IS a Cadillac driving prosperity preacher, who doesn't relish the prospect of an income reduction once the people figure out that this doctrine is bogus.
Vic |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 193.194.84.198
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Also, see this post:
http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=174955#POST174955 |
imaskingwhy (imaskingwhy)
Junior Member
Username: imaskingwhy
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 80.122.170.166
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 4:33 am: |
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OK, if tithing is a new testamnet command warranting life and death, then who does ntcc tithe to. Think about it, if pastors on the field have to pay "pastors tithe", then who does RW pay tithe to? Or is he exempt from the "command"??? I thought there own rule was that "ALL christians pay tithe". IMASKINGWHY |
blackcat (blackcat)
New member
Username: blackcat
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 216.227.112.18
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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Well now he most likely pays "tithe" to himself or
NTCC. But then again who knows. You know he would never give it to charity or to help some homeless person.
Meow} |
letgodbetrue (letgodbetrue)
New member
Username: letgodbetrue
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 172.161.47.8
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 3:00 pm: |
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Comment
quote:I don't think anyone is saying that tithing is a bad practice or that God won't bless a person for it; the topic is whether or not it is a commandment for believers today and whether or not one is "robbing God" and on his way to hell for not doing so. . .
Response
Yes, I realize that. My purpose with that first post was to lay some groundwork for the "principle" of tithing. I've been watching the posts since then in an effort to compose a thoughtful and fair treatment of the subject. I would like to eliminate bluster and emotion from my comments, which takes a little extra thought sometimes. |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 212.138.47.13
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
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If NTCC presented tithing as a "principle", no one would have a problem with it, Angela. Your quote from Ecclesiastes is a very broad and general admonition toward generosity, and no one should be surprised or offended to hear such things taught in a Christian church; indeed, one would have to wonder about a system of belief that was void of teaching about giving, selflessness, and generosity. It also addresses the notion of a cosmic sort of reciprocity: reaping and sowing. I don't think anyone here has a problem with that. Anyone who is awake spiritually must surely see this principle of reciprocity everywhere, in many different forms. It cannot be reduced to a formula, but I would venture to say that most of us here can see that it is real. Yet all of this is beside the point.
The issue, which no one here can deny, is that tithe is a MAJOR doctrine in NTCC. All of us here know it, and to what degree. Most of us here sent that report out, every Monday night. How many times do you have to fill that report out, before you get the gist of what information matters at Graham HQ? Ministers are TAUGHT in Bible School to repeat the mantra "All Christians pay tithe, and give in offerings," every single time the plate is passed. What is the purpose of this, if not to drill it into the consciousness of the listner? Of ALL the things that COULD be repeated EVERY service, it is a phrase about paying tithe. Every NTCC preacher has felt the pressure put upon them to get their members to pay up, and that pressure rolls downhill to the pew.
You don't see anything amiss, Angela?
It is absolutely inconceivable, to me, that Christ and his Apostles held the same position as NTCC, without it ever being addressed anywhere in the New Testament canon. NTCC claims to be a Bible-based church. We could plaster this thread up and down with pages of scriptures that clearly, plainly declare that the believers in Christ are NOT bound by the law of Moses, yet there is not one clear and authoritative text anywhere to suggest that tithing is an exception.
I've already pointed out, (as if it were necessary,) how the two most commonly abused passages cannot be cited as Biblical support for what they teach. If need be, we can analyze them in more depth; I am confident that my position will only become clearer if we do.
If tithing were essential to salvation, and Jesus said so, how could The Twelve have possibly failed to pass that information on? If what Pastor Davis teaches is THE TRUTH, how could Paul have possibly failed to have addressed it, directly, in any of his letters to the churches? Or Peter, or John? If tithing were the #1 priority for the Christian, then surely the New Testament scriptures would reflect that. But they don't.
Since we know that the Bible does not justify NTCC's hard-line stand on tithing, we are forced to look for another cause; another motive; another reason why. It doesn't take an oracle to figure it out, does it?
If NTCC did NOT teach what they do, the WAY they do, would their cash revenue be greater than, equal to, or less than it is now? If giving were only mentioned in church as often as one might stumble across it in their devotional reading, and tithing was NOT presented as a commandment essential to salvation, would there be any difference, over time, in how much money was given to the church, by the members?
Let's not lose focus by turning this into a general discussion of the blessings of a liberal spirit. We are talking about psychological pressure, deceitful misrepresentation, and blatant legalism. We are talking about the regular use of GUILT and FEAR to coerce people out of more money than they would otherwise give.
I asked a question in another thread, no one answered. If you're giving as unto the Lord, why do you put your name on the envelope? And why do they keep tithing records, and check them? Can't God keep track? |
happy_to_be_freed (happy_to_be_freed)
New member
Username: happy_to_be_freed
Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 65.4.18.11
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
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Hey Doug,
It sure sounds like Original is worried about the offering plate being light in his church. I would not doubt that it is some " Past ( Pass the offering plate) or.
Orginal is obviously someone who does not know what you gave to NTCC. I wonder if Orginal lived in a tent (in ALASKA!!!!) to be able to get a church going? That is just the tip of the iceberg.
It sure seems like that they like to apply the OlD testament to NEW Testament Christians, who are free from the law. It is whatever they want, whatever makes them prosper. I do not Know why they call their church New Testament Christian Church because they apply so much of the Old Testament to the believers. They make alot of the New Testament null and void. I mean come on we can swap wives as much as we want, if she leaves, hey who needs to be reconciled, just get the next one to the wall and marry her, and if the old wife comes back, OH well, you leave, you lose. It seems as if they have taken the practice of multiple wives up, but just one at a time. Divorce, remarry. DIvorce, remarry. Divorce, remarry.
It is alot more than just the tithe issue, it is alot of stuff. They use more of the old testament teachings to push their agenda, than they do new testament teachings, and when they do use it they piece it togther to make it sound like you will be condemned to Hell if you do not do what they say. In the Old Testament the people were under the law of Moses, Now they are under the law of NTCC. |
letgodbetrue (letgodbetrue)
New member
Username: letgodbetrue
Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 172.169.123.118
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 9:28 pm: |
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What can I say that has not already been said and picked apart? But I have committed to “going there” on the subject of tithe, so here I go.
We all know from reading the scriptures that the law was brought into being because of mankind’s penchant and ability to override the conscience. God dealt with man’s heart before the law, but “thou shalt not” was not in power. God had to spell out exactly what sin is – line by line. And we know from scripture that man learned just how sinful he is and how powerless to keep the law blamelessly. Man had to learn that God hates sin and will not tolerate it . . . but because of His love for man, He has made a way of escape.
These are eternal principles. God wanted obedience and faith from man before the law. Abraham found a way to acquire these attributes and it was counted to him for righteousness. King David, though he committed a sin that was punishable by death (there was no sacrifice stipulated in the law that could cover adultery) was allowed to live because he brought the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit before God. Yet David had to live with the ramifications of his actions. God forgave his sin, but the forces David set in motion caused him grief for the rest of his life.
Now, Galatians 3 refers to the Old Testament as our “schoolmaster”. Our teacher the O.T. shows us just how severe is God’s response to particular behaviors and deeds. God made very strong demands and requirements for men – this showed men just how perfect God is, and how imperfect man is. I John 3:4 tells us that whosoever commits sin transgresses the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. I Timothy chapter one tells us that the law was made for those who commit sin (v. 9-10), this is according to the Gospel (v. 11) and Christ came into the world to save sinners (v. 14-16). The dispensation of Grace does not nullify everything in the O.T., but rather fulfills it. Christ’s sacrifice of blood paid for our sins and the Holy Spirit gives us grace to live in a manner that pleases God each and every day. We live by faith in the Son of God (Galatians 2). Romans chapters 5 and 6 tell the story of sin and death, grace and redemption. And Romans 2 expounds on keeping the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.
Of course, we could go on and on in this vein of discussion. The point I am trying to make is that I believe paying tithe is a Christian principle. Tithe is just one of the many requirements in the law (I point this out only because it is the topic of this thread). Yet, Abraham paid tithe 430 years before the law. I believe that Christians are, too, responsible to God in stewardship and payment of tithe. And to not pay tithe is a sin. How much sin can a Christian live in and still go to heaven? At this point we’re moving toward the doctrine of unconditional eternal security. People a lot smarter than me have debated this for centuries and I’m not trying to go there!
Is it right for preachers to say, “All Christians pay tithe,” or say that those who don’t pay tithe are “robbing God”? I am glad I’m not a Pastor! It’s hard enough being a parent – knowing how to teach godliness to my son without destroying his spirit . . . letting him know how much I hate lying, but how much I love him. Have I ever been too strict? I’m sure of it. Have I ever been too lenient? No doubt about it. But does he know I love him? Yes, he does.
I was a member of NTCC for about 11 years. I don’t recall hearing “will a man rob God?” in every service as some have suggested. It seems that the saying “all Christians pay tithe” was put forth most often. It never bothered me. I never felt like I was being abused or asked something too hard. Paying tithe just seems like a fact of Christian life to me. And I always wished I had more money to give.
Many Christian denominations use Malachi chapter 3 and “will a man rob God” as the basis for teaching tithe. Does that make them a cult? I think not. |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.18.11
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
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I do not believe the statement " ALL christians pay tithe is true" To say ALL, that means ALL everyone. That is just not true. I do not believe every christian in the whole world pays tithe. So the statement ALL christians pay tithe is a lie. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 36
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 1:59 pm: |
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The leading "tithing" sects according to an article in Christian Ministry, are interestingly what Evangelicals would term "cults." The Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and the World Wide Church of God are the leading givers. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 37
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
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here is an interesting point made by G.A.
Paul did not Receive Tithes
Paul’s missionary efforts should make it abundantly clear to everyone that the tithe, whether on agricultural products, livestock or 10 per cent of income, is not a New Testament teaching. Of all the New Testament writers, Paul of all people should have been able to use the Old Testament Scriptures to get people to tithe to him so that his expenses would be taken care of. But Paul did not quote a single tithing Scripture to make people give, not one. He most certainly could have, because the Temple and its sacrificial system was still going on during his life-time. But Paul knew only Levites could collect tithes. Paul could have made some Levites his treasurer and then gotten the tithes, but he did no such thing. When he quoted the Old Testament to justify receiving financial help from Christians, he quoted Deuteronomy 25:4, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." (1 Cor. 9:9) He quotes it again in 1 Timothy 5:17,18, "Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads the grain,’ and ‘The laborer is worthy of his wages.’" (The words for double honor in the Greek include monetary remuneration.)
Why didn’t Paul just blast them with some real good strong tithe Scriptures and then throw the Malachi "you are robbing God" thing at them like many preachers do? Because Paul knew the Old Covenant much better than modern preachers do! He knew that there was a new temple, a new priesthood, and new covenant, and a new way of giving—out of the love of Christ in your heart! Just as our Father gave— |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 2:12 pm: |
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Here is another good point from G.A.
Some denominational headquarters even go so far in twisting Scriptures that they say 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 says that church moneys should go to headquarters and then be redistributed.
"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to churches of Galatia, so you must do also: on the first day of the week let each of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem."
Just a little bit of Bible and historical study should show that what Paul was storing up was food for the believers in Jerusalem who were experiencing a famine. Acts 11:27-30 tells us that:
"And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul."
Just a little study into history using Bible dictionaries and chronological charts, we find Claudius Caesar reigning from 41-54 A.D. 1 Corinthians was written, according to scholars at the end of Claudius’ reign. The "collection for the saints" was a voluntary relief program made up of free-will offerings that were to be distributed to other believers in distress! Again, we do not hear the word "tithe." In fact, if one goes to a concordance and looks up the word "tithe" or "tithes," and searches through Paul’s pastoral epistles, letters leaving instruction to church leaders on how to conduct church business, he fails to mention these two words even once! That should tell us something. Furthermore, when one looks at the percentages of the tithe sent to oppressed brothers and sisters in third world nations, one will discover that the tithe-taking churches of today are much less humane than the free-will offering churches of the first century. |
original (original)
Junior Member
Username: original
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 80.148.16.97
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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I'll let God deal with your accusations. None of you are provoking me in any way by your comments about me and who I am. As for me and my house, we will die paying tithe to our Lord. It is the Holy Spirit that made me come to this "realization" some of you speak of. There WAS a time when God winked at the ignorance of men, but there is no excuse for now. God still requires the first fruits. Christ came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. Therefore, not by the law, but by faith I pay tithe fulfilling the law written on my heart.
You say Pastor Davis does not deserve tithe?
(Num 18:21) And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
He built this church. He preached to the thousands. He started the work. What have you done? You all that don't pay tithe at all are the ones paying yourselves.
------------------------------------------------
Examine yourselves:
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Oh, but of all the conversation on this site, of all the men and women claiming to adhere to the Word, why do I see so much disbelief in the Word? If you all believed the Word, you would no doubt obey the Word. You continue to slander and cause divisions and strifes, but not considering your own judgement. Do you believe you all are right standing with each other? How can any of you claim to fulfill a part of the law, yet leave the other part undone? The same God that said thou shall not kill is the same God that said the tenth is MINE.
No, it is not the law that saves, it is faith that saves. I pay tithe out of faith, not out of necessity like some of you have done... this is why you're in a battle about it now. What other issues will you add to this one? |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Chapter 4 of "The Tithing Dilemna"
We now arrive at the real problem regarding the doctrine of tithing. The matter actually has nothing to do with the need to raise funds to support evangelistic and church activities. It ought to be a foregone conclusion that any minister or church organization that is benefiting the Christians they serve ought to be supported (even generously) by those who associate with the organization and love Christ and his teachings. This is especially so if those Christians are being properly edified and educated in the real teachings of the Holy Scriptures. There is nothing wrong in raising funds for Christian activities, but it should be done in accordance with biblical principles, not by misusing the tithing laws of the Bible.
As I am showing in this book, the matter of raising funds for Christian activities is not the problem. It is the method that is being used by ministers and churches to raise those funds that is at issue. It is whether ecclesiastical authorities should use deceptive methods to gain funds (by teaching that church members are obligated to pay the biblical tithe today). Such a method for raising funds is totally counter to biblical teaching. Let’s face it, if ministers or preachers wish to use the biblical tithe, then they ought to follow the biblical directions for its use in a precise way. The trouble is, it is now impossible to put into action the biblical tithe in the way the Bible describes that it should be used. This is where the difficulty arises. We will show in this book just what the laws of the biblical tithe are, and without doubt not one of them is being used by the preachers today in the manner the Bible commands. They simply make up their own minds which way to use the tithe and then they manufacture their own regulations regarding it. This is not using the Bible as a book of direction. It is going absolutely counter to it!
Ministers who teach that God commands Christians to pay the biblical tithe to them or their churches (and citing some scriptural verses on tithing to support their claims) are taking biblical teachings out of context and making God teach something that he has never taught. This tactic is outright deception on the part of those ministers. Sadly, this procedure is being used on a wide scale today and ministers are brazenly showing an attitude of arrogance in regard to this erroneous teaching. It is this reckless application of biblical laws that do not apply to modern Christians that is the difficulty. It is really an attitude problem with the preachers. The wrong attitudes of many ministers on the question of tithing are so engraved in stone that they think nothing of telling Christians that they must pay them the biblical tithe or suffer the consequences of God’s wrath for their so-called "disobedience" to God.
Such teaching is an outrageous example of the misuse (or abuse) of scriptural doctrine. In no way is their teaching correct. There are strict laws that govern and regulate the biblical tithe and these must be obeyed to the letter if one wishes to abide by the biblical revelation that many preachers say they do. The fact is, most of the preachers and priests are not even close to abiding by the tithing laws of the Bible when they exact tithe from their congregations.
What is sad is the fact that most of the preachers know they are taking the teaching of tithing completely out of context in the Bible when they use it to get funds to operate their Christian work. Let us note what their misapplication of Scripture is like, and sadly they usually perform their tasks without the slightest blushing for their transgressions of biblical law.
Look at the example of the commission that God gave to Jonah the Prophet when he was told to go and preach repentance to the Assyrians some nine centuries before the birth of Christ. All the preachers know this story of Jonah and the Fish and the commission God gave to the prophet, and they also know and teach that the particular commission God gave to Jonah pertained to him, and to him alone. Indeed, most preachers would readily censure one of their church members who read the Book of Jonah and applied its precise message to himself today. Let us say a lay person who read Jonah went to a minister and said that God had given him the same commission to preach repentance to the Assyrians in this modern era. The minister would no doubt ask where he got knowledge of this commission and the man would reply that he read it in the Book of Jonah. But the minister would rightly tell the man that God gave that commission only to Jonah almost three thousand years ago. The commission could hardly be repeated today for even the Assyrians to whom Jonah was to preach long ago perished from the earth. There is nothing in the text that would suggest that any modern person could be selected to do the same thing Jonah did (that is, misapplying the commission to himself that God gave to Jonah).
Yes, the minister would be correct in telling the man the error of his ways by taking the teaching of the Book of Jonah out of context and misdirecting it to himself. But, strangely, this is precisely what ministers do when they apply the tithing laws to themselves (and not to the ancient Levites to whom the commission exclusively belonged). It is often claimed by modern preachers that they are the ones who are now doing the work of the Levites. Some claim they are the modern "Levites" (a title they have appropriated to themselves and by their own authority) and that all the teachings about the ancient Levites now pertain (in principle, they say) to modern Christian ministers. It is utter nonsense to claim such a thing. The man who claimed the commission of Jonah was doing the same thing, and it was also wrong.
This flagrant misapplication of the Scriptures by modern Christian ministers concerning the biblical laws of tithing needs to cease. They should give up their erroneous methods (their illegal ways) for gathering monies to themselves to support their religious activities and return to the true biblical manner for Christians to finance their work.
What our modern religious leaders really need to do is to change their attitudes and quit deceiving the people on this matter of tithing. It is really their recklessness in misapplying the laws of the Bible that is at issue. Their flippancy in taking scriptures out of context and erroneously applying them to themselves to support their denominational teachings shows a non-caring attitude to what God has written in his sacred word. Showing such an attitude in regard to the laws of tithing, indicates that they may also do the same thing with other important doctrinal teachings of the Bible. The modern preachers and priests need to abandon this false and slipshod method of using (misusing) the Scriptures and get back to a careful and accurate teaching of the doctrines of God.
Let me make it plain. From the biblical point of view, the ministers are stealing from the Levites the tithe that was designed to go to them (and exclusively to them), and the lay persons who give the ministers the tithe that should be going to the Levites are equally guilty by giving the sacred tithe to the wrong people! This activity is a disrespectful approach to (and a violation of) the laws of God. It shows an attitude of carelessness with the explicit commands of God.
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justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 203.125.88.227
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
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Angela, I think it is commendable for you live according your convictions. It is not commendable, however, that you condemn the innocent. We cannot put ourselves in the place of God, judging and condemning where he has not judged and condemned. This, in my opinion, is infinitely worse than failure to pay tithe. Ironically, this is EXACTLY what Jesus was addressing in his "Weightier Matters" monologue.
Your argument could just as easily be applied to Sabbath-keeping as tithing. Or circumcision. Many in the early church saw these, (among other things,) as "eternal principles", and they also took your position and condemned their brethren who didn't share their convictions. Perhaps a review of Romans 14 is in order.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I respect you for acknowledging that you do what you do as a matter of principle, regardless of chapter-and-verse. If anything at all, that is the way it should be. (However, this is not the position of NTCC.) I'm afraid I can't own your belief that "to not pay tithe is a sin".
As a matter of PRINCIPLE, I think it brings out the worst in everyone to say such things; both in he that speaks, and in he that hears. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 40
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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posted by original:
God still requires the first fruits. Christ came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. Therefore, not by the law, but by faith I pay tithe fulfilling the law written on my heart.
You say Pastor Davis does not deserve tithe?
(Num 18:21) And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Origianl,
Is RW Davis a Levite; does he serve the tabernacle/temple? Quote from above post(The Tithing Dilemma)(Sorry for the typo greg_s):
Let’s face it, if ministers or preachers wish to use the biblical tithe, then they ought to follow the biblical directions for its use in a precise way. The trouble is, it is now impossible to put into action the biblical tithe in the way the Bible describes that it should be used. This is where the difficulty arises.
Keep posting original |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.18.11
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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"He built this church. He preached to the thousands. He started the work. What have you done? You all that don't pay tithe at all are the ones paying yourselves. " Posted by Original
So what happened to God? Isn't it what God has done? I guess it does'nt matter what God has done does it? |
jdn10305 (jdn10305)
Member
Username: jdn10305
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.118.132.120
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
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Greg,
These posts are extremely long, and I would be surprised if anyone reads them. Please, either shorten the messages or don't post at all. |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 168.10.27.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:09 pm: |
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Greg, please don't force us to argue with your bookshelf. You're spamming the board with your copy-&-paste.
I say this as a friend, realizing that many of you within NTCC are boxed into your own little society, and don't have a good feel for where you are in an open forum on the internet.
Your rhetoric is outstripping your reason by a wide margin, brother. You are in over your head. |
the_buck_stops_here (the_buck_stops_here)
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Username: the_buck_stops_here
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:22 pm: |
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Rightly dividing the Word of God is so very important. Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to Jews who were still under the law. Jesus' death on the cross began a new dispensation, friends. Don't you find it interesting that the Apostle Paul would use such vague references to tithe, when speaking to gentiles? They had no concept of the Jew's Levitical laws. There would need to be a great deal of explaining done. I am sure that if that if your salvation could be lost for not paying tithe there would have been quite a bit more time spent on the subject. Why did Paul say to the Corinthians that he robbed other churches by not taking offerings from them, if he were receiving all the tithe? Wouldn't he have had plenty to survive on? Wouldn't that have been sufficent? Was he allowing them to not pay tithe? You have to look at the whole Bible, friends. Tithing is a great principle for a Christian, a guideline for giving. Actually, God might put it on your heart to give more. Especially, with all the needs around the world. Why not help people who have a sincere need for food, clothing, the bare neccessities of life. Do you realize that there are brothers and sisters in Christ that are starving to death around the world, who are oppressed and without hope (other than Christ)? Yet the American arm of the God's church merely says, "Be ye warmed and filled." We are accountable because we have so very much!
I have researched this subject of tithe and found it quite interesting that Jews no longer pay tithe.Why? There is no service at the temple friend! The Levites are employed else where. It would be considered a sin to "pay tithe" at a synagogue!
If Paul taught Jews to give tithe to the Christian church, be sure that the crowd that awaited him in Jerusalem would have mentioned that right along with defaming the temple by bringing in gentiles!!
Any one can pull the Bible out of context and use it to prove their point. Look at it context, being well informed of the historical background and customs. Do you realize that the Jews never paid tithe in money? The Levites got food. The "will a man rob God" scripture has more reference to the "priests" of the day. Take a look read the whole thing! Don't just regurgitate scripture that you've been taught. Think for yourself- come to God with a sincere heart seeking truth and direction. Do what he wants you to do. Be a cheerful giver, not a "do this or be punished by God type giver." |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
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Justin_other
I would have to say that greg_s must have left ntcc and gone with HOP; when I read the thread NTCC/exNTCC TEXTBOOK something just clicked.
Doug |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 42
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 8:07 pm: |
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posted by greg_s
Tithing Before the Law of Moses:
It was practiced 430 years before the law (Gen. 14:20; 28:22; Heb. 7:1-11). But, is not the reason all Christians pay tithe. These references are given to show that Abraham tithed. Jesus commanded that the Christian would do what Abraham did. (John 8:39) (Abraham did a lot of other things but this abbreviated study is about tithe.)
Greg,
Was Abraham tithing on his increase? Is there any mention of Abraham anywhere else tithing on his increases?
Doug |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 43
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
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posted by greg_s
Why all Christians pay tithe:
1. Christ taught it
Greg,
Where would Christ have taught people to take their tithe? And to whom would he have instructed the tithe to be given? Did Jesus pay tithe when he worked for a living?
Doug |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
New member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.230.85.52
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 7:40 am: |
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Yes Greg, the Bible does mean what it says. When it says that the handwriting of ordinances that was against us was blotted out, taken out of the way, and nailed to his cross, that's what it means. When it says that the law was abolished, it means exactly that. And when the Bible warns us against being entangled again in the yoke of bondage, perhaps it would behoove us to take heed. You are acting like one of this modern breed of judges who somehow can find myriad fascinating and hitherto undiscovered rights lurking somewhere between the lines in the constitution. Admit it, the scriptural case for Christians being required to tithe is so strained and weak it might as well be nonexistent. Are you the kind of person that has to be forced to give to God under threat of eternal hell fire? I give because I love God and want to bless and help others. Enriching those whom often qualify as mere human parasites (I know, there are exceptions) isn't my idea of good stewardship.
Vic Johanson |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:55 pm: |
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posted by greg:
We will stop here in the interest of being short on explanation but also short on scripture. The fact is; there is great depth of teaching on the subject of tithe in the New Testament. But, Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 are enough with Matthew 28:18-20 it’s more than enough. According to the Bible Tithe is for New Testament believers.
Greg,
These are not Scriptures to be used for New Covenant/Testament Christians that it is a commandment. You need to answer the questions: Where would Christ have taught people to take their tithe? And to whom would he have instructed the tithe to be given? Did Jesus pay tithe when he worked for a living?
Doug |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 212.199.249.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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Again, Greg copies-n-pastes five pages of stunning non-sequiturs for his audience.
The futility of his position is surely evident, at this point. He seems to have no grasp of logic or reason, nor of sound Biblical exegesis, concluding one thing from another according to an illogical process, and he is obviously not listening, choosing rather to copy and paste arguments that have already been thoroughly refuted.
There is a sense, however, in which I'm glad that people like Greg are contributing to these threads, because there are thousands of people reading this, before whom the errors of NTCC are coming clearly into focus. |
justin_other (justin_other)
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Username: justin_other
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 212.199.249.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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I never had a problem with tithing until I had to start teaching it to others. It was at that point that my conscience began to be troubled, because I knew deep down inside that the claims I made, as I stood in that pulpit, were not true. Rhetorically, I could make it sound plausible, and even right. I toed the organizational line as long as I could. I can't recall whether I actually used the "God-robber" phrase, but it is entirely possible that I may have. As an NTCC minister, I taught their doctrine. I bought into it when I was young and naive, and even when I did begin to have qualms, I did not have the strength or the self confidence to take a stand against my peers and my leaders.
Could you imagine me sitting at a fellowship table, and saying, "You know what, guys? I don't think tithe is as Biblical as we all make it out to be." Those of you who know the organizational culture of NTCC know exactly how that would have turned out.
God knows exactly what I am willing to give, (i.e., EVERYTHING) when I am convinced that it is the right thing to do. I reversed my position for no other reason than straightforward intellectual honesty: there is NO New Testament command to pay tithe, period. It is WRONG to twist and misrepresent the scriptures in order to raise revenue for the church. It is manipulative and deceitful.
The love of money is the root of this evil. NTCC ministers are the ones who need to tend to the WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW: JUSTICE, MERCY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD. Tithing on your tax refund is worthless, when you can stand in the pulpit and LIE in the name of God. Tithing on a free lunch means nothing, while you are yet willing to exploit and decieve and condemn the innocent. |
imaskingwhy (imaskingwhy)
Junior Member
Username: imaskingwhy
Post Number: 41
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.58.96.114
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
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Very well said Justin. I am the one who was accused of "Robbing God" on the first post of this thread. In a nutshell I did question Rev. Olson on why we as local churches paid tithe to the org. when the local church needed it. We were having financial difficulty in getting this church off the ground. So I simply said "Sir I have some questions on tithe and why this organizational structure demands it". This next thing I know I'm "leaving God because I didn't want to pay my tithe". They were wrong, however, right about not wanting to PAY my tithe to them anymore. I also began to study the issue in light of New testament scripture and found that there was no foundation to have tithe represented in and Old testament format. Do I give? sure I do, and gladly so. But man was it a relief to get out from under that legalism in giving. So those of you who want to "PAY" your tithe go right ahead, but I challenge you to stop for a while and see if the reaction from ntcc is more like that of a club, where if you don't pay your dues, your now Doo Doo.
Bryan David Hill |
the_buck_stops_here (the_buck_stops_here)
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Username: the_buck_stops_here
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 9:07 pm: |
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I just love it when people try to use the text in Hebrews to say that Christians must pay tithe. The whole purpose of the letter to the Hebrews was showing that Jesus was better than anything that they had under the law.
Show me one reference from the New Testament where Gospel Preachers are referred to as the priesthood. Jesus is the only priesthood that we need. Christians in general are a "royal priesthood, a chosen generation." This doesn't mean that the Gospel preacher gets to preach and live off of tithe. We are made kings and priests unto God, but again this refers to every single Christian. It was not meant that others would lord over us. Greg, I am afraid that your "position of strength" is only in your mind. You are so full of "progaganda" that you are incapable of studying the Word of God without trying to reinforce the doctrines that you have been taught. |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 135
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.237.154
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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"this dosn't mean that the Gospel preacher gets to preach and live off of tithe".
Well, let's look at what Paul has to say:
"Even so the Lord has commandedthat those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:14 (NKJ)
Paul is saying that it is God's idea for full time ministers to receive a salary from the ministry. This is the contect of the passage.
In verse 13 he makes a reference to the priests living off from the tithes in the temple. In verses 15-18 Paul explains why he has chosen not to receive anything from the church at Corinth; he has given up his God given right.
Your comment is not correct according to the text. |
justin_other (justin_other)
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Username: justin_other
Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 213.42.2.26
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:53 am: |
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Obviously the church must be supported by its constituency. And the flock of God will support those who have the gift - and obligatory cross - of ministering the word. Because Davis is a mistrustful person by nature, and always seems to assume the worst in other people, (as evidenced by the intrusive level of control he exherts over his Organization,) he doesn't think people will give unless under obligation, and even threat. However, there are many large and thriving churches that teach what some of us here have maintained: that the members should be left to give as they are willing and able. No pressure, no manipulation, no constant reminders; and the needs of these churches are above and beyond met. This is verifiable to anyone who cares to know the certainty of it. Therefore things can be as God ordained - that the ministry live off the gospel - without it being necessary to make a universal and obligitory demand of tithe.
Paul was also an Apostle. (ahem)
A minister that is claiming to preach the Lord's gospel should also, hopefully, have enough scruples to live the Lord's lifestyle, which appears to have been simple, so as not to be a burden to those that care for him.
This whole issue illustrates NTCC's errant emphasis on controlling behavior with law, rather than nourishing the spirit with truth and love, so that it may flower.
You still haven't come close to addressing what it is that NTCC actually teaches, which is that ONE TENTH is OWED and PAID by EVERY Christian in OBEDIENCE to a COMMANDMENT, and that it is a damning SIN not to.
Tell me exactly how the salary structure of NTCC works, Bear.
(Message edited by justin_other on July 21, 2005) |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 138
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.144.127.200
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
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I do not have any idea, for I am, and never have been, a member of any NTCC.
I disagree that a minister needs to live simple; just get by. There is not any scriptural evidence to support that claim, only opinions.
In one church I received a salary of $50,000. In another, $40,000. I will tell you that does not go very far when you have kids, a house payment, etc.
Usually people who claim that a minister must live on scraps, or just get by, is not a minister themselves. I do not see any evidence that Jesus was a dirt poor person. Just because he lived a simple life does not mean that he was hurting for cash.
He worked for many years as a carpenter. I am sure by natural atrition that he was able to make a good living.
Jesus was not a rich person, as some claim, but he was not a dirt poor vagabond either. |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 20
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 202.79.204.98
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 1:34 pm: |
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I was just about to post this:
It occurred to me this morning that Bear may not be a member of NTCC, judging by his rational and even-handed tone. Thus, the last line in my previous post may be misdirected.
But, I don't have to, now. =)
* * * * *
TBSH, your statement (addressed by Bear) was either very poorly worded, or simply incorrect. That's not the position that I and several others have been maintaining.
My point is best summed up by a couple of paragraphs from a book excerpt that Doug posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 5:11 pm:
quote:We now arrive at the real problem regarding the doctrine of tithing. The matter actually has nothing to do with the need to raise funds to support evangelistic and church activities. It ought to be a foregone conclusion that any minister or church organization that is benefiting the Christians they serve ought to be supported (even generously) by those who associate with the organization and love Christ and his teachings. This is especially so if those Christians are being properly edified and educated in the real teachings of the Holy Scriptures. There is nothing wrong in raising funds for Christian activities, but it should be done in accordance with biblical principles, not by misusing the tithing laws of the Bible.
As I am showing in this book, the matter of raising funds for Christian activities is not the problem. It is the method that is being used by ministers and churches to raise those funds that is at issue. It is whether ecclesiastical authorities should use deceptive methods to gain funds (by teaching that church members are obligated to pay the biblical tithe today).
The issue is what Pastor Davis actually teaches, using lines like “I don’t want to be 10% too heavy when the rapture happens,” or pronouncing curses upon those who don’t pay tithe, such as “God’s going to get his money one way or another,” implying that bad things are going to happen that will cost you money, because you didn’t obey the command to tithe. This approach is not only indefensible from the scriptures, it is grossly manipulative. In my opinion, this crosses the line from error into sin.
* * * * *
Added to the discussion of "simplicity":
In 1 Cor 9, Bear, Paul makes a big deal of NOT wanting to be a financial burden on the church. I don't think it is misguided to suppose that his successors, being of the same spirit, would have the same attitude. I did NOT state nor imply that it is the job of the church to keep the minister poor, neither that God's minister should "live on scraps". In a healthy church, people love their Pastor, and want to see him taken care of.
"But godliness with contentment is great gain.
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
1 Timothy 6:6-10
It's not a job, it's a calling, and the one with the gift responds whether it pays or not. Paul said that was true of himself, and it hardly applies less to us today. |
greg_s (greg_s)
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Username: greg_s
Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 203.236.95.169
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
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TITLE: The Doctrine of “Tithing” (REVISED 25 July 2005! FOR EVEN MORE CLARITY!) So now tithe is even more difficult to misunderstand! But, also, more easily understood!
(Do “All Christians Pay Tithe and Give Offerings?”)
INTRODUCTION: “Let’s Play Again!” Or “Content Trumps Strategy!”
Realize that as a Christian you operate from a position of strength. The Christian worker is equal to the task because God’s word is equal to the task.
I would like to share a story from my own life to illustrate the point of this piece. When I was a teenager and would play Chess with my Dad, he always played me without his Queen and sometimes without one Bishop or Rook also. I never won. I was in the Chess Club at school, read books on Chess, studied past matches of Chess Masters, and could beat many people at Chess. Still I never won. To this day I haven’t beaten my Dad at Chess. My Dad operated from a position of strength. He knew that, I knew that, yet I kept trying. Even if I cheated (I would move pieces when he left the room, when he came back he would just put the pieces back where they were, because he had the board memorized) He could tell when something was out of place, when something was wrong.
That is how it is with the Christian. Because of the depth of the Bible, the Bible can be taught with half, even three-quarters or more of its verses tied behind its back. There are always objections when the Bible is taught. This doesn’t apply, nor that, this or that is taken out of context. In some instances that is true. Some people in teaching the word of God wrest scripture. But that is not always the case. It is not wrong to understand the word of God as written. The Bible was written simply, to be understood by all. The Bible is also intellectually challenging. Not a contradiction, just a fact. My degree is not in physics but I enjoy reading books about physics because the author makes the complex interesting and understandable yet intellectually challenging. Yet God is smarter that any man.
It has been my habit of late to be leery of the “long on explanation, short on scripture” teaching. Does the Bible mean what it says or not? There is danger in listening to what others say the Bible says if one doesn’t keep in mind what the Bible says. The admonition has always been “Know what you believe”. And what the Christian believes is what is written.
Years ago when teaching a subject from the word of God I would often start in the Old Testament and work my way through the New Testament. But I have changed that. There is an anti-Old Testament atmosphere that exists in the church. So now when teaching the word of God I teach the New Testament first and some times only. Only making reference to the Old Testament if mentioning it at all. But because we are teaching the Bible that is no handicap. Christians don’t base any doctrine on the Old Testament only. The Bible is a book that beats people at their own game, when necessary. (i.e. You want to exclude these verses, o.k. what about these? No, well how about these over here? They are saying the same thing. et al) What are the rules? What limitations/handicaps do you want to place on the teaching of scripture? Only shoot left handed, play flat footed, no Queen or Rook, bat one-handed? No problem. The Christian can adjust to the objections because we operate from the position of strength. There is enough depth to the Word of God to entertain such requests. Enough to meet objections to application of the word of God to the individual. You don’t like John’s teaching? How about Paul’s? No, well here is what Jesus says. Still not enough? Well I guess you won, let’s play again.
The Bible is The Book that when all is said and done it comes down to “Are we going to do what is written in the Bible?” or do we “Explain it away and re-writing it in our own image and likeness?”
The Doctrine of “Tithing”
(Do “All Christians Pay Tithe and Give Offerings?”)
A personal rule, which has served me well over the years to verify things that are taught, is: When Bible is being used to support a belief does the Bible say what it is being presented as saying when just the verses are considered? (Realizing the need for Hebrew, Greek, and English dictionaries and keeping in mind context.)
Do the following verses teach “All Christians Pay Tithe (…)?”
THREE (1, 2, and 3) CLEAR, INDEPENDENT, COMPLETE REASONS WHY “All Christians Pay Tithe”: (In other words; easy to understand, not easily misunderstood.)
REASON 1. Because the Pharisees (who were not agriculturists) paid tithe: (NOTE: The below verses are in chronological order. For the Gospels that means the actual time line of Jesus ministry, for the Epistles that means when they were penned.)
Matthew 5:20 (KJV) (Jesus teaching the disciples, Jews and Gentiles; see Matthew 5:1)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (written 37 a.d.)
Mark 9:7 (KJV) (God speaking to Peter, James and John; see also Luke 9:35)
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. (written 57-63 a.d.)
Luke 16:16 (KJV) (Jesus teaching the disciples; see Luke 16:1. see also Matthew 11:13)
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (written 58-63 a.d.)
NOTE: John had already come and gone by the time of Christ teaching Luke 16:16 above (see also Matthew 11:13). John’s public ministry started in Matthew 3:1; Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; and John 1:15. Matthew 11:13 and Luke 16:16 places all of Christ’s teaching firmly within the New Testament. The Gospels are not a part of the Old Testament in any way. Jesus’ public ministry did not start until after John’s had. The dispensation of grace started as soon as John’s public ministry started. The Pharisees and others didn’t believe Jesus was Messiah. But they were being taught by Messiah, just as we are today. Belief does not dictate legality of the message, the source validates the message. It’s still God said it, that settles it. Agreement is irrelevant. (Realizing the need for Hebrew, Greek, and English dictionaries and keeping in mind context.) (Easy to understand. Not easily misunderstood.)
Matthew 23:23 (KJV) (Jesus teaching the disciples, Jews and Gentiles; see Matthew 23:1)
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (written 37 a.d.)
Luke 11:42 (KJV) (Jesus teaching Pharisees and Lawyers, see result; Luke 11:53-54)
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (written 58-63 a.d.)
Luke 18:11-12 (KJV) (Jesus teaching the disciples; see Luke 17:22)
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (written 58-63 a.d.)
REASON 2. Because Abraham (who had no church or pastor) paid tithe: (NOTE: The below verses are in chronological order. For the Gospels that means the actual time line of Jesus ministry, for the Epistles that means when they were penned.)
Fun FACT: The temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. which fact Jesus knew. See Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6, 24.
John 8:31 (KJV) (Jesus teaching in the treasury, where anyone, including Gentiles, could bring cash into the Temple complex, or just hang out. see John 8:20)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (written 90 a.d.)
John 8:37-40 (KJV) (Jesus teaching in the treasury, where anyone, including Gentiles, could bring cash into the Temple complex, or just hang out. see John 8:20)
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (written 90 a.d.)
Matthew 17:5 (KJV) (God speaking to Peter, James and John)
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (written 37 a.d.)
Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) (Jesus teaching the disciples, see Matthew 28:17)
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (written 37 a.d.)
NOTE: The reason tithing is taught in Christian churches to Christians is not to raise funds but because of verses like Matthew 28:20 above, and II Timothy 3:16-17. The same logic applies to Matthew 28:19 above. The reason we baptize is because Jesus commanded it not as an excuse to get people wet.
James 2:20-26 (KJV) (written to the Jews; see James 1:1)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (written 45 a.d.)
Galatians 3:26-29 (KJV) (written to churches in Galatia; see Galatians 1:1)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (written 68 a.d.)
Hebrews 7:1-4 (KJV) (I assume written to Jews)
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. (written 68 a.d.)
NOTE: Abrahams tithing wasn’t tied to the tabernacle/temple in any way. He tithed before the law and the tabernacle/temple. But the people and priesthood’s tithe, who were under the law, was tied to Abraham (as ours is) as seen in Hebrews 7:7-12. The Levites are connected to Abraham by progeny, we are connected to Abraham by the new birth. (Easy to understand. Not easily misunderstood.)
REASON 3. Because the Levites and the other tribes paid tithe: (NOTE: The below verses are in chronological order. For the Gospels that means the actual time line of Jesus ministry, for the Epistles that means when they were penned.)
1 Peter 2:5 (KJV) (written to the elect in Asia)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (written 60 a.d.)
1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) (written to the elect in Asia)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (written 60 a.d.)
Hebrews 7:7-12 (KJV) (I assume written to Jews)
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (written 68 a.d.)
Again NOTE: Abrahams tithing wasn’t tied to the tabernacle/temple in any way. He tithed before the law and the tabernacle/temple. But the people and priesthood’s tithe, who were under the law, was tied to Abraham (as ours is) as seen in Hebrews 7:7-12. The Levites are connected to Abraham by progeny, we are connected to Abraham by the new birth. (Easy to understand. Not easily misunderstood.)
There are still more verses that apply to “All Christians pay tithe”. Including when to pay, where to pay, what attitude to have concerning tithing, what is to be done with the tithe, tithe on net or gross. Some of which is found in the Old Testament. For what a Christian is required to do we only have to look to the New Testament. But for more complete understanding and to see the origin of things (i.e. sacrifice, tithe, atonement, et al), in other words adding more depth of understanding, we also look to the old. But as has been shown tithe is in the New Testament therefore for us today. Tithing is a major, clear New Testament teaching, not easily misunderstood.
Two other facts to keep in mind when studying the Bible:
(a) the Bible never contradicts itself. If that ever appears to be the case either the understanding is wrong or the scriptures are being wrested. Our conclusions (understanding) of the Bible must harmonize with all other portion of scripture. New Testament does not cancel New Testament. Theology is not Algebra. We are not solving for y, y being whatever is desired.
(b) Thousands of proof texts are not needed to know what God requires. Hundreds of proof texts are not needed. Ten are not necessary. Five is more than what’s needed.
CONCLUSION:
Three (1, 2, and 3) Clear, Independent, Complete Proofs that “All Christians Pay Tithe.” (Encapsulated from above)
Clear, Independent, Complete Proof # 1: Matthew 5:20; Mark 9:7; Luke 16:16; Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42 and Luke 8:11-12. (Easy to understand. Not easily misunderstood.)
Clear, Independent, Complete Proof # 2: John 8:31; John 8:37-40; Matthew 17:5; Matthew 28:18-20; James 2:20-26; Galatians 3:26-29 and Hebrews 7:1-4. (Easy to understand. Not easily misunderstood.)
Clear, Independent, Complete Proof # 3: I Peter 2:5 and I Peter 2:9, Hebrews 7:7-12. (Easy to understand. Not easily misunderstood.)
NOTE: All the above verses, being in harmony, can be put together to form one partial Bible study on tithe from the New Testament only. In addition to tithe, many other verses in the New Testament deal with offerings and support of the ministry. For the Christian it's still a matter of rules and money. As has been shown, “All Christians Pay Tithe” is not tied to the Temple, a vocation, nationality, church, pastor or dispensation. (The usual objections) It’s tied to Christ’s teachings in the Gospels and the disciples’ teaching’s in the epistles. It’s tied to being what God intends, a Christian.
Also, it should be noted that none of the New Testament was penned before 37 a.d. So we see that God had not changed his mind on any of Christ’s teachings between 30 a.d. (Matthew 3:1) and 37 a.d. (John 14:26 applies). In addition, after 41 a.d. the disciples knew (God already knew) that the Gentiles were to be part of the church because of what happened in Acts 10:34-48 (written 63 a.d.). But God’s intent is seen in Genesis 12:3 and we see in the Gospels Christ had already started ministering to the gentiles and teaching the gentiles about, among many other things, tithe.
One should also note that the Holy Ghost was selective (of coarse) in what is presented in the New Testament, (see John 21:24-25) only presenting necessary things.
In the Gospels Christ teaches about things that are taught in the rest of the New Testament; Grace, love, forgiveness, works, sanctification, tithe, offerings, evangelism, Holy Ghost baptism, fornication, water baptism, lasciviousness, prophesy, et al. One exception to this is what’s contained in Acts 15:29 and Acts 21:25 regarding diet. (That’s why I no longer eat rare steaks; because the Bible tells me so.) Question: If God hadn’t mentioned fornication in Acts 15 and 21 would there be gentiles saying, “What’s the problem? The burger I ate after sex with my girlfriend was well done!?” So although diet became an issue because of confusion generated by those who had left the church and wanted to harm the church, God nipped that in the bud by adding it to the Bible. Acts 15 and 21 are not the only time God adjusted the word to the circumstances. For one more example see Matthew 19:8 and Mark 10:5.
Keeping I Corinthians 15:3 in mind, Christ taught tithing when Gentiles and Jews were present knowing the temple was going to be destroyed and Gentiles were to be part of the church. Also, the Holy Ghost included in the Bible; tithe being taught by Jesus and used Abraham as an example for the believer.
When Christ and the disciples teach on tithe there is no appealing to the law for justification, but to the actions in and of themselves as a practice to be followed. In other words, appealing to the works of the Pharisees and Abraham as the example to be followed. If we do the works of Abraham we will (among other things) tithe, if we do the works of the Pharisees we will (among other things) tithe. Both are used as an example. But, even when considered separately we are still being told to tithe.
So what do we learn from Abrahams works? The Bible tells us as a Christians we must do the works of Abraham. Does it make sense that Abraham would be used as an example for the New Testament believer? What follows are some of the lessons learned from Abraham’s life: Go when God calls (Genesis 12:4), prefer your brother (Genesis 13:9), help your brother when he’s in trouble (Genesis 14:14), an example of Holy Communion (Genesis 14:18), tithe when God blesses you (Genesis 14:20), be diligent in your service to God (Genesis 15:11), don’t help God (Genesis 16:2), don’t change or interpret what God says (Genesis 16:2), circumcise your children (Genesis 17:11), God is moved to mercy by our prayers (Genesis 18:32), be totally honest, don’t tell partial truths (Genesis 20:2), have patience; sometimes answers to prayer take a while (Genesis 21:2), God will test us, but we must have faith (Genesis 22:5), God can bless in all things (Genesis 24:1), only marry other Christians (Genesis 24:4). This list of lessons from Abraham’s life is not exhaustive, just a little from each chapter. We see in Abraham’s life solid New Testament teaching. We don’t circumcise because the New Testament tells us not to circumcise. (I Corinthians 7:18-19) We don’t have that same justification with regard to tithe. Excluding tithe from the New Testament is a doctrine of men, not based on the Bible in any way, as has been repeatedly shown in this study.
What do we learn from the Pharisees works? The Bible tells us that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, we won’t enter into the kingdom of heaven. Does it make sense that Pharisees would be used as an example for the New Testament believer? What follows are some lessons from Pharisee life: Be meticulous in tithe (i.e. crops and gifts; if you get an apple off a tree, if someone gives you a $200 watch pay tithe on it, Matthew 23:23) Don’t be an extortioner, unjust, an adulterer or a sinner. Fast twice per week. Tithe of all your possessions (i.e. Not just gifts, not just crops, Luke 18:11-12) We see in Pharisee life solid New Testament teaching. Fasting is presented in Matthew 17:14-21, I Corinthians 7:5, Matthew 6:16-18 and other places in the New Testament, as a tool used for specific purposes, not the ritual observed by the Pharisee.
Many Christians round up their tithe. This way if they get a gift, unless it’s a new house or car, it’s already covered. (Homemade clothes and homemade food would probably be covered also, depending on the amount.)There are people that tithe to the penny, but they have more to keep track of.
John 14:26 (KJV) (Christ teaching the disciples)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (written 90 a.d.)
“All Christians Pay Tithe and Give Offerings.”
Score keeper: Please give credit for four and one-half (counting the conclusion), separate studies from the New Testament regarding tithe with this one post.
Let’s play again.
(Message edited by Greg_s on July 25, 2005) |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.10.61
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
|
I really think Greg S who I think is SHEPHARD, but anyhow, I think he is either trying to be a pastor and is scared to death that one of his church memebers might read this and see that they have no " PAY TITHE OR GO TO HELL ' doctrine to be bound to, and will stop padding his pockets.
Sure the minister should live off the church, we should bring them food, make them clothes, and build them a house to dwell in. WHY money and only money? I know of one family that bought the preacher clothes ( because it was apparent that he and his family needed some) he used his tithe and bought the preacher clothes. Was this wrong? I do not believe so, it went to the preacher, just not the form of green cash. This man was " jacked up" for doing this. Why? WHY?
What was tithe in the Bible? What did people bring, only money? If I grew food could I bring 10% of my crop in for tithe? Would that be a "ACCEPTABLE" tithe?
BTW, " All Christians Pay Tithe " statement still is not true!! You mean to tell me that someone who has no pastor in the middle of Africa, who God has dealt with their heart and they pray and get saved, because we know that nature itself bears witness of the glory of God, so this indeed can happen. Anyhow this man prays and gets saved, he has increases, his herd grows, his field flourishes, he loves God, worships Him with clean hands and a pure heart... But he does not have a church or a Pastor, who does he pay tithe to? He does'nt. Is he on his way to Hell because he did not pad your pockets? NO!!! SO you see the statement " ALL Christians pay tithe is not true!!! |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
|
greg_s posted:
Fun FACTNet fact: The temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. which fact Jesus knew. See Matthew 24:1-2; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 21:5-6, 24.
John 8:31 (KJV) (Jesus teaching in the treasury, where anyone, including Gentiles, could bring cash into the Temple complex, or just hang out. see John 8:20)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (written 90 a.d.)
Greg,
What is your point on the truth that something Jesus said was written after the destruction of the destruction of the temple? It seems you are trying to make the point that because Jesus knew his words would be written after the destruction of the temple then his statements regarding the tithing laws of Israel would apply to Christians after the destruction of the temple. Is this your point?
Greg, it seems that the Word of God is more like your dad in the infamous chess matches.
Doug |
justin_other (justin_other)
New member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 202.79.204.98
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 7:32 pm: |
|
Greg has lost credibility, I'm afraid... I'm just scrolling past his posts, now.
If he left with HOP, as you say, Doug, I wonder if he's trolling FACTNet with a PURPOSE of making NTCC look bad. I don't know. |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 141
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.234.67
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
|
Free,
Modern day equiv's must be put into place. A farmer today sells his crops for CASH. Don't be ignorant just to prove a point.
Pastors should receive a salary from the church. Period! |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.10.61
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 8:45 pm: |
|
Bear,
So you are telling me someone in Africa sells their crops for money, do you know anyone from Africa? That has lived there recently? Well I do, and I can tell you that they share their crops, they share their kills in the village, so get with it. So is their way of life ignorant? No, it is not!! But rather the one that does not think people live that way!!
Let me ask you this, can you honestly say in your heart that you would go to this village and preach and love these people if no salary of green cash was involved? By your post I do not believe that you would, because what they have to offer you would not pad your pockets and put gas in your Caddy!!
And since modern day equiv's should be put into place then I guess that stands true for everything else in the Bible too, right?
A salary = A HIRELING and a hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 9:20 pm: |
|
posted by greg_s
1 Peter 2:5 (KJV) (written to the elect in Asia)
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (written 60 a.d.)
1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) (written to the elect in Asia)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (written 60 a.d.)
Greg,
What is you point here? Are you trying to justify gospel preachers as being some type of Levitical priesthood so they can justify utilizing Malachi chapter three to call people God robbers?
Doug |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
|
posted by greg_s
Even if I cheated (I would move pieces when he left the room, when he came back he would just put the pieces back where they were, because he had the board memorized) He could tell when something was out of place, when something was wrong.
That is how it is with the Christian. Because of the depth of the Bible, the Bible can be taught with half, even three-quarters or more of its verses tied behind its back. There are always objections when the Bible is taught. This doesn’t apply, nor that, this or that is taken out of context
Greg,
It appears that you are the one who is still moving the pieces around. I truly believe that as people read this post that they will see, as your dad did when something is out of place, when something is wrong.
If the teaching that tithing is a commandment for a Christian is so easily taught with "even three-quarters or more of its verses tied behind its back," why are you constanting having to search for new moves, tatics, obscure ideas that do not make sense?
I, as the Christian in the position of strength am up to the task.
Doug |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 143
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.165.235.254
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 1:58 am: |
|
Free,
Actually, I have known, and still know, several people from Africa; what is your point? We live in the USA, and our standard is different. You are comparing apples to bannana's. Also, I drive a dodge.
My point is about giving. It is not true, in any sense, that a pastor who gets paid is a hireling, and that they do not care for the sheep. A pastor, who works in the ministry full time, needs to get paid. I am not talking about those who abuse church funds; they are the exception and not the rule.
Full time ministry takes more than 40 hours a week, and it is tough. Pastors should not have to always shop at Goodwill, and have foodstamps to stay afloat. If a pastor chooses to work another Job, great! However, long term, it will hurt his ministry, because his time will be limited.
Many believe that pastors need to be poor; they believe that it is a sign of holiness. Well. poverty is not a sign of holiness anymore than wealth.
Do you know me? No. DO you know what I do in ministry, or have done? No. Please do not assume. It is clear that you have not served in a full time church position, otherwise your mindset would be different.
I have been paid in ministry, but I am in a church now where I do not receive any cash. You have the wrong view of me.
I realize that the tone of your post was due to the fact that I stated your reasoning was ignorant. That was not personal, but based on your post. |
bigboy (bigboy)
Member
Username: bigboy
Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 214.13.160.214
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
|
Let's see here, question? Has any of this debate changed anyones mind? Some say tithe others say do not tithe. What's it going to be? If you believe that 10% belongs to the Lord then why argue over his money, let him do it. If you believe that the money is yours to give freely as you choose then why argue with someone else about your money. After all when you do give it away it is no longer yours but Gods. So either way God gets what he wants/needs from tithe payers and free will givers. Either show a definite without a doubt pay 10% of your INCOME (translated from increase by greed)in the new testament from Christ or one of his apostles speaking on behalf of the Lord and not as they see fit and get it over with already. |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.10.61
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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Bear,
My point was that what we say ought to be true. And you obviously do not know me or what we have done in the "ministry" so you ought not to assume anything either.
I have seen Pastors who gave all and received nothing, and they were not expecting anything either, but God took care of them, and he has taken care of my family as well.
I got the hireling from the Bible, in case you did not know. There are many preachers who are on a salary that do not care for the flock, There are preachers who leave the flock that are watching over for a higher salary, and that church goes for a long period of time without a Pastor, is that right? For more money? Come on.
That is a Hireling!!
I don't think it is wrong for the preacher to be able to live off of the flock, but to get rich off of them, while they can barely survive is something totally different.
There are people that I know who could not even afford medicine for their children because of all the finances that were pumped from them from the church. Don't tell me the preacher needs to be rich and wealthy, while the flock starves, that is real smart. Drive em till they die.
What did Jesus have, he did not even have a place to lay his head, but the Pastors today want to stay in the Hilton Resort, and expect the church to pay for it.
There are people that have to sell their plasma to be able to make it, because there is 4 services a week, not to count prayer meetings and Bible study, that they are required to attend, and if they don't have money to put in the offering they are land blasted from the pulpit,with stuff like, " you look at the offering plate like it has the plague."
While we were laboring at one church, and bringing alot of people, we were barely making it, but spending about 80-100 a week picking people up for church, and the Pastor got up behind the pulpit and basically belittled because the Sunday Night Budget Offering was not enough!! Nevermind the fact that we spend all this money in gas and give in every regular offering, not to mention all the other finances that we gave when they called and asked for it. I am not complaining about giving, I have never had a problem with that, but when the preacher thinks that I need to make him rich, then yes I have a problem.
Last time I checked Jesus was a excellent example of a PASTOR!!!!!
(Message edited by free2beme on August 28, 2005) |
greg_s (greg_s)
New member
Username: greg_s
Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 203.236.95.169
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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TITLE: “Will You Pay Your Share?” or “Quiz for the Non-Tither”
QUIZ - For the Non-Tither, who attends a church, but may benefit the tither also.
REVISED! FOR EVEN MORE CLARITY! - So now giving is even more difficult to misunderstand! But, also, more easily understood! No scripture is provided due to the common sense nature of the topic.
1. If one of the church members has something (i.e. Cadillac, home, vacation, boat, private schooling, college education for family and self) should the pastor?
2. Who is to decide if the pastor has all that he/she wants? (You may choose more than one answer)
a. The richest person in the congregation.
b. The congregation.
c. The pastor.
d. God.
e. Not my concern.
3. Is it wrong for the pastor to have nice things? Yes or No (circle one)
4. Are the pastor’s desires less necessary than the desires of the congregation? Yes or No (circle one)
5. Does God use people to bless his work and workers? Yes or No (circle one)
6. Do you ever have a desire to increase your standard of living? Yes or No (circle one)
7. Have you ever desired for someone to give you money? Yes or No (circle one)
Extra Credit Essay Question: In your own words (of course) explain why the congregation should ensure the pastor has as much as the richest person in the congregation?
Gut Check Question: What do you do to ensure that the pastor has all that he/she wants?
a. Pray that God will bless them real good?
b. Tithe and give?
c. Give only?
d. Ask the pastor?
e. None of the above.
Math problem: Compute the bills for the church. Then compute what you think the pastor’s salary should be (what is his worth?). Then compute what the pastor’s bills are. (If you can’t do that use what your bills are.) Look around your church for things that should be done. (i.e. Painting, new carpet, songbooks, church van needs, et al) Add any other computations that are reasonable. Add all these numbers up. Now divide that dollar total by the average number of people in a church service. (That would be the number of people per week divided by 5 if it’s an NTCC schedule.)
Correct your own paper.
Whether you’re a tithe and offering payer or just an offering payer, how did you do? I have been doing this math problem for at least 5 years. I am a tithe and offerer. And what I give always comes short of the answer. But as a tithe and offerer I am giving what God wants.
The reason I started doing this math problem is because people often say "I don't tithe but I believe in doing my part, or giving my share." So I figure out what a share/part should be. In the church I currently attend my answer is $360 per adult per month or $22.50 per service (tithe and offerings are not received for Bible Study). That’s per adult, so for husband and wife it's $720 per month or $45 per service.
Based on your calculation which is more economical for you, tithe and offerings or just offerings?
Again, for the Christian it's still about rules and money.
So, for the "All Christians pay tithe and give offerings" giver or the "I just give offerings" giver it’s the same question…“The church (Again, this quiz is for those that go to church, whatever church you go to.) and the ministry will be supported!” But, will someone have to pay your share?
(Message edited by Greg_s on July 24, 2005) |
bigboy (bigboy)
Member
Username: bigboy
Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 214.13.160.214
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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What ever happened to living within your means and being content with God has provided. Why worry about what men can provide, it is sure to be something material. And if that is what is the major concern of any pastor then maybe he should become a motivational speaker instead. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Junior Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 50
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:37 am: |
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Greg,
Why would you all of a sudden change your habit? "It has been my habit of late to be leery of the “long on explanation, short on scripture” teaching."
Especially, when it is easier to prove that a gospel minister can receive support with a few Scriptures from the New Testamnet than to prove that gospel preachers are a new Levitical priesthood that Jesus sanctioned to receive the tithes as the Levites (as you have tried to do).
It is much easier to prove that a gospel minister can receive financial support than to preach that anyone who does not give ten percent of their gross income/increases is a God robber and will be "to heavy to make the rapture," or robbers of temples, etc...
I understand that the contents of a thread wander when posts and responses are made, but "the matter of raising funds for Christian activities is not the problem. It is the method that is being used by ministers and churches to raise those funds that is at issue. It is whether ecclesiastical authorities should use deceptive methods to gain funds (by teaching that church members are obligated to pay the biblical tithe today)." (The Tithing Dilemma)
Doug Allen |
jaxon (jaxon)
New member
Username: jaxon
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 69.146.151.111
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
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is greg_s the real greg skunk, i mean shunk |
jdn10305 (jdn10305)
Member
Username: jdn10305
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.118.132.120
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
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The lifestyle of a minister should not be any less than those whom he ministers to. When we live in a society that allows men and women to achieve great things and own nice material possessions, then why shouldn't the man or woman that ministers to those people have the same things? Why would we expect preachers to live as if they're in a third-world country while we drive our SUV's and wear nice clothes? |
tanyahaynes (tanyahaynes)
Member
Username: tanyahaynes
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 24.0.21.25
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 3:45 pm: |
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That is so true...jdn. Why is it that most of the students out in Graham drive beat up cars and shop at the kook stores (if you know NTCC you know what a kook store is) while the leadership live so... nicely? A pastor should live like his members... I agree. Most of the bible school members live in run down, small apartments and eat ramon noodles. Just how many nice cars do you see in a NTCC parking lot?
Having said that.... I really don't have an issue with them having nice things. But I do wonder why not many of the members have nice things.... |
american (american)
New member
Username: american
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 207.69.137.202
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
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Tanya,
I know you have not been out to Graham in a long time. Maybe at that time the parking lot was not filled with all new vehicles, but last time I looked, nice cars were the majority and beaters were the exception. God takes care of his people. When you do see an older car, that doesn't tell us anything. For all we know that person sees no need for a shiny BMW and CHOOSES to drive what he or she drives. We're not to judge a person based on what they drive.
There is nothing wrong with a christian having nice things. |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 144
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.161.238.172
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:34 pm: |
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If a pastor is only in the ministry for money, shame on him.
There is not anyhing wrong with a pastor leaving one place for more money, especially if they are in a mainline denomination. If the pastor is only making $30,000, and has a house payment, car payment, food, kids, etc, $30,000 is not a lot of money. That does NOT make him a hireling. Oh, I am well aware of the term, and I also know that it is outdated. Look up the 21 century application of the word.
As far as this stupid notion that pastors get rich while the people can hardly get by, well...BUNK! There may be one or two in an entire congregation like that. That is not the rule. That is a statement used, by people like yourself, to support their very biased opinions.
I believe that a pastor should be blessed. It is not his problem if some people in his congregation are poor. Most people are poor due to the choices that they have made. The pastor is there to help, but not to be their money source. A pastor should not have to live at the poverty line just to satisfy people who really do not understand what it means to be in the full time ministry.
Free2beme, I am speaking to you. Your pastor has a problem with money. Leave! Do not lump every pastor into one pile based on your personal expirience. Also, I am sure, from your post, that you have never been ordained and served in a true pastoral/associate role. Your opinion, while valid, is in the very smallest minority. Keep it, and let those of us who are called to the ministry carry on. |
godislove (godislove)
New member
Username: godislove
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 150.226.95.18
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
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GOD IS LOVE. I have been reading these posts for a while and just felt like posting. I do currently attend NTCC and thankful for it. Everyone needs to worship somewhere. I love everyone on these boards and I don't believe because one leaves NTCC that he or she has lost out on God. Salvation is from the Lord, and no man can take it away. You can lose your salvation, but it has nothing to do with leaving an organization. God lays out in the Bible how to keep it and things that will cause you to lose it. I understand some people on these posts are hurt and things have happened to them and I won't question that. There have been some very bold and arrogant posts from both sides and I won't get into that. But anyway, I love all you guys(brothers and sisters), whether you attend NTCC or not. Just hang in there wherever you are and lets fight the good fight of faith.
God Bless You and may his mercy and grace and love be with you forever. |
tanyahaynes (tanyahaynes)
Member
Username: tanyahaynes
Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 24.0.21.25
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
|
Like I said, I don't really have an issue with a pastor having nice things... it is really none of anyone's business how much money a Pastor has or doesn't have because he is accountable to God for what he may or may not have and how he has used it. I was just making an observation from the last time that I was in Bible school and responding to the third world comment by jdn. As I recall... most of the fellowship that we had with other couples would support the 'hardly getting by' statement but like you said they may have been tucking away all their money... who knows. After reading my previous post, I guess it did sound a little gooberish, sorry. |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
New member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 209.112.184.62
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 3:28 am: |
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Bear,
Somehow the original issue here seems to have been lost. You have been persuasive in stating the position that it's not wrong for ministers to be well paid. But that's not what's being discussed; the topic is whether or not they should use some Mosaic law to extort money from the congregation by scaring them with hell fire. NTCC does this; we were told that "God robbers" (aka non tithers) were the worst kind of thieves, and that anyone who would steal from God was capable of anything. So even if ministers should make a decent living (sounds reasonable to me), they shouldn't do so by strongarming their parishioners and manipulating them through fear and guilt. Don't you think?
Vic Johanson |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.10.61
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
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Bear,
Have you or do you attend NTCC? I am not going to bicker back and forth with you. I know what I have seen and what happens.
God did not sent Jonah to Nivevah for the money, but for the people, and a preacher should not go to a city for the money, but for the people.
I do not need to expound to you on what " I have done for God", because God is the one I did it for.
I don't think you understand what is being said here, because all you keep going on about is what the preacher is entitled to, which is obviously a big issue for you.
You just go on about your merry money way, and I will go about mine.
If you want to leave your flock for more money, hey more money to you!! I mean who cares if they have someone to Pastor over them, as long as you got more money in your pocket!!
Peter, do you love me? Yes Lord.., Peter ,do you love me? Yes Lord,... then FEED my sheep.
Vic,
You are very right and unless someone has experienced it first hand, then they are pretty clueless!!
(Message edited by free2beme on August 28, 2005) |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:28 am: |
|
Posted earlier
I really think Greg S who I think is SHEPHARD,
I was sent an email from Tina Shephard and she says that this is not Greg Shephard who is posting under greg_s.
Doug allengatorz@juno.com |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 53
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
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posted on July 21:
I really think Greg S who I think is SHEPHARD
I received an e-mail from Tina Shephard, and she says that her husband Greg Shephard is not posting under the name greg_s.
Doug allengatorz@juno.com |
greg_s (greg_s)
New member
Username: greg_s
Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 203.236.95.169
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 9:22 am: |
|
TITLE: “LET’S PLAY AGAIN”
RULES FOR THE GAME:
Consider the Bible study on tithe posted by greg_s (greg_s) Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:09 pm:
Exclude all of the teaching. In other words exclude everything that is/are not Bible verses; Title, introduction, dates, conclusion; everything.
Now exclude all verses that aren’t New Testament.
All that should be left is the raw, right out of the New Testament verses.
It will look something like this:
Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Matthew 5:20; Luke 8:11-12; Luke 16:16; John 8:37-40; Matthew 28:18-20; Galatians 3:26-29; James 2:20-26; Hebrews 7:1-4; Hebrews 7:7-12; I Peter 2:5; I Peter 2:9. (Advanced players can include verses from the entire Bible.) (Also, this game is versatile; it can be played with any topic.)
Arrange in any order you like.
Now exclude as many verses as you can using whatever reasoning you want.
If you get it down to less than two verses you win.
Good Luck! I have every confidence that many of you will win.
You do not have to post your findings, or present your reasonings. This is individual effort for your own information. |
jaxon (jaxon)
New member
Username: jaxon
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 69.146.149.199
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
|
the ip address for greg_s shows it is from Seoul, South Korea. I think the shunk's are there. |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.144.127.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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Vic,
My original post on this thread was addressing a comment made by the buck stops here. Freetobeme took it here, not me.
FTBM, No, I have already addressed the fact that I am not affiliated with any NTCC. I do, however know that it is an abusive organization. Your personal expirience with the church does not negate the facts that I have already presented.
You have said that you are not ordained, and have no desire to be in the full time ministry. So, do not let what happened at your church and with your pastor taint you from the truth.
It takes money to live; pastors are not any exception. You have the wrong view of ministry, and have not actually listened to one thing that I have posted. You are like many who hear what they want, instead of what is being said.
I believe that A senior pastor should stay put. His church should take care of him well enough so that he can focus on the work of the ministry |
polaris (polaris)
New member
Username: polaris
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 69.153.3.204
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 1:42 pm: |
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To bear: I do agree that members of a congregation should take care of their pastor AND the pastor should also take care of the people. At NTCC that was not always the case. There was more pressure on the pastors to up the numbers, than there was a pressure to love and care for the sheep that were already there. This happens at other churches too. At NTCC the pastors usually changed every 2 years or so. Not always, but mostly. If you have ever been in a serviceman's home, not only the single GI's BUT the married coupples AND the single moms went soul winning 5 days a week, twice on three of those days for the married women. We worked hard, picking up contacts for the services, visiting contacts, inviting new people and so forth. We (members of the serviceman's homes) did alot more than many minister's and their wives did.( hope those who are ministers and ministers wives don't get offended ). We spent alot of gas, wear and tear of our vehicles , no time for spouses and children, and so on. Remember, the bread winners of the families and the single GI's had full-time jobs already. There were other activites we had to be involved in too. Noon time prayer meetings, night time prayer meetings, soul winning meetings and other stuff. Our days were busy. We were told we were labors for Christ, that God needed laborers. Even though we did not go to Bible school and hold titles of preacher or preachers wives, we ministered to our contacts because the majority really did care for them and we did what we did because we loved the Lord. Having said all of that, do you think that the verses that say "the laborer is worthy of his hire", and "muzzle not the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn" should also apply to us, the ones who really worked in the field? I am not negating what the pastors and their wives did. But what the members do often IS negated. If your contacts don't come it is because the soulwinner has sin or the soulwinner doesn't love them (that is what we were told ) But if the church grows and members are added to the rolls, the pastor gets uplifted. I mean if he takes credit for the increase, then he should also take the blame for the decrease. I realize that THEIR pastor would shame them when they "failed". But many of those same pastors would in turn do the same to the members. Unless you have been there, you have no idea what it was like for those who have. Hopefully, you will have ears to hear also.... |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.3.158
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:19 pm: |
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I know that BEAR keeps insinuating that I have done nothing, but who cares. He has not experienced what I have. I did not care about the money.
As far as Bear is concerned, I really think that you missed the whole point, when a preacher uses condemnation to HELL to the flock if they do not give, then yes it is WRONG.
I do believe I said I agree that it is okay for a preacher to live off the church, but when he gets to the point where everyone is going to Hell because they do not give enough, then he is greedy and has lost his focus.
If you love people, truly love them, showing them the love of Christ and let Christ deal with them about what to give, then everything else will take care of itself. The preacher should not be worried about how much he will make tommorow, for tommorow will take care of itself. Trust God to deal with the people about the needs of the preacher, He sent ravens to feed the prophet, how much more today if you will only trust him.
Too many times preachers get caught up in what they will make, but what about God. IS God in the equation?
There is no need to keep shoving your point down my throat Bear, I am rather a smart person, contrary to what you believe about me. I understand what you are saying, but apparently you are not understanding the point.
I DO NOT THINK IT IS RIGHT FOR A PREACHER TO CALL PEOPLE GOD ROBBERS AND CONDEMN THEM TO HELL IF THEY DO NOT PAY THEIR TITHE AND GIVE IN THE OFFERINGS!!!!! IT IS NOT RIGHT!!!
Anyhow you will not change my opinion on things, and I will not change yours so just go on about your way.
(Message edited by free2beme on August 28, 2005) |
bear (bear)
Intermediate Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 4.165.236.49
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:27 pm: |
|
As I said, my original post was aimed at once specific comment by another.
I do not think that it is right to condemn people either. I believe giving is a personal issue. Too many pastors are worried only about numbers, and not enough about the people.
To polaris, thank you for your constructive comment.
To FTBM, I will go about my way! |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.3.158
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:39 pm: |
|
 |
havfaith_01 (havfaith_01)
New member
Username: havfaith_01
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 80.148.16.97
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
|
I Cor 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of neccessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
Bro Allen, this scripture is talking about offerings not tithes...2 different things.
And I just want to say 1st, that Original is not a preacher.I can testify to that.
2nd, a preacher driving a cadillac is not a bad thing, the way I see it, this man that you all are speaking of deserves it, and God obviously thinks so too.
I mean I think it is only being found fault with because of who is driving it.
Just a word of warning..you guys say you are "still" Christians..well the Bible says to touch not God's annointed..and I am sure you all know that already, so you might want to watch what you say.Even if you do have bitterness conjured up by the devil. |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
New member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.223.233.130
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
|
Greg--look in the mirror.
91. Even when you don’t have anything substantive to add, post to bury, in the thread, opposing views.
Vic |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.3.197
| | Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 9:07 pm: |
|
Does'nt he have anything better to do than to sit around and think up stupid labels for exntcc'ers? Should'nt you be out knocking on doors or something? Should'nt you be at the Spanaway Market Place in your suit and tie swatting flies off the fruit looking for someone to stalk?
Greg, when I read your post I could not help but think of the prevailing attitude here. It is more than just the tithe that I am referring to here with this, but the attitude in general.
11 The Pharisee(NTCCer) stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (written 58-63 a.d.) |
greg_s (greg_s)
Junior Member
Username: greg_s
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 203.236.95.169
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 10:02 am: |
|
TITLE: “Some Final Comments” or “The Final Round” (LAST UPDATE: August 16, 2005)  (REVISED FOR EVEN MORE CLARITY!) So now church financing is even more difficult to misunderstand! But, also, more easily understood!
IS THERE A DOCTOR IN THE HOUSE? : For those just tuning in, verses from the New Testament (only) broke the back (Was there any doubt?) of the ExNTCC assertion that all Christians do not pay tithe. This can be seen in the Bible study on tithe above. (greg_s Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:09 pm: TITLE: The Doctrine of “Tithing”) Not all the New Testament scriptures that prove “All Christians pay tithe” were used. In other words, there is still more in the New Testament concerning tithe! Also, offerings and support of the ministry wasn’t addressed in the above teaching.
RULES FOR THE GAME: The casual observer, in reading ExNTCC posts, noticed a set of ExNTCC rules emerging with respect to tithe. They are: (1) No verses from the Old Testament are allowed. (2) No verses having to do with offerings are allowed. (3) No verses dealing with support of the ministry are allowed. (4) No verses presented by anyone currently attending NTCC are to be considered.
NOT MUCH TO OFFER: For those NTCC’rs inclined to occasionally accept ExNTCC’rs ongoing invitation to contribute to this thread rule four (4) has to be set aside because, as you have seen, the NTCC’r doesn’t have much to offer outside the Bible. In other words, rule fours (4’s) suspense was necessary to wade into, with Bible, the shallow waters of opinion, rumor and innuendo (lies) which are this thread.
THINGS GOT RIDICULOUS: This paragraph refers to this point down only. For those bent on intentionally misunderstanding all that is posted have at it. There are gaps in “Some Final Comments”. They were left in place, knowing they would be exploited, attempting to keep this to less than three printed pages. (NOTE: Gaps closed by 8/2/05 but, was not any where near successful keeping under three pages.) The premise is none the less sound. Amendments can be added later if things get too ridiculous. (Things did, so for the record: Ongoing amendments to "Some Final Comments" started August 1, 2005. NOTE: This post has been edited over 30 times.) QUESTION: How does one deal with the recurring “Oh Yeah, says you” ExNTCC’r response/argument/position? ANSWER: One doesn’t.
WHY WE EDIT: When an NTCC post is misunderstood and/or twisted or something is added to the topic it necessitates a reworking of the post to restrict intentional misunderstanding and address any new issues that are brought up. This is why NTCC posts grow to such enormous proportions, are worded carefully (This thread is a hostile environment.) and difficult to read (for some). In editing posts, NTCC is just accommodating ExNTCC’s methods of discussion as ExNTCC bobs and weaves around the ring. No problem, were ExNTCC leads NTCC can follow, when we choose. (An NTCC trait, we’re followers by choice.) But, when ExNTCC’rs are on the ropes in the corner, as they often are, and NTCC comes in eye to eye with ExNTCC, ExNTCC has to address issues head on or switch to something else. (This whole thread is the result of ExNTCC being on the ropes and dancing around issues.) Historically ExNTCC switches to something else. (Now ExNTCC is on the topic of NTCC leadership; a recurring theme.) Well, NTCC does not have to follow to another issue. We can relax atop (king of the hill) the growing mountain of irrefutable simple logic, public history, public records, basic mathematics and simple New Testament teaching presented regarding church finances (money). In other words, so as to not be intentionally misunderstood, NTCC edits to oblige ExNTCC. ASIDE: Rules was addressed completely in 2004. The finishing touches with regards to money are to be found in this post. Rules and money wraps it up. Thanks for inviting us.
WHAT’S IN THE BOX? : Churches that depend on the largess of the congregation only are routinely short of money. Churches that rely on the donation box at the back of the church, receive, for all practical purposes, nothing in the box! Unless the box is left un-emptied for great lengths of time. (Personal experience talking.) You will not support the church and the minister on the donation box alone. In the interest of further restricting intentional misunderstanding, being in the red, relying on the donation box is to have received, for all practical purposes, nothing in the box! (For what is meant by relying on the donation box see paragraph below entitled: GEORGE MUELLER’S CHILDREN.)
A CHURCH IN VIRGINIA: (Figures updated 8/8/05) One church that we all know of, thanks to an unreliable source, that is in the red this year using the “box at the back of the church” as a part of its fund raising efforts is located in Virginia. Even though the church’s financial status is made known to the general public and the box at the back of the church is promoted they are still $28,013 in the red as of July 31, 2005, which isn’t much considering their large budget and their general income ($514,954) received this year. (Rounding to the nearest dollar, based on public records.) This church also uses fund raisers. This is a large church of 400 people located in Virginia (Sighting an unofficial count from Unreliable Source for the Virginia church.) with extremely nice facilities and a lot of activities. Thus far for 2005 this same church in Virginia gave an average of $575 less per month per missionary than NTCC has paid per month per missionary to support NTCC missionaries. But this is understandable because this Virginia church uses 10-25% of what a missionary needs as a guide for giving. If this Virginia church supported their missionaries 100% as NTCC does they would pay an average of $52 more than NTCC pays in support to their missionaries. Don’t intentionally misunderstand, we said $52 more. That’s based on year to date public financial records as of July 31, 2005 for the Virginia church and NTCC. For 2004 that same church in Virginia gave an average of $304 less per month per missionary than was paid by NTCC in direct support to their missionaries. (That’s based on unofficial 2004 numbers for the Virginia church from, yes, Unreliable Source.)
A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD: Realizing we are comparing a church organization made up of many churches to one local church; to be fair to all, present an accurate view and to avoid being intentionally misunderstood, the numbers were broken down per missionary (using percentages, just like tithe, it’s fair for everyone) to keep both on a level playing field. We would like to add that these numbers for how NTCC supports its missionaries financially are for direct support only: salary for the missionary, transportation for the missionary, et al. These figures for NTCC do not include indirect support for world missions: transportation for director and pastor to visit the field, administrative support, salary for world mission’s director (when we have one), et al. Realize these figures for NTCC are low balled. To be clear, this church in Virginia is giving $403 (19 month average) less per month (more if we count indirect support) per missionary than NTCC pays for NTCC missionaries based on figures for the last nineteen (19) months. ASIDE: The more we learn about Virginia church and their support of missions the more impressed we are. Based on Virginia church public records for missionary monies received as of July 31, 2005; if Virginia church support there missionaries at NTCC’s 100% rate they would be supporting 16 missionaries. Last we checked that is more than NTCC. (That’s not counting NTCC kids, NTCC nationals or NTCC missionaries in South Korea and Europe.) That is something to shout about. Just like Virginia church all monies received for NTCC world missions that are designated by the donor to a specific NTCC work or pastor are forwarded to that NTCC work or pastor. (Personal experience talking, 100% is forwarded.) If the work is defunct directed donations are held in escrow against the time when the work is reopened. This would be in addition to the finances NTCC missionaries already receive from NTCC as presented above. Don’t intentionally misunderstand; we are talking about money paid to NTCC missionaries, not money collected.
PROPHESY: (8/10/05) The ExNTCC’rs charge will switch from “Where’s the money going and railing against rules” to “NTCC isn’t doing enough for missions/charity also NTCC was holding me back so I couldn’t do as much for God, that’s the real reason why I left, really.” (See BONUS SURPRISE ENDING below)
DON’T INTENTIONALLY MISUNDERSTAND: If one will research, one will be hard pressed to find any church that gives as much in dollars per missionary, as NTCC gives (direct and indirect funding) to their missionaries. If one will research, one will be hard pressed to find missionaries that directly receive a higher percentage (79-100%) of world mission’s money that was collected than NTCC gives to their missionaries. Again, we are still talking about money paid not money collected. Of the missionaries that we know of outside of NTCC, all of them receive funding from multiple sources. Because of this they have to be involved in fund raising. NTCC supports its missionaries fully. Don’t intentionally misunderstand this. We said fully not extravagantly. Our missionaries have more time to spend in the field winning souls. Don’t intentionally misunderstand this, we are not saying that their are no churches that give more, the point we are making is NTCC is competitive, which is the point, with the industry standard for money paid to missionaries and conduct of a non-profit, whether the standard is actual cash per missionary or percentages of funds raised that actually makes it to the missionary. Don’t intentionally misunderstand, missions is not a competition. This public NTCC financial data is being re-re-presented because our pecuniary handling of world missions is one of many issues by which NTCC is impugned on these strands. Any church or individual that gives any amount to Christian world missions is doing God’s work. That is the correct attitude and the one we hold.
A BETTER WAY: The percentage of total expenses going to program costs is the most common measure of nonprofit organizational efficiency. Focus group research has found that donors expect organizations to have low fundraising and administrative costs. Consequently, nonprofits frequently tout their low overhead ratios in their mailings to the donors. The federal government’s Combined Federal Campaign (CFC), which raised nearly $250 million for nonprofits in 2003, requires that participating organizations certify that their combined fundraising and administrative costs constitute no more than 25 percent of the organizations’ total revenues. Over 79% of monies collected for NTCC Missionaries go to directly support the missionary.
WHO PAYS FOR PASTOR? : These figures (79%, et al) are based on our Pastor’s travel expenses, to missionaries in the field, being part of the world missions’ budget. (In other words world missions foot the bill.) We know how many trips (But, we added one, and over estimated ticket costs.) our Pastor has taken to visit our missionaries in the field; we don’t know how many trips our Pastor has paid for (all of them) his self. If our Pastor paid, out of his own pocket, for just one of the trips taken, to visit our missionaries in the field since 1997 that would increase the percent paid to directly support our missionaries to 81%; if two 83%; if three 85%; et al. If our Pastor always paid his way, every time, to visit missionaries in the field since 1997 that would mean more than 91% of donated money is going to directly support our missionaries in the field.
LOW ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS: The more accurate percentage would be upwards toward 100%. Our justification for saying this is the fact that World Missions donation for NTCC and subsequent payment to NTCC missionaries is managed through the administration that is already in place to manage the church. In other words because NTCC administrates it’s own World Missions program we are able to ensure a higher percentage of monies collected goes to direct support of the missionaries in the field. We don’t have separate facilities/administration to manage world missions. When churches give to world missions it is usually given to an organization separate from their church or to a separate administration set up to handle world missions within their organization, which logically deducts from the percentage that can be sent to missionaries in the field. The way NTCC manages its missions program shows a concern for the needs of the missionary in the field (more money). Also, we limit the size of individual offerings to world missions; this lessens the burden to our congregations. This necessitates more people being involved, but the Christian is supposed to carry his or her own weight as part of the body of Christ.
WHERE’S THE MONEY? : Our conclusion, when all the data was considered, is the amount of offering’s that are received for world missions in our organization does not cover the cost to field our missionaries. Based on the figures above, the number of missionaries NTCC currently has in the field would take over 2642 donations (of the suggested size) per month to keep the NTCC world missions program in the black. (That’s for direct and indirect support.) For one hundred (100) churches that is twenty-six (26) people per church paying world mission’s pledges per month. (Four pay world missions pledges in the church I currently attend.) So where is the extra money coming from? I’m not paying it. The church I currently attend is not paying it. It is my belief that the very men (Who else could pay?) that have been slandered on this thread are the ones making up the difference, standing in the gap. So the logical question when everything is considered is not “Where does the money collected go?” but “Where is the needed money coming from?” because the missionaries in the field are receiving their funds. (Personal experience talking.) In other words the missionaries are being supported no matter what. So someone must be paying when the pledges aren’t enough. Thank God for them which stand in the gap. Don’t intentionally misunderstand, we did not say collected, we said paid. We are confident that much more money is paid to support NTCC missionaries in the field than anyone knows about or than is collected in pledges.
QUESTION: Why is what has been reported by ExNTCC about NTCC’s world missions program so different from the figures above? The above figures being re-re-presented for NTCC are based on data that is common knowledge to anyone that goes to our conferences. (Ministers go, ExNTCC ministers have gone, church members go and ex church members have gone.) The figures for the Virginia church are based on data that is available to everyone. Another question we have is why the anti-works crowd (ExNTCC) wants to pit one churches works (Virginia church) against another churches works (NTCC), to show NTCC is not doing enough and misusing funds? (It’s called grasping at straws, and is an ExNTCC attribute.) Don’t intentionally misunderstand; it worked together for the good, affording an opportunity to re-re-present NTCC’s public world mission’s financial data, to those that already knew it (ExNTCC), again. ASIDE: So what else is ExNTCC wrong about? What else has ExNTCC misrepresented?
NEW COVENANT CHURCH (NCC): New Covenant Church of Hampton, Va. was drug onto this sight by Unreliable Source, we’ll choose to assume Unreliable Source meant well. (QUESTION: Would it be reasonable to ask if Unreliable Source eventually damages every church he attends? ANSWER: Probably not.) New Covenant Church was showcased, by Unreliable Source, as an example of what a church could/should be doing with regards to, among other things, support of world missions. Personally, we don’t know of a better example that could have been picked. Based on their web sight, there history of supporting world missions is exemplary. I am thankful for the things I read on the New Covenant Church’s web sight concerning world missions, and what they are able to do financially for missionaries, it is truly remarkable. This church is not just talking about doing something but doing something. Their web sight shows New Covenant Church in Hampton, Va. makes a major commitment to support missionaries each year, then follows through. Missionaries need more people like those found at New Covenant Church in Hampton, Va. One may think, why all the laudatory comment’s, what’s the catch. That shows the need for what was just read. No catch, we have seen examples, on these strands, how wrong conclusions are coupled with circumstantial evidence, half truths and lies; and this church’s name now appears on a Cults web-sight, thanks to Unreliable Source. New Covenant Church in Hampton, Va. is presented as an example to the believer with respect to world mission’s support, which they are. Speaking from a missionary perspective, we are thankful for their extremely generous support of world missions. As we said earlier: Missionaries need more people like those found at New Covenant Church in Hampton, Va. You have read the good thing we have to say about NCC; let’s read what NCC modestly says about themselves.
NEW COVENANT CHURCH (NCC) IN THEIR OWN WORDS: (Extract from their web sight.) Global Ministries at New Covenant Church: We are excited as our church missions program continues to extend itself into unreached and unevangelized area of the world. New Covenant, from its inception, has been very involved in foreign missions, both in a sending and supporting role. Our missionaries and foreign nationals are involved in various ministries ranging from teaching the deaf to preaching to the masses. About half of our missionaries are strategically located in the un-evangelized “10/40 Window”. We also have many short-term teams and individuals taking the Gospel around the globe. NCC missions enthusiasm extends from our youth all the way up to our seniors! In the year 2001, New Covenant Church expanded its sphere of outreach through numerous short and long term mission efforts. We believe that God has many more new places and people to join our mission force for the new millennium! Our missionaries are supported from our church budget in various amounts, ranging from $100-$850 per month. This provides between 10-25% of their financial needs. They must raise the remaining funds themselves. Should you wish to support any of these mission efforts, send a check to New Covenant Church and attach a note designating the area or project you wish to support. There are many other ways we as a body can encourage and bless our foreign missionaries….plus many opportunities for YOU to be involved. You may want to go and “look on the fields” yourself. Let the Holy Spirit show you your part!! ASIDE: See what we mean! What a blessing! Praise the Lord!
NEW COVENANT CHURCH (NCC) PRAISE REPORT: As of 7/31/05 NCC has received $98,653 for world missions. NCC received $2,903 for world missions for the week of 8/6/05 for a total of $101,556.
LET’S PRETEND: Many can attest of churches that receive four and five offerings on a Sunday morning, in the attempt to meet the financial needs of the church. Churches that do not teach Biblical New Testament tithe, by necessity, are more preoccupied with money than those that teach Biblical New Testament tithe. In churches that teach tithe the money is there, churches that don’t the money must be coerced from the congregation. Putting a box for donations at the back of the church and then promoting it is the same as passing the plate; the only differences being its location and construction. Putting a box for donations at the back of the church and then training the congregation to put money in the box is the same as passing the plate; the only differences being its location and construction. To do the above and then claim that a church doesn’t receive offerings or doesn’t pass the plate is disingenuous, to put it mildly. It is also fair to add that the box placement in itself pressures the congregation to give. For example; putting it by the place where the pastor stands so you have to go by the box to get out the door. Boxes are also put up front, and an announcement is made during service that those that want to give can come forward now. These methods cause people to give more than they might normally or can afford or causes people to “pretend” they are giving. But, some people will pretend to give no matter what method is used to receive an offering.
GEORGE MUELLER’S CHILDREN: Recently, in one of the many predictably mad ExNTCC scrambles for any type of answer to throw at any issue (See EDS MOTTO at the end.) George Mueller was sighted with regards to tithe; as an example of what God can do without tithe. But, realize that George Mueller never accepted a salary for any of his later ministries. Neither did George Mueller tell anyone of his personal need nor any of the ministries needs. He told only God and God honored and anointed him mightily. In other words George Mueller never used fund raising schemes in any of his works, and never promoted the box. But, churches teach against tithe and then use the body of Christ for fund raising schemes to raise money. That is the problem. The New Testament clearly teaches “All Christians Pay Tithe and Give Offerings” But, if you aren’t going to allow tithe then don’t use any other scheme in replacement of God’s. Yes, people talk about faith, people say we don’t need tithe we have God and faith. Great, exercise it by not relying on man made methods to pay the bills. People like to say it’s not works, works are legalistic. Well, pay the bills without works. No fund raising schemes, no soul winning, don’t receive offerings or tithe during church services. Just go in your prayer closet and seek God till an angel brings the bag of money you need. So you say: We don’t need tithe, we be George Mueller’s children; Well, to be a child of George Mueller you must do the works of George Mueller.
A SIMPLE, CLEAR MESSAGE: New Testament Christian Church continues to pay its bills teaching the simple, clear message of tithe, as the Bible based New Testament requirement it is, to Gods people; and stating simply, in the church service, before the offering is received “All Christians pay tithe and give offerings” then moving on to the rest of the service. Very much more is done in other churches validating the choice of the word coerced. Because we follow the Bible admonition to tithe, our church congregations have more time for family, friend, job and God.
WHY SO MUCH CHURCH? : People have asked “Why do we have so many church services?” Well, one reason we are able to have so many church services is because we are not spending our time raising funds. It is a lot easier (and desirable and cheaper) to go to church for an hour on Thursday evening, than it is to report to the church after work on that same Thursday evening to build the runway for the fashion show at the church on Saturday. It is a lot easier (and desirable and cheaper) to go seoul winning on Saturday for a few hours (and have the rest of the day for work, family or what ever) than it is to report to church at eight a.m. on that same Saturday and wash cars all day in the church parking lot to raise funds for the church.
FULLY INVOLVED: These examples pertain to people that want to be fully involved in whatever church they attend. There are those that are satisfied with going to church on Sunday morning only and not being involved in any other way. We do what we want to do. No one can force us. But, keep in mind, not everyone has the ability or the desire to cook and sell boxed lunches all day Saturday. (The church boxed lunches I’ve had were good: fried chicken, corn bread, macaroni & cheese, and collards et al - good stuff, reasonably priced also, but we gave extra because it’s for the church.) But, everyone can give tithes and offerings at Sunday Morning Service. A lot less trouble also, because when the cooking and dinner sales are finished; the church kitchen, fellowship hall and vehicles used to deliver the dinners must be cleaned. If you get home by 10 p.m. Saturday your doing good. (Starting at 4 a.m. that’s an 18 hour day? Plus during the week prior the chicken, et al had to be purchased, washed, repacked and stored) Are people glad to help? Absolutely! Many will work hard, and gladly as unto the Lord, but is that the point?
MORE TIME FOR GOD: Many on these strands have faulted the amount of time spent serving God in NTCC. But, looking at it objectively, taking all into consideration, (for those that want to be involved, in whatever church they attend, more than Sunday Morning Service) we at NTCC actually have more time for our families and other pursuits than those fully involved in their non-tithe teaching church. That last statement being true is also based on personal experience, which on this thread trumps all other considerations, including the Bible.
NO GIMMICKS HERE: New Testament Christian Church does not rely on bake sales, car washes, church suppers, auctions, gambling (bingo, et al), haunted houses on Halloween, Ponzie schemes (AmWay, et al), Christmas and Easter plays, music concerts, raffles or drawings, multiple offerings received in a service, yard sales, soliciting (via door to door, U.S. mail and/or media [radio, T.V., print] – a.k.a. begging), fairs, selling box lunches, daycare, selling magazine subscriptions or candy bars, fashion shows, education or any of the other methods used in today’s church world to raise funds for the church. Tithe is a lot simpler and a lot less time consuming than the above methods, don’t you agree?
CHURCH FUND RAISING BY THE NUMBERS: Church fund raising, when done using the above methods, are extremely time consuming. Many churches have at least one major fund raising activity, every month, year round; the reason being is fund raisers routinely do not yield much money. But, non-Biblical fund raising is a necessity, to pay the bills, in the non-tithe teaching church. When effort involved, and other hidden expenses inherent to non-Biblical fund raising are considered, fund raising is an extremely poor use of resources (people, time, and money) and the reality is fund raising schemes loose money after all is considered. The only reason fund raising schemes seem to produce results is because the people that did all the work hand all the money over to the church and eat all the added expenses. Based on my research; the average one week fund raiser will produce less capital than what the tithe would be from one (But, next to nothing when hidden expenses are considered) minimum wage, full time employees for a year. Tithe is from work the person was going to do anyway, so there is no added effort. With tithe there is no added work for the church member.
JUST LIKE AmWay: Do you know how many (all of them) fund raising schemes would only break even or loose money if the congregation didn’t eat the hidden cost of the effort? (Gas, supplies, time, et al) Fund raising scheme profit margin claims are based on the assumption that the congregation is going to be taken advantage of by being asked to work long hours for free. A one week fund raising scheme will entail an average of thirty (30) hours total effort directed toward the scheme per participant. Unless they buy some or all the inventory themselves; which many will do. (That’s how AmWay works?) That would yield $240 @ $8/hour on a job. But they won’t make anything personally fundraising and will not make $240 to give to the church. In our churches that same person could tithe off the $240 they worked for at their job instead of giving it all to the church, and keep the rest. So that would be $24 for the church and $216 for the worker. That is better for the church member and the church because it New Testament Biblical. Fund raising schemes are not Biblical. Fund raising schemes are an obscene abuse of the body of Christ. It takes advantage of a person’s willingness to do something for God. Fund raising done according to the Bible allows the Christian to keep 90% of their own money and do something that will win souls. Fund raising schemes allow the church to take all the money that was worked for and forces the worker to eat all other expenses. The above statistics refer to fund raising schemes that are organized through a fund raising company (and there are many, a recent fund raising search yielded 5,390,000 results!?). The home grown fund raising schemes that most churches use are just as abusive and, as a bonus, an even greater waste of time, yielding even less money.
UP TO THE PASTOR: We realize that not everyone that is involved in fund raising is compelled into working free for a fund raising scheme. It comes down to, ultimately, the pastor and his guiding of the church. Christians will do whatever is asked of them for God, so it is up to the pastor to ensure what is asked is reasonable and fair and, above all other considerations, in accordance with the New Testament. Logically, it’s much more caring to ask a Christian if they would come soul winning for three hours, give the church ten (10) percent of there income and a freewill offering than to give them a product that will take 30 hours to sell per week, if they don’t decide to buy it themselves, so they can give all the money to the church and eat all the added expenses. But again, logic has nothing to do with this issue. Tithe and offerings and soul winning is the only plan God has to support and build his kingdom. QUESTION: How many works for God have been built from car washes? ANSWER: None.
THEREFORE NOT ABUSIVE: The above statistics sound like all the charges leveled against NTCC! But, again NTCC don’t use fund raising schemes in our churches; so NTCC is therefore not abusive.
WINNING SOULS: If you’re going to work for free wouldn’t the Kingdom of God be better served winning souls by soul winning? We’ll answer that question ourselves. Yes, the church would be better served with a Saturday (or whatever day) soul winning effort that would yield some souls. (Fund raising activities are not designed to win souls, just raise money, and do a poor job of that as has been shown.) Soul wining also helps church finances because “All Christians Pay Tithe and Give Offerings.” Even though this strand is about money; and Biblically, logically, mathematically proves false the ExNTCC charge against NTCC that NTCC steals from the body of Christ; let’s not forget the bottom line; win some souls to Jesus Christ!
CHURCH FINANCES - GOD’S METHOD: For some of the methods listed above, funds must be coerced from the congregation, to buy materials, tools and sometimes to hire workers, before a penny is raised? When direct selling (candy bars, box lunches, et al) money must be spent to procure inventory? People will work nights and weekends to put on a play or fashion show in the church, all to raise funds? There are many web sights that will teach you and your church how to raise money for your church, all within arms reach of the Bible in your home that clearly shows (in the New Testament) God’s method of meeting the financial need of the church and minister. Just as Jesus is the only way to heaven, tithe and offerings is the only way to financial independence, for the church. Independence from the worries associated with money and independence from the time and resource consuming activities associated with fund raising. Tithe and offering, being God’s plan, is the only way to be freed from the necessity of looking to the world to meet the needs of God’s house.
ONE MODEST EXAMPLE: Allow me to use the church I currently attend as a modest example of what God is able to do in a Biblical New Testament tithe teaching church. And the calm environment that is able to be maintained when finances aren’t at issue, and the increase, for the congregation, in time spent with friends, family, job and God.
MORE PERSONAL TIME: In the NTCC I currently attend if one was to go to every scheduled activity throughout the week (and some do, and, it is a standard schedule) it would take fourteen (14) hours. That includes getting ready for activities, i.e. shower, et al, travel to and from and time spent doing the actual activity/be it soul winning, Bible study, church, or prayer meeting. What do people get in return for the fourteen (14) hours? Well, they get one Church dinner (where all can sit down to eat, relax, talk, paid for entirely by church funds) one prayer meeting, one Bible study, four (4) one hour church services and three hours (or less) of visitation and soul winning on Saturday. The bills for this same church are $5000 per month and it is a congregation of less than thirty (30) people at this time. The pastor and church secretary each receive a monthly salary. A car is provided to the pastor, all expenses paid. The parsonage with all bills paid is provided to the pastor. (This is standard in our churches.) All is accomplished and paid for with tithe and offerings and not all pay tithe! Receiving one offering per church service. (We do not receive an offering on Bible study nights) What is said before we receive the offering is simply, plainly, Biblically “All Christians Pay Tithe and Give Offerings” we receive the offering, the preacher preaches, people make whatever decisions they want too during the alter call and the service ends. Some go home but many stay for fellowship and refreshments in the fellowship hall. What has just been described above is the rule, not the exception. (Fellowship was not included in the 14 hours, and there is no charge for those that partake. Plus after Sunday evening service at the church I attend, during fellowship, there is another church meal. All are invited free of charge.)
BETTER FACILITIES: This year we totally remodeled all the church properties at the church I attend. The sanctuary, fellowship hall, Sunday school, nursery, and parsonage were repainted, tiled and carpeted without receiving any extra offerings, and the work was hired out, we did not do the work ourselves. The church I currently attend has an account we put money into that we didn’t use in the course of the month to pay our normal bills. (Called escrow) The money we save is for our church only (as is the case with all our church escrow accounts). We used some of the money in our escrow account to pay for the remodel. (Some money is still left.) Many of our churches have these accounts. The monies in them are used for a variety of needs, in the church that put the money there, as they arise.
TO EACH HIS OWN: As was mentioned above, another aspect of NTCC that people often find curious is the fact that we have four (4) one hour church services every week, but some of those same people think nothing of going to a 3-5 hour Sunday morning church service somewhere else? Some will even go to all day church services every Sunday? Well, to each their own personal preference.
MAKING IT HAPPEN: Some non-tithe teaching churches invest church money in secular investments (stock market, et al); get bank loans, loans from a church member, and multiple mortgages on church and/or church member property. Some churches have a few rich members that pay all the bills. Some churches have trusts set up from inheritances received that the bills are paid from. Some churches rent the church basement or fellowship hall for Lodge and/or AA meetings to raise funds. Some churches will rent church vehicles out to little league teams and the like to raise funds. Some churches have indoor gyms that they rent out for basket ball leagues and dances to raise funds to pay church bills. Some churches have baseball diamonds they rent to raise church funds.
THANKS MOM: In some churches the pastor’s relatives (Mom, et al) will give large offerings to the church to be a blessing. ASIDE: Large offerings from relatives are a blessing but, if the pastor starts thinking, “Why didn’t they give that money to me?” then resentment builds. Or if the relative did give the money to the pastor and for whatever reason that same pastor gave it all to the church, then later changed their mind? (But then it is too late. Would that be robbing God?) Resentment builds. Maybe even to the point of the pastor loosing out with God. I know it sounds far fetched but it has happened. In some churches the pastor pays the bills with his or her own money. (Resentment can build from that also.) Some churches pressure the congregation by the placement of the donation box in the church.
SPIRITUAL DANGER: We have to be careful; we have to be honest with ourselves and realize no one has forced us to do anything. A Christian must keep a sweet spirit. So, in addition to lacking funds, there can be spiritual DANGER in churches relying upon methods, other than tithe, to augment offerings.
ILLUSTRATION: When looked at in the light of God’s word all the above methods of fund raising are like someone being told that they are too eat nothing but banana splits every day until they develop diabetes then they will be given insulin. Food is food right? Yes, but why not just do what’s right from the start and skip all the man made remedies and do what the doctor says? They may be alive with insulin but wouldn’t they be healthier and happier and able to do more if they didn’t have to rely on insulin?
ILLUSTRATION CONTINUED: Here is what we are going to do, open a church, but we don’t want people to tithe, just receive an offering until such time as the bills can’t be paid (after the first month) and then we are going to have bingo night to raise money. Money is money right? Yes, but why not just do it right from the start and skip all the man made remedies and do what God says? Your church may be paying the bills renting the church basement or fellowship hall to Alcoholics Anonymous and/or the Masons but wouldn’t the church be healthier and happier and able to do more with family, friends, work and God if the church didn’t have to be involved in secular fund raising activities?
CHRIST MEANS WHAT HE SAYS: There is no Biblical New Testament justification to remove the clear teaching on tithe, by Christ and the apostles, from the New Testament (as has been repeatedly shown). When Christ’s teachings on tithe are excluded from the doctrine of the church other methods, by necessity, must be substituted to raise money. The financing of the church should be done in accordance with biblical principles, not by misusing (ignoring) the tithing laws of the Bible (New Testament) to favor some other method. The matter of raising funds for Christian activities is not the problem. It is the method that is being used by ministers and churches to raise those funds that is at issue. Excluding tithe from the New Testament is a doctrine of men, not based on the Bible in any way, as has been repeatedly proven on this strand.
BECAUSE WE ARE TAUGHT: When the Christian doesn’t tithe the church must rely on man made methods to raise funds as we have seen above. For Christians not to tithe, they have to be taught not to tithe. NTCC, when teaching the Biblical tithe to some Christians, must first un-teach so the Bible can be taught. Christians that are taught not to tithe or taught tithe is optional (that’s not Biblical as has been repeatedly shown) are then involved (compelled) in/into fund raising activities. Does anyone even know of a non-tithe teaching church that doesn’t use any of the above methods and still has needed funds? If you do, it is an extremely rare exception. If you do, it is because church members tithe in spite of teachings against it. (Keep in mind teaching that something God commands is optional is the same as teaching against it.) Exceptions do not disprove rules, unless one is talking about Algebra. There are tithe teaching churches that fund raise, but that comes under the heading of “This is what we have always done” or “Trying to live above our means (see Luke 14:28-30)” not of necessity.
WE DON’T DO THAT: When Christians ask when are we going to have a Haunted House, fair, or fashion show? They are told, in New Testament Christian Church we don’t need to do that, the bills are paid from the tithes and offerings. When asked why they would make such a suggestion, they say…because another church they attended did that. In other words that is what they were taught.
THE CHRISTMAS PLAY: It was fun. (We agree, we don’t dispute that it is fun.) The many hours of planning, meetings, coordination and work, the phone calls, invitations, the multiple trips driving around picking people up and everything else that went into the successful Christmas play. Some brought 10 or 15 people to the Christmas play. Many others that were invited came on their own. Everyone loved it; we will do it again next year. But let’s start planning in September, because starting in October, with the haunted house going on, it just wasn’t enough time. Plus we made $200 dollars after expenses. Praise God! It would have been less, but we received an offering after the play, which was a blessing. Plus, a lot said, “even though they would not be here next Sunday, next Christmas we could count on them.” What a blessing. (Tithe is a lot simpler and a lot less time consuming and cheaper in most cases than a Christmas play, why don’t you agree?)
GOD’S METHOD: So we show them, from the New Testament only, God’s method of taking care of the church and minister’s financial needs, teaching them tithe and offerings is the plan that New Testament Christian Church follows (because it’s God’s plan) so we don’t use other methods. Tithe is a lot simpler and less time consuming than selling candy bars at work or door to door candy and magazine sales on Saturday, don’t you agree? The Christian then starts paying tithe and we all move on to something else, no muss no fuss. The churches finances stay healthy, even increase and then we can buy a bus and have steaks at church dinners even more often (we have steaks some times, again, no charge.) Hey, how about a pay raise for the church secretary? Yes, he’s thankful for the pay raise last year, it’s been a blessing.
YOU CAN START TODAY: It is profitable to add at this point that if you attend a non-tithe teaching church and don’t pay tithe or if you tithed at one time but have stopped and would like to start tithing in obedience to the word of God you can, no one can stop you. If you have questions regarding tithe you can review the teaching the first paragraph referenced. Some have tried to discourage you, but no one can stop you. There is a difference. That is why we are accountable…no one can force us to tithe or not tithe or to do anything for that matter. (see above - greg_s Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 7:02 pm: TITLE: “Will You Pay Your Share?” or “Quiz for the Non-Tither”)
DO IT GOD’S WAY: Another point, solvency does not disprove Biblical New Testament tithe. It has been shared that NTCC, as a tithe teaching church, received a $57,799 offering (it could have been tithe) from one person at one time. (That being just one instance of exceptionally large individual offerings and tithe being given to our churches.) Would NTCC have received that same offering if it wasn’t tithe teaching? Maybe, probably, I would hope so, but keep in mind, God blesses obedience! Non-tithe teaching churches have received and do receive large offerings. The fact that the church you attend/pastor is solvent does not disprove the above, it just testifies to the fact that mankind can make it happen. The Pyramids, bake sales, The Brooklyn Bridge, yard sales, The Tower of Babel, The Great Wall of China, et al show us that. The fact that a church would receive a big offering doesn’t disprove the above. People give for different reasons. Most give as unto the Lord, some to gain favor with God, others to be seen of men (in other words – give and then tell people about it), some because they like the pastor, or have relatives in the church, et al. As we know offerings are another issue.
DONE A DIFFERENT WAY: The fact that things can be done another way doesn’t negate the Bible. One can stop drinking or drugging or being a criminal by enrolling in a treatment program. Self help books can improve a persons life. So these people don’t need God? I Trow not. Works are because of salvation not for salvation. Because a person received some of the same benefits associated with salvation by another method does not mean a person shouldn’t become a Christian. The question is not, “Can something be done another way?” or “Are things working out the way we do it?” The question is, “Will an issue (whatever it is) be done God’s way?” Christians do not live there life by the tenants of situational ethics or the end justifies the means. A righteous lie is still a lie, there’s no rightness in it.
MOVING ON: The church that teaches Biblical New Testament tithe will not be preoccupied with money. An example of which is the church I attend as shown above. An exception to this would be a church that is too large for the congregation. The solution would be to move to cheaper digs or increase the size of the congregation by soul winning and visitation. The church that believes in Biblical New Testament tithe can teach it, preach it, receive it and move on to something else. Because New Testament Christian Church follows the New Testament plan to finance the church we have more time for Matthew 28:18-20. Matthew 28:18-20 is our responsibility, God takes care of the rest.
FULL GOSPEL MEANS TEACHING IT ALL: Again, in the interest of further restricting intentional misunderstanding on the topic of tithe the following is re-re-re-resubmitted; the churches need for funds is a non-issue when talking about tithe. The reason tithing is taught in Christian churches to Christians is not to raise funds but because of verses like Matthew 28:20 and II Timothy 3:16-17. The same logic applies to Matthew 28:19. The reason we baptize is because Jesus commanded it not as an excuse to get people wet.
GOD’S PROVISIONS WORK: The provision God has in place to care for the church and minister works. (All Christians paying tithe and giving offerings) When things are done different than the way God directs (commands), the outcome becomes man’s responsibility so the results are not guaranteed. Again, don’t intentionally, publicly misunderstand all the above, we have not said there would not be results, or that the only way a church can survive is tithe, just that there is no guaranteed result, and things must, by necessity, be done the hard way, when things aren’t done God’s way.
AN EXTREME PREOCCUPATION: The non-tithe teaching church must, of necessity, be extremely preoccupied with financial issues. Don’t misunderstand the use of the word preoccupied; I do not mean mentally preoccupied. I mean the congregation and pastor preoccupied with the time consuming activities associated with fund raising. Is that God’s desire? When we do things Gods way, the results are Gods responsibility, so their will be success every time and more time for family, friends, job, and God.
A DOCTRINE OF DEVILS: Not teaching tithe is wrong, being one of many doctrines of devil’s (see pgs 632-633 in your Dake Bible) that has become part of the church, but to not teach tithe and then rely on fund raising schemes to pay the bills is an obscene abuse of the body of Christ as was shown. This brings to mind an illustration: Teaching the church tithing is optional or not to tithe (Again, teaching the church they don’t have to tithe is the same as teaching against it.) and then coercing the church into fund raising schemes to pay the bills is like telling someone, as you take there shoes, not to worry they won’t need them and then taking them mountain climbing. Sure, they’re still able to walk, but it’s more of a struggle, a lot less comfortable and they won’t go as far. It’s an obscene abuse!
INDEPENDENT OUTSIDE SOURCE: Again, what else is ExNTCC wrong about? (So far tithe, world missions, church finances in and out of NTCC. Rules were addressed completely in 2004.) You noticed on these strands any claim or charge by ExNTCC that could be verified by an independent outside source (Bible, public records, et al.) shows ExNTCC wrong. You noticed on these strands for any negative perceptions about NTCC there are positive. Remember, for the Christian it’s still about rules and money. ExNTCC is proven/shown wrong on this strand; Biblically, logically, mathematically; on the topic of money. Based on that fact where does one put the rest of what ExNTTC says? The ExNTCC issues that aren’t based on hard data; opinions, innuendo, et al; what is one to think? Are ExNTCC’r perceptions more accurate that NTCC’r perception? The other talking point of ExNTCC is rules? How about rules?
THE BIBLE ON RULES: Does the Bible have anything to say about rules; both God and man made? Pastors and church members? If one says, “Yeah but (…)” that is a problem. The Bible is powerless against “Yeah but (…)” because the Bible is designed to influence our lives if we choose to allow it. Bosses and employees? Husbands and wives? Parents and children? Christian and sinner? Jesus and man? Does the Bible give the pastor any tools to guide the tractable and intractable church member? Is the Bible silent on the issue of what we say? Are there any verses in the Bible that dictate the right thoughts and attitude? Biblically are there ever extenuating (In other words; “but.”) circumstances? Does the Christian apply the Bible to themselves or to others? Often on these strands we have heard “I know the Bible says this but (…)” Is it wrong for a Christian to keep a sweet spirit? Is the Bible asking too much, is it grievous, when it commands us to keep a sweet spirit? Does the Bible help us regulate our perceptions? That’s what we are left with on this thread; someone’s perception of something is presented as reality. Are appearances ever deceiving? Can the Christian be deceived? Is it possible for the Christian to deceive themselves? So as not to be intentionally misunderstood; the Bible forbids a Christian from basing decisions, or living life, based on perception; either ours or others.
WHOM TO BELIEVE: But, there are opposing views; Some like NTCC some don’t, so whom do we believe? I have never gone to the church that has been portrayed by the Ex’rs as NTCC on this thread. I have looked and haven’t found it. After fourteen (14) plus years I haven’t found it. I know the same people as the ExNTCC'r, have been involved in the same situations as the ExNTCC'r, have been to the same places as the ExNTCC'r, sat in the same classes and services as the ExNTCC'r, gone to the same conferences as the ExNTCC'r, abided by the same rule(s) as the ExNTCC'r, fought the same mental battles as the ExNTCC'r, had the same pastor as the ExNTCC'r but with a different outcome, I am still with NTCC. Why? As follows: I Corinthians 13:4-7; I John 3:14; Ephesians 4:1-3; I John 5:16; and ARTICLES XVI (A), (B) to name a very few. See what we mean? We all know these verses, we have read them, the meaning is very clear. Much of what I have been through is trivial in hindsight. A lot does not matter. I routinely choose not to be offended or think ill of people. Not because of some remarkable spirituality. The goal is average spirituality but I consider myself below average. I look up to and admire many people be they church members, ministers or sinners. I routinely choose not to assign a motive to someone's action or word. I have been a Christian for over 23 years. My experiences within NTCC (14 plus years) have been positive. If I was to base what I believe about NTCC only on what is written by the ExNTCC'r I would not recognize my own family, friends, church and pastor. Put another way: My family, friends, church and pastor, as they are presented on this thread, do not resemble in any way, who they are, based on my long association with them. Again, where is this church the Ex’rs talk about? I’ve looked and haven’t found it. I wouldn’t go there either, and I also would leave if I did. Did the Ex’r become an Ex’r because of NTCC? I wouldn’t go to the NTCC of the Ex’rs; so I don’t.
ALL ISSUES ANSWERED: Between all of the posts referenced in the HANDY INDEX directly below and the strand titled “NTCC/ExNTCC Textbook” all of the issues, accusations and questions presented since Anonymous first Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:50 am have been addressed in some way. We would like to add that others have addressed all of these issues also. It’s a lot of reading but it is all in there if you care to dig it out. Enjoy!...BOOM!
HANDY INDEX: Posted above on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:09 pm: TITLE: The Doctrine of “Tithing” (REVISED 25 July 2005! FOR EVEN MORE CLARITY!) So now tithe is even more difficult to misunderstand! But, also, more easily understood!
Deals with one of many ExNTCC hot button issues. The subject of tithe in the New Testament is addressed in a Bible based, straight forward approach. Short on explanation, long on scripture. Presented in a logical and organized manner that critical thinkers will appreciate…BOOM!
HANDY INDEX CONTINUED: Posted above on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 7:02 pm: TITLE: “Will You Pay Your Share?” or “Quiz for the Non-Tither”
Based on the assumption that everyone should do there part. Thought provoking and informative. As are all our postings…BOOM!
HANDY INDEX CONTINUED: Posted above on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 9:22 am: TITLE: “LET’S PLAY AGAIN”
For adults only: based on this thread. Designed to be played by all skill levels. A versatile and informative game. Learn more about yourself. Only at FACTNet.org…BOOM!
HANDY INDEX CONTINUED: Check out “NTCC/ExNTCC Textbook” only on this thread. See what all the commotion is really all about…BOOM!
THE ISSUE or THE BOTTOM LINE: Again, when Christ’s teachings on tithe are excluded from the doctrine of the church other methods, by necessity, must be substituted to raise money. The financing of the church should be done in accordance with biblical principles, not by misusing (ignoring) the tithing laws of the Bible (New Testament) to favor some other method. The matter of raising funds for Christian activities is not the problem. It is the method that is being used by ministers and churches to raise those funds that is at issue. Any method other than tithes and offerings to finance the church ALWAYS ends up being an abuse of the body of Christ.
BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! THUD! 1…2…3…4…5…6…7…8…9…10 DING, DING, DING……ExNTCC’s K.O.’d. Someone call 911.
SURPRISE ENDING:
NTCC’rs ARE TRUTHFUL: And the winner is…………………………..ExNTCC! (What an upset.) As we can see, based on the below ExNTCC posts, ExNTCC won this final round. (See above - greg_s Tuesday, July 26, 2005 – 9:22 am: TITLE: “LET’S PLAY AGAIN!” RULES FOR THE GAME)
NTCC’rs ARE GOOD SPORTS: YEAAAA! HIP HIP HORAAAY! Congratulations, everyone loves a winner.
NTCC’rs ARE POLITE: Thanks for inviting us.
NTCC’rs ARE METICULOUS: (Post exceeded two printed pages 8/1/05.) (Post exceeded three printed pages 8/2/05.) (Post exceeded four printed pages 8/2/05.) (Post exceeded five printed pages 8/2/05.) (Post exceeded six printed pages 8/3/05.) (Post exceeded seven printed pages 8/3/05.) (Post exceeded eight printed pages 8/3/05.) (Post exceeded nine printed pages 8/4/05.) (Post exceeded ten printed pages 8/6/05.) (Post exceeded eleven printed pages 8/8/05.) (Post exceeded twelve printed pages 8/8/05.) (Post exceeded thirteen printed pages 8/9/05.) (Post exceeded fourteen printed pages 8/11/05.) (Post exceeded fifteen printed pages 8/12/05.) (Post exceeded sixteen printed pages 8/14/05.)
NTCC’r ATTRIBUTES: For more NTCC’r attributes see the strand titled “NTCC/ExNTCC Textbook”
THE END CONTINUED:…911 Called! EEEOOOEEEOOOEEEOOOEEEOOO! SCREECH! SLAM! SLAM! What happened? They appear to have been beaten senseless. What’s that in their hands? Looks like straw! How strange, what does it mean? (MORAL: It means don’t bring straw to a sledgehammer fight.)
BONUS SURPRISE ENDING:
TITLE: “Those Were The Days!”
TRUE STORY; AT THE POOL: I remember when I was a kid and would go to the pool. There would be a line at the base of the high dive ladder. Kids would be lined up on the ladder, two per rung, and some three per rung. Kids spilling out onto the diving board at the top of the ladder eager for there turn. When you got to the top you would have to kick the other kids off, because if they were standing on the board when you were on it you couldn’t bounce as high. Man I loved that; I get happy just thinking about it. Bounce as high as you could do a watermelon, or a back flip. Or jump close to someone so you could slap them on the back as you went into the water. Man, what a blast.
COMMOTION ON THE BOARD: Occasionally there would be a commotion up on the board and everyone would have to get down off the high dive and let a kid down. They wouldn’t jump off the board? Why did they get up there? Who forced them to leave the shallow end? Sometimes they would have an excuse. They have to go to the bathroom, or they didn’t feel good, or they had to go home their mother was calling them. But they were at the top. It was quicker to jump off! They had reasons, If they were true, good reasons. Some that even made sense, if they were true. If the next week they weren’t at the pool what was one to think?................
ALLEGORY: Hey, have you seen SUCH-N-SO lately? // No, but I did talk to him on the phone. // Oh yeah, why hasn’t he been swimming? // Well, he is, SUCH-N-SO said you would say that. SUCH-N-SO could always read people like a book. But, yes, he said of course he swims. Better than ever. He told me on the phone he goes off the high dive and everything now all the time. // Huh, I must have missed him. // No you didn’t, he said he’s swimming at the pool across town, he said the new pool is much better. It is so easy to go off the high dive at the new pool. Everything is better. SUCH-N-SO said the life guards are the best also. There not as strict, he can run and do what he wants. He did say there were a lot more injuries at the new pool, but we have to learn somehow. // I remember he used to have a problem with the head lifeguard. I thought that might have been a problem also. But I don’t mind being wrong about something like that. Well that’s a relief and good to hear! So it was true. He must have really been sick and had to go to the bathroom and heard his mother calling all at the same time, in spite of the fact that he didn’t look sick, didn’t go to the bathroom when he got down and nobody else heard his mother calling. I feel bad that I thought he was scared. // As you should, SUCH-N-SO said just because he goes to another pool doesn’t mean we should assume he has stopped swimming, or is too scared to dive. He said he’s even able to do flips now. Based on what he said he has sure come a long way. He said his mom even gives him more money for snacks. Furthermore he invited us out to see him dive so we know he has nothing to hide and must be telling the truth. // Good point, I hadn’t thought of that. So when is he coming back to this pool? // He said you would ask that also, man SUCH-N-SO can read you like a book, you are so predictable. But so am I, I asked him the same thing and he said he wouldn’t feel comfortable here because people will assume that he’s scared to dive. But we know that’s not the case because he told us different. He said that is another thing, that nobody understands him. All the evidence is just being misunderstood. He didn’t feel like he could talk to anybody at this pool about what happened, and that I was the only one that called him so he knew at least I was his friend. // So, when you were talking to SUCH-N-SO on the phone he kept adding different reasons why he left. // Yeah, I guess. Why? // Never mind, I was just thinking out loud, forget it. // Are you going to take SUCH-N-SO up on his offer for us to come visit? // No, I have all I need at this pool right here, and as far as I’m concerned the best life guards too! I happen to especially like the head life guard. He’s my kind of dude. When I grow up I want to be a lifeguard too. Just so SUCH-N-SO is diving now! And he said he’s doing FLIPS! That’s great! That’s what counts! SUCH-N-SO is happy now and I’m not looking for another pool…………………
EDS NEWS FLASH: Some people have been using the provided edit button to edit and the provided delete button to delete. (CLUE: See edit date below.) It is also suspected that these same people are also using the provided print button to print. This report is a service of EDS (Ex’rs Detection Services) EDS MOTTO: Grasp at straws with every post.
(Message edited by Greg_s on August 16, 2005) |
jdn10305 (jdn10305)
Member
Username: jdn10305
Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.226.181.28
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 10:16 am: |
|
"Some Final Comments..."
Yeah right! Good one! Ha ha!!!
(Message edited by jdn10305 on August 01, 2005) |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
|
TITLE: “Some Final Comments”
For those just tuning in, verses from the New Testament (only) broke the back (of course) of the ExNTCC assertion that all Christians do not pay tithe. This can be seen in the Bible study on tithe (greg_s Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:09 pm) above. Not all the New Testament scriptures that prove “All Christians pay tithe” were used. Also, offerings and support of the ministry wasn’t addressed.
Greg,
Offerings and support of the ministry were address in several posts and this one quote was posted twice:
quote:
We now arrive at the real problem regarding the doctrine of tithing. The matter actually has nothing to do with the need to raise funds to support evangelistic and church activities. It ought to be a foregone conclusion that any minister or church organization that is benefiting the Christians they serve ought to be supported (even generously) by those who associate with the organization and love Christ and his teachings. This is especially so if those Christians are being properly edified and educated in the real teachings of the Holy Scriptures. There is nothing wrong in raising funds for Christian activities, but it should be done in accordance with biblical principles, not by misusing the tithing laws of the Bible. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 55
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 5:51 pm: |
|
Greg,
Since you like stories so much let me share of how that people may even give more when they give as I Cor 9(7). While I was pastoring in South Florida I received a free will offering from a Christian of over 57,000. This was more than all the tithe that church had received in over a 5 year period.
Whatever happened to men as George Muller and all the others who put a box in the back of the church and prayed that God would supply the needs? Where is the faith in your telling us that churches that do not command tithe are some how "Churches that depend on the largess of the congregation are routinely short of money. Many can attest of churches that receive four and five offerings on a Sunday morning. Churches that do not teach Biblical New Testament tithe, by neccessity, are more concerned about money than those that teach Biblical New Testament tithe. In churches that teach tithe the money is there, churches that don’t the money must be coerced from the congregation." This is an ignorant statment coming from someone who probably know the financial situation of very few churches outside NTCC." |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
posted by greg_s on July 26:
Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Matthew 5:20; Luke 8:11-12; Luke 16:16; John 8:37-40; Matthew 28:18-20; Galatians 3:26-29; James 2:20-26; Hebrews 7:1-4; Hebrews 7:7-12; I Peter 2:5; I Peter 2:9. (Advanced players can include verses from the entire Bible.) (Also, this game is versatile; it can be played with any topic.)
Arrange in any order you like.
Now exclude as many verses as you can using whatever reasoning you want.
If you get it down to less than two verses you win.
Good Luck! I have every confidence that many of you will win.
You do not have to post your findings, or present your reasonings. This is individual effort for your own information.
then posted on Aug 1:
For those just tuning in, verses from the New Testament (only) broke the back (of course) of the ExNTCC assertion that all Christians do not pay tithe.
Greg,
Probably, why no one has responded is that none of these verses command that a Christian tithe. None. Every point you mention that has not been responded to has. You have not answered many questions that were asked of you. You lack much credibility.
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
rhnt (rhnt)
New member
Username: rhnt
Post Number: 17
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.250.172.57
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 12:36 am: |
|
Doug, now I know why you quit serving God, you didn't want to pay tithes on that $57,000 you received. What it all boils down to is you have a
problem with thithing. I don't care how many times you try to post in here and quote the bible, at least quote it the right way and quit lying. If you read one of my posts when you first found this website, I pinpointed your heart problem, which was in the pocketbook, so i don't know who you're trying to convince, you and your wife right? enjoy the money, if there's any left. I know all the wolves are getting ready to unload after this post, if they do, all I did was throw a brick over the wall. |
jdn10305 (jdn10305)
Member
Username: jdn10305
Post Number: 72
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.226.181.28
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 1:59 am: |
|
rhnt,
You hypocritical pharisee. You that grace us who have deserted God with your call to repentance on His behalf. Tell us why the headquarters church in Graham, WA should receive 10% of an offering given to a preacher in Miami, FL. Don't use your own reasoning - use scripture.
I would bet you won't even have the guts to respond to this. All you can do is throw your stones and then hide behind the wall of anonymity when questioned about your words.
James Newcomb |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 4:35 am: |
|
rhnt,
When I left that 57,799 was sitting in Graham in escrow in NTCCs bank account. |
blackcat (blackcat)
Junior Member
Username: blackcat
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 216.227.112.18
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 9:18 am: |
|
So Doug you just didn't pay tithe on the 57,000 you received but gave the whole sum to NTCC. Looks like
rhnt put his foot and mouth in a mouse trap!! I wonder who NTCC paid the tithe to ???
Licking my whiskers
Meow |
rusty (rusty)
New member
Username: rusty
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 81.31.197.194
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
|
greg, they are not talking about what other churches do to "make" money, but what NTCC does to make money, and that is by sqeezing it out of the people while they get fat and rich while some of the members get skinny and thin trying to make sure they give enough to the church. NTCC will not show you where the money goes and what it is used for. we know it isn't used to open new churches because if a new church is opened it is by the sweat and money of the laboring pioneer, not the borg who has all this money in escrow for such purposes. to sum it up, we have reason to believe they don't use the money we gave for the purpose we gave it. |
justin_other (justin_other)
Junior Member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 165.228.236.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 2:39 pm: |
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Participants in this thread should be aware that the trollish knave greg_s has been extensively editing his posts *after* they have been responded to, and also deleting his posts entirely *after* they have been responded to. |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
Junior Member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.223.233.130
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
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Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 2:39 pm:
Wow, I got it totally backward--I thought he was a knavish troll...
Vic Johanson
justin_other wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participants in this thread should be aware that the trollish knave greg_s has been extensively editing his posts *after* they have been responded to, and also deleting his posts entirely *after* they have been responded to. |
justin_other (justin_other)
Junior Member
Username: justin_other
Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 165.228.236.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
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Nobody knows except a very few of the Inner Circle, none of which are likely to post that information here. Their own members and ministers are told that it is None of Their Business; how much less of an explanation can they be expected to offer to apostates, quitters, and deserters of God?
However, we can rest assured, from their Doctrinal Statement, that none of it is wasted upon the poor.
 |
free2beme (free2beme)
New member
Username: free2beme
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 65.4.3.132
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 8:48 pm: |
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rhnt ( run,hide,no truth!!) I cannot believe you have the gall to make such dogmatic and ignorant statements! I do not believe for a minute that doug left for money, if you believe that then you really do not have a clue!!
The way you talk, it makes me think you are on the benefiting end of the check book! Does it ever occur to you in your small, spoon fed brain that people leave because they are tired of the lies they are being fed, tired of being treated like trash by morons like you? YOu sit on your high horse shooting darts like you are the angel gabriel.
You say things like you heard it from God. You are just so sure, you know it all, you should post under KIA for Know It All!!!
The more I read the post from people like you the more I am thankful that I escaped the judgmental,snooty,dogmatic atomsphere I used to be entangled in. Thank you for making me realize how lucky I am to have escaped!!
Just a question, if the money was supposed to be used for the church where Doug was laboring, Would that mean that it was to be used at the church in SOuth Florida, and if so, is the brother there getting to use it, to say buy a church building, or even to help out with the church bills? Probably not, he more than likely has to work a full time job to pay his bills and the churches bills ( distracting from the ministry) and then when he comes home tired from work, he must get cleaned up and go check on people, pick them up for church, etc etc, when all the while he could work maybe part time, pay his own bills
and then be able to soul win full time. But I guess it is better that way.
I can say this, Doug and his wife showed me more Christian love than any other people in NTCC!! That is a fact! |
victorjohanson (victorjohanson)
Junior Member
Username: victorjohanson
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.230.101.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
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Doug pastored here in Fairbanks for some years, but I don't think the NTCC leadership ever informed him of the approximately $10,000 in building funds we raised when we had been up here before him. I asked the board whether that money would be restored to Fairbanks, now that the church here had been reopened; the cryptic response was "when the time is right." Guess the planets never achieved the perfect alignment necessary for that to come to pass. Since I furnished almost half of it myself, I would appreciate either a refund or a local NTCC church building. But I'm not holding my breath.
Vic Johanson |
jdn10305 (jdn10305)
Member
Username: jdn10305
Post Number: 74
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.226.181.28
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 7:37 am: |
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Posted by jdn10305:
Don't use your own reasoning to make your case - use scripture.
Greg, you didn't use one scripture reference to back up what you're talking about. All you did was show what kind of mush is processing in your mind, and what you're feeding to people in your church. |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 61
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 8:43 am: |
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Vic,
That is a great point; and I knew nothing of a building fund when I went up there. How about all the fellowship meeting offerings that were going to be use, for what we understood, to open new works, home missions.
I know this may not be the thread for this, and I know what I am going to share many have been through similar sacrifices to make things happen:
When Janet and I graduated from Bible School in June 94 we left to re-pioneer a servicemen's home and church in Fairbanks in July. We took all of our savings, about 2,000, and a 200 dollar offering from the Tilicum church that Rev Ashmore gave us and started on the Alcan Hwy with a loaded Pontaic station wagon.
We drove 50 hours changing drivers to conserve money. When we got to Fairbanks and found out that the Motel 6 was over 100 dollars a night we stayed in a tent for `10 dollars a night to conserve money. We were looking for a servicemen's home which with first, last, and deposit was tough.
Thanks to Vic he had a house that was going to be available September 1. We stayed the rest of our time at the Noah's Rainbow Inn across from the University of AK Fairbanks for the month of August.
It took all we had to get into the house, outfit all the furniture(sitting on the floor eating off an apple crate does not apply to servicemen's works), and fill the oil tank for the upcoming winter(by the way it was -45 on Thanksgiving Day). I am not trying to tell you I walked to work in the snow uphill both ways or drove a dog sled to go soul winning. We had a great time and laugh about it now.
But, why with 10s of millions of dollars stockpiled maybe 100s of millions(some being fellowship meeting offerings, some like Fairbanks have building funds) would NTCC the organization not use the finances for the purpose that the ones who gave thought they would be used for? These type of inconsistencies cause people to rethink this organization.
We went to the conference that fall and made every conference from Fairbanks with great expense. My parents use to wonder and ask what type of organization has their ministers go to two conferences, and move to new works at their own expense. I had no answer.
At that conference I made a 1,000 pledge for the campground. All the pledges were read out loud and tallied up.
Why greg_s, does NTCC "rely upon methods, other than tithe, for their finances?" Is not this a DANGER? Why have so many from my graduating class 50%, 60% maybe more left the organization?
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 62
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 8:52 am: |
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Greg s, why would you edit your post, while I was responding to it? I quoted something from his post and then when I went back it was re-worded. And a new message was posted (Message edited by Greg_s on August 04, 2005). The post was edited while I was responding to it.
Justin_other you were absolutely right.
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
blackcat (blackcat)
Junior Member
Username: blackcat
Post Number: 37
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 216.227.112.18
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 9:03 am: |
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Doug,
All very good points there were a lot of pledges taken up for Panama that the people there never got either soooooo where did ALL that money go? I think Vic was still paying his pledge off when his wife ran into the Rodrigues's and the work had been closed for some time at the point.
Something isn't right here people???
Wake up and smell the roses!!
Meow |
want2know (want2know)
New member
Username: want2know
Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.203
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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Blackcat,
What is your story? Were you in Panama? I've heard a few rumors, but it would be nice to hear what really happened. |
jaxon (jaxon)
New member
Username: jaxon
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 69.146.149.199
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 11:52 am: |
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now they want 40% of all tithe. they say that it goes into an escrow account. |
blackcat (blackcat)
Junior Member
Username: blackcat
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 216.227.112.18
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 9:47 am: |
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want2know,
You can reach me at blackcatntcc@yahoo.com
Meow |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
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posted by greg_s (who knows exactly when because I know most of this statement was not in the origianl post)
"Churches that depend only on the largess of the congregation are routinely short of money. Churches that rely on the donation box at the back of the church receive, for all practical purposes, nothing in the box! Unless you let the box sit unemptied for great lengths of time. (Personal experience talking.)"
Greg_s,
What personal experience are you talking about? You sound like you are an expert on all other churches outside ntcc. After leaving ntcc Janet and I visited many different churches and met wonderful brothers and sisters all throughout Broward County and Miami-Dade. Also, we went to Virginia to visit the church my family back home goes to faithfully.
The church is called New Covenant Church and is in Hampton, Virginia. They have about 400 people that attend weekly and they do not take up any type of offering in any service; they have a box at the back so people can put their offerings in.
The church has a finance committe that reports where the church finances go. In 2004 they made avaiable to their congregation reports of where the money went. They received over 900,000 in 2004 with that box. And listen to this, they gave over 1/3 of that to support 60+ missionaries, some fully some partial. Over 300,000 was given to world missions. How much has ntcc given to world missions over its entire 30+ years? Not how many pledges taken, but actually given?
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 66
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 8:32 pm: |
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greg_s
Some things you did not share about your research of New Covenant Church in Hampton, VA, and I am sure you DONT want to be "INTENTIONALLY MISUNDERSTAND." I went to the web site, as you or any one can and read about their world missions. What you failed to mention is that the missionaries are supported partially by the church, but also the congregation gives directly to the missionaries themselves. Did you overlook this intentionally? This is cut and pasted from their web site.
"Our missionaries are supported from our church budget in various amounts, ranging from $100-$850 per month. This provides between 10-25% of their financial needs. They must raise the remaining funds themselves. Should you wish to support any of these mission efforts, send a check to New Covenant Church and attach a note designating the area or project you wish to support."
Also, could you please share with us the number of missionaries that are supported by NTCC full time and where they are located? If anyone can please do.
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
letgodbetrue (letgodbetrue)
Junior Member
Username: letgodbetrue
Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 1:03 am: |
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To blackcat: I love it when you speak of yourself in third person. |
blackcat (blackcat)
Junior Member
Username: blackcat
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 216.227.112.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 1:36 am: |
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There is no third person here just me!
Meow |
blackcat (blackcat)
Junior Member
Username: blackcat
Post Number: 45
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 82.96.100.100
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 1:55 am: |
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Ohhhhhhhh and I loves you too!
Meow |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 152.163.101.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 5:57 am: |
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posted and edited by greg_s
"NEW COVENANT CHURCH (NCC): New Covenant Church of Hampton, Va. was drug onto this sight by Unreliable Source, we’ll choose to assume Unreliable Source meant well. New Covenant Church was showcased, by Unreliable Source, as an example of what a church could/should be doing with regards to, among other things, support of world missions. Personally, we don’t know of a better example that could have been picked. Based on their web sight, there history of supporting world missions is exemplary. I am thankful for the things I read on the New Covenant Church’s web sight concerning world missions, and what they are able to do financially for missionaries, it is truly remarkable."
greg_s.
The main reason I brought New Covenant Church into this discussion is because of your supposed expertise on churches that cannot make it by putting a box in the back of the church and trusting God that Christians will give "every man according as he purposeth in his heart," but using Malachi 3 to command that all Christian must pay 10% of their gross income to a minister or they are "God robbers."
I am no expert on Churches. I wrote about New Covenant Church because I attended there faithfully from the age of 5 in 1973 until I met A Bradeen while in the USArmy in 1990. I would attend the church whenever I was visiting my family while I was in the Army, Bible School, and in the ministry. It was the love and commitment of these "God robbers" that was a factor in me rethinking the methods and doctrine of ntcc and ultimately leaving the org.
Your desire to prove not Biblically but by your own reliable arguments that a church’s trust to meet their expenses must command that all Christians must give 10% of their gross income to a minister using Malachi chapter 3 as stated in the ntcc doctrinal statement to meet their bills does not fly(and really being a part of ntcc as a pastor for over nine years, I know that they feel that the tithe is not intended go to the church bills or world missions or helping others(as stated in the doctrine statement), but as you argued against yourself they must instituted other pledges to support the running of the church(Sunday Night Budget Offering), campground pledges, new church construction(ie: Graham chapel pledge; building fund pledges), and helping world missions(Panama Pledge, Philippine pledge,etc) “off the largess of the congregation” as you stated.
New Covenant has met their expenses and support for world missions for many years, 30+. You tried to find a fault with them that they had a debt of 25,000+ dollars. Maybe you should have done some more research to find out what that debt was. A hurricane damaged the roof of the church, which is paid for, and they took out a loan to cover it trusting God that He would provide the finances throughout the year without taking away from other outreaches.
The purpose was not to compare world missions of a single church to a “world-wide” organization with hundreds of “licensed and ordained” ministers to one church with one pastor as you have done, but if you want to go there we could certainly continue this on another thread about the world missions of the NTCC org and discuss just exactly how many full time missionaries are supported by these “hundred” or so churches.
Keep on Editing, Brother
Doug Allen allengatorz@juno.com |
imaskingwhy (imaskingwhy)
Junior Member
Username: imaskingwhy
Post Number: 48
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.58.96.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 6:32 am: |
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Where are all these missionaries? I love it when people set up straw men. Greg, are you speaking for the leaders of ntcc? Do they know about your ramblings? Bryan David Hill |
gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)
Intermediate Member
Username: gone_to_pa
Post Number: 189
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.78.102.23
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 9:32 pm: |
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I want to ask a question.
Does God love a cheerful giver?
How cheerful will you be if when you tithe, your gas and electric bill are turned off and your kid has chronic brocnhitis, you have emphazema, and it's 110 degree's that day. Also to make matters worse you live in Baltimore City where even when the sun goes down the streets retain the heat.So at night it's about 95 degree's and you have to get some sleep to support your family, but can't because the little bit of food you have is going to go bad in the frig and if that's not enough. Someone you know gave you one of those big freezers and you have it almost full of meats and other foods.
For some strange reason I can't believe in my heart that because it's God's money anyway, so the first ten percent that comes of the top has you sitting in the dark for the week. Don't tell me about all the aid you can get. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. Now here comes all the legalistic folks trying to say God will provide. I have seen when He doesn't. What do you tell your kid whose goldfish collection just died for lack of air in the little tank. How about me now, because I tithed, my nebulizer isn't working so I'm having problems breathing. Wow call 9-1-1, I'm having an asthma attack. Sure glad i tithed. If you want to read something about organized church and it wasn't always the tithe. The New Testament Church never tithed. They sold their homes and everything. They became a community. A community of believers. We have nothing today that represents the New Testamnet church. I mean the real one, not this one you all are talking about. They took me upstairs to a dark room and started yaabaa-daabaaa-dooo. Tongues in the dark is to freaky. My God is a God of light. Get out of the Old Covenant please. Go to ptmin.org and read about the real church as it should be> |
steppenwolf (steppenwolf)
New member
Username: steppenwolf
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 207.69.139.154
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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As a cheerful giver you should be a cheerful collector of the blessings of God, but the way Davis set up his program absolutely defeats that purpose. As a member or regular minister you are only a laborer working for the BOSS, who "deserves" what God has "given" to him for his "service" to God and souls, and because he's been thru a lot, so you can have a "HOLINESS" church to attend.
They get on you and blast you from the pulpit because you are so sorry that haven't been able to get your act together, for your lack of leadership and "VISION"; and by the way, a cliche they always use and even was a conference title: "Without vision people perish", they use it out of context (Like a lot of other verses they use for their doctrines and theology), because, originally, by vision the Bible means prophecy, not businness driven vision. But how you're going to get your act together, if you are always busy working for them, they don't really give you room to work on your own projects. The reason why Davis has "achieved" so much it's because he's always been his own man, and he never had to answer to anyone when it came to pursuing his goals, and even if he answered to anybody, it was never the same way people have to answer to him.
I don't care how busy he claims he's been before "working for God", him and Kekel never had to endure half of what everybody else has to go through, that's why they've always had time to work "for God" and prepare themselves. People at NTCC don't gain much sense of achievement because, even the souls they are suppose to win for God, are not really their accomplishment, because they aren't allowed to deal with them, the main purpose is to bring them to church, so the MAN of god can preach to them. You're not allowed to do anything on your own, because God doesn't talk to you, your vision depends on Davis'; and if yours differs from his, guess what? You are a "loser".
It works exactly like those pyramids where people at the lowest level work to make rich the ones at the highest levels, and they always tell you: "Look at me, with dedication and a vision you can be even bigger than me, it's up to you, I started just like you". And they actually started from the bottom, what they don't tell you about is all the trickiness and back stabbing they "had to do" in order to get there; and it's exactly the way it works at NTCC and HOP. You look up to the MAN of god and the board members, and you envision yourself in their midst. Yes, but you have to be a yes man and play their politics, obeying "PASTOR" blindly, because he is God's anointed; by the way, another observation here: When David said he wouldn't touch God's anointed he was talking about not touching Saul physically, but the fact that Saul was God's anointed at one time didn't keep David from acknowledging how messed up Saul was, and David was conveying that to Michal (2 Samuel 6.21), when she mocked him for being a child before God. So, even if Davis was anointed by God at one time in his life, he is not anymore, and when we addressed his devilish works shouldn't make us a "heretic", and as gone to pa puts it, NTCC/HOP don't have nothing to do with the real church; they are just a business that manipulates the Bible to take advantage of others. Peace. |
bigboy (bigboy)
Member
Username: bigboy
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.79.28.48
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:40 pm: |
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http://www.freeiPods.com/?r=8976214 |
doug_allen (doug_allen)
Member
Username: doug_allen
Post Number: 71
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 205.188.117.13
| | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics sheds some interesting light; tithing was first demanded in the 4th century and was strongly denounced by many Church leaders. It states in Vol. 12 under Tithes:
"In the Christian Church the need of supporting the clergy, who were early withdrawn from secular business, was recognized, but the system of tithe was not generally resorted to for several centuries. Until the 4th century (the 300's AD) little is heard of it. There were Church leaders, however, who strongly opposed tithing. Epiphanius (AD 315-403) says that tithe is no more binding than circumcision.
"It was inevitable, however, that as the Church spread far and wide, circumstances should make it necessary to fall back upon rule, based upon legal provision, and the old standard of a tenth was set up, and the Christian priest was compared in this matter to the Jewish priest and Levite. But this species of ecclesiastical property was acquired not only by degrees, but with considerable opposition.
"The moral duty of paying tithe was not generally taught, but even after it was made a matter of law, tithe was paid reluctantly and irregularly. In AD 585 the Council of Macon ordained its payment, while priests were to use it in helping the poor and in redeeming captives. He who refused to pay it was to be excommunicated.
"Other councils enjoined it, but it was not until the time of Charlemagne that it became matter of law. In one of his capitularies he ordained it to be paid to churches and clergy...and doubtless it was now more generally rendered. While the ecclesiastical tithe was usually paid to the bishop, who apportioned it, Charlemagne's capitulary regulated its division into three parts-for the bishop and clergy, for the poor, and for the support of church fabrics (building). Once the payment of tithe became a matter of legal due, excommunication or temporal penalties were decreed against those who refused to pay it.
"In the course of time, however, episcopal control of tithes and their steadily increasing use for the erection and maintaining of churches overshadowed their original purpose. Once their very special character of being used exclusively for charity was obscured, the encroachment on the rights of the poor was continuous. By the 12 century, tithes were simply a form of clerical revenue." |
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