| Author |
Message |
    
cjv (cjv)
Intermediate Member
Username: cjv
Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.177.85.203
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 10:07 am: | 
|
LDS Testimony: I TESTIFY TO YOU, I KNOW THE BOOK OF MORMON IS TRUE. I KNOW JOSEPH SMITH WAS A PROPHET OF GOD. I KNOW THE MORMON CHURCH IS TRUE.
This church demands that we call it a Christian Church, when it in fact, couldn’t be Christian.
The above quote is in essence, the very core of what Mormons believe and is repeated by every Mormon over and over from the moment a Mormon can understand what they hear their parents whisper in their ear only to spout it back out to other Mormons. Recognizing that this is one way of brainwashing members, we can still see that not one word of that statement of Mormon beliefs reflects true Christianity.
Not one word mentions Jesus Christ, the very reason there is Christianity. Not one word refers to the Bible or the fact that there is only one God and one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. Odd considering this church demands it be referred to as a Christian Church while defying every fundamental teaching of Christianity.
Historical, Orthodox Christianity has never used the statement above as any teaching, dogma or basis for Christianity ever. The statement above was never uttered by anyone in the Bible. Therefore, it would be only logical to follow that while the Latter-day Saints like to insist that their organization is Christian – no less the only true Christian Church (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30), the fact is, it is not Christian at all.
The Bible tells us what it takes to be saved and to become a Christian. Mormonism, by that statement above, proves that it leads down a separate road of idol worship. The LDS Church is essentially demanding that the faithful Mormon hold the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church above the Bible, Jesus Christ and essentially, God. This is not what Christians do or believe.
If you seek God, if you are feeling as if you need to find why we are even here on this earth, the Mormon Church is not the path to take. There is no salvation taught there, just man-made dogma based on fantasy, rather than the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Intermediate Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 472
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
|
CJV:
LDS Testimony: I TESTIFY TO YOU, I KNOW THE BOOK OF MORMON IS TRUE. I KNOW JOSEPH SMITH WAS A PROPHET OF GOD. I KNOW THE MORMON CHURCH IS TRUE.
Of course I would not say the last bit, but that I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Of course you just use the anti-LDS tactic of pretending that we are the Mormon church and ignore the churches real name – why? – well of course because we state clearly that we believe in Jesus Christ, and you just don’t like that.
This church demands that we call it a Christian Church, when it in fact, couldn’t be Christian.
I’ve made no demands of the sort – but of course the basis of your attacking us is the pretence that we make such a demand – whatever makes you happy.
The above quote is in essence, the very core of what Mormons believe and is repeated by every Mormon over and over from the moment a Mormon can understand what they hear their parents whisper in their ear only to spout it back out to other Mormons. Recognizing that this is one way of brainwashing members, we can still see that not one word of that statement of Mormon beliefs reflects true Christianity.
Of course you are pretending (again) that we make this into some sort of chant or mantra. We do not. You don’t make it clear why a parent would need to whisper it in their child’s ear – unless of course you are manipulating the feelings of an intended reader. Just how exactly is what you say “recognizing that this is one way of brainwashing members”? – in fact you say nothing to support this claim. Please tell us all, what is “brainwashing”, how many years of experience you have in recognising it and what research you have done in LDS homes that allows you to come up with this conclusion? – the remainder of that sentence does not relate properly to the first part.
Not one word mentions Jesus Christ, the very reason there is Christianity. Not one word refers to the Bible or the fact that there is only one God and one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. Odd considering this church demands it be referred to as a Christian Church while defying every fundamental teaching of Christianity.
Well anyone can see that, but what you fail to explain is why you are pretending that this is all a Latter-day Saint would say. You purposely make it seem that I as LDS would not first state quite clearly that I believe in God my Eternal father, and in his only begotten son Jesus the Christ, and that through Him and His sacrifice in the garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross he bled and died for me, so that the bonds of death and sin will be loosed from me, making me free to choose, and free to return to live with Him again. Now of course you would not want someone to think a Mormon could say something like that because it would defeat the purpose of this post of yours – but hard luck, I do believe that – in fact I know that.
In fact, lets blow the whole of that ill-conceived and false statements of your to pieces, here are what LDS commonly called the 13 Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on ofhands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
JOSEPH SMITH.
So, cjv how do you a professed “real” Christian justify misrepresenting us in such an obvious, and intentional manner?
Historical, Orthodox Christianity has never used the statement above as any teaching, dogma or basis for Christianity ever. The statement above was never uttered by anyone in the Bible. Therefore, it would be only logical to follow that while the Latter-day Saints like to insist that their organization is Christian – no less the only true Christian Church (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30), the fact is, it is not Christian at all.
But you fail to mention that this is your paraphrasing of a much deeper and very much Christ based testimony – your cheeks should be blushing in embarrassment at how desperate you are to belittle this portion of Gods creation.
The Bible tells us what it takes to be saved and to become a Christian. Mormonism, by that statement above, proves that it leads down a separate road of idol worship. The LDS Church is essentially demanding that the faithful Mormon hold the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church above the Bible, Jesus Christ and essentially, God. This is not what Christians do or believe.
Corr, talk of jumping to conclusions – ever tried the triple jump? How on earth does your purposely chosen part testimony show anything about idol worship? As for the rest of your statement – well read the 13 Articles af Faith again – and leran some FACTS about what we believe (did you make all this up yourself?)
If you seek God, if you are feeling as if you need to find why we are even here on this earth, the Mormon Church is not the path to take. There is no salvation taught there, just man-made dogma based on fantasy, rather than the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Talk of man made and fantasy – cjv, I say it once again you are feeding from a trough of filthy lies about my beliefs – I encourage you to take a break, look around, and find out some truths. You are fooling yourself that what you say above is the core of what I believe.
Now to another point, more personal to you. I have asked you over and over as to why you have chosen to single out my Church for your attacks, and you have each time just ignored my question.
So it has been left to me to try and work out why, and I think I might have.
I have a strong feeling it leads back to that telephone call in show – the one where all of the callers were opposing your view, except for one – and then your disgust (correct me if it the wrong word) at learning that the person who supported and defended your point of view was MORMON. What shame!, to believe the same as a Mormon. Now, granted I understand you were still involved with the TWI at the time and blame this co-incidence of belief upon your being brainwashed. What I don’t understand is why you, obviously an intelligent woman, decided that because of this co-incidence, that the suffering caused to you by THAT group had anything to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It does not, has not and will not behave and act in the way that the TWI did and does – yet I feel the anger you have inside cannot be controlled, and thus you feel the necessity to “take it out” on a religion you know little of.
I reckon it’s not far off the truth is it? |
cjv (cjv)
Intermediate Member
Username: cjv
Post Number: 126
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.177.85.203
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
|
The number 1 "belief" of Mormonism is very misleading as it does not truthfully expose the entire belief of that statement in full:
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
What is most conveniently left out is that the Eternal Father is one god and Jesus Christ is another god and the Holy Ghost another god according to Mormon doctrine. This is resoundly anti-Christian and frankly blasphemous.
It also leaves out the fact Mormons believe that they themselves can turn into gods, just like "the Eternal Father" and Jesus Christ. And that by being a perfect Mormon, and marrying another Mormon in a Mormon Temple Ceremony, this godhood status can be achieved in the "afterlife" or top level of Mormon heaven. This godhood entitles the husband and wife (god and goddess) to rule over their planet earth and populate this planet with their "spirit babies" that the wife produces by pregnancy and then "birth."
This is what was entirely left out of that number one "belief" and is completely deceptive as to what Mormons really believe. That statement taken at face value does seem mainstream, but underneath lies the deception of what was left OUT of the statement. Cults very often do this -- save their most bizarre teachings and beliefs for "behind closed doors" discussion.
Therefore, simply taking the number one belief in entirety disqualifies Mormonism from being Christian quite absolutely.
And that statement that is the testimony of every Mormon -- you are not being truthful if you pretend Mormons do not say this continually in private and in public in front of Mormon members throughout their entire Mormon lives. You are also not being truthful if you insist that parents do not stand with their child before their Mormon congregation, making their child recite this mantra. If the child is too young to memorize the words, the Mormon parent whispers in their child's ear as they parrot exactly what the parent whispers. That is the truth about what happens, and a very, very important statement that must not only be believed by every single Mormon, but it must be continuously repeated publicly by every Mormon.
It is a vital, most important belief that Mormons must believe, and you and I both know this. Do not attempt to diminish the importance of this LDS teaching. If you do, then as I said, you are not being truthful at all. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Intermediate Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 474
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
|
CJV: Interesting to note that you fail to defend ANY of the false statements you make above.
The articles of faith were never meant to be a full exposition of LDS belief, as you would know had you looked them up before today.
I am afraid that the only deception being pepetrated here is by you - instead of defending your statements, you turn and make further attacks - pretending and hoping that anyone reading this will not see that you have no basis for your incorrect statements about my testimony.
Your attempts at "proving that Mormons are not christian - absolutely" simply fail over and over again.
I do not pretend Mormons do not say this over and over again in private I KNOW THEY DON'T - you seem to be forgetting one thing, I AM a member of that Church - you are not, I have been into many hundreds of LDS homes - you have not - I know what I say is true - what you say is not. I have NEVER once seen a child stood up in front of a congregation and made to say what you claim - what idiot is telling you this stuff - and why on earth are you so willing to believe it?
It is importnat to me that I believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God - but sorry to smash the delusion, but it is you that is attempting to blow the importance of this out of all proportion, not I that is diminishing it. Wow - you really are missing the boat. |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 319
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 24.237.120.194
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
|
This is a major problem with mormon beliefs. As stated by jd above, the mormon Articles of Faith were never meant to be a full exposition of mormon belief. Mormons find it impossible to pin down their core belief. Chrisitianity, on the other hand, is all about God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, being one, and God's will for our life. Can mormonism do that? |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 320
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 24.237.120.194
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
|
This is a major problem with mormon beliefs. As stated by jd above, the mormon Articles of Faith were never meant to be a full exposition of mormon belief. Mormons find it impossible to pin down their core belief. Chrisitianity, on the other hand, is all about God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, being one, and God's will for our life. Can mormonism do that? |
yaakov (yaakov)
Intermediate Member
Username: yaakov
Post Number: 458
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.205.188.53
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
|
How can you say that Christianity has a core belief? Yall have dozens of different Christian denominations, each with their own different core belief. |
elysium (elysium)
New member
Username: elysium
Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 24.23.3.71
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 8:46 pm: |
|
Yaakov, Hi, i dont think we have met; greetings friend...are you LDS, or are you of a different Faith?
but...really? Different core belief?
Lets define the CENTRAL core of Christianity; That Jesus Christ, the Son of the ONE and ONLY God (indeed, the second of the Lord's triune nature) came to Earth to die upon the Cross, an innocent for the guilty, as only God could, and in love, so that God's wrath for a depraved and rebelious mankind would be satisfied (justice) and yet allowing Him to show mercy to those He would. Those who believe in this atonement, and that our Lord, was resurrected and is alive again, have been granted mercy and are new creations in Christ, reborn and forever justified by his grace, as a gift, apart from works.
There are many groups who ascribe to several of these points, but revamp them, or change them to suit, but evewn those these groups claim to be Christian, they have no claim to orthodoxy.
Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons (or, if it is such an issue, those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) and others who would redefine who God is, or what Christ did, or our relation to Him, can be noted as non-Christian because they deny the claims of orthodoxy. If they wish to argue that we are wrong, so be it, let them argue, but it is academically dishonest to claim an orthodoxy that one's own doctrines deny.
How much have you actually looked into Christian denominations, beyond that which you have heard second-hand (see my LDS friends, it is improper to decry us for not "actually looking into beliefs" and then do it yourself)? See, look at the differences between Methodists and Baptists, between Calvinists and Arminists, and you have arguments about specifics, usually inconsequential, sometimes of some import, but not to the effect that one group cannot be called Orthodox. Admittedly, this gets a bit harrier when one throws Catholocism into the mix, but if you look at the way i defined our Central belief, even the Protestant and Catholic split is not great enough to overcome the unity of believers in Christ.
If you wish to submit that each denomination has a "different core belief," please, by all means, submit official creeds of two denominations that contradict each other at their core...then we can talk about something of actual depth...
Let me add one more thing here, something i posted earlier regarding this;
Let me start from the very top;
In Joseph Smith's first vision, he claims that God said that all the claims of existing Christian churches were an "abomination in His sight." (Joseph Smith-History 1:19)
Verse 19 notes that Smith claimed that God said all Christian sects were "wrong," an "abomination," and that the "professors were all corrupt."
Lets look at the implications, shall we? We have a man, who claims to have seen God, and have God tell him that as of now, all Christians in the world have, to put it softly, missed the point. The very foundations of the LDS church (for, it is easily argued that this is the true beginning of it) are therefore shown to be antagonistic (to say the least) with existing, orthodox Christianity.
Smith goes on to claim a restoration of Christianity, to the point where it is a direct continuation of the state of things before the Great Apostasy (an LDS idea)...Smith makes a direct claim to a remarkable authority, and the current incarnation of the church uses that claim to assert superiority over the current incarnation of orthodox Christianity...
The way i see it, Orthodox Christianity makes a number of fundamental claims (and yes, while her sects do differ on certain points, the fundamentals are the same...hence the term 'orthodox'); a sect will either endorse, or deny those claims, and their response, be it for or against, will either put them in, or out, of the orthodox camp.
I think, and certainly hope, that all those present will accept the statement that the LDS fundamental doctrines, contradicts in too many places, the orthodox fundamental docrines...as especially noted in Smith's definitive denial as noted above in his own 'History'...
So, this is where we are at; Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity make mutually exclusive claims (and yes, i am speaking of the CURRENT LDS beliefs, not Adam-God, not Polygamy, or anything now disavowed, but rather the current beliefs), and thus are irreconcilable.
It would be inane for any Orthodox Christian to call a completely orthodox LDS member a Christian, because these fundamentals are not fundamentals for said LDS member. This is not to say that there arent those in the LDS church who actually hold orthodox beliefs, but rather that the church is not orthodox.
The issue then becomes discovering who is right, but i dont see any way, with any academic or theological honesty intact, to call the LDS church, by Orthodox standards, Christians (and the same going in the reverse)...
I know that this is vexing for the average LDS member, but they should remember that the church that they belong to calls the Orthodox Body "an abomination," and thus should not be confused as somehow being on the same page.
with love,
Elysium |
joesdad (joesdad)
Intermediate Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 476
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
|
GC: You say:
"This is a major problem with mormon beliefs. As stated by jd above, the mormon Articles of Faith were never meant to be a full exposition of mormon belief. Mormons find it impossible to pin down their core belief. Chrisitianity, on the other hand, is all about God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, being one, and God's will for our life. Can mormonism do that?"
You know full well that Jesus Christ is firmly at the centre of LDS beliefs, how do you know, well for one I have told you so. In reality, the only difference seems to be that I do not, for very good reasons believe in the 3in-1 Godhead that you do. Whay do you pretend the gulf is so wide between our beliefs, when it is not?
Elysium: Of course we (LDS) say that the altering of the core beliefs has been done to create what you call Orthodox Christianity (sort of like, you give it a fancy name to claim it as the ORIGINAL - when it is no more that one result of a gradual corruption of the true principles over a much longer period, so it seems to give it credibility). So Yaakov - just as confused as before? |
elysium (elysium)
New member
Username: elysium
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.203
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
|
Joesdad...that is kond of the main debate
Your position is that the Orthodox faith today is a deviation from the truth, whereas mine is that the LDS faith is the deviation; Fine, we disagree, but the point i was making is that neither side can, with any honesty, claim that BOTH are Christians, since we each make mutually exclusive claims. I was simply saying that we shoudl STOP trying to say that we are so similiar, when we do have a gulf of differences.
JD, you wrote...
"You know full well that Jesus Christ is firmly at the centre of LDS beliefs, how do you know, well for one I have told you so. In reality, the only difference seems to be that I do not, for very good reasons believe in the 3in-1 Godhead that you do. Whay do you pretend the gulf is so wide between our beliefs, when it is not?"
A point by point rejoinder...
1) You say that Jesus Christ is firmly at the center of LDS beliefs...how much deviation on exactly who Christ is can a person have before his beliefs are heretical and no longer valid? If i say that Christ is at the center of my beliefs, and then say that Christ was a rabbit (perhaps an inflammatory example), can i be said to be possessing an efficacious faith? We disgree as to who Christ is...is the gap wide enough that one of us is still in our sins?
You also said that you have very good reasons for not believing in the trinity...please, rather than suggest that your reasons have merit, demonstrate said merit for us all by outlining said beliefs (i realize that time constrainted may have prevented your doing so, so i wait for your response when you are able to give it)...
Lastly, you asked GD why he "pretends" that a wide gulf exists...let me ask you this; was God once a man? If He was, then you argue a different God than I! Does God have anyone in authority over Him? Does He worship a God? If so, then you are talking about a different God than I! How many more examples can i give than this? If our only disagreement was about the Godhead, i would still call that an unbridgeable gulf!
wiht love,
Elysium |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 326
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 24.237.122.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 1:44 am: |
|
Elysium, Of course, the gulf is more than merely wide. As you say, it is unbridgeable. Why is it that mormons want to be called something they are not (Christians)? The only clear reason is that without 'borrowing' the name Jesus Christ, they know that their 'religion' is so foreign, blasphemous, and lacking, what they do have is no different than; witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, and everything that people searching for God would immediately run away from. Though they continually try to slowly separate themselves from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's teachings, without them their 'so called scriptures' would mean nothing but tripe. And yet, to become Christian, they have to do so. That is their dilemna. A very sad and wasteful one. |
yaakov (yaakov)
Intermediate Member
Username: yaakov
Post Number: 460
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 63.148.234.6
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
|
Joesdad
So Yaakov - just as confused as before?
Don’t you know it. I read Elysium’s post several times. While admittedly, I am from the outside looking in, it seems to me that he is papering over the differences between the various denominations. Didn’t Protestants and Catholics split about 800 hundred years ago? I wouldn’t have thought to label them as “unified believers in your deity”.
Perhaps, I am wrong. Joesdad, in your opinion, do you think that Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, and Protestants all have the same core beliefs? |
elysium (elysium)
New member
Username: elysium
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 24.23.3.71
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
|
Yaakov; Let me give an example...(and by the way, Baptists and Methodists are denominations within Protestantism, not separate or antagonistic to it)...Also, realize that i am speaking only to the 'separation amongst protestant groups', and not the Catholic Protestant split, which i can talk about later, if you wish...
Martin Luther never intended to split from the Catholic church, but rather reform it, however, a split is what happened. After Luther, the various major players in the reformation (which occured about 500 years ago), all agreed on five major points of scripture, called the "Five Solas"
These were, as follows (taken from Wikipedia)
Sola fide ("by faith alone")
Justification (that is, becoming right before God) comes through faith only, not good works, though in the classical protestant scheme, saving faith will always be accompanied by good works. This doctrine can be summarized with the formula "Faith yields justification and good works" and is contrasted with the Catholic formula "Faith and good works yield justification." This doctrine is sometimes called the material cause of the Reformation because it was the central doctrine disputed by Martin Luther.
Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
The Bible is the only inspired and authoritative Word of God and is accessible to all (that is, perspicuous and self-interpreting). This doctrine is directly opposed to the teaching of the Catholic Church that scripture can only be authentically interpreted through Holy Apostolic Tradition by the Magisterium (that is, the Pope and bishops at church councils). This doctrine is sometimes called the formal cause of the Reformation because it was the underlying cause of disagreement over sola fide.
Solus Christus ("Christ alone"; sometimes Solo Christo, "by Christ alone")
Christ is the exclusive mediator between God and man. Neither Mary, the saints, nor priests (other than Christ himself) can act as mediator in bringing salvation. This doctrine is contrasted with the Catholic doctrines of the intercession of saints and of the function of priests.
Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
Salvation comes by grace only, not through any merit on the part of the sinner. Thus salvation is an unearned gift. This doctrine is a response to the Catholic doctrine of merit.
Soli Deo gloria ("Glory to God alone")
All the glory is due to God alone, since he did all the work — not only the atonement on the Cross, but even granting the faith which allows men to be saved by that atonement.
Now, these reformers all agreed to these key points as Central Doctrines...yet after the Reformation, a whole host of "demoninations" were created...and why? Because Certain reformers disagreed on certain MINOR issues...for example, the Eucharist (or Lord's Supper, or Communion). Some reformers believed that Christ was completely, and literally present in communion, while others believed it was a memorial offering...the groups went their own separate ways, but retained the five Solas...
This is a perfect example of a dispute over minor issues causing a split, yet not so much as to destroy the unity of believers in Christ... |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 350
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.52.128
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
|
The Christian faith offers continuity with our deepest ancestral roots. Those who trust Christ are accepting the same Creator and Lord worshiped by Adam, Abraham, Sarah, and Solomon. Jesus didn't reject the past. He was the God of the past (John 1:1-14). When He lived among us, He showed us how to live according to the original plan. When He died, He fulfilled the whole Old Testament sacrificial system. And when He rose from the dead, the salvation He offered fulfilled God's promise to Abraham that through his descendant He would bring blessing to the whole world. The Christian faith is not new with Christ. From Genesis to Revelation it is one story. It is His story-and ours (Acts 2:22-39; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8).
from RBC ministries
A question for mormons: If you truly believe the Book of Mormon, doctrinally, how do you accept the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price since these books teach different concepts?
And: Why do Mormons approach people with the Book of Mormon if it doesn't contain their most important doctrines? Why don't they give out copies of their other scriptures instead of the Book of Mormon?
Please pray that God will continue to bring Christians into the Mormon's life. As anyone can see, these threads are drifting off. Be that as it may, mormons need our prayers, even as we pray for one another. (Let me add, it is my hope that Solopilot is well, and that the Holy Spirit has touched his heart.)
Yaakov, Does Judaism teach that a Messiah will come? |
|
