| Author | Message | ||
     Tigger |
From: Operation Clambake Forum: Media Reports: Polygamy's Protector neil c (Freebeing) Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 09:52 pm Polygamy's Protector How can an attorney of conscience defend plural marriage? Ask John Bucher. Salt Lake City Weekly, UT Sept 4 03 [Bucher works pro bono with CCHR] http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2003/feat_2003-09-04.cfm [not posted to a.r.s.] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tigger (Tigger) Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:22 am Hi Neil, Just a reminder that Heber Jentzsch's father had eight wives and 40 + children. The whole thing is rather funny. Attorney Bucher is an alcoholic and shot off a gun in his bedroom. Bucher says he was firing a gun into the wall above the bed where his girlfriend was reclining to scare off gang members because he was too drunk to go outside. Bucher also says a lot about the rights of individuals.....wonder what he thinks of the "Sign-away-your-individual-rights-to-Scientology" release form? quotes from the article: "Bucher works pro bono with an organization called the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), which fights the involuntary confinement and forced medication of the mentally ill in state psychiatric hospitals. (CCHR was founded in 1969 by the Church of Scientology but is not currently funded by it.)" Gee is Mr. Hyde not a monster if someone besides Dr. Jekylll feeds him? "Bucher, like the CCHR, feels that many of these people aren't a threat to anyone and that their involuntary confinement smacks of old Soviet Union tactics when communists put political prisoners and other undesirables away under the guise of mental illness. "Sandra Lucas, executive director of CCHR's Utah Chapter, found in Bucher a valuable ally and an acute legal mind. "I work with him because, in a time and age when lawyers have a bad rap, John is one who has not sold his soul. He is a loudmouth and has no bedside manner, but he has a commitment to what makes America great." Lucas said." Aha.....yeah, sure.....letting old men marry as many children as they want is what makes America great. Tigger | ||
| Tigger |
SCN PRES. Heber Jentzsch ~ Child of Polygamy "Young Heber -- named after his mother's favorite Mormon apostle, Heber C. Kimball -- was born in 1935, the youngest child of Carl's third wife, Pauline. He was one of 42 children in a family that included eight wives." http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=rnewman-ya02408000R2705980837340001%40enews.newsguy.com | ||
| Anonymous |
Oh! I thought he was another "ass" child like davey. | ||
| Amelia Jones |
You guys seriously need to get off of the polygamy kick, it no longer has anything to do with the Mormon faith. The main purpose in its institution was to provide for the welfare of the wives and children who had no other ability to provide for themselve due to the fact that they had lost their husbands/fathers. The main cuase of these men dying was from travels and or other trials inflicted on the Saints from the mob mentality that called itself religously tolerant in early America. But that's besides the point. No member of the Mormon faith has been allowed to practice polygamy since the passing of the law a hundred or so years ago. Any Saint found practicing polygamy has been excommunicated-meaning kicked out and no longer allowed to be associated with the Church. We believe in honoring, sustaining, and following the law-not in manipulation of first ammendment rights for weirdo practices. Do your homework before you start making stupid comments about someone else's faith. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) New member Username: solopilot Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Amelia: While this was often the case, not all entered into polygamy because of a shortage of men. Often, it was done because of spiritual or even financial reasons. A number of polygamous marriages were never consummated (including, reportedly, some of Brigham Young's), and were simply because a woman might not find a worthy husband otherwise. Also, while polygamous marriages have not been solemnized in the Church in the US since 1891, for a brief while after the Manifesto, such marriages were entered into outside of the US. Also, the "practice" of polygamy is not just wedding, but also the entire lifespan of those husbands and wives, thus while what you mean to say is true, some of those involved remained in their (polygamous) marriages throughout their lives. Of course, to the anti-Mormons, it's better for a guy to shack up with twenty women and not marry any of them, than for him to have two wives. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Junior Member Username: overseas Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
Amelia, seems that you did not do your homework, according to Solopilot. But Amelia sincere congratulations for your personal attitude to discuss with non-Mormons. However, please have a look into Mormons history and check how 'Prophets' revelations' about stopping polygamy came exactly at the time when 'Saints' wanted to establish in a state that did not allow polygamy... Do you have any idea how many times Mormons will change their 'absolute truth' in the years to come ? Cause they did in the past. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Overseas: Read the Manifesto of 1890, and you will see that it doesn't change the doctrine of polygamy, just the practice. While I would never be interested in having multiple wives, I have never understood the big panic over polygamy, when it is a voluntary relationship between grown adults. I've known some (non-Mormon) polygamists and they seem pretty happy with the arrangement. Since it doesn't hurt me, I'm really not bothered by it. Now, those people who are violent, child molestors or so on -- that is, harming other people -- I do have a problem with them, and am glad when they are prosecuted. But a Utah judge a few years ago decided that a man who had divorced his wives and was only married to one woman was a polygamist, while a guy who shacks up with several woman and never marries them is not. Figure THAT one out! | ||
| nwmomike (nwmomike) Intermediate Member Username: nwmomike Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.24.179.27 |
The big panic is simply because the manifesto is contrary to statements made by Brigham Young himself. Look up his words regarding the subject in Mormon documents. What are the ramifications for those that didn't practice it? M or Michael | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Mike: No, I mean, why were people that worried about polygamy itself? I am having a hard time figuring this one out, I've never understood it, to me it makes even less sense than hatred of inter-racial marriage (at least in that case, simple bigotry explains it). On your answer, though, at the height of the practice of polygamy less that 5% of the members of the Church were in polygamous households (counting the kids). Perhaps your read on Brigham's comments isn't taking something into account. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.49.141 |
Mormons believe that in their next life they will practice plural marriage and communal living. When I told Mom that was Communism (Obviously) she said no, that's not what it meant, but there had been a trial run of this and it failed miserably because everyone had to give everything they owned to the leader and that didn't work for very long. Although the Bible says there is no marriage nor giving in marriage in heaven, Mormons (if they are worthy) get married in the Temple which is for time and all eternity. They also seal themselves the poor unmarried girls and women who have died without a husband so that these women can have a place, in the Celestial, which is the number one place to strive for, the other two you will not be able to see God, (terrestial and telestial). This is what I was taught. In other words, there will be plural marriage in heaven, my mother believes my stepfather who died is up there on his own planet preparing it for Mom and all the wives to make it an earth like this one only my stepfather will be the Christ there. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.49.141 |
I want to add that Emma Smith, Joseph's first wife, was not pleased at all about Joseph's other wives. I would suggest anyone who wants to know what kind of life that was for those girls and women, go to your local library and look up the history of the early church. Don't take our word for anything. If you marry a man in the Mormon Temple, you are stuck with him for eternity. There is no divorce ever even if he becomes abusive, an adulterer, a drunkard, etc. Yes, I was married to a mormon man who along with his father, who was also born into the church, which is supposed to give you more privilege than converts, would go party on the weekends. Later in life my father in law stopped drinking and he and his wife went to the temple to be sealed for eternity. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 261 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC wrote: "there had been a trial run of this and it failed miserably because everyone had to give everything they owned to the leader" If you are referring to the United Orders, no, that is not true. Everything was given to the community, not to "the leader," and was portioned out by common consent. By the failure of the United Orders, we have an example which has kept us from any similar experiments. You are also being false when you claim that Saints "seal themselves the poor unmarried girls and women who have died without a husband . . ." | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 232 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
solo, stop being a mormon apologist. Open your eyes! Joseph Smith did not preach a gospel of Christ. He taught a gospel of Joseph Smith. He borrowed from asian religions and the masons to come up with this deception called LDS. God was not once a man. Man will never be a god. That is egoism, hedonism. That is the same crap the new age Californica gurus teach. Wake up! Open your eyes! | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.49.141 |
As I said, please go to your library or speak to others who have left the L.D.S. Church. One requirement of being able to go the Celestial Kingdom is that you have to be married. Maybe it is during the millenium then, when the Mormons believe and teach (as I was taught) that they will fix everything so that the nonmormons will join their church and everyone EVERYONE will go to one of the Kingdoms. Maybe that's where all the rest of the 'sealing' will be done. Become a Mormon and believe Satan's lies. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 233 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Mormonism is based on extreme self love. satan lied to Adam and Eve when he told them "you shall become gods" by eating from the tree of knowledge. Mormons are deceived by the satan's lie also. They love themselves so much that they believe that they can become gods through spiritual progression (works). That is not Christian. That is satanic. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 263 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: How would a 25-year-old, uneducated farmboy in upstate New York even KNOW about "Asian religions"? And considering the fact that his only involvement with Masons was brief and about 15 years later, that proves that he really was a prophet, ha? GC: You're backpedaling. You made an assertion about men being sealed to women who had died, and you were wrong. I am beginning to doubt that you were ever a Latter-day Saint, the stuff you keep saying makes about as much sense as if you were telling us about surfing in Nebraska. Franklin (again) wrote: "satan lied to Adam and Eve when he told them "you shall become gods" by eating from the tree of knowledge." Genesis 3:22 -- "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil . . ." Gee, Franklin, I guess GOD lied too, ha? | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 235 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Don't be naive solo. Knowledge of the world's religions was available in upstate New York in the early 1800's. So far as Smith being a prophet, a prophet of God doesn't die with a gun in his hand. God does not lie. God is God. We are men created by God. We know of good and evil. But we are not gods. We will never become gods. We will always be God's creation. Nothing more. To believe that you will become a god is blasphemy. It is insanity. It is right up satan's alley. Insanity. satan is insanely jealous of God. Don't be a tool of the insane satan. All he wants is your destruction. That's all mormonism will lead you to..... insanity and destruction. Reject the false doctrine that man can become god. Worship the one true God. Come to Him. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.224 |
I know what I was taught as a member of the LDS church. It is harder for me to believe you have been a mormon as long as you claim and not know these doctrines taught by your prophets. MORMONS ARE BEING SEALED IN THE TEMPLE FOR DEAD PEOPLE WHO DID NOT BECOME MORMON WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE. THEY ARE SEALED TO THOSE PEOPLE, THINGING THEY CAN SAVE THEM. THIS IS TOTALLY AGAINST WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES. I am not backpedaling. Have you or your children heard of Gaynotes. When we were children my mother taught us with church books how children are to be GayNotes. When we would argue with each other, Mom would make us say 'gaynotes' and kiss each other on the cheek. I was married in the Ward in my town in 1973. We would go to conferences in the largest town in my state. That is where I was taught that God came down and had intercourse with Mary to concieve Jesus. I taught a 'primary class'. My children were baptized when they turned eight. My stepfather was the ward president for a few years. When my youngest daughter was 12 years old she came home one day. She told me she didn't want to spend the night at her best friend's house any more. They were a mormon family. She told me the stepfather comes down at night and molests my daughter's best friend. I took my daughter to the Ward President and told him what was happening. They said they would investigate this. They did and do you know what happened. The church told the mother and stepfather they should stay together as a family. They sent that young girl to her father in another state. Don't tell me I wasn't a mormon. The head of the stake came to my house when I asked to be excommunicated to discuss it with me. We talked and I told him the church was not teaching according to the Bible, though they allow the bible in their doctrine, by picking and choosing whatever Joseph Smith decided would fit his ideals. Most of what the Book of Mormon teaches is copied from the bible. The teachings of plural marriage, communal living, and other teachings came from the other books Joseph Smith published. When he first claimed to have found the plates, he said they were of brass and a SALAMANDER gave him the location. How insane. The people who sold everything they owned to come to Brigham Young's place, Salt Lake City, in dogcarts, wound up with next to nothing. Brigham Young owned the only liquor store, and yet he preached no liquor, no tobacco. no caffeine, etc. in fact Brigham even taught people not to eat the crust of bread. Is this control or what. When he took other men's wives and daughters to wife, the men were treatened with death if they interfered. By his DANITES. I have spent years of my trying to recover from the teachings of the mormon church. Not one of my questions to you have been answered. Why are you still an Elder? Why don't you speak of Jesus work in YOUR life. So far the only thing you say about your church is they make you feel comfortable. Well, diciples of Jesus Christ are not concerned about our comfort. We try to live our lives to glorify God. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 270 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC: Yeah, right. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.62 |
I wil continue to share my horror stories while a member of the LDS church. I will no longer read sp's responses because his intent is to make us so frustrated or angry we will stop using this site. THIS SITE IS IMPORTANT FOR WARNING PEOPLE. sp KNOWS THIS. AN ELDER OF THE LDS CHURCH HAS MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO, UNLESS THAT IS HIS JOB!}} | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 241 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Continue on godchild. Darkness hates the light. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Intermediate Member Username: overseas Post Number: 230 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
I had the impression too that SP does this as a very organised task. And he said in a post he has a 'degree' equivalent to apostles. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.149 |
I thank you for your support. I was on another site yesterday and a Christian gave up this site because of sp's antagonistic attitude. Let's stand firm. Solopilot has an obvious persecution complex. God bless him. We know 'God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform'. It is not too late, as seen in the thief on the cross. But we should not fuel his intentions. While I was a mormon, the men who held the priesthood did not have time or inclination to do what he is doing. When I asked him if the church was aware of his activities, he had no response, just as he does not respond to questions that get to the meat of his personal life. Christians have no fear. We accept that we are imperfect and overcome by the holy spirit in us. Mormons are taught the spirit comes and goes in you, depending on whether you are being good or bad. That is a terrible way to live, as I child. I Know this from my own experience. Children are taught at an early age to cross their arms all during the meetings. Mormon leaders say it is to keep them still and reverent. Psychologists will tell you that is a 'defensive posture'. My stepfather, as President of our stake, would sit with other leaders at the front facing the congregation, to monitor who took the sacrement (every Sunday) for Mormons. If he thought you were unworthy, he would come later and tell you not to take it. JESUS SAID,'I COME, NOT TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS, BUT THE SINNERS, TO REPENTANCE'. God bless. The morning news has an article about a family who were bound and stabbed to death in their homes; Father, Mother, and two daughters. This was an Christian Egyptian family. Some are accusing Muslims of doing this in retaliation for the father posting on a website. Officials are investigating. Put on the whole armor of God, and pray for those who spitefully abuse you. Satan will run from you if you call on the Lord. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 274 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
GC: There you go again: "AN ELDER OF THE LDS CHURCH HAS MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO DO, UNLESS THAT IS HIS JOB!" The rest of you, think about this a moment and you will see how absurd this statement was. Do any of YOU spend every waking hour doing church work? Even your PAID preachers don't. GC has gone from suggesting that Elder is a low priesthood to saying that an Elder has "more important things to do unless it's his job." Even FRANKLIN should be smart enough to question this. Make up your mind, GC, am I being held back because of my skin color, or am I too important to have time to chat online? You often lie about Church doctrine, but that's nothing new or remarkable. However, you also say too many things which show a basic unfamiliarity with Church practices for me to believe that you were ever an active Latter-day Saint. To make it absolutely clear, I think that you are LYING when you say that you were a member. For the unenlightened among you, some of the things he says are the equivalent of saying that Baptists hold their services on Saturdays or that Methodists attend Mass every Sunday. Things which anyone who had ever been a member would know better than to say, and which don't have any value to use in bashing the Church. You are welcome to believe that he's "come over" to your side, but I think he's just fooling you with stuff he gets from outside sources. Franklin: Yes, you do, but we like you anyway. ;) Overseas: We have a "lay priesthood." My formal religious education was as a Protestant. I am ordained as an Elder, which is the higher priesthood, the same as the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles -- or of the male missionaries serving your area. What can change is the office and the calling. For instance, if I were a Bishop, I would be a High Priest. HP is not a higher level, it is a specific set of responsibilities, generally administrative. The other office in the higher priesthood is as a "Seventy." Seventies' responsibility is missionary work. Thus, it is not a degree or anything like that which makes an Elder. Nearly all of the adult men in the Church are elders or "prospective" elders if they are new members. I'm here during breaks from work or in the evenings when I have nothing better to do than poke a stick into cages. ;) GC (again): No, "the church" doesn't know of my activities, I'm too busy to write all 13,000,000 Mormons to let them know every little detail of my life. "The meat of my personal life" is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You aren't Dr Laura! You're getting more far out every new post. I dunno about your current cult's meetings, but don't you teach the kids to be quiet and reverent? The Protestant cults I grew up in sure did! I can't count the number of times I was expected to sit there, arms folded, while the preacher droned on and on. We were also required to fold our arms when walking from one place or another at the church, just as Mormon kids do. Now you're just plain lying again, when you say that the Stake President comes to tell the "unworthy" not to take the Sacrament. ANY Mormon knows that this isn't done. First, the only ones who don't take the Sacrament are those who are under a FORMAL form of discipline. Second, it's the BISHOP who metes out this discipline, NOT THE STAKE PRESIDENT, and this is only done after the member confesses a sin for which this is an appopriate penance. Uh . . .GC . . ? What would you call the righteous to repent OF . . ? Yes, apparently Satan has run from me, you say that someone left here because of what I've said. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 244 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
I love the light, the truth. You, the "I am a mormon god/man" love the darkness, the lies. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.188 |
Jesus said I come to call the sinners, not the righteous, to repentance. In other words, he was saying no man was righteous. Men were and are all sinners. Just as the men of today, they thought if they obeyed certain commandments and slipped up just a little bit, they were righteous. Men now say 'If I go to church, if I pay tithing, if I feed the poor, if I don't eat unclean meat (food), but I take an extra wife or two because she needs someone to take care of her, Christ was saying, 'You are not righteous, in fact you are guilty of the whole law'. That is why he came to shed his blood for us. If is impossible to do it for ourselves. We are mankind, sinners. Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the old law and added the new one, "Love one another as thyself". If your child misbehaves, you dicipline them. God does too. Because of love. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.188 |
Not the Stake President, the Branch President. In the 80's he and my mother also went on a mission to Julian, CA.. What Ward, Stake or Branch do you attend, sp? You shouldn't mind telling that. Unless you have something to hide. And what Protestant church did you attend that made you so bitter? Oh, I know, that's none of my business. Ho-hum | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 281 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC: I have nothing to hide, but this is information that I have no reason to make public. I'm certainly not going to do that on a dare. I'm not bitter about Protestant cultism, I just outgrew being a Methodist, partway through the process of becoming a pastor. My brother is an Episcopalian. My parents were Baptists and later attended an "Evangelical Free Church." I've had a chance to look at a bunch of them and all come up short. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.86 |
sp I admire you for your convictions. It is not for me to you judge you or anyone else and I admit I have because of my own predjudices about the L.D.S.. You are happy where you are and that is your right and privilege. I am sure of one thing in my desire to fellowship with other christians, it becomes difficult. I have found very good Bible Churches and non-denominational churches. I want to learn more about the Bible. For me personally, there was too much coincidence and change in the L.D.S.. I told my Mother long ago 'I respect your right to believe what you want, and I ask that you respect mine. I have erred and will again. I have my foundation and therefore not concerned about my eternal salvation. If you have found yours, I am happy for you. I will let go of my own frustration and anger now. God Bless you | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 285 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
GC: I think that this was very hard for you to say. I appreciate it, and unexpectedly find myself damp-eyed. I understand the frustration, though not the anger. I hope that you find whatever you are seeking. God has blessed me, in many ways, and this message from you is counted among them. May he bless you too. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 929 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.76 |
On January 17, solopilot said I lied about men being sealed to women. The women are being sealed to the man, which is in evidence by mormon historians, re: many mormon women sealed themselves to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young after their death. Stop playing semantics. Explain for us how you can be baptized for your dead grandmother in the temple? You said you were waiting for your 'recommend' to do just that. When you're in the water, do you sing "I'm my own grandma"? |
