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daved (daved)
Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 96
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.228.28
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:01 am: | 
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The title of this thread is:
What does God's name mean in the Hebrew Language?
What does the Hebrew name "Yehovah" mean in Hebrew?
What does the Hebrew name "Yahweh" mean in Hebrew?
Pastor Carl Stevens often quotes Exodus 34:6, and says that God's name means:"merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth"
>>>
Exod 34:6 KJV says:
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
>>>
However, I believe that Pastor Carl Stevens is only quoting some attributes of God, he is not actually explaining what God's name means.
Many Hebrew scholars believe that YHWH is a Hebrew verb form.
There are Hebrew scholars on the b-Hebrew Discussion Board that will try to analyze the "scholarly reconstruction" Yahweh, but when push comes to shove, they have to acknowledge that they don't really know if "Yahweh" is an actual Hebrew word.
And very few (if any) Hebrew scholars who post on b-hebrew would even attempt to analyze the name "Yehovah" because they don't believe it is an actual Hebrew name, even though it is found in the Masoretic Text.
daved |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 192
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Exodus 3
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'
As for why it looks like a verb form:
"I am that I am" - 'eHeYeH 'aSHeR 'eHeYeH
LORD - YHWH, vocalized YaHWeH or YeHoWaH or YeHoViH
Hodeuon |
daved (daved)
Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 98
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.213.119
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Hodeuon
When God speaks His own name in Exodus 3:14,
he uses [aleph-segol-heh-shewa-yod-segol-heh]
which is transliterated into English as eH:YeH.
http://www.ibiblio.org/bhebrew/
The link above gives the Transcription Guidelines used on b-hebrew.
And the King James Bible translates [aleph-segol-heh-shewa-yod-segol-heh]
as "I AM"
So in this case when God pronounces His own name [i.e. eH:YeH],
it means "I AM"
However some scholars believe that when God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that "YHWH" had sent him,
that YHWH in Hebrew might have meant "He that is".
So God tells Moses that His name is "I AM"
and
Moses tells the children of Israel that "He that is" has sent me.
Clement of Alexandria wrote that:
"Iaoue = YaH:WeH" means "who is and shall be"
daved |
bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Advanced Member
Username: bob_brinton
Post Number: 972
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.109.236.73
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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In He who is I Am, all things have their being. That's rather profound. Every aspect of our existence depends entirely on Him. Makes human pride look a bit silly. |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
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Daved, I appreciate your study in these matters. What I am failing to grasp is what is it about CHS treatment of this subject that bothers you so much? |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
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Daved, you wrote on another thread:
I think that Pastor Carl Stevens believes a Christian will suffer loss at the Bema Seat if that Christian is not pronouncing God's name correctly in this life.
I realize that CHS has a big target on his chest here on factnet and some of the arrows are deserved, but I have never in 25 years heard him make any statement that could remotely imply such a thing. Please enlighten me. |
daved (daved)
Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.213.119
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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Imao says:
>>>
Daved, I appreciate your study in these matters. What I am failing to grasp is what is it about CHS treatment of this subject that bothers you so much?
>>>
Imao,
I would truely like to honor God by the name "Yahweh"
if Pastor Carl Stevens and the Roman Catholic Church are correct.
Wouldn't you want to honor God by the name "Yahweh"
if Pastor Carl Stevens and the Roman Catholic Church are correct?
Even if GGWO was a cult, wouldn't you want to honor God by the name "Yahweh" if in this one point GGWO was correct.
Pastor Carl Stevens
Pastor Schaller
Pastor Paul Stevens [MIA]
Pastor Steve Stevens [MIA]
Dr. Lewis [MIA]
Pastor Marr
Pastor Love
Pastor Scibelli
The above Pastors all believe that God's name is "Yahweh".
The Roman Catholic Church believes that God's name is "Yahweh".
Maybe they are right.
Of course if they are right,
that means that all of protestant Christianity was in error since 1525 when Tyndale wrote God's name as "Iehouah".
All the men below taught that God's name was "Iehouah/Jehovah"
Tyndale,
Luther,
Calvin,
The KJV translator of 1611
The KJV editors of 1762-1769
Spurgeon
Schofield
Jack Hyles who may have been Pastor Stevens' pastor.
I'd like to be on the right side of this issue,
so I continue to study this issue,
and I try to get feedback from others.
daved
P.S.
The main problem that I have with this issue probably has nothing to do with Pastor Carl Stevens and GGWO.
The main problem I have is that the Hebrew name "Yahweh" is found in no extant Hebrew Text.
It is a presumed name, derived from the writings of several Greek Fathers.
However this does not seem to bother either the Roman Catholic Church, or Pastor Carl Stevens,
so I do try to understand the reasons why Pastor Carl Stevens believes,
and I do try to understand why the largest Christian Church in the world believes.
(Message edited by daved on June 19, 2005) |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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Daved, If all the men who taught that God's name was "Iehouah/Jehovah" were wrong, then they were wrong. I assume they did the best they could based on the information they had at the time. Would God somehow hold them accountable for something they did in ignorance. I do not think so. |
whitehorses (whitehorses)
Intermediate Member
Username: whitehorses
Post Number: 316
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:04 pm: |
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i think it should be spelled backwards with the hebrew lettering to complete accuracy.
maybe if its played backward like the beatles white album we might get some inspiration from some diety 
(that is said in jest for all the overly sensitive who read) |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 194
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
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I think that Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Spurgeon would probably say that 'Jehovah' was the translation of 'Yahweh' into their languages. I do not believe any of them would have a problem with saying that God's name is Yahweh.
It is not just GG and the RCC that teaches God's name is Yahweh. Most evangelicals do, too. Take your pick of accredited seminaries.
Hodeuon |
nonotone (nonotone)
Intermediate Member
Username: nonotone
Post Number: 271
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.211.160.204
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:18 pm: |
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Hodeuon, writes:
It is not just GG and the RCC that teaches God's name is Yahweh. Most evangelicals do, too. Take your pick of accredited seminaries.
... but do the representatives of these seminaries make an issue of this by making comparative remarks about the names Jehovah and Yahweh?
FWIW, on many other threads DAVED has quoted CHS from the Grace Hour, etc. on this issue. I have personally heard CHS make similar references in Sermons and ABD classes.
A quick search of the "Theological Journals Library" (an electronic collection of the major conservative American Seminary Journals from the past 80 years or so) yields more "hits" for Yahweh than for Jehovah overall. However the 'Bib Sac' (Dallas Theological Seminary Jorurnal - which up until the late 1970's pretty much represents the underlying theology of CHS/TBS/GGWO) yields the most hits for each name (1753 for Jehovah and 1643 for Yahweh).
Of course my little "data mining" exercise is entirely unscientific and proves very little without actually examining the context these names in which these names are used in the representative Journal articles.
Schaff's History does not mention 'Yahweh' at all, but uses 'Jehovah' 31 times. The Church Fathers Library does not use 'Yahweh' but mentions 'Jehovah" 32 times. Again no proof is being attempted on my part here - just simple information.
Lewis Sperry Chafer's "Systematic Theology" seems to use the name Jehovah pretty consistently. This really perplexed me when I began reading Chafer because I new that CHS got much of his early foundation from extensively reading Chafer. I did not think that CHS would contradict a scholar of Chafer's standing on an issue like this.
It is interesting that in fact the KJV only uses the tranlsated name JEHOVAH a total of 4 times.
So it seems like the issue reduces to how to pronounce the name of God spelled YHWH in the Hebrew text - not issues of translation. I would be interested in futher study on how this has been treated by Bibliologists throughout the history of textual transmission, criticism, and translation.
An old acquaintance of mine is an excellent Hebrew Scholar who teaches at Calvin College and just got his PhD from Westminster Philadelphia doing Hebrew studies in the minor prophets. He is going to be preaching at our (PCA) Church next month. I'll try to remember and ask him about the Jehovah vs. Yahweh issue.
In Christ,
Brian Bowman
1 Corinthians 8:2-3 |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 101
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.214.135
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 7:31 am: |
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hodeuon said:
>>>
I think that Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Spurgeon would probably say that 'Jehovah' was the translation of 'Yahweh' into their languages. I do not believe any of them would have a problem with saying that God's name is Yahweh.
>>>
I have a KJV Study Bible by W.A. Criswell written in 1979. In the study notes this bible does try to imply that "Yahweh" is translated as "Jehovah".
I have a Jerry Falwell KJV Study Bible that implies the same thing, that Yahweh is translated as "Jehovah".
Hovever Tyndale and Luther and Calvin never heard of the name "Yahweh" during their lives. They believed what the Masoretic Text said, and the Masoretic Text spelled God's name as "Yehovah"
Luther was dogmatic that God's name was "Jehovah",
and he disputed the Jews that said YHWH could not be pronounced.
Luther believed in Sola Scriptura and the Hebrew scriptures he was familiar with spelled God's name YeHoVaH.
In fact I can assume that the Hebrew text that GGWO Christians use also spells God's name as "Yehovah". However GGWO pastors do not trust the Hebrew Scriptures that underlie the Old Testament of the KJV.
If you ever hear Pastor Carl Stevens say that the "Original Hebrew" says that God's name is "YaHWeH" ask him to show you any Hebrew Text that spells God's name as "YaHWeH".
And then ask him to show you the Hebrew Text that he uses to study the Hebrew scriptures. Five will get you ten, that GGWO is studying a Hebrew text that spells God's name as "YeHoVaH"
daved
P.S. A Bible Student at Bob Jones University told me that in their Hebrew Studies they were not allowed to pronounce God's name as it was spelled in the Masoretic Text they used. It was spelled "YeHoVAH" in the Masoretic Text that they used at BJU.
He said every other word in the Hebrew Text they pronounced as it was spelled but they were required to pronounce "YeHoVaH" as if it had been spelled "YaH:WeH". |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 220
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.196.8
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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God's name:
God's name means that we have hope in the Son.
God's name means the work has been done.
God's name means that now we are one.
God's name means in Christ we are one.
As I mentioned in another post,"as long as we don't call Him allah."
Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave} |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.211.205
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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But never call Data Datah
Data gets very upset if you call him Datah.
When a woman on Startrek Next Generation asked Data why he didn't want to be called Datah,
he coldly told her "because my name is Data"
daved |
anon_brief (anon_brief)
Intermediate Member
Username: anon_brief
Post Number: 423
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Daved,
Poor example for analogy.
Data is an android who finds it difficult to understand humanity.
For me, this is about as contrary a concept of God as there can be. |
forte (forte)
Junior Member
Username: forte
Post Number: 49
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:02 pm: |
|
yeah AND Data doesn't have an emotion chip! |
hms_surprise (hms_surprise)
New member
Username: hms_surprise
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 67.40.55.210
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:19 pm: |
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"So in this case when God pronounces His own name [i.e. eH:YeH],
it means "I AM" "
So whose lips did Old What's His Name borrow to "pronounce" his name? Moses'? Everybody knows Moses had a speech impediment, so maybe he was trying to say "Larry" and it just came out as "Yahweh." |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 163
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.163.98.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
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No disrespect intended, but when I saw the :
eH:YeH
it made me think of the Maine tourist shirts that say:
Ay Yah been there.
Smile..... |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.156.15.149
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
|
Ayah,
Sure hope the rain keeps up.
That way it won't come down
daved |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 165
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.163.98.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
|
Daved tbat reminds of a joke this little Jewish couple used to tell me. They used to own the Log Cabin just outside of Lenox center and their names were Abe and Sarah!
Here's the joke:
A woman yells to her husband who is reading in his recliner:
"Ira, shut the window, it's cold outside."
He yells back:
"What, if I shut the window is it going to get warm outside?"
They told these jokes over and over, (because they forgot they had told them before)
They were adorable. This little "goy" loved them. |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 166
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.163.98.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Omigosh, a whole torrent of their jokes just flooded my brain.
Here is another one.
(If you can picture this cute little couple in their nineties delivering these and waiting wide eyed for our response you would understand why i cherish these memories, right rollochef???)(Remember:They ought to picking their grapes right now or something Bob. B used to say in the kitchen)
Joke:
A woman comes home after visiting her husband in the hospital.
Her neighbor sees her going in the house and asks her: "How is your husband doing?"
The woman replies:"The doctor says that he's improving"
The next day the neighbor sees her again and repeats the question:"How is your husband doing today?"
The woman replies:"He's still improving."
This went on for a few days, the answer always the same.
One day the woman comes home and sure enough the neighbor was there:"How is your husband doing?"
The woman replies: "He's dead."
Shocked the neighbor responds, "What did he die from?"
The woman replied: "Improvements."
Is that cute or what. Abe and Sarah always told these jokes with a Jewish flair because they didn't want to insult any one elses background..so they used their own. Cute!! |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.231.64
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
|
On Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:28 pm,
hodeuon said:
>>>
I think that Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Spurgeon would probably say that 'Jehovah' was the translation of 'Yahweh' into their languages.
I do not believe any of them would have a problem with saying that God's name is Yahweh.
It is not just GG and the RCC that teaches God's name is Yahweh. Most evangelicals do, too. Take your pick of accredited seminaries.
>>>
hodeuon,
This is my second reply to your question.
I would hope that Luther would have a major problem saying that God's name is "Yahweh".
Luther is the originator of "SOLA SCRIPTURA",
and the vocalization "YaH:WeH" is preserved in no extant Hebrew Scriptures.
Luther would have to apologize to the Pope, for causing schism,
if he was to say that he believed that God's name was "YaH:WeH"
One of the reasons that Luther separated from the Roman Catholic Church
was that they taught doctrine that had no support in the scriptures.
BUT WHERE IN THE EXTANT SCRIPTURES
HAS GOD PRESERVED THE VOCALIZED "HEBREW" SPELLING "Y-A-H-W-E-H"?
"Yahweh" is a presumed vocalization of God's name.
I suspect that Gesenius's fingerprints are all over the "scholarly reconstruction" "YaH:WeH", as he was using it before his death in about 1842.
However Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible"
says that Gesenius "adopted" this "scholarly reconstruction"
so someone before Gesenius may have actually coined this Hebrew vocalization.
daved |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 196
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
|
Daved,
There is a difference between sola scriptura and textual criticism. Sola scriptura means we draw doctrine from Scripture alone, not from traditions or decrees of the Church leadership. Textual criticism attempts to arrive at the original text of Scripture.
It is this original text that was inerrant. Doctrinal statements from several Bible colleges follow:
We Believe . . .
In the verbal and plenary inspiration of the original manuscripts of the Old and New Testaments, which constitute the inerrant Word of God.
-Baptist Bible College, Clarks Summit PA
Article I. The Scriptures -- We believe that the original writing of the Holy Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, are verbally, plenarily, and inerrantly inspired of God and that they constitute the absolute authority in all matters of faith and practice (11Timothy 3:16, 17; Psalm 119:105). We believe in the literal, historical, grammatical and contextual interpretation of the Bible, which reveals divinely determined dispensations defining man's responsibilities under God in successive ages (Ephesians 3:2-10).
-Davis College, Johnson City NY
The sixty-six canonical books of the Bible as originally written were inspired of God, hence free from error. They constitute the only infallible guide in faith and practice.
-Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton MA
The Scriptures
We believe the Scriptures of the Old Testament and the New Testament are the Word of God and are verbally inspired of God and inerrant in the original writings. We believe that this inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the Scriptures, and that they are the supreme and final authority in faith and life. John 17:17; Galatians 3:16; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:19-21.
-Lancaster Bible College, Lancaster PA
Article II
The Bible, including both the Old and New Testaments is a divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).
-Moody Bible Institute, Chicago IL
The Old and New Testaments, inerrant as originally given, were verbally inspired by God and are a complete revelation of His will for the salvation of man. They constitute the divine and only rule of Christian faith and practice.
-Nyack College, Nyack NY
I. We believe in the divine inspiration and authority of the Scriptures. By this is meant a miraculous guidance of the Holy Spirit in their original writing, extending to all parts of the Scriptures equally, applying even to the choice of words, so that the result is the very Word of God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice. Moreover, it is our conviction that God has exercised such singular care and providence through the ages in preserving the written Word, that the Scriptures as we now have them are in every essential particular as originally given and contain all things necessary to salvation.
-Philadelphia Biblical University, Langhorne PA
1. The Scriptures
We believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, verbally inspired in the whole and in the parts, the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21).
-Washington Bible College, Lanham MD
---
As you’ve pointed out, the Hebrew text used by the KJV translators was the Ben Chayyim text (although the influence on the KJV of Tyndale’s English translation and Luther’s German translation should not be underestimated). Later English editions tend to use the Leningrad Codex. As you have also pointed out, God’s name appears in these manuscripts as Yehowah and sometimes Yehowih. You maintain this is correct; I maintain that it is the consonants of the name plus the vowel points from Adonai (and in the case of Yehovih, from Elohim).
However, we have texts older than both the Ben Chayyim and Leningrad. The Dead Sea Scrolls are unpointed; there are no vowels. By the standard that you apply to the New King James and the New American Standard, the Ben Chayyim text cannot be said to be sola scriptura, either, because it adds to what existed in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Moreover, both the Ben Chayyim and Leningrad texts have changes introduced by the scribes. These changes were called tiqqune sopherim, scribal corrections. Fortunately the scribes kept fairly decent lists of what they did.
A couple examples: In Genesis 18:22 the KJV and practically every English version reads, “And Abraham stood before the LORD.” However, the Hebrew originally read “And the LORD stood before Abraham.” Because “to stand before” can be read idiomatically as “to serve”, the scribes changed the biblical text so that no one would think that God served Abraham. There are a couple more examples in Job, in 1:5 where Job offers sacrifice in case his sons “have blessed God in their heart” and in 2:9 where Job’s wife says “bless God and die”. In both cases, the original is “curse” not “bless”. This concept was abhorrent to the scribes, and they promptly changed the biblical text. Most English versions actually return to the original here, since particularly in Job 1:5 the correction makes no sense at all.
If we say that sola scriptura rules out textual criticism then we are left with *NO* biblical texts. We don’t have any of the originals. But if we use textual criticism responsibly, then we can work back closer to the original inerrant text – closer than either the Ben Chayyim or Leningrad or Dead Sea Scrolls would be on their own.
So – how reliable are our English Bibles? Very reliable. Perfect? No. But no major Christian doctrine depends on words about which textual criticism raises major questions. Our English Bibles – and French Bibles and German Bibles, etc. – are accurate enough that we can speak of them as the inspired word of God as long as we remember that this is only insofar as they agree with the originals.
Hodeuon |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.226.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
|
hodeuon
The question remains what is correct Hebrew vocalization of God's name?
At best the oldest Hebrew Text is only partially vocalized,
since in some places consonants are being used to indicate vowels.
So if it turns out that we can not trust any Masoretic Text to preserve the correct Hebrew vocalization of God's name,
and if the Jewish people deny that they have an unbroken tradition in which God's name was preserved,
where do you go, where does Pastor Carl Stevens go to determine that God's name is "YaH:WeH".
You, hodeuon have indicated that you do not believe that Clement of Alexandria's writings are part of your evidence.
That seems to indicate that you must be trusting in the Samaritan pronunciation of YHWH.
I am not aware of any other evidence that indicates that God's name was "YaH:WeH".
Is that your evidence for "YaH:WeH"?
The Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906 believes
that the Samarian pronunciation in the 4th century A.D. was "YaH:VeH".
Do you believe that the Samarian pronunciation alone is sufficient evidence that God's name is "YaH:WeH"?
Have you satisfied yourself that the 16 or so theophoric names starting with "YeHo" can be derived from "YaH".
Can you provide me with a link to any scholarly source that explains how "Yah" changes to "YeHo"
in compound 3-sylable words?
daved |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 258
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.112.156
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:44 pm: |
|
Some notes on the name Jehovah:
Jehovah
the special and significant name (not merely an appellative title such as Lord [adonai]) by which God revealed himself to the ancient Hebrews (Ex 6:2-3). This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place. Whenever this name occurred in the sacred books they pronounced it, as they still do, "Adonai" (i.e., Lord), thus using another word in its stead. The Massorets gave to it the vowel-points appropriate to this word. This Jewish practice was founded on a false interpretation of Le 24:16. The meaning of the word appears from Ex 3:14 to be "the unchanging, eternal, self-existent God," the "I am that I am," a convenant-keeping God. (Comp. Mal 3:6; Ho 12:5; Re 1:4,8.) Eastons Bible dictionary.
Dave} |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 204
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
|
Daved,
I am not consciously drawing on the Samaritan pronunciation of the name.
Warning to everyone else: much Hebrew grammar follows.
Starting with Exodus 3:14, ‘eH:YeH is “I am”, Qal imperfect, 1st common singular. YHWH in Ex 3:15 sure looks related by ‘eH:YeH 3:14. The Qal imperfect, 3rd masculine singular “He is” would be YiH:YeH.
This discussion is not helped by the fact that certain letters in each of the three root positions cause Hebrew roots to conjugate differently. HYH “to be” manages to fall into an exception category for all three root letters: 1-Guttural, 2-Waw/Yodh, and 3-real He. So it’s a triple exception. Nice, huh?
YHWH may be an archaic form of “He is”, with God using ‘eH:YeH of Himself and expecting Moses to refer to Him as YHWH. First, the easy exception. Verbs with a real He (as opposed to a fake one) in the 3rd position use a short e (segol) as their final vowel in the imperfect. Verbs with waw or yodh in the second postion…well, “explode” was how we characterized it in class. It’s not impossible for the Waw/Yodh to become a U (shurek) or O (holem full) in the imperfect. I think is probably where the O in the Yeho- compound names comes from. Typically the Waw/Yodh in the 2nd root position also makes the first vowel in the imperfect a long A (qames), although I don’t want to hazard a guess as to whether the rules for the 2nd position Waw/Yodh exception or the rules for the 1st position guttural exception take precedence. So YaH:WeH may actually be defensible as an archaic 3rd person masculine singular imperfect form of “to be”.
I hope this helps.
Hodeuon |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 197
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.203.114.204
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 3:12 am: |
|
Don't mean to interupt the theological discussion but didn't anyone like abe and sarahs jokes....
Love you,
patricia |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 121
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.210.25
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:25 am: |
|
sojourner,
I enjoyed the abe and sarah jokes.
daved |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.210.25
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 8:04 am: |
|
david_munson wrote:
>>>
This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place.
Whenever this name occurred in the sacred books they pronounced it, as they still do, "Adonai" (i.e., Lord), thus using another word in its stead.
The Masoretes gave to it the vowel-points appropriate to this word.
>>>
david,
Like most scholarly sources, your source believes that "Jehovah" is a hybrid name that has the vowels of "Adonai" and does not have the vowels of God's actual name.
When Pastor Carl Stevens says that "Jehovah" is a hybrid name that has no meaning, he has the support of over 90% of modern scholarship.
In about the year 1900 Joseph Rotherham wrote
(He was actually quoting another person):
>>>
...To give the name JHVH the vowels of the word for Lord (Heb. Adonai) and pronounce it Jehovah, is about as hybrid a combination as it would be to spell the name Germany with the vowels in the name Portugal--viz, Gormuna.
The monstrous combination Jehovah is not older than about 1520 A.D.
>>>
Even the Watchtower literature concedes that "Jehovah" has the vowels of "Adonai".
When Pastor Carl Stevens critiques those churches in Baltimore who call God by the name "Jehovah", as being ignorant, he has modern scholarship on his side.
For all practical purposes only KJVO Christians defend the vowels of "Jehovah", as being the actual vowels of God's name.
Maybe if Tyndale and Luther and Calvin had access (in the 16th century) to the information that Pastor Carl Stevens has access to in 2005, they would not have believed that God's name was "Iehouah later to become Jehovah"
daved |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 123
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.214.24
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 9:36 am: |
|
Hodeuon,
Thank you for your post.
Why do you say that the "he" in the 3rd position of HYH is a real "he"
(as opposed to a fake one)?
Are you saying that you believe that the final "he" in HYH is pronounced,
and is not a consonant being used to indicate a vowel?
Do you believe the same is true for HWH,
and that the final "he" in "YaH:WeH" should be pronounced?
hodeoun,
Were any of your Hebrew classes at GGWO,
or did you study Hebrew somewhere else?
daved |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 201
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.203.112.242
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
|
Hugs david, I was getting insecure, the one name I care about calling God now, is Abba,Father.
Patricia |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 269
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.172.53
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
|
The name Jehovah would appear to me to be just some easy way for the common man to vocalize the YHWH text.
This in no way bothers me.I think it is just a convenience for the layman.I doubt that God is worried about it as long as we know that we are refering to "I am that I am."which is what God called Himself when He addressed Abraham.
KJV fan not KJV only.
In Christ's Love,
Dave} |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.230.35
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 2:13 pm: |
|
david_munson says:
>>>
The name Jehovah would appear to me to be just some easy way for the common man to vocalize the YHWH text.
>>>
David,
My opinion is that "Jehovah" accurately represents the Hebrew spelling that is found in the Masoretic Text that underlies the Old Testament of the King James Bible.
However Pastor Carl Stevens' "preciseness ministry" reminds us that God doesn't appreciate the King James Bible because it calls Him Jehovah.
daved |
forte (forte)
Member
Username: forte
Post Number: 61
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
|
daved,
your awesome.
Forte |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 112
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
|
Daved,
I am still not sure what your mission is here regarding KJV, the Holy Ghost and the name of God.
Is it that you think it is wrong that Pastor Stevens used a version of the Bible that he found fault with? Should he have switched to a translation that is more accurate? Is it that you disagree with his conclusions about Holy Ghost and God's name? Or is it that you think he makes it more important than he should? Is it that you think he thinks more highly of the KJV than he lets on? Is he a closet KJVO believer? |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 279
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.216.79
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:34 pm: |
|
Daved;
I have the perfect solution for you.Ignore him.
Dave} |
boss_martian (boss_martian)
Advanced Member
Username: boss_martian
Post Number: 560
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.61.123
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
If an ant was walking across the floor and passed gas, would it stink?
Meanwhile, someone else got sucked into a cult.
Meanwhile, someone else is wondering if they are still a Christian if they leave GGWO.
Meanwhile, someone else is wondering if they'll ever get to speak to their son or daughter or mother or father.
Meanwhile someone else is wondering if leaving GGWO will result in losing all of their friends. Or their spouse.
Daved and those that are furiously debating the difference between "happy" and "glad", oops, whether God's name is Yahweh, Jehovah, or Cletus, why don't you pray and ask God what His name is? Since this is SO important and it is clear that God is going to condemn people to Hell for calling him by the wrong name, it should be pretty easy to for the Holy Spirit to lead you the right answer.
This is certainly a free forum and people can write whatever they want. Well here's my two cents worth:
This is the stupidest fucking waste of time I have ever seen. I am not kidding in the least.
Daved, you have started at least ten threads dedicated to a debate with no value whatsoever. NONE. Exactly what do you hope to get out of this? You have been going on and on and on. Do you think you will find an answer here? Are you doing it to intentionally piss people off?
Bible scholars, Talmud scholars, you-name-it scholars have gone around and around on this. Do you honestly think that you are going to find an answer here?
Christianity teaches the way to live your life and the way to have eternal life! The Bible tells about how THE UNIVERSE, every physical and non-physical aspect of experience was created from nothing! It speaks of a Being that has always been and will always be! These are wonderous things that absolutely boggle the mind and touch the soul! And what intrigues your mind far and away more than any of this?
God's name. That's it, God's name. You cannot let it go.
Are you helping one person, EVEN ONE PERSON better their life, find some comfort, and have a closer relationship with God? I include your own personal self in that question. What it is going to take to get an answer?
This is one of the reasons people don't get involved in religion. People go around and around and FUCKING around over bullshit like this and guess what? It doesn't help anyone! NOT ONE PERSON!
I'm asking you again, how is this helping a brother or a sister? Exactly what good does it bring to the world? What is going to satisfy you for an answer? And what are the consequences for getting it wrong? That's the important one to ME, what are the consequences for getting it wrong? What are the rewards for getting it right.
Please, don't let my heathen ass stop you from addressing this most important issue. Lord forgive me for taking up Daved's valuable time before he finds out what Your name is.
Remember it's boss_martian. Not Boss Martian. I'm VERY offended if you spell it any other way. And remember, as translated from the Lost Scrolls of Slappy, boss_martian is pronounced "goony googoo". |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 113
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
|
Boss, the thread is called:
What does God's name mean in the Hebrew Language?
If you are not interested in the topic, why not just ignore it? |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 283
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.216.79
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
|
Boss;
I'm in hysterics!my neighbor has a dog named Cletis.LMAO
Dave} |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 209
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.162.208.62
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
|
Boss my dear brother, I thought you were having a stroke. I will never tell you what to post Boss or how to post...you never offend me because I feel very close to you....just don't want to see you bearing burdens that are beyond your control.
I love your raw emotion and getting it all out there. Also I am not into the theological debates, never a big scholar, more into undercurrents rather than surface details, you know the things that unite us, the things we have in common. Aggravating as the long debates can sometimes be...this is a free forum Boss. Don't stroke out, just scroll over the stuff you don't like. I agree that this forum was founded to get stories out and help others by sharing those stories. We do get off track a lot but who knows what people relate to.
Hugs to you Boss, don't yell at me for saying these things and forgive me if I sound like I am lecturing you..that is never my intention, ever.
Love,
Patricia |
minutus (minutus)
Advanced Member
Username: minutus
Post Number: 871
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.99.87.66
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
|
Do endless disputations about the name of God glorify Him? Do they whisper His excellencies to the hearts of those who read? Maybe I'm missing something here but it seems like a spiritual circle jerk to me. |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 211
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.162.208.62
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:57 pm: |
|
Minutus, Boss,
I am in agreement with you both...I do not personally get anything from the endless debates about who studied this word or that word, but some people might. Maybe it's a girl thing and I want to soften the blows a little. I think Daved can fend for himself and maybe will share more of what is in his heart with us but I cannot say he shouldn't post what he wants to. Daved I am not into the theological debates but some people are not in devotional and testimony mode either and I see that. I am double minded. I line up more with Boss and Minutus on this subject in terms of my opinion...I think I have this way of looking at both sides. My personal take on Factnet is that it is a place for stories from the heart and that too much head talk will not grab the one seeking a way out of bondage through hearing another persons story. But we really do not have rules here guys, maybe suggestions...but I love you and I have a big brother who says things in a way I don't always appreciate but he is still my brother. Do you get my drift guys? I amy not like the message but if I tell someone they can't say certain things what am I really saying about liberty.
Hugs really big hugs,
Patricia |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 212
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.162.208.62
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
|
I am NOT double- minded (a typo )I know what I think on the subject. I didn't mean to say I was double-minded although I came very close to being schizo in the ministry with such a divided heart.Just wanted to clear that up. And Daved, I don't speak for anyone else but I will say Boss and Minutus are passionate about helping people get out of cults and bondage and so am I. We just have different expressions. In no way am I trying to water down their posts, you guys can duke it out, maybe that is needed, I just felt constrained to share what I did, not meddle. |
minutus (minutus)
Advanced Member
Username: minutus
Post Number: 872
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.99.87.66
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 8:08 pm: |
|
Don't worry, Patricia. I appreciate Daved very much and he's welcome to post whatever he wants. Just an opinion. Daved your transcriptions have been invaluable, a great service to all. I don't get the name thing though. I call Him Jumala and Tanri as well  . |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 214
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 141.154.9.15
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 12:27 am: |
|
Thanks minutus, I wondered if I am too diplomatic in the face of heated emotions. I don't want to stifle anyone. I do appreciate the posts that I can't relate to because they show me another side to things. I just can't presume on motives, but I love Boss's fire too. Maybe it is hard for me to see things that intensely. |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 302
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.128.64
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:00 am: |
|
Daved;
I think the KJV is a wonderful translation.
I don't know why Carl would use something he has no appreciation for as the innerrant word of God.
Personaly,I trust the Lords ability to use the KJV,NIV,Amplified,NKJV or the King James Open Bible.There are some I have not mentioned because I have a swiss cheese memory but you get the point.
There are many helpful translations that remain true to the context and do not stray from the original meaning.
That is how faithful the Lord is.You see,He knows which translation will be more easily understood by each individual according to their ability.
What a great God we serve!
De 10:17
God of gods, and Lord of lords - That is, He is the source whence all being and power proceed; every agent is finite but himself; and he can counteract, suspend, or destroy all the actions of all creatures whensoever he pleases. If he determine to save, none can destroy; if he purpose to destroy, none can save. How absolutely necessary to have such a God for our friend!
A great God - mighty - האל הגבר hael haggibbor, the mighty God; this is the very title that is given to our blessed Lord and Savior, Isa 9:6.
Amen to the Lord of Lords!
Your brother in Christ,
Dave} |
jayso (jayso)
Junior Member
Username: jayso
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.205.150.205
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:53 am: |
|
boss_martian: I literally laughed outloud while reading: as translated from the Lost Scrolls of Slappy, boss_martian is pronounced "goony googoo".
My name in Hebrew is: Yachiel, but is just Jay in English; not "J"! I've never been to Israel and probably still want to be called "Jay". Thanks for the good laugh. |
arguendo (arguendo)
Advanced Member
Username: arguendo
Post Number: 587
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 9:59 am: |
|
Well, well. The Boss is back from diplomacy training.
Honesty is a good thing. Daved's a man and he can go tell Boss to take a long walk off of a short pier if he thinks he was out of line.
Patricia, Daved is posting over and over because he wants a response. No one here has a guarantee of a positive response when they post, nor should they have such a guarantee.
I think the playing nice with the other kids thing is overvalued and raw honesty undervalued. Honesty is what is going to save your ass, not platitudes.
Daved, time to make your point. Patience is wearing thin. |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 228
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.203.77.129
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
|
Arguendo,
I actually tend to agree with you. I am resigning as diplomat today. It wasn't platitudes at all though arg, it was really a gut response. I'm just getting to know boss on a more personal level and my respect for him is enormous. I just can't take on a different personality than the one I have. I can duke it out with the best of them. The good thing about this forum is that we do not have to explain our motives about everything but we can ask questions. It is tiring to react to everything. At least I think so.
I did say my point was not to referee, and that duking it out could be good, my only concern was Boss.
Patricia |
arguendo (arguendo)
Advanced Member
Username: arguendo
Post Number: 588
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
|
Patricia, why are you defending yourself?
My opinion differs with yours. Period. No discussion , no negotiation. Just the way it is, and it's okay.
Boss is a warrior. He runs with the big dogs. He's fine, he's just pissed. |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 229
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.160.172.236
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 11:04 am: |
|
It isn't a defense arguendo. I have spoken with Boss. I don't think it is a matter of opinion only but sometimes clarification of our expressions of our opinions. It is just a different orientation. You have not hurt my feelings believe me. I know the boss man is still boss and wouldn't want to dilute him in any way. Hey I will never stop learning arg. but sometimes I would like a break from thinking. I'm disconnecting the computer today. Missing too much sunshine.
I'm fine, I was frustrated by the long unending dispute over God's name but my way is to ignore it. Viva la difference..see ya.. |
preston (preston)
Junior Member
Username: preston
Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 69.169.190.139
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
|
Regardless, there is no need for 10 seperate threads on the same exact topic. Bump up one old thread that is relevant to you, Daved and keep within that thread. The topic you deem important stays alive, those that agree with your subject value will be able to locate it and the rest of us will no longer have to wade through the monopoly of new threads in order to get to the subjects WE deem relevant. |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 126
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.215.161
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
|
On Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 6:41 pm boss_martian wrote the text in black font below:
My answers, if any, are in red font:
If an ant was walking across the floor and passed gas, would it stink?
Meanwhile, someone else got sucked into a cult.
Meanwhile, someone else is wondering if they are still a Christian if they leave GGWO.
That sounds like me.
I wonder if I would still be a Christian [assuming I am one today]
if I was to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
Meanwhile, someone else is wondering if they'll ever get to speak to their son or daughter or mother or father.
Meanwhile someone else is wondering if leaving GGWO will result in losing all of their friends.
Or their spouse.
Daved and those that are furiously debating the difference between "happy" and "glad", oops, whether God's name is Yahweh, Jehovah, or Cletus,
why don't you pray and ask God what His name is?
I have.
Since this is SO important and it is clear that God is going to condemn people to Hell for calling him by the wrong name, it should be pretty easy to for the Holy Spirit to lead you the right answer.
Easier said then done.
Jehovah’s Witnesses and KJVO Christians and GGWO Christians are probably absolutely positive that they are honoring God by the precise name that the Holy Spirit [or the Holy Ghost] wants them to
I can only assume that Pastor Carl Stevens was absolutely certain that God wanted him to confess to a national audience that he was wrong to have taught that God’s name was “Jehovah” for over 30 years. And Pastor Carl Stevens did that on “The Grace Hour” in the 1990’s,
And I assume that in the first 30 years of his ministry, Pastor Carl Stevens was absolutely certain that the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost wanted him to teach that God's name was "Jehovah".
I assume that Pastor Carl Stevens believed that Jehovah was anointing his every message during the years he believed and taught that God's name was 'Jehovah"
And of course during the 1980's Jack Hyles prayed to the Holy Spirit [or maybe the Holy Ghost] and he was told that he should preach that God’s name was “Jehovah”. And strange as it may seem, Pastor Carl Stevens probably believed that Jack Hyles was one of only two men that were above him in the government of God. Some members of FACTNet believe that Jack Hyles may have been Pastor Carl Stevens’ pastor teacher.
I think that pastor Carl Stevens only started being dogmatic in his teachings about “Yahweh” after Jack Hyles died.
This is certainly a free forum and people can write whatever they want.
I agree.
Well here's my two cents worth:
This is the stupidest fucking waste of time I have ever seen.
I am not kidding in the least.
This is certainly a free forum and people can write whatever they want.
Daved, you have started at least ten threads dedicated to a debate with no value whatsoever.
This is certainly a free forum and people can write whatever they want.
NONE. Exactly what do you hope to get out of this?
You have been going on and on and on.
Do you think you will find an answer here?
Probably not, it’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
Are you doing it to intentionally piss people off?
NO!!!!!
Bible scholars, Talmud scholars, you-name-it scholars have gone around and around on this.
Do you honestly think that you are going to find an answer here?
Probably not, it’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
Christianity teaches the way to live your life and the way to have eternal life!
The Bible tells about how THE UNIVERSE, every physical and non-physical aspect of experience was created from nothing!
It speaks of a Being that has always been and will always be!
And that being has a Hebrew name.
These are wondrous things that absolutely boggle the mind and touch the soul!
And what intrigues your mind far and away more than any of this?
God's name.
God writes in the scriptures that His name is rather important to Him.
That's it, God's name.
You cannot let it go.
God writes in the scriptures that His name is rather important to Him.
Are you helping one person,
EVEN ONE PERSON better their life,
find some comfort, and have a closer relationship with God?
I include your own personal self in that question.
I’m trying to help myself, but I’m probably not being very successful.
it’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
What it is going to take to get an answer?
I suppose if I trusted Pastor Carl Steven’s dogmatic teaching that God’s name is Yahweh
and that any Christian who believes that Jesus is Jehovah incarnated is ignorant and needs to repent, that might end my quest.
This is one of the reasons people don't get involved in religion.
People go around and around and FUCKING around over bullshit like this and guess what?
It doesn't help anyone!
NOT ONE PERSON!
This is certainly a free forum and people can write whatever they want.
I'm asking you again,
how is this helping a brother or a sister?
It probably isn’t. it’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
Exactly what good does it bring to the world?
Probably none.
It’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
What is going to satisfy you for an answer?
I suppose if I though Jesus wanted me to trust Pastor Carl Steven’s dogmatic teaching that God’s name is Yahweh and that any Christian who believes that Jesus is Jehovah incarnated is ignorant and needs to repent, that would satisfy me.
It hasn’t happened!
And what are the consequences for getting it wrong?
Well as you may or not know, boss_martian, Pastor Carl Stevens claims to be the head of a “preciseness ministry”. And he claims you and everyone else on FACTNet will be responsible for his teaching about “Yahweh” at the Bema Seat [his term not mine] whether you heard his teaching or not, so of course God will not allow you to use the excuse that you never heard Pastor Carl Stevens’ teaching.
Of course if Pastor Carl Stevens is the leader of a cult, my answer does not apply.
That's the important one to ME, what are the consequences for getting it wrong?
If Pastor Carl Stevens is actually the head of a “preciseness ministry” you will find your answer at the Bema Seat [his term not mine]
Of course if Pastor Carl Stevens is the leader of a cult, my answer does not apply.
What are the rewards for getting it right.
You will have to ask Pastor Carl Stevens.
Of course if Pastor Carl Stevens is the leader of a cult, my answer does not apply.
Please, don't let my heathen ass stop you from addressing this most important issue.
If I should stay, I certainly won’t.
but it’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back.
Lord
forgive me for taking up Daved's valuable time before he finds out what Your name is.
Remember it's boss_martian.
Not Boss Martian.
I'm VERY offended if you spell it any other way.
I made every effort to spell your name as you want it to be spelled.}
And remember, as translated from the Lost Scrolls of Slappy,
boss_martian is pronounced "goony googoo".
P.S.
Just in passing I do believe that "YaH:WeH" is the "presumed original pronunciation of God's name" as agreed upon by 19TH Century Scholars.
It is quite possible that Gesenius's fingerprints are all over the "scholarly reconstruction" "YaH:WeH" which is found in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon.
daved
(Message edited by daved on June 24, 2005) |
lana (lana)
Intermediate Member
Username: lana
Post Number: 178
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
|
Bored stiff! So much going on is too important! JESUS,JESUS,JESUS,JESUS!!!!! |
steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)
Member
Username: steve_quinlan
Post Number: 62
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 67.40.55.210
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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daved, I appreciate your earnestness in this matter, but I wonder if you may be failing to see the forest for the trees.
The Christian mystic Meister Eckehart once wrote,
So wenig man für Gott einen eigentlichen Namen finden mag,
so wenig kann man der Seele eigentlichen Namen finden.
(very roughly translated:
As one may scarcely find God’s true name,
So scarcely is one able to find the soul’s true name.)
Or as the Buddhist master Lao-tse said long ago,
“The name that can be named is not an eternal name.”
The intent of these two is the same as that of the author of Exodus who has this exchange occur between Moses and God:
“But Moses said to God, ‘If I come to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?’ God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM.’ He said further, ‘Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’’ God also said to Moses, ‘Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’:
This is my name forever,
and this my title for all generations.”
God is the one whose name is no name – the one who cannot be named. Objects are things that “exist.” They may be examined, studied and named by human subjects ("Man gave names to all the animals." -Bob Dylan). Neither God nor human souls are objects in this sense (Eckehart’s point). God is not “someone,” as in “one among others,” much less “something.” As Paul Tillich expressed it, “God does not exist, God IS.” “GOD IS.” This is as close as we dare come to a name for God. Remember, the bush IS burning and IS NOT consumed. And it is a shoeless Moses who is told not to come near.
Points made about Hebrew grammar or Jacobean English altogether miss the point.
What does this have to do with TBS/GGWO? My opinion: As in most fundamentalist/literalist groups (and minds) there is way too much fear of getting things wrong (read: being "off"). Fear stultifies freedom and in freedom is the only way we can begin to know God or ourselves.
SQ |
minutus (minutus)
Advanced Member
Username: minutus
Post Number: 877
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 207.156.7.250
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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Technicolor circle jerk! |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 127
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.215.161
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 2:13 pm: |
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I answered boss_martian's questions at 1:49 p.m.
The last three posters may not have been aware of that,
as they were probably preparing their posts before I posted my answers to boss_martian.
daved |
boss_martian (boss_martian)
Advanced Member
Username: boss_martian
Post Number: 561
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.61.123
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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LMAO wrote:
"Boss, the thread is called:
What does God's name mean in the Hebrew Language?
If you are not interested in the topic, why not just ignore it?"
Because it's not just this one thread! It's at least ten, maybe more! And nearly every other thread has some reference to this, too! I can't swear to this, but I think he even posted something about God's name in the Bostor Red Sox thread! It's everywhere!
Yes, he can post whatever he wants. So can the trolls that posted nine pages of Scripture with no commentary. If someone wants to post the entire Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew mysteries in Swahili, yep, they can do that, too. It's a free forum, write what you want.
But this forum is supposedly to help people get out of a cult. I thought it was to expose GGWO for what it is and to show that there is more to life than worshipping some evil bastard in a weird wig. At least that's why I've been here.
daved wrote:
"It’s probably time to walk away from both GGWO and FACTNet and never look back."
Finally, you've written something that resonates with me. Actually, you have posted transcripts of Grace Hour and Convention, but of course you can't make three posts in a row WITHOUT BRINGING UP GOD'S NAME, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE!
But back to your statement about leaving. I think it's time for me to beat feet myself. As stated by many, it's a free forum and we're all free to write and read what we want.
Or not.
I came here not because I was ever in GGWO. I fell in love with a woman that was in. My hope and prayers were that she would get out. While things certainly didn't turn out the way I hoped, she did get out. I thought that "saving" her might "save" me. So, I got heavily involved with Factnet and other anti-GGWO activities.
Well, she's out, but like a lot recent departees, she's probably going to either Steve or Paul Stevens' "group". (I can't bring myself to call either of these groups a church.) As if those places are healthy. I guess if your church experience has to center around a personality and has to be a three ring circus, well, that's the place to go. It seems like that's what the "body" wants.
Where does this end? What will constitute victory? How many more people are going to crash and burn while Paul and Steve and the other miraculously cured "pastors" unlearn the bullshit? That is, if they even want to. Seems like all they want to do is grow a WORLD WIDE MINISTRY! AWESOME! HOW HUMBLE AND BROKEN!
I read a lot of references to "accountability", but it seems like just another word. Accountability would be for these pastors to MAN THE HELL UP and admit they participated in recruiting for a cult and that a lot of people paid the price for their human pride. These pastors talk a big game about accountability, unless of course it threatens their job. It doesn't mattter that people like Nancy Curra are left high and dry, but I'm supposed to cry and feel sorry because these humble and broken "men of God" would lose their job if they did the right thing. I don't consider any man a pastor that puts his income above doing the right thing. These guys should think back to the amount of effort they put into loading up on a bus and invading neighborhoods and recruiting. Are you pastors loading up buses to go out and reach the people YOU SCREWED OVER? Doubt it. You might lose your precious job if you admitted what you did. Better to change your name and modify your website. After all, YOU HAVE A FAMILY TO FEED. Wish you thought about the families you had a hand in wasting when you were doing it, but I guess you weren't "led" to do that. It seems like doing the right thing is the LAST thing these guys want to do. And no one holds them accountable. Hopefully, the police will.
I did what I set out to do and my prayers were answered, just not like I had hoped. I find it hard to believe in happy endings. This cult has divided and changed its name. The Stevens legacy will live on. The pastor still has the same name.
I have spent too much time getting involved in a war that won't be won as long as truth and accountability aren't foremost. I don't even know what the hell I'm fighting for anymore. I do know that for the first time in over a year, the sun is shining, the air smells good, and I'm slowing starting to realize that as long as I pine away for a woman who would rather serve some weird religion, no matter how beautiful, I'll never meet someone that is capable of giving as much of herself as I am of giving myself. So I've been in this for the wrong reasons. Let the theological minds hash this out, let the daveds of this world ponder the name of God or if Jesus was a vegetarian, or if Adam had a belly button, for these are truly the problems of this world.
Write it down, people, I've actually been wrong.
The best thing for me is to think globally, act locally. She's out. She's a big girl, hopefully, she'll do some of her own thinking and not let some villain named Stevens do it for her. But that is her call. I just figured that one out, but you knew I was slow.
So, I'm done. I have met some wonderful and amazing people along the way on this forum. I'm praying for big time healing for all the wounded. I'm getting out before this gives me ulcers.
I promised I wouldn't make some huge melodramatic exit, but I lied once again. I've made a decision to go back to being happy and avoid the hyper-spiritual in everything. I used to be happy all the time. Life is too damn short not to be.
Daved, I have been a stumbling block to your quest to find the name of God. Put it on every thread, dude! Forgive me.
I listed my e-mail on several threads. Drop me a line sometime, meet me for a beer or some coffee. If you see a bald guy playing bass in an amazingly mediocre way in a Baltimore rock band , ask him if he's boss_martian.
He might say yes.
Toodles,
boss_martian
Part animal,
Part machine. |
lana (lana)
Intermediate Member
Username: lana
Post Number: 179
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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Your'e O.K. Boss, I hear you A god path is before you. Prayers |
ariel (ariel)
Intermediate Member
Username: ariel
Post Number: 133
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 68.162.139.195
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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Boss,..."toodles"?
say it aint so!
I have always enjoyed your colorful commentary. |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 231
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.203.70.21
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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Boss,
You have touched my life deeply and I look forward to staying in touch. Maybe this decision doesn't have to be hard and fast Boss-man, but a break for a while. You have a certain sound Boss,
I have a different way of sharing, but you have helped me tremendously.
Love,
Patricia |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 214
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 7:12 pm: |
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Daved,
I hope you're still here & see this.
>Why do you say that the "he" in the 3rd position of HYH is a real "he" (as opposed to a fake one)?
Ack! I screwed up and said this just exactly backwards. In "real" 3rd He verbs, the He is original, and the preceding vowel is a pathach furtive. In "fake" 3rd He verbs (like HWH, "to be") the He was originally a Yodh or a Waw back in Early Northwest Semitic or whatever preceded Hebrew. These verbs take a segol before the He in the imperfect.
>Are you saying that you believe that the final "he" in HYH is pronounced, and is not a consonant being used to indicate a vowel?
I believe it's a consonant. The preceding segol (short e) should have lengthened if it weren't pronounced. For me personally, though, a pronounced H at the end of a word differs little from a silent one.
>Do you believe the same is true for HWH,
and that the final "he" in "YaH:WeH" should be pronounced?
In theory, although I most frequently hear people pronounce YHWH as though it ended in a long A.
>Were any of your Hebrew classes at GGWO,
or did you study Hebrew somewhere else?
No, I went to a different seminary.
I know that this discussion is really annoying to some. I suppose Schaller would denounce it for "intellectualism" so I'd like to believe we're doing something right. Daved has made a very important point. It is not as though Carl Stevens taught correctly and just didn't follow it himself; Carl Stevens taught a number of things incorrectly.
Hodeuon |
lana (lana)
Intermediate Member
Username: lana
Post Number: 185
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 209.240.205.61
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |
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Its not just annoying but irevelant to anything we can think of at this moment at this time. |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 924
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.107.236
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 3:00 am: |
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As far as I remember there is no J or W in the hebrew alphabet except I think it'd be a stretch to put in the vowels schwa or "aw" as w but nothing I know of is a J. |
jayso (jayso)
Member
Username: jayso
Post Number: 58
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.205.150.205
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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Amen Doug! The tetragram is Yud Hey Vave Hey -YHVH! So Jehova and Yahweh may both be incorrect speculation on how The Almighty's name is pronounced. Why don't Christians leave this debate and perhaps listen to what thousands of Jewish scholars have to say on this issue?
I am a Jew by birth and a Christian by NEW birth! While I disagree with Rabbinical Judaism with respect to the rejection of Jesus as Saviour, I do not disagree with the entire body of Jewish teaching concerning the YHVH.
Daved and others, please read the post below I got from a Jewish website. The last 3 or so paragraphs are in BOLD and address the Yahweh, Jehovah issue. Thanks, Jay
(Message edited by jayso on June 26, 2005) |
jayso (jayso)
Member
Username: jayso
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.205.150.205
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
|
http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm
The Significance of Names
In Jewish thought, a name is not merely an arbitrary designation, a random combination of sounds. The name conveys the nature and essence of the thing named. It represents the history and reputation of the being named.
This is not as strange or unfamiliar a concept as it may seem at first glance. In English, we often refer to a person's reputation as his "good name." When a company is sold, one thing that may be sold is the company's "good will," that is, the right to use the company's name. The Hebrew concept of a name is very similar to these ideas.
An example of this usage occurs in Ex. 3:13-22: Moses asks God what His "name" is. Moses is not asking "what should I call you;" rather, he is asking "who are you; what are you like; what have you done." That is clear from God's response. God replies that He is eternal, that He is the God of our ancestors, that He has seen our affliction and will redeem us from bondage.
Another example of this usage is the concepts of chillul Ha-Shem and kiddush Ha-Shem. An act that causes God or Judaism to come into disrespect or a commandment to be disobeyed is often referred to as "chillul Ha-Shem," profanation of The Name. Clearly, we are not talking about a harm done to a word; we are talking about harm to a reputation. Likewise, any deed that increases the respect accorded to God or Judaism is referred to as "kiddush Ha-Shem," sanctification of The Name.
Because a name represents the reputation of the thing named, a name should be treated with the same respect as the thing's reputation. For this reason, God's Names, in all of their forms, are treated with enormous respect and reverence in Judaism.
The Names of God
I have often heard people refer to the Judeo-Christian God as "the nameless God" to contrast our God with the ancient pagan gods. I always found this odd, because Judaism clearly recognizes the existence of a Name for God; in fact, we have many Names for God.
The most important of God's Names is the four-letter Name represented by the Hebrew letters Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh (YHVH). It is often referred to as the Ineffable Name, the Unutterable Name or the Distinctive Name. Linguistically, it is related to the Hebrew root Heh-Yod-Heh (to be), and reflects the fact that God's existence is eternal. In scripture, this Name is used when discussing God's relation with human beings, and when emphasizing his qualities of lovingkindness and mercy. It is frequently shortened to Yah (Yod-Heh), Yahu or Yeho (Yod-Heh-Vav), especially when used in combination with names or phrases, as in Yehoshua (Joshua, meaning "the Lord is my Salvation"), Eliyahu (Elijah, meaning "my God is the Lord"), and Halleluyah ("praise the Lord").
The first Name used for God in scripture is Elohim. In form, the word is a masculine plural of a word that looks feminine in the singular (Eloha). The same word (or, according to Rambam, a homonym of it) is used to refer to princes, judges, other gods, and other powerful beings. This Name is used in scripture when emphasizing God's might, His creative power, and his attributes of justice and rulership. Variations on this name include El, Eloha, Elohai (my God) and Elohaynu (our God).
God is also known as El Shaddai. This Name is usually translated as "God Almighty," however, the derivation of the word "Shaddai" is not known. According to some views, it is derived from the root meaning "to heap benefits." According a Midrash, it means, "The One who said 'dai'" ("dai" meaning enough or sufficient) and comes from the fact that when God created the universe, it expanded until He said "DAI!" (perhaps the first recorded theory of an expanding universe?). The name Shaddai is the one written on the mezuzah scroll. Some note that Shaddai is an acronym of Shomer Daltot Yisrael, Guardian of the Doors of Israel.
Another significant Name of God is YHVH Tzva'ot. This Name is normally translated as "Lord of Hosts." The word "tzva'ot" means "hosts" in the sense of a military grouping or an organized array. The Name refers to God's leadership and sovereignty. Interestingly, this Name is rarely used in scripture. It never appears in the Torah (i.e., the first five books). It appears primarily in the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, as well as many times in the Psalms.
Writing the Name of God
Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood").
Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.
The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God.
It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in newsgroup messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it.
Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is normally written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about using letters as numerals.
Pronouncing the Name of God
Nothing in the Torah prohibits a person from pronouncing the Name of God. Indeed, it is evident from scripture that God's Name was pronounced routinely. Many common Hebrew names contain "Yah" or "Yahu," part of God's four-letter Name. The Name was pronounced as part of daily services in the Temple.
The Mishnah confirms that there was no prohibition against pronouncing The Name in ancient times. In fact, the Mishnah recommends using God's Name as a routine greeting to a fellow Jew. Berakhot 9:5. However, by the time of the Talmud, it was the custom to use substitute Names for God. Some rabbis asserted that a person who pronounces YHVH according to its letters (instead of using a substitute) has no place in the World to Come, and should be put to death. Instead of pronouncing the four-letter Name, we usually substitute the Name "Adonai," or simply say "Ha-Shem" (lit. The Name).
Although the prohibition on pronunciation applies only to the four-letter Name, Jews customarily do not pronounce any of God's many Names except in prayer or study. The usual practice is to substitute letters or syllables, so that Adonai becomes Adoshem or Ha-Shem, Elohaynu and Elohim become Elokaynu and Elokim, etc.
With the Temple destroyed and the prohibition on pronouncing The Name outside of the Temple, pronunciation of the Name fell into disuse. Scholars passed down knowledge of the correct pronunciation of YHVH for many generations, but eventually the correct pronunciation was lost, and we no longer know it with any certainty. We do not know what vowels were used, or even whether the Vav in the Name was a vowel or a consonant. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about the difficulties in pronouncing Hebrew. Some religious scholars suggest that the Name was pronounced "Yahweh," but others do not find this pronunciation particularly persuasive.
Some people render the four-letter Name as "Jehovah," but this pronunciation is particularly unlikely. The word "Jehovah" comes from the fact that ancient Jewish texts used to put the vowels of the Name "Adonai" (the usual substitute for YHVH) under the consonants of YHVH to remind people not to pronounce YHVH as written. A sixteenth century German Christian scribe, while transliterating the Bible into Latin for the Pope, wrote the Name out as it appeared in his texts, with the consonants of YHVH and the vowels of Adonai, and came up with the word JeHoVaH, and the name stuck.
© Copyright 5756-5760 (1996-1999), Tracey R Rich |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 926
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.134.204
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
|
Jayso,
Christ revealed himself to me in such a way that I can't read the OT without seeing him woven into the 5 books of Moses. It's so simple but so profound, so hidden yet clear.
When I was in hebrew school and even after it was all mumbo jumbo to me but when I read the NT the door to my heart opened and a new man in me saw new things. I'd e mail some of the things Messiah taught me about himself but they are not on this topic to post them here. chasemyra@verizon.net |
jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)
Intermediate Member
Username: jim_kennedy
Post Number: 220
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 172.156.132.37
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
|
boss_martian, (to know boss_martian, you must call him by his name...)
I always enjoyed your posts and your sense of humor on Factnet. I'm sorry things didn't work out the way you'd hoped with the girl or with GG. What seems so easy to see for someone "outside" is often murky and cloudy for those who have been in for years. It's called being brainwashed and some never seem to really get free from it. "Where does this end?" Good question.
As a parting gift, I give you this story:
A guy is walking on the beach in LA and finds a bottle. He removes the cork and out pops a Genie.
"You have freed me! I have the power to grant you a wish..."
The man thinks for a minute. "You know I always wanted to see Hawaii but I'm afraid to fly. My wish is I want you to build a bridge from LA to Hawaii."
The Genie becomes indignant. "Do you have any idea how complex an engineering problem it is to build a bridge like that...how much concrete and steel are needed? I'm not God, I'm a Genie. You have to make another wish."
The man thinks again. "You know, I met this girl and I'm crazy about her but there are problems. I need to know how she feels...what she wants. My wish is I want to understand women."
The Genie stroked his beard and thought for a minute. "How many lanes do you want that bridge?"
Good luck boss_martian, and it's ok to break your promise and come back. Rock On.
Jim
(Message edited by jim kennedy on June 26, 2005) |
jayso (jayso)
Member
Username: jayso
Post Number: 60
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.205.150.205
| | Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:55 pm: |
|
I've heard it said "The Old Testament has the New Testament concealed" and "The New Testament has the old testament revealed".
Hebrew school was a daily tedious chore for me from 8yo to 13yo. It's amazing I learned anything! The services every Saturday were grueling (4 hours) and most of it in gibberish because even though I could read and write the Hebrew, I didn't understand most of it. I guess it must have been like that to some of the old Catholics who heard Latin every Sunday and didn't understand it. Thank God for Pentecost (Acts 2) when all heard the "gospel in their own languages".
Praise YHVH, HE reached out to me in English and revealed Himself to even me who read the KJV and prayed the "sinner's prayer" in ENGLISH! At 18, I learned that indeed "salvation was of the Jews" but NOT "through the Jews". Salvation is through Jesus, the Messiah and none else! Baruch Hashem Hamoshiach Yeshua!
My Hebrew (birth) name is "Yachiel", which means God Lives! Funny how I only believed HE LIVES after I "converted" to CHRISTIAN! God does work in mysterious ways.
I'd love to hear from you, Doug. My email is jayso13827@yahoo.com . Were / are you in TBS/GG? |
louise_connolly (louise_connolly)
Intermediate Member
Username: louise_connolly
Post Number: 365
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.61.151.107
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 12:12 am: |
|
Boss:
May you find a woman worthy of you!
It will be a shame to loose a voice of someone who really really knows. The big cult is dispersing to many little cults. It is all they know how to do to feed themselves and their families. I am with you in the belief of that reality.
Drop by now and again.
Thanks for helping us to fight the good fight! Be Happy! Love, Louise
(Message edited by louise connolly on June 27, 2005) |
david_munson (david_munson)
Advanced Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 535
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.235.29.254
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 3:34 am: |
|
I thought it might be fun to bring this up again in the Spirit of interesting things to know.
I found this on Lambert Dolphins website and thought Daved might enjoy it.
The Names of God
by Lambert Dolphin
Old Testament (The Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanach):
EL: God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT. See the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Elohim.
ELOHIM: God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs); Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, 32 times in Gen. 1. God as Creator, Preserver, Transcendent, Mighty and Strong. Eccl., Dan. Jonah use Elohim almost exclusively. See Gen. 17:7, 6:18, 9:15, 50:24; I Kings 8:23; Jer. 31:33; Isa. 40:1.
EL SHADDAI: God Almighty or "God All Sufficient." 48 times in the OT, 31 times in Job. First used in Gen. 17:1, 2. (Gen. 31:29, 49:24, 25; Prov. 3:27; Micah 2:1; Isa. 60:15, 16, 66:10-13; Ruth 1:20, 21) In Rev. 16:7, "Lord God the Almighty." The Septuagint uses Greek "ikanos" meaning "all-sufficient" or "self-sufficient." The idols of the heathen are called "sheddim."
ADONAI: Lord in our English Bibles (Capitol letter 'L ', lower case, 'ord') (Adonai is plural, the sing. is "adon"). "Master'' or "Lord" 300 times in the OT always plural when referring to God, when sing. the reference is to a human lord. Used 215 times to refer to men. First use of Adonai, Gen. 15:2. (Ex. 4:10; Judges 6:15; 2 Sam. 7:18-20; Ps. 8, 114:7, 135:5, 141:8, 109:21-28). Heavy use in Isaiah (Adonai Jehovah). 200 times by Ezekiel. Ten times in Dan. 9.
JEHOVAH: LORD in our English Bibles (all capitals). Yahweh is the covenant name of God. Occurs 6823 times in the OT First use Gen. 2:4 (Jehovah Elohim). From the verb "to be", havah, similar to chavah (to live), "The Self-Existent One," "I AM WHO I AM" or 'I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3. The name of God, too sacred to be uttered, abbreviated ( . . . . ) or written "YHWH" without vowel points. The tetragrammaton. Josh., Judges, Sam., and Kings use Jehovah almost exclusively. The love of God is conditioned upon His moral and spiritual attributes. (Dan. 9:14; Ps. 11:7; Lev. 19:2; Hab. 1:12). Note Deut. 6:4, 5 known to Jews as the Sh'ma uses both Jehovah and Elohim to indicate one God with a plurality of persons.
JEHOVAH-JIREH: "The Lord will Provide." Gen. 22:14. From "jireh" ("to see" or "to provide," or to "foresee" as a prophet.) God always provides, adequate when the times come.
JEHOVAH-ROPHE: "The Lord Who Heals" Ex. 15:22-26. From "rophe" ("to heal"); implies spiritual, emotional as well as physical healing. (Jer. 30:17, 3:22; Isa. 61:1) God heals body, soul and spirit; all levels of man's being.
JEHOVAH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner." Ex. 17:15. God on the battlefield, from word which means "to glisten," "to lift up," See Psalm 4:6.
JEHOVAH-M'KADDESH: "The Lord Who Sanctifies" Lev. 20:8. "To make whole, set apart for holiness."
JEHOVAH-SHALOM: "The Lord Our Peace" Judges 6:24. "Shalom" translated "peace" 170 times means "whole," "finished," "fulfilled," "perfected." Related to "well," welfare." Deut. 27:6; Dan. 5:26; I Kings 9:25 8:61; Gen. 15:16; Ex. 21:34, 22:5, 6; Lev. 7:11-21. Shalom means that kind of peace that results from being a whole person in right relationship to God and to one's fellow man.
SHEPHERD: Psa. 23, 79:13, 95:7, 80:1, 100:3; Gen. 49:24; Isa. 40:11.
JUDGE: Psa. 7:8, 96:13.
JEHOVAH ELOHIM: "LORD God" Gen. 2:4; Judges 5:3; Isa. 17:6; Zeph. 2:9; Psa. 59:5, etc.
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU "The Lord Our Righteousness" Jer. 23:5, 6, 33:16. From "tsidek" (straight, stiff, balanced - as on scales - full weight, justice, right, righteous, declared innocent.) God our Righteousness.
JEHOVAH-ROHI: "The Lord Our Shepherd" Psa. 23, from "ro'eh" (to pasture).
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH: "The Lord is There" (Ezek. 48:35).
JEHOVAH-SABAOTH: "The Lord of Hosts" The commander of the angelic host and the armies of God. Isa. 1:24; Psa. 46:7, 11; 2 Kings 3:9-12; Jer. 11:20 (NT: Rom. 9:29; James 5:4, Rev. 19: 11-16).
EL ELYON: 'Most High" (from "to go up") Deut. 26:19, 32:8; Psa. 18:13; Gen. 14:18; Nu. 24:16; Psa. 78:35, 7:17, 18:13, 97:9, 56:2, 78:56, 18:13; Dan. 7:25, 27; Isa. 14:14.
ABHIR: 'Mighty One', ("to be strong") Gen. 49:24; Deut. 10:17; Psa. 132:2, 5; Isa. 1:24, 49:26, 60:1.
BRANCH: (tsemach), The Branch: Zech. 3:8, 6:12; Isa. 4:2; Jer. 23:5, 33:15.
KADOSH: "Holy One" Psa. 71:22; Isa. 40:25, 43:3, 48:17. Isaiah uses the expression "the Holy One of Israel" 29 times.
SHAPHAT: "Judge" Gen. 18:25
EL ROI: "God of Seeing" Hagar in Gen. 16:13. The God Who opens our eyes.
KANNA: "Jealous" (zealous). Ex. 20:5, 34:14; Deut. 5:9; Isa. 9:7; Zech. 1:14, 8:2.
PALET: "Deliverer" Psa. 18:2.
YESHA: (Y'shua) "Savior" Isa. 43:3. Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Joshua." The latter is a contraction of Je-Hoshua. ("Christ", the anointed one is equivalent to the Hebrew Maschiah, or Messiah).
GAOL: "Redeemer" (to buy back by paying a price). Job 19:25; For example, the antitype corresponding to Boaz the Kinsman-Redeemer in the Book of Ruth.
MAGEN: "Shield" Psa. 3:3, 18:30.
STONE: Gen. 49:24
EYALUTH: "Strength" Psa. 22:19.
TSADDIQ: "Righteous One" Psa. 7:9.
EL-OLAM: "Everlasting God" (God of everlasting time) Gen. 21:33; Psa. 90:1-3, 93:2; Isa. 26:4.
EL-BERITH: "God of the Covenant" Used of Baal in Judges 9:46. Probably used originally to refer to the God of israel.
EL-GIBHOR: Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
ZUR: "God our Rock" Deut. 32:18; Isa. 30:29.
Malachi calls Messiah "The Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2).
Isaiah calls Messiah "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibhor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6).
'Attiq Yomin (Aramaic): "Ancient of Days," Dan. 7:9, 13, 22.
MELEKH: "King" Psa. 5:2, 29:10, 44:4, 47:6-8, 48:2, 68:24, 74:12, 95:3, 97:1, 99:4, 146:10; Isa. 5:1, 5, 41:21, 43:15, 44:6; 52:7, 52:10.
"The Angel of the Lord: " Gen. 16:7ff, 21:17, 22:11, 15ff, 18:1-19:1, 24:7, 40, 31:11-13, 32:24-30; Ex. 3:6, 13:21, Ezek. 1:10-13. Seen in the theophanies, or pre-incarnate appearances of the Son of God in the OT (See I Cor. 10:3 NT).
FATHER: 2 Sam. 7:14-15; Psa. 68:5; Isa. 63:16, 64:8; Mal. 1:6.
THE FIRST AND LAST: Isa. 44:6, 48:12.
New Testament Scriptures, (Greek):
KURIOS: (kurios) "Lord" Found some 600 times in the NT.
DESPOTES: (despotes) "Lord" 5 times: Lu. 2:29; Acts 4:24; 2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 4; Rev. 6:10.
THEOS: (yeos) "God" (equivalent to the Hebrew Elohim), 1,000 times in the NT. In the NT all the persons of the trinity are called "God" at one time or another.
I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life" in John's Gospel. From the Hebrew OT verb "to be" signifying a Living, Intelligent, Personal Being.
THEOTES: "Godhead" Col. 2:9; Rom. 1:20.
HUPSISTOS: "Highest" Mt. 21:9.
SOTER: (soter) "Savior" Luke 1:4 7.
WORD: (logos) John 1:1ff
ALMIGHTY: (pantokrator) 2 Cor. 6:18, Revevaltion, 9t, e.g. 19:6.
JESUS: Derived from the Hebrew "Joshua" (Y'shua) or "Je-Hoshua" meaning JEHOVAH IS SALVATION.
CHRIST: is equivalent to the Hebrew 'Messiah' (Meshiach), "The Anointed One."
Other NT Titles for Jesus: Shepherd of the Sheep; Master; King of kings; Lord of lords; Bishop and Guardian of our Souls; Daystar, Deliverer, Advocate, Last (or Second) Adam, Ancient of Days, Branch, Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, First Born, Head of the Body, Physician, Rock, Root of Jesse, Stone, Potentate; Chief Apostle; Great High Priest; Pioneer and Perfecter of our Faith (or Author and Finisher); Lamb of God; Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the World; Lord God Almighty.
LOGOS: "The Word of God" John l; Rev. 19:13.
SOPHIA: "The Wisdom of God," referring to Christ, refers back to Proverbs (I Cor. 1,2)
Father, Son, Holy Spirit: Christian orthodoxy has always understood God to be One God in Three Persons (Elohim). In The NT each person of the godhead is called "God" and "Lord" at least once.
---------------------------------
Just for you Daved,with Love
Dave
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 139
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.210.25
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 6:09 am: |
|
david_munson
Thank for your post.
Your post listed:
>>>
JEHOVAH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner." Ex. 17:15. God on the battlefield, from word which means "to glisten," "to lift up," See Psalm 4:6.
>>>
On Wednesdays,
The Grace Hour plays "Classic Messages" by Pastor Carl Stevens.
Recently in one of these "Classic Messages"
Pastor Carl Stevens discussed Ex. 17:15
and specifically discussed "JEHOVAH-NISSI",
even asking the congregation if they knew what "JEHOVAH-NISSI" meant?
I can only assume that at the time this message was first given,
Pastor Carl Stevens believed that Jehovah was anointing his every message.
Daved
(Message edited by daved on July 08, 2005) |
david_munson (david_munson)
Advanced Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 538
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.235.27.79
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
|
You are welcome Daved.
I stumbled across this on one of the sites I have and I thought of you right away.I am glad that you enjoyed it.
In His Love,
Dave} |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 238
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 10:57 am: |
|
Great list!
Whether El and Allah are linguistically related is a debated point.
Unlike English, Hebrew does have a dual form for when you're talking about two people or things. So the -im masculine plural ending does indeed indicate three or more. However, like English, Hebrew can use a "royal plural" - a monartch refering to himself in the plural. So while the name Elohim allows for the later revelation of the Trinity, it's not fair to say that name Elohim teaches that God is the Trinity. I believe there are Old Testament passages that hint at this, and this caution is as much to myself as to anyone else.
Adonai - The singular is adon, but adonai is not the plural. Hebrew has normal pronouns but it can also attach a pronoun suffix to the end of a word. Adonai is "my lord". While Adonai is used of God, it is also used of people (Abraham in Genesis 23:6, for example) - "my lord" is roughly equivalent to the English "Sir".
Hodeuon |
john_munson (john_munson)
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Username: john_munson
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 65.131.8.183
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
|
one thing we need to consider in attempting to pronounce the YHWH spelling of the name of the lord....first of all the hebrew's claim that it is not a pronouncable word for the human tongue.....another thing to consider is that although there are no vowels in the hebrew language every translation uses vowels except for the name of the lord YHWH.....if you look at this from a vocalization point of veiw (think back to english class) first what sound does yh make.......what sound does wh make......if you place these 2 sounds together it is not pronouncable.....it sounds more like breath or maybe even the wind......try to pronounce all 4 letters together.....it is my opinion that this spelling of the lords name YHWH is as the hebrews claim is unpronouncable to the human tongue......quite possibly both jehovah and yahweh are not the correct pronunciation of the lords name......} |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 140
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.213.128
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 6:46 am: |
|
john_munson says:
>>>
it is my opinion that this spelling of the lords name YHWH is as the hebrews claim is unpronouncable to the human tongue
>>>
http://www.houseofsteed.com/shofar/downloads/Tetragram.PDF
The text below is found at the link above:
>>>
THE TETRAGRAM
AN APPEAL FOR A FINAL RES0LUTION
We were prompted to do this study because of the disturbing remark we read in Grote Winkler Prins Encyclopedie (Dutch),that the uncertainty as to the true pronunciation of the Name constantly causes embarrassment to Bible translators.
But this uncertainty causes much perplexity as well as embarrassment to all believers.
Although not always admitted, we firmly believe that this uncertainty has been a major reason for us to be satisfied with, and rather accept and use the surrogate of the Tetragram, up to this day.
Surely, the prophetic promise of the revelation of His Name has been given to us, and must be fulfilled:
1. "Therefore My People shall know My Name", Isa. 52:6.
2. “and they shall know that My Name is YHWH", Jer. 16:21.
3. "For then will I turn to the people a pure language (lip), that they may all call upon the Name of YHWH”, Zeph. 3:9.
4. “and we will walk in the Name of YHWH our Elohim for ever and ever”, Micah 4:5.
5. "And ye shall ... praise the Name of YHWH your Elohim”, Joel 2:26.
6. "they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them", Zech. 13:9.
7. "they shall walk up and down in His Name, saith YHWH”, Zech. 10:12.
8. "So I will make My holy Name known in the midst of My People Israel”, Eze. 39:7.
9. "and I have made Thy Name known to them, and will make it known", John 17:26 NASB. This is a fulfillment of the prophetic promise of Ps. 22:22 which is also repeated in Heb. 2:12. But John 17:26b clearly promises a further fulfillment, for us too.
Before we proceed, we would like to warn against placing undue emphasis on the Name and neglecting the most important, i.e. emphasis 'due to the Person Himself.
This can be prevented if we realize that shem in Hebrew means much more than name in English. Shem in Hebrew, as we find it in the Scriptures, is not a mere label of identification.
It is an expression of the essential nature of the bearer.
Very often it speaks foremost of the authority of the person e.g. Ex. 23:21, John 5:43.
A person's name reveals his character and often it is the person that is revealed.
It also comprises that person's stability, his faithfulness and his justice; and even the remembrance of that person.
To reiterate, in Hebrew ha shem identifies the person and his character; and his personality identifies his name.
The person, his authority and his name are one, in Hebrew.
We should be extremely careful not to detach the Name from His Person.
But let us be assured: an unseen person cannot be identified by our visual perception. An unseen person can only be identified by his name.
Likewise, our Heavenly Father must also be identified by His Name.
>>>
FWIW
daved
(Message edited by daved on July 11, 2005) |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 975
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.113.105
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
|
http://www.nkox.homestead.com/files/some_additions___corrections__Who_Cganged_God_s_Name_545_568_HTML2.htm
Check this out for YHWH |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 976
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.113.105
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 11:31 pm: |
|
soul1958 (soul1958)
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Username: soul1958
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 69.128.155.201
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 4:45 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, jenny. Here’s my opinion. Kox’ research holds up under what I have been taught and from what I have been able to gather in these last couple hours. However, IN MY OPINION, Kox is a kook, and a religious one at that… a religious fear-monger. (I realize now why I never finished the article!)
First, though I had great hopes for him when I discovered he lives in my state (Green Bay, WI), I was immediately put off by his use of certain words that shows his purpose for this particular writing: (and I hope I’m getting these ref paragraph #s correct, bear with my mistakes)
“This gross error…” (parg 20);
“There can be no doubt…this is an antichristian statement.” (parag 22)there can always be doubt.;
“We must … and then use that name for the glory of God, even if the world (including the religious world) hates us for it.” (Parag 23)
And those are just where he starts.
“If we call God Jehovah we dishonor him…” (28)
It is easy to see that Jehovah is not a sacred name but rather a Lucifer imposter.” (29) it's easy to be led..)
I can’t continue; I’m sure you can find more yourself. Just note especially how his little comments, his personal commentary make you feel? (shamed? Belittled? Ignorant? Stupid?)
You can find out more about Kox and his life and art at http://www.rawvision.com/back/kox/kox.html. “After a bad drug overdose Kox experienced a vision that was the key factor in turning his thinking towards spiritual matters.”
His art is FANTASTIC! But… that doesn’t make him a guru. From the rawvison article:
(Kox is quoted) 'I was trapped in a hideous hell-circle, and thought I would never return, I prayed so hard and promised if God would only get me out of this, I would surely change my ways... From then on, everything was a lesson, and I was beginning to learn. Little by little I began to change. The process took several years...By 1975 I had done all I could to reform my life. I was [still] on the road to self destruction... and it all showed up in the self portraits [I was painting]. I started to feel that there was more to this life than what we see... One night in prayer I felt the presence of God and that's what really changed me. From then on I didn't want to do anything wrong again. This is the moment that God forgave me... He completely removed all desire for alcohol and drugs. This is when my life really changed. Suddenly it was all worth it... I wanted to find [in God's Scripture] the key to life, and the secrets of living.'
'About six months after that initial experience, I received an inner calling to drop everything, give away all my possessions, and go into the north woods wilderness [outside Suring, Wi.] and live as a hermit. So I did. That was the beginning of a ten year spiritual hermitage, of prayer, meditation, and intense Scripture study, as well as a study of the religions of the world.'
(Get my drift!!??)
I’d tell you – take the knowledge, do with it what you will – just make sure it’s YOUR will and not his conviction of you….
“If changing a man’s name shows one’s power and authority over him, what are we doing when we change God’s name? When cutting off a man’s name is the same as destroying him, do we dare cut off God’s name?"
As far as I’m concerned, Mr. “cocks” can get fricasseed.
(With no offense or disrespect to David for his contribution to our knowledge. (GOD! let me say that with emphesis!!) Like I said, the names of jesus and god have been changed, but to meet, I believe, the needs of God’s people within cultures and times.) |
jayso (jayso)
Intermediate Member
Username: jayso
Post Number: 124
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.205.150.205
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 1:19 am: |
|
Doug, thanks for that web link. It is interesting, but I believe the author is duped about the name of "Yesu" or "Yeshu" being the correct historical name for Jesus. I am quoting from another website:
"The Jewish leaders of Yahshua's day could not accept that Yahshua was the Son of Elohim, the Meshi-Yah or Anointed of Yah. Therefore, because they viewed Him as an imposter who was claiming authority He did not posses, they set out to change His name to Yeshu. This is an acronym (yod, shin, waw), y'shu, standing for three Hebrew words "yiddish sh'm o w'zither". Translated, this means " May his name and memory be blotted out". (Tol'doth Yeshua page 7) These Medieval writings confirmed they felt they (Jewish leaders of Yahshua's day) were fulfilling the scriptures that say, "Cursed be everyone that hangs on tree", (Duet. 21:22-23). "
http://www.eliyah.com/AOY/Yahshua.html |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.224.243
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 10:54 am: |
|
On Thursday, July 21, 2005, doug posted a link to the Article below:
EXPOSITION ON THE NAMES YESU-YAHWEH AND JESUS-JEHOVAH
by
Norbert H. Kox
(C. 2002)
I think that doug has provided a link to an Article
that Pastor Carl Stevens would probably approve of,
at least in certain portions.
I have posted a portion of this article.
Much of the portion of this Article that I have posted,
would probably be approved by Pastor Carl Stevens.
Blue font was used by me
[in two instances]
to indicate that I definitely do not believe that "Adonay" in Hebrew
has an initial "e" type Hebrew Vowel
Snip/snip
>>>
At that time the ancient Illuminati were using the Jewish hierarchy
for their own evil purpose and plan.
These elitists had already hoped to rule the world.
Many have conjectured that the reason the ancient Jews forbade the use of the name Yahweh
was purely out of reverence,
for fear that the name might be taken in vain and profaned by the goyim
(people, masses, nations, pagans, heathens).
But perhaps the reason went much deeper.
It may have been a compromise toward the goyim whom they wished to win over,
so to keep from offending pagan ears
the name Yahweh was replaced by the more common terms of “Lord” and “God”.
It may also have been to keep this powerful name of salvation for the elite only,
thus eliminating the "chaff" from the Kingdom of God,
while at the same time causing them to believe they were part of it.
In the reading of the Hebrew Scriptures,
when the name YHWH was encountered,
the term Adonai (Lord) was pronounced in its place.
As we have seen, this practice dated from at least the 3rd century B.C.
Following after this custom the Masoretes,
about the 8th century A.D.,
introduced their vowel points into the Hebrew text
and consequently rendered the name YHWH
with the vowel pointing of the word “Adonai”
??????????(Heb. ‘eDoNaY) ?????????????????
supposedly to assure that the reader would not pronounce the YHWH as YaHWeH
but would rather insert the word “Adonai”.
This later created a problem for Christian Scribes
(unfamiliar with Hebrew practice)
yet attempting to translate the Hebrew Scriptures.
???????These vowels from Adonai (e-o-a) written into the name YHWH,
rendered it as YeHoWaH.???????
With the facts in front of us,
we can see that Yehowah is not Yahweh.
It is a total misnomer.
Not only did the ancient Jewish hierarchy take away the key of knowledge,
but also the Masoretes
(Hebrew scholars and scribes)
added deceptive vowel signs to the divine name
thus causing the ignorant and uninformed to mispronounce it.
In their supposed attempt to keep the name from being profaned by the goyim,
they were actually causing that profanation and blasphemy.
Malachi 2, which rebukes the priests for not giving glory to the name YHWH,
also rebukes the Masoretes and the modern scholars
who further perpetrate their fraud:
“Judah hath profaned the holiness of YHWH ...
YHWH will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar ...” (Malachi 2:11-12).
Judah (the Jews) had perpetrated the counterfeiting of the false name,
which continues to this day,
thus profaning the name of Yahweh.
“What! You say, ‘We are wise, we do have his directions’
when lo, your scribes have written them wrong and falsified them?
No, the ‘wise’ shall be discomfited, dismayed and tricked.
They have rejected Yahweh’s Word so what wisdom have they?”
(Jeremiah 8: 8-9, Moffatt).
Because of the deceptive vowel points,
the name Yahweh became Yehowah.
The Latin spelling of this new name was Iehovah
(later Jehovah, pronounced Yehowah).
“Jehovah’ is generally held to be the invention of Pope Leo X’s confessor,
Peter Galatin [‘De Arcanis Catholisae Veritatis,’ 1518, folio xliii.].”
(The Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. 7: p. 88).
Before the 16th century the “J” did not exist in any language of the world.
Where did it come from?
The J originated as a variant of I:
the I is derived from the Greek iota and the Semitic yod.
The I was used as both a vowel and a consonant.
Its consonantal sound was that of the English y.
Sometime in the late 16th century,
printers began to prolong the letter I
when it appeared as a first or last letter of a word.
As an initial letter it extended above and below the line
and ended with a curve.
As a final form it would extend below the line,
used in Latin forms as ‘filij’,
and numerals like j, ij, iij, vj, viij, xij, etc.
In English it was sometimes used
where y had previously been substituted for a final i.
It was not until the 17th century that the i was reserved as a vowel
and the j as a consonant,
and the capital forms of the letter J were introduced
(Oxford English Dictionary, vol. 5: p. 67).
The differentiation was first made in Spanish,
where the capital I had represented both forms,
but right around 1600 the capital J began to appear.
German printers employed the tailed form of the letter j.
Louis Elzevir, who printed at Amsterdam and Leiden 1595-1616,
is generally accredited with making the distinction of u and v, i and j;
afterwhich in 1619 the capitals U and J were introduced by Lazarus Zetzner of Strasburg. “
The Jj types are not used in the Bible of 1611”
and “In Dictionaries,
the I and J words continued to be intermingled in one series
down to the 19th c." (ibid.).
The letter J retained the same consonantal "y" sound as its former I.
In Anglo-Saxon or Old English there was no J sound.
The “dzh” sound of the Modern English J was introduced through the Old French
(in modern French the sound is “zh”).
It was through the German influence that the w took on the v sound
and through the French that the modern English J lost its “y” sound,
being replaced by the dzh sound as in jet.
Although a few sources believe this may have come about by the 11th century,
most references agree that the change did not occur before the late 16th or early 17th century.
The name Jehovah is a very recent invention,
which, as it is pronounced in the English speaking countries,
could not possibly have existed before this time.
It could never have appeared in the inspired Scriptures
since the Hebrew language did not have a “J” sound.
Jehovah: English transliteration of the Divine name,
based on a misunderstanding of the Hebrew text,
which should probably be read Yahweh.
(The Concise Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 277).
... commonly represented in modern translations by the form “Jehovah”,
which, however is a philological impossibility.
(The Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. 9: p. 160).
Jehovah:
A mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians,
but most entirely disregarded by the Jews) of the Hebrew “YHWH,”
the (ineffable) name of God
(the Tetragramrnaton or ‘Shem ha-Meforash”).
This pronunciation is grammatically impossible ... (ibid. vol. 7: p. 87).
Jehovah, a hybrid form for the divine name
which originated in the mistaken idea that the consonants of the Tetragrammaton,
YHWH (really pronounced “Yahweh”),
were to be read with the vowel points found with them in the Masoretic Text...
thus by combining these vowels with the consonants of the Tetragramrnaton,
he mongrel form, “Yehowah,” came into being,
which with the English consonant j in place of the y
and with the German pronunciation of the w as v,
produced in turn the quaint form of “Jehovah.”
(Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible, p. 1109).
This gross error was definitely made by Christians.
The Jews had given up pronouncing the name since the 3rd century B.C.
It would be better to follow the Jewish tradition in not pronouncing the name at all,
rather than to use the falsified name Jehovah.
If we know of this deception and yet continue to perpetrate the lie,
we are definitely profaning and blaspheming the name of YHWH.
Would anyone purposely continue to publish this lie?
In answer to this question
see what the Jehovah's Witness' have to say
in the forward to the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures:
“While inclining to view the pronunciation ‘Yah-weh’ as the more correct way,
we have retained the form ‘Jehovah’ because of people’s familiarity with it ...“
(The same quote is found
in the preface of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, 1969).
There can be no doubt that this is an antichristian statement,
for the Apostle Paul said, “...do I now persuade men or God? or do I seek to please men?
for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”
(Galations 1:10).
We must determine the proper pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton,
and then use that name, for the glory of God,
even it the world
(including the religious world)
hates us for it.
Can we be sure of the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton
without the proper diacritical points to determine the vowels?
>>>
snip/snip
The author has given his answer to the question:
"Can we be sure of the correct pronunciation of the tetragrammaton
without the proper diacritical points to determine the vowels?"
but I chose to snip/snip the article at that point.
daved
(Message edited by daved on July 23, 2005) |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 982
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.82.41
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
|
Daved,
Not sure I get the point of your last post ???? |
doug (doug)
Advanced Member
Username: doug
Post Number: 985
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.111.82.41
| | Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
|
I wonder how the Samaritans, a remnant of the northern tribes that have not changed since ancient times and were not caught up in all of Judah's stuff and keep the teaching and practice of Moses, I wonder how they pronounce the name???? |
jayso (jayso)
Intermediate Member
Username: jayso
Post Number: 126
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.205.150.205
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 1:58 am: |
|
According to an article written by a Samaritan scholar, they do not pronounce the "name" of God. They say the letters of the tetragram individually. Here is a quote:
"The Samaritans never pronounce the Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey as a complete word but as letters one after the other: Yoot-Eay-Baa-Eey or the nickname Shema (=the Name). The meaning of Yoot-Eay-Baa-Eey is written already in the Torah and Shema has explained it to Moses: I will be as I will be, which means I will expose myself in the way I will choose, by myself or by sending my angel or expressing my word through my messenger - the prophet =Moses ("Moushe") or a prophet like Moses that will be sent by me at the right time, just before the end of the days. This is what he did indeed and this is what Shema will do."
http://www.mystae.com/reflections/messiah/samislam/shema.html |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 146
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.209.207
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 4:15 am: |
|
Doug asks:
>>>
Daved,
Not sure I get the point of your last post ????
>>>
I just though that you provided a link to an interesting article,
that agrees with much that Pastor Carl Stevens teaches.
E.G. Pastor Carl Stevens dogmatically teaches that God's name is "YaHWeH",
and that Jehovah is a mongrel name.
Norbert H. Kox's article agrees,
and I felt that it was a well written article,
that explains a lot about the name Jehovah.
I critiqued Fox's contention that Adonay written in Hebrew is (Heb. ‘eDoNaY).
AND
I critiqued Fox's contention that these vowels from Adonai
(e-o-a)
written into the name YHWH, rendered it as YeHoWaH.
Other than that I thought the article was well written.
For what it is worth,
b-hebrew is presently discussing the vowels of YHWH
as they are preserved in the Leningrad Codex [1008-1010]
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-July/date.html
Several of the Hebrew scholars who post on b-hebrew,
beleve that the Samaritan spelling "IaBe",
indicates that YHWH was pronounced "YaH:WeH".
An issue that hasn't been dealt with very much
is the issue that in about 170 B.C.
the Samaritans
[under duress]
named their temple: “the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius”
which would seem to indicate they were not worshipping YHWH at that time.
"Jove" is thought to be the name of Jupiter.
"Jove" and "IaBe" are pronounced similarly.
Try pronouncing the "o" in Jove, like the "o" in "Joshua"
e.g. J(awe)v(eh) sounds very much like "Jahve"
daved
(Message edited by daved on July 23, 2005) |
|
