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daved (daved)
Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 96
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.228.28
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:01 am: | 
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The title of this thread is:
What does God's name mean in the Hebrew Language?
What does the Hebrew name "Yehovah" mean in Hebrew?
What does the Hebrew name "Yahweh" mean in Hebrew?
Pastor Carl Stevens often quotes Exodus 34:6, and says that God's name means:"merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth"
>>>
Exod 34:6 KJV says:
And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
>>>
However, I believe that Pastor Carl Stevens is only quoting some attributes of God, he is not actually explaining what God's name means.
Many Hebrew scholars believe that YHWH is a Hebrew verb form.
There are Hebrew scholars on the b-Hebrew Discussion Board that will try to analyze the "scholarly reconstruction" Yahweh, but when push comes to shove, they have to acknowledge that they don't really know if "Yahweh" is an actual Hebrew word.
And very few (if any) Hebrew scholars who post on b-hebrew would even attempt to analyze the name "Yehovah" because they don't believe it is an actual Hebrew name, even though it is found in the Masoretic Text.
daved |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 192
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Exodus 3
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'
As for why it looks like a verb form:
"I am that I am" - 'eHeYeH 'aSHeR 'eHeYeH
LORD - YHWH, vocalized YaHWeH or YeHoWaH or YeHoViH
Hodeuon |
daved (daved)
Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 98
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.213.119
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Hodeuon
When God speaks His own name in Exodus 3:14,
he uses [aleph-segol-heh-shewa-yod-segol-heh]
which is transliterated into English as eH:YeH.
http://www.ibiblio.org/bhebrew/
The link above gives the Transcription Guidelines used on b-hebrew.
And the King James Bible translates [aleph-segol-heh-shewa-yod-segol-heh]
as "I AM"
So in this case when God pronounces His own name [i.e. eH:YeH],
it means "I AM"
However some scholars believe that when God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that "YHWH" had sent him,
that YHWH in Hebrew might have meant "He that is".
So God tells Moses that His name is "I AM"
and
Moses tells the children of Israel that "He that is" has sent me.
Clement of Alexandria wrote that:
"Iaoue = YaH:WeH" means "who is and shall be"
daved |
bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Advanced Member
Username: bob_brinton
Post Number: 972
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.109.236.73
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
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In He who is I Am, all things have their being. That's rather profound. Every aspect of our existence depends entirely on Him. Makes human pride look a bit silly. |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 103
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
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Daved, I appreciate your study in these matters. What I am failing to grasp is what is it about CHS treatment of this subject that bothers you so much? |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 104
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
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Daved, you wrote on another thread:
I think that Pastor Carl Stevens believes a Christian will suffer loss at the Bema Seat if that Christian is not pronouncing God's name correctly in this life.
I realize that CHS has a big target on his chest here on factnet and some of the arrows are deserved, but I have never in 25 years heard him make any statement that could remotely imply such a thing. Please enlighten me. |
daved (daved)
Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.213.119
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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Imao says:
>>>
Daved, I appreciate your study in these matters. What I am failing to grasp is what is it about CHS treatment of this subject that bothers you so much?
>>>
Imao,
I would truely like to honor God by the name "Yahweh"
if Pastor Carl Stevens and the Roman Catholic Church are correct.
Wouldn't you want to honor God by the name "Yahweh"
if Pastor Carl Stevens and the Roman Catholic Church are correct?
Even if GGWO was a cult, wouldn't you want to honor God by the name "Yahweh" if in this one point GGWO was correct.
Pastor Carl Stevens
Pastor Schaller
Pastor Paul Stevens [MIA]
Pastor Steve Stevens [MIA]
Dr. Lewis [MIA]
Pastor Marr
Pastor Love
Pastor Scibelli
The above Pastors all believe that God's name is "Yahweh".
The Roman Catholic Church believes that God's name is "Yahweh".
Maybe they are right.
Of course if they are right,
that means that all of protestant Christianity was in error since 1525 when Tyndale wrote God's name as "Iehouah".
All the men below taught that God's name was "Iehouah/Jehovah"
Tyndale,
Luther,
Calvin,
The KJV translator of 1611
The KJV editors of 1762-1769
Spurgeon
Schofield
Jack Hyles who may have been Pastor Stevens' pastor.
I'd like to be on the right side of this issue,
so I continue to study this issue,
and I try to get feedback from others.
daved
P.S.
The main problem that I have with this issue probably has nothing to do with Pastor Carl Stevens and GGWO.
The main problem I have is that the Hebrew name "Yahweh" is found in no extant Hebrew Text.
It is a presumed name, derived from the writings of several Greek Fathers.
However this does not seem to bother either the Roman Catholic Church, or Pastor Carl Stevens,
so I do try to understand the reasons why Pastor Carl Stevens believes,
and I do try to understand why the largest Christian Church in the world believes.
(Message edited by daved on June 19, 2005) |
lmao (lmao)
Intermediate Member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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Daved, If all the men who taught that God's name was "Iehouah/Jehovah" were wrong, then they were wrong. I assume they did the best they could based on the information they had at the time. Would God somehow hold them accountable for something they did in ignorance. I do not think so. |
whitehorses (whitehorses)
Intermediate Member
Username: whitehorses
Post Number: 316
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:04 pm: |
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i think it should be spelled backwards with the hebrew lettering to complete accuracy.
maybe if its played backward like the beatles white album we might get some inspiration from some diety 
(that is said in jest for all the overly sensitive who read) |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 194
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
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I think that Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Spurgeon would probably say that 'Jehovah' was the translation of 'Yahweh' into their languages. I do not believe any of them would have a problem with saying that God's name is Yahweh.
It is not just GG and the RCC that teaches God's name is Yahweh. Most evangelicals do, too. Take your pick of accredited seminaries.
Hodeuon |
nonotone (nonotone)
Intermediate Member
Username: nonotone
Post Number: 271
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.211.160.204
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:18 pm: |
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Hodeuon, writes:
It is not just GG and the RCC that teaches God's name is Yahweh. Most evangelicals do, too. Take your pick of accredited seminaries.
... but do the representatives of these seminaries make an issue of this by making comparative remarks about the names Jehovah and Yahweh?
FWIW, on many other threads DAVED has quoted CHS from the Grace Hour, etc. on this issue. I have personally heard CHS make similar references in Sermons and ABD classes.
A quick search of the "Theological Journals Library" (an electronic collection of the major conservative American Seminary Journals from the past 80 years or so) yields more "hits" for Yahweh than for Jehovah overall. However the 'Bib Sac' (Dallas Theological Seminary Jorurnal - which up until the late 1970's pretty much represents the underlying theology of CHS/TBS/GGWO) yields the most hits for each name (1753 for Jehovah and 1643 for Yahweh).
Of course my little "data mining" exercise is entirely unscientific and proves very little without actually examining the context these names in which these names are used in the representative Journal articles.
Schaff's History does not mention 'Yahweh' at all, but uses 'Jehovah' 31 times. The Church Fathers Library does not use 'Yahweh' but mentions 'Jehovah" 32 times. Again no proof is being attempted on my part here - just simple information.
Lewis Sperry Chafer's "Systematic Theology" seems to use the name Jehovah pretty consistently. This really perplexed me when I began reading Chafer because I new that CHS got much of his early foundation from extensively reading Chafer. I did not think that CHS would contradict a scholar of Chafer's standing on an issue like this.
It is interesting that in fact the KJV only uses the tranlsated name JEHOVAH a total of 4 times.
So it seems like the issue reduces to how to pronounce the name of God spelled YHWH in the Hebrew text - not issues of translation. I would be interested in futher study on how this has been treated by Bibliologists throughout the history of textual transmission, criticism, and translation.
An old acquaintance of mine is an excellent Hebrew Scholar who teaches at Calvin College and just got his PhD from Westminster Philadelphia doing Hebrew studies in the minor prophets. He is going to be preaching at our (PCA) Church next month. I'll try to remember and ask him about the Jehovah vs. Yahweh issue.
In Christ,
Brian Bowman
1 Corinthians 8:2-3 |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 101
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.214.135
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 7:31 am: |
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hodeuon said:
>>>
I think that Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Spurgeon would probably say that 'Jehovah' was the translation of 'Yahweh' into their languages. I do not believe any of them would have a problem with saying that God's name is Yahweh.
>>>
I have a KJV Study Bible by W.A. Criswell written in 1979. In the study notes this bible does try to imply that "Yahweh" is translated as "Jehovah".
I have a Jerry Falwell KJV Study Bible that implies the same thing, that Yahweh is translated as "Jehovah".
Hovever Tyndale and Luther and Calvin never heard of the name "Yahweh" during their lives. They believed what the Masoretic Text said, and the Masoretic Text spelled God's name as "Yehovah"
Luther was dogmatic that God's name was "Jehovah",
and he disputed the Jews that said YHWH could not be pronounced.
Luther believed in Sola Scriptura and the Hebrew scriptures he was familiar with spelled God's name YeHoVaH.
In fact I can assume that the Hebrew text that GGWO Christians use also spells God's name as "Yehovah". However GGWO pastors do not trust the Hebrew Scriptures that underlie the Old Testament of the KJV.
If you ever hear Pastor Carl Stevens say that the "Original Hebrew" says that God's name is "YaHWeH" ask him to show you any Hebrew Text that spells God's name as "YaHWeH".
And then ask him to show you the Hebrew Text that he uses to study the Hebrew scriptures. Five will get you ten, that GGWO is studying a Hebrew text that spells God's name as "YeHoVaH"
daved
P.S. A Bible Student at Bob Jones University told me that in their Hebrew Studies they were not allowed to pronounce God's name as it was spelled in the Masoretic Text they used. It was spelled "YeHoVAH" in the Masoretic Text that they used at BJU.
He said every other word in the Hebrew Text they pronounced as it was spelled but they were required to pronounce "YeHoVaH" as if it had been spelled "YaH:WeH". |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 220
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.196.8
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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God's name:
God's name means that we have hope in the Son.
God's name means the work has been done.
God's name means that now we are one.
God's name means in Christ we are one.
As I mentioned in another post,"as long as we don't call Him allah."
Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave} |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.211.205
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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But never call Data Datah
Data gets very upset if you call him Datah.
When a woman on Startrek Next Generation asked Data why he didn't want to be called Datah,
he coldly told her "because my name is Data"
daved |
anon_brief (anon_brief)
Intermediate Member
Username: anon_brief
Post Number: 423
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Daved,
Poor example for analogy.
Data is an android who finds it difficult to understand humanity.
For me, this is about as contrary a concept of God as there can be. |
forte (forte)
Junior Member
Username: forte
Post Number: 49
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.251.144.6
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:02 pm: |
|
yeah AND Data doesn't have an emotion chip! |
hms_surprise (hms_surprise)
New member
Username: hms_surprise
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 67.40.55.210
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:19 pm: |
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"So in this case when God pronounces His own name [i.e. eH:YeH],
it means "I AM" "
So whose lips did Old What's His Name borrow to "pronounce" his name? Moses'? Everybody knows Moses had a speech impediment, so maybe he was trying to say "Larry" and it just came out as "Yahweh." |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 163
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.163.98.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
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No disrespect intended, but when I saw the :
eH:YeH
it made me think of the Maine tourist shirts that say:
Ay Yah been there.
Smile..... |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.156.15.149
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
|
Ayah,
Sure hope the rain keeps up.
That way it won't come down
daved |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 165
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.163.98.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
|
Daved tbat reminds of a joke this little Jewish couple used to tell me. They used to own the Log Cabin just outside of Lenox center and their names were Abe and Sarah!
Here's the joke:
A woman yells to her husband who is reading in his recliner:
"Ira, shut the window, it's cold outside."
He yells back:
"What, if I shut the window is it going to get warm outside?"
They told these jokes over and over, (because they forgot they had told them before)
They were adorable. This little "goy" loved them. |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 166
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 68.163.98.39
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
|
Omigosh, a whole torrent of their jokes just flooded my brain.
Here is another one.
(If you can picture this cute little couple in their nineties delivering these and waiting wide eyed for our response you would understand why i cherish these memories, right rollochef???)(Remember:They ought to picking their grapes right now or something Bob. B used to say in the kitchen)
Joke:
A woman comes home after visiting her husband in the hospital.
Her neighbor sees her going in the house and asks her: "How is your husband doing?"
The woman replies:"The doctor says that he's improving"
The next day the neighbor sees her again and repeats the question:"How is your husband doing today?"
The woman replies:"He's still improving."
This went on for a few days, the answer always the same.
One day the woman comes home and sure enough the neighbor was there:"How is your husband doing?"
The woman replies: "He's dead."
Shocked the neighbor responds, "What did he die from?"
The woman replied: "Improvements."
Is that cute or what. Abe and Sarah always told these jokes with a Jewish flair because they didn't want to insult any one elses background..so they used their own. Cute!! |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.231.64
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
|
On Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:28 pm,
hodeuon said:
>>>
I think that Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Spurgeon would probably say that 'Jehovah' was the translation of 'Yahweh' into their languages.
I do not believe any of them would have a problem with saying that God's name is Yahweh.
It is not just GG and the RCC that teaches God's name is Yahweh. Most evangelicals do, too. Take your pick of accredited seminaries.
>>>
hodeuon,
This is my second reply to your question.
I would hope that Luther would have a major problem saying that God's name is "Yahweh".
Luther is the originator of "SOLA SCRIPTURA",
and the vocalization "YaH:WeH" is preserved in no extant Hebrew Scriptures.
Luther would have to apologize to the Pope, for causing schism,
if he was to say that he believed that God's name was "YaH:WeH"
One of the reasons that Luther separated from the Roman Catholic Church
was that they taught doctrine that had no support in the scriptures.
BUT WHERE IN THE EXTANT SCRIPTURES
HAS GOD PRESERVED THE VOCALIZED "HEBREW" SPELLING "Y-A-H-W-E-H"?
"Yahweh" is a presumed vocalization of God's name.
I suspect that Gesenius's fingerprints are all over the "scholarly reconstruction" "YaH:WeH", as he was using it before his death in about 1842.
However Smith's 1863 "A Dictionary of the Bible"
says that Gesenius "adopted" this "scholarly reconstruction"
so someone before Gesenius may have actually coined this Hebrew vocalization.
daved |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 196
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 8:05 pm: |
|
Daved,
There is a difference between sola scriptura and textual criticism. Sola scriptura means we draw doctrine from Scripture alone, not from traditions or decrees of the Church leadership. Textual criticism attempts to arrive at the original text of Scripture.
It is this original text that was inerrant. Doctrinal statements from several Bible colleges follow:
We Believe . . .
In the verbal and plenary inspiration of the original manuscripts of the Old and New Testaments, which constitute the inerrant Word of God.
-Baptist Bible College, Clarks Summit PA
Article I. The Scriptures -- We believe that the original writing of the Holy Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, are verbally, plenarily, and inerrantly inspired of God and that they constitute the absolute authority in all matters of faith and practice (11Timothy 3:16, 17; Psalm 119:105). We believe in the literal, historical, grammatical and contextual interpretation of the Bible, which reveals divinely determined dispensations defining man's responsibilities under God in successive ages (Ephesians 3:2-10).
-Davis College, Johnson City NY
The sixty-six canonical books of the Bible as originally written were inspired of God, hence free from error. They constitute the only infallible guide in faith and practice.
-Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton MA
The Scriptures
We believe the Scriptures of the Old Testament and the New Testament are the Word of God and are verbally inspired of God and inerrant in the original writings. We believe that this inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the Scriptures, and that they are the supreme and final authority in faith and life. John 17:17; Galatians 3:16; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:19-21.
-Lancaster Bible College, Lancaster PA
Article II
The Bible, including both the Old and New Testaments is a divine revelation, the original autographs of which were verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21).
-Moody Bible Institute, Chicago IL
The Old and New Testaments, inerrant as originally given, were verbally inspired by God and are a complete revelation of His will for the salvation of man. They constitute the divine and only rule of Christian faith and practice.
-Nyack College, Nyack NY
I. We believe in the divine inspiration and authority of the Scriptures. By this is meant a miraculous guidance of the Holy Spirit in their original writing, extending to all parts of the Scriptures equally, applying even to the choice of words, so that the result is the very Word of God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice. Moreover, it is our conviction that God has exercised such singular care and providence through the ages in preserving the written Word, that the Scriptures as we now have them are in every essential particular as originally given and contain all things necessary to salvation.
-Philadelphia Biblical University, Langhorne PA
1. The Scriptures
We believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, verbally inspired in the whole and in the parts, the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21).
-Washington Bible College, Lanham MD
---
As you’ve pointed out, the Hebrew text used by the KJV translators was the Ben Chayyim text (although the influence on the KJV of Tyndale’s English translation and Luther’s German translation should not be underestimated). Later English editions tend to use the Leningrad Codex. As you have also pointed out, God’s name appears in these manuscripts as Yehowah and sometimes Yehowih. You maintain this is correct; I maintain that it is the consonants of the name plus the vowel points from Adonai (and in the case of Yehovih, from Elohim).
However, we have texts older than both the Ben Chayyim and Leningrad. The Dead Sea Scrolls are unpointed; there are no vowels. By the standard that you apply to the New King James and the New American Standard, the Ben Chayyim text cannot be said to be sola scriptura, either, because it adds to what existed in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Moreover, both the Ben Chayyim and Leningrad texts have changes introduced by the scribes. These changes were called tiqqune sopherim, scribal corrections. Fortunately the scribes kept fairly decent lists of what they did.
A couple examples: In Genesis 18:22 the KJV and practically every English version reads, “And Abraham stood before the LORD.” However, the Hebrew originally read “And the LORD stood before Abraham.” Because “to stand before” can be read idiomatically as “to serve”, the scribes changed the biblical text so that no one would think that God served Abraham. There are a couple more examples in Job, in 1:5 where Job offers sacrifice in case his sons “have blessed God in their heart” and in 2:9 where Job’s wife says “bless God and die”. In both cases, the original is “curse” not “bless”. This concept was abhorrent to the scribes, and they promptly changed the biblical text. Most English versions actually return to the original here, since particularly in Job 1:5 the correction makes no sense at all.
If we say that sola scriptura rules out textual criticism then we are left with *NO* biblical texts. We don’t have any of the originals. But if we use textual criticism responsibly, then we can work back closer to the original inerrant text – closer than either the Ben Chayyim or Leningrad or Dead Sea Scrolls would be on their own.
So – how reliable are our English Bibles? Very reliable. Perfect? No. But no major Christian doctrine depends on words about which textual criticism raises major questions. Our English Bibles – and French Bibles and German Bibles, etc. – are accurate enough that we can speak of them as the inspired word of God as long as we remember that this is only insofar as they agree with the originals.
Hodeuon |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.226.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
|
hodeuon
The question remains what is correct Hebrew vocalization of God's name?
At best the oldest Hebrew Text is only partially vocalized,
since in some places consonants are being used to indicate vowels.
So if it turns out that we can not trust any Masoretic Text to preserve the correct Hebrew vocalization of God's name,
and if the Jewish people deny that they have an unbroken tradition in which God's name was preserved,
where do you go, where does Pastor Carl Stevens go to determine that God's name is "YaH:WeH".
You, hodeuon have indicated that you do not believe that Clement of Alexandria's writings are part of your evidence.
That seems to indicate that you must be trusting in the Samaritan pronunciation of YHWH.
I am not aware of any other evidence that indicates that God's name was "YaH:WeH".
Is that your evidence for "YaH:WeH"?
The Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906 believes
that the Samarian pronunciation in the 4th century A.D. was "YaH:VeH".
Do you believe that the Samarian pronunciation alone is sufficient evidence that God's name is "YaH:WeH"?
Have you satisfied yourself that the 16 or so theophoric names starting with "YeHo" can be derived from "YaH".
Can you provide me with a link to any scholarly source that explains how "Yah" changes to "YeHo"
in compound 3-sylable words?
daved |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 258
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.112.156
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:44 pm: |
|
Some notes on the name Jehovah:
Jehovah
the special and significant name (not merely an appellative title such as Lord [adonai]) by which God revealed himself to the ancient Hebrews (Ex 6:2-3). This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place. Whenever this name occurred in the sacred books they pronounced it, as they still do, "Adonai" (i.e., Lord), thus using another word in its stead. The Massorets gave to it the vowel-points appropriate to this word. This Jewish practice was founded on a false interpretation of Le 24:16. The meaning of the word appears from Ex 3:14 to be "the unchanging, eternal, self-existent God," the "I am that I am," a convenant-keeping God. (Comp. Mal 3:6; Ho 12:5; Re 1:4,8.) Eastons Bible dictionary.
Dave} |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Intermediate Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 204
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
|
Daved,
I am not consciously drawing on the Samaritan pronunciation of the name.
Warning to everyone else: much Hebrew grammar follows.
Starting with Exodus 3:14, ‘eH:YeH is “I am”, Qal imperfect, 1st common singular. YHWH in Ex 3:15 sure looks related by ‘eH:YeH 3:14. The Qal imperfect, 3rd masculine singular “He is” would be YiH:YeH.
This discussion is not helped by the fact that certain letters in each of the three root positions cause Hebrew roots to conjugate differently. HYH “to be” manages to fall into an exception category for all three root letters: 1-Guttural, 2-Waw/Yodh, and 3-real He. So it’s a triple exception. Nice, huh?
YHWH may be an archaic form of “He is”, with God using ‘eH:YeH of Himself and expecting Moses to refer to Him as YHWH. First, the easy exception. Verbs with a real He (as opposed to a fake one) in the 3rd position use a short e (segol) as their final vowel in the imperfect. Verbs with waw or yodh in the second postion…well, “explode” was how we characterized it in class. It’s not impossible for the Waw/Yodh to become a U (shurek) or O (holem full) in the imperfect. I think is probably where the O in the Yeho- compound names comes from. Typically the Waw/Yodh in the 2nd root position also makes the first vowel in the imperfect a long A (qames), although I don’t want to hazard a guess as to whether the rules for the 2nd position Waw/Yodh exception or the rules for the 1st position guttural exception take precedence. So YaH:WeH may actually be defensible as an archaic 3rd person masculine singular imperfect form of “to be”.
I hope this helps.
Hodeuon |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 197
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.203.114.204
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 3:12 am: |
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Don't mean to interupt the theological discussion but didn't anyone like abe and sarahs jokes....
Love you,
patricia |
daved (daved)
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Username: daved
Post Number: 121
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.210.25
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 7:25 am: |
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sojourner,
I enjoyed the abe and sarah jokes.
daved |
daved (daved)
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Username: daved
Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.210.25
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 8:04 am: |
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david_munson wrote:
>>>
This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place.
Whenever this name occurred in the sacred books they pronounced it, as they still do, "Adonai" (i.e., Lord), thus using another word in its stead.
The Masoretes gave to it the vowel-points appropriate to this word.
>>>
david,
Like most scholarly sources, your source believes that "Jehovah" is a hybrid name that has the vowels of "Adonai" and does not have the vowels of God's actual name.
When Pastor Carl Stevens says that "Jehovah" is a hybrid name that has no meaning, he has the support of over 90% of modern scholarship.
In about the year 1900 Joseph Rotherham wrote
(He was actually quoting another person):
>>>
...To give the name JHVH the vowels of the word for Lord (Heb. Adonai) and pronounce it Jehovah, is about as hybrid a combination as it would be to spell the name Germany with the vowels in the name Portugal--viz, Gormuna.
The monstrous combination Jehovah is not older than about 1520 A.D.
>>>
Even the Watchtower literature concedes that "Jehovah" has the vowels of "Adonai".
When Pastor Carl Stevens critiques those churches in Baltimore who call God by the name "Jehovah", as being ignorant, he has modern scholarship on his side.
For all practical purposes only KJVO Christians defend the vowels of "Jehovah", as being the actual vowels of God's name.
Maybe if Tyndale and Luther and Calvin had access (in the 16th century) to the information that Pastor Carl Stevens has access to in 2005, they would not have believed that God's name was "Iehouah later to become Jehovah"
daved |
daved (daved)
Intermediate Member
Username: daved
Post Number: 123
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.154.214.24
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 9:36 am: |
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Hodeuon,
Thank you for your post.
Why do you say that the "he" in the 3rd position of HYH is a real "he"
(as opposed to a fake one)?
Are you saying that you believe that the final "he" in HYH is pronounced,
and is not a consonant being used to indicate a vowel?
Do you believe the same is true for HWH,
and that the final "he" in "YaH:WeH" should be pronounced?
hodeoun,
Were any of your Hebrew classes at GGWO,
or did you study Hebrew somewhere else?
daved |
sojourner (sojourner)
Intermediate Member
Username: sojourner
Post Number: 201
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.203.112.242
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
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Hugs david, I was getting insecure, the one name I care about calling God now, is Abba,Father.
Patricia |
david_munson (david_munson)
Intermediate Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 269
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.172.53
| | Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
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