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     joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 453 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
It has been made clear by those LDS who have chosen to post on this site that we are willing to share with you, with total honesty, what we believe. However it is more than clear that the majority of those posting on the LDS threads that their purpose is far from that of educating others of matters "hidden" by the Church, but rather to regurgitate false statements, and twisted charictatures of LDS beliefs. Unfortunately this continues due primarily, I believe to the desire of such people to prove Mormonism wrong, and the false belief that they are justified in blackening the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by whatever means they see fit - change a little, lie a little - it's all OK if it's in the name of Mormon Bashing. What is all the more disappointing are those who once held our beliefs, but intentionally misrepresent them here. I was very grateful to find the article below on another site, and reproduce it here to show those claiming such falsehoods as our not being Christian are really out of step with reality. 'We Have Sinned Against You' A leading evangelical speaks at the Mormon Tabernacle and says evangelicals have spread lies about LDS beliefs. By Richard Mouw For the first time in 105 years, non-Mormons mounted the pulpit at the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City on Nov. 14. The event, dubbed an "Evening of Friendship," was organized by Standing Together, a network of 100 evangelical churches trying to improve relations with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Historical animosity dating back to the founding of the LDS Church has heightened in recent years between the two groups, particularly in the 1990s, when high-profile evangelical leaders said that Mormons are not Christians and the Southern Baptist Convention held one of its annual meetings in Salt Lake City, partially with the goal of converting Mormons to evangelical Protestantism. In what the Deseret News referred to as "stunningly candid" comments, Fuller Theological Seminary president and Beliefnet columnist Richard J. Mouw apologized to Mormons for evangelicals' tendency to distort the truth about Latter-day Saints' beliefs. "Let me state it clearly. We evangelicals have sinned against you," Mouw said. The speech is making the rounds among surprised and generally pleased evangelical and Mormon groups It is difficult for me to find adequate words to express how thrilled I am to be here this evening. Here we are, evangelical Protestants and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, gathered together in this Salt Lake Tabernacle, for an event that is described as “An Evening of Friendship.” I am not being melodramatic when I say that this is surely an historic occasion. To be sure, there have long been friendships between some evangelicals and some LDS folks. But they have not appeared on the public radar screen. Our public relations between our two communities have been—to put it mildly—decidedly unfriendly. From the very beginning, when Joseph Smith organized his church in 1830, my evangelical forebears hurled angry accusations and vehement denunciations at the Mormon community—a practice that continues from some evangelical quarters even into this present day. And I think it is fair to say that some Mormons have on occasion responded in kind. Friendship with each other has not come easily for our two communities. But in recent times things have begun to change. Evangelicals and Mormons have worked together on important matters of public morality. Here in Utah, the Standing Together ministry has been willing to take some considerable risks in countering the more aggressive and disruptive evangelical attacks against the LDS church. And Pastor Greg Johnson’s well-attended dialogues with Professor Bob Millet have done much to model a new spirit of frank but friendly exchange about important faith topics. And now this evening we are experiencing the gracious hospitality of the LDS leadership, who have welcomed us all into this meeting place, which has played—and continues to play—such an important role in the life of the Mormon community. On a personal level, over the past half-dozen years I have been a member of a small group of evangelical scholars who have been engaged in lengthy closed-door discussions about spiritual and theological matters with a small group of our LDS counterparts. We have not been afraid to argue strenuously with each other, but our arguments have been conducted in a sincere desire genuinely to understand each other—and in the process we have formed some deep bonds of friendship. I know that I have learned much in this continuing dialogue, and I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening: we have sinned against you. The God of the Scriptures makes it clear that it is a terrible thing to bear false witness against our neighbors, and we have been guilty of that sort of transgression in things we have said about you. We have told you what you believe without making a sincere effort first of all to ask you what you believe. We have made much of the need to provide you with a strong defense of traditional Christian convictions, regularly quoting the Apostle Peter’s mandate that we present to people like you a reasoned account of the hope that lies with in us—but we have not been careful to follow the same Apostle’s counsel that immediately follows that mandate, when he tells us that we must always make our case with “gentleness and reverence” toward those with whom we are speaking. Indeed, we have even on occasion demonized you, weaving conspiracy theories about what the LDS community is “really” trying to accomplish in the world. And even at our best, we have—and this is true of both of our communities—we have talked past each other, setting forth oversimplified and distorted accounts of what the other group believes. I have formed some wonderful friendships with Mormons in the past few years. These friends have helped me to see the ways in which I have often misinterpreted Mormon thought. To be sure, as a result of those conversations I also remained convinced that there are very real issues of disagreement between us—and that some of these issues are matters of eternal signficiance. But we can now discuss these topics as friends And tonight many more of our friends have come together in this place for a very public and large-scale “Evening of Friendship.” God be praised! In just a month and a half we will greet the year 2005, which marks the 200th anniversary of the birth of Joseph Smith. During this year there will be many occasions to pay special attention to Joseph’s life and teachings, and I hope many in the evangelical community will take part in those events. But this evening we are not here to talk about Joseph Smith, but about the One whose birth we will celebrate again just before the bicentennial year of Joseph’s birth makes its appearance. This is the One about whose birth we sing—in words, I should add, that many of us love to hear sung by that great choir that sings these words in this Tabernacle—“the hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.” What a wonderful thing it is that we can meet together to talk about the Lord Jesus and about who he is and what he has done on our behalf. There is much here to talk about. I personally take great encouragement from words that Joseph Smith uttered on the occasion of the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in April of 1830: “we know,” Joseph said, “that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.” And then he added: “And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, and we know also that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.” I greet you this evening in that spirit—as one who wants more than anything else to love and serve God with all my might, mind and strength, in the power made available by the amazing grace that sent the Lord Jesus to Bethlehem’s manger, and to the Garden of Gethsemane, and to the Cross of Calvary, where he shed his blood to pay the debt of our sin—a debt that we could never pay on our own. This is the spirit in which Ravi Zacharias is going to speak to us this evening—the spirit of devotion to the One whose name is above every name, the One who alone is mighty to save, and before whom someday every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that he is Lord to the glory of the Father. May this wonderful “Evening of Friendship” point us all to that great day. Thank you and God bless you. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joe, we would all love to be friends,and as I say,I have many friends as well & family members who are mormon . i have a very deep love for them. The Questions in the diffrence on doctrine will always be their. This board is for Questioning the diffrence in the doctrine,sometimes it does become heated , sometimes there is laughter,Many emotions etc. I sure in the setting these men were in in this article, was not a debate at the time. Granted their have been false statement made,but as well their have been true statements made. He says in the article: their have been many closed door disscussions, and each group has argued strenously. Although they did not argue on this evening, it is stated that they did such. I wish not to attack you personally , as i have said before, but their are biblical diffrences and mormon doctrine that we do not agree on . So in debating these issues, we will sometimes go to extremes. People investigating most know the diffrence. Although we Glory in the Name of Jesus, Jesus has a Diffrent meaning for us. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 455 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld. Of course I understand what you are saying. However, I do not know why anyone would think it acceptable that "their have been false statement made", I'm talking in general. If it is so clear to all posting here that the LDS faith is so wrong, then why are they not simply stating those doctrinal points and making them clear to others, then allowing the spirit to guide them to the truth. Is their faith in God's power so shallow as to feel that lies need to be told? There has, sadly been very few mentions of the differences to which you refer, and then discussion to allow each side the opportunity to actually see what those differences are. Instead there is lots of 3rd or 4th hand or worse rubbishing of the Church, which of course leads nowhere. I honestly believe that WHAT Christ means to you and me is the same, and the effect of what He did will be the same for you and me. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 408 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Joesdad, I agree with Steelsword. That speaker was trying to find common ground. He didn’t say that his theology was wrong and that Mormon theology is right. We have made much of the need to provide you with a strong defense of traditional Christian convictions, regularly quoting the Apostle Peter’s mandate that we present to people like you a reasoned account of the hope that lies with in us—but we have not been careful to follow the same Apostle’s counsel that immediately follows that mandate, when he tells us that we must always make our case with “gentleness and reverence” toward those with whom we are speaking. Indeed, we have even on occasion demonized you, weaving conspiracy theories about what the LDS community is “really” trying to accomplish in the world. And even at our best, we have—and this is true of both of our communities—we have talked past each other, setting forth oversimplified and distorted accounts of what the other group believes. Right here, he says that they must continue to present Mormon’s with Peter’s mandate. However, he states that the methodology of HOW it has been done needs to be changed. Instead of demonizing and conspiracy theories, he wants to use gentleness and reverence. He used kinder words, but I didn’t get any sense that he wants to cease attempts to prove Mormons wrong. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.221.108 |
Hi, Just a few quick comments: 1. I agree with Yaakov and Steelsword in their general interpretation of the article. 2. There is nothing wrong in believing that one's faith is correct, even if that means that others faith is wrong. For Mormonism to be true; historical Christianity has to be apostate. This statement is logically consistent. 3. What troubles me is the members of one group interpreats the beliefs of another group by their owh formulas. For example, a Mormons sees that the Council of Carthage ruled on the canon, therefore, the Council of Carthage forced a corrupted Bible on the entire church. Why this troubles me is that history does not bear this out and Catholic teaching on this council is that it was solely a local council with only local authority. Another example, which I will not argue here ,concerns the Catholic view of Mary. I have no problems with Evangelicals who say that the Catholic view of Mary is unbiblical. I understand that statement, I used to believe that statement was true. What I have a problem with is the Evangelical claim that Catholics believe Mary did not need Jesus as a savior, because this statement is a clear contradiction to Catholic teaching. 4. In our discussions, we tend to interpreat the others comments via our own beliefs and come out with wild and incorrect conclusion. Peace, EGk | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Egk , are you saying there are none out there who beleive Mary is co- redemptive? I truly beleive Mary did need a savior and Mary was not sinless. I hope you address the catholics who think such. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.221.108 |
Steelword, Just for clarification, once God's sanctification is completed in each of us, we will be perfect and sinless before God. We will still be utterly dependent upon God's grace given through Jesus alone. By a special grace given through Jesus, God completely sanctified Mary at the moment of her conception. As a result, she was both saved by Jesus (as all the saved are) and she was sinless (as we all will be if we perserver in His grace.) The term "co-redemptrix" is a Latin term meaning "with the redeemer." It means that Mary had a part to play "with the redeemer" as he redeemed the world. Mary played a similar part in redemption, as Eve played in the fall. Eve disobeyed God and opened the way for Adam to fall. We all fell through Adam. Mary obeyed God, gave birth to Jesus and just opened the way for him to redeem the world. I personally do not like the term "co-redemptrix" because of the confusion it can cause. Vatican Council II expressed the same concern for the term. EGK | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 456 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
ALL: I agree with your interpretations of the article too - apologies if my wording has made it seem otherwise - lets talk, not create false images or misconceptions of each other - then we aill be in a better position to properly understand both the differences AND similarities in what we believe. egk: Re you point 4 - you are right of course, and the honest discussion and comparison will hopefully allow us to see others views in the way they themselves see them. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Another take on Joesdads article. http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/richard-mouw.html http://irr.org/mit/authentic-dialogue.html (Message edited by steelsword on June 23, 2005) |
