| Author | Message | ||
     cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Financial exploitation of members, their families, and the public at large becomes a form of religious racketeering in which the cult refuses to be held accountable to the public from which it raises funds. It has been my experience that most cults-including Mormonism, The Way, and Scientology-place a huge emphasis on giving money. In Mormonism, for example, a person must pay to go to Mormon heaven. If a member does not tithe (give 10 percent of his or her income), then he or she cannot participate in the Mormon Temple Ceremony. If a Mormon does not participate in the Temple Ceremony (sealing himself or herself to a Mormon spouse), he or she cannot go to Mormon heaven. Thus, no pay, no heaven. Secret ceremonies, also known as Temple Work, are performed in the Mormon Temple. The most important ceremonies are Baptism for the Dead and Temple Marriage. One must be a "worthy Mormon" to be allowed to participate. As two experts on Mormonism state, "Mormon leaders teach that the spirits of people who have died cannot enter the kingdom of heaven until a Mormon is baptized for them by proxy." Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1987), p. 451. The Temple Marriage is explained as follows: The Mormon Church teaches that it is necessary for a person to be married or sealed in the Temple so that he can obtain the highest exaltation in the hereafter. This work is done for both the living and the dead. The doctrine of Temple Marriage comes from Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This is a revelation given to Joseph Smith on July 12, 1843. Ibid., p. 455. Quoting the Doctrine and Covenants directly: And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be; it shall be said unto them-Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths…Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verses 19-20. We have said pay your Tithing, And we have said to the Bishops that if any man refuses to pay his Tithing, try him for his fellowship; and if he still refuses, cut him off from the Church… Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, pp. 283 and 285. Also, a Latter-day Saints teachers' manual states: Those seeking recommends should be faithfully attending sacrament meetings, priesthood meetings, and other Church meetings. They should be conscientiously carrying out their callings given through priesthood authority. They should be striving to keep all of the Lord's commandments, including paying a full tithe… Endowed from on High: Temple Preparation Seminar Teacher's Manual (Salt Lake City,Utah: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1995), p. 9. Once again, this is something that Christians do not believe in, nor is it Biblical. One can not pay ones way to heaven. The only way to heaven is knowing the true Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, and accepting Him into your heart by His grace. Then one can be saved (Romans 10:9-10). There is no paying of a tithe, or getting married in some cultist Temple Ceremony (that is neither historically a Jewish Temple Ceremony, nor a Christian Ceremony) that can get you to heaven. The Bible does not tell us we must be married or pay a tithe to be saved. This is nothing but man-made, anti-Christian Mormon dogma, and nothing else. And be aware -- if you are not Mormon, and your son or daughter should decide to marry a Mormon, and they get married in the Mormon Temple Ceremony -- you will not be able to attend the wedding! YES -- this is 100% true. Only "worthy" Mormons can go into a Mormon Temple after the initial "opening" of one. After a Temple is built, a certain part is open to the public for a short time and after that, no one may set foot inside a Mormon Temple unless they are a "worthy" Mormon. So that would include the parents of whoever is getting married if they are Christian or Jew or otherwise. For more information regarding this occult ceremony based in masonry, with touches of witchcraft and satainism -- go to: http://www.luciferlink.org/mcerem.htm If your search is for Jesus Christ, the God of all heaven and earth, you can not find Him in Mormonism. Seek Him in His Word, the Bible, seek Him via a mainstream Christian Church -- Mormonism is a Christian cult, it is not a Christian organization. Mormonism warps the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Seek Him while you can -- but not through Mormonism! In Christ alone I place my trust... (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 407 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Hey people, don't worry about lucifer link - look on CJV own website she proudly advertises (how much does she earn for each visit to ther site I wonder?) the award she won links to a result page full of links to the stuff she really wants you to see - Magic, the Occult, Charms, UFO's - just like the Tanners it appears our dearly beloved CJV is in it for the money - strange why she should start this thread then hey? Oh dear, I visited your site again, a few more dollars in your account? Epitome of Hypocrisy should be your next book glorifying yourself. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.46 |
Odd, I have been to Carol's site before and never noticed lucifer link...She speaks as a christian who was the member of a cult, and is now sharing her experiences with others. She does advertise her book, which there is nothing wrong with. It is her site. I see lots of church sites that advertise the sale of books, underwear, geneology info for sale, etc. So I looked at the award she won, which took me to 'spiritual links' including witchcraft, occult, mormomism, magic, etc. The link looks to me like a place to read about a lot of cults and pagan religions. Carol won an award for speaking out about cults. What is the problem with that? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 265 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.46 |
I'm afraid all joesdad has done is draw attention to another link that names mormonism on a list along with witchcraft, occult, etc. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 408 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
gc: tALK ABOUT THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND - YOU ARE NOT EVEN WILLING TO LOOK, OR CONDEMN HER FOR HER USING YOU IN HER PRETENCE AT BEING A CHRISTIAN. SHE WON AN AWARD - FOR WHAT? - THE BEST BACKHANDER? HOW CAN YOU ACCEPT THAT SHE PEDDLES ANTI CHRISTIAN STUFF, AND FEEL THAT YOUR INTEGRITY AS A CHRISITAN CAN BE KEPT IN PLACE - WAKE UP, SHE HAS FOOLED YOU!!!!! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 268 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
joesdad, you have once again displayed your rush to condemn all antimormons. My point is I don't care one way or other whether Carol wins an award. That's her business. You suggest she is antichristian because she accepts an award that is given to people who expose cults/occult. Where is the logic in that? No one can use me. I do not agree with everything christians state. I am posting here to discuss cults. Only when there are theological differences will I speak out to christians, not as an attack, but because we are trying to help each other. When Paul went to the churches, they were already established as Christian. He still spoke to them about doctrine they were confused about or when they wanted to continue rituals and laws that were no longer necessary because of Christ's sacrifice. Please read the New Testament about what happened at the moment of Christ's death. The "curtain" to the temple (hiding the secretive, sacred parts within) was rent, meaning torn in two. It was no longer necessary. The way to salvation was out in the open and available for the asking. Christ said he came to fulfill the law. In other words, he did what was required by God (the offering of living sacrifice). It's complete, done, finished. He was the lamb, a perfect offering. I read an article last evening (by the lds) about the purpose of temples. You pretty much covered its purpose. But I also read an article by Hugh Nibley. A very long article where he suggests christians are against the mormon temple out of jealousy. Otherwise, why would christians be so adverse to them? He went on to say it could be nothing but jealousy as the temple is a house of international prayer, where everyone can go to pray. That's not quite true now, is it? I dont' hear an invitation from mormons to nonmormons to 'come pray at our temple of the Lord'. Do they? Do you go there to "pray"? Are you willing to issue the invitation to all to come to the mormon temple to pray? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 412 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: A massive differnece between exposing and promoting - her link promotes - that's unethical - your defence of her is in vain - the logic is lacking in you as a proclaimed Christian defending someone who is blanatntly encouranging links to Satanic and extremely questionable sites and materials - wake up! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 276 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
joesdad, get over it! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 277 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
I noticed mormons here and apologetic articles, use the words polemics and hominem a lot so I decided to look the words up. Joesdad'd response to Carol's statement above is a good example of both the words. He chooses to attack the writer of the article instead of addressing the article itself. Totally unnecessary as "the articles stand on their own". Of course, mormons can argue the point. I just hope they argue the same point when 'accepting' what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young wrote. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 278 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
I'll wait for jd to answer the question about temples for prayer. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 414 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: So you get over being decieved by her so easily do you - or is it that you do not find any of it offensive because you are not what you clain your are? Wake up love, the FIRST thing I did was question the site - have you been sleeping? The invitation is there, come one and all to the House of the Lord. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 284 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.224 |
I would never enter a place that is called a house of the Lord, when they are used to seal the likes of Mussolini, Alolf Hitler, Eva Braun (they weren't even married civilly), and Hitler's henchmen. This is not a heaven I want any part of. I thought people had to be considered worthy to be sealed. Is that not correct? (I have photocopies of these documents, so please don't start calling, 'liar, liar'.) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 418 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC:  | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 117 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
joe is making false statements once again, as appears to be his habit. He must personally attack and slander those who would expose the truth about the Mormon Church. It seems to be his only recourse. He continues to obsessively attack me personally in his desperate attempt to discredit anyone who would speak out against the Mormon Church. I've explained his total lack of judgment and complete lack of understanding regarding my web site in many other threads. I do not make any money with Obadiah Ministries despite what joe implies. I have never asked for, nor received any donations. I make no money on the book I've written, I have lost money. And the link that is an award on my web site earns me ZERO dollars. You could click on my web site and that link until the cows come home. I make nothing, nada, zippo dollars, not one thin dime. The "deal" is, I link to them, they link to me. That's it joe. Sorry to dash all of your accusations about me and my web site and my intentions to dust. This link here on the Factnet forum explains it in more detail: http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=164491#POST164491 Now I'm asking you nicely joe -- stop the slander, and stop personally attacking me and my reputation. This is beneath any adult here who uses these boards, and quite frankly, is not tolerated according to the rules of Factnet. The rules are crystal clear on this joe. You don't want to break the rules, do you? You've been doing so for quite some time now -- but you're going too far. Stop it please, I'm asking nicely. What a sad, sad figure you are joe. You are totally incapable of presenting your own argument in defense of the LDS Church therefore you resort to personal defamation. Yet, it's almost understandable, how can anyone defend the Mormon Church? It is indefensible! What a fine example you set for those trying to find out about Mormonism and who seek information here. You truly are the perfect example of a Mormon. The under belly of what is actually behind the "nicey-nice" facade really comes out here in you and other LDS who post here. I feel sorry for you. I feel more sorry for you because you are so, so deceived by the teachings of such an evil organization as the LDS Church. That is even more tragic. God bless you joe, may the scales be removed from your eyes and I pray it will be soon. The Jesus of Mormonism leads to nothingness -- that Jesus is a false god and can never save you. I pray you'll realize this very, very soon. May the Holy Spirit turn your hardened heart into a desire to know the true Living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 293 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.24 |
Joesdad, I hope you will answer the question "Did you ever attend other churches before joining the LDS?" My question is not to mock you in any way. Let me explain my concerns for many mormons: When someone is 'weaned' on false doctrines, and especially when they are told NOT to investigate others, the chance of them seeing true doctrines is more limited. I speak about my mother and my relationship with her a lot. Mom, to my knowledge, didn't attend any church regularly as a child. When she had children, though she allowed others to take us to church, she seldom went herself. As children, we were not spoken to about Christ's love for us, nor were we read to from the Bible. (Mom didn't have a 'foundation'.) Thankfully, I did because I loved what I learned in churches, the words, the music, the loving atmosphere I didn't feel at home. I am not accusing or blaming my mother, she was an unhappy woman who didn't know how to love. She was a very strict disciplinarian and we were raised to fear her. She had learned that from her father, who was evil in that he not only physically abused his children, he sexually abused his children and grandchilren. There, again, Mom didn't have a foundation. She lived what she had learned. A beautiful seed was planted in me at an early age in church. It was left dormant for many years. When my mother began investigating the mormon church, she was already familiar with masonic rituals (grandpa and grandma were members) so she was comfortable with it. She was a very hard worker and a very hard taskmaster to us, so the mormon beliefs came naturally to her. She was looking for a church, not God, and the mormon church gives the outward appearance of every families dream. She did not know how to use the classes, such as 'gaynotes' for us children, in a loving way; therefore it bacame another in a long list of work for us. She followed all the 'mormon rules' and loves it to this day. She, as shown on her emails to me (which phone calls are very similar to) does not have a 'personal' relationship with the Lord. Thank God, eventually I realized the mormon church was an empty place filled with lots of rules and lots of classes to keep us busy, no real evidence of love. Oh yes, mormons helped each other, but it was to get 'credit' towards their individual exaltation, not out of any real sense of love for another person. The seed that had lied dormant for so many years, broke out and began to grow, leaning ever so slightly towards the 'Light'. Mom, whatever little seed she had, has never been allowed to grow, it has been kept stunted by her following the 'mormon rules' of only listening to the prophets words, which include reading and viewing only mormon material, created not by God, but by men. I have, in a small way, tried to minister to my mother. I tape recorded old gospel songs (in my own voice, to make it personal) we used to sing when we came home from christian sunday school; in the hopes that she will hear that 'still, small voice' which is the Holy Spirit, through the words. The most important thing for my mother in her children's lives is our successes, not as loving human beings that live for the Lord, but successful, wealthy people in the world. I am grateful that my mother is appreciative (and tells me so) of the love I show her. And I most definitely appreciate her love (learned through our example, not her church), for me. As a side-note, do you have a relationship with your parents? So I understand the difficulties of leaving and dealing with the mormon church. I read a quote the other day which I hope is appropriate here: You do not need to defend a lion, you only need to uncage him. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
joesdad, I just wanted you to know -- I do not delude myself into believing you've just been waiting for this reply -- But I've changed the link on my web page, placed the icon at the bottom and now it reflects what I thought the link reflected in the first place. You didn't go about informing me in a kind way -- but I did get your point through your...shall we say -- excitable postings. You should have just come to me in the first place instead of taking a personal issue and using it to attack me here in this forum. When you're civil, I listen to you. Regardless, that's all water under the bridge, and now I believe I've fixed the problems. The link now reflects other sites like mine. I also changed the link you complained about at the top of the page and now "for" is a part of the link. Not expecting flowers, and I'm quite certain this won't make us friends but I just wanted you to know that on certain things, I do take into account what you say and actually, I thank you for pointing the problems out. But you were way, way, WAY wrong about my making any money through my web site. I got a real hoot out of that one! LOL! My husband WISHES I would make money with that web site instead of COSTING us money! LOL!! Never have and probably never will (The initial 155 books I sold were never sold through the web site). I'm not allowed to through the server I'm on anyway (non-profits may accept money to cover only their costs -- but I haven't even done that!). If you had just asked, I could have told you that as well! joe -- my offer still stands - I'll send you a copy of my book, free, shipping is on me too. There is nothing anti-Mormon in it except for an addendum in which I define cults. Otherwise -- there is nothing that would be offensive to you in the main story at all. I'll send it to a post box -- maybe if you read it, you'd know why I do what I do. You'd have a peek inside of why I take all the time and money it costs me - because people like you matter. It's worth everything to know that I've been used in any capacity to help even in a small way -- when people are victimized by cults. But I won't hold my breath on that one either. Offer still stands though! Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. And that is just one reason why Christians don't baptize for the dead by proxy. It's all about the heart, and the person has to turn their heart over to Jesus themself, no one can do it for them. (Message edited by cjv on June 11, 2005) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 450 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Nope never went to church properly before. On the whole, throughout my life the reactions I have from those crediting themselves as being Christian when speaking of my beliefs make me glad I do not share their usually bigoted and condemning attitude. You pretend that walking away from the Church would be difficult, it is not and I have seen many do it. My question is always why those such as you are Soooooooo desperate as to lie, and bear false witness against me? |
