| Author | Message | ||
     cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Mormonism attempts to call itself Christian and due to countless millions or possibly billions of dollars spent on public relations -- has managed to almost mainstream itself into American culture. I say almost because Christians know what Mormons practice couldn't possibly be Christian. The secular world may view Mormonism as Christian -- but Christians view this organization as a wolf in sheep's clothing and not at all Christian. There are many reasons for this -- one large and looming problem with LDS teachings is the fact that LDS do not believe in the same God Christians do. There is only one God that Christians worship -- Christianity is monotheistic. Mormonism is polytheistic -- they teach about many, many gods even believing that they can become gods themselves if they are good Mormons. Historical, Orthodox Christianity has always been monotheistic and always will be. Another glaring reason is that LDS baptize for the dead by "proxy". They have occult ceremonies in LDS Temples and "stand in" so to speak -- for someone dead that they've chosen so that the dead person can go to Mormon heaven or become saved. This all based on something totally fabricated by Mormonism because Christians do not baptize for the dead. The Bible tells us why Christians get baptized, but it is never the means or the way of salvation. This is something that no one can do for anyone else. An acceptance IN THE HEART of Jesus Christ must take place before that person will receive the Holy Spirit or can be saved. Reading the scriptures, both how one can be saved AND why Christians get baptized are discussed when a Eunuch asks to be baptized: Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. This can not be done for someone, by someone or standing in for someone. This must be done by the person themself. There is no baptism by proxy that can do anything for anyone if they don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ in their HEART as also Romans 10:9-10 tells us as well: Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. It's really very, very clear. There is no salvation without a HEARTFELT FAITH. There is no baptism that can save anyone, no less someone who is dead because they are dead. They aren't doing much with their heart, or anything else for that matter. If one could save someone else or get saved just by baptism, than that would be WORKS that would gain us salvation. The Bible explicitly says that it is not by works that we are saved, it is by GRACE. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Therefore, Christians never have and of course, never will baptize for the dead by proxy or otherwise as it is useless and nothing but a made-up ritual Mormonism devised that has absolutely zero Biblical basis. The Historical Orthodox Christian Church never practiced it and won't be practicing it any time soon, of that one can be certain. It is through the Bible that we know what we need to know as Christians. It is God's Word, it is the only truth we need and it is through the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ that one can be saved. Not, unfortunately, through Mormonism. May the scales be removed from the eyes of those who believe in the teachings of the Mormon Church, we pray this in the name of Jesus Christ, our only Lord our only Savior, Amen. In Christ alone I place my trust... 2 Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. note: this was accidental posted in another thread but I am posting it here where it was originally intended. (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 173 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
CJV you bring up some very good points in your post. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this very subject. Is the Mormon faith Christian? That one to me is easier than asking are Mormons Christian. I would feel that most mormons that were not born into their faith were of a christian faith or considered their upbringing christian if they were not religious in practice. I then feel that I consider them to be christians who are practicing a doctrine that is not inline with mainstream christianity. I would really like to ask mormons the following. Do mormons consider mainstream orthodox christianity acceptable in God's sight? If not then how can their faith be deemed christian. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 388 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: Personally, the answer is necessarily vague to a point, as I can't speak for God. But I am certain that God does not have the same dismissive attitude towards "mainstream orthodox christianity" whatever that is (talk about defining out of existence!)as you (appear) to have towards LDS. As I am sure you know, we believe that our time here on the earth is but a small fragment of our entire existence, but an essential one, as it is here that we are tried and tested, given the opportunity to choose right from wrong, but most of all to keep our second estate - to choose to follow Christ, accept him as our Saviour and Redeemer and then follow this until the end of our mortal life - endure to the end. We believe in a just, kind and loving Heavenly Father that will look upon the heart of Men when judging us, who we have become. The reason we have the Temple is because our loving Heavenly Father recognises that not all will have had the opportunity to accept Christ in this way during their mortal life. I feel that we, LDS are in fact more accepting of those that can, may and will re-enter into the presence of God, than those of Christendom who attempt to restrict in any way possible the numbers. Almost hoping, it would seem that if they can exclude enough, then God will have to accept them due to lack of numbers. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 389 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: Of course, what if your brand of christianity is not acceptable to God? - what I think cannot determine His view, you can't blame me for that!  | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 110 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Yes nulla, this is always the bottom line -- is Mormonism Christian? The answer is -- it can't be. There are many reasons, the main one of course -- Mormonism does not teach about the Judeo/Christian Biblical God which would be ONE God. Mormons believe in endless amounts of gods. I can not tell the personal salvation "status" of anyone, be they in the Mormon Church or not -- but I can tell you if a person only knows the Jesus of Mormonism, if they take their last breath only knowing the Mormon Jesus, then they never knew Jesus. And that's why I come here, to warn those who seek Jesus -- He can't be found in Mormonism. (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 406 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Hey, CJV, just had another brief look at your fun "Ministry" site - sorry for my comment about looking for the book advert on another thread, of course it is already there! along with several other ads. Something I found extremely contradictory to your egotistically claim to be able to determine who is Christian is, before you say anything on your site you proudly show your award "Spirit and Sky Top Spiritual Site 2005". Everyone should click on this, it takes you to a search result page with links to such wholesome sites as ones on , Magic, Charms, Occult, Ghosts, UFO's, Reincarnation to name just a few - corr and she has the arrogance to question MY Christianity! Evil begets evil my dear, and I can get to it straight from your proudly waved banner of a website - hypocrisy is not a virtue CJV, yet you wear it like a crown!!! You claim Jesus can't be found in Mormonism - well if your website of deceit is your guide, I bet you would not know him if he stood and shouted His name in your ear. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 266 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.46 |
joesdad, if you were honest you would have mentioned this site also lists churches such as mormonism. It is obvious this is a listing for sites that expose cults and pagan religions. I've been to Carol's site and had never clicked on her 'award' link. Her site is written by a christian woman who was once the member of a cult and now also tries to expose other cults. If she can sell her book or if she gets paid when someone looks at her site, what is wrong with that? It looks like an honest way to make a living if that is her reason for doing it, which I doubt. Either way, I see lots of stuff for sale on lots of very good, and very bad sites. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 409 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Did Satan not beguile Eve by given some truths to ensnare her with the lie - cjv knows she is peddaling satanism from her site and making money from it - and you defend her right to do so - fine upstanding Chrisitians one and all - and you have the nerve to PRETEND Mormonism does what you accept she does!! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 269 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
I don't understand your problem with Carol. She is not a church and doesn't claim to represent a church. Your 'church' on the other hand, makes representations that are expected for its members to follow; by buying THEIR books, by purchasing THEIR underwear, THEIR geneology documents, by purchasing insurance from THEIR companies, by staying at THEIR hotels and living in THEIR apartment buildings, by shopping at THEIR malls, etc. Isn't the christian church supposed to be a place of worship, or is it okay to be a place of business? I suggest to you this is exactly what the mormon church condones and practices. The site YOU recommended had the article by the ANONYMOUS MORMON historian suggesting Jesus was a lawbreaker by turning over the table in the temple and healing on the Sabbath day. Christians know why Jesus turned over the table of the 'moneychangers' in the temple. The temple is not a place of business, that's why! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 270 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
NOTICE TO ALL MORMONS AND OTHER CULTS! GOD IS NOT, I REPEAT, NOT FOR SALE!!!! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 271 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
And you can come off that self-righteous crap about Eve being ensnared by satan. Mormons teach, as you full know, that Eve's eating and giving the fruit was a 'preplanned and accepted' part of the 'big plan' of the spirits in heaven. Mormons teach that any evil spoken of was an approved, preplanned thing by the 'council of spirits in heaven' by good spirits like you who were especially blessed to be a mormon, and those who where 'born into the church' were even more-so because they were the better 'spirits' before coming to earth. To a Christian, evil acts were documented as a warning, not as a reminder that "OH yeah, this is just another part of the plan we made before we got our bodies". Mormon beliefs are satanic, of satan. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
When I was a member of the lds, we were taught that poor Judas suffered more than the other apostles because he accepted the 'plan' and was willing to detray Christ to 'follow the plan'. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 413 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: You are turly beguiled GC, wkae up to the fact that she is devious and deceitful. At least I tell you to your face what I think of you, she is ensnaring you by pretending to represent what you do! Condemn me? - then you must condemn her or be a hypocrite. How is Eve's fall self-righteous crap - is that your view of her? OOH really stings I bet knowing your "friend" has decieved you so well! FYI I have mentioned this to Factnet - other cases of blatant advertising have been removed from these threads - cjv should be too. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 279 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
 Do you feel better now? Now Joesdad is the protector christians. Wonderful! And yes, writing on a website with a fictional name is 'really telling me to my face, isn't it?' Don't do me any favors, okay! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 280 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
What I think of Eve is that she was the first person to be tempted by satan whereupon we need Christ in our lives. Eve was forgiven,(Not rewarded for committing a sin). Enuf said! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 281 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
Oh, mormon beliefs about Eve reminded me of another question I have? Since Emma Smith and other women were given the 'priesthood', why was it stopped and now never mentioned? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 282 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
I wonder how sp would/did respond when he found out about that. I'm sure all long-time mormons have heard of this. Imagine, a measly woman given authority over a black mormon man. Wow! That must have been hard to swallow. Is the thought hard for all mormon men, I wonder? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 283 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.136 |
I can hear the 'ERRRRRs' all the way across the country.  | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 415 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: No, I feel gutted, beacuse I thought maybe that cjv was mislead in her ideas - rather than just being out to intentionally mislead - and upset that people like her who are the ones that intenally deceive the likes of you, is still allowed to do it by people like you - almost like you don't care who she really represents as long as she bashes Mormons in the process. Please, a link to allow a read of the detials of these women holding the priesthood would be helpful, not just to me but others also. (hoping it is not in the same location of that other web site I await from you!) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.224 |
Your church keeps records of everything (of which copies always escape) until they are confronted by members who want truthful answers. The info is out there, you just have to find it. You don't need my help. You have access more easily than I do. I guess the keepers of the vaults aren't trustworthy members, or original documents weren't considered so sacred that they weren't sent to members of the time. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 423 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Are you admitting that you have no proof AT ALL of this latest claim of yours, and that in fact the reality of it can be found no where but in the recesses of your mind? | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.178.226.162 |
Well, reading the thread half way down it is apparent that what started out as a discussion as to whether Mormonism is or is not Christian and, as the discussion was leaning toward the "it is not Christian" stance the tone suddenly switched to one of ridicule and cut down of the "no it's nots" by the apparent pro-Mormon adherents. Poor form, ol' boy, very poor form, indeed. (Message edited by curious1 on June 10, 2005) | ||
| curious1 (curious1) Intermediate Member Username: curious1 Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.178.226.162 |
It is most shameful when the followers of a womanizing murderer place he and his fictional novel above God and the Gospel of His Son, Jesus Christ. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 424 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
curious1: Not sure what you mean old chap. No ridicule or cut down, just pointing out that our good ol' Christian cjv is not all she seemed to be and I see that Factnet agree as they have now pulled all references to her website in response (it seems)to my pointing out to them what she was doing - so where does the poor form lie (cool play on words that last one!). I simply commented that there is a lot of bad stuff going on out there in the name of Christianity, and those who slam Mormonism saying that it is the root of this, need to look much closer to home and especially at those who they rely on as being authoritative in the subject. I see frequently that some will claim to trust only in Christ, yet believe any false statement fed to them from one of these "authorities", assuming them correct and reputable. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 289 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.46 |
Practices and actions of the mormon church do not jump out of the recesses of my mind. I recall saying I have a photocopy. (Now, don't start calling me a liar again.) Mormonism is like a large maze, you just have to go in the right direction to find the truth. Joesdad, you would not believe it if you saw it, so what's the point. I am not trying to prove anything to you, but others. Why do these things surprise you. Temple ordinances can be done in a person's home as long as one with the authority is there. In fact, a wife can confer blessings on her husband, and lays her hands upon him, can she not. How could that be without her holding the priesthood? Ask your bishop. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 427 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC  K scan it, and post it | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 290 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.46 |
Not with that kind of attitude, jd. You must ask politely. But first, answer whether what I stated in my last paragraph is true, or will you deny it? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 428 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Ohhh please, pretty please, pretty please with cherries on top - Naaaah - forget it, I reckon if there was mcuh truth in this tidbit of sensationalism one of your buddies would have jumped on it - but I can't even find the Tanners saying that one - so I'll pretend you are the only one who knows - feel special? My wife gave my little girl a blessing earlier this week, but that does not negate the priesthood. More straw grasping GC. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 292 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.226 |
Wrong Answer! Here are some of my sources of reference: University of Utah, Marriott Library, Special Collection, Salt Lake, Ut ----------------------- Utah St. HIstorical Soc. Library, Salt Lake -------------- Church of lds Salt Lake --------------- BYU Iniversity Library, Special Coll. Provo, Utah ----------- Utah State University Library, Special Coll. Provo, Utah ---------------- Henry Huntington Library San Marino, CA ------------ Stanford Univ. Lib. Stanford, CA ------------- Yale Univ. New Haven, Connecticut ------------ U Of C Bancroft Lib., Berkeley, CA -------------- U.S. Library of Congress Wash, DC ------------- Illinois St. Historical Soc. Springfield, Ill. ----------- Graceland College, Lemoni, Iowa Chicago Hist. Libr. Springfield, Ilinois ------------- Harvard Univ. Cambridge, Mass. --------- Missouri State Hist. Soc. Columbia, Mo ----------- Reorganized LDS Independance, Mo --------------- Princeton Univ. Princeton, New Jersey (Since you were partially nice. Practice, practice, practice!!) | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Just to clarify -- joe -- once again, most of what you say is patently false. You bear false witness against me personally which "surprises" me as I thought even Mormons are taught not to do this. With regard to the "award" at the top of the opening page of my web site: It does look pretty bad at the top, I admit -- but I know you won't believe this explanation joe, so I'm not explaining this for you. In Front Page, I cut and pasted the code NEAR THE BOTTOM of the page. I don't know html language much at all -- but even when I look at the html view, the coding is NEAR THE BOTTOM. I have no idea how it goes to the top once it appears on the web site -- but if anyone has any pointers, I'd be glad to take them so that I can put the award where I intended it to go. I fiddled with it for so long, I finally just gave up and left it at the top. And also with regard to this award -- when I received the e-mail telling me the web site was chosen, I clicked on the link provided in the e-mail that has my web site on their web site as a link. It did not appear as the same link that is the award button itself. This was actually the link provided: http://www.spiritandsky.com/religion/christianity/apologetics/counter-cult/index.html Interestingly, once I put the award link on my web site, I never clicked on it. But where my web site is listed -- as in the link above, I have no problem with the "company I keep" as Factnet is also one of the sites listed there. Secondly -- with regards to your false charges about my web site and money that I supposedly make: I GIVE AWAY books including absorbing the cost of shipping myself. But even if I sold them, there is nothing sinful nor exploitive about selling them. I did sell about 155 copies (and lost money), but decided -- as of June 2004 through today -- to give away copies of the book free of any charges. In fact, I just sent 35 copies of my book to a Pakistan missionary, for free and paid the expensive shipping myself. Thirdly -- I lose money with my ministry, I've never made a dime off of it, because I also offer to send, again, free of charge -- a Life Application Bible to anyone who has left a cult and contacts me and who might not have the means to buy one for themself. This Bible was most helpful to me when I left the cult The Way International. I offer this as the Lord places it on my heart, not just to anyone who writes to me. And no one has ever asked me to send them one, it's just as the Lord leads me. But when I do send one, it is without any cost to the receiver. I do not accept donations in my ministry, and never have. And until the next tax year, I've never even written off the losses on taxes. This coming tax year (April 2006), since the losses are a bit substantial -- we're going to take advantage of the tax write-off. But thank you joesdad for allowing me the opportunity to set the record straight. In Christ alone I place my trust... | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Oh, and once again Joe -- you are wrong and provide false witness. When I was using the link to my web site in my sig in my postings -- it is considered "spamming" -- that is why references to the web site were pulled according to the Factnet admin. They gave me a warning, and I will abide by their warning. That is the reason they gave in their e-mail to me. Not the one you wish was the reason -- that there was some sort of terrible content on my web site. Why do you say such foolish things when you can be found out and exposed? You THOUGHT you knew the reason they pulled my web site references -- you wanted it to be so by your vindictive action of "turning me in." You shouldn't come here on a public forum and state the things you do because you get proven wrong over and over again. Doesn't this embarass you joe? To be wrong and proven wrong, so often? What seems to be a compulsion to misrepresent the facts is truly getting the better of you joe. I had no idea that putting the url to my web site in my sig was spamming. I was told it was, so I will not do it again. This is very typical of how you approach your own church Joe and it is how you approach the Bible. You falsely make claims about things you don't reallly even know about and you're wrong over and over and over again. Bless your misguided heart. And I forgive you for turning me in joe. But I would advise you to remember -- you tread on thin ice. If I were spiteful like you, I could have you banned the moment Factnet admin. would get my e-mail becuase I could show them your postings with your personal attacks and flaming. Now that is very clear in their rules, you can't do what you do constantly here. But rest easy, I won't do that. I'm not like you, bitter, vindictive and angry. I have the peace that surpasseth all understanding -- as any true Christian has. It's available to you joe -- all you have to do is confess your sins and denounce the evil teachings of Mormonism. I pray that someday soon you will turn your heart from deception as it appears to bleed into every aspect of your life. I pray that you will turn your heart over to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do it soon joe -- our redemption draweth nigh! Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. KJV | ||
| cjv (cjv) Intermediate Member Username: cjv Post Number: 116 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Curious1: It is most shameful when the followers of a womanizing murderer place he and his fictional novel above God and the Gospel of His Son, Jesus Christ. Well said, but if I might add: false prophet and peep stone con artist --  In Christ alone... Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. KJV | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 449 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Come on - I take it you still have no evidence visible to the human eye - but nice list by the way. Cjv: False witness - nope, just saying what I saw - so now maybe you have an insight into how the truth gets misinterpreted by you anti-sites. If it is so easy for your site to be seen to represent something that (you say) it does not - then how easy can the words of someone who is not avaiable to defend them (as you are) be misinterpreted or misrepresented. Thanks for the corrective detail - I do find your commitment impressive. You clearly misunderstand my motives totally - I am sick and tired at the rubbish produced about what I am supposed to believe - when those producing it don't give a monkey's as to whether I do or whether it is true - you make statements about my beliefs that are untrue, and despite this claim you are innocent. You are not. There is as much spite in what I say, as in you when you stand by the lies you reproduce about my beliefs and Church, the difference is that I do not lie about what I believe - and you don't care if you are right of wrong as long as it makes your point for you. Again I say, and with conviction that you DO NOT rely on Christ alone - but more upon the falsehoods you accept as truths. When was the last time you actually asked a Mormon what they believe? - or even just asked me - with the intention to learn, rather than to spout more pretend LDS doctrine? Wake up, you are being fooled by the experts. | ||
| elysium (elysium) New member Username: elysium Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.23.3.71 |
Has no one else noticed that it is the same arguments going round and round here? Besides, lets actually address the POINT of this thread Joesdad, you wrote... "When was the last time you actually asked a Mormon what they believe? - or even just asked me - with the intention to learn, rather than to spout more pretend LDS doctrine?" Let me start from the very top; In Joseph Smith's first vision, he claims that God said that all the claims of existing Christian churches were an "abomination in His sight." (Joseph Smith-History 1:19) Verse 19 notes that Smith claimed that God said all Christian sects were "wrong," an "abomination," and that the "professors were all corrupt." Lets look at the implications, shall we? We have a man, who claims to have seen God, and have God tell him that as of now, all Christians in the world have, to put it softly, missed the point. The very foundations of the LDS church (for, it is easily argued that this is the true beginning of it) are therefore shown to be antagonistic (to say the least) with existing, orthodox Christianity. Smith goes on to claim a restoration of Christianity, to the point where it is a direct continuation of the state of things before the Great Apostasy (an LDS idea)...Smith makes a direct claim to a remarkable authority, and the current incarnation of the church uses that claim to assert superiority over the current incarnation of orthodox Christianity... The way i see it, Orthodox Christianity makes a number of fundamental claims (and yes, while her sects do differ on certain points, the fundamentals are the same...hence the term 'orthodox'); a sect will either endorse, or deny those claims, and their response, be it for or against, will either put them in, or out, of the orthodox camp. I think, and certainly hope, that all those present will accept the statement that the LDS fundamental doctrines, contradicts in too many places, the orthodox fundamental docrines...as especially noted in Smith's definitive denial as noted above in his own 'History'... So, this is where we are at; Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity make mutually exclusive claims (and yes, i am speaking of the CURRENT LDS beliefs, not Adam-God, not Polygamy, or anything now disavowed, but rather the current beliefs), and thus are irreconcilable. It would be inane for any Orthodox Christian to call a completely orthodox LDS member a Christian, because these fundamentals are not fundamentals for said LDS member. This is not to say that there arent those in the LDS church who actually hold orthodox beliefs, but rather that the church is not orthodox. The issue then becomes discovering who is right, but i dont see any way, with any academic or theological honesty intact, to call the LDS church, by Orthodox standards, Christians (and the same going in the reverse)... I know that this is vexing for the average LDS member, but they should remember that the church that they belong to calls the Orthodox Body "an abomination," and thus should not be confused as somehow being on the same page. Joesdad, the reason i mentioned your quote above, is that this thread degenerated into something other than its stated purpose; your quote is in reference to the new question of determining the veracity of the LDS claims, not whether or not the LDS church is a Christian organization... Hopefully, you will agree that i have not misrepresented the LDS doctrines, both of past and present, in any way; please correct me if this is false, but i think i am on solid ground here... And again, please note that 99% of the arguments presented regarding the legitimacy of the LDS church do NOT have anything to do with current beliefs! Occasionally, i have noted that someone will bring up Baptism for the dead, which is fine, but the majority of arguments are aimed at looking at previous doctrine; If we can demonstrate that even a single doctrine (of some significance, of course) stated authoritatively by an LDS prophet is false (ESPECIALLY if the modern church repudiates it), then we have successfully called into question the divine inspiriation of said prophet, and struck a serious blow to the church's necessary claim of an unbroken line of authority (and hence its use of the word 'restoration') So again, if I, or godschild, or CJV, or any other present a statement, made authoritatively by a prophet, alive or passed, that the church currently repudiates, or is simply biblically untrue, we arent doing it because its 'what the church believes," but rather because it is a valid attack on the church's claims of authority. But, you did ask us to ask you what you believe; so i wish to ask you now, in all sincerity, is there more than one God? Was our Father once a man? If He was a man, and was elevated to divine status, does that not mean that He has changed? How does this square with the idea that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever? If He was a man, and was so elevated, does that mean that He worshiped a God? If it is so, how does this square with, for a single example, Deuteronomy 6:4, or the central claims of MONOtheistic, Orthodox Christianity... Let me ask you this; If i believe in ONE God, albiet with a triune nature, and you believe in more than that (even if its only one more), can we both be right? Are these not mutually exclusive claims? If they are exclusive, then is not one right, and the other wrong? IS this not a fundamental tenant to be in error over? If it is fundamental, how can one side claim that the other is truly Christian? And let me ask you this one question, because it just dawned on me that it would be interesting to debate...will everone be saved? I recall, being instructed at Sunday School and at Institute, that aside from those who are cast into Outer Darkenss, everyone else will be saved...actually, i am rather curious, and am not sure where the church currently stands on this...i know what the Orthodox church says, but i beg you to instruct me on what the LDS church says... Since you want to debate something current, lets debate current theology...i am more than willing to leave attacks on authority well enough alone for now, and deal with current diferences in doctrine...if your so willing, lets start with the universalness of the Atonement... with much love, Elysium | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 471 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Elysium: You lost me a little there - are you saying that the last question is the one you want to consentrate discussion on? (i.e. I don't want you to think I'm unwilling ot answer all of your questions, but there are a lot of them, and I want to give them all due consideration if required). If so, as you know the term "saved" is not one commonly used by LDS, so a brief explanation of your use of the term will help me get straight to the point. Thanks | ||
| elysium (elysium) New member Username: elysium Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.23.3.71 |
Sorry about that... Take your time in answering the points i presented; ideally, yes, i would love for you to respond to each of them, but i was saying that if you wanted to call into question current LDS beliefs, as the thread implied, then, if your so willing, this was one point i think a good place to start... As for saved, you right, lol, i forgot the cardinal rule in debating, especially in theological matters...DEFINE TERMS! A quick overview then...according to Orthodox Theology Mankind, because of the fall of Adam (and then our own actions), is spiritually dead in sin. We are separate from God, and are in complete and utter rebellion against Him. We deserve Hell, and God's Justice will provide us with our just deserts... Jesus Christ, being God (not A God, or a God with the same purpose) became flesh, and took all the sins of the Elect upon Himself, suffering the punishment for them, and doing so upon the Cross. Note that when i say Elect, i use it interchangeably with the term saved... And when i say saved, i mean all those for which this sacrafice was efficacious. He didnt sacrafice Himself for EVERYONE's sins, because everyone would enter into Heaven, regardless of belief, but rather of those who believe in His name, who are judicially "made perfect forever" (Hebrews 10:14). So when i say saved, i mean this; we have no merit on our own, and can never have such. God would be just in sentencing me to hell for my actions, but instead, in love, He has granted me belief in His Son, and this belief makes the atoning work of the Cross applicable to me, removing all my sin, past, present and future,, making me legally sinless before God. This is refered to in Romans as the "rigtheousness that comes from God" So the believer is made righteous before God, forever, and because of the Blood shed on the Cross...likewise, we who believe are baptised into the death of Christ, and similarly, his resurection, and thus are new creatures, no longer slaves to sin, but set free from our slavery to sin... This is so perfect, so complete...the believer is justified before God (considered righteous, which is synonomous with sinless -hence forgiven), and is a new creation, free from the rule of sin and law, and under Grace, never to revert to our former state...we werent just changed, but rather reborn! Those who are saved are thus justified, and all that goes along with it, is an undeserved, complete gift of God...hence Grace. I guess, maybe, as shorthand, we can consider those who are saved to be those who will enter Heaven, as opposed to those who will enter Hell, but the explanation i gave was, well, fuller than just saying this... I just realized how difficult this is going to be...its been a while since i realized the distinct differences in LDS theology from Orthodiz theology even in points such as these...there will be a lot of definition of terms, and probably some redundant theology (me treating you like i would a seeker, and you doing the same in reverse), but that will only help us debate more clearly... with love, Elysium (Message edited by elysium on June 25, 2005) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 309 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.61 |
elysium, you just realized how difficult this is supposed to be....welcome to the threads, and I will say again, some of us have already gone over and over the same points you are now trying to convey to jd and any mormons reading these posts. You seem to think you will be able to share scriptural truths with jd. Go with God. As for myself, I will continue to share more of the false doctrines and principles of the lds for investigators and mormons who are seeking truth. It will be a nice break for us to be able to pass jd onto someone else to babysit. For that alone I am very grateful. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 310 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.61 |
Which brings me to another discussion I had at my mother's house a couple of days ago. She stated since she knows none of her children will ever be 'in the church again', she is doing more geneology than ever. I suppose she thinks that as soon as we die off, she can have the endowments (or the records will be available for someone like solopilot) done by proxy in our behalf so we will be with her in the celestial kindgom. I asked if she didn't have her geneology done by now. (45 years worth). She said now members are required to have two-thousand (2,000) names of their descendants, and that she and my (dead) stepfather are going as far back to Adam as they can. She does have 2,034 names of her descendants. (I saw the list as she asked me to go in and make sure myself and my family are correctly recorded.) She stated she can 'only use the lds geneological program to be accepted by the mormon church, and that the paperwork, which she also has to have a copy of, has to be bought from the mormon church. So she has copies from for her, the church, on disk and on paper. Incredible, isn't it. As if God does not know anything about us! | ||
| elysium (elysium) New member Username: elysium Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.23.3.71 |
"As if God does not know anything about us..." Valid point; i am just as concerned with the idea (hers, it seems) that she can somehow get around your acceptance of Christ and an Orthodox faith through a loophole...it all just strikes me as so sad; may God show mercy and grant her Faith. As for joesdad; i wonder if i could, in good conscience, ever stop trying...i am thankful for any imput, encouragement, or guidance that any of you, who have gone through this- as you said, might decide to offer. I do have hope for everyone alive, because it is never too late to be granted Faith in Christ; i only pray that the Lord ensures that what is said here is biblical, and rooted in the dual love of God and the hearer. I pray you the best in your endeavors with those you come in contact with, both here and in the course of your daily life, that the Lord may use you mightily. Go with God as well... with much love, Elysium | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 479 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC and Elysium: So far as I am aware (and am open to your pointing me to LDS official statements to the contrary) we are still only encouraged to do 4 generations (not GC's 2,000). Elysium - if the reason for your corresponding with me is trying to "convert me" away from Christ, well of course you can't do that. May I suggest that from my experience with GC and others like her, you do not behave in the way they do - i.e. please keep to facts, she pretends often to reveal "hidden" beliefs that in reality have never been accepted LDS doctrine - and had the propensity to simply lie about things - I have challenged her strongly on this point in the past, as has another LDS posting here - it is totally counter productive if you want me to entertain your views, to lie about what I believe (though I am not suggesting you intend to, and very much hope you do not). When I say lie, I mean to state I believe something that you full well know I do not (GC pretends she was taught all sorts of things), or make claim to statements or facts with no evidence of them (GC has a couple of times claimed to have visited web sites but been quite unable to remember where they were, despite them supposedly having condemning evidence shown on them! - or she just ignores requests to give details of them). I have chosen to, on the whole ignore most of what she says due to her proven dishonesty in the what she claims I believe. In reality, I have no need to lie or make false statements about what I believe in - nor would that achieve anything - however the temptation for others to bear false witness about what I believe must be overwhelming, as very few posting here have been able to resist it. Elysium, I look forward to discovering you are one of the few. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 480 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Elysium: Having just gotten back to work today, I am taking a copy of your above posts home, and hope to get back to you in details in the next few days. | ||
| elysium (elysium) New member Username: elysium Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
I am glad to see that we can debate civilly; as for representing the Church's beliefs... I have no desire for you to lie about what you believe; the whole point of this debate is to see who is correct, not to win. If, in the end, it comes down to a matter of faith, e.i., you believe in the validity of the BOM and i do not, then so be it, God will decide in any case. And of course, i want you to state what you believe; one thing i noticed though, about the church, is that getting a defined statement of belief CAN sometimes be difficult, so i might ask you to provide evidence that the church espouses a specific claim, just as i would if i said the church claims a position. It was my experience in the church that none of the members, at least in my ward(s), had a systematic theology. As an example, Polygamy...ask a dozen people why polygamy was commanded and then revoked and you get a dozen different answers; dont get me wrong, i realize that the same can be true for members of Orthodox Christianity, but it does explain why some of the things i remember being taught dont exactly sqaure up with what FARMS comes up with, or what i had read by LDS appologetics (with the same going for GC as well i imagine; and likewise with his mother!) As for my intention, i state it plainly; it is my hope that the Lord will use me to have you convert to the Orthodox Faith, which i believe is the onyl valid Christian Faith (all else being outside of Christianity). i dont want to trivk you into it, or use pretty words or logical traps to "convince" you, but rather try my best to demonstrate the biblical position, and be used of God where He may...in the end, i want another to praise God for his efforts in saving the lost, which i do consider those in the LDS church (a viewpoint, i pray you wont hold against me!) with love, Elysium | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 327 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.122.123 |
Once again jd has called me a liar without any proof. I am not a liar. By calling me a liar he calls my mother a liar. He is so quick to insult. She is a better MORMON than he will ever be. Wouldn't it be silly of me to state something like the number of how msny names (geneology) are now required if my mother had not stated it? The very fact that mormons require geneology for salvation (or exaltation, in their case) is blasphemous enough in itself, as the book of John tells us expressly 'not to do it'. Just think of the years and years and reams of paper that have been wasted. "Do not store things up on earth that thieves can break in and steal." And, "All these things shall pass away." Are all these Bible verses mistranslated, and if so, I wish a mormon would give the correct one. (As for my not giving jd websites, why should I when he instantly attacks the publishers of sites already shared? Why don't mormons share the ones I got from a mormon book at my mother's house. Is he trying to keep things from us or could he be unaware (after 25 years) of his church's teachings? Which is it? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 482 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: OK, where is that website showing postal details of church members you harped on about a while ago - even though I asked you over and over again to produce details of it - you failed to, and why? - because it does not exist and is simply a figment of your mormon-bashing imagination. To blame another for your false statements is pretty low GC. I would appreciate some examples of the web sites you have mentioned that I have attacked as you say - or are you kindly going to give me a week to research it for you? Once again, when you have an opportunity to defend what you have said and produce evidence to back it up - what do you do? - oh of course, your ususal course of action - ATTACK!! Love you for all you hard work. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 328 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.43 |
Wow, jd! I guess I should be advertizing a fictional account of life as a mormon by a mormon basher. Let's back up here. What 'postal details'? You'll have to refresh my memory. I've been really busy lately. As for you attacking websites, read again. I said you attack the publishers. Example: the Tanners and others. I'm not going to go back over all your posts, but please don't deny it. I am not here to prove or disprove what YOU SAY. I don't think you know enough about your religion to speak here about it. How many mormons have come on factnet to defend against what I say? You could count them on one hand. Why is that? Since sp is gone, hopefully back to his Christian roots, you are the only one who continues to call me and others liars. Do you really believe for one moment that you are the only mormon reading factnet? I feel very badly that you don't have more support. It would certainly make ME sit up and take notice. For your own benefit, please start at the beginning, which is the Holy Bible. God loves to give gifts. His best offer is so priceless and so perfectly suited to our needs and happiness, many (not only you or mormons) think it's too good to be true. The gift I speak of is not in return for anything I have done. There are no 'pay-backs', there is no debt. There is no debt. The Bible refers to it as the 'gift of God'(Romans 6:23); Ephesians 2:8-9). Paul added "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5). To have you know God's grace in your life would be wonderful to me, for sure. I cannot convert. I do not desire to convert. Paul once tried to earn his way into God's favor (Phillippians 3:3-9) but found we can only be saved by grace, and that not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9). Finally, I would like to say this to you, jd. I love my mother. Never would I do anything to intentionally harm or offend her. Having said that, I love God above all. All! I am sorry if you cannot understand that kind of love. My mother and I are able to speak about our differences in beliefs. But I do not and will not deny Christ for any living person or thing. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 329 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.43 |
Elysium, I had assumed from reading some of your posts that you are an ex-mormon. You at least seem to have information about the mormon belief system. It always surprises me that people are surprised that my mother, as a mormon, believes 'she can get around my acceptance of Christ and my orthodox beliefs with a loophole.' What do you think mormon temples are for? For heaven's sake. Even jd admits they are for endowments (marriages sealed for eternity which is unscriptural, and proxy baptisms for the dead, which is also unscriptural. Do you think all of this evidence is really just somthing that must be exaggerated by ex-mormons and christians? This is my concern. The idea that people think this is all so absurd that it 'just can't be so'. I am here to tell you it is so. | ||
| elysium (elysium) New member Username: elysium Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.23.3.71 |
godchild...lol Yes, i am an ex-mormon... I believe in true, orthodox Christianity (i attend a Baptist church, though i hold -deeply- to the reformed doctrines, just for the record) As for the LDS ceremonies, be they endowments, marriage, baptisms, and the like, i know all about them, having been through MOST of them (the ones i have not been through, marriage, baptisms for the dead, i cannot speak directly about, save for the false-theological underpinnings behind them) I am surprised at your mother's reaction, because the ward i was in taught that once i person had lived their life, and made their decisions about God and the LDS church, that was the lot they chose, with no more chances in the next life, save for those who hadnt heard about the church. The ward i was in taught that baptisms for the dead were ONLY for those who hadnt heard of the gospel, or had lived prior to J.S., and not for apostates...my reaction was part genuine surprise at the acceptance of such a doctrine, and part confusion about the churches OFFICIAL stance; as you can note, i asked JD if the church teaches that everyone will be saved a week or so ago, since it contradicted what i was taught while in it, but seems to be the standard line from what i have read online (i wanted clarification). GD, you wrote: "Do you think all of this evidence is really just somthing that must be exaggerated by ex-mormons and christians? This is my concern. The idea that people think this is all so absurd that it 'just can't be so'. I am here to tell you it is so." Unless i am mistaken, i read that to mean that your concerned that i am agreeing with JD in some way, or that i dont believe the evidence against the LDS church...if i am right in my interpretation, i must ask you, what, dearest friend, ever gave you that impression? I have no faith in the LDS system, no will i again; what i want, however, is a simple, defined statement of belief from the LDS side (and am willing to be as patient as needed to get it), so that a proper debate can ensue, and both sides be clearly laid out...if this happens, i have no doubt that the Lord will prevail, and the Orthodox position upheld. IN fact, i have no delusions or desire to win the argument, or play with words to justify my position, but rather spell it all out, and let God do what He will...we can do no more, and no less i think. I hope i havnt sounded too hard, or brash; i really want to convey the fact that i am completely on the side of Jesus Christ (hence the Orthodox stand), and in His name, i want a civil, organized debate... I want to close on this; i loved, godchild, your description of Grace and salvation above...it was rather beautiful... In His name, and with love, Elysium | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 335 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.119.153 |
Elysium, I was not trying to point you out, but I see I did so. I apologise. I now understand your questions to jd. It is frustrating (which is my problem, and I take responsibility for it) when I see people by-passing the core beliefs of mormonism; example: (1) multiple gods. That one false doctrine in my view is the first lie of satan. After that, nothing mormonism teaches can be considered Christ-like. Christ warned, as jd so aptly shared in Matthew 23, (although mormons use only the portion against prophets, and not the whole chapter), that no matter what a pretty wrapping religions come in, they are an abomination and are to be avoided, lest we be caught in their trap, which is satan's. A civil, organized debate would be wonderful, I agree. i will try harder to do my part in keeping it that way. May God truly bless you and yours, godchild | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 336 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.119.153 |
I can understand problems and accusations because each branch (church building) may be teaching doctrines not currently acceptable in the mormon church. Re: many of my mother's beliefs are obviously different from members in say, Georgia. It was in an Anchorage branch that I was taught the mormon belief that God literally had sex with Mary. My parents, who live in a different area, were very surprised that I was taught that because, though they did not deny the teaching, it was taught to me too early in my 'progression'. It has also been discussed here before by mormons who have stated church leaders may be speaking about their 'personal thoughts', which were taken as gospel by members. The fault should therefore be placed smack where it belongs; the horse's mouth, so to speak. There should, therefore, be no further accusations and insults calling people liars. Mormons who feel that lies are being published SHOULD do as the Holy Bible teaches; Search out these things. I thank God that He is not a God of confusion. | ||
| elysium (elysium) New member Username: elysium Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 24.23.3.71 |
I agree about the multiple gods issue; the church clearly teaches this, both overtly (as doctrine) and covertly (via the leader's "personal opinions"), and it is something that CANNOT be glossed over, or simply shrugged off. There is but ONE God, and any doctrine to the contrary is not of Jesus Christ... As for "pointing me out," bah, think nothing of it...i just wanted to make sure my position was clearly stated, so that there is no confusion in the future, and i beg you, if i make some statement that is confusing, backwards, or theologically incorrect, please, jump in and correct me! with love, Jason | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 338 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.120.3 |
Thanks Jason, and I will treat you with the same respect, as I will try harder to do with all posters here. Believe me, I do not 'know it all' but I do know that the Holy Spirit is in me (because God is always faithful to keep His Word), so I am learning too and will be to the end. Christians everywhere and in every situation should not be afraid to claim God's promises. I have been accused of being self-righteous and other things, but I know the only good work I do is through the Holy Spirit in me. If we do not claim it, how can we share it? I understand many people's timidity, as i was one very unsure person for many years. Now I am confident. God has shown me much evidence of His Love and grace. I do not personally take the credit for any of it. How false and self-serving that would be. A sister in Christ, godchild | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 339 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.237.114.147 |
In order to put an end once and for all to the accusations by jd, I went over this thread. jd posted 15 times. Let's see how many questions he answered. The first question put to him was 'Do mormons consider mainstream christianity acceptable in God's sight?' jd: The answer is necessarily vague to a point, blah, blah... (until the final paragraph where he states, 'we, lds are more understanding of those that can, may and will re-enter into the presence of God, than those of Christendom who attempt to restrict in any way possible the numbers. Alsmost hoping, it would seem that if they can exclude enough that God will have to accept them due to lack of numbers.' jd, please show evidence visible to the eye that shows the statement you made here to be true, either by Christians or mormon books. Then joesdad asks the question, 'What if your brand of christianity is not acceptable to God? What I think cannot determine his view, you can't blame me for that. (Does anyone else see that this statement shows that jd is unsure of what God desires?) jd's next statement is a continued attack against cjv's website;'cjv knows she is pedaling satanism from her site and making money from it (an accusation made with absolutely no proof)..blah, blah, and you have the nerve to PRETEND mormonism does what you accept she does.' (still no answers to questions.) Posted June 9-8:58 by jd 'please, a link to allow a read of the details of these women holding the priesthood would be helpful, blah, blah, hoping it is not in the same location of that other website I await from you.' (I gave an extensive list of my references, whereupon jd responded), 'I take it you still have no evidence visible to the human eye.' June 24 jd's response to Elysium's questions; 'you lost me a little there, blah, blah... July 4 jd statement, 'having just gotten home, I am taking a copy of your posts home, and hope to get back to you in detail in the next few days.' This thread started June 6. Who is not answering questions here? |
