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     ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
This history was previously posted on another thread, but I'm moving it here to make it easier for people to find. Primary and secondary sources include: --Corporate filings with various Secretaries of State --US Patent and Trademark records (www.uspto.gov) --Active web pages as well as web page archives accessible through www.archive.org --Publicly available deed and mortgage records --News articles, newsletters, etc. --The Forerunner (www.forerunner.com) ---------------------------------- This is a timeline of the history of Maranatha and its many front organizations such as: Morning Star International (MSI; now Every Nation Churches) Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM) Maranatha Christian Church(es) (MCC) Maranatha Christian Fellowship Campus Harvest Ministries (Maranatha) Campus Ministries International Campus Missions International (CMI) Champions For Christ (CFC) Victory Campus Ministries (now Every Nation Ministries) Victory Leadership Institute (now Every Nation Leadership Institute) Every Nation Churches/Ministries (ENC) etc. Part 1: Early Maranatha 1972—Maranatha starts on Murray State University (KY) campus 1975—Maranatha incorporated in KY on 2/28/75 as: Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. – based in KY with a KY address. This is the corporation that is filed under certificates of authority in multiple states (including Florida). Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc.—based in KY with a FL address. No other certificates of authority under this name were filed in any other state. This is presumably the corporation founded to house the corporate headquarters. Part 2: 1980s – Maranatha comes under increased scrutiny for high-pressure, cult-like tactics and teachings 1979-1987—Certificates of authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. are filed in multiple states. May, 1981—The Forerunner, Maranatha’s magazine, is first published December, 1981—Zipser articles critical specifically of Maranatha, as well as other campus cults, are published in the Phoenix Gazette. February, 1982—Kansas deprogramming bill passed by state House, as a result of Dee Dee Tillman’s involvement with and deprogramming from Maranatha. (The bill was ultimately defeated, however.) 1983—Maranatha leaves K-State campus under allegations of mind control/high-pressure, cult-like activities. 1982-1984—Ad-hoc Christian committee investigation of “Maranatha Campus Ministries;” Maranatha invited the investigation. Note that this was not yet the legal or even legally assumed name of this organization. 1983—Myatt articles are published, criticizing Maranatha’s unscriptural theology, over emphasis on spiritual authority, and mind control/psychospiritual coercion tactics. 1984-1985—A series of critical articles are published in the Christian and national press after the ad-hoc committee’s report was released. 1985—Champions for Christ established as a ministry of Maranatha (was not separately incorporated) July 15, 1985—Foreign Certificate of Authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. in Kansas is forfeited due to failure to file a timely annual report with the Kansas Secretary of State. However, the separately incorporated Maranatha church in Kansas (Maranatha Christian Church of Lawrence, Kansas) remains active. Dec. 9, 1985—Reel to Real Ministries incorporated in Virginia—is a Maranatha-related ministry. Maintains Gainesville, FL mailing address. October, 1986—“Champions for Christ” is used in commerce for the first time, according to records filed with the US Patent and Trademark Office. “Champions for Christ” logo is registered as a trademark of Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. Part 3: “Break up” of Maranatha 1986-1987—Local Maranatha Christian Churches (linked to the KY-address organization) are separately incorporated in multiple states. May 1, 1987—“Maranatha Campus Ministries International” is filed as the legally assumed name of both Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. and Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. May 27, 1987—Maranatha Christian Church of Lexington, KY is incorporated. 1987-88—A number of now-separately incorporated Maranatha churches amend their articles of incorporation to account for the possible future dissolution of Maranatha. These include Maranatha churches in Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Missouri, Kansas, Minnesota and Michigan. May 1, 1988—Bob and Rose Weiner close on a property for a new house in Gainesville, Florida. The 5 BR, 6 BA home is built in 1989, as Maranatha prepares to “disband.” The home is currently valued (2004) at approximately $400,000. 1988-89—Maranatha under increasing scrutiny for cult-like practices from the press, evangelical Christian groups (including CRI), counter-cult researchers, and higher education. February 2, 1989—Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. is incorporated in Gainesville, Florida. The board of directors are Brady Clark (Maranatha pastor in Austin, TX), David Houston (Maranatha pastor in Encino, CA; now currently w/MSI), and Mark Kyle (Kennesaw/Athens, GA). June 1989 —Maranatha (Maranatha Christian Church(es), Inc.) holds a board meeting in which it decides to disband. This story is what is announced to its membership in November 1989, and to the Christian press in March, 1990. November 1989—Maranatha announces the break up to its membership during its world conference. November 1989—Table Talk newsletter by Walter Walker (published by Maranatha) announces that the international office would be closed and that the central organizational structure of Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. would be dismantled. November 15, 1989—Chronicle of Higher Education article, “Some Colleges warn Students that Cult-like Methods are Being Used by Christian Fundamentalist Groups” is published; article primarily focuses on Maranatha. December, 1989—News of breakup has been announced to membership. Last Forerunner published by “old” Maranatha Campus Ministries is published. 1990 (n.d.)—Victory Campus Ministries is established on two campuses (unspecified on its website) with ten campus ministers (see www.vcm.org). These were probably University of Southern California (under Maranatha pastor Phil Bonasso) and University of the Philippines in Manila (under Maranatha pastor Steve Murrell). VCM was administered out of Phil Bonasso’s church in Los Angeles but wasn’t formally incorporated as a separate entity until 1996 (see below). Campus Harvest, the “official student conference of Victory Campus Ministries,” also started this year (see www.campusharvest.org) . This was not itself incorporated until December, 1993 (see below). Campus Harvest was run by Ron Lewis’ church in North Carolina, and annual conferences are held there. February 26, 1990—Maranatha Christian Church of Lexington, KY changes its name to Cornerstone Church of Lexington, KY. Kim Carroll (pastor), registered agent. March, 1990—Self-published Forerunner is printed; same Gainesville FL address. Jay Rogers is the new editor, taking over from Lee Grady. Jay Rogers had formerly been a writer for the Forerunner. March, 1990—Bob Weiner announces Brady Clark as the new executive director of Maranatha Campus Ministries in his personal letter to “partners.” March 19, 1990—Christianity Today article on Maranatha’s break up is published. March, 1990—Charisma and Christian Life’s article on Maranatha’s break up is published. Spring, 1990—Maranatha newsletter announces name change from “Maranatha Campus Ministries” to “Campus Ministries International.” The justification is that Maranatha was a popular name used by many ministries. Also Brady Clark’s naming as executive director is announced, as approved by “Maranatha Campus Ministries’ board” and also personally endorsed by Bob Weiner. April 15, 1990—Georgia Certificate of Authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. is withdrawn. April 23, 1990—Georgia Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. April 24, 1990—Maranatha Christian Church of the South Bay (Phil Bonasso, pastor and president) changes its name to Los Angeles—Victory Christian Church, Inc. in California. The Filipino church changes its name to Victory Church as well at around the same time [n.d.; Filipino business records are not publicly available to us in the US beyond basic name and address listings]. April 27, 1990—Iowa Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. May 2, 1990—North Carolina Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. Ron Lewis (pastor and president of Maranatha Christian Church of the Triangle), registered agent. Note: this is still an active legal name today in North Carolina. May 9, 1990—Missouri Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. David Hawes (pastor of MO Maranatha church), registered agent. May 9, 1990—Kansas Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. John McDermott (who is currently the pastor of what is now Morning Star Christian Church of Lawrence, KS), registered agent. 1990—Maranatha Christian Church of Lawrence, Kansas changes its name to New Hope Christian Fellowship of Lawrence, Kansas. May 17, 1990—Kentucky Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. Kim Carroll (pastor of what is now Cornerstone Christian Church of Lexington, KY), registered agent. May 23, 1990—Maranatha Christian Church of the Triangle (North Carolina) changes its name to Triangle Christian Fellowship. Ron Lewis (pastor), registered agent. June 1, 1990—Maranatha Christian Church of Houston, Inc. (Texas) changes its name to Grace Covenant Church. June 1, 1990—Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. assumes PO Box 1799, Gainesville, FL 32602 (previously the mailing address for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc.) June 11, 1990—Maranatha Publications, Inc. incorporated by Bob and Rose Weiner as a for-profit organization in Gainesville, FL. June 14, 1990—Maranatha Christian Church of Iowa City (Iowa) changes its name to Solid Rock Church. June 27, 1990—Bob and Rose Weiner Ministries incorporated in Gainesville, FL. June 29, 1990—Ohio Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. The mailing address listed on the receipt is PO Box 1799, Gainesville, FL. July 20, 1990—Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. files a name change to Campus Ministries International, Inc. in Florida. Note: this is the only state where the name change was made active. July 27, 1990—Champions for Christ, International is incorporated in Austin, TX. Board members listed were former Maranatha evangelist Rice Broocks, former Maranatha evangelist Greg Ball, Maranatha campus minister (Rice University, Houston) Ben Broocks, and athlete/former Maranatha—CFC leader AC Green. At this time, Rice Broocks is listed as being based in Midland, TX (where Word of Life/Mid-Cities Community Church is located). August 2, 1990—Texas Certificate of Authority filed for FL-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. The local address was in Austin, TX. Corporate officers listed are David Houston (President), Ron Lewis (VP) and Brady Clark (secretary). While the papers were not filed until August 2, they were notarized on March 20, 1990. Note that the certificate of authority was filed under the old name, not the new (Florida) name of the corporation. Also, note that this is still an active legal name today in Texas. September 1990—Dawson Lewis becomes the full-time administrator for the South African Maranatha church. The South African Maranatha church was established by Bill Bennot in 1987. This church would later merge into His People Christian Ministries. October 5, 1990—Both Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. and Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. are filed as dissolved with the Kentucky Secretary of State’s office. October 30, 1990—Phil Bonasso files himself as the new registered agent for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. (KY based corporation) in California, even though the organization was legally dissolved earlier that month. November, 1990—The Forerunner is now published by Bob and Rose Weiner Ministries. November 28, 1990—The now defunct Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. transfers the entire interest and goodwill of the Champions for Christ name and logo to Word of Life Church, Midland, TX (later renamed Mid Cities Christian Church). This is the church where Rice Broocks was then based. Note that the interest was not transferred to Champions for Christ at this time, even though CFC was already a separately incorporated entity. Part 4: Post-Maranatha ministries reconverge as Morning Star International April 23, 1991—Reel to Real Ministries files a Certificate of Authority in Florida; moves to Contonement, FL where the president, Eric Holmberg is located. Brady Clark is the registered agent in Florida and is on the Board of Directors. September 3, 1991—California Certificate of Authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. (Phil Bonasso, registered agent) is allowed to lapse due to “franchise tax board” forfeiture. August 31, 1992—Defunct Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. transfers the entire interest and goodwill for Champions for Christ’s name and logo to Champions for Christ International, Inc. This is despite the fact that (1) Maranatha had not been a legally viable entity for nearly two years and (2) it had already transferred the name and logo once to Word of Life/Mid Cities Community Church of Midland, TX in November 1990. September 15, 1992—New Hope Christian Fellowship of Lawrence, Kansas (previously Maranatha Christian Church of Lawrence, KS) dissolves. December 7, 1992—Los Angeles—Victory Christian Church, Inc. changes its name to Morning Star Christian Church, Inc. in California. Phil Bonasso remains the president, and Robert Atkinson (currently in charge of MSI’s finances) remains the registered agent. This is still its legal name and status today. December 12, 1992—Executives for Christ, Inc. is incorporated in Texas as a subsidiary of Champions for Christ. Board members include Greg Ball, Greg Feste, Ben Broocks, and John-Paul Morgante. March 27, 1993—Morning Star Christian Church of Lawrence, Kansas incorporates in Kansas. This is the current legal name today. However, according to its own website, the church was established in 1992 as a Morning Star International church. This places its founding at roughly the same time that New Hope Christian Fellowship/Maranatha Christian Church of Lawrence, KS formally dissolves with the Kansas Secretary of State. April 26, 1993—Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc./Campus Ministries International officially files a physical address change to Austin TX with the Florida Secretary of State’s office. June, 1993—Victory Leadership Institute (VLI) begins in Manila, Philippines. June 11, 1993—Rice Broocks purchases a home in Nashville, TN. September, 1993—The Forerunner begins a new South African publication for the South African Maranatha church (Bill Bennot), which had recently merged with His People Ministries under Paul Daniel (this church network is today part of Morning Star International) December 9, 1993—Campus Harvest Ministries, Inc. is incorporated in Durham, North Carolina. Ron Lewis, registered agent. Jim Laffoon is one of the leading ministers in this organization. However, according to its own website, it had been in existence as the “conference arm” of Victory Campus Ministries since 1990. December 16, 1993—Media House International, Inc. is incorporated in Florida by Jay Rogers. Media House International assumes publication of the Forerunner from Bob and Rose Weiner Ministries. March, 1994—According to MSI leaders, Morning Star International is established, merging Rice Broocks’, Phil Bonasso’s, and Steve Murrell’s ministries—Champions for Christ, Victory Churches and associated former-Maranatha ministries in the Philippines, and Los Angeles-based Morning Star Christian Church, Inc. (which includes Victory Campus Ministries). However, the paper trail indicates that Morning Star (under that name) was established as early as late 92-93, based on cooperative/covenantal relationships that did not cease when Maranatha “disbanded” in 1990. May 1, 1994—Campus Ministries International’s mailing address is changed from PO Box 1799, Gainesville, FL to Austin TX, in papers filed with the Florida Secretary of State’s office. May 1, 1994—Bob and Rose Weiner Ministries’ mailing address is changed to PO Box 1799, Gainesville, FL, in papers filed with the Florida Secretary of State’s office. August 15, 1994—Registered trademarks of Maranatha Christian Church(es), “Champions for Christ” and “Maranatha Christian Center” are filed as withdrawn with the US Patent and Trademark Office. August 24, 1994—Rice Broocks appears as a newly named director on Bethel Chapel’s Board of Directors, according to the annual report filed with the Tennessee Secretary of State. This is what would eventually become MSI’s headquarters in Nashville. November 4, 1994—Massachusetts Certificate of Authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. (Maranatha’s original Kentucky corporation) is allowed to lapse. This is four years after it dissolves in Kentucky. December 2, 1994—Morning Star Christian Church incorporates in Dallas, Texas. Joe Martin (pastor of Dallas church), registered agent. 1994—Rice Broocks is listed both as having a Midland, TX address and a Gainesville, FL address in respective white pages listings for that year. May 25, 1995—Campus Harvest Ministries, Inc. legally changes name to Triangle Christian Fellowship Campus Ministries, Inc. Ron Lewis remains the registered agent. However, it still operates under the name “Campus Harvest” to the present day. July, 1995—Media House International and Champions for Christ co-publish El Campione, Champions for Christ’s Spanish language equivalent to the Forerunner. Franco Gennarro, who is still a Latin American leader in Champions for Christ today (he is now based in Nashville and is also pastor of the MTSU church), is listed as the managing editor, sharing editing duties with Jay Rogers. November, 1995—Mail to Rice Broocks in Midland, TX from the Texas Secretary of State’s office re: Champions for Christ’s non-filing of a required report is returned to sender. 1996 (n.d.)—Champions for Christ is an active U of M ministry operating out of the Minneapolis Maranatha Christian Fellowship church pastored by Bruce Harpel. While Bruce Harpel’s church did not officially become part of the Morning Star “family” of churches, the local CFC chapter still operates even today out of his church. February 29, 1996—Victory Campus Ministries formally incorporates in Los Angeles, California. March 15, 1996—Champions for Christ is deactivated by the Texas Secretary of State office for failure to submit an annual report. Note that CFC was not a legally viable corporation from this date until August 11, 1998—so more than two years. However, they remained in operation during this time period. June 26, 1996—Victory Campus Ministries amends its incorporation papers as an official subsidiary of Morning Star Christian Church, Inc. November 22, 1996—Champions for Christ refiles the old Maranatha-owned CFC logo and the typed name, “Champions for Christ” with the US Patent and Trademark Office, claiming 10/1986 as the first use in commerce, thus claiming CFC’s Maranatha history. Note that CFC was not a legally viable corporation at this time. These filings were not initially approved for registration by the USPTO. March 31, 1997—Morning Star International, Inc. formally incorporates in Los Angeles, California. VCM, CFC, and the Filipino church are included in the MSI organization. April 22, 1997—Triangle Christian Fellowship changes its name to Kings Park International Church, Inc. Part 5: Morning Star International becomes fully established, but not without controversy February 13, 1998—Bethel Chapel changes its name to Bethel World Outreach Center. Spring 1998—Victory Leadership Institute begins its first Nashville class in Bethel World Outreach Center. late July—early August 1998—A series of articles critical of CFC are published first in the Chicago Tribune, then the Jacksonville Times-Union. August 11, 1998—Just as the national press starts taking notice of CFC, it files the necessary reports needed to reestablish itself as a legal corporation, after a lapse of over two years. Board members now also include Ron Lewis, pastor of the former Maranatha church in North Carolina. Week of August 23, 1998—national news articles (incl. New York Times, Sports Illustrated, etc.) critical of CFC are published. October 27, 1998—Morning Star Christian Church, Inc. is incorporated as a domestic corporation in Tallahassee, Florida. Directors include Greg Ball, Jim Laffoon, Charles Buhler (pastor) and Robert Owens. Registered agents also include Phil Bonasso, Ron Lewis, and Ronald Miller, Jr. 1998—The (Darrell Green) Youth Life Foundation is incorporated in Washington, DC. Brett Fuller, pastor of Grace Covenant Church/Metro Morning Star Church, is the chairman of the board of directors. July, 1999—Champions for Christ files a new logo and refiles the typed name “Champions for Christ” with the USPTO. CFC again claims 10/1986 as the date when “Champions for Christ” was first used in commerce. These were accepted as registered trademarks with the USPTO. Oct 28, 1999—The Youth Life and Community Foundation is incorporated in North Carolina. Ron Lewis, registered agent. November 9, 1999—Longtime Bethel board members, Elizabeth McCollum (Ray McCollum’s wife) and Jerry Postell are replaced on Bethel World Outreach Center’s board with John Rohrer (former Maranatha), Ronald Caldwell and Deborah Caldwell. 1999—Rice Broocks becomes senior pastor of Bethel World Outreach Center, Nashville, TN, taking over from Ray McCollum, the founding senior pastor. Ray McCollum becomes the senior teaching pastor and begins traveling to teach in MSI churches worldwide. February 1, 2000—Bethel World Outreach Center approves an amended and restated charter. The charter brings Bethel under the complete legal control and oversight of Morning Star International. Note that the amended charter was not filed with the Tennessee Secretary of State until March 29, 2001. March 17, 2000—Reel to Real Ministries moves from Florida to Bethel World Outreach Center/MSI. Maintains existing working relationship with Jay Rogers (and Media House International, which still publishes the Forerunner), is listed on staff as a script writer, and also sells Reel to Real produced materials through the Media House International/Forerunner web site. Begins receiving more contributions, including large individual donations (identities of donors are not listed on Form 990). Officers include Eric Holmberg, David Litwin, Franco Genarro, Eric Krodel, Ronda Holmberg, Brady Clark, and Robert Fitzgerald. Both Holmbergs and Franco Genarro list their business address as being in Brentwood TN. Reel to Real’s mailing address is now the same as MSI Nashville’s – PO Box 1787, Brentwood, TN 37024. The Virginia Division of Corporations also lists Reel to Real as having a Brentwood physical address. March-April 2000—His People Christian Churches of South Africa completes its merger with Morning Star International, which had been in the works since 1997. His People closes on a property that would by August 2000 house its new 5,000 seat, state of the art facility. The His People merger essentially doubles Morning Star International, according to figures available from the World Christian Database. April 27, 2000—According to the annual report filed with the Tennessee Secretary of State, Bethel World Outreach Center’s board is now comprised of all former Maranatha leaders/pastors, with the exception of Ray McCollum. Rice Broocks is named President/CEO, replacing Ray McCollum. Other board members now include Bert Thomson (secretary/treasurer), Brett Fuller (VP), John Rohrer, and Ron Lewis. Note that the already amended charter did not accompany this annual report, but was not filed with the SOS until nearly a year later. April 30, 2000—Rice Broocks receives a $182,000 loan (12/27/2019 maturity date, 6.2% interest rate) from the Malachi Foundation, a “charity” run by Austin-based financier, Morning Star International Founder’s Club Chairman, and Executives for Christ board member Greg Feste that makes “grants” almost exclusively to Morning Star International pastors, ministers, and ministries. Payments on the loan are to be made annually at the end of each calendar year. May, 2000—Both Rice Broocks (5/2) and Phil Bonasso (5/12) close on their new residential properties. Rice Broocks begins building what would become a $1.67 million home. Phil Bonasso purchases his home for just under $1.2 million. September 14, 2000—Phil Bonasso receives a $150,000 loan (12/27/2019 maturity date, 6.2% interest rate) from the Malachi Foundation, a “charity” run by Austin-based financier and CFC board member Greg Feste that makes “grants” almost exclusively to Morning Star International pastors, ministers, and ministries. Payments on the loan are to be made annually at the end of each calendar year. September 21, 2000—Morning Star International, Inc. files a Certificate of Authority in Nashville, TN. Morning Star International headquarters are officially located in Nashville. However the administrative headquarters remain in Southern California. MSI now has essentially four official headquarters: Nashville (apostolic world headquarters), Los Angeles (administrative world headquarters), Manila, and Austin (home of Champions for Christ and Executives for Christ). Part 6: Morning Star International continues to expand and begins process of changing its name to Every Nation 2001—Bob and Rose Weiner Ministries lists grants to Morning Star Christian Church (MSI-Los Angeles), Victory Campus Ministries, and Reel to Real Ministries on its IRS Form 990. February 1, 2001—Morning Star International adds www.everynation.org redirect to its website; actual URL remains www.morningstar2010.com. February, 26, 2001—Victory Productions logo is replaced with Every Nation Productions name and logo on the Filipino Morning Star International/Victory Church website (www.victory.org.ph). Note that Victory Productions (aka Every Nation Productions) is a separate legal entity in the Philippines only, NOT in the US. Spring 2001—Victory Campus Ministries is established on Kansas State University’s campus, nearly 20 years after Maranatha was banned from K-State’s campus. Both K-State’s and University of Kansas’s VCM plants are based out of Morning Star Christian Church of Lawrence, Kansas, pastored by former Maranatha John McDermott. September 13, 2001—After driving with a team of Bethel World Outreach Center pastors and leaders to minister in the wake of the 9/11 tragedy, Rice Broocks calls in on speaker phone to a prayer meeting assembled at BWOC. He talks about the distraught people searching for loved ones and says that besides the Scientologists, they are the only people ministering at Ground Zero. He apparently did not see the tent that had been set up at Ground Zero by David Wilkerson’s Times Square church. Soon after his return to Nashville, Rice Broocks announces that Bethel World Outreach Center would take this opportunity, while New Yorkers’ hearts were spiritually opened, to plant a new church in New York City. September 21, 2001—Reel to Real Ministries’ Florida Certificate of Authority lapses due to failure to submit an annual report. To date it has not been reinstated. However, Reel to Real Ministries remains an active corporate entity in Virginia, where it was originally incorporated. October 2001—Bethel World Outreach Center starts a church plant at the Lamb’s Theatre in Times Square, NYC, in the wake of 9/11. Pastoral staff (including Rice Broocks and worship leader Kevin Singleton) fly from Nashville to NYC every week after late morning service in order to hold evening service in the new church plant. Kings Park International Church is also involved in the church plant. This church meets within seven blocks of David Wilkerson’s Times Square church. October 7, 2001—Morning Star International reports to its membership that a “new” Morning Star International “planted” in Boston by King’s Park International Church will start meeting on this date. This is to be the home base for the Victory Campus Ministries chapters in the Boston area. However, corporate records filed with the Massachusetts Secretary of State show that this is not a new church at all but is instead a renamed Maranatha church that has been continually incorporated since 1986 (see below for change of name date). A certificate of authority for the “old” Maranatha (Maranatha Christian Church, Inc.) had been filed in 1981 and didn’t lapse until 1994. Also the VCM chapter based at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) reports on its website that it has been in continuous operation since the 1980s… as a Maranatha Campus Ministries chapter: http://web.archive.org/web/20040322161454/http://web.mit.edu/vcm/www/about.html November 1, 2001—DC pastor and CFC board member Brett Fuller purchases a home in Chantilly, VA for $787,000. November 16, 2001—Force Ministries, Inc. is incorporated in Austin, TX as a subsidiary of Champions for Christ. Registered agents include Greg Ball, Jim Laffoon, and Greg Wark (pastor of the San Diego Morning Star church). November 18, 2001—Tree of Life City Church (formerly Maranatha Christian Church of Boston) legally changes its name to Morning Star International Church of Boston. Despite the fact that this was characterized as a new church plant, this church was originally incorporated as a Maranatha church on May 13, 1986, and is currently operating under the same corporate charter plus amendments. November 29, 2001—The Youth Life Foundation of Tennessee is incorporated in Nashville, TN. 2002—Reel to Real Ministries lists a small cash donation from Weiner Ministries on its IRS Form 990. 2002—Frontline Strategic Resources (aka Frontline Partners), a fund raising arm of Morning Star Christian Church of Dallas, lists a $5,000 grant to Campus Missions International. Campus Missions International is an expired (2000) assumed name of Maranatha Christian Church of Minneapolis, and appears to have been operating under the aegis of Purpose Ministries, which includes board members and former Maranathas Bruce Harpel, Nick Pappis, Tom May, and Rusty Russell. Most of these board members in turn have direct ties with Bob and Rose Weiner through joint membership on the boards of Miracle Life Ministries (Rusty Russell’s prophetic ministry) and Bob and Rose Weiner Ministries. 2002—Morning Star International launches VLI online: www.vlionline.com February 15, 2002—Victory Campus Ministries amends its incorporation papers as an official subsidiary of Morning Star International, Inc. April, 2002—Brett Fuller announces to his (then) approximately 200 member congregation that the MSI International Apostolic Team (of which he is a member) have advised Grace Community Church to stop with its plans to build on its existing property in Fairfax County, VA and instead think bigger. They begin looking at another property but never purchase it. At this point, the church had raised $2.7 million toward its building fund. July 30, 2002—The Global Café, Inc. is incorporated in Brentwood, TN. This is the former Planet Hollywood located in downtown Nashville that has been purchased by MSI Nashville, and is used for youth ministries and other church-related meetings. It is not yet open to the public. Summer 2002—Victory Campus Ministries is established as a registered student group at Southeast Missouri State University. This was once the site of a very active MCM chapter that had spawned present day MSI leader Paul Barker. August, 2002—Ron Lewis replaces Rice Broocks as senior pastor of the Morning Star NYC church. He remains the president and registered agent of KPIC as well as the other ministries based out of KPIC. August, 2002—Beth Shalom Center (a charismatic Russian messianic Christian church first incorporated in 1996) of Brooklyn, NY joins with MSI. August 27, 2002—Youth Life Foundation of the Triangle is incorporated in North Carolina. The incorporation papers note its relationship with the (Darrell Green) Youth Life Foundation. Ron Lewis, registered agent. September 16, 2002—Morning Star International (TN) files “Every Nation Productions” with the US Patent and Trademarks Office; first use in commerce 10/2000. This is now a registered trademark of Morning Star International. Note that ENP is not a separately incorporated entity in the US, and that this US trademark is owned by MSI Nashville, NOT Victory Productions/Every Nation Productions in the Philippines. September 16, 2002—Morning Star International (TN) files “Every Nation in Our Generation” with the US Patent and Trademarks Office; first use in commerce 7/1999. November, 2002—Charisma Magazine publishes a series of articles supporting Champions for Christ; CFC is Charisma’s cover story that month. November, 2002—Paul Daniel steps down from his position as head of His People Christian Ministries due to “illness” and is removed to MSI’s Nashville headquarters by the MSI International Apostolic team: http://www.capeargus.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=148649 December, 2002—Life Christian Church of St. Louis, MO joins with Morning Star International. Rick Shelton continues as the senior pastor and Joyce Meyer continues on the church board of directors. December 31, 2002—Media House International lists Cuban distribution of the Champion, its Spanish language newspaper co-published with Champions for Christ, as one of its accomplishments for that year on its annual report. Note that Media House International/Forerunner (as well as Reel to Real Ministries, with which it has a close working relationship) is unapologetically Christian Reconstructionist/Dominion Now upon reviewing its website at www.forerunner.com . Its theology, focus, etc. did not change from the early pre-Maranatha “breakup” writings posted to present. January 27, 2003—Morning Star New York (MSNY, Inc.) formally incorporates in Nassau County, New York State. January 31, 2003—Rick Shelton purchases a new $673,042 home from Mayer Custom Homes, St. Louis, MO. 2003—Reel to Real Ministries lists a $500 donation to the Bethel World Outreach Center Building Fund on its Form 990 of this year. It also claims “no relationship” with Bethel World Outreach which is a patently false statement, since both Reel to Real and Bethel World Outreach Center are Morning Star International ministries (according to the pastor’s agreement/covenant, as Morning Star ministries they are both required to have an article to that effect in their bylaws), and Reel to Real is currently based in Bethel World Outreach Center. February 5, 2003—Gareth Stead replaces Paul Daniel as senior pastor on His People-Cape Town’s website: http://web.archive.org/web/20030205161746/www.capetown.hispeople.org/capetown/ February 14, 2003—Paul Daniel is removed from the International Apostolic Team as listed on MSI’s website: http://web.archive.org/web/20030214194056/www.morningstar2010.com/about/board.html This is in accordance with MSI’s officially stated procedures in which pastors/leaders removed from one board position (i.e., as a head pastor) are removed from all other MSI board positions. Note that this is before he supposedly confessed of sin to MSI Apostolic Team members, before he purchased a home in Franklin, Tennessee, before he is delisted as Cape Town’s senior pastor on MSI’s master World Directory and before his videotaped confession. March, 2003—Paul Daniel purchases a nearly $600,000 home in Franklin, Tennessee, just a few doors down from Jim Laffoon, who had purchased his nearly $600,000 home a year earlier. May, 2003—Paul Daniel’s videotaped confession of two extramarital affairs is shown to his “shocked” former congregation in South Africa. The confession took place after a period of “professional counseling,” as reported by the (South African) Cape Argus (http://www.capeargus.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=148649). In actuality, this “counseling” was not conducted by professional licensed marriage/family counselors but by Morning Star International Apostolic Team members, including neighbor Jim Laffoon. His People—Cape Town (where Paul Daniel was senior pastor) comes under the direct authority/“covering” of the Nashville-based Morning Star leadership rather than under African-based leadership. June, 2003—Ray McCollum is no longer listed as a pastor with Bethel World Outreach Center, the church he founded and built. According to its next annual report filed with the Tennessee Secretary of State on 3/8/2004, he had also been removed from the board of directors effective July 1, 2003. June 8, 2003—Gareth Stead officially replaces Paul Daniel as senior pastor on MSI’s worldwide directory: http://web.archive.org/web/20030608151743/http://www.morningstar2010.com/directory/africa.html August, 2003—Morning Star International files Every Nation, Every Nation Publishing, Every Nation Churches, and Every Nation Ministries with the US Patent and Trademarks office. August 20, 2003—Brett Fuller sells Grace Covenant Church’s vacant property (the property they were told not to build on) for $1.1 million. It was purchased in 1999 for $525,000. September, 2003—Articles critical of (Darrell Green) Youth Life Foundation are published in the Washington Post and Youth Today. July 25, 2003—Morning Star International files a Certificate of Authority in St. Louis, MO. November 18, 2003—Brett Fuller’s Grace Covenant Church changes its name to Metro Morning Star of Sterling, VA. December, 2003 – Rice Broocks presents former KPIC-based campus pastor, Morgan Bates, to Life Christian Church in St. Louis as their new assistant pastor. Bates had most recently served in His People in South Africa in the wake of Paul Daniel’s removal as senior pastor. It is announced that this is in order to promote making Life Christian a more racially integrated church. 2004—Morning Star International now has 70+ churches internationally; approximately the same size as Maranatha Christian Church, Inc/Maranatha Campus Ministries in 1989. January 12, 2004—Former His People church administrator under Paul Daniel, Michael Swain, purchases a home for $571,142 in Franklin, Tennessee, on the same street as Paul Daniel, Jim Laffoon, and John Rohrer. Spring, 2004—Morning Star International requires that all local churches offer VLI as a condition of remaining in Morning Star International (this had already been strongly encouraged in MSI’s pastoral Guidelines document). All local members are highly encouraged to attend VLI, both by local pastors and visiting Morning Star International leaders. Videos produced in MSI Nashville are shipped to local churches. These videos are also available through VLI Online. Note: all campus ministers had already been required to attend VLI’s Graduate School for Campus Ministry, based in Los Angeles under Leo Lawson. March 24, 2004—Brett Fuller’s church changes its name to Metro Morning Star, Inc. Summer, 2004—Metro Morning Star in Northern Virginia is meeting in a local high school. The building fund appears to have been dropped, despite having raised $2.7 million by April 2002 (there is no data showing how much was raised since then) and also making an additional $575,000 on the sale of its property. March, 2004—Newsboys, Inc. places the “Have You Done the Purple Book Yet” logo on its home page. Both Newsboys’ lead singer (Peter Furler) and long time manager (Wes Campbell) are active members of Bethel World Outreach Center. May 19, 2004—Greg Ball is removed from his board/leadership positions with the Morning Star Church in Austin, Champions for Christ, and Executives for Christ. June, 2004—Morning Star International changes its website to a more closed, restricted access format. The church directory is no longer listed for text download, and searches by pastor name are no longer possible. The website is also moved to a Missouri hosting location—the same ISP hosting the local Morning Star church’s (Life Christian Church) web site. July, 2004—Morning Star International announces at its annual conference that it is changing its name to Every Nation, because of confusion with other ministries bearing the Morning Star name, and because God led them to change it just as God renamed Abram, Abraham. The rationales presented were essentially the same as those published in the 1990 Maranatha newsletter announcing the name change from Maranatha Campus Ministries to Campus Ministries International. It was also at this time that a reorganization effort began under the leadership of Steve Murrell, according to his blog dated 10/30/2005. July – August 2004—Victory Leadership Institute is renamed Every Nation Leadership institute in some of the top churches, including Bethel World Outreach Center in Nashville and Kings Park International Church in Durham, NC. August 2004—beyond—MSI Nashville begins videotaping revised VLI (now named Every Nation Leadership Institute) classes at Bethel World Outreach Center. August 25, 2004—Alpha Iota Omega, a three-person fraternity at the University of North Carolina—Chapel Hill, files suit against the university in U.S. District Court for religious discrimination. Alpha Iota Omega had refused to sign UNC’s non-discrimination statement and was subsequently removed as a registered student group on campus. AIO can still meet on campus but no longer has access to student fees, to priority scheduling of facilities, and access to/ability to solicit from other student groups. AIO’s bylaws and manual filed with the original complaint show that the fraternity is actually a front for UNC’s Victory Campus Ministries and King’s Park International Church. All of AIO’s members and its Board of Directors are also VCM/MSI/EN members. AIO recruits prospective secular Greeks into VCM/KPIC—which would be one reason why maintaining registered student group status would be so important to the success of the organization. In addition, the “accountability” and “demerit” system, in which members’ dress, attendance at meetings, etc. are micromanaged, indicates hard core Shepherding, which Maranatha/Morning Star leaders supposedly abandoned 15 years earlier. AIO is represented in part by the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian defense fund whose founders were cosigners on the 1985 Coalition on Revival covenant with former Maranatha leaders Bob Weiner and Bob Martin. Fall 2004—Paul Barker, a former Maranatha pastor, is made an associate pastor of Life Christian Church in St. Louis. This native Missourian was previously based in MSI’s Nashville headquarters. There are no indications that he had also stepped down as dean of VLI/ENLI when he was relocated. There are now two loyal MSI/EN pastors on staff at this church (Barker and Morgan Bates, out of Kings Park International Church); one a former Maranatha pastor. September 2004—“Bethel Community Church” (actually Bethel World Outreach Center/MSI Nashville) files plans to build a new church on a historic property in Franklin TN owned by Wes Campbell, Newsboys’ manager. These plans are initially rejected due to the feared impact the construction might have on the historic building located on the property. Note that the land has not yet been formally transferred or sold to Bethel or to MSI. October 2004—His People Church in London, England is officially renamed Every Nation Church. It announces on its website that it is possibly the first church in Morning Star International/Every Nation to officially change its name in response to the organization’s name change: http://www.hispeoplelondon.org October 3, 2004—MSI/Every Nation takes over Chapel of Glory International Ministries/Triumphant Faith Ministries, a G-12, apostolic/prophetic charismatic ministry organization based in Lagos, Nigeria: http://www.realmofglory.org/the%20word.htm October 11, 2004—This Day Sunday online newspaper (based in Nigeria) states that Wes Campbell, Newsboys’ manager/producer and president of CCM label InPop Records, is also Every Nation Productions president. However, Every Nation Productions is not a separately incorporated entity in the US but is rather operating wholly out of Every Nation’s headquarters at Bethel World Outreach Center (www.thisdayonline.com/news/sunday/20041010rel01.html). October 28, 2004—Greg Ball incorporates a new ministry, named Bridge International Ministries, in Austin, TX. This does not appear to be a Morning Star International/Every Nation ministry and possibly signals his final break with the organization. November 2, 2004—Newsboys, Inc. begins selling Biblical Foundations (the “Purple Book”) through its website. They are also giving free copies away at concerts and are encouraging concert goers, particularly the unchurched, to go to Every Nation churches. November 4, 2004—Greg Ball’s former church, Morning Star Christian Church of Austin, Inc. (TX), now pastored by Ray McCollum, files a new assumed (fictitious) DBA name with the Texas Secretary of State: Community Christian Church. However, Ray McCollum is not made the legal registered agent or president of this church at this time, unlike most other MSI/EN churches in the US where the senior pastor is also the president and/or registered agent. November 2004—“Every Nation” is posted as the official logo on this Morning Star corporate website: http://64.47.91.38/scouting/. In addition, Morning Star International more broadly uses the “Every Nation” name rather than “Morning Star International.” November 15, 2004—InPop Records, Inc., a CCM label owned by Peter Furler and Wes Campbell, change its corporate charter, bylaws, and common stock filings with the Tennessee Secretary of State. It had previously been a subsidiary of 1-2-3 Entertainment, which administratively dissolved in September, 2004. While Furler and Campbell remain majority stockholders, the revised charter allowed for Rice Broocks, Tony Boselli and Mark Brunell to purchase significant amounts of stock in the company through a private stock offering (see 12-9-2004 EDGAR filings). In addition. Broocks, Boselli, and Brunell are named to InPop's Board of Directors. Since the revised charter allows a quorum (simple majority) of the Board to vote on and conduct business for the company, it is technically possible for Broocks, Boselli, and Brunell to meet as the Board without Campbell and Furler if they so choose... and as a unified voting bloc, they also have the power to remove or replace them as officers of the corporation if they so choose. November 18, 2004: “Bethel Community Church” (actually Bethel World Outreach Center/MSI Nashville) files revised plans to build a new church on a historic property in Franklin, TN owned by Wes Campbell, Newsboys’ manager. Former His People administrator, Michael Swain, was to represent the church before the Franklin planning commission, according to the meeting agenda. Note that the land has not yet been formally transferred or sold to Bethel or to MSI. November 22, 2004: The VCM chapter based at MIT removes the reference to its Maranatha history from its website: http://web.mit.edu/vcm/www/about.html. November 29, 2004: Global Café LA incorporates in California. David Polus, pastor of Morning Star of the Valley (Studio City), is the registered agent. December 9, 2004—Rice Broocks, Tony Boselli, and Mark Brunell purchase $1.4 million in common stock from InPop Records, Inc., according to SEC/EDGAR filings. December 16, 2004—The Missouri Certificate of Authority for Morning Star International, Inc. lapses for failure to submit an annual report. End of December, 2004-beginning of January, 2005—Paul Daniel and his family reportedly have returned to South Africa. Their Franklin home is placed on the real estate market but was subsequently delisted before having been sold. Part 7: Is a reorganization of Morning Star International/Every Nation Churches and Ministries underway? January 1, 2005—Jim Laffoon begins posting daily teachings/blogs on Newsboys’ website: www.newsboys.com. January 12, 2005—The Every Nation name change is formally announced on MSI/Every Nation’s website. January 14, 2005—Morning Star International, Inc. formally changes its name to Every Nation Churches, Inc., and Victory Campus Ministries, Inc. formally changes its name to Every Nation Ministries, Inc. with the California Secretary of State. “Every Nation” is not a legal corporate name in and of itself but is a registered trademark of Every Nation Churches, Inc. January 19, 2005—Global Café, Inc. opens in downtown Nashville. The restaurant is a for-profit enterprise owned by Bethel World Outreach Center. Rice Broocks is the CEO, and BWOC pastors and officers/board members Bert Thomson and Tim Johnson are also officers/board members of Global Café, Inc. February 16, 2005—The Middle North Carolina District Court judge tells Alpha Iota Omega and the University of North Carolina to reach an out of court settlement in its religious discrimination case by February 28, 2005. If no agreement is reached, then the court will make a ruling in the case. February 27, 2005—Tim Johnson, former senior associate pastor of Bethel World Outreach Center, is instituted as senior pastor. Rice Broocks becomes “senior minister,” overseeing Bethel’s various campuses/church plants throughout Middle Tennessee, including the new Franklin church plant. February 28, 2005—Alpha Iota Omega and the University of North Carolina fail to reach an out of court settlement. As a result, the court awards AIO a preliminary injunction restoring their registered student group status pending the outcome of the case. February 28, 2005—The Durham News & Observer publishes an article questioning Alpha Iota Omega’s connections to King’s Park International Church, Victory Campus Ministries and Every Nation; the article reveals that according to its corporate charter, KPIC is a renamed Maranatha church. March 19, 2005—Newsboys, Inc. joins InPop Records’ roster, which effectively intertwines the band legally with Every Nation. March 22, 2005—Newsboys changes websites; it is now hosted on the same domain as InPop Records. The new website prominently features Every Nation teachings, publications, and leaders, further entrenching the group as an Every Nation subministry. Spring 2005—Individual churches begin legally changing their name to "Every Nation," reflecting the new identity of the parent corporation. Spring 2005—Global Café LA opens in Studio City, California. Spring 2005—Morning Star International Church of Boston (formerly Maranatha Christian Church of Boston, MA) lists a new name, "Beacon City Church" on its website. However, as of August 26, 2005, the legal corporate name of the entity is still Morning Star International Church of Boston. May 4, 2005—Morning Star Christian Church of Lawrence, KS incorporates a new non-nationally affiliated ministry to take the place of Victory Campus Ministries/Every Nation Campus Ministries chapters previously based out of its church: Midwest Student Ministries. Chapters are registered at both University of Kansas (KU) and Kansas State University (K-State). May 11, 2005—Two families file suit in US District Court against Victory Clubs of America, Bethel World Outreach Center, and Metro Nashville consolidated government for injuries incurred as a result of two girls' involvement in the Victory Club chapter at Hillsboro High School, Nashville, TN. According to news reports as well as the complaint as filed in US District Court, one girl attempted suicide and the other required mental health hospitalization. May 31, 2005—Champions for Christ’s website redirects to its 2005 conference website and the old Flash site is no longer active. Champions’ headquarters has also been moved from Austin, TX to Sterling, VA – where Metro Morning Star’s offices are also located. Brett Fuller is listed as the president and Tony Boselli the executive vice president of CFC. June 1, 2005—Every Nation posts a newly redesigned website on the first anniversary of its last major site redesign; the new site fully incorporates the new Every Nation Churches and Every Nation Ministries brands. Morning Star International is no longer used as an active "brand name.” In addition, "Victory Clubs" is now called "Every Nation Youth" even though it is still legally "Victory Clubs" as of this date according to the Tennessee Secretary of State. June, 2005—Victory Campus Ministries announces that it is merging with other affiliate ministries; the parent organization is legally Every Nation Ministries (the renamed VCM). Every Nation’s campus arm is now named Every Nation Campus Ministries but is not a separately incorporated entity as VCM was. The other ministries merging into Every Nation Ministries are “Every Nation Youth” (still legally *Victory Clubs as of 6/05), *Force Ministries, *Champions for Christ, Every Nation Leadership Institute, ENLI Graduate Schools, Every Nation conferences, Every Nation Productions and online store, and Every Nation World Missions. It is unclear at this time whether some of the other affiliate ministries, including *Campus Harvest, Arts, Culture and Entertainment, Center for Cultural Apologetics/*Reel to Real, *African American Resource Ministry, etc. are also being merged into Every Nation Ministries or are instead considered subministries of specific Every Nation churches. *=separately incorporated entity in the US June 23, 2005-According to the annual report filed with the Missouri Secretary of State, Rick Shelton is removed as chairman and Donna Shelton removed as president of Life Christian Center, St. Louis, MO. The Sheltons remain on the church board of directors, but the new president is now Michael Shepard, who is also now acting senior pastor. Phil Bonasso, Every Nation CFO, is also added to Life Christian's board of directors at this time. July, 2005—Sometime during the first two weeks of July, Victory Clubs'(now known as Every Nation Youth) old URL (www.victoryclubs.com) redirects to a commercial domain licensing site owned by Network Solutions. There is no redirect to the new URL, which is now www.everynationyouth.com. This is unlike Every Nation's other URLs which had either been redirected to the correct sites (www.championsfc.com; www.morningstar2010.com) or were maintained at the old location under the old name with a name change announcement (www.vcm.com). July 20, 2005—Every Nation files a new foreign Certificate of Authority for Every Nation Ministries, Inc. with the Tennessee Secretary of State. July 26, 2005—Every Nation files a name change from Morning Star International to Every Nation Churches, Inc. for its existing foreign Certificate of Authority in Tennessee. August 19, 2005—The foreign Certificate of Authority for Every Nation Churches, Inc. in Tennnessee is administratively revoked, according to the Tennessee Secretary of State. Every Nation Ministries, Inc. remains an active corporate entity in Tennessee. August 19, 2005—Every Nation administratively dissolves Victory Clubs of America, which had been incorporated as a non-profit organization in Tennessee. Its successor, Every Nation Youth, is not a separate legal entity as Victory Clubs of America was but is instead part of Every Nation Ministries, Inc. Summer, 2005—Leo Lawson is no longer acting dean of the School for Campus Ministry. September, 2005—Tony Fetchel, West Coast Regional Campus Director, is removed from his ministry position after allegations of a personal scandal. September 9, 2005—Morning Star International Church of Boston (formerly Maranatha Christian Church of Boston, MA) changes its name with the Massachusetts Secretary of State to Beacon City Church. This is the fourth name change for this former Maranatha church whose primary outreach is to Boston-area college campuses. September 25, 2005—Every Nation churches in Singapore and Austin, TX (Christ Community Church pastored by Ray McCollum; was formerly Morning Star Christian Church of Austin pastored by former Maranatha/MSI leader Greg Ball) begin Rick Warren’s 40 Days of Purpose campaign. Fall, 2005—Every Nation Churches revises its statement of faith to be in line with that of the National Association of Evangelicals. The new version affirms the Trinity as one God in three Persons, while the old version at least allowed for the possibility of modalism. ENC also now publicly embraces and adopts the Nicean and Chalcedon Creeds. (While it is still available... the old version can be seen here: www.bwoc.org->About Bethel->Statement of Faith). October, 2005—Every Nation openly acknowledges a “reorganization” movement apparently under the leadership of board member Steve Murrell, in which a re-organization team has been convened, a consultant has been hired (Olan Hendrix/Leadership Resource Group; who was the founding president and incorporator of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability), and its financial statements are being audited by an independent auditor. However, it hasn't been confirmed yet as of this date (10-31-05) whether there has been a change to the Board of Directors or if it still consists of Murrell, Phil Bonasso, and Every Nation CEO Rice Broocks. November 1, 2005--Newsboys' Our Daily Blog: Devotions by Pastor Jim Laffoon is released. Inspirio/Zondervan, publisher. This published version include the same blogs that have been posted on Newsboys' website since January, 2005. Newsboys and Jim Laffoon are listed as co-authors. November 2, 2005—Morning Star Christian Church of Lawrence, KS is no longer listed in Every Nation’s national directory. However, the K-State and KU Every Nation Campus Ministries chapters are still listed in the VCM/ENCM national directory as of this date. The K-State VCM/ENCM leader as listed in the national directory is the same person who is the registered agent for the non-nationally affiliated Midwest Student Ministries. (Message edited by ulyankee on November 05, 2005) | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Intermediate Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 128.194.115.135 |
Ulyankee- Thank you for posting this updated timeline. It is really an eye-opener when you carefully read it. I hadn't realized just how well Broocks and others are doing financially until I noticed their expensive homes and stock purchases, etc. Kind of sickens me that this profit is turned at the expense of the souls and spiritual condition of others. As always, your commentaries and information are valuable and appreciated. | ||
| john_r_jones (john_r_jones) Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
ulyankee, of interest to you possibly. Maranatha started in Paducah at 2500 Washington St. as the Maranatha House. It was a non-profit out of a California based organization I thnk called World Missions. There were people in California who had supposed oversight and some discord arose and the ministry broke off from them in one of the marathon elder meetings. Also around the time of the breakup in Gainesville the local church had bought an undeveloped parcel outside of G-ville with money coerced from members in the most hell-bent arm twisting buiding fund in known history. A fountain and flag poles were erected in the woods right off I-75 as a proclamation to the world of our collective stupidity. A source of amusement for the UF greeks-the fountain was constantly foamed and the flags stolen. Coincedentally the contractor for the new building was the same contractor who built the house. We could go into the house deal but... Some goob would show up with a plan for a seven sided building that God had given him and it was off to the races. I had to take the ministry administrator to a job site in Oklahoma where a church building was being constructed by one of my clients that was eight sided. The project civil engineer with a fifth of scotch on his desk took one look at the plans and exploded in a stream of coloful invective as to the foolishness of considering such an idea. Fabricating the steel would have been an expensive nightmare. Fortunately the building never came to be. I know the west coast guys and others were watching this go on and were planning a coup who could blame them really. The fountain and flag poles were bulldozed, contractors and suppliers were salivating at the prospect of getting their hands on our money because we spent it like water. John | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.1.75.62 |
John, thanks, yes I am interested. I was aware of the California history but didn't include it initially b/c I was more concerned with the "formal" corporate beginnings of Maranatha. The main reason why I started putting the timeline together in the first place was to trace the corporate history through the present day and especially to see what was going on in the "gap" between 1989-1994. My guess is that a coup took place, though I'm not sure the West Coast coup you mentioned was the one that actually happened b/c others seemed to have been involved. Perhaps it was a number of them that ended up turning into an outright revolt against Weiner. When I first started researching this thing, I thought that maybe the break up was planned in advance, and I still believe that the seeds of it were planned, but planned by who? I no longer think it was a directive from on high but it was an attempt by other elders/leaders to "save" Maranatha not only from Bob Weiner but also from its own reputation. And there are a few former Maranatha leaders who in the ensuing years have proven themselves more than capable of pulling something like that off by repeating the process with other churches, church networks, and even companies. Some people have stayed loyal to Bob and Rose Weiner, Rusty Russell, Nick Pappis, etc. over the years, particularly the mini-me Maranatha in place in the upper midwest... some have stayed independent or went under some other "covering"... but it appears that the majority of what used to be Maranatha is what is today Every Nation, at least as far as leadership and ministries are concerned. They have many of the key former Maranatha churches, many of the key leaders (minus those still affiliated with Weiner of course), many of the old subministries like CFC, YLF, Reel 2 Real... blessings, ulyankee | ||
| redrover (redrover) New member Username: redrover Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 71.111.142.21 |
ulyankee, I'm a survivor of the cult Maranatha. I found your original post on the history of Maranatha while researching the group. I'd like to add a little more info to the time line. Before founding the South African Maranatha church, Bill Bennot was the pastor of Maranatha in Albuquerque, New Mexico, along with his wife Consuelo (Connie). The church was located at the University of New Mexico in a former frat house on fraternity row. At the time, Bennot's assistant pastor in Albuquerque was a David Whitehead, who also ran the music group. William Stephenson preceeded Bennot as pastor. I do not know who succeeded Bennot after he left for South Africa. I believe Whitehead went with Morning Star after the Maranatha "breakup." Shortly before I left the group they were announcing the possibility of Bennot going to South Africa. It was very interesting to read this time line and learn what has happened since then. Thank you for all the hard work. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.152.158.72 |
Hi Redrover, welcome thank you for your input, many of here are survivors also. You may also look on Rick Ross site under forums families of cults. This all about Maranatha . There are many documents that are first person; including this time line posted by Ex-cult.(also a former member) That persons inventory is extensive ! Good hunting} | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 177 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.212.35.118 |
Redrover, thanks for the info! Yes, David Whitehead is with what is today Every Nation... he went to KPIC, was a director of Campus Harvest, and is now a pastor at Morning Star New York. It appears based on his MSNY bio that he was a pastor in Maranatha for the five years prior to the "break up." http://www.msny.org/about/staff/whitehead.html Based on this plus your info, it looks like Bennot was Albuquerque's pastor until 1985 or so. I have a 1984 MCM staff directory and I'll see if Bennot is listed there. Thanks again for the heads up! blessings, ulyankee (Message edited by ulyankee on July 09, 2005) | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Intermediate Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 128.194.115.135 |
What happened to the posts dated after June 21st? | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 201 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
I can only speak for my own posts... one poster deleted his posts, and since my responses made no sense anymore without the original posts, I deleted my responses. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) Intermediate Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.151.244.208 |
Hi all we should not be like maranatha/Msi/en. always rewriting things, It does not look good} | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) Junior Member Username: aletheia Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.39 |
Ul - in case you don't know, Greg Feste of The Malachi Foundation, is also chairman and CEO of Austin-based FesteCapital Holdings Ltd., and as of April, 2004 (?), the owner/Pres./General Manager of the AFL team the Austin Wranglers. Cf.: http://www.nojonestax.com/article.php?sid=126 | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 239 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.212.35.20 |
tx, aletheia | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.72 |
IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ALSO TALK OF TRYING TO SET UP AN ARENA FOOTBALL LEAGUE IN THE METRO WASHINGTON AREA BUT IT HAS NOT COME TO FRUITION AS OF YET. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
This is all really interesting. I'm sure there are books about this. Can anyone direct me to a credible author so I can read up? There are so many books on Mormons, Jehovah Witness and other leading cults by credible Christian authors. Please someone direct me to one. Thanks. | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Intermediate Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 143 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 128.194.115.135 |
I don't know if there is a book about Maranatha/MSN/EN and related issues. If there is, I'd sure be interested as well. So far, my reading has been on the web, either at forums such as this or at informational cult-awareness sites. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
jvas74, The closest thing to it would be What Happened to the Fire? by Lee Grady. Part of the book is about Maranatha. It's no longer in print but it's fairly easy to get a used copy through Amazon.com or other online booksellers. Also of interest may be Damaged Disciples: Casualties of Authoritarian Churches and the Shepherding Movement by Ron and Vicki Burks. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Intermediate Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 128.194.115.135 |
Hi Ulyankee - Thanks for the info on the books you listed. What is the nature of Grady's book? Is it autobiographical about his experiences or concerns with Maranatha? Just curious. Thanks again! | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Lee Grady's book is directed toward serious issues he sees in the charismatic movement in general. There is a chapter devoted to Maranatha and the Shepherding movement. It does include Grady's experience, but isn't purely autobiographical. | ||
| john_r_jones (john_r_jones) Intermediate Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
OTR, UL, I can't say that behind the scenes the books were not supported, but Steven Strang is a friend of BW's. Lee is concentrating on his newer book, and ministering in churches when I spoke with him last. Probably a Wall Street Journal type article or book from someone outside the church organization structure. The sophistication of strategy in distancing themselves from the shepherding label is obvious. Equally obvious ten years hence is the elitist mentality of the ministry evidenced in the posts of our newest apologists who've dined on the red meat of our discontent. John | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.212.35.20 |
Thanks John_R. BTW, the book I referenced was published in the early 90s, and not by Strang. It's been out of print for quite a while. I recently heard a tape of Lee Grady from late last year, in which he talked about his 40 Lies the Church Tells Women book. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| john_r_jones (john_r_jones) Intermediate Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 170 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Lee is employed by Strang, as are a number of other former Maranathans who were faithful not in the sense that they were elitest, but that they were truly diligent srevants. He sent a copy of that book in the early 90's while I was doing my talk show. I don't want to talk-gossip about what transpired then or now at that conglomerate because of my friends there-but the book wasn't supported. Lee has made some unpopular stands as the magazine editor and put his convictions up for ridicule, dicey as we all know with the church crowd. John | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 273 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.212.35.20 |
thanks John_R... I've noticed this in many of his recent columns... does not always jive with some of the "peace and safety" stuff one tends to hear in the charismatic movement or even in Charisma. For example, a few issues back the cover story was on spiritual abuse and Christians leaving church, and the cover article's consensus was that even though Christians may have valid reasons to leave, for the most part they're church hopping and need to get back to church. Grady's column that month seemed more supportive of those who leave... included some of the issues we discuss in this forum. There have been some comments made in other recent issues of Charisma about the amount of control in the present-day discipleship movement. I can imagine that he must walk a fine line though... there's only so far he can go and so much he can say or he'd be out of a job, imho. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Help me to understand. You are not against the Pentacostal/Charasmatic movement. Like A/G,COGIC, Church of God and other tounge talking, hands laying, excited by their faith kind of churches. Your biggest beef is these "Authoritarian" churches that is "abusing" their "disciples". I want to truly understand your position. Because some of these books you're directing us to seems to be more anti-charismatic (Don't believe the baptism in the Holy Ghost w/evidence of speaking in other tounges) than anything else. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
jvas74, I am not a cessationist, if that is your question. I am currently an active member of a charismatic church, and have experienced the gifts and work of the Holy Spirit in my life and have witnessed it in others... This isn't restricted just to tongues but also prophecy, healings, etc. My father in law is a long-time Church of God (Cleveland) pastor who I respect and love deeply. BTW, he discerned serious problems with our former church and was praying that we would leave. I didn't find this out until we were in the process of leaving though. He's been a huge support to me personally in this. Lee Grady is also still very much a part of the charismatic movement - he is the editor of Charisma Magazine. So that book is not anti-charismatic at all!!! However, I do think that not all in the Pentecostal, Latter Rain, and charismatic movements have consistently exercised discernment because not all things that appear to be of the Holy Spirit really are. There have been prophetic words spoken for example that have not come true or don't agree with Scripture. This has been true from the time of Acts forward. Also, the demonized girl in Acts spoke truth, but not of the Holy Spirit but another spirit, which the apostles discerned and cast out. Scripture does say to test all things and hold fast to what is good. We are not to despise prophecy out of hand but test it first. I hope this answers your question about where I personally stand on the works and gifts of the Holy Spirit. :-) blessings, ulyankee | ||
| moose (moose) Member Username: moose Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.196.246.162 |
jrj, Why was Grady's book not supported? Any specific reasons? While there are issues on which I differ with Grady, I believe the book to be accurate and fairly balanced and though Grady willingly names names he, if anything, goes somewhat easy on those who have blatantly used, abused, misused and preached another gospel, IMHO. jvas74, It might help if you actually obtain the books referenced and read them before commenting. Grady's book's full title is What Happened to the Fire?, Rekindling the Blaze of Charismatic Renewal. The back cover summarizes with certain points from the book such as: Pride in spiritual gifts Hyper-mysticism, gullibility and lack of discernment Shallow theology and flimsy biblical interpretation Spiritual abuse and heavy-handed leadership Exaggerated claims of healings, miracles and manifestations "My prayer is that God would purge us of all these things, so that the Holy Spirit can have His way. May God ignite a new fire in our midst and grant us the fresh power of Pentecost." "If Pentecostals and charismatics intend to assume a more visible leadership role in the Body of Christ, we must first put our own house in order." - J. Lee Grady Grady is anything but anti-charismatic. Published in 1994, Grady addresses the "doctrines" of submission and "shepherding" while noting "it became clear that these beliefs had caused much emotional damage among Maranatha's members" and "the ministry left a trail of wounded people. Abuses ranged from absurd to painful." One absurd example was overweight people were threatened with excommunication if they didn't get in shape. "...anyone who balked at the idea of "total commitment" to the group was judged guilty of harboring a spirit of rebellion. Anyone brave enough to ask questions was accused of having a demon of intellectualism. Those courageous enough to leave the group were considered spiritually inferior." And while, "yes, people can change," it is impossible to ignore the history of EN/MSI and the connections and leftover effects with/from Maranatha just as it is impossible to ignore the current connections and effects with/from C. Peter Wagner, NAR, NOLR, MSOG, etc.... Do any of the above issues sound familiar to recent EN/MSI refugees? Apparently.... | ||
| john_r_jones (john_r_jones) Intermediate Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Moose, given the readership of Charisma it didn't pay to promote the book through channels. EN's publications are marketed by Strang. Lee Grady's columns on homosexuals didn't play well a few years ago even though he went to a convention in Atlanta and wasn't well treated by the gay community. I think Lee has sought to push the envelope some, you might want to read articles archived at Christianity Today about Maranatha I don't remember if he wrote any articles while on staff there. John | ||
| john_r_jones (john_r_jones) Intermediate Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Jvas, I just listened to a message Lee gave in California just recently. There he spoke of the dangers in the American church of cessationism. He also spoke of his travels overseas and how the church is fairing with nationals in those countries sans our American heavy handedness. The humility of their apostles, the large number of churches, the sheer numbers of people coming into the kingdom are astounding. He expressed concern for the well being of the American Church and our need to progress along with God and what He is doing. I believe he has a healthy perspective and I hope you are able to see it that way. John | ||
| laez (laez) New member Username: laez Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.136.251.119 |
I was led to Christ through a MSI/EN out reach at my highschool over 7 years ago. I am well educated in both world religion and religion in america and I don't see how this organization fits the label "cult". According to my studies, they fit the pentacostal charasmatic movement template like a glove. Is there another thread that explains exactly what MSI is being accused of? Thx | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) Member Username: aletheia Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.22 |
laez, welcome to this board. There is a a good article on www.christiandefense.org entitled "Sociological Cults: Morningstar International." Also, see www.forum.rickross.com (about 100 pages of testimonials, web blogs, articles, etc.). This thread (page) is for the history/timeline of Maranatha-Morningstar-Every Nation, so why don't you move over to another current thread like Part 8 (some are by topics). Peace, aletheia | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
In the US Army there is a chain of command. Those who reach the 1st authorative level are Seargants. Once put in this position some troopers let it go to their heads, hence abuse of authority. There are some who abuse it and some who respect and are honored. The military system works and should be respected. Churches that follow the "authorative" example will have leaders who let it go to their head. We should not judge the system, but the individuals who let it go to their head. Sadly some are hurt and lives are damaged from the abuse of powers (so sites like these are setup to let them vent). Their are Judas in a flock, but that should not destroy the discipleship system. My concern is many "Christian Movements" have their critics, but many critics are judging the wrong things. Many of the things said here were said about the Assemblies of God, COGIC and others. My only advice is to taste and see. Is what is being taught is biblical? Do you sense the love of God? Are you seeing people saved and delivered? Are they reproducing strong believers who are discipling new believers? Not to say churches that are not doing all of these things are fakes, they may not know. But is the disire there and are the leaderships seeking God's face. Many who stubble on this site may be confuse and they are people who are sincerely trying to help, but it just continues to cause confusion. Just like the women in the book of Acts that told the people the truth and Paul later rebuke. Her heart might have been in the right place, but she was a tool of the devil to stir up confusion. If the apostles put a stamp of approval on what she said then the people will continue to listen to anything else she might have said, yes even false doctrine. Those of you who think you are doing a justice, beware and not let experiences alone govern your opinions, but let the word of God do it for you. Those of you who are surprise by what is said do not be easily tossed and turn by every whim of doctrine. You don't who are these people on the other side of the computer. They hide behind the names the make up, but you don't know where their heart is. Some where hurt, some are sincere and some are jealous. Who knows maybe they lost members to this movement and are furious with them. Some might even be wolves in sheep clothing trying to divide any "Church Movement". Witches are known to be in churches. You don't even who I am, but I'm like any one else sharing their opinion. I'm here either to cause division or unity. And of course the choice is yours. You might be in a church that is not for you, then God has a place for you. Do not let your experience of one church, shape your opinion of another "Church Movement". I was part of the Assemblies of God for 10 years, but I sense God's leading to another church. This was very hard since I developed strong relationship at the A/G church. But my pastor granted me his blessing and so I and my family left to this church. Later I found out that they were part of MSI, but that did not change anything. I found their church structure to be biblical and people are getting saved, delivered, set free and discipled. I'm not part of any leadership of the church (I was in top leadership in the A/G church), I'm just a member of a "turn the world upside down" church and yes they are part of MSI or Everynation. I have nothing bad to say about the A/G church and I'm still friends with the members there, especially the pastor of the church. Now you judge. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) Junior Member Username: annelewis Post Number: 49 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.154 |
Jvas, glad to hear you are doing so well and prospering in the place God has put you. If you are willing to hang in with us rather than do seagull ministry* (fly in, make noise, dump on everyone and fly out) I think you will see that many here are hurting, some are trying to make sense of what happened to them in a safe and Christian context and others are trying to encourage the rest. Do people cross the line and say things that probably shouldn't be said about MSI/EN? Sure. I probably have myself. But I attribute that to human fallibility rather than occultic influence. * modified from Ken Blanchard's seagull leadership explanation | ||
| emmaean (emmaean) New member Username: emmaean Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 68.211.156.176 |
jvas- You have a good heart. It shows through in your words. Someday you will be led to leave. If you insist on following your heart and the Lord's guidance, you will not be able to say, "I have nothing bad to say about the EN church and I'm still friends with the members there, especially the pastor of the church." Your future 'original intention' might even be to make another smooth and friendly transition to another type of church in God's universal church. (Like you did from A/G to EN.) But, if you insist upon leaving, the way you will be treated by the leadership will make such a smooth change impossible. You will literally have to wrench yourself and your family away. That is the system. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
I SEE YOUR POINT POINT JVAS74 AND IT'S A GOOD ONE BUT THAT'S SPELLED SERGEANT. I USED TO BE A MAJOR. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
THANKS THANKS MAJOR FOR THE CORRECTION. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
 | ||
| romans122 (romans122) New member Username: romans122 Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.110.165.97 |
jvas74, I pretty much agree with Emmaean. I would add that I believe you'd have a slight chance of leaving with blessing, depending on circumstances. If the circumstances have anything to do with your questioning the teachings/practices at MSI/EN, most likely you'll experience what Emmaean describes above. I have never been a member of MSI/EN. I have visited Church services there numerous times, attended several Women's conferences, and attended MSI/EN social functions because my daughter has been a member for nearly 7 years. When I heard and saw things that just didn't seem to line up with God's word, I told myself - so what? Look at all these smiling young people not drinking and drugging. Over the years I heard of people leaving the church. My daughter would often tell me of their rebellious nature, or they wanted to date so they had to leave the church. When I finally asked her if anyone ever left with blessing, she said "it does happen, but not very often." I finally began to open my eyes when one of my friends (a MSI/EN member) told me of her daughter's pastor turning his back on her when he couldn't get her to accept it was the MSI/EN way or the highway. I still get tears when I remember her story. I told her then, "that's exactly the kind of unloving behavior that turns non-believers away from wanting God in their life." Shortly after, another friend (not a MSI/EN member) turned me on to some websites and this forum was one of them. I finally came to admit, MSI/EN is too far away from God's word as I understand it. I write all this because it seems as if you have some doubts. Don't deny God in you for man's sake. ANY man. If you only hear God in your MSI/EN experience, enjoy his promise of peace. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 116 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
JVAS74: IN THE MILITARY YOU LEARN TO PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL, BUT YOUR ANALOGY WAS AN ACCURATE ONE ESPECIALLY IN REGARD TO PEOPLE IN THIS ORGANIZATION ABUSING AUTHORITY. SOME OF THE PROBLEMS OF THE EARLY DAYS OF MARANATHA WERE THE YOUTH AND INEXPERIENCE OF IT'S PASTORS AND "ANNOINTED" LEADERS. I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS FOR IT'S DEMISE IN THE EARLY 90'S. SUBSEQUENTLY I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A CHURCH SINCE THEN WHERE I HAVE OBSERVED THIS BEHAIVIOR. THIS PLACE REALLY TU | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
RNED ME OFF TO ORGANIZED RELIGION. | ||
| believer (believer) New member Username: believer Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 64.171.252.202 |
I have been a member of MSI for 10 years and now am also a part of ENM. I understand that many of you have been hurt or offended by people in MSI/ENM. Were you hurt by specific individuals who used their "spiritual" authority inappropriatley, or by the organization as a whole? The reason why I ask is because I was severely confused by this message board; specific individuals in MSI/ENM have absolutley changed my life and directed me more towards serving Jesus rather than some type of cultic beliefs. If anything MSI/ENM has helped me to live a more Christ-centered lifestyle that is focused on the word of God. I was shocked to hear about people that so deeply believe that MSI/ENM is a cult. I haven't had that experience. I have been a part of things in my past that I am not proud of but once I disassociated myself from those things I don't feel that they define who I am today. Marantha may have had a few rotten apples "leaders" but that doesn't mean that MSI, now called, ENM is a cult because the founding leaders of this organization use to be a part of the "separate" entity called Maranatha. I respect the fact that several of you might sincerely be hurt but understand that MSI/ENM is doing awesome things for Christ in the world today and I know of many specific people who have been saved from Hell because of people in this ministry who reached out to them. I have a B.A. in Theology, which doesn't make me a genius, but I sure know how to define a cult and MSI/ENM is not one. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
I experienced a relationship & religion. When I became a Christian, my whole life changed. I was radical. I shared Christ like crazy with people everyday, in fact I felt weak or even disappointed if I missed a day. I had inate understanding that Christians were godly and care about the world so much to see it saved. I thought Christians read their bible and prayed with enjoyment all the time. They hungered to see people changed by the power of God as they were. Then I had a reality check. I heard of church problems and could never picture people in the church causing strife, but only the devil causing division. When I was placed in leadership and deaconship, I saw and heard shameful things. I lost my ferver and became religious (I lost my 1st love). I replaced my ferver relationship for a empty religion, and pious attitude. Having religion is not wrong, having the relationship is not wrong. There is a place where true religion and true relationship with God meets. It's in the truth. I had to face the truth of my current actions and no longer deny God's call to me. I surrendered all to go to a place where I am discipled, accountable, and loved. I found it in my current home church. I no longer hide behind a mask. I'm here to share my testimony in midst of you. You who are confused, you must know there are two sides to a coin. I'm telling you the side I'm currently experiencing with MSI/EN church. And it's great! By the way since we're judging organizations past, lets hear something about the British, French and of course the good old USA. Their goverments committed horrendous crimes in the past and some of their people today are still, they should be destroyed. Now how foolish does that sound? Think about it. Now you judge. (This is my trademark phrase anyone that uses it must pay me.) | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 119 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
I'M NOT SAYING THAT MSI/ENM IS A CULT SINCE I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE IN AGES, ONLY THAT IT A DERIVATIVE OF ONE, FORMERLY MARANATHA. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) Member Username: annelewis Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.115.216.168 |
Jvas, I think a lot of people here have experienced the side of the coin you are on. It's when the coin flips that there's a problem. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
I remember couple of incidents while in Steve Murrell church. One time after the service, a man run up to Steve Murrell and start rebuking him for his preaching, telling him how horrible it was. While al these pastor sorrounding Steve looked on and angry at this man. Steve answered , "Maybe you are right ". The filipino pastors were surprised at Steve's humility. Another incident that happened was there is another man went to Steve Murrell's office. And nobody can stop this man, he just went in, the secretary could not even stop him. He demanded to know what happened to the money he and the church people donated. Steve sat him down and told him. In the philippines, if you want the church to open the books, they will. They even tell you how much was collected and how much was spent and were used. I remember another incident with a church leader, I dont want to mention her name, but she was fired when people complained about her abusive behavior toward the people. Her legalism caught up with her. She yells and pressured me and the people to get people saved, she literally will walk with you to the campus , overseeing how to get people saved. Rebuked and correct people how to pray also. I was a member there for 7 years. BUT I came to america thinking that maranatha are all the same. Instead it was the exact opposite. My former pastor is Phil Bonasso. I was a member for 10 years. One thing I can tell you, the stuff thats going on here would get them fired long time ago in Steve Murrell's church. That includes misuse of finances. And anybody who even has the guts to ask are told to leave the church. There is no such thing as Christ centered church in Phil Bonasso church. Its all Man - Centered church. I have then left and tried different MSI churches, I left , seeing its all the same. Control, abuse, dead churches. I gave up. Finally I called my sister and ask here which church should I go to, who are Steve Murrell's friends. She referred me to a church, I have been there for almost 5 years now. And still loving it. Its almost like Steve's church. So if anybody asked me about a good church, one thing I always tell them AVOID MSI/EN churches ! And refer them to good churches here in california. MSI/EN churches DO act like cults. Their practices are unbiblical. For ten years in Phil Bonasso church , I was blinded, I did noticed that Phil rarely opens his bible to preach. I noticed Rice brookes also rarely opens his bible to preach, just rambling of nonsense stuff. Yet they praised each other how they can preach without studying the scriptures or even prepare for sunday service. And then also brag about how much people are getting saved , I was told hundreds by Brett Holmann. And I looked around , they are are lying. The church has not grown for ten years I was here. Nobody geting saved. its a lie that has been pass to one MSI church to another. The church has been 120 people for ten years. more or less. Are people actually getting saved ? yes in Steve Murrell's church, by the hundreds. and Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes adopted it for themselves. I stop living in a fantasy world. My last word here is this, if you chose to be blinded by MSI/EN and live in deception, so be it. BUT Do ask them to open the books. Particularly World Partner. Ask what happened to you donation. Hopefully that will wake some people up. And you will see the other side of the coin. | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) Member Username: aletheia Post Number: 92 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.39 |
Ginger1, welcome to this board. Thanks so much for writing your courageous and informative post, and taking a stand for truth and integrity (honesty) in Jesus' Name. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Now I'm flipping the coin back. My (EN) pastor exhaustively uses the scriptures when preaching or teaching (maybe too much, atleast he uses great examples and testimonies). People are getting saved and discipled. And in 7 years, our church has went from 200 members to 2000 plus and reaching to 3000. Not that numbers has anything to do with it, or does it? Check out Acts after Peter preached in the beginning. It's sounds like you beef is with the other two guys and not Steve. Well Steve can't be all that great if he cannot even discern how abusive the other two are. You know, birds of a feather... But hey, I sure you have family members that you're not too proud of either, doesn't make them any less family. Remember Joseph. But I'm happy you found a church home ginger1, where your growing in the faith and teaching others to grow. Now let go of them and forgive their abuse and misuse. It eats away on your spirit. Don't do it for them, but for yourself. I had to. Now you judge. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
THERE ARE A LOT OF HYPOCRITES IN THE CHURCH! there are a bunch outside the church too. SO WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!? forgiveness REDEMPTION! anything else? | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Jvas, Steve maybe not that great, but you have to remember just a few years back, during one of the Los Angeles Conference, he publicly rebuke Phil Bonasso of his legalism , love of money , greed and materialistic. This is Steve's spiritual family and HE ADDRESSES IT. Steve sees things as it is. He never say move on and forgive and forget Like all current MSI member does. Because they refused to address the problem. It look like you rather sweep things under the rug and pretend that its not happening. Your church maybe great and all that. Good for you. Its great you have moved on from the past hurt. But me I will not be a hypocrite and pretend thats its not happening and kept living on Fantasy Island. And yes, I have moved on and hopefully you wont be upset because I spoke the Truth . Especially when I specify World Partner. Ask whats happening to your donation, ask them to open the books, or be like all good MSI/EN members you rather lived in Fantasy Island and pretend its not happening. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
aletheia , I forgot to mention that Steve Murrell is currently addressing the issue of control and spiritual abuse in MSI/EN, he is in a better position to do it than any of us. So just pray for him. He is seeing the control in MSI/EN. I think he entitled it whats a good discipler and whats a bad discipler , this was last year. I know he preach it again recently. so Just pray for him to keep preaching it. | ||
| actually (actually) Member Username: actually Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.18 |
GG, welcome back, we've missed you! I hope things are still going well with you and that you are moving from glory to glory. I'm glad you're mentioning financial accountability because you're right, in Asia, Africa and Europe the EN churches are open about their finances. In some of the US churches this is true too but not in all and that bothers me. I support GG in this - if you are in an EN church that isn't open about its finances, please ask the pastor (respectfully) if you can see the books. If you tithe and give offerings, I don't see any reason why you should not know where that money is being spent. It could be a great encouragement to the congregation to see where you are sowing your finances. It also allows you to add your faith to your money in a meaningful way and it gives an added level of accountability to church leadership which is good. God Bless, have a great day everyone | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.13 |
Actually, Your questioning of finances would have gotten you labeled as a person with a problem with money and a problem with the authority that God put over you in my old church. Yes - from what I experienced - here in the US, you would be considered a backslidden rebel. In the new apostolic reformation, finances are the responsibility of the leadership only and giving from the congregation should be undesignated. Once given to God through the authority He placed over you, it should no longer be the concern of the giver. I appreciate you position on this. Is it the position of your church leadership? I am sure your church gives at least a tithe to the EN leadership. Does your church leadership have access to information on how this is spent? | ||
| actually (actually) Member Username: actually Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.18 |
Hi lc I believe you, I know you went through this when you left your previous church. But I would still ask the questions (and I encourage others to do so). It's better to know where your church stands so that you can assess the situation and do something about it. If your church labels you a rebel for asking (again, in a respectful way) about the finances then for me that is a warning sign. They may not respond in anger though. They may be happy to show you the books. I think a lot of churches simply don't realise that people are interested (and let's face it, not a lot of people are interested and that's fine). Alternatively, the leaders could give you a good Biblical reason as to why they do not disclose finances. Perhaps I'm wrong on this (and if anyone does hear a good Biblical reason, please do share it here, I'd like to know). The thought that finances are solely the responsibility of the leaders is not common throughout the new apostolic reformation - if it was, why would so many churches freely disclose this info? It seems instead to be an individual church decision. So individual congregations have the right/responsibility to decide on their church policy. Your other question is a good one and I have asked it myself. I was told where our church's tithe to EN was spent but I haven't seen that particular financial statement myself. It is something I'm following up. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) Junior Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
I understand that pastors salaries take up most of the tithe money. This would be in standing with the false belief that the pastors are the Levitical Priesthood mentioned in Micah 3:16. Tithing is a church custom and not a New Covenant principle which calls for far more than a tithe. Tithes are nothing more than membership fees for a church. I understand that in your particular EN church the pastors demanded a pay increase from the 2ic when they found out just how much the SP was getting each month. I for one believe that tentmaking is a humbling and neccessary requirement for most professional pastors. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) Junior Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Actually, When you have seen the books let us know. | ||
| actually (actually) Member Username: actually Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.18 |
Hi speakword Was your previous post (no 41) for me, lc, or just to anyone in general? And just in case it was unclear, I have seen the books for my church - they are shown at the AGM each year - it's the 10% that goes to EN that I only have verbal info on. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Hi Actually, I wont be staying so long. I am going to be busy again. I come here once in a while. I know that ALL MSI/EN churches tithes to the top leadership. I am particulaly interested how much money your churches was sent to the U.S. AND Where did they spent it. After my experiences in Phil Bonasso church, I do not trust him in regards to finances. And now its the Los Angeles church who handles all the MSI/EN finances. Do not take their word for it. He is known to say one thing and do the other. Keep asking if Los Angeles church can sent all those financial info to your church. And do post tell us what happened to the 10% your church has sent to U.S. By experience , people who asked were slandered and they all left the church. Some were ignored hoping people would stop asking. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
aletheia, one thing I'm not sure of though is whether the US ENP (based in Tennessee) is operating under the Filipino corporate entity OR is operating under either the ENC or ENM corporate entities in the US. Every Nation Productions could have even filed a foreign Certificate of Authority in the US, similar to what His People did around the time of the HP/EN merger. They filed foreign Certificates of Authority to do business in the US. Those were rescinded, however, after Paul Daniel was removed as head of that ministry. But for a couple years both HP and HP Bible School had active Certificates of Authorities here in the States. ENP could do the same thing, but to date has not. | ||
| lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd) Junior Member Username: lkbk2gofwd Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Does anyone know (or able to discover) the income and salaries of the key leaders? Curious. And now, as per above, some have a fairly significant stake in a N'ville record label. Are there other instances of this type of relationship (i.e., EN leaders investing in and/or being granted ownership interest(s) in the business ventures of EN members)? Thanks, in advance. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
So money is the issue. Why are you so interested in someone elses pay? Do you share how much you get paid? Oh that's right, it's the people in leadership have to be open books. Aren't you suppose to be a open book too, so I guess you wouldn't mine someone coming up to you and ask how much you make? So you're really concern with finance that's your busybody thing. Don't get me wrong, if you don't trust the leadership "God put you under" then by all means ask them. You know that it's really you don't trust God as much as you think you do. It's the same thing clothed differently. Adam said to God "The women you gave to be with me, cause me to eat the fruit" Check out the statement, in ACTUALality he was blaming God not the women. Mankind try to be so slick in their accusations. Here's a couple of things I learned. I use to feel like I was getting rip off when I went to a car repair place. It put so much pressure on me and bother me when I needed some repairs. I learned if I truly trust God, he had my back. Of course if I definitely knew something was amiss, I would confront it. Now I have no problems when I get my car repair, because I know God has my back. He said "I will repay". Really think about it. Someone right now is taking advantage of you, but you don't know it. It doesn't bother you does it. And this problem is fixed and you still didn't know it. God took care of it. He's taking care of tomorrow's problem before they reach you. You may see it infront of you, but you better not do something. Because you will interrupting his sovereignty. Remember you are in His hands, no one can pluck you out. Don't you believe he's bigger than the boogie man? Or whatever. Instead of losing your peace. Pray for your pastor and leadership. Don't let the devil steal your joy, because when he does you are weak and so is your faith. Joy is the peaceful knowledge that God is in control. Now when you become... Let me not go there. Now here is the second thing I learned about finances. Some of you "scholars" try not to bend or twist what I'm going to say. Ok here it goes. I used to be concerned what was going on with the funds I gave for missions. When I worked for a church I knew the money given for mission was not used for missions. Sometimes something else was more crucial. Of course you hear we will give a big offering next month for missions. Sometimes it happen and other times it did not. I felt that the pastor at times was a liar, but I do know his heart was right. Ok, so I struggle with this, until one day... I'll finish next time. I've got to go. (Don't you hate cliffhangers) Oh yeah, NOW YOU JUDGE. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) Intermediate Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 199 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.148.234.183 |
Hi jvas, You seem to thread over so much logic, in many threads, here on fact net. Please make a list , so we can all address these various concerns; if you are serious about a reply in good faith; thank you} | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Thanks titus, That scripture really enforces my point of letting God handle it. (In case your wondering, read the whole chapter) Your the best. Now you judge. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Oh yeah titus. HOW MUCH YOU MAKE!? Never mind. I'm too busy working out my salvation. 100, 101, 102..., whew I need a break. Now you judge | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 345 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.13 |
"Aren't you suppose to be a open book too, so I guess you wouldn't mine someone coming up to you and ask how much you make?" I had no choice in this matter. When I got a new job a pastor asked me how much I was making. I told him in confidence. At the next leadership meeting, he told everyone. At my next trip to church, many people came up to me and told me they heard how much I was making... My book was opened. By the way, I got a lot of missions support letters that year. I still get missions support letters from people. Also, at my old MSI/EN church, they did head count of the congregation every week. Jvas, I guess my point is that you are preaching a double standard. I personally don't believe that holding an organization accountable for how they spend your tithe is a lack of trust. I see it as good stewardship. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Jvas,you said I used to be concerned what was going on with the funds I gave for missions. When I worked for a church I knew the money given for mission was not used for missions. Sometimes something else was more crucial. Of course you hear we will give a big offering next month for missions. Sometimes it happen and other times it did not. I felt that the pastor at times was a liar, but I do know his heart was right. Ok, so I struggle with this. This is illegal and the goverment can shut down a church because of this. And your pastor can be arrested . Since this is against the Law. lkbk2gofwd , I will answer your question in due time. I need to get an advice first before I do. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Ginger relax this was a long time ago in a little city in the South. Thank God you wasn't on the staff. God is now using that pastor in a bigger city and he has grown since then. I bet you did something illegal and never got caught. You was born in sin, you know. Thank God your not God. He realize his mistakes and moved on. I will continue my cliffhanger, next time. Now you judge. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
javas, there is a fine line between doing illegal things and being born in sin. Its not illegal to be commit adultery but it is illegal to shoplift. Being a good steward and blind trust is two different things also. I have a blind trust toward God. But I do not have a blind trust toward God's leaders. Steve Murrell knows this, thats why he open the books so people can trust him. He does not demand people to just blindly trust him, in fact he does not believed in it. Leaders in the church have to proved that they can be trusted. The bible said there are weeds and wheats sown together. And he knows very well that includes top leadership. Only in american MSI/EN teaches you to blindly trust the leaders. AND equalizing trusting the leaders means trusting God. Its not even scriptural. Paul even said to TEST THEM... | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 347 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
jvas, Interesting that you took no interest in my comment about the double standard. you said "I bet you did something illegal and never got caught." My dad once told me that a bank robber justifies his actions by saying to himself "everyone would do it if they could"... It seems that humans assume that others are no better than themselves when it comes to character. Maybe that is why EN leadership was so intent to identify "issues" in members of their congregation. So, that is your defense of a pastor doing an illegal act... you probably have done it too... wow. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Jvas, I forgot to answer your question. NO, I never did anything illegal, I have sinned against God but nothing illegal against the law of the land. Never shoplift, never smoke a weed ,never even seen one, I don't even drink maybe a sip once a year on Christmas, never smoke..never slept around nor fool around ,heck I even put back the shopping cart because I know God is watching me and yes I was a laughing stock at school for being too good. | ||
| lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd) Junior Member Username: lkbk2gofwd Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.13 |
Friend Jvas, (Is that short for JiveA...?) To display my newly acquired southern lexicon, "Whew, buddy. You're chasing tails the old dog don't even have, much less has ever wagged." [Ahem] Well, then. May I ask you a simple question? Assuming the answer is in the affirmative, here goes. Does your bible say that, "the love of money is the root of (all sorts of) evil?" Mine does. Seeking to understand financial structures based on pure motives is godly wisdom, plain and simple. And, I should like to note that you have no basis or information whatsoever to assume that I am fretting about this matter, have impure motives or that I'm not trusting God in the realm of finances. Judge not, kind Jvas, and certainly not now. Contempt before the fact is a sign that something is amiss in the heart chamber of our would be judge. When I interact with a company - new client, as an investor or what have you - I want to know who makes what in the organization. How dollars are allocated says a great deal about priorities. I learn who and what is valued and to what degree. I never have trouble getting this data from companies that exist to make a profit. Why, then, should a non-profit, especially a Christian ministry or church, have a problem with such disclosures? Why, indeed. If there is nothing to hide, as we have heard is the case with Pastor Steve, then they will lay the books open for anyone to see. In fact, many non-profits report financials to entities that monitor such things in the interest of full public disclosure and accountability. Does EN participate in any such association...? Would I be correct to assume that you think for-profit companies should be held to a higher standard of accountability than ministries? Posh! I doubt even you would be able to utter such rubbish. Now, as I'm starting to close (which is not the same as closing, as we have heard ad nauseum in the old days), may I suggest you give this old dog a well-deserved rest. He shall not hunt again this day. And, lest I forget, I think there is no cliff hanger. (Aha! Look! There is no cliff at all!) You, good fellow, seem to joust with windmills, box the wind and run from your shadow. I asked a reasonable and biblical question. You, in response, ran gloriously amok in your effort to defend and attack. Simply, "Me thinks thou dost protest [WAY] too much..." Now #2, dear Jvas, let us one and all be judged by our deeds and not this prattle. So too, and by multiples, for the leaders and teachers of God's little ones. Fondly, -LkBk2GoFwd | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) Member Username: annelewis Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.154 |
I offer the following for those who are trying to resolve the financial accountability question in their own minds. I would hope that this would be used as secondary resources rather than the foundation of a decision and that a scriptural study. -------------------------- The following is excerpted from an interview with Thomas Trask, the superintendant of the Assemblies of God. I thought he had some interesting thoughts about money. Who should determine how the finances of the church are disbursed? Trask: First, the pastor needs to know how money is being spent, but he should not be handling the finances. A church needs to require two signatures on each check. If the pastor is one of the designated people to sign the check, then he needs to have somebody elsethe treasurer or another board membersigning as well. There must be an accounting for the churchs finances at the monthly board meeting. There also needs to be an annual audit so the people know that the money they gave was handled properly and that there is financial accountability. This honors the congregation. It isnt our money; its their money. It isnt our church; its their church. When everything is done above board, there are no secrets. Openness in handling finances is healthy for a congregation. http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200401/200401_16_interv.cfm The Orlando Statement is also worth considering. Background info on the Orlando statement. Evangelical Councils for Financial Accountability's Seven Standards | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Just like Shrek, you guys got some layers. In regards to double standards. A parent with children has different standards, but they still loved them. As a parent you are privy to everything in their life, but children are not privy to everything in your life until... Annelewis thanks for the info and I'm in total agreement. I'm a stickler for accountability. And Shakespeare, now you play nice.  Now you judge. | ||
| lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd) Junior Member Username: lkbk2gofwd Post Number: 44 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.13 |
"And Shakespear, now you play nice." Oh, but be most assured, gentleperson, I am. From our humble chair, restraint is being exercised in a measure true full, lest temperance erode and find us doing otherwise. Now, then. What say we of your chair? Were you to embrace reason and balance in your discourse, one could imagine this tongue [fingers] becoming magically less acerbic. Though, it is true, that hardly a drop can be found thereon even now. Nonetheless, 'tis true and still, that a fraction of a drop may be measured and applied for just the appropriate occasion. And, now and ever, time will tell whether now or later. Later or now. You pocess the power of choice and dictate the tone of our response. Use it wisely, as we know you shall. Zya, /s/ Sir Wm. Goforward PS Take the subject matter seriously, but not thyself..."be what you is, not what you is not. Folks who do this are the happier lot." | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Jvas, you said A parent with children has different standards, but they still loved them. As a parent you are privy to everything in their life, but children are not privy to everything in your life until... Thats true. but Pastors nor leaders are NOT our parents... And those who do act like this have cross the line spiritually . Its one of Jesus teachings... For PAGANS EXERCISE THEIR AUTHORITY OVER YOU BUT NOT SO WITH YOU... Its a paganistic Practice so its wrong. | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Intermediate Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.113.231.84 |
ginger1- Very well-said. I, too, believe that the leadership cross many lines in their style of authoritarian leadership. They pry into most every area of personal life, lord their authority, and mete out discipline. Many times, it seems like the purpose is to make the members feel subservient or dependent on their authority. It's really sick and dysfunctional. Even in a true parent-child relationship, once the child reaches adulthood, the dynamics of relationship change. We are to still respect parents' advice, but not be under their thumb, scrutiny, or discipline. | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Intermediate Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.113.231.84 |
As a continuation of my post above, I remember so many times when my pastor would give instruction on areas of my personal life. One example that sticks out is when my husband, who had stopped attending my church a few years earlier (he could see it as the cult it was), wanted to attend a different church with me on Sunday nights. He only wanted to be able to attend together as a family, since he would not not come back to my church and I would not leave. He didn't want to conflict with my church's services, so he selected the Sunday *evening* service of a church, since my church didn't have Sunday evening services at the time. The first time he asked me to do this, I informed my pastor, being the obedient little mind-controlled droid that I was. He adamanetly said "No!" - do not go with my husband to that other church or it would divide my devotion to my church, and besides - that other church was just a watered-down church, not a cutting edge church like ours. So I told my husband no. A few months later, he made the request again, and this time, I decided to go with him. Again, it was not conflicting with any services. My pastor found out and was irate. He first called a few of my closest friends to tell them how disappointed he was in me and how rebellious I was to disobey him. When he talked to me, he said "I TOLD YOU NO!" There were many other times like this, only a rarely "disobeyed". If he even sensed a hesitancy, he would say "Obey. Submit. I am your pastor." Geesh....I get the creeps and feel sick just thinking about the control he levelled over me and many others in my church. And I get the creeps that I actuaally did what he said. It all feels like a not-too-distant hellish nightmare sometimes, and I wonder how I ever allowed myself to get that far sucked into the madness. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Ontheroad, I'm in total agreement w/you. If your husband started attending another church, you better leave your church no matter what any pastor may say. The family is the first institution God created. He was stepping over his bounds as a pastor. It's scriptural to follow your husband leading saved or not saved. In Post No. 9 on this page, I talked about the abuse in authority. There is a structure God created in the church, without it we cannot make an impact on this earth. For those who are confused, find a church where you belong and grow. Mine happens to be a EN affiliate, whatever is yours, get to your Father's business. Now to you that is just reading these comments and not saying anything trying to make a sound decision, listen good. This site may be called "FACTNet", but it's really "My ExperienceNet" or "My OpinionNet". Leave this site and shut down the PC or Mac, get to a quiet place and ask God for guidance. There are many voices here, but you really need to hear the still small voice and get ours out of your head(Phillipians 4:6-8). He will not withhold the truth from you, if you have the living God in you He will direct your path. We are not the spiritual dead of the Old Covenant, we belong to the New Covenant sealed by the Holy Spirit. The same Spirit working a regeneration in you, use His power. Now. Now you judge. | ||
| lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd) Junior Member Username: lkbk2gofwd Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
"Use his power. Now." Wow! Did you see that?! Read it again. A more classic Maranatha, MSI/EN statement has seldom been written. Get out your conjuring robes, wave your wands and make it happen, DANG IT! Use the force, Cuke... ACK!! I think I'm conjuring a spiritual hairball. Too fuzzy to swallow in here...need water. -Back later. | ||
| another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall) Intermediate Member Username: another_brick_in_the_wall Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.245.36.101 |
Jvas74 wrote: There is a structure God created in the church, without it we cannot make an impact on this earth <<<question: where does Scripture direct this for Christians to do? Jvas74 wrote: For those who are confused, find a church where you belong and grow <<<<question: Please denote the Scripture reference(s) Jvas74 wrote: whatever is yours, get to your Father's business. <<<<question: Scripture reference? we must be "about the Father's business" is a common mantra within EN. Actually I think that is a rollover phrase from Maranatha days. | ||
| another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall) Intermediate Member Username: another_brick_in_the_wall Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.245.36.101 |
Jvas74 wrote: Now to you that is just reading these comments and not saying anything trying to make a sound decision, listen good. This site may be called "FACTNet", but it's really "My ExperienceNet" or "My OpinionNet". Jvas: It is quite alright and valid to share, speak and have opinions. Squelching the chatter is a sign of unhealthy leadership. Actually for a leader or an organization to convey to members that they should keep their opinions quiet is a red flag of an abusive structure. My reference: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (authors: David Johnson, Jeff VanVonderen). Jvas74 wrote: He will not withhold the truth from you, if you have the living God in you He will direct your path My comment: Jvas, God does not set conditions to get His business done. There is no "IF you".... God is the I AM. He will reveal His Truth and fulfill His purpose - with or without you, I or the readers on this board. | ||
| actually (actually) Member Username: actually Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.18 |
Hi jvas I've appreciated a lot of your posts and I agree with some of the points you've raised but I have to disagree with your perspective on finances. Jvas, it's not about what someone else gets paid. I don't feel the need to know exactly what the church receptionist is paid every month but what I do want to know is what percentage of the income goes to paying salaries, what percentage pays the rent, the electricity, how much goes into printing the notices etc. How much actually gets to missionaries on the field and how much is used to uplift the poor? These are important factors for me as I consider my role as steward of the finances God has entrusted to me. It's not a question of not trusting the leaders. I read my bank statement each month. Does this mean that I don't trust my bank? Of course not, if I thought my bank wasn't trustworthy, I'd move to a different bank! It's the same with my church. I do trust the leaders - if I didn't trust them, I'd move to a church where the leaders are trustworthy. But it is my responsibility to check where the finances are going. Ignorance is not bliss, it's irresponsible. You mentioned a case where funding ear-marked for missions was sometimes funnelled into another more crucial need. That is precisely where accountability becomes important. Had that church been financially accountable to the congregation, the pastor or accountant would have had to explain to the church why the money didn't go to missions. Congregations are not unreasonable and if it had been a valid need, they would probably have supported the pastor/accountant. But it is an added safety measure. When the pastor/accountant was faced with the choice of using the finances for missions or for the pressing need, he would have known - I'll have to defend this choice to the congregation - and he would have made sure that he made the right choice, knowing that he would need to account for this choice. Lkbk2gofwd and Annelewis - stunning posts, thank you for that! I know it's not always feasible to have the pastor completely removed from the financial function if a church is small but in larger churches (3 full time staff members or larger) this should definitely be possible. Certainly in ours, there is a finance department (which does not include the pastor) and a board on which the pastor has only one vote just like every other board member. And I must agree with something cymbrogi posted on another board - the meeting where the congregation hears about the last financial year of their church is one of the most encouraging meetings of the year. I always leave with a greater sense of ownership and with an appreciation for the integrity of the leaders. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) Intermediate Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 206 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.131.155.7 |
Hi actually Thank you for your posts and input. I am hopeful for you; that whatever things you want for your church can be obtained. I know about the states and i quite recommend seeing the books, actually, not a typed statement per sae. The actual books , not a second set, or the auditior or bookeeper should be made available to speak with you and answer any questions. If not all is shifting sand, so to speak.} | ||
| thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi) Junior Member Username: thecymbrogi Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.121.157.77 |
actually-- "Ignorance is not bliss, it's irresponsible." I've added that to my personal quote book. | ||
| jvas74 (jvas74) New member Username: jvas74 Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.226.162.156 |
Post No. 15 continues. I left off with "Ok, so I struggle with this, until one day... " Now this is my personal revelation, so don't knock. If it's not for you then fine. When the Lord places on my heart to give to a specific missionary or mission group I want to be certain that it will. But I remember He is the possessor of the land, the owner of cattles on ten hills and his operation is in the spiritual realm. When He lays on my heart to give and I do it in obedience to His leading, He will honor it and release the blessing to that particular missionary. God's hand is held by our unbelief, but when we act in faith-His blessings are released. For example: Let say I was in church and I heard a missionary testamony and God lays on my heart to give to that missionary a large offering ($5,000) and I place it in the offering. The next day the church gets buglarized and all money is taken. Does it mean that missionary will not get his $5,000 blessing? No, God did not need my finance, but my faith to release His blessing and that missionary will get his $5,000 in whatever manner He chooses. He just need a vessel to fufill His desire and I did it by obeying His leading. I hope you understand my example and what I'm trying to share. This set me free. Now as far as financial accountability goes. If you could not have both, which would you chose. A pastor who is financially accurate and the books are straight with no questions, but has a heart to deceive and manipulate. Or pastor who has a heart for God and know it by his teachings and his daily actions, but is not so accurate with the books (not to purposefully deceive, but a honest mistake). We elect board members to be our representative in the church and keep things in check and balances. Do you know every little thing the President is doing? No. You select members to be in Congress and Senate to take care of these issues because you trust them. If you make a mistake, then next time vote someone else. But if you want to stress yourself over every little matter then run for office. If not use your time more wisely. By the way most of my beliefs come from my personal studies and mentorship from the Assemblies of God not EN. Do you have something bad to say about them too? (I hope not.) Now you judge. | ||
| ginger1 (ginger1) New member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.226 |
Actually, you answer this one. I am tired of people trying to psyche themselves , mindless rationalization and twisted imaginations.With no scripture to back up.These are one of the reason why we left MSI/EN. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 300 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
jvas74, Since your background is in the Assemblies of God, what do you think about some of their position statements regarding: Apostles and Prophets http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4195_apostles_prophets.cfm Endtime Revival http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/endtime_revival.cfm Demon Possession of Born-Again Believers (Demonization)http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4176_possessed.cfm and Shepherding/Discipleship? http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/4174_discipleship.cfm I too consider myself, by and large, a "classical Pentecostal." The increasing disparity between what I believed as a classical Pentecostal and what I saw taught and practiced in my former church and by visiting EN speakers was one of the major factors leading to my leaving EN. I personally found these A/G position papers extremely helpful because they helped me to clarify my own beliefs and positions on these issues, with the Holy Spirit and Scripture as the ultimate guide. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
BTW, can we move this discussion to a new thread? This is taking a long time to load. | ||
| actually (actually) Member Username: actually Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.18 |
Just finishing off the finances topic, we can continue regarding the other points ulyankee mentioned on another (shorter) thread. Hi jvas I do understand what you are saying and there is a principle there that is important - God is greater than sinful man and He is able to frustrate works of evil and provide for His own. No question. If someone deliberately stole the money that you gave to God, I do believe that God will honour your faith and provide despite what the thief has stolen. Of course, we must not forget that there will be judgement on the thief - in this life and in the next. In the case of a church that is deceitful about its finances, who will be judged? Those personally involved in the theft? Certainly. Those who knew and chose to do nothing? Again, yes. Those who suspected foul play but chose to remain ignorant? Those who were charged to be their brothers keeper but who neglected that responsibility and allowed their brothers to fall into sin? Personally, I love my leaders too much to look the other way. I know that they are frail, just like me, and that they face temptations just like me. So as far as it is up to me, I hold them accountable just as I appreciate being held accountable. About pastors who are just not very good at keeping the books - who make "honest mistakes" - those pastors should realise that God gives different people different gifts. If God has not gifted the pastor in administration then that pastor should find someone who does have this gift. We are called the body of Christ for a reason - we need each other to reflect God accurately to a lost and dying world. | ||
| believer (believer) New member Username: believer Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 24.4.44.227 |
For Post number 43, if you read your Bible more and you posted dissention less, then you would know that you severely misquoted 1 Timothy 6:10, check it again and pay attention to the small details and you'll understand. Jvas, thank you for your wisdom and your attempts to be a peacemaker. This is obviously not a site that helps people heal; this site is a get together for those who need a place to bash ministries. I apologize to this user for using their username to post but I am too apalled to want to be a consistent part of this tragedy! | ||
| naledistar (naledistar) New member Username: naledistar Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 146.231.129.49 |
I'll admit first off that I haven't read this thread in its painstaking entirety...I've only skimmed it, and now I'm going to respond to certain things I've read. First of all, not all churches are unforthcoming with regard to their finances. The EN church I attend actually has a yearly meeting in which they present a breakdown of how finances were handled over the past year. I know of several other churches who do the same. Just because a handful of EN churches choose to hide their finances, that does not mean that it is EN policy to hide finance info, because it is NOT EN policy!! Do not make the mistake of confusing EN Policy with Church-Specific Policy. We are all fallable, and if some leadership has fallen, that is their loss, and not necessarily the fault of the entire church family. Furthermore, despite the fact that I appreciate my church's forthcoming(ness?) with regard to finance, the fact is that they are not responsible for answering to me. I like knowing what they do with my money, in a way it makes me feel a bit better, but in truth they don't have to tell me. Why? Because as church members, as Christians, it is our Biblical responsibility to tithe and give offerings, and God will bless us for our faith in that area, regardless of how our money is used; however, He will also take appropriate disciplinary action against those who misuse the funds we give in faith. Therefore, it is not up to us to "monitor" things, even though it is nice to do so and it makes us feel good...God is the one who monitors the actions, and blesses/disciplines accordingly. Second, I have read things about false prophecies etc etc and these comments are used to write off EN's approach to prophecy and divine witness. Two questions: first of all, if prophecy is so false, then why have so many of them come true, with frightening accuracy? Why, then, have I seen so many churches and individuals come into the prophecies given to them? You cannot write off prophecy, or use false prophecies to write off a church family, which brings me to my second question, or rather my second point about prophecy: prophecies are meant to be prayed into. You still have to do the work, you know. God grants words and prophecies, but we still have to pray into them to discern whether or not it is truly God's will, and we still have to examine them to check whether or not they are Biblical, and we also have to work towards them (pruning our characters, etc). So is the failure of a prophecy the failure of God, or the failure of man? It is YOUR PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to carefully examine your prophecies, not that of your church family, or any church family for that matter. Therefore, do not hold EN responsible. I read somewhere that an individual was upset over the "exhaustive use of Scripture in sermons". The Word of God is the only definitive source for our faith...where the world and its philosophies change constantly, His Word never changes or fails us. Therefore, I would think you'd be glad that your pastor uses so much Scripture, because it means his sermons are sound. Or would you prefer to have a pep talk? If so, perhaps church isn't the place for you. Finally, one person was talking about their daughter's involvement in the church and how she was asked to leave after not adhering to EN principles. According to the Bible, if a person is behaving in a sinful manner, they must be approached by members of the church. If they fail to change their ways, they are then to be taken to the leadership. If they still refuse to change, they must then be asked to leave the church. They are not excommunicated...they are still to be treated with love, but they are also to be properly evangelised, because they have fallen away from the lifestyle that God has outlined for us in His Word. I don't know what this girl was doing, but if she was in a place of sin, then the pastor wasn't wrong in asking her to leave...he was behaving Biblically. Any church family should act the same if they call themselves true, Biblical Christians. Don't make the mistake, like so many people in the world today, of thinking that Christianity preaches tolerance. We aren't meant to just accept people for doing whatever they like...we are called to live to a higher standard. And as for saying "no dating" to this girl, perhaps you should examine the Biblical form of dating and courtship. At my church, personally, we promote the courtship method of romance...we acknowledge that it is not the only way of attaining a happy and Godly marriage (ie: dating is another way), but we DO say that it is the best way, and the most Godly way. It is the safest way, as you have your spiritual family gathered around you to help you and guide you and keep you from making the mistakes that so many dating couples make, physically and emotionally. It's not a bad thing to have outside sources to help you discern the health of your relationship - that is important in the secular world as well (don't we get concerned when a young couple removes themselves from their friendships, and just spends all their time together?). So why not have that outside discernment coming from the church? That should be the way it is, if God and the church are truly the centre of your life. You know, you really can't write off a church family based on the behaviour of a couple of their churches. Even in the Bible, there were churches that called themselves followers of Christ, but who were living in sin...the letters address these churches and rebuke their behaviour, but without condemning Christianity. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 386 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Naledistar, Welcome. This is an old thread that has gotten to long for people with dial-up to read. Can we continue this discussion on the new thread that was started (part 9). If you could repost key concerns there, that would be helpful to the dial-up gang. Also, a little background might help. Are you currently in EN? If so, how long have you been a member? | ||
| cupatea (cupatea) New member Username: cupatea Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.169.149.213 |
naledistar, If you are indeed posting from South Africa please be aware that as you say individual churches can be fine. I think the greater issue is not the individual churches but the rot at the core which is a reflection of Ezekiel 8. From my understanding the churches in SA and the churches in Asia operate in a different spirit to those in the USA. This can be born out by reading the posts by people who have come from Asia to the USA to find that the manner in which EN operates in the USA is very different to that which they are used to. I have visited EN churches on 4 continents. Preached / spoken in all. I personally know senior leaders on the 2 other continents so I guess I can say I am in a fairly good position to see some differences. There are those in very senior leadership within EN, especially in Asia, who recognise the problems and acknowledge the heritage of the issues, but the monster is too big. While all the issues of financial intergity, ongoing and ignored sin, shepherding, etc are important, they are in reality simply symptoms of the disease not the disease itself. The bringing in of heretical doctrines from the fringe of orthodoxy, coupled with the lack of a systematic theological framework within which to place these and other 'revelations' has resulted in movement which is being kept afloat by image while the base is crumbling. And yes now I appear to come from The Netherlands. I'm not by the way  | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 196.28.38.22 |
Having been in a South African church it is clear that EN is the master and His People the servant/milk cow. | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) Intermediate Member Username: aletheia Post Number: 115 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.39 |
The bringing in of heretical doctrines from the fringe of orthodoxy, coupled with the lack of a systematic theological framework within which to place these and other 'revelations' has resulted in [a] movement which is being kept afloat by image while the base is crumbling. Well said, cupatea. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Aletheia, I am keen to understand the context that you are coming from with the prophecy you posted. You may copy me at ruffledfur1@yahoo.co.uk if you don't want to communicate directly here about it. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
I went to the Morning Star Church in Lawrence, KS for about 4 and a half years. It's interesting. So bascially the church was Maranatha, then New Hope then Morning Star. The previous pastor of the Maranatha church came back as worship pastor in about 1997. In the summer of 1994 Morning Star church in Lawrence celebrated it's 2 yr. aniversary. I started there in the spring of 94. They kicked me out in the spring of 98. | ||
| bill_mack (bill_mack) Member Username: bill_mack Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.95.34.234 |
How did they kick you out? Pleasse detail your account. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 4.244.144.68 |
I may not have all of this in the right order since it was 7 years ago. It started one Sunday morning after church when I was talking with the pastor, he suggested that I find another church cause I didn’t have many friends at the church. I asked him if I could talk with him about that and he didn’t have time and told me I could write a letter. So I wrote a letter and was very confused…I didn’t want to be kicked out of the church. So I went to church the next Sunday and during worship the pastor came up to me and said we had to talk. Well I love worship and I said not during worship. So after church that Sunday I had to meet with him and another leader in the church. I was told I could have one other current member of the church in there with me. So during the meeting they told me that I needed to repent. They didn’t tell me what I needed to repent of. I don’t remember if I wrote another letter to him or not. But that week I got a certified letter saying that I couldn’t come back to the church until I did several things. It actually said I should try some other churches. Within a few days or so I called a friend down in TN and told her about this. She then gave me the phone number for the people who had been the campus ministers at the church in Lawrence. I talked with them and they told me that I could appeal and that my pastor should have told me that and given me a phone number. So I called down to Nashville…I can’t remember if I was told to talk with Rice or Ken Dew… I had to leave a message cause they weren’t there. I got a call back about a week latter from I believe Ken Dew? saying that he had talked with my pastor and felt it best that I don’t go back. By that time I had given up on it. Sorry if that doesn’t make sense.. I tend to ramble. | ||
| 40days40years (40days40years) New member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 172.199.233.43 |
arcecat it is kind of funny how it works. I would have loved for the pastor to come to me and recommend that I should go and try out other churches that would suit me better :D, did'nt happen though. After I had been called on the carpet by the pastor for being critical of the system (I was turned in by a friend for making him feel bad with my objections to the system) I decided to leave because I knew I had to muzzle it completly now and go along with the program and would be told to leave if I exercised free speech in the future (I was running out of strikes). I slunk off on good terms by telling the pastor that the Lord wanted me to leave even though I was not sure of Gods will and felt guilty. The maranatha I belonged to was not a hardcore Maranatha however. I also had a friend in Maranatha who had a sister who would occasionly visit our services maybe once every three weeks or so. She was a Christian who went to another church but she visited us occasionly for a year or two and would even have us over to her house but eventually she was confronted by the wife of a visiting Maranatha/EN leader along with another strong willed female leader that belonged to our church. Our visitor was told that she had to choose churches, if she wanted to stay she had to be comitted more to our church. She left but was offended ofcourse. Maranatha leadership always seemed to have problems understanding what is appropriate behaviour. (Message edited by 40days40years on November 02, 2005) | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Junior Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.7 |
Arecat, "started there in the spring of 94. They kicked me out in the spring of 98." I am sure this was painful. But, I have to admit that I had a good laugh when I read this. What a bunch of jerks. They probably decided they got as much money out of you as they could before suggesting you leave. To be completely honest, getting kicked out of msi/en is probably the best thing that could happen to a member. Consider yourself lucky. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come) New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 71.0.160.46 |
question for anyone regarding the abuse trial ahead... what's the status? By the way the pastor that committed suicide? possibly? Is that the same guy featured on the EN website because they tella different story. What really happened and why did he do that? | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 161 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.200 |
Ic20 : No actually walking out without saying goodbye is better, that way you make a bigger impact. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 453 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
the_west_here_i_come, I had not heard that one of the pastors committed suicide. There were two pastors last week whose deaths were announced, which are still on their website as of today. This is *so sad* anyway, no matter what the circumstances. Can you verify, or are you looking for verification? Bartoc did inform us last week on the Abuse Trial thread that the most recent dismissal hearing will take place tomorrow (Nov. 4). blessings, ulyankee | ||
| formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor) Junior Member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.35.107.132 |
Ulyankee- Can you post the link to the page announcing the deaths? Thank you | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 454 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
arcat, not having many friends in the church could also have meant that you weren't divulging enough about yourself in order for them to properly "disciple" (control) you. I was told that I was "too isolated" - the context was that no one could find anything wrong with me to counter the fact that I was questioning the false teachings that had been brought into my church. The records showed that I was a faithful tither and giver, participated in all church activities, went through all the required membership and ministry training available up to that point, was very active and faithful in church service, obviously loved the Lord and His Word, was respectful and not divisive, etc. etc. etc. and as a result no one had anything bad to say about me. I missed a few cell group meetings for family reasons and that was about all that could be brought up. In retrospect it makes me wonder, hmm, was the problem that they couldn't point out a beam in my eye when I noticed the splinter in theirs, and that as a result what I was saying couldn't be so easily discredited as a rebellious or Jezebel spirit? I couldn't be controlled through guilt, and I couldn't be coerced (growth and promotion in my identified gifts and ministry area were also offered as a reason not to leave - didn't work either)? The corporate/legal evidence shows that the Lawrence church is *technically* not the former Maranatha church... but the people involved as well as the timing of the corporate filings show that it in essence is a continuation of the old church. As a former member of that church, is that your impression as well? | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 455 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
formermaranatha pastor - here they are. I'm going to archive the announcements as well. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come) New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 128.186.126.111 |
Dismissal? Is it going to civil lawsuits? I should have done that a while ago. Anyway any of You who have been hurt by MS go to the elijah website and look under Marsha burns word for feb 2005 and if You have the call of a watchman then read this word. It will bring comfort.. not suggesting that God called You to go through this abuse but perhaps we can feel the pain of others who have been hurt by these demonic spirits that opperate in the church. I hate to say it but the church is responsible for a lot of the world's sufferings however God can turn it around.. Hopefully a mintry of reconciliation. God bless and I will be praying for You all. You are not alone and remember God is on our side! Go to headtochrist. com and read about the ex member of Korn's testimony and his views on religion He speaks out at the very thing we faced God bless | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
ulyankee "The corporate/legal evidence shows that the Lawrence church is *technically* not the former Maranatha church... but the people involved as well as the timing of the corporate filings show that it in essence is a continuation of the old church. As a former member of that church, is that your impression as well?" I would say that the lawrence church is the old maranatha church. When I was there, the pastor and other memebers would talk a little bit about the old church but never mentioned the name. I guess when the maranatha church disbanded some members went to the church I currently go and some decided to start the New Hope church. The pastor of the maranatha church was not involved. So after a year or two the church became Morning Star. Then like I said back around 97 the former pastor of the maranatha church became the worship pastor. After I was kicked out a lady at my current church told me about the old maranatha church and it sounded like Morning Star was just the offspring of the maranatha church. In the last few years I was at Morning Star several old memebers of the Maranath church joined Morning Star. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
I've recently been thinking about how Morning Star controlled me. I wasn't doing anything wrong. I came in already a Christian, already speaking in tongues, not dating etc. So the way they controlled me was by not allowing me to be apart of things. I was never allowed to live in the girls house. I was often left out of the loop. I came from an abusive/controling family so this just seemed normal to me. So the only way that they could control me was by leaving me out and hurting me that way. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 457 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
arcecat, thank you for the info. It's important in shedding additional light on the history, particularly with regards to the K-State and KU chapters of MCM and VCM/ENCM. What happened on the corporate side is this... Maranatha Christian Church didn't dissolve in 1990 but changed its name to New Hope. A lot of the former Maranatha churches did the same thing at this time, including some that are today in Every Nation. So New Hope was just the new name for the old church. In late 1992, they let the old corporate entity lapse and then the next spring they incorporated Morning Star Christian Church - so about a year before you started going. So the church you attended was this new church, but it seems based on your experience it wasn't really a new church, just a new legal entity, if that makes sense. This is mainly a big deal as regards the campus ministries at K-State, since Maranatha lost its recognized student org status in the mid-80s, and VCM came back in I think 2001 or so, under the auspices of this "new" church which really was the "old" church. The religious student organization coordinator who was at K-State in the 80s is still there, btw... blessings, ulyankee | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
Who was the religious organization coordinator at K-State? and what did that person do? I believe I know who the people are who are running the victory group at K-State now. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
Ok so I've been doing some hunting on the net and it seems now that the Lawrence and K-Stat campus ministries are called Midwest ministries. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 459 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Rev. Don Fallon - I think he may be an ordained Lutheran minister, though his official title as a K-State employee is coordinator of religious activities. Thanks for the update on the ministry name change. The website is linked from Morning Star Lawrence's website. They are listed as a registered student group at KU's website; however, VCM is still listed as the registered student group at K-State... not Midwest Student Ministries. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
Here's the actual website for the group at K-State I found it quickly the first time but then had a hard time finding it. When I googled midwest student ministries k-state I did find a place where they are registered under the new name. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 461 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Thanks... I went back and found it too. It's listed here. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Ok, more of interest here... Midwest Student Ministries was separately incorporated in May 2005 under the same Lawrence PO Box as the church. Even though the Lawrence church still states EN affiliation on its website, it is no longer listed in EN's directory, and I also just verified with one of the campuses where Midwest Student Ministries is based that it is no longer affiliated with EN or an EN affiliated church (national affiliations are generally something that all student groups have to disclose to the campuses where they operate). Stay tuned... | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.55.112 |
The funny thing is that when you click on the link for Midwest Student Ministries on K-State's website it takes you to Every Nation's website | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
I noticed the same thing. Also when you go to Every Nation Campus Ministries' chapter search, the same person who is listed as the contact person in Kansas is also the registered agent for Midwest Student Ministries. I'm going to wait and see how this plays out, because even though I have heard from multiple sources now that the Lawrence church may be leaving EN, the verified, documented evidence is still contradictory - but I will update the timeline with what we know so far. Thanks. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.110.196 |
I noticed Newsboys listed in the history. I remember back when I was in morning star people said that DC Talk and Carman went to Bethel. Anyone know if that is still the case? | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 468 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
The last I knew, DC Talk members don't any more... I'm not sure about Carman. Other prominent musical artists at Bethel that I was aware of during the time I attended Bethel included Bryan White and the Katinas, as well as a well-known former disco diva (at least known to all who survived the 70s) who I won't name b/c my impression was that she was an attender but not necessarily a member active to the same extent as those I've named above. However, one can do some serious celebrity watching at a lot of churches in Nashville overall if one is interested in that sort of thing, which I'm generally not. The main reason I added Newsboys to the timeline is not merely b/c any of their members go to Bethel, but because they are corporately and legally entwined with EN and EN leadership. | ||
| arcecat (arcecat) New member Username: arcecat Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.124.110.196 |
I emailed my current pastor...for two reasons. 1. to find out if Morning Star in Lawrence had left the world organization and 2. to find out if my current church and Morning Star still get a long. My pastor said that in the last two months the Morning Star here had separated from the world organization of Morning Star I'm still a little bit uneasy with how my church gets along with Morning Star and that in the last few years my church has started doing more leadership classes and more cell groups. | ||
| graham4jc (graham4jc) New member Username: graham4jc Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 216.1.16.126 |
"November 1, 2001 - DC pastor and CFC board member Brett Fuller purchases a home in Chantilly, VA for $787,000. " No one who has ever bought a house large enough to fit a 9 member family in Northern Virginia (Fairfax/Loudoun County area) would ever consider this fact noteworthy. There are non-luxury 3-bedroom townhomes selling for $500k in the same area. On the larger issue, though I certainly have had personal divisions with MSI & Every Nation, there are many people in leadership within this group that have sincere hearts that love God and want very much to be leading their church wit integrity and grace. Brett Fuller is one person that stands out in this regard. If you had ever had the opportunity to get to know him you would probably conclude the same thing. I guess I would say that one shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. While public criticism of Maranatha/MSI/Every Nation might be warranted, Brett Fuller's name should not be muddied publicly in the same tone as when speaking (or "listing facts") about Maranatha/MSI/EN - and including him and his personal activity in this discussion is not warranted. And to be clear - no, I'm not a relative of his, and he is no longer my Pastor. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Intermediate Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 169 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.200 |
Graham4jc : I agree with you that his name should not be muddied. Sure he's a great person, but he was the catylyst behind the whole movement in the No.Va. area and many of the doctrinal positions he propagated were clearly wrong. History has shown us that. I find the history of MSI as he told it on the MSI website extremely misleading. For example not once was the relationship of Maranatha to MSI even mentioned, as if it never existed. Had it not been for him I don't even think that church would even exist today, especially since so many of his colleagues left after the breakup. Also to be clear, I knew him, he's not a relative of mine, and he is no longer my pastor either. | ||
| graham4jc (graham4jc) New member Username: graham4jc Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 216.1.16.126 |
titus - you ask "Why isn't he living where his constituents live?" What do you mean by that? Most of his congregants live in the Chantilly/Sterling/Ashburn area. That's where he lives. He works and lives within a few miles of most of his congregation. upcase20 - you say, "many of the doctrinal positions he propagated were clearly wrong. History has shown us that." What are the doctrinal positions that he taught that are wrong, and what is your basis in Scripture for your belief? Broad sweeping statements accomplish nothing. Folks, I had the opportunity to hear straight from Brett Fuller his opinion on Maranatha and the connection to MSI. He told me (as a bit of a history lesson when I first got to know him) that Maranatha had made many mistakes and that it turned into an orginzation that was rather controlling and manipulative. Keep in mind that he was in his early twenties when Maranatha was in existence, and barely "cutting his teeth" in ministry at the time - so lets not make it seem like he was a top leader in Maranatha. Also, he said that he truly believed that MSI was different and that the folks involved had learned their lesson with things. Maybe they didn't, but I have every reason to believe that he was sincere in his belief. And I would agree that the church in Northern Virginia would not have existed without him. He was left literally without any financial support and without any guidance when Maranatha disbanded, and he stuck it out and turned a college ministry into a flourishing congregation. To have spent time with him and hearing his memoirs of that period of time was very telling. I truly believe that if you knew him well you wouldn't criticize so freely. I certainly have my disagreements with him and some of his decisions, but after getting to know him I would never call into question his motive and/or his integrity. And I certainly wouldn't try to hang him publicly, which it seems many of you might enjoy. Like it or not, he's a brother in Christ, and I won't be "ok" with trying to build public criticism or shame to his household. That's hardly a "doctrinal position" worth propigating either. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) Intermediate Member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.210 |
Some people can't see the wood for the trees. Don't be freaked by one or two reactions. I agree that there ae many good people in EN. One of the problems with a site like this is that there are a large degree of different viewpoints and tracking them can be difficult. Some have tried to take a paintbrush and classify all people here as either completely pro or bitterly anti all of EN. This is a temptation that we should avoid. Any criticism of EN is not to be descredited as the mumblings of backsliders or even reprobates. There are some sincere and honest people here. In the same way, some have been guilty of slander, angry outburts etc. It may come from pain, hurt and anger. Again, trying to contextualise each case would be impossible. Understand and show grace. I ask that we continue to be polite, truthful and gracious towards one another. Guilt manipulation from people on any side is wrong. One of the freshest tactics has been to accuse past members of personal dissapointment being the primary motive for leaving or criticising EN. To those people I would say that may be partially true, but then again many of us can distinguish between Jesus and the institution. It is possible to find a better church, a better place of fellowship and to move forward in Christ without EN membership, covering or teaching. Leaving EN is not a sign of rejecting Jesus. Sadly many people who have left EN may very well have left the Faith, but bear in mind that The Father watches over His children and He will leave the 99 to find the 1 sheep astray such is his heart. Your church may |
