| Author | Message | ||
     foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.129 |
Edited to say: I am sorry, rereading this, I can see where by using the word "you" in this writing it might be taken as a personal accussation. What I meant to do was to help you walk in my shoes. I should have stressed...If you were in my shoes when I was going through this then this is what you would of thought and felt. Other words, this is what I thought and felt. "You" is me. These are the feelings I struggled with. "You" is the writer, not the reader. *************************************** Doubt Control and the Glass House it builds For me living in HH is like living in a glass house. We were taught to take every thought captive. This verse was not just aimed at fleshly thought but primarily aimed at doubts about the doctrines, events, and especially the authority of the elders and group leaders. I was taught over and over again that the enemy's greatest weapon against us is to get us to question their authority. After a while this practice of pushing back or dismissing all the negative thoughts becomes automatic. You don’t even have to make an effort to cast the negative thoughts down. The first negative word in your thought sentence automatically dismisses the thought and replaces it with a positive thought you have been given. Positive thoughts like, “The elders are God’s anointed. I am so blessed to be here.” “If anyone is wrong it is me, (or the person who brought up the doubt,) it certainly isn’t the elders. Who am I to question what God has shown them.” “I am sooooo blessed to be a part of this Body. I couldn’t make it without it. It is my salvation.” “God is so Good to let me, as undeserving as I am, be a part of it.” You might admit to yourself, “It’s not perfect, BUT this is the best place to be. Thank you Jesus for bringing me here.” Gone is the negative before you even finish the thought, in its place is a reaffirming thought blessing. You have reformed you mind to only deal with the good thoughts about HH and all it entails. After a while you live in this crystal palace where negative or bad things are impossible to believe or not important enough to consider or ponder. Like sweeping dirt under a rug the lump grows and so must the denial of it. You don't see the carnality, (natural man we deal with until we go home to the Lord,) in your children, your brothers and sisters, and especially your leaders. You, yourself, have been broken: you view yourself as a worm who has been blessed. You feel that without HH you couldn't walk with God. Your spiritual dependence on HH has become paramount in your life. (paramount: supreme, dominant, chief, overriding, vital) You know those who have left HH did so for a reason, but you subconsciously don't want to hear it, (and the leaders don't want you to hear it.) Just the fact that you knew the people who left loved the Lord and you respected them for their walk with Him makes it hard to believe they left. (This is why HH begins a smear campaign on the characters of the people who leave. They don’t want you to believe that someone would leave HH because God had led them to go. They want you to believe it was the flesh or the enemy.) You don’t want to have a heart-to-heart talk with your loved ones who left. Fear of reprisal from a leader, fear of learning the rumors aren’t true, and fear that they might influence you to have doubts and you too might leave and loose the blessings and all your friends. You want to guard against the thought that you might have missed God’s will, that you might have spent all these years in a fantasy world created by deception and denial of the truth. You don’t want to have to repent for worshiping the temple or the body while searing your own conscious toward God. If you have deceived yourself, then you have misled others: your spouse, your children, and visitors who stayed in your home. The spiritual responsibility for that is too great to take on yourself. It is easier on the heart and mind if you don’t “go there.” Don’t talk to them about why they left. Don’t listen to your loved ones outside who are concerned about you. Make sure they know that they know that talking negatively or questioning your decision to be a part of HH is taboo. Let them know with your response and body language that they must keep their conversation agreeable or you will change your relationship with them to a shallow one or discontinue it all together. Push those thoughts out, think good thoughts. When you read the Word and see a contradiction to what you have been taught, when His word convicts you or warns you, remember that Bro. B and all those leaders have read it and they understand it better and are “anointed.” You remain humble and convince yourself you just don’t understand the verse then dismiss it and any doubt it brings. Turn the pages, read somewhere else or pick up the literature. There now don’t you fell better; more secure? What a blessing. I have been to these places in my heart and mind, I know… How many others of you have been there? The house has become so fragile, the denial so great, that one small rock, (dealing with the doubt,) could cause the whole thing to shatter. You have become so good at protecting that crystal palace you not only cast down the doubts, you avoid them and anyone who might cast them your way. Thinks of the Barcus family, the Crows, Bob and Eleanor M., the Beachners, and many more; some were even group leaders. You know they didn't walk away from God. So you do your best not to think of them. If they call you, the phone conversation will be uncomfortable. You love them and you don't want to just hang up. Talk is surface talk. How's the weather, the kids, etc... Not, “Are the rumors true? How is your walk with the Lord? Why did you leave?” When will you finally allow God to deal with that lump under the rug? (Usually it takes a major personal or family crisis that drives you to your knees and you cry out to God willing to hear anything He has to say, even if it's to tell you to thinks you don't want to hear. You stop playing the mind games. Then after that, He tells you to pick up the rug and deal with your doubts. You begin to search His Word and your heart for the answers. Some of the lumps are trash from the enemy, but just as much of what you swept under there are the warning signs, the red flags, the doubts and problems that needed dealt with and answered, and a major portion of that lump is the answers God has for you that you refused to hear because they caused even more doubts that need even more answers. If you have support from the outside, or your crisis is big enough you won’t just leave that lump there and cover it back up in fear. (I went to my husband and he did the "dismiss it" thing. So I cried out even harder to God. This caused my husband to go to our leaders. They did the “beat around the bush” and the "dismiss it," thing too. So I cried out to God even more. Then my husband realized he and the elders had no answers for me and he too began to cry out to God for answers to those questions.) As you open your heart and mind to God and His Word for answers you start seeing cracks in the glass. You will either, with help of the leaders, sweep everything back under the rug out of fear or you will see the house shatter then eventually crumble. (This is scary, heart wrenching, painful, and shocking. As you begin to see all you refused to see before, you have to guard your heart against anger or bitterness towards others and yourself. ) (We saw the house shatter, but we loved the people who lived there so much that at first we decided to stay and live in the house. We knew no house was perfect. Our hope was that even a house as broken as this one could be livable and healed by God.) Eventually, you will either realize you need to provide a safer home for your children or the leaders will come to you and ask you to leave so this crystal image isn't shattered in the minds of others or even their own. {As we opened our eyes and our hearts and began to grow in our personal relationships with God, we realized that God wanted us to move on even tough it meant we would loose the relationships we had formed with our loved ones. Before we told the elders we were leaving, they went to my husband and they said we must leave voluntarily or be forced out. Their reason… We had too many questions. We were told that we would not be disfellowshipped, (“on bad terms,”) as long as we didn’t cause problems for HH. By being “on good terms” people could talk to us if they bumped into us at the store etc… (It did not mean that we would be invited into their homes or that they would accept our invitations to fellowship with us. We had been around long enough to understand what happens when people leave “on good terms” or “bad terms.”)} The glass house with all the lumpy carpets, (now even lumpier because you left,) will remain in the lives of the love ones you leave behind, until one day, in God's mercy He will draw or drive them to the same openness to His answers and they will finally be willing to hear them. This time of growth in the Lord is so sweet and comforting, but first comes the repentance for searing your conscience toward Him, for not loving Him above all else, and everyone else, including His people. There is also repenting for fearing man and being a man pleaser, (for having called those men “father” when He has said, “call no man Father.”) There is a repentance for those who trusted you and you lead them astray, especially your children. It is a Godly sorrow. (The deepest sorrow I felt was for letting His truth, the Simple Gospel of Jesus, become polluted with my attempts of finishing what he said was finished at His cross. I had let His cross fall into the shadow of my own. I repented for giving up His gift of unmerited redemption and the joy of my salvation for going to bed most nights wondering if my deeds were acceptable and unblemished enough for His approval and salvation intact. Thank God, He has forgiven me and returned the joy I had before I joined HH.) The sweetness of His presence, His closeness, His greatness and love and the joy of your salvation replace the sorrows and the fears. He never left me nor forsook me. In my unfaithfulness, He was faithful. He restored my faith in His simple Gospel of truth. I am His. I cry, (real tears,) with thankfulness every time I hear or read the Gospel. He loved me while I was unlovable. His blood has cleansed me and it covers me. I have been GIVEN, (not earned,) a robe of white. He suffered and died that I might live. Then He rose again and sent His Spirit to abide in me. How great is His love!!!! How can I not love Him in return and will to live a life that glorifies Him and leads others to Him? God is Holy! (Message edited by foreverhis on June 03, 2005) | ||
| the_general (the_general) Junior Member Username: the_general Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.5.167 |
foreverhis,your testimony is awesome!!You have stated the truth of how life in HH is perfectly. God bless you!! | ||
| dowen (dowen) Member Username: dowen Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
I am going to endeavor to make a break from what seems to be the normal way of responding to posts on this Board. In all honesty I am weary of trading jabs and I am weary of everyone (including myself) taking bits and pieces out of each others posts and trying to respond to them. I don't think I will change any of your mind's, and I know none of you will change mine. That being said, I am at a loss when I read postings like the one above. The author is much more eloquent then I could ever hope to wax, and obviously feels that, judging by her experiences, HH is a cult. She did not come out and say HOMESTEAD HERITAGE IS A CULT, but she beat around that proverbial bush in such a fashion that a casual reader will walk away feeling that HH is a "mind repressive/mind controlling" cult! That is a pretty serious accusation to me, and many others. I have not idea who this poster is, nor do I care. What I do care about is Christian Churches being labled Cults! By this posters deffinition and aparent conviction, we could write off pretty much all of Christianity. Isn't one of the corner stones of our Faith the idea that God Himself, when he grants salvation, imparts unto us a "new mind"! What a repressive God we serve, he actually desires that we come under His way of thinking, at all times! What horrible control! Mind control/repressive thinking/mind conditioning, and whatever else you want to call it, are nothing more than the Devil's response to Salvation! If he can convince us, Believers, that Mind control, etc. etc., enforced by men, is possible, then he can convince us that it is possible for Salvation itself to also be manmade! What a perfect way for him to plant a seed of doubt! True Salvation is our Creator "having rule and reign" over every aspect of our lives. Isn't that what the poster is accusing HH of doing to her? Could it possibly be that her Creator was using the people around her at HH to help her see the ways He wanted to "Rule and Reign" in her life? Just a possibilty, but worth consideration before we dismiss an entire church as "cultic" or essentially, apostate. In the end, the above poster speaks of finding a new and better relationship with Jesus, after leaving HH. I am honestly happy for her and wish her and her family well. I just wish she wouldn't feel the need to say such hurtful things about the people who loved her, and still love her, so much. I beg all of you ex-members, please try to remember the love you were shown during your stay at HH! To all of you, try to remember all of the Sisters who brought your families meals while you were sick, or otherwise! Try to remember the hours Sisters spent with you nursing you back to health and helping to teach your children while you were incapicitated. Please do not return cursings for Blessings! | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.142 |
Dowen and others, I do not curse anyone. I pray that God will bless the people of HH. Even after leaving I love them dearly. I was actually hoping that this letter might make a few of them, especially the leaders, realize what is happening when people follow this method of doubt casting. I do not think they wring their hands and say, "Lets control the minds of these people." Maybe they will understand this and teach them to seek God and search the scriptures when they have questions or doubts about what they are being taught. As far as whether or not HH is a cult, I didn't label them as such. Cult is a strong word with different meanings to different people. I would never compare HH to Hare Krishna, the Solar Temple, or any of those far out there groups. I didn't use the word cult because I don't want other people to compare them to those groups. The people of HH are peaceful. They mean no harm to their members. Unfortunately, there are times when I mean no harm, and yet harm is done. Everything in my testimony is true. Thought reform is happening to a least some of the members. People are reforming their own minds by this type of doubt casting. It happened to me. Leaders just instructed me to do something that repressed my thinking in away I didn't realize. Maybe the leaders don’t even realize the effect that it has. I don't think they did this to take advantage of me. I think they thought it would guard me against any doubt's that our true enemy would throw my way. (They believe that any doubts to their authority would only come from Satan.) I don't think they have an evil intent. They truly believe their leadership is above being questioned and they believe if the leaders make a wrong decision that God will work it to good for the members as long as the members do their part and submit. I remember when the David Keresh thing took place. (No I am not comparing them to that group! They are not like that!) Anyway, when I was asking my many questions before we left, one question was, "Did David K.'s follower do the right thing when they submitted and honored him in the battle?" Their answer was, "The peoples responsibility to God was to submit to the authority God put in their lives and if that is what they did, then they did the right thing." Is this teaching right or wrong? Does God hold us, especially fathers, accountable to know his will, or only for submission to leaders? Am I as a wife to do my husbands will even if it goes against my conscience? If I feel God is screaming to my heart, "It is morally wrong don't do it?" What do I do? HH teaches I should submit to my husband and let God take care it and if I am faithful to submit, God will be faithful to me. BUT...The Bible says it is better to obey God than man. When I asked about the deception in the answers for visitors my group leader went to the elders and came back with the answer that we need to see their intent. That they don't want to offend the visitor and they want to be able to reach them and minister God's love to them. So I said, "You mean the end justifies the means? And he answered "Yes." This is why their answers to one person can be opposite of what they tell another person. They will give you the answer they think will help you. HH members and leaders are not our enemies. They all deserve our love and prayers. Our enemy is not flesh and blood. Anyone who harbors bitterness would do good to remember this. I might be wrong, but I really, really... think that those leaders love, (conditionaly,) the people and they are doing what they feel is best for all of them. We have all been wrong at one time or another, some of us many times. Being wrong is not necessarily evil. Before Paul met Jesus he was zealous in his persecution of Christians. He was zealous to do what he considered was the will of God. Just because he thought it was God's will, doesn't mean what he did was right and had he no need to change. It also doesn’t mean that what was happening to those Christians when Paul caught up to them was God’s will. Later Paul went on to be mightily used of God. He was never what I consider an "evil" man. Dowen<<<Isn't one of the corner stones of our Faith the idea that God Himself, when he grants salvation, imparts unto us a "new mind"! What a repressive God we serve, he actually desires that we come under His way of thinking, at all times! What horrible control! So are you saying God’s thinking and HH thinking are one in the same? Thinking as God would have me to is something I want to do. Putting the leaders of any church in God’s place, (His throne in my life,) is not something I would want to do. I want to keep my mind open to ask God for wisdom: “God is ____ your will.” “God please give me wisdom concerning _____.” I would want to be able to search His Word and seek advice from mature Christians. (I believe though that acting on that advice from mature Christians does not remove me from personal responsibility to know and do what is right. We are to seek Godly council, that doesn’t mean that the people we ask have to be right and we should do as they say.) In the end I must do what His Spirit is leading me to do. Yes, The Word tells us: 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. 2 Corinthians 10:4-6 4For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. We are to renew our minds and we are to take thoughts captive. The thoughts we are to take captive are those that exalts themselves against the knowledge of God. I humbly and softly ask: Do you believe that HH is “the knowledge of God?” (which we know IS perfect and beyond error?) Do you think that God would never want you to question what the leaders tell you, even if you know in your gut that it is wrong and against what the Bible teaches? Is it really wrong instead to search the scriptures to see if the leaders or doctrines are right and not cast down the possibility they might be wrong? Maybe you believe it is. I believed it at one time myself. I believed, as they taught me, that it didn’t matter if they were wrong, that I should trust God by trusting them. Submitting was my part. It was supposedly God’s way of breaking my flesh. Dowen<<< True Salvation is our Creator "having rule and reign" over every aspect of our lives. Isn't that what the poster is accusing HH of doing to her? Just because it is right for God to be my Lord, it doesn’t mean it is OK for HH to be my Lord. Does HH have every right to do what God has the right to do? I was the guilty of allowing HH to take that place. Because of salvation I can have an intimate, direct relationship with Him. Because His spirit dwells in me, I can know His will, and I have the desire and ability to do it. The New Testament plainly tells us we no longer have human priest who stand between us and God. When we put men in that place we no longer answer to God with a clear conscience and we miss what God would want to speak directly to us. He has sent the Holy Spirit to Guide us. Walking in the Spirit is being sensitive to the Spirit directly speaking to our conscience/heart and following that leading. We are to test what others tell us by what His Word says and the leading of His Spirit. His sheep hear His voice. Dowen<<Could it possibly be that her Creator was using the people around her at HH to help her see the ways He wanted to "Rule and Reign" in her life? No Dowen, again softly I say…God did not want me seek my answers from men rather than Him. God did not want me to put them on His throne. He did not want me to lie to visitors for what someone perceived to be their own good. He did not want me to shun those who left. (In fact, when I opened my heart again to hear Him, the first thing he did was convict my spirit for not continuing the relationships He gave me with those who left. I said, “but Lord, my group leader told me not too.” And He said “You fear men more than you fear me.” “I am not your God.” I began to sob hysterically, and I cried out “God, how can that be?” And he said to me, “You worship a temple, not the God of the Temple.” When I went humbly to confess to my group leaders what God showed me, the Group leader’s wife was sure God had spoken to me. The man said, “Sister____, they are one in the same. God's temple is God come in the flesh” God’s Spirit quickly verified in my heart that they were not one in the same. Even the group leader’s wife knew what God was saying to me. She tried to explain it to her husband. Gods Spirit spoke to her too. Her husband remained adamant in his view. After that night, his wife did not come with them to speak to us regarding my questions. The Group leader told my husband that it was because I was too convincing. Truth is, I didn’t convince her, the Holy Spirit did.) God also wanted me to believe that His sacrificial death saved me and that salvation is a gift of God, and all my righteousness is as filthy rags. He wanted me to serve Him because I love Him and it would glorify Him and lead others to Him. My heart aches knowing that I have offended you. I want so much for you to know the love I have for you and the people in HH. Leaving them was extremely hard. I cried for a long time. When I wrote the letter above and this one, I tried so to use a soft voice. I was hoping it would help someone. I'm sorry it sounded like I was accussing someone. The problem with printed words is that they can so easily be read and taken harshly. I am not accusing them of trying to harm anyone. I have no animosity toward the people of HH, I once stood in their shoes. I don’t dare judge them. They are sincere in what they believe, but what the beleive is sincerely wrong. How I wish and pray that something I have said will ring true with their consciences and they would just lay aside all they have been taught for just a few minutes and seek to hear directly from the Holy Spirit what ever He would want to say to them. I do love you and consider you in HH to be my Brothers and Sisters. If I am wrong, may God show me and bring me back to you. If what you are being taught is wrong, may God show you and give you the courage to change (Message edited by foreverhis on June 03, 2005) | ||
| moovin_on (moovin_on) New member Username: moovin_on Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.151.50.44 |
TO YALL : JUST FOR THE RECORD, ALL I REMEMBER ABOUT HH IS HOW I WAS LOVED AND THE JOY AND PEASE I FELT THERE. I LOVE THEM PEOPLE AND MISS THEM A TON!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 640 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.228.14.9 |
So why don't you go back? | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Advanced Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 641 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.228.14.9 |
moovin_on, I just realized that my question above could be construed to be flippant or sarcastic, and I want to clarify that it was not intended that way. I am sincerely interested in knowing why you are not with HH any longer. Do you have love and joy and peace where you are now? | ||
| dowen (dowen) Member Username: dowen Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
Dear Foreverhis, Thank you for your reply and I humbly apolagize to you if I offended you in any way. I agree that printed words do have a tendency to come off stronger than the writer desired them to. You have made some valid points and I do not want to detract from them, or dismiss them as entirely wrong. I assure you, you have not offended me in any fashion. In fact your posts, and many others here, have caused me to dig and search for answers and the Truth. Instead of being offended, I choose to be thankfull that this Board has caused me to truly seek for answers and resolutions to questions I have had for a long time. You haven't called HH a cult, but you have used the largest anti-cult discussion board in the world, as the vehicle to make your points. So in my mind, by associating or lumping HH in with all of the other wacko groups listed on this site you are, in a way calling them a cult. Or at least cultic. I may be entirely wrong in that assumption, I have been known to be wrong before. I say this not to discredit you, but just to point out the obvious. Since you agree with me that HH is not a cult, then why are you discussing them in this arena? An arena surrounded by hungry vultures(such as the Watchman Fellowship), waiting to find groups to prey upon and label as cults? That is very disturbing to me. Like you, I love the folks out at HH and seeing them picked apart by some of the posters here, is quite painful to me. I am reminded of when the early Church was persucuted. When the persecutions began, the early Church only spread and multiplied! Isn't the widening and multiplication of HH the very thing some of the posters here are so vehemently against? Thank you for the respect and soft words you used in your response to me, I will try to follow that example, especially in correspondence with you. I just wish our correspondence wasn't in this arena. Many Blessings to you, and all participating in this discussion. | ||
| urka (urka) New member Username: urka Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.195 |
dowen, i too have wished there was another place to discuss these things. i have the ability and know how to create a message board apart from this one that is much easier to use. it could be private, in that you can not post until you have registered, and only the moderator can decide who is allowed to register. of course it is available for anyone to read, but we could assure that only e-members or their families became members. the possibilities are endless. i have tomorrow off work, and even a little time right now. if anyone is interested in something like this please let me know. urka | ||
| dowen (dowen) Member Username: dowen Post Number: 66 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.54.214.51 |
To Foreverhis and anyone out there participating on this Board, please, please, please understand that I do not wish to offend any of you! I have used strong language at times, and was promptly accused of being hysterical and radical. I do not want to turn and label all of you in the same manner! I have been a little "radical" in my approach to the Watchman guys, but only in response to their wild and radical claims. Please take everything I say with a grain of salt. Let me remind all of you, I am a 23 year old kid, and I do not think I have all the answers. The heart I am speaking from is the heart that is finding answers to many of the issues that have been raised here! I sincerely apolagize if in my fervor and desire to share what I have learned, I have came across rude or offensive. That has never been my desire. My only desire has been to seek the Truth, even if I don't like what I find. | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.43 |
No need to apologize, you haven’t offended me. Dowen, I don't want to ignore your questions, but I don't want to answer them either. Why? Because for you the glass house still stands. You are out of HH, so there is no reason for me to subject you to the pain of seeing the house crumble in your mind. If it ever does, you will need someone there to help you through the pain. . I don’t want to offend you or hurt you anymore. Edited.... Every time I saw you or thought of you a prayer went up. That prayer was answered after you left the fellowship and you drew near to Jesus.) God bless you. (Message edited by Foreverhis on August 15, 2005) | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) New member Username: infreedom Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.89.26 |
We are recent "escapees" from a group similar to Homestead Heritage and know other families intent on leaving; in fact, some recently have. Now that we're out, we've been searching for the truth and for ways to help those we left behind. A few days ago I found this website and took the liberty to copy and paste a posting by "foreverhis" from Tuesday, May 31, 2005 into my word processor. The subject of the posting was "doubt control". I have printed some copies of this posting and distributed it to some of these families. The reaction has been incredible. All of us feel as though foreverhis has expressed our own hearts. Some have broken down in deep sobs on reading her words because they represent the first clear presentation of the truth some of seen in many years. People are being helped to throw off the yoke of bondage. (I'm sorry to have distributed the writing in this manner; the group prohibits the use of the Internet to most of its members. Some of those coming out have limited Internet skills and might never have found the posting.) If foreverhis is still somewhat plugged in to what is happening at Homestead Heritage, she may be able to confirm some of what I'm saying. If the word hasn't filtered back, it soon will since the groups are in contact with one another. Some of us who are already out and have had an opportunity to go to church have also been helped by the thread in which person after person described tears of joy streaming down their faces on first hearing the simple beauty of the gospel for the first time in years. That was my experience as well. It is so beautiful, at first I was afraid to believe it again. | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.82 |
HOW WONDERFUL!!! Praise the Lord!!! I am so blessed to hear that Jesus is setting these people free. (I pray that it does spill over to HH.) I don't know what group you are from but I am just as thrilled as if you were one of my loved ones from HH. God is so good! I am praying for you and your friends. When I first left, (that first few weeks,) the deeply instilled fears of loosing my salvation for leaving HH haunted me off and on. If it wasn't for my dear Christian friends being there for me, praying for and with me, sharing the gospel with me, and letting me call them day or night I might have succumbed to the fears groups like these use to keep us there. Be there for your friends. Shine the light of Jesus. Let them see the joy of your salvation, and your unconditional love for them. Show them that a deeply committed walk with the Lord does exist outside of the group and that life with God can grow after leaving. Dispel the false fears associated with leaving. Thank you for sharing with me what is happening. Please keep us posted. Be sure to get support for yourself and your friends. If we can be any support to you please let us. I would be willing to call and talk to you. You can send an email to formerHH@yahoo.com Please fill free to distribute anything I write here. May God continue to free you and bless you, Sincerely, foreverhis | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.79.206.88 |
bump | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.91.248 |
charitygrace, what do you mean by "bump"? I'm not being snide or anything. I'm just not sure. | ||
| infreedom (infreedom) Junior Member Username: infreedom Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.141.91.248 |
charitygrace, what do you mean by "bump"? I'm not being snide or anything. I'm just not sure. | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.5 |
Good Morning Infreedom.  "Bump" is common among message boards. It means "This message needs 'bumped' to the top of the message board list where people will see it." Thank you Charity Grace. ForeverHis | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.79.206.186 |
bump | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 114 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
bump | ||
| under_grace (under_grace) Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
Truth Hunter, Thanks for this bump, I had never read this thread. FOREVER HIS, you did a fantastic job of the thinking process that goes through your mind while in HH. This process has gone through many past members minds and you have stated it so well. D.OWEN, may I say back in June you gave some very civil insightful posts. You may be a "23 year old kid" but these posts you made back in June show you can disagree and still be cival about it. As I have said before I always admired your passion and from reading these post I applaud your restraint. Perhaps you could bring that same spirit to present day posts. God Bless You All! PS If some of the present day HH members are reading this message, go back to the beginning of this thread and READ IT ALL! Look in your heart, and see if some of it does not ring true. It is wonderful to be..... Under Grace | ||
| dowen (dowen) Intermediate Member Username: dowen Post Number: 177 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
Under_Grace, Thanks for the kind words. You said you admired my passion and I couldn't help but remember this quote, "Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark." Henri Frederic Amiel Many of the words posted here have been as the "shock of Iron" to me. So, let my "sparks" of passion fall where they will. Every one of them came from a heart that had been struck by the cold-hearted, iron filled words, of many of the posters here. In 1st Timothy Paul spoke of what men would be like in the "latter days", specifically, 1 Tim. 4:2 "Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;" The only way I can comprehend many of the posts here is by understanding that the poster's conscience has been seared by the hot iron that Paul speaks of. I truly wish no harm upon the posters I speak of, I only wish they would realize that they are hardening their hearts against HH in much the same way as Pharoah hardened his heart against the children of Israel. We all know what befell him because of his hard-heartedness. I do not wish that to befall ony of the posters here. I can agree to disagree, that does not mean that I will not remain concerned for the person who continually hardens his heart and persecutes Children of God. } (Message edited by dowen on September 09, 2005) | ||
| missionary_lady (missionary_lady) New member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.98.56.103 |
Maybe some have more of a reason than you think... Being shunned is a bitter experience and Jesus did not even shun Judas... Are you saying God hardens the hearts of those that leave HH? There hearts may be hard but I doubt if God had anything to do with that... | ||
| foreverhis (foreverhis) New member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.61 |
As I go about my activities preparing for the holiday, those in Homestead are on my heart and mind. There is no hard place in my heart concerning them. I was there. I was in there shoes. I was deeply apart of them in my heart. Certain sisters especially JBarb... have been greatly on my heart. I love you sister and I have NEVER stopped thinking of you. I know the love of Jesus is in your life. So many times I felt that love from you. May you continue to be a light shining His glory as you were when I was there. May God bless you beyond measure this Christmas. Forever His, Robin | ||
| charitygrace (charitygrace) New member Username: charitygrace Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.33.108.15 |
bump | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 517 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.106.87 |
Forever His...Was reading what you wrote about te glass house...Very true... If HH could only realize we are NOT their enemies we are begging them to look again at how they do things... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 577 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
"If HH could only realize we are NOT their enemies we are begging them to look again at how they do things..." This is the kind of logic that boggles my mind. ML has come to this board, made outrageous claim after outrageous claim, supported posters who call HH leaders Nazis, called them Nazis herself, accused HH of being greedy (after they donated THOUSANDS of dollars to her Ministries), accused HH of being power hungry, accused HH of being controlling and overbearing, accused HH of abusing her "Mom", and countless other things. Yet, she claims she is "begging them to look again"... and she says she is not their enemy... Am I the only one who sees the incredible duplicity here? I just don't get it. DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 520 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.22.210 |
Well, Dowen whatever they gave was not given to me personally but given to Jesus. If I were a money minded person I coulld have received four times more that what they gave me during the time we were there. Whatever I have said I have said TRUTH. I stayed long enough to find out for myself what is behind HH. I am not their enemy but TRUTH is. Why were they not man enough to come to me instead of making an old woman make a phone call in the middle of the night before she could find peace? Dowen, it doesn't really matter to me what you think you are not old enough to know what I know. You are like some of my kids that tae churches and are really going to show how it is done UNTIL they face and go through what a leader does... I am a leader of a large body of people. Not an elected leader because I choose not to be. A leader because I am their missionary I stand before them and God as an example but not as a God to them or a Jesus in the flesh. I enforce no laws to the point of dividing families, they are not shunned if they leave our church, I do not think I have some special light as the JW do that keeps getting brighter everyday. I seek God's best for the Brazil work for I know I will not be around much longer but I backed away from HH after learning what they really represent. You are really informed on their book keeping not to be a member... | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 190 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Ironically, if someone in HH ministry had called you, rather than Roxie, you would likely be berating them on that account. (this is the .. 'they get you coming and they get you going' syndrome .. a similar type of accusation logic was discussed by Jesus vis a vis how folks looked at John the Baptist) Anyway, the deeper issue, from my perspective, is that you have amply vindicated their decisions, their insight on this matter, putting to rest any concern that might have existed. Discussed this earlier, and said with sadness. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 527 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.121.57 |
Go join the Prax....you have no grounds for all your writings.. What is most important we are in the will of the Lord, our family, our churches and all are marching on... | ||
| praxaluh Intermediate Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 197 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Ironically, if I were writing from within HH, you would simply say I am brainwashed. Tis fine that you are marching on, seeking to do the will of the Lord Jesus. However, you go to tremendous efforts to convince yourself and others that you simply made a mistake with HH ... that there was not something real and strong there to be considered in the Holy Spirit. May the day come some when you will have a real peace and friendship and reconciliation and respect between yourself and those with whom you shared so much. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 532 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.27.24 |
Yes my friend it was a mistake. I have peace...I looked 12 masked bandits in the face with guns and felt no fear of not being ready to meet the Lord... I bowed before these men and wept but I refuse to KILL THE BRAZIL WORK. | ||
| missionary_lady Advanced Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 533 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.27.24 |
My friend the others you speak of must be youreslf...dowen and HH for all my frineds are glad that we walked away from such teaching. I have no one to convince...my friends were praying I would not fall in their trap. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 264 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.175 |
When my personal relationship, {personal in the sense that I became willing to hear God directly, (due to a crisis,) and began to hear directly from God again, listening to how he spoke to me through my conscience, and read and took the Bible in context interpreted in context with the Holy Spirit’s help, feared God more than man, loved Him more than the Body, sought His approval over that of the elders and the Body, even if they were to forsake me for it....} then God opened my eyes to the truth. My love for my brothers and sisters in HH compelled me to stay and pray for changes. I testified boldly for weeks on Friday nights what God was doing in my life. We met for hours and hours with our group leaders, asking questions, (hoping on one side that we were wrong and HH was right, not wanting to our fantasy world of HH to continue to crumble in the face of reality, and on the other side, hoping for changes that would move HH towards the truth, towards God and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.) The more I felt life from my renewed relationship with Jesus, the more death I felt in HH. The more I saw truth in the Word, the more lies I would see in HH doctrine. The more I experienced love from Jesus, the more I realized HH's love was conditional on my agreeing with them and their falsehoods. The glass house had broken and the walls denial began to crumble to the ground. My heart was broken for HH and those I loved there, but I could not give up the joy, peace, and truth just to get along. We stayed as long as they would let us, still clinging to our hope of changes. We had friends on the outside praying and fasting each time we met with our group leaders and on Friday nights. The elders could not explain away what we were seeing. It came down to them telling us to leave "because how can two walk together unless they agree." I cried and cried; I kept on praying. It was a time of great joy in the Lord, but also a time of sorrow because we knew they would shun us and not hear the truth. The longer we were away, (the further we can stand back and see the whole picture,) the more we realized the damage HH practices and beliefs had on families. When we told each other our experiences and the things we saw happen to our friends and neighbors in HH we began to realize that these were not isolated incidences and that problems and atrocities we common in HH. They were not exceptions, they were the norm. The problems and abuses were, and are, the results of patterns including secrecy and denial in HH. The more I knew, the more denial I set aside, the larger the pile of shattered glass from the HH house became. As the years went by and God would bring to memory the things I had forced to the back of my mind while in HH, I began to see the monster that was hidden in the glass house rise out of hiding among the shattered glass. Do not stay and wait for changes. Many have already tried that. Do not just walk away, RUNNNNNNNNNNNN! | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1336 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.162.228.175 |
Pray for the poor people...that are blinded and many that have trained themselves not to listen to the voice of conscience... When I think of some of the leaders I think of the scripture that says,"They perish because they refused to love the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:10] | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 293 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Just thought I'd note on one thing- Prax said, (this is the .. 'they get you coming and they get you going' syndrome .. a similar type of accusation logic was discussed by Jesus vis a vis how folks looked at John the Baptist) I'll say this is so typical! HH is not Jesus nor are they John the Baptist, so why refer to them as such? It's not even remotely similar! But that is just the mindset that HHers and HH defenders have that the elders are great men of God. ........ What a joke. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1337 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.128.24.5 |
Neither are they Moses or anything like that... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 740 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Hello Hunter, The thing that frustrates me is, just like Praxulah said, you and your gang DO get us coming and going. If I am a member of HH, I am brainwashed. If I am not a member of HH, yet respect them and support them, I am STILL brainwashed by them, and a fool to boot. There is no "Agree to disagree" and move on type scenario. Your approach is; "Agree with me, or I will call you names until you shut up and leave this message board alone". You accuse HH of being set in their ways and unwilling to change, yet you are the worst of the worst in that category. You have tried to cleverly set yourself up as some kind of "visionary", yet I think that any unbiased reader can see through your facade. Your post's clearly show you to be the pot calling the kettle black... All I can say is, at least it is entertaining to watch. | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 294 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Of course we're not backing down Daniel, especially not to you and Prax. You were a kid when you were there (not a member), and Prax probably was too it's been so long ago. Your comparisons of my not changing and HH not changing....????? What am I not changing ? or supposed to be changing, my point of view? The truth? Just gonna let all of my gang members know that ......... oh wait, I don't have a gang.  | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 599 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Yeah, a wee little child barely out of high school. Or college. Or the counter-culture. A little child in his 20's and 30's who after that has visited a good number of times and has kept communication. Amazing. Anyway, it was also interesting how you chaffed and mocked at a very appropriate simile. For any who many not be following - If Daniel or myself or another are in HH .. then we are simply brainwashed, don't listen .. if we are not .. then our sharing should be disregarded, look why aren't we there as members this day. Or if we are close by discussing issues and concerns each day with HH members then we are should be disregarded because we are too close, too influenced, yet if we are further away, how could we know, after all we are 1500 miles away. If our family is involved then that is too much of an influence. Yet if our closest members were dear friends and the spiritual comaraderie of HH but not family ties then we have not seen enough. If we were actively involved recently then it can be said that we are still too influenced by HH, yet if we have been away for awhile and seen all sorts of other Christian fellowships over many years as both friend and member and have been able to compare a lot, then we don't know HH well enough. It goes on and on. Now I see this type of 'logic' most of all from non-Christian skeptics when I defend the Bible as the inspired and pure word of God .. if you actually believe the Bible you have an 'a priori' stance and should be discounted, if you do not then you are not a real Christian. This is the type of 'logic' used by the skeptics here, the disaffected. Rather than speak straight, always try to find a wedge to dispute, attack the speakers background one way or another, any way at all. Find some excuse, even play both ends against the middle, against the words of those who are aghast at some of the abominations on this forum and are willing to take time and speak square for the readers, to give balance and perspective. And this disassembling is the same type of 'logic' that the Pharisees used to try to disregard John the Baptist and Jesus, what can be called the 'ascetic and wine-bibbers syndrome'. Luke 7:28-35 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1338 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.177.37 |
Peter warns in 2 Peter 2:1 about the certainty of there being false teachers who will introduce “damnable heresies”, and in 3:16,17 he speaks of the “unlearned and unstable”, the ignorant and feckless, who twist the scriptures to their own destruction. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1339 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 172.161.177.37 |
I cannot rejoice with HH after I know the INSIDE story.... (1 Cor 13:6 KJV) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; I rejoice in truth not in things that are done for a show. | ||
| truth_hunter Intermediate Member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 295 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.55.230.165 |
Prax , for me there is not a shadow of a doubt! HH doctrine and the practices of their leaders that pertain even to current affairs as well as the past are dark and evil. Hiding crimes, disowning of ones daughter or son for following God to the best of their conscience, forcing marriages in the name of God, these are not christian practices. They are wolves in sheep's clothing! To me there is NO doubt. Prax and daniel you can rant and rave about how great they are, I don't blame you, I would have done the same thing. Just don't expect to turn around, lie and change my story to protect a dangerous evil that I have seen. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1402 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.217.13.41 |
bump | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 652 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Thanks for the bump. I do hope some folks have noted the post on the 'ascetic and wine-bibbers syndrome'. Those of us who appreciate the heart and teachings and dedication of HH will share our views without too much concern that there may be a bit of nattering negativity in the background .. 'why are u here, or not there, or doing this, or not doing that' May you all have wonderful days ahead in the Lord Jesus Christ. And may the Lord Jesus bless the gathering together of brothers and sisters in sweet fellowship and community, touching and reaching out to a world that very much needs to see the Bible, lives sincerely dedicated to the Lord Jesus and service one to another, alive today. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1403 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.217.13.41 |
I was told if I bumped the post you would have something to say...so funny... I do not appreciate a church that lies and a church that destroys it's own... You words are quite empty Prax...practice what you preach move to HH... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1404 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.217.13.41 |
I mean no harm to you Prax...just strange you are such an intelligent person and cannot see through HH...Puzzles me... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 758 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
MissionaryLady, Please don't take this the wrong way, but your above post is both hilarious and extremely sad. Apparently, you are resting your case on the premise that Praxaluh is just too smart for his own good. I'm sorry, but that is funny to me. I guess, in your world, when an obviously intelligent humble Christian disagrees with you, your only recourse is to attack the one thing you seem to admire in him the most. What a sad, bizarre, defense. ------------------------------------------------- On a lighter note, I hope all of you have enjoyed a wonderful Thanksgiving. I know mine was! Yours, DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1405 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.217.20.150 |
Really we do not celebrate Thanksgiving here as it is an American holiday. My family is not made up of Americans so we lean toward the Brazilian holidays. However, We are thankful each day and for all the many blessings of the Lord. Dowen, I have no hard feelings at you...I once felt like you do until my eyes were opened. And no I am not resting my case on the premise that Prax is too smart for if he was very smart he would KNOW what he is really defending. If I were not 100 percent sure of what I say I would not post here or anywhere else. Do you realize my life is in danger even as I set writing these words? I feel deeply sorry for you Dowen. I really do. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 759 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
"And no I am not resting my case on the premise that Prax is too smart for if he was very smart he would KNOW what he is really defending." Oh. Uh huh. So he is not really all that intelligent eh? Since we seem to be down to a battle of wits, my money is on Prax. But that's just me. ML, I hope you have a good evening. and I am truly sorry that your life is in danger, but in all honesty, if my life were in danger, WWW message boards would be the least of my concerns. If your post's were more consistent, I would try harder to read them and respond, but it is obvious that your bias is far more important to you than honesty. Since that is the path you choose to tread, then plod on. As for me, I choose to pursue the path of honesty and simplicity. Honesty in not labeling them as horrendous people like you have, and simplicity in embracing HH as Christian Brother's and Sister's. I am sorry that your bias blinds you and I am sorry that you feel it necessary to write the foolishness that you have here. I am NOT sorry for myself, and I do NOT desire your sorrow for me. Please save it for someone who needs it. As you said; "I feel deeply sorry for you Dowen. I really do." Eh. I don't believe it. Not for a second. You have called me names, ridiculed me and mocked me. Nahh, I don't think you feel anything for me other than despise. You may try to deny this, but the record proves it. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1409 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.217.11.117 |
I am in a hotel right now and write is about all I can do...so I will write...I do not fear death...I do not fear bandits, it is a part of life here. I just stay prayed up and ready to go up at His call. No, I do not despise you Daniel. I despise the false doctrine at HH, the abuse, the lies, the "big" shows, I despise false ways, lying tongues, leaders that call their people jaded and laugh about it, I despise a double life, a double standard...lots of things I despise but I do not despise you. I do not even know you. How could I despise you? I don't agree with you but I see why you see things as you do. I despise William Branham doctrine but I have friends that believe it. I despise JW doctrine but I have friends that are faithful JW. I despise Mormon doctrine but I have friends that are Mormon. So Daniel as a person I do not despise you I despise what you believe to be gospel. I despise that you cannot see the abuse there. I despise that you cannot see how wrong they treated my missionary mom, I despise them teaching they are jesus in the flesh. I despise the seperating of families...the no speaking rules... I despise that a group would teach their people they have hidden manna for coming days and others will come running to them. I despise a doctrine based on fear of man. I despise leaders that would get up at a funeral and talk about a person's sex life. Lots of things I despise because they are wrong. I despise the idol gods of Brazil, the death covenants of the witchdoctors and their people, I despise rituals that take and never give. Have you forgotten I am a missionary and I live for others? Jesus said, Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free...Daniel are you free? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 653 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, Greetings Daniel, Mrs. Alvear does fine when she relates about the work in Brazil, such as for prayer support and when they are writing sharing the activities and adventures and difficulties to those who are concerned and to those who may be able to offer direct helps to the ministry (places to speak and such). That is fine at GoodNewsCafe and understandable here or just about any place where believers congregate. Nothing wrong with getting an email out and sharing with dozens or even hundreds of folks. The only error is when she tries to work this tool of the internet as a battleground against HH fellowship and ministry, as we see here, draining energy and attention into an ultra-dubious crusade. That has been an error of the first order. And my hope is that they are able to move away from that and into a fully forward and positive direction in the Lord Jesus Christ. That will be a help to all, to bring forth the 'peaceable fruit of righteousness'. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 318 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 12.162.187.84 |
Dear Prax and DO, Do you think I am lying in my testimonies on this thread or do you condone what happened to us while in HH? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1410 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.217.20.169 |
That is not true Prax...strange how you think you know people's hearts. I am sharing here because most here are aware I am a missionary and a prayer request I feel is ok...Do you seem to think just because everyone doesn't see eye to eye the Bible that I would think they are a bunch of Wackos? (maybe misspelled) Most of the people I have talked with are praying people and I am asking for prayer for our safety. If those responsible for this site ask me not to share I will...if not I will continue to share. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 654 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi Folks, F-H, I have shared with you a number of times that much of what is reported here is simply filtered through a type of glasses that is not complete or trustworthy as an account for the reader. Much is omitted, the speakers are almost always squeaky-pristine spiritually 99 44/100++ % clean and pure in every angle of their accounts - and the context of dedicated New Testament Bible ministry is often derided, honor and respect is not given. And often I have gone into questions here in some depth on particular doctrinal issues, as when we discussed the Anabaptist question and I followed up by quoting the HH material which was actually very clear and put the issue to rest. Or when we discuss water baptism in Jesus name or the exegesis of the passages in 1John and 2John 'Jesus come in the flesh'. Clearly it is harder or impossible to do an indepth discussion relating to personal issues and ministry - since this is a poor venue for such discussions even when a surface attempt is made to be less adversarial than the norm here. Too many others are straining to accuse and are not interested in giving respect to the deep things of God. Itching ears abound. Please remember that I have also made it clear that I don't think there is much in the way of 'lying' (ie. deliberate untruth) on any side. I find such accusations often counterproductive to real dialog. Richard Nixon is famous in American history for saying that he was 'not a crook' and folks are always quick to proclaim their own truthfulness and accuracy. Such proclamations tend to tell us little about the depth and heart of a matter. Proverbs 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find? Now above you ask me for some sort of carte blanche summary conclusion about all sorts of unspecified accounts that you have given over months of posting. Simply impossible, of course. You set up a false dichotomy that either I am accusing you of 'lying' or I am giving my full and unconditional agreement with every aspect of all sorts of personal ministry of which I have next-to-no personal knowledge. In my experience I have seen that HH has considered whether they were fully right on personal ministry issues to brethren, righteously accountable to God and seeking to be sure that Godly authority is properly manifest - so nobody is in a position to work with your dichotomy. I can say that I have deep respect for the HH ministry and always consider whether those who use this forum as their public venting forum are really being fully honest and fair and balanced and contexual in their accounts. It appears to me that often they are not. And the very fact of using this forum for such purposes casts a dark cloud over much of what is related. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| trulyhis New member Username: trulyhis Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 209.159.98.13 |
I recently had a friend join HH & I need advice as to how to approach my friend with concerns I have. I would really like to speak with someone who has left HH. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 761 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.197 |
Hello TrulyHis, My e-mail is dowen21@msn.com I would be happy to speak with you anytime. DOwen. | ||
| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 320 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Formerhh@yahoo.com Forever His | ||
| yeoman Junior Member Username: yeoman Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 207.69.138.9 |
Dear Prax, Could you distill that down to where someone with just the government-mandated high school education could understand it? Thanks! | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 658 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 74.73.4.159 |
Hi, Oop, I put the post on the wrong thread. Here is is here : Greetings to newbies, amishman and danm, Hi Yeoman, The 'in my experience' paragraph is awkward, could have been rewritten but the idea should get through. If there is a section that really can't be handled ('does not compute') by the current government-mandated minimal edumacational requirements, point to the part, either here or praxeus@bigfoot.com is fine. Perhaps part of the concern is that I write in a more open-thinking manner. Less in the form of dialectical logic, more in the sense of ... 'consider this .. think about that' More a difference of style than anything else, but one not seen much on the Net. And yes, momof2boys did have an 'if', good to point that out, the sense seemed to be that the if had already been concluded, hence our concern, but she had properly conditionalized. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1412 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.27.150 |
Poor Prax... | ||
| old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 83 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 |
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| old_watchman Member Username: old_watchman Post Number: 88 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.15.65.110 |
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| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1475 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.205.163.50 |
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| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1594 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.3.115 |
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| foreverhis Intermediate Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
Homestead Heritage members and leaders, the compassion and sorrow I feel for you has become even stronger. You are all at the front of my mind and the top of my heart. I am praying fervently for the bonds of deceptions to be broken, and for your eyes to be opened. I am praying for great courage for you all; the courage it will take for you to accept the truth when you see it and repent before more members are hurt, loose their children to the world, or have their faith in God shipwrecked. Sometimes it has been hard for me to have the faith I need to believe that such strong and far reaching bonds of deception can be broken enough to change things in HH, or that the hearts of the leaders would ever be open to hear God speak the truth to them. I had that faith until I saw the leaders' response in the news article. God forgive me for having let go of it, and thank God for returning that faith in His greatness and his powerful love for each sheep that goes astray. The Bible tells us He will seek the lost sheep until He finds it. He never gives up. Luke 15:4 4 "Which one of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one that is lost until he finds it? This is true also for you were cast out of HH and your faith shipwrecked. God will not leave you alone, He is pursuing you. When your heart returns to Jesus, He will rejoice along with all the angles in heaven. Like the parable of the prodigal son; His arms will be wide open and there will be nothing in the way of His full embrace. Do not wait any longer. HH doctrine is not of not God and it does not portray the extent of Gods love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness. Neither do it's patterns have the power to heal and change a man from the inside out starting with his heart. Cry out to Jesus, repent of your sins, and He will be faithful and forgive you. Believe in the saving power of His sacrifice and His resurrection. Ask Him to abide in you and be your Lord and Savior. You can be born again and He can create in you a clean heart. Ask the Lord to lead you to someone you can trust to encourage you in your walk. Read the Bible asking God for understanding and direction. FH | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 680 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
“Where two or more agree, asking in MY Name….” Please pray with me. Here I am again Lord, asking. As your Word says, I will keep asking. I am asking that your truth be revealed to every man, woman, and child, who has ever been touched by the deception I knew at HH. I am asking the real Jesus, the one whose price paid it all, the one who abides in the hearts of God’s children, and changes us by the power of His death and resurrection, be known to each member, ex-member and visitor. "Now to Him Who, by the (action of His) power that is at work within us, is able to (carry out His purpose and) do superabundantly, far over and above all that we (dare) ask or think – infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes or dreams - To Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever. Amen – so be it." (Ephesians 3:20-21) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2112 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
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| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2113 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
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| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 185 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.92.210 |
http://www.rickross.com/reference/youth/youth6.html Does this sound familiar? | ||
| praxaluh Senior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 1027 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Yes, there is a similar mentality that can be expressed against YWAM as is expressed here against HH. The 'anti-cult' agenda can be manifested in many ways and forms, and becomes a breeding ground for the worst forms of occultism, confusion and blind anger. YWAM in Colorado was recently attacked by a young man who was into satanism (also under anti-depressant 'medication', psychotropic drugs) and had been rejected or disfellowshipped from YWAM, which is viewed by some as a 'cult'. Two of their members lost their lives (Tiffany Johnson, 26, from Minnesota, and Philip Crouse, 24) and two others were injured. Later, when he attacked a church, a woman church member, a voluntary guard and former police officer, defended the rest of the church by taking down, shooting, the offender, who it is reported then committed suicide. Factnet does not seem to mention this much (I only checked quickly) perhaps since it is an indication of some of the difficulties in their attempt to paint those 'un-orthodox' as a cult. That there is a dark side to the 'anti-cult' movement. From the heydays of the kidnapping deprogrammers in the 70's and 80's to the type of psychological encouragement it can give to belittle and rail against and attack Christian groups. Few have discussed this movement directly, including how it is built on secularist and atheist foundations. Perhaps the Bobgans in their psychoheresy writings (which have exposed drug abuse by 'Christian' therapists) have touched on this. And HH has one excellent book on these issues, researching deeply on the roots of the 'anti-Christian-cult' mentality. Robert J. Lifton, who is mentioned in the article above, is in a sense the doctrinal architect of the anti-cult movement, so it is especially helpful to see the fullness of his views and beliefs. Actually I expected to find a top-thread here discussing things like the satanic and drug aspects of the deranged young man, and so far have not found it on Factnet. However this is in some ways, sadly, such a familiar scenario, I do not look that hard. At least one theology forum is at least noting how often folks who go into deadly rages are under the 'care' of our doctors and medicines. However, in the incident mentioned we had a new combination of darknesses. Please, I do not all mention this to start a big thread here, since it is unlikely to be discussed in an edifying manner, however with YWAM being mentioned, and recent memorial services, I think some folks might want to be aware of some of these dynamics. Upon private request I can email the links to an article and discussion or two. Shalom, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com (Message edited by praxaluh on December 15, 2007) | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 216 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.92.210 |
Look at this! http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/41251.html?1198521932 I had a roommate that was horribly used by Agape Force in the late 70s or early 80s. It is a letter of repentance. He was to sell the Bullfrogs and Butterflies record door to door. If he didn't sell enough records he was screamed at and threatened. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 220 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
“To prevent inquiry is among the worst of evils.” —Thomas Holcroft “Freedom was given to humanity by God. But, governments, if they can help it, never give freedom. They just hand out slavery with slogans.” —Taylor Caldwell (churches have governments too.) | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
"If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ." GALATIANS 1:10. "Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. Your commands make me wiser than my enemies, for they are ever with me. I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes. I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts. I have kept my feet from every evil path so that I might obey your Word. I have not departed from your laws, for you yourself have taught me. How sweet are your promises to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore I hate every wrong path." PSALM 119: 97-104. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
These Holy Scriptures can and do come to pass through a relationship with Jesus Christ alone. |
