| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
Graffiti at school leads to 4 arrests Published in the Courier News on March 1, 2002 By TONY SCLAFANI Staff Writer BRIDGEWATER -- Four Somerset County Vocational-Technical High School students were arrested for allegedly spray-painting satanic images, anti-Hispanic remarks and elaborately drawn sexual organs on their school, the township's high school and a truck company, police said Thursday. Christopher Cap, 18, of Raritan Borough, two 17-year-old boys from Franklin and Somerville and a 16-year-old Bridgewater boy were charged Wednesday with three counts of criminal mischief and trespassing after being questioned at police headquarters, Lt. Richard Borden said. Found at: http://www.c-n.com/news/c-n/story/0,2111,525496,00.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Gruesome discovery at church viewed as hate crime • Police interview residents in Shannock Village, seeking information about the mutilated head of a cat found there. BY ALEX KUFFNER Journal Staff Writer CHARLESTOWN -- Police are investigating an alleged hate crime after a cat's head and a boot scrawled with satanic symbols were found hanging from the entrance to Shannock Baptist Church. The cat's head was found stuffed into a combat boot. Its eyes were removed and eyelids and mouth were sewn shut. What appeared to be satanic verses and symbols, including the numerals "666" and a five-pointed star known as a pentagram, were written on the outside of the boot. The boot was tied by its laces to the church's door handle. Found at: http://www.projo.com/report/html/southcounty/07147392.htm | ||
| Anonymous |
Satanic killers tell of blood drinking rites By Hannah Cleaver in Berlin (Filed: 18/01/2002) A WOMAN who says she and her husband killed a German friend with 66 knife wounds on orders from the devil has claimed that she became a satanist in Britain. @@@ Manuela Ruda and her husband, Daniel, have admitted killing their friend, Frank Haagen, "for Satan". She said she got a taste for vampirism and the occult while in London and Scotland. She appeared at the regional court in Bochum in full gothic garb, her head partly shaved to reveal an upside down crucifix and a target tattooed on her skull. Mrs Ruda, 23, gave a chilling account of drinking blood from volunteers contacted on the internet. She said: "I was in England and Scotland, met people and vampires in London. We went out at night, to cemeteries, in ruins and in the woods. "We drank blood together, from willing donors. You can't drink from the arteries, no-one is allowed that. I had implanted pegs put in the teeth which were pulled out and were replaced with fangs. "I also slept on graves and even allowed myself to be buried in a grave to test the feeling. I signed over my soul to Satan two and a half years ago." The couple have denied responsibility for killing Mr Haagen, 33, although both have admitted committing the crime. Mrs Ruda told the court: "It was not murder. We are not murderers. It was the execution of an order. Satan ordered us to. We had to comply. It was not something bad. It simply had to be. We wanted to make sure that the victim suffered well." @@@ Mrs Ruda said she and her 26-year-old husband lured their victim to their flat. When they arrived a "strange force" and "other beings" were present. "We were sitting on the couch the whole time, then my husband stood up," she said. "He had terrible, glowing eyes and hit out with the hammer. "Frank stood up and said something, or wanted to say something. The knife was glowing and a voice told me: 'Stab him in the heart.' "He then sank down. I saw a light flickering around him. That was the sign that his soul was going down. We said a satanic prayer. "We were then exhausted, and alone, wanted to die ourselves. But the visitation was too short. We could no longer kill ourselves." After killing Mr Haagen the couple cut an occult star on his stomach, drank his blood from a bowl and had sex in an oak coffin in which Mrs Ruda usually slept. @@@ Mr Haagen's mutilated and partially-decomposed body was found next to the coffin in the living room. @@@ "Both believed in Satan, they worshipped him. A death list found in the flat contained the names of future victims. They drank his blood, slept in coffins and believed they would achieve immortality as vampires." @@@ http://web.archive.org/web/20020403214537/http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/18/wvamp18.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/18/ixworld.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Schoolmate left for dead because she was 'too pretty' The Europe pages - Observer special Paul Webster in Paris Sunday March 24, 2002 The Observer An abandoned old people's home where a 14-year-old high school girl was tortured by two of her schoolmates in a crime that has shocked France looks like a setting for a horror film. /// After learning that the knife used to torture the adolescent resembled the one used in the film Scream, newspapers have competed to find exotic pseudonyms to add a Hollywood touch to a story tainted by scare videos and devil worship. /// the torture session at the village of Saint-Vit in eastern France is unique for several reasons. The two alleged torturers, in custody in Mulhouse for alleged attempted murder, are from stable, middle-class families and study at a private Catholic school. Neither had a reputation for violence, but a public prosecutor has pointed out that the older girl had just seen Scream and the younger one had taken part in Satanic practices with skinheads in the local cemetery. 'They have both been subjected to damaging cultural influences,' the official, Jean-François Peretti, said. But why the alleged leader of the group, 'Priscilla', was ready to burn 'Kelly' to death as she lay bleeding on the cellar floor, perhaps only psychiatrists will be able to answer. The most favoured theory is that she was jealous of 'Kelly' because she was the prettiest girl in the class/// On a Saturday night outing, they forced their way into the deserted rest home and went to the attic where they drank beer and then slapped each other repeatedly as part of a ritual until 'Kelly' complained that 'Priscilla' was hitting her too hard. 'It was then that the older girl [on the alleged attempted murder charge] pulled out a carving knife from her bag and struck her victim several times in the body and face,' Peretti said. 'The victim was then dragged down stairs to the cellar where her wrists and throat were cut with pieces of glass.' The two alleged torturers went in search of petrol to set the house alight, but the local garage was closed. The younger girl asked her boyfriend to go to help save her friend. He ran away after seeing 'Kelly' lying in a pool of blood, but left the door open so that she could crawl out into the street. In hospital, the girl, who may have lost the full use of her hands, told her father: 'They tied me up, scalped me and wanted to set me alight.' 'My daughter is a very sweet girl and said she wanted to remain friends with her schoolmates, but could not explain why their usual games had taken such a horrifying turn,' the victim's father said. 'It seems to be a mixture of all sorts of things. Television, films, drink, Satan-worship and madness.' /// Extract from http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,673007,00.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Police have suspect in cat head hate crime By: DANA BRUNDAGE March 21, 2002 CHARLESTOWN - Police say they have a suspect in last month's hate crime involving the decapitated head of an animal. Sgt. Patrick McMahon of the Charlestown Police Department said Monday that they believe a man in his 20's, along with another man around the same age, are responsible for leaving the head of a cat in an army boot on the front of the Shannock Baptist Church on March 1.--- Along with the boot was a letter written in a satanic language.--- The suspect, who was a resident of the Shannock village at the time of the incident, has recently moved to Missouri, and therefore Charlestown Police cannot make the arrest. http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=3595462&BRD=1717&PAG=461&dept_id=74264&rfi=6 | ||
| Anonymous |
Man Accused of Rape in Satanic Rituals Nears Release 04/09/2002 Associated Press The former Thurston County sheriff's deputy who pleaded guilty to raping his daughters in satanic rituals is nearing release from prison.*** He pleaded guilty in 1989 in Olympia in a case that that raised questions about recovered memory allegations. Sociologist Richard Ofshe (off-she) and University of Washington memory expert Elizabeth Loftus contend that Ingram's guilty plea was based on a false memory. They say he was encouraged by his pastor, a psychologist and police interrogators. They told him he'd be able to remember what happened if he confessed.*** http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_0409_news_satanic_rituals.5ba95546.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Satanic student group seeks funding at UWO By Eric Bradley of the Northwestern They don’t light candles, sacrifice goats or speak in tongues - but a recent court ruling guarantees a Satanic student group at the University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh will have access to thousands of dollars raised from stu-dent fees to pay for its activities. Admittedly, members of Obsidian Enlightenment use the name Satan as a way to shock people in realizing there are differing religious ideas on campus. They’ve been able to attract devout Christians to their weekly meetings where discussions on dogma, realism and religious sig-nificance last for hours. Some of the group’s 20 or so members are Satanists and the group intends to take their message beyond the cere-bral this fall. That’s when they are allowed to approach the student government and ask for thousands in student funds to promote its programs. ### They are fully entitled to the money after a four-year legal battle culminated in a federal court judge’s deci-sion that the way the UW-System school funded such groups was unconstitutional. The decision entitled groups like Obsidian Enligh-tenment to a "viewpoint neutral" funding process. ### "We have to be view-point neutral with all allocation de-cisions," Perlino said. "Obsidian Enlightenment should be able to get the same amount of funds for the same type of programs. "Freedom of religion does exist." ### The group intends to invite a speaker from the Church of Satan to campus sometime next fall. That is in addi-tion to other activities Kinderman and others have yet to develop, he said. "We don’t want to change people," Kinderman said. "We promote religious diversity on campus. We want people to learn how to think for themselves." Eric Bradley: (920) 426-6668 or ebrad-ley@smgpo.gannett.com http://www.wisinfo.com/northwestern/local/041602-6.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Satan Ban Exposes Mayor to Wrath MIKE SCHNEIDER Associated Press Writer INGLIS, Fla. (AP) - The last time an agent of temptation came to this sleepy hamlet near the Gulf Coast, throngs of screaming girls followed his every move. Forty-years later, a more pernicious force than Elvis Presley was apparently stalking the town - Satan. Or so the mayor believed. Mayor Carolyn Risher began seeing growing examples of what she deemed Satan's work: instances of fathers abusing their children, increased drug use and children wearing devil costumes for Halloween. So Risher did what she thought any good public servant would do for the town's 1,400 residents. She wrote a proclamation banning Satan from the town's three square miles. "We exercise our authority over the devil in Jesus' name," the Nov. 5-dated proclamation read. "By that authority ... we command all satanic and demonic forces to cease their activities and depart the town of Inglis." The mayor ended the proclamation by saying she was taking this action "in accordance with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." What followed was an international uproar that has raised questions about the appropriateness of religion in government. Risher has received hundreds of letters, from as far away as Australia and Spain, praising her for taking a stand against evil. She also has been condemned by advocates of church and state separation.-------------http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/nation/3066636.htm | ||
| Anonymous |
Satanism’s Toll Rises as Suicides Spread in Germany By Martha Kleder ***Parents and teachers in Europe are concerned about an increasing number of teenage suicides linked to satanic activity. Rural Germany, in the state of Saxony, which was part of East Germany until the Berlin Wall fell, has had 15 occult-related youth suicides in less than two years. Four other youths survived suicide attempts. ***Kurt Biedenkopf, Premier of the German state of Saxony, has promised a full investigation into devil-worship in the region “to determine what forces are driving our children to these desperate acts.” That commitment was made after three Reichenbach teens leapt to their deaths on August 26. A police spokesman told Deutsche Presse-Agentur the teens were known to be heavily involved with Satanism. Authorities say the suicides are closely related to the Blue Rose cult, which preys on the boredom of rural, unemployed youths and encourages suicide via the Internet. The Internet has played a major role in making satanic rituals look glamorous, and Saxony parents are confiscating computers and mobile phones from their children in an effort to halt the trend, according to Allan Hall, The Times’ Berlin correspondent. Others have sent their children out of the region to live with friends and relatives. Teachers in the area of Klietz, Germany, have told police and youth authorities about a “depressed atmosphere” hanging over their classes. “It is very troubling what is happening to our youth,” added one unnamed headmaster. Local vicar Andreas Breit said: “The occult scene is thriving in this region. They have had black masses in the ruins of buildings and in the open. They have rituals and swear oaths.” There has also been evidence of ritualistic animal sacrifice.*** “There is no doubt the Internet means that many more youngsters can dip into areas of the occult without realizing what they are [getting] themselves into,” he said. *****Authorities in Colorado reported concern after two cats were found slain in a ritualistic fashion in a Superior, Colorado, playground in late July. The killings followed a similar incident in Jefferson County that occurred June 21. Authorities in Boulder County say they are concerned the killings may be related to a sacrifice or ceremony. ***On August 20, the San Miguel family of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, came home to the news that their pet dogs had been killed in ritualistic fashion. Orlando Aguirre, the Lehigh County Humane Society’s police officer, told The Express-Times he suspects the slayings involved “some kind of witchcraft.” The same day, August 20, four people were arrested in Ardmore, Oklahoma, following a rash of arson fires, including one that destroyed a church. The arrests of Donnie James Clayburn, 19, and Alesha Michelle Denham, 28, came after fire destroyed the Milo Baptist Church on August 13. Two private residences were also set on fire, as were several grass fires. Two others, Krista Lane Huffaker, 19, and Phillip John Tovar, 21, were arrested on August 18 for allegedly desecrating more than 70 graves at a local cemetery. Gene Autry Baptist Church, a school in Springer, and the Gene Autry Museum were also vandalized during that time. Carter County Sheriff Harvey Burkhart told KOCO-TV that the four were self-professed Satanists. He was relieved the arrests took only a week. “Sometimes you never catch ’em. We were sure hoping there was more than one, because usually when there’s more than one somebody talks, and that’s what happened,” he said. Burkhart said the group had planned to burn another church in the Sulphur area. “They also discussed burning a black church,” he said.**** rest is at http://cultureandfamily.org/report/2001-09-05/i_germany.shtml | ||
| Anonymous |
Satanists on attempted murder charges 04jun02 AUTHORITIES in Germany have charged two members of a satanic cult with attempted murder for allegedly stabbing a man repeatedly to drink his blood. The superior court in the eastern German town of Neubrandenburg have remanded a 19-year-old woman and 21-year-old man in custody as suspects in the stabbing of a 40-year-old man. The victim survived the surprise attack.**** http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4446412%255E401,00.html | ||
| Anonymous |
SATANIC ATTACK Jun 5 2002 A 39-year-old German man is fighting for his life after being attacked by Satanists. They stabbed him, then drained and drank his blood in Neubrandenburg, Berlin. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/page.cfm?objectid=11927294&method=full&siteid=89488 | ||
| Anonymous |
To all of those who are greatly disturbed by the above articles. I would like you to read what God says about Satan! He is a real being. And he does contribute to all the pain and evil in this world! This verse from 2 Corinthians explains why & how! - 2 Corinthians 4:4 - In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. One of the greatest accomplishments that Satan has done to us as people, is to either make people believe in him, that somehow he will do good for you, or to have people not believe in him at all! Or even worse - to have people not believe in the existance of either God or Satan! They both exist! Now Satan has a grip on the mentality of todays people! All the immorality that did not exist so much 30 years ago, he is speeding up today! - Ephesians 2:1,2 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; - wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Satan is appearing as Atheism, Witchcraft, Evolution, Drugs, Incest, Rape, Murder, Sex Abuse, Terrorism, Hatred, Rascism, and any other thing of hate you can think of. And to each person in each category, it is appealing to that person. He blinds them, that they cannot see the wrong in what they are doing. They have an advocate with the Devil. Excuses like "temporarily insane" are used when crimes are commited! But most of you should agree, they are accountable, and blinded but this Satan! - 2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh bout, seeking whom he may devour: And this is what he thinks of himself - Notice how so many people think the same way! - Isaiah 14:12-15 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O lucifer son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most high. - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. And he has blinded people who have had tragedies in their lives, into believing that God has caused these things! Here is the truth about that! - -Ezekiel 28:14 - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. - By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.(The Planets) Another great accomplishment is that he has deceived almost every person on this earth into believing that you get to heaven by doing "good works" and being a "nice Person" This is not true! Here is God's anwere to that! Galatians 3:1 - O Foolish Galatians, who hath bewithched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? - Galatians 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: - Romans 8:3 - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: - Romans 8:2 - For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. - Galatians 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. - Galatians 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. - Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Titus 3:3-7 - For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. - But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost; - which he shed on us abundantly though Jesus Christ our Saviour. - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. There are many more verses proving that going to heaven is not by how good you are. Do you every lie, get jealous, envy someone, idolize someone or something, hate someone, if you have done any of those or worse, than you have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All you have to do is Confess that you believe that Jesus was sent here to die for your sins, repent of the sins that you have commited in your life, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is your lord, tell him that you believe in your heart that he died for your sins and rose from the dead, and tell him how sorry you are that you didn't turn to him to take your sins away. All he wants you to do is admit you can't be perfect by yourself! So when you see God, he doesn't see your sins anymore, Because when Jesus hung on the cross, he took them from you. He's kind of like your lawyer, he stands in your place. It doesn't matter if you have murdered someone, or are a Satan worshipper, or a lesbian, or a homosexual, or even an ex fellon, or a rapist, or a child molester - If you except Jesus as your saviour - you will be forgiven. All the other verses that show good works, are just an outward display to the world of the inward change that Jesus has made in you! There is hope for all people - no matter what you have done! -1 Corinthians 1:26-30 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: - But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; - and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: - That no flesh should glory in his presence. - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemtion: That does not mean that once you are saved you purposely choose to continue in your evil and sinful ways, but when you do no matter if your saved or not, you will still be saved. Just run to Jesus and tell him you messed up and ask for his forgiveness - and he will! So how does it say to get saved in the Bible? - Romans 10:9,10 - If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved - For with the heart man believeth unto rightiousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. That is the only way you will be saved from the grips of Satan, in whatever form he is deceiving you at this moment. You do not go to hell for the bad choices and sins you commit, you go to this judgement for rejecting Jesus Christ! It would be like I gave you a million dollars and you said I don't want it. No matter what you believe, think about these things, look at the world around us! For those that don't believe in what is written in here - What if the Christians are write, and what is in the Bible is correct! Do you want to take a chance? Please Email me with your responses or decision to God's Warrior for Christ at:Saumc@bright.net | ||
| Anonymous |
"What if the Christians are write" ...and what if they can't? | ||
| Anonymous |
Boy denies suicide role Jun 18 2002 The Western Mail A SCHOOLBOY obsessed with serial killers and satanism talked a classmate into attempting suicide, a court heard yesterday. The girl threw herself off a jetty into the sea but was rescued by fishermen as she lay unconscious. Her 15-year-old boyfriend walked home and waited 90 minutes before calling the emergency services. The boy, who cannot be named, denies attempting to procure her suicide. Paul Thomas, prosecuting, told Swansea Crown Court how the pair met in comprehensive school after she moved to Aberystwyth last year. They went to his home during a lunch hour where she drank "a great deal" of Tequila before apparently writing a suicide note. It was dated and timed by the boy. The pair then walked to a jetty on Aberystwyth's seafront where the boy pushed her towards the edge. He threw one of her boots into the sea and shouted, "Fetch." Mr Thomas said, "She remembers him physically pushing her towards the edge. She does not remember being pushed off so the prosecution case cannot be that he actually pushed her himself." She fell 25ft on to rocks at a time when the tide was coming in rapidly, suffering head and brain injuries plus a broken thigh and cheekbone. She was in a coma for days but has now made a recovery. Mr Thomas said the defendant had an unhealthy interest in people such as Charles Manson. Police found his bedroom wall had graffiti such as, "Dead women don't say no" and "To watch you bleed turns me on". Writing on the wall also contained a promise to be as evil as possible and a dedication of the boy's life to Satan. From : http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0600uk/page.cfm?objectid=11959974&method=full&siteid=50082 | ||
| Fredric L. Rice |
It's annoying to see newspapers claim that these crimes are all being conducted by "Satanists." They're not. There are perhaps at most 8,000 Satanists around the world and none of them have ever committed such crimes as are posted to this discussion board. Satanists don't believe in the Christian "Satan" god; only Christians believe in the "Satan" god. There's enough information about Satanism posted to the Internet that newspaper reporters can't be excused for not knowing that Satanists have nothing to do with any of these crimes. Calling such people "Satanists" is utterly uncalled for. | ||
| Anonymous |
Sixth mutilated corpse revives 'monster' fears Hilary Clarke in Rome reports The discovery of a series of profaned corpses of elderly people in Florence has cast a macabre shadow across the Florentine summer and reawakened concern about the activities of satanic sects in the ancient city. Some commentators are linking the mutilations with a police investigation into the region's most famous serial murder case, that of the Monster of Florence. The aspiring satanists last struck on Thursday night. A lump of flesh was cut from the cheek of the corpse of an 80-year-old man with surgical precision while he lay in the chapel of rest of the Careggi hospital in the northern outskirts of the Tuscan city. Police believe at least two people were involved in the profanation, the sixth in less than two weeks, despite heavy police security there since the first corpse was discovered with lumps of flesh missing on June 22. Each time they struck, the perpetrators dodged security cameras and a heavy police guard to cut flesh from the face of another body, this time an elderly man, opening his eyes before leaving the morgue. All the victims were 80 or older. According to Cecilia Gatto Trocchi, of the University of Chieti, an expert in the occult, the profaning of corpses is one of the basic tests to be admitted into an esoteric or satanic sect of which there are an estimated 22 in Florence . 'It is a challenge to the city that is now crystal clear. It is the challenge of a madman, or maybe something worse. I can't find the words to describe someone who does something like this. But we will get him,' said the sheriff, Graziono Cioni. Allegations of devil worship among high-ranking members of Florentine society resurfaced last year, following new evidence about the serial killings of the Monster of Florence case which has horrified Italians for more than 30 years. Michele Giuttari, the investigating magistrate, has received death threats, despite the fact that the chief suspect is dead, and police have issued a news blackout on their investigations into the murders and now into the profanations at the morgue. Investigators started working again on the Monster of Florence case after it transpired that the man widely thought to be the monster, Pietro Pacciani, who was convicted of the crimes but later acquitted, might himself have been murdered. Between 1968 and 1985, eight courting couples were murdered while parked in the hills near Florence. The attacker used the same weapon each time, a 22-calibre Beretta pistol. The men were killed first; some of the women had their left breast and pubic hair removed and genitals mutilated. Four times the police arrested suspects, only for each case to collapse when the killer struck again. In 1985 an anonymous letter sent to police identified Pacciani as the monster. Six years passed, though, before the rough-handed, semi-literate peasant became the prime suspect because police were looking for someone with a more intelligent psychological profile. Pacciani's life was a case study in domestic violence. In 1951 he caught his long-term girlfriend with another man, whom he stabbed to death before raping the woman as she lay beside the corpse. He was convicted of murder and spent 13 years in prison. Later, married to another woman, he was imprisoned in 1987 for an additional four years for sexually molesting his two daughters. Still, the prosecutor's case proving Pacciani to be the Monster of Florence was almost entirely circumstantial. There was no eyewitness nor any irrefutable evidence of his involvement, apart from a piece of a pistol used in the crimes sent to the police along with the anonymous letter. During the period when the 16 murders were committed, Pacciani was employed as a farmhand, a factory worker and a gardener at an old people's home while living in several small villages, all within an hour's drive of the crime scenes . Even though the presiding judge expressed scepticism over the strength of the case, the jury found Pacciani guilty of seven of the eight double murders. The trial, which was broadcast live, transfixed Italy and the packed courtroom drew swarms of spectators, including Thomas Harris, the reclusive American author of Silence Of The Lambs who set part of his subsequent bestseller, Hannibal, in Florence. When the guilty verdict was pronounced, Pacciani was dragged from court howling that he was 'as innocent as Christ on the cross'. Fifteen months later he was acquitted on appeal and died in 1998 before he was due to be retried. A question mark still hangs over why Pacciani was given drugs almost certain to be fatal to a hard-drinking, heavy-smoking 73-year-old diabetic with a heart problem. The suspicion is he was killed to stop him revealing the true identity of the monster, or, indeed, monsters. Last year police investigating the case raided the houses of Aurelio Mattei, a psychiatrist who works for the secret services, Sisde, and of Francesco Bruno, a criminologist and television chat show personality who reportedly had his name on one of the prescriptions of the drugs given to Pacciani. The two men were questioned for nine hours and had computer discs and books about the killings confiscated. Neither was charged . Mattei wrote a book in 1992, before Pacciani was convicted, that alludes to evidence in the Monster of Florence case only uncovered by Italian police after the investigation was reopened earlier this year. Bruno for his part alluded to a satanic sect being behind the murders in a report about the case in 1985, shortly before the last killing. The report was written for the Sisde but was never given to the police as it should have been. In fact, it never got further than a senior Sisde official Vincenzo Parisi, who was later promoted. The report suggested that the body parts of the mutilated murder victims were used in satanic rituals at a remote villa. Pacciani, who left behind two houses and more than $75,000 in cash, was certainly too rich to have been just an odd-job peasant and police believe he acted as a courier who delivered the body parts to the satanists. The rites, police suspect, could have been carried out at the old people's home called Villa Verde where Pacciani at one point worked as a gardener. At the time the villa's residents included the father of Florence's deputy attorney, Francesco Fleury. This could be the villa mentioned by Bruno in his report. Indeed, two nurses who once worked at Villa Verde reported to police satanic rites organised by the home's owner and her daughter, but these allegations were always denied. at http://www.sundayherald.com/26022 | ||
| Anonymous |
Walker teen accused of murder By BOB ANDERSON banderson@theadvocate.com Florida parishes bureau WALKER -- A 16-year-old boy is accused of murdering a man in Walker and attempting to dismember his body, Livingston Parish sheriff's deputies said Tuesday. The youth's mother returned home Monday afternoon to find the body in her son's bedroom, Detective Supervisor Norris Hull said. Investigators said they found human skulls made of plastic in the room and the numbers "666," associated with satanic rites, on the walls. After questioning Monday night, the teen-ager confessed to the killing, but would say nothing when asked about the motive, Hull said. The youth said he bound and strangled the man and attempted to dismember him with a handsaw, Hull said. Authorities said they found lacerations on the body where the youth attempted to saw off an arm. Apparently, he decided the dismemberment was too difficult and gave up, investigators said. ***A federal fingerprint search finally identified the victim as Joseph F. Trahan, 40, whose last known address was 6240 S. River Road, Brusly. He had told people in the Walker area he was homeless, investigators said. ***Investigators said they found a shovel in the back yard of the residence and evidence of attempts to dig holes, but the digger appeared to have stopped after hitting roots. ***Investigators said they have information the man had been allowed to spend the night on the couch and was killed Monday morning. An autopsy determined that the victim had been strangled, Hull said. *** http://www.theadvocate.com/stories/071002/new_walkerteen001.shtml | ||
| Anonymous |
SON OF SAM: I WAS DEVIL'S SOLDIER By FREDRIC U. DICKER July 12, 2002 -- ALBANY - "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz told state officials earlier this week that he was "a soldier for the devil" when he carried out his horrifying killing spree, according to parole hearing transcripts released yesterday. Berkowitz, in a shocking, 32-page transcript of his first hearing before the state Parole Board, said that during the murderous rampage that terrified New York 25 years ago and left six dead, he was also influenced by "the satanic bible" and the impact of several drug-infused "satanic parties." "I thought I was a soldier for the devil and all kinds of crazy things," he said. Berkowitz, 49, told officials he would drink wine and smoke marijuana at the parties, then kill... http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/45286.htm | ||
| Anonymous |
'Black magic' behind teen's cannibal slaying July 15 2002 at 06:32PM Kiev - Four Ukranians have been arrested on suspicion of luring an 18-year-old girl into a forest, dismembering her and eating parts of her body, police said on Monday. In a suspected satanic ritual, three men and a woman from Zhytomyr, northern Ukraine, killed the girl with two knife-thrusts to the heart, said Viktor Kurbatov from the local interior ministry. The suspects, aged from 21 to 53, scalped the young woman, boiled her decapitated head and then ate it. Then they cut out her heart, her liver, her kidneys and her flesh to make minced meat, according to Kurbatov. Several days after the murder, police arrested the suspects when they were waiting to meet the girl's parents, from whom they had demanded a R30 000 ransom. Kurbatov said police found "several books on black magic" at the house of the 53-year-old lead suspect. - Sapa-AFP http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?click_id=24&art_id=qw1026749521199B226&set_id=1 | ||
| Anonymous |
'Goggaman' accused of Satanic sex rituals July 31 2002 at 10:19PM By Zelda Venter A young girl and her two brothers suffer from nightmares in which they see snakes and fire. They are hyperactive and can't stop talking about the Satanic and sadistic sexual rituals they allegedly suffered at the hands of a man who has been dubbed the "Goggaman" because he allegedly made his victims eat insects. Robin Classen, 38, is facing 10 charges in the Pretoria High Court, including rape, indecent assault and abduction. He allegedly raped the girl and sodomised the boys. :::The siblings were living in Schubart Park flats in Pretoria when the crimes were allegedly committed between January and September 2000. :::"They keep on talking about the Satanist and sadistic sexual rituals they were exposed to. Since their ordeal the children have nightmares in which they see snakes and fire. They also dream about the accused whom they believe wants to do them harm," Pieterse said. She told the court that one of the reasons the children were so terrified was that Classen threatened to kill them and their mother. All three children were so traumatised by what had happened to them that they were now hyperactive, Pieterse testified. The incidents had such a severe impact on their mental capability that the boys were at a special school and the girl was in a special class. They also suffered from severe headaches and stomach pains because of tension, she added. :::The hearing continued behind closed doors. Then the children - a very pretty blond-haired, blue-eyed girl and her two brothers - relived their nightmare ordeal. It is claimed that Classen grabbed the children on a number of occasions and took them to various places, where they were tied up. Apart from raping and sodomising them, the children were allegedly also subjected to other sexual rituals, had knives thrown at them and were hit with a sjambok. They were also allegedly forced to smoke and Classen is said to have drawn a cross with a knife on one of the children's wrists. ex http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?click_id=13&art_id=ct20020731221859619B250820&set_id=1 | ||
| Anonymous |
Oz court lights up bloody mad devil of a case August 12 2002 at 09:29AM Sydney - Two Australian teenagers joined their father in stabbing their mother to death because they believed she was Satanic, prosecutors told a Sydney court on Monday. The woman was stabbed and had surgical scissors shoved through her nose into her brain outside her home near Sydney in October 2001, Patrick Barrett told the New South Wales state supreme court. The father, 40, his 18-year-old son and 16-year-old daughter all pleaded not guilty to murdering the woman on the grounds of mental illness. Barrett said the father told police his wife deserved to die because she was a devil worshipper, the daughter thought her mother was a demon and the son believed she was connected with Satan. The names of the defendants and the victim cannot be released. The trial was adjourned until Thursday. - Sapa-AFP http://www.itechnology.co.za/index.php?click_id=2024&art_id=qw1029135781569B223&set_id=1 | ||
| Anonymous |
Two teens charged with sacrificing a live cat Tue, August 13, 200 Copyright 2002 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. WENTWORTH, N.C. - Two Mayodan teens accused of sacrificing a live cat during a satanic ritual have been indicted by the Rockingham County Grand Jury. Rockingham County sheriff's investigators say the teens, Rocky L. Thomas, 19, and Derrick Smith, 17, killed the gray and white cat during a September 2001 incident. The cat's death was discovered several months later when Smith wrote a school paper detailing how they nailed the cat to a tree, gutted it and beat it with a stick "until the cat's inside's came out," court records said. Investigators now say the two are "into satanic worshipping."... The rest is at http://www.journalnow.com/wsj/news/MGBS56ZQT4D.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Kentucky suspends satanic services at state prison ©Associated Press September 1, 2002 LEXINGTON, Ky. -- The Kentucky Department of Corrections has suspended formal satanic worship services at the Green River Correctional Complex while officials work to shape a statewide policy on the practice. Inmates at Green River, a medium-security prison in Central City, had been allowed to hold weekly satanic services this summer as part of the official religious services calendar, said Lisa Carnahan, a Corrections spokeswoman. "We honestly didn't know it was on the religious calendar," Carnahan said after the Lexington Herald-Leader questioned the practice. "We are researching it to see what we are required to allow under the law. But we've found information that indicates that satanic services could be a threat to the institutions, so for now we won't aid or abet satanic worship," she said. Under federal law and U.S. Supreme Court decisions, correctional institutions may not prohibit the exercise of inmates' religious freedom, as long as the practice of the recognized religion does not compromise the safety of other inmates or the staff, said Joe Weedon, manager of government affairs for the American Correctional Association. Satanic services were suspended Thursday at Green River after the newspaper's inquiry. Inmates of at least two of the state's other 14 prisons practice Satanism on their own, Carnahan said. +++The issue arose at Green River a few months ago when one inmate sought permission to practice Satanism. Warden Patti Webb decided it was safer to give inmates a specific time and place to worship, where they would be monitored, rather than letting them practice among themselves on the prison yard, Carnahan said. +++Kentucky officials have learned that policies in other states vary. For instance, prison officials in Texas, where 150 inmates say they follow Satanism, prohibit the services. ex http://www.sptimes.com/2002/09/01/Worldandnation/Kentucky_suspends_sat.shtml | ||
| Anonymous |
Man featured on TV show found, arrested in Oregon Associated Press CANYONVILLE, Ore. _ A self-described Satanist featured on "America's Most Wanted" and sought on child sex charges in Virginia was arrested Wednesday near Canyonville by federal marshals. Russell John Smith, 37, was arrested about a half-mile from where his abandoned van was found Tuesday, said Eric Wahlstrom of the U.S. Marshal's Service in Portland. ...Smith is wanted in Virginia for allegedly involving a 12-year-old girl in satanic rituals that included having sex. His 12-year-old daughter, Tara Jenine Swiger-Smith, was with Smith when he was arrested. He is suspected of involving her in satanic rituals, but it has not been revealed if Smith's daughter was the same 12-year-old girl mentioned in police reports. .... http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=090502&ID=s1211031&cat=section.regional | ||
| Anonymous |
High school Satanism club prompts parental outrage Friday, September 27, 2002 - 10:04:13 AM MST By T.S. Mills-Faraudo SAN MATEO -- A group of San Mateo High School students trying to stir up controversy formed a club based on Satanism, a religion typically associated with hedonistic philosophy and with the rituals of black magic. Calling themselves The Satanic Thought Society, co-president of the club James Doolittle admits he originally started the club with his friend Matt Heeney to "rile things up a bit." But now that the two juniors have studied the teachings of Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan, they say Satanism helps people to express themselves. "Its (Satanism's) purpose is to turn man back into a natural state and not have him corrupted by religion," Doolittle said. +++While the Church of Satan does practice rituals, he said the club will not be doing this. +++Pam Cachay said she couldn't believe it when her 10th-grade daughter told her it was announced on the school's loudspeaker that a Satanism club had formed. "The parents I've talked to are outraged," she said. Her 15-year-old daughter, Larena Whattam, was equally offended when she heard about the club. "I was completely appalled. I'm a Christian and I love God," said Whattam, who is member of the school's Christian Club. +++Principal Jacqueline McEvoy is quick to point out that under the federal Equal Access Act for Secondary Schools, the school must allow this club to exist. +++"Lets face it, teenagers love to shock," he said. "The best thing to do about it is to not make a big deal." Staff writer T.S. Mills-Faraudo can be reached at 348-4338 or tmills@angnewspapers.com . ex http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87%257E11268%257E887397,00.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Four suspected satanic cult members arrested By Sara Carobbi Special to Italy Daily Pescara police on Tuesday arrested four men in various cities who are thought to be members of a satanic cult that abuses minors and corpses during rituals it has held since 1996. Those arrested were identified as Giovanni Carbotta, 30, the suspected mastermind of the cult and called "Reverend Jan Ash" by its members; Gaetano De Carne, 24, a Catania resident living in Pescara, and Italo Diodato and Amleto Raimondo, both 35 and photographers from Chieti. Carbotta was being held in Rome, and De Carne in Pescara, while the other two were under house arrest in Chieti. The four could face charges including kidnapping, administration of drugs, sexual abuse, smuggling of pornographic material, corpse theft and destruction, police said. The arrests were the culmination of an investigation that started in early 2001 into the group, known as the "Angels of Sodom." Conducted in the cities of Pescara, Rome, Chieti, and Catania, police said it revealed evidence that the suspected cult members had drugged minors and then photographed them in situations of group sexual abuse. Cult members reportedly used Carbotti's apartment and a cemetery near Pescara as the sites of rituals that abused at least ten minors, both male and female, whom they picked up outside schools and in seaside resorts in Pescara. The rituals also reportedly both used and destroyed corpses stolen from cemeteries. Pictures of the rituals were distributed among followers of the cult, which police said was inspired by Charles Manson's Church of Satan. That cult achieved notoriety in 1969 with the brutal murder of Sharon Tate, who was then the pregnant wife of director Roman Polansky. Carbotta was said to drip his own blood from his wrists into the mouths of his victims, who were drugged with substances including LSD, speed, and alcohol. In a communion-like ritual, they were given stamps from which they licked drugs. Among the objects found by police in connection with the rituals were skeletons, voodoo dolls, daggers and inverted crucifixes. Pescara's police chief, Angelo Lo Scalzo, on Tuesday appealed to unidentified victims of the abuse to come forward. According to the online paper Il Nuovo, the sect was not driven by money, of which it had little. Instead, Carbotta was most interested in expanding its membership, said Enrico de Simone, the head of the investigation. http://www.italydaily.concento.it/ | ||
| Anonymous |
HELP PLEASE 1960'S CALIFORNIA....I am looking for information for a friend. His doctor needs to know of any cults operating in the Novato California, Hamilton AFB, or San Rafael area in the 1960's. Your help means more than you know. | ||
| Rev. T. Kidd |
I have met perhaps three 'real' Satanists in my life and none of them were in anyway described like those you used 'Satan' as a scapegoat for their personal actions and crimes against others. In fact, all three of the 'Satanist' I have met were intelligent and articulate individuals who actually had a high regard for the life of animals and children for that matter and hated those who did crimes against them and blamed it on them. The real Satanists that I know all practice a form of 'self-worship'. That is they worship their own person and live only for themselves-but within obvious common sense ethical and moral boundries. Any intelligent person should be able to see these murders, rapes, and abuse are caused by groups and individuals using Satanism as a scapegoat instead of actually taking responsibility for their own actions. | ||
| Anonymous |
Oh sure Rev T Kidd you expect me to believe that Satanist are all intelligent people who care about animals and children huh? I know that some of this crazy stuff that is going on is done by people who claim to worship Satan. There are people who actually worship what he stands for. Have you ever heard of the Church of Satan headed by Anton Levay? He's dead now but he and his group believed the opposite of what God teaches, that is what satan stands for. Hate,envy,strife,revenge, etc, etc and not always within moral boundaries. Because you have only met three "real" satanists does not mean there are not many more. Are you a Rev in God's church? If you are I am surprised you would defend somone who claims to be a satanist. | ||
| Anonymous |
<Spam Deleted by Administrator> | ||
| Anonymous |
Attacks on horses linked to satanic rituals Paul Harris Sunday November 10, 2002 The Observer A series of attacks on horses across the country has been linked to devil worship and black magic groups who carry out bizarre rituals on helpless animals. Horse owners have been warned by welfare experts to examine their animals for signs of hair being cut or plaited, blood samples being taken or any indications of stress or sexual assault. There have been more than a dozen of the night-time attacks, which started late last month. They have taken place in Scotland, Wales, East Anglia and Nottinghamshire. In two attacks on horses near Aberdeen, the animals had their tails hacked off. In one of the incidents, a horse's dock - an extension of the spinal cord - was deeply cut by the attacker. Other horses have had snips taken from their their manes and tails, which have been 'plaited' with a sticky substance. Investigators have found small stone cairns in the fields where the attacks have taken place. The stones have been covered in burnt horse hair and candles. Black magic symbols, including pentagrams and double-headed axes, have been discovered drawn or carved nearby. :::The International League for the Protection of Horses has offered a £5,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of those carrying out the attacks. Horse-owners have been told to increase and vary the times they check on their animals and to report suspicious people near their properties. In some parts of the country 'horse watch' groups have been set up. :::Experts are worried that the attacks will escalate into serious assaults on horses, such as slashings and mutilations. But they also say tampering with a horse by a stranger can be traumatic for an animal. 'Some of the horses' tails have been very badly hacked. It is very stressful for them,' said Graham. Members of Britain's growing community of pagans have also been enlisted to help identify those responsible for the attacks. A representative of the Pagan Federation - an umbrella body for a variety of spiritual beliefs - is assisting the Scottish SPCA. Andy Norfolk, a spokesman for the federation, said all mainstream pagan beliefs held life as sacred and would not sanction attacks on animals. There have been previous attacks perpetrated by 'horse rippers' who slashed horses around the genitals. The worst spate of incidents occurred between 1983 and 1993 when more than 160 horses were believed to have been mutilated. No convictions were ever made. paul.harris@observer.co.uk Ex http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,837057,00.html | ||
| Anonymous |
I HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATING NOVATO CALIFORNIA FOR OVER 9 YEARS.IN MY FINDINGS I MUST STATE COMPLETE HORROR. NOT ONLY ARE THE RESIDENTS OF NOVATO MAINLY SATANIST, BUT THE WHOLE TOWN IS RUN BY THEM THEY ARE IN ALL THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS AS TEACHERS,POLICE DEPARMENT IS ALSO GROSSLEY CORRUPTED BY THEM.THAT IS WHY THERE IS A LARGE, LARGE CRIME RATE WITH NO ARRESTS OR INTEREST IN CHILDREN.NO SKATE PARKS.NO POOL HALLS,NO ACTIVITYS FOR YOUNG KIDS TO ENJOY. THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THESE KIDS TO FALL BACK ON EXCEPT THE STREETS WITCH ARE CORRUPTED WITH POLICE INFORMENTS DEALING DRUGS AND WORSHIPING SATAN OPENLY KILLING MANY DOGS CATS AND TURNING THYE NEXT YOUNGSTER ON TO A FLOOOD OF COCAINE,METH,POT AND BOOZE THE POLICE TURN THIER HEADS.AS FOR ME MY LIFE AND MY KIODS LIVES ARE IN GRAVE DANGER AFTER I WENT TO THE F.B.I. AND TRIED TO CHANGE THINGS,WITH NO HELP FROM MY LOCAL F.B.I. I WAS BEAT UP BY THE NOVATO POLICE.I HAVE NO CRIMINAL HISTORY AND PAY NEARLY 200.000 IN STATE AND FEDERAL TAXES A YEAR,I AM NOW WORKING WITH THE MEDIA BUT EVERY DAY IS A STRUGGLKE TO KEEP MY KIDS AND FAMILY ALIVE AND SAFE .THESE SATANISTS BREATH BDOWN MY NECK AND FOLLOW MY KIDS ON AN HOURLY BASIS.PLEASE HELP STOP THIS CRIME AND REPORT IT TO THE MEDIA THEY ARE OUR ONLY HOPE IN EXPOISING THIS DARK EVIL LEARKING IN A CLANDESTINE WAY.GOD BLESS AND TELL ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOVATO CAN KILL/SELL DRUGS /WORSHIP SATAN /AND POISON OUR NEXT GENERATION AND NO ONE GIVES A SHIT.......ESPECIALLY THE NOVATO POLICE DEPATMENT.SINCERLY A WORRIER SHADED ONLY IN TRUTH AND LIGHT FROM MY KING (COVERTOP) | ||
| Anonymous |
Texas Man Gets Jail for Cannibalizing Mom By ANGELA K. BROWN Associated Press Writer January 8, 2003, 6:05 PM EST FORT WORTH, Texas -- A man who beat his 79-year-old mother to death, cut her open and ate some of her heart was sentenced Wednesday to 30 years in prison. Joey Cala, 41, had pleaded guilty Monday to murder in the 2001 death of Lydia Cala, a 76-pound retired teacher and church volunteer. According to Cala's sister, he wanted their mother's money. But there was no indication the inheritance amounted to much. The woman lived in a modest, one-story house. +++ Cala will be eligible for parole in 15 years. A medical examiner testified that Cala bludgeoned his mother to death, probably with his fists or feet, then cut open her chest and abdomen and removed some organs. Police found Cala standing over his mother's body, both of them covered in blood, in her bedroom in the home they shared in suburban Hurst. An officer saw Cala eat what appeared to be an organ, police said. According to police, Cala said that he worshipped the devil and that they had interrupted his sacrifice. The house had been ransacked, and police found his mother's will on a chair. extracted http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-murder-cannibalism0108jan08,0,4293299.story?coll=sns%2Dap%2Dnation%2Dheadlines | ||
| Anonymous |
German Satanists 'ate babies' From Roger Boyes in Berlin January 16, 2003 BABIES have been killed, sliced up and eaten by a German Satanist group, according to media reports yesterday, stirring fears that last month’s arrest of a self-confessed cannibal was not an isolated incident. The prosecutor’s office in Trier, near the border with Luxembourg, said that it had been investigating alleged cases of cannibalism and rape by Satanists since the middle of last year. That is six months before another case of cannibalism — the eating of a software designer by a former soldier — came to light. Police stumbled on the Satanist group when a 34-year-old woman gave evidence about a network whose members ate babies and raped women as part of an initiation rite. Some of the alleged cannibal acts are said to go back 15 years. The trial is expected to begin next month of Armin M., a former sergeant-major. The man advertised on the internet for young men to be slaughtered and eaten. Bernd Jürgen Brandes agreed to have an organ cut off and cooked. The victim bled to death and was chopped up and deposited in the deep freeze of Armin M., who then ate the body parts. 3-544282%2C00.html,http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-544282,00.html | ||
| Anonymous |
Terry Dale Duncan, 30, says he tried to 'disassemble' his month-old son Father pleads no contest to abusing infant Friday, January 31, 2003 By TAD DICKENS THE ROANOKE TIMES Duncan, who claims to be a Satanist, was convicted of attempted capital murder. The suspect's claims were wild - more than a thousand satanic murders in 43 states and Mexico, including two in Roanoke. Police could not connect Terry Dale Duncan, self-styled satanic high priest, to those stories. But they could connect him to the attempted murder of his month-old son. uncan, 30, pleaded no contest in Roanoke Circuit Court on Thursday to what he told police was an attempt to "disassemble" the infant. Judge Charlie Dorsey convicted him of attempted capital murder, malicious wounding and felony child neglect. "This is one of the most horrendous cases I've ever seen," said Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Neil Horn. The child, identified previously as Terrence Alexander Duncan, likely would have died if not for intervention from a Child Health Investment Partnership nurse and a social worker who visited the Duncans after the boy missed a doctor's appointment. Doctors discovered the child had suffered fractures to a leg, a shinbone and both collarbones. Bruises covered his nose, forehead and eyes. They later discovered a wound that appeared to be a cigarette burn at the back of his throat. In an interview with Roanoke police detectives, Duncan said he decided to sacrifice the boy because he believed Terrence was not his son. "And so I knew for a fact that Terrence was not mine, but I figured maybe I can be able to raise him as if he was mine, so that way I can use him to do the things that I used to do," Terry Duncan told detectives, according to a transcript of the interview. "But when I felt inside of me, and I knew that it wasn't gonna work, I figured I'd try disassembling him." +++ What Duncan claimed he "used to do" with an Oklahoma-based satanic cult was to separate and break bones, eventually killing the victims. "And the majority of those states that we done the sacrifices, some of them were immediate sacrifices to where the heart was busted or the throat was enclosed to cause breathing to stop immediately and cause instant death," he told police. "And then disassembled ... the bodies." +++ Duncan told investigators that he planned to apply pressure to the back of the baby's head until he killed him. The nurse and social worker got to Terrence just in time, lawyers in the case have said. +++ Katherine Duncan, who was never considered a suspect in the case, has the intelligence of a child, lawyers in the case say. Terry Duncan has said the two were married in a Cherokee Indian ceremony in North Carolina, but lawyers in the case have said the couple were not legally married. The child has been in foster care. In a plea agreement with Terry Duncan, prosecutors dropped two malicious wounding charges, and two counts of felony child neglect. Duncan faces a maximum sentence of life plus 30 years when he is sentenced March 20, Horn said. http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story143766.html | ||
| Diane Vera |
To the administrator: Please forward this message to the FACTNet staff. To FACTNet: Please try to present a more balanced picture of Satanism. The vast majority of Satanists do not commit violent crimes and do not belong to "cults." For some good scholarly info, see the articles linked here: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/academic.html Another thing to note, regarding "Satanic crime": In all likelihood, at least some of these criminals use Satanic trappings and claim "the Devil made do it" as a way to get themselves declared insane and get a more lenient sentence. There are many kinds of Satanists. Alas, there are indeed some cultlike groups in the Satanist scene, and such groups are indeed a legitimate concern of FACTNet. However, please make more of an effort to distinguish truth from sensationalism and psychotherapeutic quackery. If you would like FACTNet to be helpful to people in the Satanist scene who are leaving cultlike groups, you could serve that constituency a lot better by presenting a more balanced picture of the Satanist scene. If you come across as willfully ignorant about Satanism -- as indeed you do now -- then a Satanist who wants to leave a real-life cultlike group would be far less likely to trust you than he or she would if you presented a more balanced, knowledgeable picture. I myself am a theistic Satanist. My personal beliefs are summarized in the following articles, in case anyone here is curious: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/Muse/summary.html http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/Muse/XianSatanEvil.html Diane Vera | ||
| Admin (Admin) |
FACTNet only concerns itself where abuse occurs. (FACTNet = Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network) You will note that reports of abuse at FACTNet covers the spectrum of religious institutions. The Discussion Board goes even further. The Discussion Board covers Corporations, Governments and Families as well. We also do not write most of the reports that you see. The vast majority of data available is written by journalists. It is just the news of the day. It is there for people to discuss. We would like to see people discuss the issues. This is to the benefit of all. Every day we get people from all religious denominations asking us to remove "negative" articles. We would have no integrity at all if we did as they requested. So we don't. Abuse is abuse. The reports are either true or they are false. We are also not here to present a "balanced picture". FACTNet is one of many watchdog organisations around the world and on the internet that monitor the news for signs of abuse. If you are concerned that your denomination is getting a raw deal then we suggest: 1/ you get active in your own community to ensure that it doesn't fall foul of the law 2/ you create a website that propagates what you consider to be a more balanced point of view 3/ keep talking to other people We try to pass along the latest news. We encourage others to post the latest news and discuss the latest news. We don't create or write the latest news. If you are still uncertain of what FACTNet is trying to do, please visit: http://www.factnet.org/factpack.htm http://www.factnet.org/mission.htm http://www.factnet.org/about.html | ||
| Diane Vera |
To the administrator: You say it's not your aim to present a "balanced picture." However, surely it WOULD be in line with your goals to expose the questionable practices (e.g. "hypnotic regression therapy") used by some of the people who claim to be fighting against "Satanic Ritual Abuse." (Fortunately, this sort of thing is much less common now than it was back in the 1980's.) For more infomration, please see some of the links featured in the "False memories" and "Satanism" sections of Rick Ross's site: http://www.rickross.com/groups/fsm.html http://www.rickross.com/groups/satanism.html (Rick Ross is one of your own recommended cult experts. That being the case, I hope you'll consider sparing at least a few minutes to look at the material on his site.) On the other hand, may I ask how the story which you do feature on the following page is even relevant to your goals at all? http://www.factnet.org/cults/satanism/index.html?FACTNet Your link to the full story about Manuela and Daniel Ruda is broken. I did a web search and found a few stories about these two sickos on the BBC site, including the following: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1792416.stm In the stories I read, I found NO indication that the couple belonged to any sort of cultlike group, or that one of these two people had brainwashed or otherwise coercively persuaded the other. As far as I can tell, Manuela and Daniel Ruda are just two very sick people who committed a gruesome murder and then claimed, "the Devil made us do it." So, what is the point of featuring this story on a website devoted to exposing coercive persuasion? In closing, I would like to suggest that your "Satanism" section feature a link to the "Satanism" and "False memories" sections of Rick Ross's website (URL's given earlier in this post). After all, he's one of your own recommended cult experts, and he has evidently put a lot of effort into researching these topics. | ||
| Admin (Admin) |
Everyone who abuses others belongs to the class of "very sick people". Including the Catholic Priests who did likewise. If Manuela and Daniel Ruda claim to be "Satanists" then who are we to argue. Since there is no central "Satanist" authority that can deny that they were Satanists it is up to you to prove otherwise. (That's why we have a discussion board. That is why we encourage discussion....). Anyway, we have cleaned up some of the hyperlinks and added others. We're pretty sure that visitors to the site can figure out the truth for themselves. And if they can't then they can ask questions in the discussion board. It would be really helpful to these people if you, Diane Vera, left your email address on the board so that enquiring minds could contact you with these questions ;-) ::This ends FACTNet's contribution to this thread:: | ||
| Libanus |
Ms. Vera: I share your frustration with FACTNet. For years, they have been putting my group (the Ordo Templi Orientis) on a list of "coercive" cults without the least amount of support for the statement. The Admin's claim that FACTNet's aim is not in giving a "balanced" view is correct. Actually, when you look at the "About FACTNet" page, they specifically state that some of what is displayed on this website is straight fiction and they cannot guarantee the factuality of anything found on it (a rather curious statement from a site calling itself "FACTNet".) This wording can be found here: http://www.factnet.org/about.html?FACTNet As a result of this, you can see that some of what is here is quite valuable info, and some is very partisan Xtian-slanted fluff. The reason why they do this is unknown to me, but it might have to do with the fact (?!) that it provides a shield against litigation from the Church of Scientology who is FACTNet's primary enemy. If they cannot guarantee factuality, then the CO$ doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Thus, if something IS fact, they can't guarantee it and they are safe. If is isn't, then they can at least display another nasty swipe at some non-Xtian or fringe-Xtian group and get away with it scot free. Either way, right or wrong, it works in FACTNet's and Wollersheim's favor. In short, don't bother about FACTNet--it's not worth it and you won't get anywhere. Rick Ross has far more integrity. In Babalon's Name, Libanus, OTO initiate | ||
| Anonymous |
Which part of 'dis-assembling' did Diane and Libanus not like? Several years of postings and not a word? One can only figure that there was something that provoked fear and defense from the last article? Could it be the mention of programs? Or keying programs? My suggestion would be that if you are unhappy with your current lifestyle, you need to find a good de-programmer who can help you. Concerned | ||
| Anonymous |
Satan is a real person and is compelling people to commit crimes? Occam's razor, how about: there have and always will be sick people in the world. You might as well point at all the catholic molestations and conclude that God is ordering priests to do it. | ||
| CANADIAN_EXPAT |
Hi Im Canadian living in the Netherlands and I am searching for information about a murder case that is going on in the United States where a man is on trial for murdering his wife. (Micheal Peterson case)He used to live in Graefenhausen and recently we learned that he was the last person to see another woman who mysteriously died, Elizabeth Ratliff.I am studying this case so I am looking for more information and if there is anything in the news or websites about the Elizabeth Ratliff investigation. Last reported the Ratliff case is being reopened by the German Attorney General and he will decide if he will lay criminal charges. Meanwhile Mike Peterson is now on trial for his wifes murder, he says she fell down the stairs, but seeking information about the Elizabeth Ratliff case, she was a teacher on an air force base in Graefenhausen and was found dead at the bottom of her stairs in 1985. Mike Peterson may be responsible for both of these deaths. If you have heard anything or if you have any information of anything you have heard , please email me at info@nondutchable.nl Dankuwel!! Canadian in the Netherlands | ||
| Anonymous |
i am an agnostic that has spent a great deal of my time, due to personal past experiences, researching cults and religions - including satanism. i have gone far enough with this to understand that one can identify oneself as a theological satanist who does not participate in horrible rituals and abuse. or one can identify oneself as a satanist and be a serial killer like the night stalker. all abuse is an abomination. whether it is a catholic priest fondling alter boys or a fundementalist christian 'accidently' killing a small child in an act of 'exorcism.' theological satanists (who do not act out in abusive and/or criminal ways) are not committing crimes - but to worship greed, lust, envy, etc - sure seems pretty unproductive to me, and must, by definition have victims (unless one lives alone in a cave) --- even if kept within some sort of boundaries. and - of course - many are going to take the satanic 'philosophy' (which is not about devil worship) further --- for theological 'permission' to worship greed can rationalize robbery, theological 'permission' to worship lust can rationalize rape and child sex abuse, --- etc. etc. - i could go on and on. and must remark on the number of youth gangs, biker gangs, and other gangs/cults adopting both neo-nazi and satanic symbols (tattoos, grafitti, etc). because of confusion with the christian god/devil bit - many young satanists do think of satanism as 'devil worship.' and/or a bunch of people (young or old) just choose to see things this way. what am i trying to say? any 'religion' can be twisted to deviant ends. and there are no doubt abusive people who identify with any form of 'religious' order. a concern about satanism - is the implied permission and accompanying rationalization (for sociopathic personalities) to do cruel, sadistic, and criminal things. a plus for satanism - is the honesty. i can respect the fact that whatever they do they do without hiding behind pious principles. i personally hope that satanism (as a religion) at some point gets dismantled (because of its leanings toward abuse and crime). however, i feel the same way about fundementalist christianity. the issue is really sociopathy and or psychopathy - when it comes to abuse and crime. satanism comes the closest to outright encouraging and supporting this. but many other 'religions' do so also in more covert ways. it is better to be a free thinker. and no 'religion' should be exempt from examination and criticizm. i am very pleased to find this site here - and was more unsettled by the bringing in of the false memory syndrome position. (it just doens't 'fit' here) i have researched fms a great deal also. and i would encourage others to. certainly all therapy/therapists/and thereputic technigues is/are not 'healthy' either. but i think we should listen closely and examine first -before discounting too awfully much - for ours is a society long known for hiding, denying, and lying about their dirty secrets. just an opionion. agnostism works for me. i live out of a personal belief in human equality, dignity, and love. i abhor tyranny in any form. | ||
| Anonymous |
Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:04 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I add my plea to the one below: HELP PLEASE 1960'S CALIFORNIA....I am looking for information for a friend. His doctor needs to know of any cults operating in the Novato California, Hamilton AFB, or San Rafael area in the 1960's. Your help means more than you know. Looking for evidence of cult activity in the Yuba/Sutter County areas in the 1960's early '70's. | ||
| Anonymous |
Greed, lust and envy are not worshipped by satanists. They are confronted as indigenous emotions and drives. I tend to believe thinking lust is a natural physical urge is a lot healthier than the notion that having that urge at any time is equivalent to adultery (and should be treated by plucking out the offending eye). Analysis of satanism from a Judeo-Christian moral point of view is utterly pointless, obviously you'll never achieve reconciliation. Why waste your time engaging in it? The only people you'll convince are those that already agreed with you. | ||
| Anonymous |
i agree with the view that instincts are ingidenous & natural. i also believe it is up to us to keep these within legal and moral (not harming another person) bounds. i have read "the secret life of a satanist" (re. the life of anton levey; including interviews with same), and other non-judeo-christian literature this topic. our culture is so seeped in the judeo-christian moral point of view that not anyone truly escapes it. satanism (re. levay) did not in itself escape it. because levay's satanism is reactionary to ------ one can grow up in a home full of drunks and become a drunk (repetitive). one can also grow up in a home full of drunks and never touch a drop of alcohol (reactionary). we live in the context we live in and it has pervasive effects no matter what our choices. hopefully we choose the lesser evil though (which for me = agnostism) and avoid any extremes. satanism is about a whole lot more that recognizing instincts as natural. check out this book, especially the picture section. | ||
| miguel Guerra Leon |
Antes que nada agradezco los comentarios de todos (compartan o no mis opiniones). Bueno en verdad nuca fui el unico que pidio una excomunion y ahora mucho menos gracias a la particion de medios de difusion (la republica, cesar hildebrabdt y medios del exterior). Pero creo que una excomunion es un tema polemico pero hay tantos temas por tocar. Aveces se habla (como yo tambien y dicho)de que perdemos energia en muchas cosas, pero se han puestoa pensar ¿porque no proponer algo en lo cual no perder esas energias? ¿En olvidarse de ideologias para no terminar en ataques?, casi siempre defendemos nuestro frente como si, fuera la verdad absoluta y queriendo mancillar a los demas. Como sostengo individualmente hacemos poco y colectivamente creamos agrupacines que nunca se ponen de acuerdo y crean brechas en la humanidad. Ya es hora que esto pare si de verdad quieren encontrar ese mundo mejor, sino la utopia en palabras efimeras continuarar hasta que la tierra y nuestros dias acaben. PD. Seria preferible y mas correcto dejar una forma con sus nombres y mails para contestar en casos merecidos o para pasarles la voz cuando la web este actualizada. Gracias por todo. Miguel Guerra Leon escritor / libre Pensador http://www.elvalle.tk http://www.excomunion.tk http://www3.larepublica.com.pe/2003/JULIO/pdf27/ http://argentina.indymedia.org/news/2003/07/122288.php | ||
| Fredric l. Rice |
http://coyotewicca.org/report/index.htm This is a State of California special report on occult crime, a law enforcement primer. It's the best report on case studies on occult crime yet produced by any official government agency. | ||
| Carol |
Need help please ~ ANY info on satanism, black magic, or mind control in the region of Sedona Arizona will be GREATLY appreciated. I know without a doubt that there is something going on there ~ I have personally experienced the effects of whatever it is and now someone very close to me is in danger. I believe that this has something to do with "radionics" &/or "haarp" technology ~ with the darker side piggy-backing on it. This is a serious matter and I intend to do whatever I can to expose this manipulation! | ||
| Anonymous |
What's radiotronics? | ||
| Anonymous |
One should make a dicernment between "Satanism" and "Satan Worship". Satanism is a codified organzied religion based in San Francisco, USA. It was founded by Anton Szandor Lavey is 1966. Sincie his death in 1998 or 1999 it has been headed by his long time compainion and associate Blanche Barton. Satanism derives it's name from the original hebrew word Satan or Shaitan meaning "The opposite of" or "The Accuser". Satanism is "The opposite of current accepted though and practice in the modern western post judeo-christain world". Though the name can put one off, and the imagary (sigil of baphomet, red and black colors) can be inflammatory) the core ethos of this satanism does bode well for humanity at large, wishing to free all people of the oppresive nature of heard mentality and group thought. Satanism does not require people to become officialy liked with the organization to consider themselves a satanist. Satanism does not recognize and deity, god or figurehead. The head (High Priest or Pristess) does not promote any collective agenda, and satanists often work alone or in very small loose groups. Satanists do not under any circumstances hurt children or animals, and satanists who live the ethos to the "T" do not drink or srink occasionally do not use any mind altering substances and do not smoke. Self destructive practices are seen as the closest thing to a high sin in satanism. The satanic ethos is very simple and very loose. To put my interpratation of it in a nutshell it would read, "Learn what you can from it, take waht you can take from it. Try to make the best of life for yourself and everyone else around you, it's probably the only life you get." (Interesting TidBit, Though Satanism is listed with the US government as a legitimate religious organization and is elligable for tax exempt status, they do not accept it and pay taxes, as totals seperation of chruch and state is seen as nessasary for a fair and balanced culture. They are the only registered religous group in the country that does this.) "Satan Worshippers" are people who are twisted christains. They worship the Christain deity satan and often indulge in destructive and self destructive behaivior. Satan Worshippers are not organized or codefied. Satan Worshippers are often mentally or emotionally disturbed individuals and care oft-times rebelling against someone or something in thier lives. Satan Worshippers have no doctorine, dogma or ethos. If analised it is seen as self defeating. By recognizing the Christain devel, you recognize the Christain God. By recognizing the Christain God, you recognize the Christain Bible. The recognizing the Bible you recognized the books contained withing, and specicifaclly the Book of revalation that states, in all simplicity, in the God Vs. Satan match up, Satan is fated to loose. Therefore by Woshipping ht eDevil you are siding with a loser and you know it. All in all Satan Worshippers are a disturbed lot and it is confined to the mentall and emotionally ill and is a by product of organzied christianity's darker elements such as shame, guilt and denial. A mentally ill, for instance, but not nessasarily a schizofrenic, if raised in a fundamentalist strict and repressive christain setting *MAY* (equally may not) end up a "Satan Worshipper", these people need help, counslesing, therepy etc. Satanists (get past the name, think with your ciritcal mind, not with you'r pre-conceiced notions) are peaceful and often kind, intelligent and giving people. They are loosely organsied, if at all sometimes, and do not "recruit" it is against thier ethos. Just like every group there are those satanists who are jerks, those who are self serving, those who are outright manipulative. But the satanic ethos does not prescrinbe that, it is a belief in the self and life. Also be kind for the spelling or grammer, I am wiritn this quick know there are considerable mistakes. My spelling or grammer mistakes bear no realtion to the validity of my argument or my personal competance. I mention this only because of how often I see such behaivior on message boards, I feel as though a disclaimer is nesc. Thanks. | ||
| Douglas |
The tree of knowledge of good and evil still brought death, the good side or the evil side. Either way you look at Satan, whether healthy Satanism or sick Satan worshipers they all are on the same path. | ||
| Sarah dB |
i want to say something i think needs to be said. all this 'satanic' events are not acctually real satisum. i have read alot of the satanic beliefs and well...the TRUE beliefs dont believe in sacrifice, dont believe in the devil. they believe that u are ur own god and u choose right or wrong. so all these kids are being miss lead. i am not a satanist. but i happen to know some and they are some of the most open minded, caring people i know. so dont believe that it was the work of satisum just cuz the kids think they are satanic...cuz if they r killing, then they are not. | ||
| Anonymous |
February 12, 2004 BY ABDON M. PALLASCH Legal Affairs Reporter $$$ Rush North Shore Medical Center psychiatrist Bennett Braun and psychologist Roberta Sachs paid a northwest suburban woman $7.5 million to settle her claim that they brainwashed her into believing she was a member of a cult and needed to be sterilized so she would not bear any more babies to be sacrificed for the cult. The truth is that Elizabeth Gale, 52, never had any children. She was just a woman with mild depression who surrendered herself to the care of Braun in 1986. "At the time, Dr. Braun and his team were recognized national experts in multiple personality syndrome, recovery of repressed memories of childhood abuse, etc.," said Mary Ellen Busch, attorney for Rush, which denies the charges. "Over the last 10 years, the methods by which repressed memories were recovered have become very controversial." Braun, Sachs and their practices have since been banished from Rush. The state suspended Braun's psychiatry license for three years, although he's now practicing in Montana. The state reprimanded Sachs, who is now in Maryland. Their attorneys could not be reached for comment Wednesday. Braun and Sachs "convinced Ms. Gale she had dozens of different personalities which had been created as a result of the horrific trauma they told her she suffered as a child," said her attorney, Todd Smith of Power Rogers & Smith. Smith takes over this summer as president of the American Trial Lawyers Association. He said Braun and Sachs "convinced Ms. Gale she was a member of a worldwide secret ... satanic cult ... that Ms. Gale was a 'breeder' for the cult and that she had sacrificed her previous children, when she in fact had never had children," Smith said. Braun and Sachs "instructed Ms. Gale to undergo a tubal ligation to avoid further 'cult pregnancies.' She did so in May of 1991." They persuaded Gale to abandon her family, change her name more than once, quit her job and sell all her possessions to stay a step ahead of the alleged "cult," Smith said. Their strategy with Gale mirrored the approach they took with Patricia Burgus, with whom many of the same defendants settled for $10.6 million in 1997, Smith said. Braun had Burgus convinced she was "high priestess" of the alleged cult. Neither Braun nor Sachs has ever been criminally charged for their actions with Gale, Burgess or other patients in their repressed memory therapy. A federal prosecutor in Houston filed fraud charges against a colleague of theirs in Texas but did not secure a conviction. The repressed-memory practice Braun helped make popular in the late '80s has since been largely discredited, but the damage has been done, Smith said. He has asked himself over the last several years how a reputable hospital like Rush could have been duped by the dubious psychiatry. "It brings revenue into the hospital," Smith said. "They don't monitor closely what goes on in the hospital. I can't figure out myself why insurance companies allowed this to go on, paid for by insurance. Why do we have a dozen patients at a time sitting over there on the floor at Rush alone diagnosed with 'multiple personality disorder based on satanic ritual abuse'?" $$$ Rush North Shore will pay $3.6 million of the settlement, and the downtown hospital will pay $150,000. The rest of the claim will be paid by Sachs, Braun and Dr. Corydon Hammond. $$$ http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-psych12.html | ||
| Crenshaw |
I stitch the eyes that he may not see my movement in the air about him. I sew tight the lips that he might not speak the words which murder my children. I am on you like a blazing fire which furies unseen across your homes. I flay your babys and eat thier skins. I poison your dreams and make you my thrall. I am Ithgo and Mizpaan in flight shudder to think the lies which are bubbling in you. I am the way the truth and I am the Light. ~666 | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.116.66) |
The only people as crazy as the small number of disturbed people committing crimes in the name of Satan are the far larger numbers of Christian fundamentalists who attribute to Satanism real or imagined crimes committed by anyone who isn't one of them. These religious nuts invariably believe any con artist on the fundamentalist circuit who claims to have been A) a high priest or priestess in a Satanic cult B) been used to breed children for sacrifice or C) witnessed human sacrifices. It makes not an iota of difference to these gullible sots that investigation of these sacrifices never produces an iota of evidence. Satanism and "play Satanism" (ie. dressing strangely and saying weird things to freak out the old folks)is a by-product of fundamentalist Christianity. In the absence of fundamentalist Christianity, there would be no Satanism because Satanism is a reaction againt an equally extreme movement. If fundamentalists really want young people to loose interest in Satanism, they'll stop obsessing about it. | ||
| Anonymous (81.154.12.219) |
"when it comes to abuse and crime. satanism comes the closest to outright encouraging and supporting this." No, the Xtian Church does (all denominations included)- by miles! No how many 'millions' in compensation has it paid to abuse VICTIMS over the past five years? | ||
| Anonymous (81.154.12.219) |
"By recognizing the Christain God, you recognize the Christain Bible." And how many billions have died due to this much adulterated and contradictory jumble of silly words over the centuries? | ||
| Dou (68.162.47.187) |
billions of people like you have died from lack of understanding and being deceived worshiping your god, the father of lies. | ||
| Anonymous (172.162.198.127) |
Trillions have died thanks to that horrible, lying bastard satan. satan sucks! | ||
| Anonymous (217.43.0.99) |
Nar - the 'Nazarine' is the guy who apparently DEMANDS total complience and blood of millions of committed followers NOT old nick! the Church is the real enemy of free will and common sence and always will be. Still, controlled zombies will never get this. Get real! | ||
| Anonymous (217.43.0.99) |
"billions of people like you have died from lack of understanding and being deceived worshiping your god, the father of lies" What utter codswallop. Afraid the only one who is conning themself is clearly YOU! You have my pity and sincere wish that you can escape your simplistic, yet very worrying, religious zeal! And before you tell me that you will pray for me I have to tell you that you need to save your prayers for yourself in this instance for you are kidding yourself like millions of other blind controlled sheep! | ||
| bee (4.238.26.170) |
Hi Anon. 217, Are you against all who claim to know Jesus or only those who try & force their belief on you? Would you also consider someone blind if one felt they were not being controlled by a religious system rather by free will have chosen to follow Christ because of how he revealed himself to them? Thanks. | ||
| Douglas (68.162.59.129) |
Posting as Anonymous (217.43.0.99) You seem to have a hard time writing the name of Jesus Christ, Yeshua Messiah in the Hebrew language. By the power he has over you, in his name, do you resent the fact that you have to totally comply to the One who crushed your head? | ||
| Anonymous (217.157.121.172) |
Douglas, Did Jesus Christ aka Yeshua aka Isa asa The Messiah and on and on, crush your head? No, it wouldn't be like him at all. Must have been someone else then... anyway, I wish you a speedy recovery. BTW, it may interest the readers here to know that the selfproclaimed christian Douglas (above), on the Branch Davidian thread, is approving of child abuse, so long as the paedophiliac in question can cite the bible simultaneously as molesting children. Just a little sideinfo to add to the point made earlier that satanism/evil/abominable etc are terms fundamentalists use to describe criminal or immoral acts that could easily be committed by themselves. from another 217 | ||
| GodsServant (64.12.117.20) |
Douglas, First you say--> 1 then you say--> 2 Douglas, what do you mean??? are you for 1 or 2??? You can only say one or the other. NOT both. You have truly confused everyone in these boards!!! What did I say in the other board about confusion??? Well, its not of God thats for sure. GOD BLESS | ||
| Sharon (142.177.82.194) |
GodsServant... Is it a service to God that you try to drag down his people? Where is the confusion. Did you go and look to see if Douglas said that? The girl who started that thread said she never saw any such abuse, do you think she is lying for she was there. Douglas only stepped up to defend Jesus which I would have done had he not done it,as any Christian would have. He pointed out that 217 could not even write the lords name, as a true satanist would not. He was claiming that Christ was the cause of the worlds suffering and not old nasty boots. But that is understandable as he does not believe in Christ. But what is it you are doing? I thought you were a believer? What is it you are confused over? How confused are you? Did you not notice that Douglas used scripture on 217 and he did not understand it, do you? Tell me of the 1 and 2 so we can see just what it is that confuses you. When you say Douglas confused everyone on these boards did you mean me for I have to say that would be a very wrong statement because Douglas has shown light on every board he has been on. Where is your love, I hear you speak of everything but love, satan , spaceships, demons, but NO love. | ||
| Douglas (160.93.108.64) |
GS You're confusing. What 1 and 2 are you talking about? | ||
| Douglas (68.162.47.87) |
I see we have another person who follows the father of lies, "another 217". I see you have here a whole list of slurs and slanders and don't have much use for truth or reality. Why don't you save them for threads like this instead of subjecting some poor depressed person to your devisiveness (if that was not you it sure was in the character of this post) Anonymous (217.157.121.172) Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:13 pm Douglas, Did Jesus Christ aka Yeshua aka Isa asa The Messiah and on and on, crush your head? No, it wouldn't be like him at all. Must have been someone else then... anyway, I wish you a speedy recovery. BTW, it may interest the readers here to know that the selfproclaimed christian Douglas (above), on the Branch Davidian thread, is approving of child abuse, so long as the paedophiliac in question can cite the bible simultaneously as molesting children. Just a little sideinfo to add to the point made earlier that satanism/evil/abominable etc are terms fundamentalists use to describe criminal or immoral acts that could easily be committed by themselves. from another 217 | ||
| Douglas (68.162.47.87) |
Sharon I just noticed your above post, Blush | ||
| Sharon (142.177.78.165) |
Douglas... no need for blushing as you know I do not lie, I only speak the truth. I see many people here who are helped by you and are grateful. I also see that you are often attacked ,and misunderstood, another sign that you must be doing things right. When someone thanks you I see old nasty boots jumping up and down and screaming and it gives me a giggle. You do not know how much I hate him, so when you smite him with your words i smile at the thought of how mad he must be.So of course I am the one who would notice the Thank yous more than most. Probably more than you. So Thank You | ||
| Douglas (160.93.88.210) |
That's a funny thought, I annoy him as a hyperactive kid drives impatient people crazy. Wouldn't that be funny! | ||
| Anonymous (81.153.32.222) |
"You seem to have a hard time writing the name of Jesus Christ, Yeshua Messiah in the Hebrew language. By the power he has over you, in his name, do you resent the fact that you have to totally comply to the One who crushed your head? " Nar Dougie baby - the only one who seems to have a 'hard time' is YOU due to the indoctrinated state of your poor old subconsciousness. An original thought would probably kill you. This Jesus axis is just a man-made myth invented by radical activists who were at odds with the order of the day - nothing more! | ||
| Anonymous (81.153.32.222) |
There will NEVER be peace in the world while all this crackpot religion is polluting people's minds. Jews cannot get on with muslims, catholics with prodies, hindus with blah blah blah. Each cult thinks they are the only TRUE way to divinity and that their holy book (bible. tora, koran etc)is the only light. All are wrong and all are utterly diversive. Fundalentalism is rife and it will stay that way coz mankind has NOT yet grown up. Very sad. | ||
| Anonymous (81.153.32.222) |
Be afraid - be very afraid for while bush and blair are at morning prayer their troops are filling the morning air with the blood of innocents. Alternatively other radicals are cutting the heads off their hostages all in the name of righteousness and their beloved GOD! How long before a zealous finger presses the final red button for the love of a wonderful all knowing GOD? Wake up world and act like true residents of this beautiful universe - see religion for what it really is - PURE EVIL ACTING AS GOOD! BEWARE - RELIGION KILLS! | ||
| Anonymous (64.255.96.72) |
"BEWARE - RELIGION KILLS!" Yes, as opposed to all the great things wrought by atheists. Joseph Stalin was quite a guy wasn't he? | ||
| bee (207.30.1.2) |
Anon. 81, Would it be fair to say that religion does not kill rather evil does? I believe God opposes evil but has allowed it for a time through Satan, that He is making sin uterly sinful so none will ever want to practice it again. I also fault no one who questions the God who introduced Himself to me. He is able to reveal Himself in His timing. He may seek a willing heart. Of this I am not sure but He is able to call a person from unbelief to belief. Bless You. | ||
| GodsServant (205.188.117.20) |
| ||
| Anonymous (152.163.101.13) |
Diito, GS. | ||
| Douglas (68.162.60.137) |
To Anonymous (81.153.32.222) You might dig Christ Jesus if you got to know him. He came to do away with religion but they made a religion out of him anyways. I guess you think your thoughts are original. I see what I see because I see it and not because someone told me or because I was brought up that way. | ||
| Anonymous (152.163.101.13) |
Amazing how the four of us choose to disagree with each other, sometimes vehementally, on other threads. Yet, we put down our differences and come together to defend someone who is greater than all of us combined.....Jesus Christ. Thank you God, for small miracles! | ||
| SquirleyWurley (151.196.13.116) |
No one, no one at all, who assumes what is fact before looking at the facts, who denies the abusiveness of those in their own religion, when it is pointed out, who only looks to every rumor of others without being informed, has any sense about American values of due process, or regard for ethics or emotional maturity. I agree with the administrators, abuse is abuse. And accepting rumors without verifying what the truth is, or simply retreating into denial, are both things that get in the way of actually preventing abuse. Religious bigotry that sees demons in everyone who is not doctrinally correct, is a huge factor in psychological abuse and coersion. There is a continuum from outright cultic pressures and indoctrination to other sick group dynamics. People who beat their children if they question fundamentalist religious doctrines, are abusive people, no matter what religion or whether it is called a cult or Biblical Christianity, or whatnot. And so long as beating children for religiously based reasons, is excused, any such religionist should be seen as a collaborator with cultists, abusers, indoctrinators, etc. I.e. there is in fact something in common between them and those who commit criminal acts and blame it on the Devil, or are reported as Satanists. | ||
| Don (168.103.135.236) |
Wanna Know the truth? Read "The Franlin Cover Up" | ||
| Anonymous (4.249.33.244) |
Who wrote the "Franlin Cover Up"? What are the author/editor(s) credentials? Who published the book? These are just some questions I would ask beofre reading any book for any form of accuracy, but thats just me. I'll check into it. -da666 | ||
| Don (168.103.135.236) |
John Decamp of Omaha Nebraska wrote the Franklin Cover-up. He was a state senator and army officer in Viet-nam. He is a practicing attorney who was on a comittee investigating a savings & loan that went TU with about 40 million that came up missing. When the wild accusations About satanism and child porn/trafficing surfaced,he basically set out to debunk it. All the meat of the book is verifiable. I'm not sure who published it because I loaned it to some idiot at work who lost it. It is available at amazon. I'm glad you're asking about it, da, because these people are not like you. They are a level of evil rivaled only by Hitler or Stalin's purges. It will change anyone's view of the world if they objectively read it. | ||
| Anonymous (4.249.0.164) |
hum, sounds like its worth a read then. I get really "annoyied", to say the least when people harm children or animals for their own pleasure and profit. Children are our future, and animals are necessary to our survival, not the other way around, so they do deserve some respect. As for child pornography, anyone who traffics in it should be dealt with as harshly as the law premitts, and given my crueler streak, even harsher. I will see if they have the book a Boarder's first, if not, I might look in a few book stores before searching amazon, but I'll probably end up checking amazon to see the probably price. -da666 | ||
| SquirleyWurley (141.157.13.94) |
I'll have to check it out, myself. I never assume that a goth or individual satanist is sociopathic, because I know of many who are free-thinking or performance-art sorts, or simply people who oppose authoritarian and abusive religion, and use Satan as the image of the anti-cultist, basically, against cultic or theocratic Christianity (or other Abrahamic religions), for example. I personally found the Lavey Church of Satan to be too full of totalitarians, racists, jerks, and a sick pressure to be rude, and so I left it and generated a split in the group, even though I was really only involved online except for meeting one person I met from online in person. I also never trusted the Temple of Set, which in my view suffers from authoritarian leanings of Aquino, its founder, who is involved in Psychological Operations in the military. Actually, I wonder if he gave advice for the Bush Administration's tactics in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. Because Aquino and some in the Bush Administration are birds of a feather. The bigger and public organizations had these issues in structure and authority, and sick group pressures, for various reasons. But I think because they were in the public eye they had to take precautions. Perhaps sometimes they serve as gateways. Both the smaller groups and especially the more secretive groups, I believe are potentially just as dangerous as certain sectarian Christian and other groups. I appreciate a sober weighing of evidence, and an eye towards removing potential bias. My problem is mostly with assumptions that every bad rumor is true, and the sectarian demonizing that is out of ignorance or out of a sectarian or cultic motivation on the other side. | ||
| babyface107 (babyface107) New member Username: babyface107 Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.41.242.47 |
Hey who even cares anything about satan or his followers in the first place Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.(His Followers) | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) New member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.3.126 |
Baby face, I think you are under the delusion that being a Satanist means you believe the Bible has relevance to you. You are sadly mistaken. The Bible has the same relevance to me as the Bagavagita. -Da666 | ||
| sharon (sharon) Member Username: sharon Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.85.97 |
Fluffy... That is funny because I am pretty sure that satan is not in the Bagavagita, but he is in the bible. Odd ah? Is not your bible as a Satanist the BIBLE, you are so funny. How you speak with out laughing I do not know, you problably have to wipe away your tears. And pretenting to be 666, very cute, I love it. Satan has nothing to do with you, or the bible, where did you find him then. Did you find him someplace else, or did he never exist at all. Must be hard to say the Lords prayer backwards without the bible. Maybe you could say Mary had a little lamb backwards as your prayer. Again I say you are powerless children of a god of another race, the race of demons who stand against the HUMAN race, not against Christians or Jews, who do battle with him but against the HUMAN race. | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Intermediate Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.17.18.246 |
Huh? Doesn't seem to have any relation to anything I've said, thought or done, here or anywhere else. Seems like a string of semi incoherent non sequiturs. My bible as a Satanist? WTF? Aren't one. Don't have one. buh bye. | ||
| sharon (sharon) Member Username: sharon Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.77.38 |
Fluffy... No need to get cranky. I know it is hard for you to defend satanist because of course as you folks say he does not exist, you do not worship him, you have no bible, you do not do evil, you are not really against the human race. Really I am not even sure that satanist exist now, or is it just you and your alter ego 666. | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Intermediate Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.17.18.246 |
I'm not DA666 so, therefore, he is not my alterego. I am not a Satanist and he is. We are individual people posting to a forum. And, no, I wasn't cranky. I just thought it was an odd and illogical thing for you to say, IP addresses, posting style, etc, being as they are. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) New member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.3.250 |
Alter ego? You think I'm Fluff's alter ego? Now you have me confused...and now how did you come to this conclusion? | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Intermediate Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.107.60.82 |
Oh, I've seen people say stuff like that before. If they don't like someone or something of the sort, they'll want to say that the person is the same person as someone else who's pissed them off. I don't know why they say stuff like that, it's illogical, since it precludes the possibility that there could be more than one person who might have some commonality. In any case, all she has to do is look at the IP addresses, posting style, content,etc. | ||
| elray (elray) New member Username: elray Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.19.197.218 |
Well, there's certainly a lot for satanists as you characterize them to latch on to in there. Especially in the Old Testament. Ever read that thing? God kills *tons* of babies in there: [Genesis 7:21; 2 Sam 12:14; Exodus 12:12; Dt 20:13-16; Jos 10:28] There's even a hymn of praise to the Lord based on his baby-slaughtering: Psalms 135. After finishing the Old Testament I really just couldn't understand the Christian pro-life position on abortion. It seems inconsistent! Anyway, according to Revelations Christians are the real Jews and Judaists are the synagogue of Satan. Maybe that's why you find the self-proclaimed type of satanist amusing, because as a Christian you believe that Jews are the real satanists? [Rev. 2:9-3:9] (Message edited by elray on January 26, 2005) | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Junior Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.9.239 |
Elray, You definately have hit on many of the key points that Maltheists make when theists tell them they should love the "Bible God". And, Sharon has probably never read the Satanic Bible, otherwise, she would actually understand what I've tried to tell her. But it goes in one ear and out the other. And I'm accused of horrible crimes like killing babies because I'm a Modern Satanist. | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.110.117 |
devilsadvocate666...I read the satanic bible thirty years ago, has it changed? What has changed about it? | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Junior Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.171.81 |
Sharon, You claim to have read the Satanic Bible, if you read the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey, then you'd understand what I've been trying to tell you this whole time. | ||
| stella (stella) New member Username: stella Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.52.190.227 |
Another urban legend devil worshipper on the prowl...LMAO | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Junior Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.189.134 |
Stella, to whom are you referring to? | ||
| stella (stella) New member Username: stella Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.52.190.227 |
^^ | ||
| theone1360 (theone1360) New member Username: theone1360 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.144.74.4 |
praise the holy ghost! praise be to God! | ||
| theone1360 (theone1360) New member Username: theone1360 Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.144.74.4 |
praise the holy ghost!!!!!!! | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Junior Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.66.84 |
oh no, a holy ghost...looks like we need to have an exorcism...lol. Praise SATAN! AVE SATANAS! REGIE SATANAS! | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Junior Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.66.84 |
Stella, I am a Modern Satanist, I don't worship a deity or quasi-deity called "Satan". My view of it is more of that it is a symbol, but I've already explained this earlier. | ||
| stella (stella) New member Username: stella Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.52.190.227 |
theone1360- Hal-a fuck-in lu-ya... LMAO Devil- a mod satan? | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Junior Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.6.157 |
Stella, Satanism breaks down into two main branches, Traditional and Modern. Modern Satanists tend to view the "Satan" character as a symbolic entity, more of a representation with humanity's more carnal natures, much that are considered "dark" or "evil" by most main stream religions. We don't believe in the Satan of the Bible, nor do we believe in the god of the Bible either. Many Christians look at the name and immediately make the mistake that we are anti-Christian. We gain our view of Satan as a symbol based on earlier views of it, and the only reason it has anything to do with Christians is it was the Church that made such a hype about it in the first place, it was the Church that assigned so many malign characteristic to "Satan" in the first place. We stand against any belief system that bashes and ridicules man for being human. We find much of the traditional views of mankind to be anti-human. Hence, as Satan is the Adversary, we are the adversary of such dogmas that tell mankind to hate their humanity. All our traits, malign and benign are with us for a reason, and we should hate ourselves for having them. That is how a Satanist looks at the world. Traditional Satanists actually view Satan as a real being, and many are pagan and view Satan as their own patron deity. They are not Christians either. I've yet to meet one who even includes Jahova or Jesus into their cosmology, as those beings are considered alien to their frame of thinking. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 217 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Devilsadvocate666 1) how do you believe that the world was created? 2) Do you worship any sort of higher being? If so, what do you call it? 3) Do you have any sort of holy text? If so, what do you call it? 4) Are you Traditional or Modern? 5) What religion were you raised as? 6) As you stated in an earlier post, Satanists just can't advertise openly. So how did you find and become an adherent of this religion? 7) Are there any Satanic holidays that you celebrate? | ||
| stella (stella) Junior Member Username: stella Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.52.190.227 |
devilsadvocate666- *you forgot to add the copyright on those words you tried to so foolishly write as your own! *Anton LaVey stoled Aleister Crowley and Eliphas Levi's thoughts and ideas and claimed them as his own. Lavey was all about bullshit & money!(to which he openly admitted to) * why dont you go read about George Bernard Shaw, Fredrich Nietzsche, Ragnar Redbeard, that will keep you busy and you might even be so inspired to acually have a thought of your own! *plagiarism sees to run with you mod satanist LMAO A.'.A.'. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.3.168 |
Yaakov, 1) how do you believe that the world was created? I would honestly have to say I'm not too sure how the universe or the world as we know it came into being. I'd have to say I subscribe more towards the understanding that our universe was formed over billions of years from a series or star super novas and much of the Big Bang theory, supplemented with String Theory. But, as far as for certainty, I think that's an issue of faith in any person, be they an atheistic skeptic or a pious theist. 2) Do you worship any sort of higher being? If so, what do you call it? No. 3) Do you have any sort of holy text? If so, what do you call it? None. 4) Are you Traditional or Modern? An eclectic Modern Satanist. 5) What religion were you raised as? Roman Catholic, but with some Baptist influences. 6) As you stated in an earlier post, Satanists just can't advertise openly. So how did you find and become an adherent of this religion? I first found out about it from my own curiosity. I found on Belief net a series of boards devoted to Satanists, and at the time, I thought they were a bunch of depraved devil worshippers, so I decided to go harass them. But, after reading some of their beliefs, I became intrigued, and did some research on the different beliefs of Satanism, and read through a few of their texts, including the Satanic Bible. I thought it out for over a year, questioning what I believed, and when I read through the Satanic Bible, I found much of my own beliefs just staring back at me. I just consider my self less extreme as LaVey. 7) Are there any Satanic holidays that you celebrate? Personally, I only celebrate one. It would be my own birthday, (yeah, I can have a huge ego, but so what? I figure that since I'm alive, and my existence is very important to me, might as well declare my birthday as a holy day and get off of work for a day with a "legit" excuse...hahaha). There are at least 7 holidays for Satanists, but as we are really more fiercely individualistic, we really don't agree on any of them except probably our birthdays. Hell, why does having to turn another year older have to be seen as a bad thing? I can look up some other "official" holidays amongst Satanists, but as a rule of thumb, we celebrate most any holiday we please. Stella, LaVey didn't like Traditional Satanism, so stop your bitching. You have yet to contribute ANYTHING other than snide, disrespectful remarks this whole time. Have you copyrighted any of the attacks on Satanism and Anton LaVey YOU have made? Hell, you could get all the shit you’ve spewed from countless other sources. Each by someone claiming that its their own “original” idea. You are so adamant about insulting others for their differences of belief that you have yet to contribute anything of substance. Until you grow up, and stop posting bullshit after bullshit infested post, I will ignore you. | ||
| stella (stella) Junior Member Username: stella Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.52.190.227 |
devilass666- stating a fact is not bitching,but I guess from your point of view if someone is in disagreement then they are bitching or making snide remarks... furthermore,this is a discussion board with seemingly overtones of debates all to which you have failed at doing! PS. "You cannot get ahead while you are getting even"... | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
Hello Devilsadvocate666 I know first hand about parents getting "upset" when their children change religions. How does your parents or family feel about your religion? Do they still talk to you? Also, you said that you have no holy text, but you mentioned a Satanic bible. What is this? Also, you mentioned Anton LaVey. Is that the founder? If so, what did he do? Did he have some sort of revelation like Adam Smith? Is he still alive? | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Intermediate Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.17.18.246 |
Yaakov, There're different factions and types o' Satanism. DA can, I'm sure, tell you more than I... Anton LaVey is one founder of one type of Satanism. Think Protestants, only with Satanism. Many Satanists aren't even theists... DA gets a lot of ad hominem crap here for being a Satanist but is one of the most civil articulate contributors I've seen on any forum in quite some time... | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.9.149 |
Yaakov, My family still talks to me, and yes, they know full well of my decision. My cousins still like my brother and I, we are their favorites. They were kind of shocked at first, but I sat them down and explained to them what I believed, and why. I also brought up how they have dabbled in the occult and magick, and that they really can't throw stones when it comes to practicing in the occult arts. And, much of my family is rather accepting of differences, as we are more concerned about actions and ties between family and friends, (and often, we really make no distinction between close friends and family, they are just adopted into the family), so I guess I inherited my acceptance of many different religious beliefs from them. I mean, my brother and I are the first non-Christians in the family in over a few generations. My brother is a nihilistic maltheist. So, I guess it’s really a tie between him and me for most radically divergent path from the norm in my family, at least where religion is concerned. Ah, yes, the Satanic Bible does actually need some explaining. As most religions have texts that is consider sacred, or divinely inspired or the like, the Satanic Bible to us, is really more of an introduction to the core beliefs of Satanism, and the defense of Satanism. Otherwise, its just considered another book, oh, and it does have a magick portion, but I figure my family has been practicing its own kind for a few generations now, so I am fine with what I already know in that subject. The Satanic Bible itself is not a sacred book to me, just a book containing ideas and an ideology that I find suits my beliefs best. And, I go one step farther as to say that it may be a suitable path for me, but not for everyone, and that's fine. A common belief amongst Satanists is that you are either born a Satanist or not, and if not, there is no fault or stigma in that. As such, its one of the biggest reasons we don't look for "converts", nor do we actively encourage such. Anton LaVey is the founder of the Church of Satan, a very well-known denomination of Modern Satanism, and probably one of the most well organized denominations out of all of Modern Satanism. Anton LaVey passed away a few years ago, I think in 1996, if I remember correctly. I wouldn't say that he had some sort of divine revelation; rather he came to an understanding of religion and human society in which many Satanists identify with. He was undoubtedly influenced by Nietzsche in that respect, as they both viewed god as a social construct used by a group in power to rule over masses, and justify their actions. His whole point was, why hate yourself for being imperfect, and being essentially human, and why bother to fear or venerate a being that may not exist, when religion itself seems to be the worship of an ideal entity anyway...mind you, this is more of his perspective, not mine, I have quite a few differences in terms of philosophy with LaVey. He was more for recognizing that as individuals, we have the power to change our lives for better or worse, and that rather than venerating someone else's deity, why not venerate ourselves, as we literally shape our fates, our world, our lives. We view ourselves as the ultimate authority we answer to because of that. Doesn't mean we are lawless thugs, it means that ultimately, we will do something because we either agree with that course of action, or we feel it helps us gain something, rather than doing something out of fear of divine retribution or something like that. My disagreements with LaVey are in how he views members of other religions. He had quite a negative view of Wiccans, Christians, and Buddhists, frequently referring to them as "white-lighters". A "white-lighter" is an individual who is so focused on things like "good", or "salvation" or "eternal love and bliss" that they lose perspective and ability to see the world not only for its good, but its ills and darker halves. To me, that is a blanket statement, and I have met quite a few Buddhists, Christians, and Wiccans who are not only in touch with reality, but also very respectable people. LaVey seemed to have a real grudge against the Christian faith. To me, that is just clinging to old and unnecessary baggage. While it is important to know what popular opinion thinks of folks like I who call ourselves "Satanist" going around pestering theists and judging a person solely on their religious affiliation is just plain idiotic. I find that many of my closest friends and family are Christians. So, ratter than giving into prejudices like that, I try to get to know the person usually before I make much in the way of a real judgment, unless they are really an asshole to me first. Sorry that went off into a bit of a rant. If you have any more questions, just feel free to ask. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Thank you, Devilsadvocate666. That sounded calm and rational, not a rant at all. I have several questions. 1) Why do you call yourself “devilsadvocate666”? Doesn’t that play into Christian fears of the devil and the number 666? Doesn’t that choice of a handle set yourself up as an anti-Christian, rather than as a Satanist which is its own religion? 2) Who is responsible for writing and maintaining the Satanic bible? How are amendments, changes, and interpretations made to it? Does each denomination have their own version? 3) What is the procedure for a person to convert to your religion? 4) You said we have the power to change our lives for better or worse, and that rather than venerating someone else's deity, why not venerate ourselves, as we literally shape our fates, our world, our lives. We view ourselves as the ultimate authority we answer to because of that. Doesn't mean we are lawless thugs, it means that ultimately, we will do something because we either agree with that course of action, or we feel it helps us gain something, rather than doing something out of fear of divine retribution or something like that. As I was reading that, the word “atheist” popped into my head. In your own words, tell me how these beliefs are different from atheism. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.66.47 |
Yaakov, Actually, the whole alias of Devil's Advocate 666 comes from my earlier days at another message board. I was much younger at the time, and wanted to go have a few debates with some rabid religious fanatics, and after a while, I just felt that it was being immature, and decided that it would be better to just chat with people rather than debate all day. But this was before I studied Satanism. I found out later, that 666 was used as innuendo by early Christians in Rome to denote Nero Caesar, as to defame him outright would get a person killed. Also, being a devils advocate is just being someone who questions and counters another person's argument in a debate. I figured, at the time of creating this alias, it would be something I'd do, and the 666 part was from how I have been so often called evil or hell spawn. So, in my weird sense of humor, I stuck the terms together. The only reason I used it here was that I was too lazy to come up with another alias. I also didn't feel like coming up with another one. As for the Satanic Bible, there are two editions, but I don't know of any denomination that updates them or amends them. We are pretty much on our own when it comes to how we interpret the messages and meanings within that book. So really, it is up to the individual Satanist on how they will run their lives and beliefs. And, the Satanic Bible is pretty much universal from my understanding, though I'm quite sure that some denominations have their own version too, but I am not too sure of what those copies would be like, as I've yet to find one. As for converts, hum. I'd guess the only thing that one really needs to do to become a Satanist is to recognize they are one, and start living it. No need for joining a Satanic organization, or the Church of Satan, (I'm not even a member, nor do I intend to become one), nor a need for an elaborate rite or ritual. Otherwise, I guess that's really the only thing too it. But, generally, we Satanists tend to discourage rash conversions as we want the person to fully understand what they are doing, and want them to be content with what they choose to believe. If they are comfortable with being a Satanist, then they shouldn't be pressured or bullied into being one. It’s a very personal decision, best aided by inner reflection and research into the perspective faith. I do think there are some rituals though in some of the more formal circles of Satanism, but as a whole, none that I know of that are universal. When it comes down to it, Satanism, at least Modern Satanism, is atheism with a different perspective. Atheism is simply the lack of deities, or the non-worship of a deity. Most Modern Satanists are usually atheists, but a few are agnostic as well. We just associate with a symbol, Satan or Lucifer, as our source of inspiration in this world. Think of it as atheism is a statement of personal belief, Satanism is taking that statement, and applying it into the world in a different way, it’s a form of atheism with a direction and philosophical view. Oh, and one other thing, many Satanists have at least some experience with magick, and as a result, many of us believe in such a force. It's not something that can be fully explained by science, at least not yet, so, unlike many atheists who wouldn't believe in it without it smacking them in the face; we tend to take more of an interest into such a claim. But I can try to explain this more clearly later, as right now I'm tired, and I'm only able to write what is coming to me at the moment, (its about 1:30 am when I post this). | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Devilsadvocate666 I was side-stepping magick, but you keep mentioning it. 1) What does magick mean to you? 2) What magick did your family practice? 3) Are there differences between black magick and white magick? 4) Is your magick ritualized? 5) Any similarities to Wiccan magick? To Voodoo? To Witchcraft? 6) In your own words, please compare and contrast Satanistic magick to Divine miracles. 7) Does Satanic magick require a group (i.e. coven) to work? 8) On a different issue, do you have any belief in the existence of real devils or demons? Most Modern Satanists are usually atheists, but a few are agnostic as well. We just associate with a symbol, Satan or Lucifer, as our source of inspiration in this world. Think of it as atheism is a statement of personal belief, Satanism is taking that statement, and applying it into the world in a different way, it’s a form of atheism with a direction and philosophical view. This is confusing to me, I am unable to reconcile these statements. On one hand, you said that Satanism is not opposing Christianity, but is a religion in its own right that practices veneration of self. But on the other hand, you associate with a name that has strong references as an anti-Christian figure, a god that is opposite and equal to the Christian god. I am unable to comprehend how this is atheistic since you believe in a figure that an atheist would view as make-believe. A true atheist doesn’t believe in any deistic figures. Within Judaism, Satan is just one of God’s angels. He does precisely what God tells him to do and no more. He can’t and doesn’t compete with God. However, even the belief that Satan is one of God’s angels is more than what an atheist believes. | ||
| djnavii (djnavii) Member Username: djnavii Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.4.221.227 |
Yaakov wrote: a god that is opposite and equal to the Christian god. Opposite yes, equal, not. Re-read the book of Enoch and the NT and update your understanding. Toda} | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Intermediate Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 191 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.107.60.82 |
I think this hysteria about "666" which does not, in modern English, mean what it meant in the original language in which it appeared, in Revelations- is pretty silly. I bought a car and kept the plate that was already on it when I got it. It had a 666 in it. I was living in the South for a while and I can't tell you how many people came up to me all worried about my license plate. Then, when I told my (devoutly Presbyterian) cousin this, who lives in CA, she laughed. Freaking out over stuff like that is pointless. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.185.9.189 |
Yaakov, To me, magick is a term used to refer to the effects of properly channeling one's inner strength and will over reality, to change it in a way that is desired or random. From my experience, the energy that powers magick comes from a deeper reservoir within our nature itself; call it a soul if you will the name matters little to me. I at first didn't believe in it myself, until I had a few experiences with that power directly. That is why I believe in it as a force. My family practices a blend of various traditions from much of the European world. Much of it being healing magick, but also a few curses as well, and quite a bit in the arts of summoning and contact with the spirits of the dead. To me, there isn't really a difference between "white" and "black" magick. Magick is a force, similar to fire. It can be used to help and harm in equal degree, and can be rather dangerous is misused or disrespected. I find that the only real difference between "black" and "white" magick is intent and source. Otherwise, for all purposes, they are pretty much the same. Magick I practice isn't really ritualized, though many Satanists practice a ritualized form of magick. I just let my emotions run at a high, usually in a sparring match, and then focus the energy that comes as a result. My natural intuition does the rest. So, I'd have to say what I do is more of natural talent than formalized procedure. I find that the magick I practice is not related to Witchcraft, Voodoo, nor Wiccan magick. I don't call upon the aid of a deity for what I do, and I don't focus on the elements. I don't use a ritual, so I guess my technique is closer to channeling chi. Satanic magick is often ritualistic in nature, and, unlike divine miracles, uses force of will and emotion to achieve one's desires rather than waiting on divine intervention. Almost as a rule, Satanists focus and expend a great deal of personal energy when they use their own form of magick, and, even if they don't believe in supernatural phenomena, they claim that it is more of psychological stress relief. So, where as divine intervention often consists of a worshiper requesting aid from a deity, the typical Satanist will spend more of their energy on shaping reality itself to fit their desires, mostly through will power alone. And, much of the items they may use in the ritual, including anything they may chant or say, is rich with symbolic meaning meant to help them focus. In a sense, Satanic magick is more of an extension of one's own will, where as divine miracles is when a higher power directly intervenes on the behalf of some mortal being. Satanic magick often is individualized, but can be practiced in a group, if desired. It works both alone and in a group. It really depends on the aim of the ritual. Demons and devils to me are a rather complex subject. In the category of "real" demons/devils, you have often either an entity that doesn't exist normally in the frame of our senses, and in that case, they are often beings that really don't want anything to do with us humans, and can be malign, benign, or indifferent, just like humans. The other "real" variety is a though form. A mental image or construct that is given life, based on some odd or freak accident of reality that embodies the concept of belief that first spawned it. These kinds of beings are more common than most people think, but the process that spawns them is still somewhat a mystery to me. To put it simply, thought forms are an expression of an individual belief/concept/person/etc that have became sentient and free willed. I do know that these kinds are also the "demon" that is conjured forth in a summons ritual, but those rituals are not for the foolish or immature. I've heard plenty of horror stories from friends and family of mine about those kinds of rituals, even from fellow Satanists, traditional Satanists, no less. Their rules of thumb, never do something like that to "see if it works", always treat the summoned being as an equal, never make demands or threats, and take a hint, if it doesn't feel like helping you or doing what you want, don't push it. The whole concept of finding an association with the Satan figure goes back to the concept of associating with anything. Both theist and atheist alike will often associate themselves with something, even mythic characters. Its part of the need to define one's self, but the biggest problem with that is that we can only define ourselves by what we were raised to see as standards or traits. So, even though I am an atheist, I still see the world through a set of lens that is influenced by my Christian upbringing. So, the Satan symbol holds meaning for me that it wouldn't hold for someone who wasn't raise in my set of circumstances. It’s that I take a different view of the Satan character than many Christians do. That's probably the biggest problems with trying to explain this, as it relies on two different perspectives of the same character, and being able to communicate the views behind such. I think the reason why it’s focused also on the Satan symbol was that most of the Satanism was a response, not necessarily a counter, but formed as a response to Christianity. And, as many Satanists tend to look at the faults and failings of the Church, and much of what we consider to be rather dogmatic and restrictive beliefs held historically by the Church to be the anti-thesis of what we believe and live for. But, in this response, we do have a fair share of Satanists who are more concerned with pissing off Christians than anything else. I, on a personal level, find that my beliefs also formed as a result of being exposed too much of what I found to be an unwillingness to question authority and dogma, and that this, was what I stood against. It was this trend that I found, historically speaking, in some of the more conservative forms of Christianity. And, this was the common theme throughout much of history. But, the name of Satanism would be different if say, the dominant religion of Europe and America for the past 1,600+ years was say, Zoroastrianism. It goes back to the emphasis on opposing abuses and stagnation endorsed by powerful institutions and belief systems. So, rather than opposing the religion itself, we oppose the faults of a religion, and the causes of those faults, at least from our frame of reference, which can be as flawed as anyone else's. And in this case, it would be dogmas that are treated as so sacred that they cannot be questioned, the emphasis on a clergy to tell people what to think, forced belief, etc. Just think of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, it’s that kind of phenomena we are against. Something like feed the Children or something of that nature is not what we are against. I am perfectly willing to admit that Christianity has been a force for both progress and stagnation in this world, as any belief system had the potential for. I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who think I'm nuts for choosing this path, but it goes back to what we consider the "norm" and our connection to that. I hope I made some sense with this. Sorry if it’s a little wordy. Ball of Fluff, I find that people are notorious or getting bent outta shpae over the most pointless and arbitrary things, but what can I say? Welcome to the Human race, lol. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 226 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Devilsadvocate666 Thanks for the responses. I am out of questions for now. See ya around. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 445 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
Is this so-called magic you practice used to bring harm to others? As a curse? If you are an atheist who doesn't believe in an afterlife, then how can you summon a non-existent spirit? | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 129.174.123.20 |
I personally, don't use magick to harm others, as I find that it is a waste of energy that could be better spent in other ways. Only if the person has done something that is completely out of line, such as hold those I care about hostage or something of that nature shall they get something like that. otherwise, I will find other methods of getting what I want, all of them being mundane of course. Chi is simply a way to channel an inner current of your life energy to achieve the desired effects, most of them being related to the body only, and minor changes in the reality around you. The only way I could use it to harm another is through a great deal of focus, and actual physical contact. Unless I'm sorely pressed, I rarely see a need to use it in that manner. Your last statement insinuates that there is a connection between the concept of an afterlife and magick. There isn't. Also, just because I don't believe in a higher power that interferes with our world at all doesn't mean that I don't believe in something like an afterlife, mostly because I've had expereince with such things like spirits. To me, as an atheist, I wouldn't have believed in such beings if I had no proof, but encountering them, that was proof enough for me to believe in their existance. But, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that all spirits are literally independant and sentient beings, as they could be mental constructs, hallucinations, etc. I only believe in the "supernatural" because I've had experience with it. So, I don't have blind faith in its existance, but doesn't mean I'll write off every encounter I have with something no of our world as a hallucination either. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 606 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.182 |
Pssst! Here is the funny part. we don't even believe in Satan. This is the first statement on the "Satanic" website. This sounds to me like 'egistentionalism'. (Not sure of the correct spelling). They lead a 'sort of' existence. A 'ka-sa-ra', lacadaisacal life, whatever will be will be. But then, when things don't go their way, they turn to magic.Psychiatrists would call that a sociopathic, narsicisstic personality disorder. They 'don't even believe in "satan"'. And yet they borrow the term which is the opposite of good, or God. They want to be 'separate' and yet desire membership in a group that by its very 'membership' does not separate. THE CARDINAL SINS OF SATANISM: Stupidity Pretentiousness Solissism; can be dangerous for satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities on someone who is far less attuned than you are. Self-deceit; we must not pay homage to any of the sacred-cows presented to us. Herd conformity; choosing a master wisely instead of going along with the herd. Forgetfulness of past orthodoxies: the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something 'new'. Counterproductive pride; the rule is 'if it works for you, good'. Lack of Aesthetics; its not what is 'supposed' to be pleasing, it is what is. Anton Levay 1987 Satanists need to throw away all teachings of LeVay or they are guilty of the cardinal sins of their 'religion'. They also would be committing a cardinal sin by joining a 'religion'. partial statement of a satanist on this site: I love me. I love my husband because he loves me. I love my animals. I love them more than destructive, unwanted children. I love my stuff. Membership or affiliation in the 'church of satan': We're looking for a few oustanding individuals. This is the 'only official website'. (says LeVay) Portions of interview with LeVay, (self-professed Head of the Church of Satan, Author of Satanic Bible, and Satanic Rituals): "Just sort of say, 'whatever it is, I'm against it.' Then they would have this breath of fresh air occasionally.""I assume no one had a gun held to their head to make them follow Adolf Hitler." Satanists are breaking their cardinal rules by following this MAN. They don't believe in living by rules but have rules. They don't believe in anyone but 'self' and yet they are herded by this man and his teachings. The ancient ways are supposed to be the 'only way' but they choose to follow what this man says and writes. (Unless they believe LeVay is ageless) LeVay calls 'the God issue', the Birth of Tragedy. Looks to me like satanists have their own selfprofessed god. Are they willing to live by the statement'whatever it is, I'm against it'? I'm really curious. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.179.98.130 |
God Child, Many Satanists despise Anton LaVey. I personally, am not a LaVeyan Satanist, as I have too many fundamental dissagreements with the Church of Satan. Just because he was a very prominent figure in on sect of Modern Satanism doesn't mean he spoke for all of us. I am not affiliated with any Satanist sect for that matter. I'm an unaffiliated Modern Satanist. And, many of the Traditional Satanists hate Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan with a passion, and visa versa. So, don't make sweeping generalizations about us like this. As for magick, it depends on what you consider it to be in the first place, and how you view the world. What you might view as coinsidence may be considered providence by someone else. It all depends on how you are viewing the same event. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 670 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.130 |
devilsad, I apologise for making a sweeping generalization about satanism. I, personally, do not believe in coincidence. I do believe in providence. But not by any power of man. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.227.221.19 |
God child, What ever helps ya understand the world best. I am not criticizing your view, I just make the case is that our personal beliefs definately have a powerful influence on how we see the world. I have even met folks who believe in both providence and the power to influence it. So, I guess it goes with how much of your life is predetermined and how much is individual choice. For example, I was predestined to be born into a family with mixed heritage. I could not change or influence that in any way. What I can change is how I view my life as a result. In this case, I take a proud view of such. But still, I can understand where you are coming from on LaVeyan Satanism entirely. Quite a few of them struck me as hypocritical and dogmatic too. | ||
| ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff) Intermediate Member Username: ball_of_fluff Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.107.60.82 |
I think that every religion, movement, philosophy, cult, mystic spelling bee, what have you, has its share of hypocrites amongst the sincere types. This is generally more a reflection on the individuals involved than on the afore mentioned ideologies, etc. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.227.221.19 |
Very true Fluff, very true. | ||
| pro610 (pro610) New member Username: pro610 Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.194.164.234 |
Satan is not a thoughtess thug but a skilled stategest.he "schemes".This is the Greek word "methodeia" from which we get our word "method" There is a method to his madness, a srategy behind his schemes. Satan is fighting to gain the tower of your mind. Picture your life as a city. Your values are the walls and your mind its towers. Satan knows that if he can capture your mind,he can crumble your values and control your life. Anyone who is in Christ has power over Satan Jesus Has already defeated Satan and has power over him . all you have to do is ask him and Satan will be crushed under your foot. Pray in the name of Jesus Christ for Satan to leave your mind and you life. {John 14:6) I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the father except through me | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 350 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
pro610 Anyone who is in Christ has power over Satan Jesus Has already defeated Satan and has power over him . all you have to do is ask him and Satan will be crushed under your foot. Pray in the name of Jesus Christ for Satan to leave your mind and you life. Jesus's victories over Satan seem temporary to me. Yeah, he might win once or twice, but you have to keep praying to Jesus to come destroy Satan again. It seems to me that no matter how "in Jesus" you are, there is always the worry of Satan making another attempt on you again. And if a person is "in Satan", do they have to worry about Jesus coming to get them? | ||
| pro610 (pro610) New member Username: pro610 Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 24.194.164.234 |
Yaakov Of course you will be tempted by Satan, especially if you have Christ in your life. Thats why the bible says in ephesians to put on the full armor of God. (Ephesians 6:11-13) Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil,s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,but against the authorities,against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. God gave us all free will also. Its our choice to choose to follow what is evil or what is good and from God. The person who is in satan has no armor to protect them.Satan has already deceived them. Even the ones Satan has mislead can be saved because Christ died on the cross for are Sins. All they have to do is ask Christ for forgiveness and except Him as Lord and savior. Being a Christian does not mean you will never be tempted.It means when you are tempted ,God will always give you a way out of temptation. The Choice is up to the individual to not give into temptation. I can tell you from my own experience.Its much more rewarding to belong to Christ then it is to be deceived by the devil. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
