The Carl Stevens' Legacy

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post Carl stevens legacy part two sister_mary 4  1  10-14-07  7:36 am   Start New Thread

Author Message   offshore (offshore) Member Username: offshore Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:19 pm:        I was a secretary for Carl Stevens from 1978 to 1984. Even before I became his secretary, I saw many things as an eye witness. In (Mass in 1977-78) there was a room adjacent to the rap room in Fokine. Stevens had a young, leggy brunette,( my closest friend), secretly live in that room at that time. I owned a key to that room. He secretly met with her in that room very often every day. She was available to him almost 24/7. I was in that room, that I saw Carl rolling around in the bed with her, holding and touching each other. His first wife was still alive. In fact, at the time, she was very sick and dying of cancer. [Scott Robinson and I saw it all. ] There were times that Scott and I saw her rolling on the floor with him, screaming and laughing, trying to grab his wig off. We were dying of embarrassment. It was wild. This is only two incidents out of hundreds. I took care of all his personal life, his checking, his bills, his hair, his apartment and home. I made his bed every morning after first class. I bought his clothes, washed and ironed them. I took care of “Telephone Time.” I read his letters and wrote replies to them. I corrected all his student homework and made up the tests, that included the branch extension schools. I took care of his office and worked in the secretarial pool. I also kept tabs on the 2 girls for him, reporting all the time. I would go to the drug store for one to get Demerol, or take her to the emergency room in order to get it for her headaches. $40.00 a week, and my room in Schermerhorne, was my pay. On Friday evenings, he would go out of town with one of the beautiful women ( after speaking at Framingham). Only one motel room was rented. I paid the bills. The girl tried to cover for it by explaining that she always slept in the car while he stayed in the motel room. Sometimes I brought one of the 2 girls in my car to Framingham, then when everything was over, I would drive home and they would take off together for the weekend. I was on call 24 hours a day and weekends. I arranged countless things. Countless times I met Carl and one of these girls at the toll booth in Lee. They had just finished spending a weekend alone together. They would drive as far as Lee. Then the girl would get in my car and we would drive back onto campus so no one would know they had been off together. He would drive through Lee and Lenox alone, waiving and smiling. If you ask if I saw them having sex, my answer is, No. This I DID see. I saw them going into a bed room together and coming out in the morning. I saw him unlocking theri bedroom door and walking in, in the middle of the night. I pulled earrings out of his bed in the morning. I saw Polaroid photographs next to his bed in seductive positions and mostly naked of one of the girls. No, I did not retrieve the forensic DNA. It was also part of my responsibility to see to it that each girl did not find out about each other, or bump into each other in the night. The two girls were extremely jealous of each other, and one could not even admit that the other was in his life. Some times evidence of one or the other was left in this room. Once, one freaked out and tore up,into a thousand peices,a whole set of professional photos of the other, because Stevens had forgotten to stash them in his locked safe. I saw Carl in Fokine, the afternoon his wife died. He was with Scott Robinson. Scott and I stayed in the rap room while he and the young woman went into the secret bedroom. He did not look like a grieving husband. Take my word for it I was asked to do many things, not only to cover for these particular atrocities but I was asked to spy on people, to listen, to report back to him about people, to report to him about dissention, to report about each of the women, to spy and go through people's waste baskets to find evidence that people were going to other churches. One of the girls and I were sent by him to spy in the windows of the “Ice House “ in Lee when he found out that a group was meeting there to discuss the Elliott Miller, and the abuse of spiritual authority issues. This is only the tip of the iceberg. I have not told everything by any means. There is much, much, MUCH more. I lived under a wave of defilement during my years there. I have dedicated much time to recovery. I have, and will go on, and it’s a miracle to me that I do have a deep and meaningful relationship with many friends, my wonderful husband and daughter and with God as well. He is a God of redemption.   bjerwin (bjerwin) Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 235 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.100.39 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:37 pm:        Good grief, darlin, I must have been blind deaf and dumb. I was his secretary from 74-78 or so and I never saw a darn thing like that. But I do not disbelieve you in the least. We were young, we were in love with the Lord Jesus, and we believed that what we were doing was right. This is why I am so disgusted in CHS. He took young folks that wanted the Lord Jesus, that came to grow and hear, and subjected them to that. He will have so very much to answer for in heaven if he does not repent. But you darlin, are a sweetheart of the Lord. Thank God, He is our redemption. Peace, lovely one.   knew_it_then (knew_it_then) New member Username: knew_it_then Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.250.154.141 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:38 pm:        My sister used to spend time with the family in the apartment next to the Stevens apartment (was that brick building called Bassett Hall?) in Lenox. She told me CHS would go upstairs in the afternoons to nap with a lady, this was after the first Barbara Stevens died. She said this happened alot. Paul, Melody and Donna were no longer living at home.   whitehorses (whitehorses) Intermediate Member Username: whitehorses Post Number: 278 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:03 pm:        carl a. stevens lived in carl henrys basement. i used to go over and visit him. i saw carl h and the blonde one coming out of his bedroom together many times. i doubt they were in there playing tiddly winks or grooming his toupee... (that was your job right offshore? lol)   tanglewood (tanglewood) New member Username: tanglewood Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:06 pm:        Offshore I have heard rumors about that but didn't know if they were true or not. Obviously they are! What else happened? How many secretaries did CHS have back then? How did that man preach what he did and be living like HELL????????? I really trusted that man as my Pastor. I don't think I could ever truley trust another Pastor as long as I'm living!   whitehorses (whitehorses) Intermediate Member Username: whitehorses Post Number: 279 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:07 pm:        i went into carl henrys office one time to seek counseling on a certain issue with a certain pastor. carls conversation kept veering off to my legs my stockings and my lips. he even asked me out of the blue... not even on the subject at hand... maaaaaaahgret... do you evah get lonely?? how was i supposed to take THAT one?   nonotone (nonotone) Intermediate Member Username: nonotone Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.211.160.204 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:35 pm:        Thanks Offshore, I've just read it twice - sends chills down my spine. Do you plan to write more? I believe you completely because I've tried to verify all of this in the past year and your story corroborates exactly what Jim Faucett and others have told me. Honestly, by the time I got to Baltimore for Bible School in the fall of 1996, Carl was teaching us in in ABD that "during the sickness of his first wife Barbara and his subsequent "widowerhood" he didn't even have a neeeeeed for sex and dated Barbara Baum" every 6 weeks or so for coffee" for at least the first 2-3 years. Carl admitted to kissing Barbara ONCE before marriage and it was there and then that God told him he must practice and teach "No Touch Love". Carl "hammered us" with this in ABD and said that he did not even masturbate (perish the thought ) during his 6.5 years of "celibacy" in Lenox. Looks like Carl "No Touch Love" Stevens didn't need to wank. He had his own miniature (and portable) concubinage right there in his little ole Bible School in the Berkshires. . . . is the this the "anointing" we want to follow? Nooooo, friends this is complete perversion. Nearly all married men (who are honest at least) struggle with desire (even if it's just momentary) for women other then their wives. Single men wage a similar battle. The solution is recognizing that unchecked lust is sin, confessing it, and being accountability to other Christian men (and to our wives if we are married) - not living in unbridled licentious adulterating and fornicating. However, for Carl to live in this kind of super-charged deceitful lust WHILE arrogating "practical Apostleship" to himself (or at the very least allowing others to do so) is NOTHING MORE than a CULTIC LIE. Face it folks, this is THE MORAL FOUNDATION that TBS/GGWO's antinomian doctrinal non-sense is built upon. Brian Bowman John 3:21 (Message edited by nonotone on May 24, 2005)   2goforward (2goforward) New member Username: 2goforward Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.17.8.203 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:35 pm:        Wow, offshore. Did that bring back memories! I was not privy to the intimate details that you were, but can verify the general points of your post. The room at Fokine used to make me so mad--it was so obvious, although I was never actually inside. We obviously knew each other but I can't figure out who you are--SB(now SG?), NB(then ND&NG?),the other SB? RM? Not JK. Now you have me guessing...?! I'm drawing a blank!   jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy) Intermediate Member Username: jim_kennedy Post Number: 127 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 172.172.175.83 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:56 pm:        Offshore, I am stunned but not surprised. NO TOUCH LOVE. What the hell was that all about? A sick joke? Jim   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Junior Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:29 pm:        Offshore....gosh, I don't know what to say. I am sitting here crying after reading about the life you had in Lenox. I am so glad that you and your famiy aren't there anymore. The few years at Lenox, I always thought it a blessing to know you. I used to think that you were one of the few "normal secretaries" there....I was right! May God continue to bless you, heal you and give you all of your heart's desires.   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 188 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.157.18.106 Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:37 pm:        I always wondered why the women followed Pastor around like little puppies, the dude is ugly!!! Maybe they saw something I didn't, but I doubt it.   bob_brinton (bob_brinton) Advanced Member Username: bob_brinton Post Number: 907 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 141.154.178.53 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:03 am:        Pressing On, At least some of them saw something you didn't. Aren't you glad you didn't?   bjerwin (bjerwin) Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 238 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.100.39 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:42 am:        Mrs. Drysdale... what do you mean by one of the few "normal" secretaries? LOLOL... You are so darn funny!!! Great way to start my day... I am totally lost in space by who you are offshore... If you want to talk feel free to email me at merwin1@tampabay.rr.com...or bje@hilbertlawgroup.com. I am very sad that you had to be put through all that chit... I was "in the dark" about so much....just one of the abnormal secretaries... LOLOL... all that and for a whopping $10 a week... boy you must have been good at what you did Offshore...$40 a week... maybe that's why I only got $10.00. (Just joking here of course... I have to laugh to keep from crying sometimes)... God bless you, darlin.   bob_brinton (bob_brinton) Advanced Member Username: bob_brinton Post Number: 909 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.238.67 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:15 am:        Wow BJ, Mary got $15. I didn't realize she was so highly esteemed.   bob_brinton (bob_brinton) Advanced Member Username: bob_brinton Post Number: 910 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.238.67 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:17 am:        Then again Dean (B., not L.) was good at pulling strings.   bjerwin (bjerwin) Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 240 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.100.39 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:19 am:        I just remembered something that really pisses (insert apology to the non cursers here)... Mike and I got married in February 78. One month before, Barbara died. For months before the wedding I was fighting off "evil thoughts" that CHS was (as Whitehorse so ably put it) playing tiddly winks with a woman. A couple of days before the wedding, I went to Pastor (his daughter Melody was there with him) and repented for all my evil thoughts about him bonking this woman. He and Melody smiled and forgave me, and said in so many words... go and sin no more... Now I find out all this? What the hell... Someone in here once (Roberta) said where was my head buried... LOL... I guess so. Buried right up someone's ass I'd say... Oh well... thanks for sharing Offshore. I guess it was way better to be in the dark, than to have to live with what you did. God bless you... Your faith must be great. Peace   nonotone (nonotone) Intermediate Member Username: nonotone Post Number: 180 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.211.160.204 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:58 am:        Doris, $25 per week is a LIE. Many make between $200 and $400 per week. Brian Bowman   herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness) Advanced Member Username: herroyalhighness Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.97.250.114 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:46 am:        Offshore - Oh, the memories you brought to the surface!!! That beautiful back room saw more action than anyone could have imagined! (Gross - but true nonetheless.) However, I'm really confused...according to CHS teaching you should be having a miserable life about now - because I'm sure it was only "Satan" trying to make you believe that you saw all of those things, because it certainly could not have really happened - because Pastah is pure and to quote him "never had an impure thought." Oh Right!!!! It would really be funny if it wasn't so nauseating, repellent, revolting, grotesque, repulsive, sordid, and down right gross! Have a good day...I expect to see you soon!   david_munson (david_munson) New member Username: david_munson Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.159.188.76 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:54 am:        Offshore,I ask this not as an attack so please do not be offended. Why did you go along with the cover up?Where you coersed in any way? Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia Dave}   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:09 am:        BJ......fret not... u b a normal one chickie! lol I think the only conversations you and I ever had was "hello". We didn't work in the same building, so I didn't see you that much. I was talking about........oh crap, you know what I meant............lol   out_for_good (out_for_good) New member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.16 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:18 am:        Offshore- I know who you are and believe what you have to say. I was around then, too. There were times I was asked to drive "B" somewhere so that Carl could be with "R". I was too naive and loyal at the time to suspect the depravity of what was going on. In retrospect, everything sure does add up.   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.157.18.106 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:28 am:        As Pastor would say, Judge not by the sight of your eyes or the hearing of your ears. Geesh, I wonder why this was one of his favorite verses. Sorry I keep using the word Pastor- CHS Gotta break that habit. (Message edited by pressing_on on May 24, 2005)   offshore (offshore) Member Username: offshore Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:51 am:        I just got up and read these responses. Thanks you for your love and support. I feel slimed this morning after thinking about it all and writing it down. I had very weird dreams all night. The woman, "Really", wanted some facts and it got me thinking. People should know the truth. I do not fear God for myself, however, for a long time after I left TBS, I did think I was going to come down with a sickness and die. Finally, while driving home from work one night, I just screamed out to God, "OK...if you’re going to kill me, do it now because I'm so sick of living under this fear, and it would better to be dead than to live like this. Go ahead and do it now, or forget it." I made it home fine. I realized that it wasn't going to happen and that it was a LIE implanted by a manipulative, self serving man to us all to keep us there and in fear. A form of Brainwashing? That’s what the Cult experts say. Thanks Dave for the sensitivity in asking your very important question. It’s one I have thought about for 20 years, and it’s the reason I have had to get much inner healing. Anovus will be answering it for me in a while. I want you to know though, my heart was pure in that I thought I was serving God there and it never crossed my mind that they were actually "Doing it". Call it being naive, brainwashed or whatever, my mind didn't think in those terms. I was 28 when I married my husband, and our wedding night was a first for me. So, I simply did not think that could be a possibility. After all, you “don’t question God’s man.” Maybe, as I said yesterday in a post to “Really", I didn't want to think "an evil thought" against God's man. After I got out and some time passed, my mind cleared and I began to see things and remember things. That’s when the remorse set in for me and the defilement. Also the loss of my friends left back in TBS because I was then considered the “Enemy”. Now I can see that , that too, was for Carl’s benefit because he didn’t want me talking. HE is the one who was in fear. He knew everything I knew. He is very good at what he does the best, he’s a master manipulator. That’s when I got help. Anovus will answer more in a while. I thank God for all of you and it's really my prayer that He can use this to help others get out and get free. I am so thankful we are all together in this and not alone as before. It’s good that everything is coming into the Light.   out_for_good (out_for_good) New member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.16 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:04 am:        Offshore- I can remember times when Scott would talk about being loyal to CHS and tell me that even if someone were to show pictures of CHS having an affair, it would just be a satanic set up to discredit God's man. All the while he knew just what was really going on! I bought it all, hook, line and sinker.   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 602 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:08 am:        Offshore, I think I know just how you feel about this. It is so difficult to expose all this stuff. You want people to know the truth and have the opportunity to deal with it but it often feels like defilement all over again to reveal it all over again. It's hard for us to see this as a service to the body of christ, but it is and it must all come out into the light. I know you are covered today with your husbands love, what you've learned since leaving and all the things God him self does when things like this are brought into the light (yes, I'm afraid to mention the scriptures!!) I hope Really will read what you write. I hope she wasn't too overwhelmed by the little tiny bit that was shared with her yesterday. Maybe she'll get refreshed and come back. I have heard other people's testimonies concerning what you wrote. They are from different angles, but the same behavior. Maybe someday they will join you in telling.   sidethorn (sidethorn) Intermediate Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 174 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:14 am:        Thanks for the posts Offshore. They sure show Carl Stevens as the total hypocrite that he is. He puts others under the bondage of no touch love and then enjoyed a whole lot of touching of girls he wasn't even married to. I never did believe that no touch love crap and never will. Carl sure didn't have a servant's or a shepard's heart either like a true pastor would. Amazing how he wanted you to even wash his clothes and make his bed for him. What a lazy jackass. He sure wanted everyone to serve him. What did he give us in return? Carl gave us a legacy of lies, manipulation, slander, and abuse. What a legacy!!   aurora (aurora) Intermediate Member Username: aurora Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.30.49.45 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:27 am:        A message for Carl (for surely he reads factnet!): Well, your sin has sure found you out, buddy. We've got your number and we are going to tell everyone who will listen (or read here)! There ain't nowhere to hide now- you slimy dude you....   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 755 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:44 am:        I want to thank all of you for your responses to my wife's posting. [Offshore is my wife.] Dave Munson asked a very good question. How could she have gone along with all of this? First of all, let me say that I was privy to much of what Offshore saw (I'll tell a story about that, later). How could we have seen all of this stuff and gone along with it!?!?!? Here is the answer: Just listen to Tom Schaller's message of Sunday morning, May 15. We were taught that our minds and emotions are corrupt so we must not trust them. As Schaller said, "What seems good may actually be bad. What seems bad may actually be good." Since our thought processes and perceptions are fallen we must simply live by faith and trust in delegated authority. If it appears delegated authority is doing something wrong, then it means WE are deceived. And to talk about it will bring God's judgment and punishment down on us! We were taught that we were ONLY to the "think the best" NO MATTER WHAT! Think of it. You are living on campus. You wake up to a tape in the dorm playing this message. You go to breakfast, and we're talking this message in the cafeteria. We go to Stevens' morning class and hear this message. Then we go to telephone time and hear this message, then to more classes, services raps. Then we go home to our dorm room, and the tapes are playing. And on and on and on. It's ALL we hear! After hundreds of these messages, you learn to suppress truth in your mind and heart. You learn to see actions that are bad and call them good. And not only are we HEARING the message, we are in a culture where this message is lived out non-stop 24/7. We are surrounded by brothers and sisters, as well as our spiritual fathers and mothers, who are LIVING this message. If we dare to step out of this message and question, we will be rebuked. This is how we went along with all of this. It is very scary to consider. We saw things that were obviously wrong, obviously sinful. But those things we saw had to pass through hundreds of layers of filters in our mind. Those filters told us, “don’t live by sight,” “you’re in the flesh,” “you’re questioning delegated authority,” “you’re a fallen creature, and can’t trust anything you see and think,” “you’re in the greatest ministry in the world and under the most anointed man of God in the world,” “love covers a multitude of sin,” “we all have our faults, even Pastor, so I’ll ignore his faults” and on and on. The truth of what we saw was caught and trapped by all those filters. The filters blinded us to reality and to truth. And we became part of the circle of deceit, lies, and hypocrisy. Anovus   lana (lana) Junior Member Username: lana Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.240.205.61 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:46 am:        I wonder how many of the pastors knew about this. Its awful. We trusted him with our whole hearts. I had suspicions, but tried not to believe them until I saw him clutching Roberta once. Maybe she will write a book sometime.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 757 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:17 am:        Knew it Then wrote, "My sister used to spend time with the family in the apartment next to the Stevens apartment (was that brick building called Bassett Hall?) in Lenox. She told me CHS would go upstairs in the afternoons to nap with a lady..." Go upstairs to nap with a lady. TO NAP. This is a perfect example of someone who was trained to see no evil. The women sees with her own eyes Pastor going up to his bedroom with a beautiful women. That fact then slowly drips down through all the "doctinal" filters placed in that women's mind. The end result?: Pastor and the beautiful women are just taking naps. Anyone who had NOT been indoctrinated by TBS/GG would have been able to see the situation for what it was. This women had been indoctrinated. So she was unable to see simple truth put before her very eyes, time and time, again. Scary. Anovus   sidethorn (sidethorn) Intermediate Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 177 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:34 am:        Anova - Your posts are so enlightening. Thanks and especially the for the info on Schaller's May 15 message. What he said about suppressing our minds, thought processes and emotions (and instinct) is cultic manipulation and control. This is blind obedience with the humans will, conscience, and independent thinking processes all set aside. These are some of the reasons Greater Grace is a mind control cult. Period. Schaller is a classic cult leader just like Carl. He continues to lead the poor, decieved, used, abused flock of people who don't know how to think for themselves and blindly follow the delegated authority. The stuff about living on campus and hearing all the bull 24/7 is scary. No wonder so many are so brainwashed. They've tried to suppress the truth for so many years to keep all this crap happening, but no longer. Now thank God we have the Internet and FACTNET. The real truth is coming out and Carl's legacy of being a dangerous cult leader is coming out in the open. Hopefully many will escape this GGWO cult or avoid it altogether before they have to suffer any more from it.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 758 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:44 am:        Here's another related story. This took place sometime, I think, in 1979 or 1980... The ministry owned a very large, beautiful (but unfurnished) home in Gloucester, Mass., right on the coast. The many bay windows looked right out onto the water. For many months, Carl kept his leggy brunette in this house. She stayed in the only fully furnished room in the house (as I remember). Next to her room, was a connecting room which had only a mattress on the floor Behind the house, in a small cottage, a sweet middle-aged couple lived. They were the caretakers. They were loyal followers who had two daughters in bible college in Lenox. Their last name started with the letter T. One time, Offshore and I spent the night in the main house along with Carl and his leggy, brunette. When it was time for bed, we walked down the hall to the unfurnished room we would be sleeping in. Carl and his leggy brunette walked down the hall in the other direction toward the sole furnished bedroom. We said our 'good nights." I turned back toward them and jokingly said, "Now you two behave yourselves!!" The leggy brunette turned and gave me a look that could kill. Now, I made that remark jokingly because I truly BELIEVED that Pastor and the leggy, brunette would NEVER actually do anything sinful. For me, the thought of them actually sleeping together was such an impossibility, that I could joke about it! Can all of you see what I'm trying to say, here? We saw something very wrong, something with all the "appearances of evil," yet we couldn't SEE it!! The sweet couple who lived behind the house saw these things going on for a long, long time. But though they saw it with their own eyes, they couldn't really SEE it. We had been blinded to the reality that was right before our eyes!! We had been blinded by the years and years of "awesome messages" of the finished work, delegated authority, body life, etc., etc. etc. Anovus   joyce (joyce) New member Username: joyce Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.175.245.20 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:51 am:        Back in 1985 I went to CHS for counseling after my husband and I separated. I was extremely distraught, to say the least, and needed.....help, I guess. We spoke very little about my life, children, family. He ended up slandering a friend of my husbands', who at the time was enjoying an "alternate lifestyle" (the friend) and told me: "Joyce, I doubt if he can even get an erection. Is that the right word, dear?" I was dumbfounded!! What did that have to do with my broken marriage? But, he said it. I buried it and because he was "pastor", let him get away with it. This is "small potatoes" compared to what Offshore witnessed. (And Bravo! Offshore! You did a good thing.) This makes my blood boil. How people "winked" at this is shameful, but I did it, too.   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 603 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:57 am:        Anova, thanks to you and Offshore. It must take a lot to tell what you know. I'm interested in a discussion about blindness. Why do we choose it? Why do we stay in it and how do we get out of it? Did Really get overwhelmed by the truth and go away? Is she afraid of what else she might find out. This isn't directed mainly at Really, but many come up close and then back off, seemingly to stay in their closed world. How did it happen for you two?   babybear (babybear) New member Username: babybear Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 69.250.131.89 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:59 am:        Dear Offshore, Thank you so very much for sharing your story....this will set many hearts free...if that man (Stevens) had ever truly repented and changed his ways, he would have had to repent to a lot of people including you....which never was done.....I cannot believe I have esteemed that man for so many years (20 in my case) as being humble and righteous...I do not believe anyone could have been having affairs and at the same time have been anointed ....I think what people have thought was anointed was just a strong manipulative personality....thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing...and Anovus too....this has helped me tremendously...   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 759 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:02 pm:        In Lenox, in the early 70's/late 80's, Dan Lewis lived in a house right at the entrance of the main campus. We all drove by it many times a day. Even if you lived off-campus everyone would have to drive by it to go to service. When we drove by that house, we saw his parking lot. We saw what was IN his parking lot: a steady stream of big, beautiful, VERY expensive cars. The kind of cars that NO one on campus could have even thought of being able to afford. But Dan Lewis had them. And a new one seemed to appear in his driveway every few weeks. Most of us were living on very little. We gave so much to the ministry. We ate meager meals in the cafeteria: a piece of bologna and a popsicle. We lived in dorms that were filthy and smelly. Yet, we all drove and walked by Dan Lewis's house watching an ever changing stream of luxurious cars, and WE NEVER THOUGHT A THING ABOUT IT! Well, some of us might have thought something, at first. But then the obvious realization of seeing something evil dripped down through all those doctrinal filters until we saw nothing wrong. What was clearly wrong, in our minds, became right. This is what it means to be in a cult. Anovus   friendinchrist (friendinchrist) Junior Member Username: friendinchrist Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.34.76.34 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:19 pm:        Anovus, Any chance Dr. Lewis was renting those cars? My uncle did this quite often during the 70s when I was growing up. I'm not defending his actions, but there may be a logical explanation.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 761 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:22 pm:        Margo, Joyce, Your stories! Small snapshots that reveal so much. They reveal so much about Carl. They reveal so much about how we put up with so much without being able to look at the truth squarely in the face. Thinking of Carl saying, "...Is that the right word, dear?" sends chills up my spine. Anovus   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 763 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:35 pm:        friendinchrist, Yes, it is POSSIBLE that Lewis was renting the cars. But if my memory serves me well, this was all taking place before the car rental thing was really happening in the Berkshires. Let's say he was renting those cars. The rental costs for those cars had to have been VERY expensive, even if he was renting. Also, how could he have dispensed with the rental contracts so swiftly in order to have a new car in his driveway every few weeks. We were giving our all, living in practically in poverty while he lived in luxury. Bought, rented, it's all the same thing. Hypocrisy. It also widely known that Dan Lewis was sent off to the mission field (as he so often was) in order to cover up some financial indescretions at the time. There are others who have personal knowlege of this that I do not have. Perhaps they could comment. Anovus I think the real issue is this: In a ministry where people were thinking clearly, where mind-control was not being practised, this "appearance of evil" would be something we would allow ourselves to think about. We would be able to talk about it, ask questions about it. Not in TBS/GG. None of those things were allowed! To do any of those things would be considered rebellion against God! That is why it was/is a cult. (Message edited by anova on May 24, 2005)   anon_brief (anon_brief) Intermediate Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 362 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.22.106.155 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:39 pm:        Lies. Deception. Manipulation. Serial adultery. CHS is not a little "fuzzy around the edges" due to the recent effects of aging.   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:40 pm:        anova....bologna & popcicles....I remember it well. you didn't complain because you were being prepped for the mission field   iris (iris) New member Username: iris Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 80.221.64.212 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:42 pm:        It's interesting, this theme of seeing but not seeing. There was a huge church scandal in Sweden last year. It was a spin of murder and sex. There was a pastor who used to sleep in the same room with their au pair while his wife was sleeping in another room. Those who saw that, didn't think anything of it, because after all he was a pastor and a holy man. They couldn't even imagine, that they would actually do "it" there. She must have been there just to help him, when he had back ache, was their explanation in the court. But the pastor had been sending to her love letters and sexual text messages and it was a full blown sexual relationship. The wife ended up murdered. http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=453&date=20041001 (Message edited by iris on May 24, 2005)   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 764 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:46 pm:        Mrs. Drysdale, Yes! The bologna and popsicles were a PRIVILEGE! By the way, here is an interesting fact: A continual diet that is too low in protein affects a person's thinking process. It makes one more open to suggestion and less able to think critically. A diet low in protein has been used by many cults. I don't believe this was being administered intentionally in Lenox. But nevertheless, it was done, and it had its' effect. Anovus   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 54 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:50 pm:        I don't bologna anymore   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:51 pm:        ooops...I meant to say "eat bologna",,,,but I just realized that I don't "take any bologna" anymore either. lol   jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy) Intermediate Member Username: jim_kennedy Post Number: 133 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 172.148.29.144 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:57 pm:        One of my favorites was a plain omlette with a lettuce salad. Stories like this need to be told. And it is true, we were bombarded with TBS doctrine morning noon and night and it inhibited our ability to sort things out. It had to have been done intentionally. It was also hard to leave after burning so many bridges with family and friends. Many of us were broke and had no where else to go. Thanks Offshore and Anovus. Jim   quot_licet (quot_licet) New member Username: quot_licet Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 203.218.94.16 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:57 pm:        could you please tell me what's bologna? As an ex-member of overseas mission I have missed out the GG cuisine but suppose it should not be better than GG teachings.. (Message edited by quot_licet on May 24, 2005)   sidethorn (sidethorn) Intermediate Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 178 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:15 pm:        Bologna and baloney. What a diet of food and teaching at GGWO!!   out_for_good (out_for_good) New member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.17 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:25 pm:        I know that the cars (at least some of them) weren't rented. I personally went to the registry and registered them to The Bible Speaks! There was at least one registered to ServiceMaster (the cleaning company some Bible School students slaved at). I also went and picked up some of the accessories for the luxury vehicles (after I picked up the check from the business office, of course). Nothing was too good for God's servant. How about the amount of money that went into those ballfields in Lenox?? All because CHS loved to play softball. We spent thousands to have the same infield as Fenway Park. What the heck was I thinking all of those years??!   david_munson (david_munson) Junior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.159.128.179 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:32 pm:        I feel that I must add this little interjection because it has tremendous meaning,all things considered. Often I have acted in the gift of the prophetic. I am not nor would I dare claim to be a prophet. I am very careful not to just speak things out without a strong witness of the Holy Spirits motivation. For exsample,I once told a newly married couple that God was going to bless them with a chid. The responce was from the woman "I don't want to hurt your faith but I cannot because of medical reasons,have children." I responded that if it was not from the Lord ignore it.She had a baby boy nine months later. Now,this is not to build myself up to anyone in any fashion,I'm just a believer like any one of you. Here is where I am going with this. Sometimes I do not know when the gift is in operation till much later. Years ago I asked carl what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was.I didn't really feel satisfied with the answer that was given.I know now that my question was ,how do I put it?,an operation of the prophetic.Here's why I state that. I have researched what nicolaitan means. Nicolaitans Re 2:6,14-15. Irenaeus (Haer. 1:26, section 3) and Tertullian (Praescr. Haeret. 46) explain, followers of Nicolas one of the seven (Ac 6:3,5) as there was a Judas among the twelve; confounding the later Gnostic Nicolaitans with those of Michaelis explains Nicolas (conqueror of the people) is the Greek for the Hebrew Balsam ("destroyer of the people," bela' 'am); as we find both the Hebrew and Greek names, Abaddon, Apollyon; Satan, devil. A symbolical name. Lightfoot suggests a Hebrew interpretation, nikola, "let us eat"; compare 1Co 15:32. Not a sect, but professing Christians who, Balsam like, introduce a false freedom, i.e. licentiousness. A reaction from Judaism, the first danger of the church. The Jerusalem council (Ac 15:20,29), while releasing Gentile converts from legalism, required their abstinence from idol meats and concomitant fornication. The Nicolaitans abused Paul's doctrine of the grace of God into lasciviousness; such seducers are described as followers of Balsam, also in 2Pe 2:12-13,15-19; Jg 1:4,7-8,11 ("the son of Bosor" for Beor, to characterize him as "son of carnality": bosor "flesh"). They persuaded many to escape obloquy by yielding as to "eating idol meats," which was then a test of faithfulness (compare 1 Corinthians 8 and 1Co 10:25-33); they even joined in the "fornication" of the idol feasts, as though permitted by Christ's "law of liberty." The "lovefeasts" (Jg 1:12) thus became pagan orgies. The Nicolaitans combined evil "deeds" which Jesus "hates" with evil "doctrine." Re 2:13-14 This was bad enough, but there was a yet worse evil. Mingling themselves in the orgies of idolatrous feasts, they brought the impurities of those feasts into the meetings of the Christian Church. And all this was done, it must be remembered not simply as an indulgence of appetite: but as a part of a system, supported by a "doctrine," accompanied by the boast of a prophetic illumination, Further the word nicaio means ,to control ,bring under subjection ,Lord it over ,have dominion over. Who is refered to? Laity,the people. Therefore we devolope the word nicolaitan.Nicaio + laity. It was years before I found this out. I find this to be very interesting and sad. Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia, Dave}   anon_brief (anon_brief) Intermediate Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 363 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.22.106.155 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:33 pm:        Bologna is an inexpensive luncheon meat. It looks like a giant hot dog, but is sliced and served cold. (Except for fried bologna sandwiches, served by poor mothers everywhere in an attempt to camouflage the fact that you were getting the same thing for dinner that you had for lunch. This phenomenon is similar to the three states of matter - fried bologna, bologna sandwiches, and frozen hotdogs.)   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 604 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:35 pm:        Gee, I wonder if the ballfields and luxury vehicles for Lewis were stipulations in the gifts Betsy gave. quot licet, bologna or baloney is a processed sandwich meat made of animal parts all smashed together and made flat. Similar to hot dogs. Many of us grew up on such stuff! Some of it is made with all beef, some not. Make you hungry for american cuisine?   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:42 pm:        Some people ate bologna and some of us ate polenta. Served in the morning with sugar and milk, if there was any. Lunch was leftover and supper was served with tomato sauce, if you were lucky! You could make it firm or soft. Anon's comment triggered a memory from my early days! I still love hot dogs. Can't wait for the warm weather to finally get here and grill some outside. Used to get them at Fenway Park, but I'd have to mortgage the house to get a ticket now.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 765 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:52 pm:        out_for_good, Thanks for the first hand info. A business office check to pay for accessories for a luxury vehicle? We may have been giving as unto God, but the leaders were taking God's money and consuming it on their abundant flesh. Anovus   whitehorses (whitehorses) Intermediate Member Username: whitehorses Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:57 pm:        hahahaaaaa abundant flesh (is that a double entendre anova... in reference to danny boy?)   out_for_good (out_for_good) New member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.17 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:59 pm:        Anovus- those payments were the tip of a giant iceberg.   quot_licet (quot_licet) New member Username: quot_licet Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 203.218.94.16 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:00 pm:        Lee and Anon, thank you for clarification. I live in Hong Kong as an expat and anything resembling western food make me drool so I think I would appreciate bologna sandwich right now. I did not develop a taste to Carl's teaching though and dropped GG church I attended in Russia at the very early stage of involvement.   out_for_good (out_for_good) New member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.17 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:04 pm:        Offshore- I'd venture to say all of Carl's week-end adventures and escapades (motels, and other expenses associated with keeping two women) were paid from ministry money as well, right? Wasn't the source of all the bills you paid for him ministry money?   out_for_good (out_for_good) Junior Member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.17 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:06 pm:        Offshore- I'd venture to say all of Carl's week-end adventures and escapades (motels, and other expenses associated with keeping two women) were paid from ministry money as well, right? Wasn't the source of all the bills you paid for him ministry money?   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 3:06 pm:        How about that ballfield....I remember getting yelled at once for throwing a baseball around with someone...isn't that what you do at a baseball field? We were told no one was allowed on the field ...yet more bologna flies... Weekend meals seemed to be worse than during the week. Ah the fish chowder..complete with eye balls....   alien (alien) New member Username: alien Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 62.121.45.91 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 3:10 pm:        so bad, so sad   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 3:13 pm:        I never liked the pleas for more money in the offering either. I remember a time when they took another offering because there wasn't enough money in the plate. That was the day I stopped putting my $1 in the offering. I guess when you lead a lifestyle that is filled with so much glitz and glamour you need alot more money to do it. To this day I still have a problem with giving to my church. My husband says I am just cheap, but it's not..it comes from a church I attended long long ago.........   karen (karen) Intermediate Member Username: karen Post Number: 226 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.128.118.166 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:07 pm:        Curly Owens came to Lenox, spoke of miraculous provisions (like finding a paper bag filled with hundreds of dollars in a telephone booth), exhorted the congregation to trust God, and people gave and gave--well above their means. Then I heard Carl say that he knew there was more money to be squeezed out of the church. He didn't much like Owens' theology, but he loved his ability to separate the pew-sitter from his $. Moment of clarity.   offshore (offshore) Member Username: offshore Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:21 pm:        I remember Stevens pounding his fist on his desk one day in his office. He was so angry and screamed, "Other ministries get millionaires, I want one too." This was a about a year before Betsy came on the scene. He set Barbara onto her immediately to befriend her. Betsy had no idea what was about to hit her. Like so many of us, she was just looking for God and freindship. What he had planned was a masterpeice of manipulation. "Out for Good", I'm so glad you are out for good! The question about ministry funds? He always delt with Cash. I had his check book and he gave me what ever I needed to cover the bills but not anything much. He had a safe in his bedroom and one in his bathroom,(for the toupee). I don't know what he was paid weekly, but it was in cash. Always cash.   herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness) Advanced Member Username: herroyalhighness Post Number: 612 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.97.250.114 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:30 pm:        Off - you've got mail!   in_shock (in_shock) New member Username: in_shock Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 65.94.126.9 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:32 pm:        Hello Offshore: Glad you started this thread. Personally, I would like all the dirt to come out ASAP, so if there is more from you and other sources too, please let-'r-rip. I hate to be duped, so I want the "Whole truth, and nothing but the truth". Do you think this will hit the media too when the dynasty falls? There are people in my church who still "want to cover him".   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:04 pm:        You are right Offshore, we all came looking for God and friendship and look what happened...I never dreamed that going to bible school would be so totally crapulous! Thank God for the garment of praise that God's word tells us to put on. That is what sustains us now.   jeannie (jeannie) Advanced Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 979 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:22 pm:        Thank you Offshore for your truthful posts of the past. I have gotten to know you well, I stayed in your lovely home... I see you as this graceful, kind, and very strong woman of faith. But reading the initial post I realize how far you have come since your time as Carl's secretary. Carl may have been sexually abusing young women, but he was spiritually abusing you. There is something very sadistic about it. He knew you knew and he played mind games on you. He did things that he knew would harm your soul and he did not care.. or maybe he was sick enough to even enjoy it. I am disgusted and angry that the man you loved and treated as a father, raped your soul. Your life now is a testament of your strength and your desire to serve the Lord. I love you! Anovus, thank you for pointing us once again to the past and the present which are very connected. What is occurring in GG now, Schaller's mind control and manipulation of our young people is intricately connected to the stories your wife is sharing. It will remove blinders, it forces those experiencing a little bit of the light for the first time, to begin to put the pieces of the puzzle together and really "see".. thank you!   offshore (offshore) Member Username: offshore Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:37 pm:        So you want more, eh? There may be more coming on board to add their experiences, in the near future. Also, as I think of things and get inspired, I will post. No reason to hold back now! Anovus has plenty of stories to tell as well. I'm sure many people do!!   offshore (offshore) Member Username: offshore Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:40 pm:        Jeannie, Thank you.   bob_brinton (bob_brinton) Advanced Member Username: bob_brinton Post Number: 911 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.238.67 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:20 pm:        Personally, I thought Roberta's attitude made her unattractive. Legs aren't everything. And that thing with trying to go one note higher every time she sang was incredibly obnoxious. I hope she learned something from all that. I don't think I was here yet when she used to post.   shat_happens (shat_happens) Junior Member Username: shat_happens Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.58.112.179 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:51 pm:        LOL i love the part about them rollin' around on the floor going at his twopay! and you have NO clue how much i'd love to see those pics lol heck if i thought this story was true i might even make some up myself, but i'd rather be safe than sorry in this case! http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/   nonotone (nonotone) Intermediate Member Username: nonotone Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.211.160.204 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:21 pm:        Doris, Yes, it's true, many of the "back office gals" in GGWO were paid between $200 and $400 per week - at least they were around the turn of the new millennium. Brian Bowman John 3:21   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:54 pm:        Poor Roberta honestly i feel bad for her. Gave all this time and effort to please pastor who was only out to please himself dissing her in the end. Atleast she is married to a loving Pastor now who cares for her. She was probably just looking for a father figure and got sifted by the most demented one.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 768 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:57 pm:        THE FOLLOWING STORY IS REALLY DISTASTEFUL. IT IS, HOWEVER, TRUE. PROCEED WITH CAUTION... [My wife, Offshore, didn't want to tell this story, herself. I am telling it for her. So consider it a first-hand story.] As Offshore told you, one of her jobs was to clean Carl Stevens' office in Schermerhorn, this included his bathroom. This job was particularly unpleasant for a particular reason. The reason it was unpleasant was that Carl often didn't use the toilet paper after using the toilet. Instead of using the toilet paper to wipe his backside, he wiped himself with his navy blue handtowels. My wife also had to do his laundry. So this meant she had to also handle his "used" handtowels. Carl knew this. I wonder how much he thought about it everytime he wiped himself. I know this story is disgusting. Why tell it? We tell it because it says something about this man: among other things, his perverse desire to defile and humiliate. Somehow, the full import of what he did is only hitting me now as I write this to you. When I think of it now, and I think of my wonderful little wife, I could take those damn "used" handtowels and cram them down his f*****g throat. One more thing to forgive. Anovus (Message edited by anova on May 24, 2005) (Message edited by anova on May 24, 2005) (Message edited by anova on May 24, 2005)   tanglewood (tanglewood) New member Username: tanglewood Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:11 pm:        Oh how sick, what a sick asshole!!!!! If he wiped his penis with a hand towel, I wonder what he wiped his ass with???????????   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 227 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:20 pm:        He really has some issues!! Not that you all don't know that. Tanglewood, just a side not men don't wipe their scrodum, they shake it He probably could use a good counselor, Got any suggestions?   tanglewood (tanglewood) New member Username: tanglewood Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:22 pm:        Anova Did Carl use protection while he was having sex with all these women??   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:25 pm:        Probably not he was probably shooting duds   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 770 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:26 pm:        Wait a second guys. I'm not talking about him wiping his p. He was wiping his backside. That's what he left for my wife to clean up. Anovus (Message edited by anova on May 24, 2005)   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 229 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:26 pm:        Sorry don't mean to be so insensitive, its really sickening. Makes me want to projectile vomit   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 231 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:28 pm:        I think we have gone waaaaaaaaaay off here!!!!!   tanglewood (tanglewood) New member Username: tanglewood Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:29 pm:        Ok now we are talking down and dirty, I used his bathroom once during convention and I used his handtowels! What a sick BASTARD.   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 232 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:33 pm:        Better start scrubbing those hands.   joyce (joyce) New member Username: joyce Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.195.165.56 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:39 pm:        How totally insulting for your dear wife.   minutus (minutus) Advanced Member Username: minutus Post Number: 753 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.99.113.170 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:48 pm:        I think all this qualifies him for the title of "Crapulous Jerk" in a major way. I am laughing and crying at the same time to hear of a sister in the Lord treated so.   tanglewood (tanglewood) New member Username: tanglewood Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:53 pm:        Offshore or Anova, Did CHS really have an affair with Patty Huff??? I've heard this from others and wanted to confirm this.   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 233 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:53 pm:        offshore I don't mean to be cruel, I couldn't imagine having to deal with some of the things you went through. I think I may have to take some tylenol PM just so I don't stay up all night thinking about it. Carl Stevens is a pig, and he may just be reaping what he has sown all these years. Thank you for sharing, I am sure that was not easy for you. Know you are loved Pressing_on   in_shock (in_shock) New member Username: in_shock Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 207.134.86.5 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:03 pm:        Is CHS ass sooooooo sensitive that he has to use something softer than TP, or is this how 'one wipes a royal ass.' sorry, I just had to get that out.   jeannie (jeannie) Advanced Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 983 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:05 pm:        I know this difficult to wrap one's mind around but this gives us a horrifying glimpse into an undiagnosed sick man. And it gives us a horrifying picture of what the etiology of this ministry is. The legacy is based in a man with probably more than one personality disorder. He built a kingdom around his illness, he never ever had to deal with his demons, he fed them. Of course, if one refuses to deal with the demons of mental illness then the demons always win in the end. How incredibly sad.. for him, for us and his poor wives and children.   anon_brief (anon_brief) Intermediate Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 365 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.22.106.155 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:15 pm:        Anovus - I have to agree with you. It is highly unlikely that Carl's toileting practices had anything to do with hygiene. Seriously twisted. Offshore - I just don't have the words. (Message edited by Anon Brief on May 24, 2005)   louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Intermediate Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 339 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:40 pm:        Offshore & Anovus: I was in work today sneaking a read of factnet when I began reading this thread. You folks have shared some of these things in smaller gatherings and I am so glad you are telling them to the factnet audience. It confirms what has been clear for me for many years that Carl Stevens began as a charlatan with the intent to use his gift of gab and God's Word to build a kingdom for himself. Offshore, I can see how much you had to work through and am blessed to see how God has sustained you and restored your faith in Him, inspite, of the dark places you have been. I identify with that deep spiritual work of God. Your sharing of the painful ugly truth has blessed me today. Thanks!!   tanglewood (tanglewood) New member Username: tanglewood Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:12 pm:        That's interesting I was told that Patty told Barbara (Paul's wife), the she had a thing for him, but they didn't actually have sex. Why do you think that was said Brian?   curious2 (curious2) New member Username: curious2 Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.218.7.133 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:18 pm:        When Springfield "blew up" the attack dogs came in from Baltimore. The naive followers in Springfield thought that the issue was adultury. Of course the issue was never adultury. The issue was disloyalty to the crown. Adultury was the opportunity to bring Springfield into line. I would like to know what the Baltimoreites thought of the results of their efforts. There were many who followed Chet Marshall to Westfield. Springfield remained as a fully independent church. Were we among the first churches to break free? C2   jayso (jayso) New member Username: jayso Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.205.150.205 Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:50 pm:        I remember different BIG luxury vehicles in Dean Lewis' driveway in Lenox. I believe he owned a Servicemaster cleaning franchise. Maybe the vehicles were purchased with money from his business and not church funds? In America, we don't begrudge those who work for the things they have! CHS was also an entrepraneur! He worked hard and long hours to build his "church- corporation and Bible School BUSINESS". Why shouldn't he drive a nice car, have a plane, nice house, etc.? CHS was an effective fundraiser and enjoyed his posh lifestyle, using the funds he raised! We who contributed are directly responsible for allowing him to have luxuries! Why should anyone complain now, when we no longer contribute money to him? Even so, Jim Bakker, Swaggart, Hinn, Osteen and Tilton have or HAD much better stuff than CHS, Lewis or any other dressed up "hayseed" from TBS/GG! As far as the stories about CHS and his adultery, they are very troubling indeed. It's a pity these things weren't revealed while it was happening. Things could have been much different in Lenox if the "man of sin" was outed. It is not hard to believe these things happened. It is brain-boggling to me that those who SAW IT could be so brain-washed that they became BRAIN-DEAD and didn't reveal this while it was happening! Could they have been THAT brainwashed? Or maybe there were ulterior motives for their keeping silent for so long. CHS said numerous times, he would NEVER counsel a woman alone without having other staff members around and the door of his office opened! We all knew the self righteous declarations of CHS when it came to being "alone with women", the "appearance of evil", virtue and all the other biblical injunctions regarding how we should act with the opposite sex, unless it be our spouse. How can anyone who sat under CHS' teaching honestly "cover" for that man when he obviously was committing sexual sin? Part of the "brainwashing" was to believe that CHS was morally above reproach. Another part of the brainwashing was to "support Pastor, right or wrong". Seems like the brainwashed needed to decide which part of their brainwashing they should listen to! Can't have it both ways! Although I have sympathy for Offshore and anyone else who WITNESSED what they say they have, I hold them accountable for remaining silent all these years. Isn't it unfair to accuse CHS at this time IF he really has Alzheimers and can't respond to the allegations of his sins back in Lenox? IMO, it is cowardly to bring all this up now, when the accused has no way to defend himself or at least KNOW WHO the accuser is! WHO IS "offshore" and "anovus"? Can CHS put a face to these "names"? Please do not think I am defending TBS/GG. I left and wiped the dust off my feet 25 years ago! I had no respect for CHS or his authoritarian delegation. I hated the fear preaching and cultish mentality that I saw there. Nevertheless, I feel it is a basic right for a man to "face his accuser(s)". If CHS is not capable of responding intelligably, the information regarding the women in CHS' life should NOT have been "revealed" in a public forum. Again, I am not defending anyone; especially GG or CHS. I only feel that in fairness, CHS should not be accused of marital infidelity without being given a chance to defend HIMSELF! Not to mention, if these things are untrue, he could file and possibly WIN a libel suit and become even richer!   louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Intermediate Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 12:10 am:        These things are not just being brought up now. The above stories and many other similar ones have been discussed among x-TBS/GGWO cult members in small groups or in one on one conversations for years. The difference is they are being posted to an audience that reads an internet discussion board about a cult called GGWO. I hope it encourages others to share their stories. It is truth that is difficult to dispute. Carl Stevens began his so-called 'ministry' from a confrontation by deacons in his church accusing him of adultery. TBS/GGWO is not about evangelical Christianity it is about using evangelical Christianity to take advantage of people. Let the truth be known!   jayso (jayso) New member Username: jayso Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.205.150.205 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 1:08 am:        OH.. forgive me for going off topic. This is "The Carl Stevens' Legacy thread. I guess his alleged adultery is part of his legacy. Carry on!   ski (ski) Member Username: ski Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 80.93.102.130 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:45 am:        So, jayso, do you think that those succesful businessmen, were had all rights to squeeze money from people, while having luxuries made with the help of church? Tell that to missionaries. quot_licet, you finally uncovered yourself. I knew you were here. I know you have a story about one of CHS followers visiting university dorm. Would you tell it here?   quot_licet (quot_licet) New member Username: quot_licet Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.84.180.198 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:29 am:        well hello ski. Our Billy was just another clone of his master, CHS. I don't know what is he doing now. What I know about him is a bit personal, so unless I learn that he has something to do with the youth ministry anywhere I would keep this story off-net. He is now joining the new affiliation so let's keep an eye on him.   jayso (jayso) New member Username: jayso Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.205.150.205 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:02 am:        Ski, I think it is terrible that they used church funds for their own luxuries while the missionaries had to fend for themselves and workers on campus lived in poverty. People who donated to TBS did not demand accountability, so that enabled the money to be spent however the pastor wanted. True in almost every "founder" started church where there is ONE MAN at the top.   jack_leonard (jack_leonard) Junior Member Username: jack_leonard Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:53 am:        I am grateful for Offshore and Anova who have opened up and shared some painful memories. Bravo! Thank you for your courage. Offshore, I am struck by your comment, "I feel slimed this morning...." I'm sure many here feel the same way. This is a very difficult thread. We were not made for this kind of wickedness. We cannot afford to sink into the slime ourselves. I have struggled with my own feelings and affections and perceptions about CHS and I have been out for almost 20 years. I wonder what this is like for those much closer to Baltimore. I feel as if the gates of hell have been opened; the evil that was covered for decades is now pouring out in a torrent. We are looking at the face of evil. What we once considered an angel of light has turned out to be the very angel of darkness. I am terrified of the power of evil and humbled by my own vulnerability. I pray for those in the church in Baltimore who still believe. I pray for those who have worked by his side for years, who have gone so far adrift in their compromises. I pray for the missionaries who have so little information, who are far out on the field and find the very ground being pulled out from under them.   minutus (minutus) Advanced Member Username: minutus Post Number: 758 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.156.7.250 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:56 am:        Nobody on the outside would care what you had to say and those on the inside would run your life and reputation through the wringer. There was NO place to tell these things until the internet made group communication over long distances possible. It builds a collective memory which has an effect long after something is written. A reader who is initially skeptical may come back later and make the connections as events unfold in his or her own life or those of loved ones.   2goforward (2goforward) New member Username: 2goforward Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.17.8.203 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:35 am:        The way CHS drew the women in was by being very affectionate and by privately making them feel like they had a little bit of a "special thing" going on with him, even though you knew he did it with everyone. He made you feel really special. For those of us who were insecure and desperate for love and attention, we absorbed the attention like sponges. He had us "hook, line, and sinker". I know it is pathetic. I'm embarrassed that I was so stupid. I don't know how many actual affairs he had, but in Clintonesque fashion, I guess you could say, "It depends on what 'is' is", if you remember that famous quote. As we know, you can do a lot without actually "doing it". Of course, not that that makes it ok, don't misunderstand! Like anova said, you could SEE something going on and NOT see it. There were always excuses and rationalizations in your mind---like 'God is sovereign', 'this is different--an exception', 'God must be allowing this for a special reason', 'I'm sure it's not really what it seems, by sight'. CHS was not subject to the same Godly standards that the general public was held to, because he was special, the Man of God. He had special needs. As was posted by another poster, we were taught NOT to trust our feelings, emotions, or senses. They were the "enemy". We didn't realize that God was trying to use them to reveal the truth to us--to send up the red flags. Eventually, our senses must have become "seared" as a conscience can become seared. I guess we became desensitized to the blatant violations of truth we saw & experienced, and again, no longer SAW them. Yes, I was vulnerable to this influence, yet, on the other hand, no one held a gun to my head. It is also a testimony of my own depravity...the fact that I enjoyed being a part of everything...the thrill of it all. It was intoxicating and addicting when you got a little tidbit (of attention)thrown your way. We lived for them. Yes, it was sick.   bruder5 (bruder5) Intermediate Member Username: bruder5 Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.246.255.20 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:44 am:        At times destruction seeps out of passion almost autonomously. It may be safer in numbers to reveal our own stories and many have chosen to do that. It isn't however a place to tell someone else's story. Authentic story is just that. My story given. When we tell someones else's story we loss something about beauty. When I stop telling my story and begin to tell stories of others I loss a sense of myself. Anger has it's place. When we bring up other's stories it becomes malice. Something about the grace and dignity of FN shrinks for me when I hear stories told of others. I want to be careful that my place in this community is out of a sense of grace and accountability. I never want to assume that FN's role in current GG events gives me a power-base (at least in my mind) that isn't mindful of where I came from.   jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy) Intermediate Member Username: jim_kennedy Post Number: 138 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 172.135.218.219 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:01 am:        We were taught not to speak against a leader period. As Anovus stated this indoctrination was constant. Most who were aware of the problems just left without saying anything. Many, including me, stayed longer than they should have because of the overwhelming feeling that TBS was our calling, that despite his "weaknesses" God was using Junior to lead a revival. And after all the church was growing. Throw in the psychology of a group and it becomes a complex dynamic. Offshore probably wishes she spoke up about it, we all do. I'm haunted by it sometimes. But the reality is no one, and I mean NO ONE would have believed her. I think Jayso answered his own question re anonymous postings. Many fear litigation. Who needs that kind of a hassle? I doubt GGWO could win a 1st Amendment case, but it could still cost $5000 to deal with it and would be stressful. Many post anonymously here and I think they could better respond to that. We never had the opportunity to defend ourselves when Junior was doing his hatchett job on our reputations. The difference is our stories are true, his were lies. Poor old Junior, the aging victim in poor health, nobody loves him...After reading this it is so obvious we were all dealing with a very sick individual. He made us sick. Thank God that's over now. Jim   joyce (joyce) New member Username: joyce Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.175.245.20 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:17 am:        I love what Pastor Leonard wrote. This is very difficult to read but I believe God is giving Offshore and Anova a standing ovation for what they've shared. I, too, applaud.   mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale) Member Username: mrsdrysdale Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.158.32.145 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:39 am:        I agree Joyce. Good post Louise. Sharing one's heart can be hard at first. You don't really understand unless you've been to this ministry, just how you feel when you leave. For me, I didn't really have anyone to share my TBS days with..why I left..etc.how life for me there, etc....until now. We've all been there. I remember laying in bed many a night talking to God saying,"I gotta get out of here...something is wrong here." Then you feel guilty the next day. Remember they day when we all had to write in our bibles that we wouldn't ever leave the ministry? Man, that screwed me up for a long time. By the way, I have a new bible now.   herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness) Advanced Member Username: herroyalhighness Post Number: 616 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.97.250.114 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:41 am:        Bruder - Thank you for putting words to my thoughts.   c_la_verite (c_la_verite) Intermediate Member Username: c_la_verite Post Number: 452 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 212.194.74.20 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:04 am:        Offshore and Anovus, I just read this thread for the first time. I love you guys and can't wait to see you. This must have been hard to talk about. CHS seemed to have an uncanny instinct to know exactly what he could say or do with who and when and where. I guess that is just in the nature of the predator.   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 608 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:00 am:        Anova and Offshore I think both of you are brave to come on and tell your stories. I know how hard it is to go to where they are stored inside and bring them up and out. No wonder you feel slimed by them. After the slime goes away, healing comes and I think you are bringing a lot of that to readers here. thank you both.   dontchugthekoolaid (dontchugthekoolaid) New member Username: dontchugthekoolaid Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 69.251.134.186 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:49 am:        I wonder if Paul and Steve Stevens knew about their Father's behavior with all of these women? If they did how could they support him knowing he was abusing their souls,and bodies and also knowing the church body looked to him as their Pastor. How could they live with their conscience? If people would have found out about it around the time that it happened, they would have been devastated.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 771 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 1:55 pm:        THE INFAMOUS “HAND-TOWELS” STORY continues…… 1986 and 1987 were pretty exciting years. Offshore and I had just been out of the ministry less than three years. I found a one-paragraph mention in the paper (on the “really weird stories” page) about Betsy Dovydenas suing TBS. We were stunned and amazed. Offshore immediately contacted Betsy. We flew up to Boston and met Betsy and Jonas. We spent the entire afternoon talking to her attorneys, telling them everything we knew. A little later, we were interviewed by Suzanne St. Pierre (the late Charles Kurrault’s wife) of Sixty Minutes. (They rushed the story and so were not able to interview us on camera.)I was interviewed by the Boston Globe, New England Monthly, and (a bit later) the Baltimore Sun. We were flown up to testify at Betsy’s trial (while in flight, the judge decided he had heard enough.). We were flown 2,000 miles to take part in an exit-counseling with David Clark in which we were recorded “telling all” on camera so that it could be used in the future for helping with others. Later, when Carl was found guilty and was trying to figure out where to run to, I sent a large collection of information to major news outlets in the cities where it was rumored he might be going. [BJ, one of the cities was St. Pete! Remind me to tell you about my conversation with the St. Petersburg Times.] And we did all of this while still having fears of “divine retribution” in the back of our heads. It is unfortunate that those in the ministry would never hear what we had to say even though it was being told nationally in the media. People in the ministry were deliberately ignoring ANY reports, and they would have refused to believe them even if they had heard (i.e. the hundreds and hundreds of “body members” who ignored the results of the trial and followed Carl all the way to Baltimore!). My wife paid pretty dearly for all of this. She was rejected and snubbed by dear friends that she had known for many, many years. We tried to reconnect with C’est LaVerite, but his pastor had demonized us for our media involvement, making reconnection impossible. [It took 20 years (and FactNet) to reconnect us!] But I digress…BACK TO THE HAND-TOWELS!! Just before Betsy’s trial, her attorney’s flew an expert witness out to talk to us. It was Richard Offshe, a cult expert and Pulitzer prize-winning author and sociology professor from Berkeley. He spent an entire day with us. He asked a lot of questions to prepare for the trial. That night, he took us out to a nice restaurant. Over a couple glasses of wine, the stories came out even more freely. Things we had never spoken of before came out into the light. Now, mind you, I still had never heard of the Hand-Towels! Offshore had never spoken of it to ANYONE. At one point during our meal, I left the table for a couple minutes. When I came back, Richard Offshe was shaking his head in stunned disbelief. He said he had NEVER heard of something like this. It seems that while I was away from the table, Offshore had, for the first time ever, told of the hand-towels. I was stunned. We had been out three years, and Offshore had never mentioned it! I turned to Richard and said, “Please, as an expert in cult activity, explain this to me. My wife and I are fairly intelligent people. How is it possible that we saw all these insane things and went along with them for so many years?!?! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE??!?” He responded my asking, “Did you ever TALK about theses things?” “Well, of course not. That was forbidden. We would have been spreading ‘evil reports.’ We would have been ‘hatching cockatrice eggs.’ We didn’t talk about any of it.” He replied, “That’s it! It’s very simple. With the human mind, if you don’t talk about something, it’s as if it doesn’t exist.” He explained that this was one of the most powerful ways that cults operate. They create a culture of silence. SILENCE. We were all taught to be silent. We were taught and came to believe that to speak the truth or openly question anything would be sin and bring divine retribution. FactNet has invaded the silence. Where hundreds of news reports, TV programs, magazine articles, court decisions, and cult exposes were not able to penetrate the culture of silence within TBS/GG….. now FactNet has!! Thank God for FactNet. Though painful and hard, thank God for the Truth! Anovus (Message edited by anova on May 25, 2005) (Message edited by anova on May 25, 2005)   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.240.3 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:06 pm:        did you mean to use her name?   itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon) New member Username: itstimetomoveon Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:16 pm:        Only you arguendo would ask such a question.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 772 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:33 pm:        While we are debunking Carl Stevens myths... Let's take a minute to debunk the myth that he was a gifted businessmen. He loved to tell stories from the pulpit about what a great salesman he was. How successful he was. For crying out loud, he drove a Cushman's bakery truck in backwoods Maine! THIS is success?? Carl was an "ENTREPENUER"?!?!? Carl was VERY good at getting almost $7 million from Betsey Dovydenas. But as Judge James F. Queenan, Jr. stated in his decision, "This is a case of undue influence exerted upon a church donor which appears to be unsurpassed in our juripsrudence in its variations and in the sums involved. Revealed is an astonishing saga of clerical deceit, avarice, and subjugation on the part of the churches founder, Carl H. Stevens. He has abused the trust of the Claimant as well as the trust of many good and devout members of the church." May 19, 1987 Deceit, avarice, and subjugation, describes Carl's legacy. If one wants to comfort oneself by calling it "entrepeneurship," so be it. Anovus   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:01 pm:        To all reading, We are telling these stories in our own voices. They are more powerful than the TV or newspaper or magazine reports because they are in our own voice. We received a communication from someone that asked if we would ever want our postings here to be read by someone very dear and close to us. I took that statement as meant to shame us. My answer would be, sure, go ahead, print them out and show them to whomever you choose. They are my words and I own them. I will not try to squirm my way out of them. If they help and are edifying, good! If they convict, good. If they show me as a sinner, fine, I'll still own them. We can't out run or hide from our sins, they will find us out. Better that they be owned and covered properly than to try to find another way to deal with them. We have to face it. We weren't in a ministry as we thought. We were duped. We kept silent. We let it to some degree go on. I take responsibility for that. I'm sorry to all those that were recipients. The myth is over.   curious2 (curious2) New member Username: curious2 Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.41.79.170 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:05 pm:        All I see posts concerning the reasoning about the silence of the faithful being about fear, etc. Another aspect of the silence is denial. I think that what was going on with me for a long time was denial, pure and simple. We simply wouldn't see something that was so opposite to what we "knew" to be true. I'm sure there were and are more than a few who were and are confronted with things so blantant that denial isn't an option. For the rest of us denial worked quite nicely. When things begin to dawn on us, the little inconsistencies & small things frequently overlooked, I think that we become more than a bit disoriented. I took some time for the blinders to come off. When the denial went away I was not caught up in the fear thing. I still can't relate to that. I've leaving a bunch of weasels - but I'm afraid they won't like me. Don't get it. The leader is screwing everyone in sight. I guess I need to find a new church home - I hope they won't badmouth me. Don't get it. I can relate to being pissed off. They stole all my money and blew it on a beachfront condo with tacky decor. I'm pissed. I get that. I wasted years of my life following a power driven pervert. I'm pissed. I get that. C2   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 611 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:10 pm:        C2....I getcha real good. How I wish more would.   out_for_good (out_for_good) Junior Member Username: out_for_good Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 168.137.0.16 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:17 pm:        curious2 - email me sometime trav1214x@yahoo.com   bjerwin (bjerwin) Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 247 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 207.90.35.34 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:26 pm:        Offshore and Anova.... love you both and can't wait to see you again. Wish I could fly up this weekend LOL... but will definitely see you August. You both are couragious and loving. I wish I had your balls. (figuratively of course)... You have given so much here this week. Thanks. BJ   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 775 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:02 pm:        Thanks, BJ. Anovus   bob_brinton (bob_brinton) Advanced Member Username: bob_brinton Post Number: 915 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.109.238.67 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:12 pm:        Jeannie, I've been thinking about your mention of mental illness in connection with the hand towels thing at various points during the day. Do you have some take on what form(s) of mental illness CHS might have or that this particular thing might be connected to? I studied mental illnesses for a while, but it was quite some time back. I think he's probably OCD, and maybe a borderline personality? I'm sorry; but if this is truly mental illness, then some of his actions may be beyond his conscious control. It could move things into another whole realm. I'm sure you or Muskey Rose would know more about this than me. Please share your expertise if it's pertinent.   louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Intermediate Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:29 pm:        How about a diagnosis of Super Duper Triple Psychotic Narcissism???   whatsup (whatsup) Junior Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.63.42.109 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:49 pm:        The first post on this thread by Offshore left me almost numb with shock. I was in the ministry at the time she spoke of, and was one of the girls who would work on the switchboard at Schermerhorn. One evening CHS called, very late, and asked who I was. He then told me, in a whispery voice, "I just want to HUG you and SQUEEZE you...would you like that? Would you?" I did not know what to say and did not really say anything. I remember walking back to my dorm that night, pacing the halls, trying to rationalize in my mind what he had said, and how I could have misinterpreted it. I told myself it must have been some kind of joke, or maybe a test, to see what I would say. I was so conflicted, because deep down, I knew what I had heard and the way he had said it, and I knew it was suggestive. But for me to think that way about "Pastor" would threaten the very foundations I had built my security and beliefs on, and I could not handle it. I never spoke of it to anyone, I was too embarrassed to. But as a young girl who trusted the ministry and her pastor as godly, I was deeply troubled by it. Years later I went to CHS for counseling on my troubled marriage. Despite what he taught, I was in his office alone with him with the door shut. I don't remember much of what was said, nothing really helpful...but I do remember that when I left he hugged me and kissed me on the lips. I was also troubled by this but again dismissed it. These incidents are not nearly as shocking as the stories Offshore told, but her stories brought them to the surface of my memory, and helped me to deal with something I had suppressed for years. It was not my misinterpretion...CHS was a pervert and a phony, and he took advantage of so many trusting young believers. It makes me angry and ashamed that I ever was part of that church or trusted anything that he said. Thank you, Offshore, for shining the light on this dark side of CHS   aurora (aurora) Intermediate Member Username: aurora Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.30.49.45 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:56 pm:        I bet Chantel Zeitler (sp?) would have an amazing story to tell if she was ever able to break out of the "chains of silence"- as would all of Carl's secretaries through the years!   jeannie (jeannie) Advanced Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 989 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:00 pm:        He could have several differential diagnoses overlapping, but the one I was referring to in reference to the hand towels was Sadistic Personality Disorder. I don't consider mental illness a pass on accountability issues or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. He could have gotten help instead of feeding his proclivities. Most personality disorders just create havoc and heartache for their loved ones. Few build kingdoms around them, though Hitler comes to mind.... History holds that man accountable AND also men around him...   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 243 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:54 pm:        Chantel Zeitler had a gag order put on her by Pastor, She can't say anything. At the time he did this I remember him saying from the pulpit "I could have ten of you put in jail right now" He is out to protect something. She was not the only one who had one placed on her, There was also a nurse named Judy. I am sure there where even more than that. This was done a little over a year ago, I wonder how long gag orders last.   lee (lee) Advanced Member Username: lee Post Number: 615 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.96.19.40 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:00 pm:        How could he do that? That's ridiculous.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 783 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:15 pm:        Whatsup, I'm sorry you received that phone call. That was a violation of the precious spirit within you. How many hundreds and hundreds of these stories are there out there? Probably all the books in all the world couldn't contain them. Anovus   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 520 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.240.3 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:17 pm:        what's this gag order nonsense? who issued a gag order?   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 784 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:20 pm:        Isn't that something a judge has to issue?   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 521 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.240.3 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:22 pm:        ayup   anon_brief (anon_brief) Intermediate Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 367 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:26 pm:        Sounds more like a confidentiality agreement to me.   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 785 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:26 pm:        Evidently Junior has greater powers than we ever imagined.   jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy) Intermediate Member Username: jim_kennedy Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 172.145.19.91 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:34 pm:        He's the one who needs a gag order. He's full of it. Gag Order: A judge's order that lawyers and witnesses not discuss a trial with outsiders. Jim   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 522 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.240.3 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:40 pm:        Well, if its an agreement, then she signed it for consideration.   anon_brief (anon_brief) Intermediate Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 368 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:44 pm:        Either that or it's just another tall tale told to keep people in line.   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 523 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.240.3 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:48 pm:        I'm alway a bit horrified to read that people believe that CHS has powers that are only held by judges and administrative bodies. CHS is such a power monger. He puts those crazy kids on Capitol Hill to shame.   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:12 pm:        Ok guys, I didn't make myself clear, Michael Marr did the job to protect pastors butt. Judy is one of the nurses who checked in on Pastor. She did not go into detail because a viloation of the order places you in jail, but she did reveal her and some others had the gag orders placed on them. (Message edited by pressing_on on May 25, 2005)   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 524 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.240.3 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:22 pm:        By whom? What judge? You have 1st A rights. They only go away two ways: 1. You agree to give them up. 2. A court tells you to shut up. A court doesn't tell you to shut up unless there's an judicial interest in silence, like a fair trial or hearing. So what trial are we talking about?   jeannie (jeannie) Advanced Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 990 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:25 pm:        Pressing On, I pray for Chantal every day and I remember when Judy arrived back in Baltimore.. kind good people that were so used!   anova (anova) Advanced Member Username: anova Post Number: 788 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.222.226.249 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:27 pm:        Maybe the gag order has something to do with Carl's hand-towels? Anovus   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 247 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:30 pm:        I did not ask her the details of what happened, she just shared the fact that she could not speak about anything concerning pastor nor the drugs he was accused of taking. They were ordered during the Baltimore Sun post on GGWO. I imagine Pastor has some form of protection because of his position in a world wide ministry.   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 248 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 151.196.35.71 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:33 pm:        Jeannie Those two went through alot of hell. They know much that we don't know about, they were in his house for quite some time.   freeatlast (freeatlast) New member Username: freeatlast Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 67.164.163.105 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:23 pm:        Is the Jeannie that posts here the same one that used to answer the phone at the church? Did you all hear that the door offering tonight was for Jeannie - who is leaving????? Is this guilt money, or what?   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 249 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.157.65.116 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:27 pm:        No the Jeannie here is a different Jeannie The jeannie Leaving is Jeannie Moultin They better do something she has been there a long, long, time Welcome to the board free at last   arguendo (arguendo) Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 525 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:30 pm:        "I imagine Pastor has some form of protection because of his position in a world wide ministry." You're kidding right?   pressing_on (pressing_on) Intermediate Member Username: pressing_on Post Number: 250 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 141.157.65.116 Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:39 pm:        No I believe there is some sort of protection.I heard another pastor had a right to sue the church because of being slandered. I am not sure what it is stated as in the law. Why do you think things stopped after the Baltimore Sun . Actually I believe there is more going on by people in a higher authority now, but we will have to wait and see.   jayso (jayso) New member Username: jayso Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.205.150.205 Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 1:55 am:        ANOVA WROTE: "Let's take a minute to debunk the myth that he was a gifted businessmen. He loved to tell stories from the pulpit about what a great salesman he was. How successful he was. For crying out loud, he drove a Cushman's bakery truck in backwoods Maine! THIS is success?? Carl was an "ENTREPENUER"?!?!?" Carl WAS an entreperuer! I don't mean with the bakery truck, but with the "Stevens School of The Bible", "The Bible Speaks", "The Grace Hour" and "Maryland Bible College & Seminary". CHS made millions of dollars for his corporations over the years. I heard about the humble beginnings in Maine and knew first hand about the properties in Lenox, Lee, Maine and Gloucester. We all know about the Florida condo! We all know about his fancy cars, clothes and probably expensive "two-pay". When you consider his humble beginning in Maine, it is obvious that CHS was a darn good businessman in his own right. Apart from religion and morality, I think he did a great job raising millions of dollars and aquiring so much property over the years. Even after bankrupcy, he rebounded and bought a big property in Baltimore! He may be a lousy pastor, but he is a helluva good businessman. I heard it said "Jimmy Carter may be a great Christian, but he was a lousy president". CHS charmed many into supporting his businesses. Stevens is no longer active in GG. It will be interesting to see if TS or anyone left in Baltimore can grow the business or even be able to raise enough funds to keep it going.   ski (ski) Member Username: ski Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 80.93.102.130 Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 3:31 am:        IMHO, almost anybody can make big bucks if the person has the gift to make people to donate or work for nothing.   quot_licet (quot_licet) New member Username: quot_licet Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.84.180.198 Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 4:47 am: