Some people dont deserve to come acro...

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post TTI IS FRAUD..DON'T BE STUPID, YOU WILL LOSE YOUR MONEY...I DID! capn_blythe 24  1  11-25-05  9:29 am   Start New Thread

Author Message   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 2:07 am:        LISTEN YOU IDIOTS WHO ARE BASHING TTI!!! You must be the people who had a hard time bringing people in to say that sort of stuff. I, as a newcomer, have successfully achieved captain position and a good $5000US for my emeralds. No profit you were saying?? I think u should whip out your calculator again and add up those figures. I gained a total profit of $10,200 keep in mind half of that is in AMERICAN $$$. So before you go off trashing TTI why dont you pull ur head out of the ground and see what people around u are doing. Best of all it's LEGAL!!! It's as legal as Mcdonalds. Get a better attitude and maybe just MAYBE you'll be as successful as me. Have a nice day!   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.64.145 Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 5:55 pm:        Hi Lorie- good for you! what do you mean : "half of that is in AMERICAN $$$." How did you get US $??? That is great - I look forward to getting to Captain too!   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 3:08 pm:        Hey Shadow, My sister and I did some research together and we came across a company in the states that would do business with our emeralds. I resorted www.gotrading.net as my plan B because I would rather much prefer cash... especially in american dollars . We joined a month ago and I've already been Captain, my sister is now in the Captain position, and I'm Captain again right after her! If you work with someone as a team you can't go wrong. Anyways, that's my advice for those who are surprisingly unsuccessful with TTI. Take care ya'lls! ~*LoRie*~   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.64.135 Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 3:47 pm:        That is great!! where are you located? I would prefer cash too! I am just now building a team- it was a slow start but I am excited to get going!   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 4:18 pm:        I'm located in Greater Vancouver, B.C. - how about you?? If you have hotmail you are welcome to add me to your list. My email is loramos84@hotmail.com. Peace! ~*LoRie*~   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.100.175.95 Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 9:31 am:        Does everyone believe these "I'm now richer then hell stories" or are the scams getting scammier? Bruce   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.100.175.95 Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 9:31 am:        Does everyone believe these "I'm now richer then hell stories" or are the scams getting scammier? Bruce   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.111.58 Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 1:56 pm:        I know it's true Bruce. People are getting rich in TTI. All you have to do is follow the program exactly the way it is presented and when everyone sell their 2 "Gem packs" the Captain get $7000. It's that easy!! Now that offices are open in England and opening in the U.S. this can continue right across Canada and with the market potential as high as 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of 50 everyone can make at least $7000 and the ones doing it repeatedly can make over $100,000,000. All that's necessary is to show potential distributors it's legal, and allowed to continue with the approval of the government and police as long as TTI sticks to their program. All the distributors need do is just convince potential distributors police won't close them down, which is the assurance we were given (according to your meeting with government officials) then simply overcome their negative resistance by showing the benefits of joining TTI as is required in any legitimate sale. That's what any selling is all about. Isn't It? dave   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 1:58 pm:        Bruce, I am probably the most skeptical person you'd ever meet. Well, one of them anyhow. But I know a good thing when I see one and trust me... this is pretty damn good. ~*LoRie*~   make7000 (make7000) Intermediate Member Username: make7000 Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.150.254.233 Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 7:44 pm:        Whats up with gatordave? Here is someone that tried to get TTI shut down. He called it every bad thing in the book. Now it sounds like he is saying good things about TTI. I don't understand whats up dave??   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 10:02 pm:        I know, it's like make up your mind already! Hey make7000 whereabouts are you located? ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 394 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.111.58 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 6:56 am:        Simple "MAKE 7000." Information I had from government was that pyramids were illegal and would be shut down. Therefore according to my "due diligence" TTI was illegal and according to the information I received from government even product selling through pyramids was considered illegal. It would therefore be closed down and anyone not making captain would lose. The government has now accepted that if done in a certain way this same pyramid structure is legal so there is no way they are going to shut it down so people will not suddenly loose there money. Simple. I will still do what I can to persue illegal pyramids especially the one that caused me to be jailed on false charges. I did not not "threaten to rape my wife." That was a disgusting way to stop me from getting $11,000 back for two women, all the senior had in her savings and the other a single mother. What do you think I should have done when I found out my wife and her lawyer and his wife ripped these "people off?" Kept the money and laughed at them and called them "suckers" as I drove by in a new car. That I can't do! dave By the way I still have my kit if you can tell me where to sell emerals for cash I would be glad to join you.   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 5:44 pm:        Gatordave, you have all the qualifications of a TRUE backstabber. Ya ok, so you had your doubts on TTI but really, you just wanted everyone else to think like you. Why? Cuz you wanted it shut down. Why can't you just admit you were wrong? ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 395 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.190 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 7:04 pm:        LORIE I don't know what your on about. I was told to do my due diligence. I did that, and was told this was illegal by government. No police that I was directed to said it was legal. In fact the Calgary RCMP called for an investigation. All that has happened are the authorities have changed their position. So if its legal what's the problem. As I said before this has helped not hindered TTI. With this settled you should be able to use all this information and "run" with it like a "house on fire." Had TTI been declared illegal then it would have been shut down as it should be if it's illegal. And closing illegal operations in my view is not "back stabbing." Even THE_TRUTH agreed with that. Now, why don't you answer my simple question on illegality and immorality. If you found your husband had taken a senior citizen for $7,500 and a single mother (who had to borrow the money) for $3,500 in an absolutely illegal fraud and threw you the keys to a new car, would you have accepted the new car and laughed at his victims or would you have told him to "give their money back." A simple question on legality and morality, answer it Lorie. dave   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 8:25 pm:        First of all GATORDAVE I would not marry a prick like that. Second of all, I would not only TELL him to give them their money back I'd MAKE him!! Then I would divorce his sorry ass... Anywhom, that's my answer! ~*LoRie*~   make7000 (make7000) Intermediate Member Username: make7000 Post Number: 170 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.150.254.233 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 11:16 pm:        Hey lorie just some advice don't worry about gatordave!! Just leave him be. he will get under your skin very quickly. if you read some of his other post and check out his website you will see that he is nothing but a crazy bitter old man. lts good to see more people coming out with their stories about TTI. we need some new people out here   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 396 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.190 Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 2:28 pm:        Thanks LoRie for your honest, frank and simple answer. But it isn't quite that simple though. This was an otherwise decent person, corrupted as many were, first, persuaded by police, and lawyers that this pyramid "WHW" was up front and legal, then persuaded by these same people to lie to cover-up to save the town. This happens to many ordinary people coerced by police, social workers, and others of authority to lie. Children as well as adults. We are witnessing more and more of this as more and more cases of the “wrongly convicted” from years back are being uncovered. Several of these cases have been on T.V. in the last few weeks alone, and discussed on programs such as “Between the Covers,” “The Passionate Eye,” “Dateline.” etc., and on my website at www.gatoraid.ca where I have directed people to go to help the wrongly convicted. But, in your unequivocal answer that you would make your spouse do the right thing and give the money back perhaps you can understand then how I got into so much trouble doing just that before finding out cops, politicians and people of considerable power were involved and not about to be exposed by some moral grade 10 craftsman. You would find yourself in the same mess as me and the lady in Oakville who tried to get her daughter and her friend their money back. Your directness and “no nonsense” language and apparent morality impress me as someone who would have reacted quite vocally as did Marion S. of Oakville had you been faced with the same situation of having your daughter and her friend “ripped off” and as you demonstrate how you would have reacted in my situation. And because of the way you express yourself you would be an easy target for lies perpetrated against you by others more educated, in positions of power and a more subtle way of expressing themselves. You as such an individual would find yourself in the same legal quagmire. You see people who tells lies in a subtle well educated and soft tone of voice are believed, they are automatically given “credibly” while simple honest brash people who express the truth perhaps more loudly and indignantly and less subtle are discredited as liars, and are easy targets to be set up with lies. Add to that a few irritating idiots like “make 7000" and you find yourself in jail unjustly charged with crimes you never committed. So, the next question is......what would have done had your spouse gone to his lawyer, the police, and the prosecuting attorney all involved in the crime and coverup and between them concocted lies that put you in jail as happened to me and apparently to the lady in Oakville Ontario? dave   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 400 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.190 Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 2:51 pm:        Now, “Make 7000" Why don’t see if you can make arrangements to have an audience with the Wizard of OZ to acquire a brain, a manual on how to use it, some morals, and an ounce of human compassion. You immoral sick idiot. I can best refer you to one of TTI sympathizers, “CONSIDER IT” you seemed to think was at the top of your friendship list, who on Saturday Jan 08, 2005 @ 1:52 pm in response to one of your many vicious ignorant sick mindless attacks espoused...... “Oh, and Make 7000, You're an asshole.” You just don’t learn do you?   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 7:41 pm:        Gatordave if people do business with the wrong person I would have to say that's their OWN fault! It teaches them a lesson and maybe next time they come across another opportunity they wont walk into it so blinded. Call me cruel, but believe it or not, people learn from their own mistakes. Let that be a lesson to all... ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 404 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.190 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 3:47 am:        You miss the point Lorie. How do victims tell who are the wrong people when they are the police, lawyers, who you believe are going to tell you honestly what's legal, bankers you trust and depend upon for advice and honesty, denists, accountants etc. It's called being swindled. It is a "breach of trust" it's against the law. Enron and Worldcom were companies that fooled the world and the world's govenments. Do you blame the people who invested in these seemingly upstanding corporations that manipulated their books and information? You simply cannot always just blame the victims "Monday morning." But the issue is this, I had no say in the matter I'm not the one who got involved or advised my wife to get involved. So as a victim of obvious crime how is it my fault. That's why there exists laws against fraud. your attitude now seems to be it is O.K. to lie cheat, steal and manipulate trusting honest people and it's it's always the victims fault for believing a well planned and well executed lie. But the question was this..." "What would you have done after telling your spouse to return the money, had your spouse gone to his lawyer, the police, and the prosecuting attorney all involved in the crime and coverup and between them concocted lies and you were suddenly put you in jail as happened to me and apparently to the lady in Oakville Ontario?"   chagrined (chagrined) New member Username: chagrined Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.157.72.156 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:18 am:        Dave: You have just about everyone in Ontario involved in this "conspiracy", from local small town newspaper editors, to MP's, to lawyers to OPP and all points in between. The only people absolved of any responsibility in your view of the world, are those actually making the investment decisions. At what point does Gatordave take a look in the mirror and accept even a small amount of responsibility for the events in his life? I think you use this whole crusade against TTI and MLM's as a thinly veiled forum to rationalize the events in your life....and once again duck responsibility.   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 2:19 pm:        GATORDAVE There is nothing I can do. I'm in jail. I'd hire a lawyer to prove my innocence. But what is your point Gatordave? So you were accused of false crime... It wasn't your fault. Your spouse was just being a typical greedy person and you're the one who suffered in the end but it's time to move on. Get over it! Like they say: You win some you lose some -- that's life. I'm NOT saying it's ok for people to "lie, cheat, steal, manipulate" but at the same time people have to be extra cautious with their actions and who they do business with. It doesnt matter whether they're police, dentists, lawyers, doctors - like what are you saying? It's their occupation that makes them seem trustworthy? No one's perfect gatordave and it's too bad you had to go to jail for your spouses doing but I have 2 useful words of advice: MOVE ON!!!! ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.190 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 4:48 pm:        LORIE You still don’t get it do you? What’s my point you ask? This was my whole life. This was my family. I don't swallow it and move on. I fight back against dirty filthy scum that destroy family, friends and community. I repeatedly tell you I could not and cannot find a lawyer who will have anything to do with this pyramid fraud, BECAUSE SO DAMN MANY CORRUPT LAWYERS AND THEIR WIVES, AND COPS RELATIVES WERE INVOLVED IN IT. DO YOU GET IT YET?? Again you put it on the victim, when you say.... “you have to be extra cautious who you do business with.” If you can't trust your lawyer, and police to give you honest advice without having to suspect they are the criminals who are you supposed to trust. Stop blaming the victims for the actions of the crooks. Would you blame a true rape victim for the rape? Now, perhaps you know nothing of the Canadian Pledge. "I am Canadian a free Canadian free to worship God in my own way, free to stand up for what I believe is right and free to oppose what I believe is wrong. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind. Do you have any idea what that means Lorie? “This heritage of freedom I PLEDGE to uphold for myself and all mankind.” These illegal pyramids are wrong, they are evil and they continually destroy families and communities. I have not only the right to oppose what I believe is wrong I have a duty to do what I can to oppose it for myself and all mankind. I take that seriously, and that has nothing to do with “moving on” and allowing criminals in high places to go un opposed..   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:52 pm:        I'm just voicing my opinion gatordave. You keep saying I dont understand what you're saying but I do, I just dont agree. When it comes down to THIS business you gotta have a third eye and ear because there are greedy people out there and you dont wanna get tangled in their web. And dont even compare it to rape... they're 2 totally different situations! As you were saying: Stop blaming the victims for the actions of the crooks. Would you blame a true rape victim for the rape? When you get raped YOU DONT HAVE A CHOICE!!!!! In this business the "victims" DO HAVE A CHOICE!!!!!! If you get screwed over, that's your own fault for jumping into something too fast and getting involved with the WRONG PERSON. What don't you understand out of that?????? ~*LoRie*~   make7000 (make7000) Intermediate Member Username: make7000 Post Number: 173 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.150.254.233 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:59 pm:        Hey lorie and chagrined you are wasting your time with gatordave. He is just a bitter old man. most of us out here don't even bother with him anymore. you will drive yourself crazy if you try and figure him out. he will just bring up the same points over and over and over again.   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 1:00 am:        Hi there! I'm new to this FACTnet, but have monitored it for a good month and a half - just curious LORI: I'm looking to sell my gemstones and would be very interested in doing so for US currency....would you be willing to share a little information about the US company that pays 5000.00 USD for Emeralds?   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.151 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:46 am:        Lorie how thick are you. You still don't get it, do you, if the lawyers interpreting the law, the police who are supposed to enforce the law and accountant etc. etc. etc. are not to be trusted and they are the "wrong people" as you put it, then who the hell are the right people you are supposed to trust and what is society suppose to do with these obvious criminals. Fraudulent misrepresentation is a serious criminal offence because it recognizes people can be innocently, unknowingly, and unwittingly duped and really didn't psychologically have a choice because they were brainwashed. What do you think Factnet is about, promoting companies or exposing "mind control." As for the rape analogy, when someone gains your trust then drugs your drink and rapes you, that's considered as having no choice. With your ridiculous logic you would blame the women for taking the drink because she could have refused. Well maybe she would have if she had any idea she had be tricked. Grow up, see reality, and maybe take a course on psycological mind twisting and a business course on criminology and fraud and stop narrow-mindedly always blaming the victims. My god if a stranger in a city tells the cab driver where they want to go and he deliberately misleads them driving all over the city to fraudulently increase the fare, with your "logic" you would blame the victim for getting into that cab. I'm sorry but your victim blaming makes no sense is inhuman, unkind, and illogical. Trusting honest people are not there simply to see if crooks can lie and manipulate them out their money, than laugh at them for being trusting. Is it any wonder the world is the vicious place it is with attitudes like that. I had hope for you, but you sure sound like McDee and "Make 7000" and the rest of the gang who insist on blaming the victims even if they are your trusting mother, sister, or other family members and friends. That I'm afraid in my book is sick!   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 410 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.151 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:56 am:        Now idiot "Make 7000" All that is necessary is to reiterate what "CONSIDER IT" SAID, you remember one of TTI sympathizers, “CONSIDER IT” you seemed to think was at the top of your friendship list, who on Saturday Jan 08, 2005 @ 1:52 pm in response to one of your many vicious ignorant sick mindless attacks espoused...... “Oh, and Make 7000, You're an asshole.”   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 411 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.151 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:03 am:        TO: CHAGRINED First of all you start out with gross exaggeration..... “just about everyone in Ontario” you say. I have named people I know and can prove were involved in the fraud and subsequent cover-up. The rest of the facts and figures come from simple mathematics provided by the police and news media. Take the amount of money seized, and divide that by $5000 and ones gets an idea of the scope of the thousands of people involved not counting the upper echelon protected in the police investigation. Being duped by well educated people in positions of power giving advice such as lawyers who you trust to tell the truth about the law, and police officers you expect to do the same, and accountants the public rely upon for investment advice, and your local banker you count on for the same advice; being duped by their fraudulent activities is not something for which you blame the victims, in your words “making bad investment decisions.” Honest trusting people make their decisions based upon the advice of people who hold positions of trust. Those who violate the trust of their office are crooks. Don’t blame the victim’s such as senior citizens and the 21-year-old young woman who was fraudulently led to believe that “Women Helping Women” was part of an investment company in Mississauga. Now, why do you think I should be “looking into the mirror and excepting even a small amount of responsibility” I think you should visit the land of Oz along with “Make 7000" as you seem to miss the point that I was diligently working on honest business and had absolutely no knowledge of this fraud or any of the people involved in it. I could not have made any decision either way so how could I possibly be responsible for something I didn’t know existed. But I did take responsibility as soon as I heard about this fraud, but unfortunately before I realized that people in our society who I trusted to be honest.... police, accountants, bankers, elected officials etc., were the ones in it. I took responsibility by immediately trying to get back $11,000 for a senior a citizen and a single mother who from your attitude you seem to believe are there to be preyed upon, and there lifesaving taken then blamed for a bad investment. All perpetrators of this crime you seem to think should be able to keep their money because they were smart enough to fool trusting people. That should be their God-given reward for their fast talking B.S. Those duped by crooks like this certainly should be absolved of all of responsibility. What is insidious about pyramid fraud unfortunately is that many know it’s a fraud but many more are innocent victims who suck in other innocent victims. There’s nothing in my life I feel needs rationalizing. I was a rational person building a legal enterprise. A day spa providing jobs for hairdressers, aestheticians, massage therapist and a Café. An honest business. I would advise you to take a real good look in the mirror and see what a morally bankrupt person you really are with the views you put forward, again from a sniping anonymous position. Again, you could be a corrupt cop, a corrupt politician, a corrupt accountant, a member of the press trying to further “smoke screen” this is or just another ridiculous, mindless anonymous idiot like “Make 7000" thinking it’s all right to dupe honest trusting people then blame the victims. Apparently you don’t read very much either, or simply close you mind to the truth. You seem to imply there was no “conspiracy” none of this happen. Quote Front Page Kincardine news February 26, 2000.... “However, the rumour mill has been working overtime in Kincardine, and last week. Word on the street had it at that seven local prominent women have been charged. “We have received some information on it” says Constable Darryl Campbell of the Kincardine OPP’s illegal Gaming Unit but haven’t laid charges.” Then this.... “Two weeks ago in the Durham region, an ex-politician’s wife and two daughters pleaded guilty to participating in an illegal pyramid scheme. Anita Witty, 59, and daughters Kimberly Richards, 34, and Cheryl Loyst, 40, were given conditional discharges and 12 months probation. They have agreed to donate $85,000 to charity as part of a sentencing agreement. ........ And why were charges not laid in Kincardine? Look at the people involved. Mhairi Walsh “citizen of the year” major organizer received thousands. Husband works for London TV he station. Fiona Wilson R/MAX agent and local lawyer’s wife. They involved my wife. Her lawyer conspired with police and prosecutors to put me in jail on false evidence and lies. MPP candidate Jan Johnstone now on Kincardine School board. Tammy Gailing wife of fired Chief police Burle Gailing (fired for fraud, theft and breach of trust). Agricultural Minister at the time MPP Helen Johns. Then this in the London Free Press. ............. “in church hallways and London area homes, women are being preyed upon by scammers who may cost them their savings, friends and freedom. Nearly 1000 women in southwestern Ontario many from London ST. Thomas, have fallen victim to a ploy massed in secrecy and tainted by greed.” “......... women are dragging mothers, daughters and friends into this and they are going to lose their money said Warren, a certified financial planner.” Now, it must be obvious that mothers don’t drag their daughters and friends into something that they believe is illegal and they know will lose their money on. It was the corrupt police, the corrupt lawyers and, corrupt financial planner’s and it appears judges wives that duped these victims. Not the honest cops, not the honest lawyers, and not the honest financial planners. Not “just about everyone in Ontario was in this conspiracy” not by a long shot you anonymous ridiculous exaggerating “spin doctor.” But it was certainly serious and there certainly were a lot of people involved in this conspiracy to first promote this fraud then conspire to harm me for “digging” deeper and trying to get money returned.. The London Free Press went on to say that .... “The police said to be discreet.” I guess so, since they were involved in it. And then this........... “The scammers tell recruits the theme has the backing of police and lawyers....” The same statement in London as Kincardine miles away. Yes, there was a large scale conspiracy. No, I knew nothing about it. And no I should not "accept even a small amount of responsibly for these events in my life” caused by this fraud any more than I would accept responsibility for being a hostage in a robbery I had nothing to do with. Do what I told that idiot “Make 7000" to do. Read and put something in that obviously empty and therefore ignorant mind of yours. A large victory was gained against pyramid schemes in the State of Utah March 2, 2005. Read it! Educate yourself! This is what "women Helping Women" and these scams are all about, but there are many honest, intelligent caring people out there trying to do something about it. Check it out...... Please see http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/3/prwebxml217181.php The special interests that tried to distort the law in the state of Utah are also at work in all other states, in the United States Congress and in other countries [Canada]. They are utlilizing deceptive promotions and campaign contributions. See http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/DSABill/DSAbill.html And I am certainly not ducking responsibility. I am taking the responsibility of exposing and attempting to stop these corrupt bastards at every level. P.S. you sound a lot like a recycled version of another anonyms poster who billed himself “THE_TRUTH” could it be ??   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:39 pm:        Omg Gatordave just shut up!!! You keep blabbering and no one cares what you have to say. Your mind is warped and I'm SOOOO glad I dont think like you. It's no wonder why you sound miserable -- you probably have no friends so you come on here and let out your emotions. Well guess what DAVE??? NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY!!!!! We're just trying to knock some sense into ur dim-witted skull but clearly it's like talking to a brick wall. So I'm gonna stop wasting my time cuz I dont like talking to morons. CEREBROBOY the thing with the emeralds.... you have to be an AMERICAN RESIDENT. So unless you have a friend you can TRUST in the states then they would basically be doing all the transactions and such. ~*LoRie*~   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:27 pm:        LORIE: I do happen to have friends in the states who would be willing to help me out. What would my next step be? If you like, you could send your response to my email: jimmieg420@hotmail.com Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 7:08 pm:        It's reasons like this Gatordave as to why I'm where i am (successful) and you're where you are (unsuccessful). If you keep acting the way u do u'll always be in that position. Keep up the bad work! ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 413 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.151 Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:29 pm:        LORIE you are simply the female version of "MAKE 7000" and typical of the degenerates that follow pyramid schemes. Enough said in that regard. And remember Factnet was designed for people to tell their stories as to how they were ripped of and hurt by companies not to promote and advertise for company products.   danbel (danbel) Member Username: danbel Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.185.85.77 Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:05 pm:        Well say Dave Those people they don’t care about people get hurt by companies or by bad people only thing they want make money by hurting friend or family, they love that.Because they never talk how to get out those bad apple .   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 7:36 pm:        You wanna compare me to fruit then compare me to a peach! As for you, i wouldnt call either of you (DANBEL AND DAVE) bad apples -- no, I think you guys are a bunch of sour grapes. ~*LoRie*~   make7000 (make7000) Intermediate Member Username: make7000 Post Number: 175 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.150.254.233 Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 9:40 pm:        hahaha   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 414 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.151 Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 12:29 am:        Now idiot "Make 7000" All that is necessary is to reiterate what "CONSIDER IT" SAID, you remember one of TTI sympathizers, “CONSIDER IT” you seemed to think was at the top of your friendship list, who on Saturday Jan 08, 2005 @ 1:52 pm in response to one of your many vicious ignorant sick mindless attacks espoused...... “Oh, and Make 7000, You're an asshole.” That's X 2 http://www.falseprofits.com/default.html (Message edited by gatordave on March 18, 2005)   voice_of_reason (voice_of_reason) Intermediate Member Username: voice_of_reason Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.158.76.60 Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 5:36 pm:        Dave, There is no need to repeat yourself 3 times. I didn't think it would take long for you to start with the anti mlm stuff......after all, you seem to need something to argue about.   make7000 (make7000) Intermediate Member Username: make7000 Post Number: 176 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.150.254.233 Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 5:56 pm:        Good to see you back Voice of reason. Have you seen the other threads gatordave has started? He will never stop as long as he can type. But l don't see that to many people are caring he one thread that he started no one has writin on it but him and myself. Hey Gatordave l would call you names back but whats the point?   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 418 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.111.105 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 12:58 pm:        “MAKE 7000" you already did, that’s why you are getting the obvious returned. I called you an idiot. That is self evident. It was a TTI sympathizer “CONSIDER IT” who branded you an A-Hole. Now, “VOICE” on that point I have no argument with your side . And if there is no argument on that point by any pro TTI then we should feel free, at times, to address “MAKE 7000" in his obvious befitting alternative and move on to other issues where we may also have “common ground.” I didn’t come on here to argue, I came here to tell my personal story of the harm scams can do to families and community and offer facts and studies to back that up and ideas on how to rid our communities of this distructive activity. Our newest poster Lorie ( a mirror image of “MAKE 7000") came “roaring” onto this thread, her first three shouting words..... “LISTEN YOU IDIOTS.” It makes one wonder who is here to tell their stories and disseminate facts and who is looking to insult others and argue.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 419 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.111.105 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 1:54 pm:        For those interested in the significant successes in the war against fraud [click on] the links provided. "Note: PYRAMID SCHEME ALERT PRESIDENT, ROBERT FITZPATRICK, IS AVAILABLE TO PROVIDE FURTHER DETAILS ON THE DEFEAT OF THE "PYRAMID SCHEME" BILL IN UTAH AND ITS RELEVANCE TO A SIMILAR BILL IN THE US CONGRESS AND TO OTHER COUNTRIES TRYING TO REGULATE PYRAMID SCHEMES. CONTACT: Robert L. FitzPatrick, RFitzPatrick@PyramidSchemeAlert.org, 704-334-2047 March 9, 2005: For Immediate Release PYRAMID SCHEME PROMOTERS STOPPED IN UTAH Consumers and those concerned about integrity in the marketplace won an important victory on March 2. The Utah State Senate voted down HB269 a bill that would have legalized "product-based" pyramid schemes in Utah. The victory for consumers is especially significant in that Utah has the highest concentration of MLM companies per capita of any state in the country." http://www.falseprofits.com/default.html   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 421 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.111.105 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 3:33 pm:        “The Related booklet Pyramid Nation by Robert FitzPatrick, has been translated to Chinese and used by government regulators in writing China’s first laws on pyramid schemes. His essay “The Ten Big Lies of Multi-Level Marketing “, has been translated into four languages and posted on numerous website.”............ As a speaker and teacher he has conducted seminars for staff of Federal Trade Commission, State Attorney General’s offices, U.S. Postal Inspector and members of the White Collar Crime Center in Richmond.......” Now, all I did is espouse the common sense facts and the views of this man even before I heard of him, or found his Website and confirmation of what myself and my community suffered and was passed off to the rest of the world. Since my views are the same as this man’s perhaps you would like everyone here to know what nasty names you would like to call him, Lorie or you “Make 7000" or you “VOICE OF (RIDICULOUS) REASON” why don’t you tear his logic apart and discredit him as a liar and let readers really judge who has the credibility here. So, “VOICE” when was the last time any of your “long winded” so-called logical dissertations, and theses that you espoused all over this Website were used by Governments and Federal Trade Commissions, etc., and when was the last time you conducted seminars for staff of Federal Trade Commission, State Attorney General’s offices, U.S. Postal Inspector and members of the White Collar Crime Center in Richmond or perhaps the equivalent, and when were you invited last on ABC, NBC, or CANADA'S CBC to spout your views and “facts??” Is there anything we can refer to that gives you any independent credibility whatsoever for your long winded nonsense that certainly runs counter to the views expressed by this professional?? Anything at all??   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 6:27 pm:        Ok, am I the only one here who is sick of seeing DAVES BoRiNg, PoiNtLeSS, eSSaY-LiKe threads?? Sorry to break it to ya sour grape, but I think you're on the wrong post cuz you keep talkin about PYRAMIDS and if you did any homework whatsoever you'd realize that TTI is not, i repeat, NOT involved with the pyramid schemes. Go torment someone elses company. ~*LoRie*~   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 8:11 pm:        GATORDAVE: You had claimed right from start that TTI was illegal - through your own due diligence you have found that TTI is not illegal. So why the endless negative banter everyday all the time? No offense, but if you applied all of the negative energy you've dedicated to this post, as well as others, you would likely be much further ahead - what's more you'd have some real income to show for it.....if TTI is not an illegal pyramid like you have stated in the past, then with all due respect, what's the problem here?   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 422 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.111.105 Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 10:16 pm:        Actually I didn't state that. Industry Canada apparently stated that according to Bruce so my opinion, as I said before is legally inconsequential. I am simply responding to questions and attacks that were directed at me and keeping the thread up to date on what happening with respect to pyramid based product sales and MLM companies. You don’t have to read it if you rather not. That’s your choice. And who knows, pyramid selling may be the new way to do business in this new millennium and government may legalize all forms of pyramids or simply not enforce the laws at all. In the meantime there is still lots to debate.   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 7:14 am:        Fair enough GATORDAVE!   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 427 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.71.29.167 Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 6:33 pm:        "MORE FACTS" This is the simplest explanation found on the internet of the folly of pyramid selling. The claim is that everyone can make $9600 gr. $5,800 net (recruiting) $1,200 from 2 other people. Now, If everyone in Canada were to put their $1200 into a huge box, that’s 40,000,000 people x $1200 how could everyone then remove 8 x $1200 = $9,600 and split it with the company. Only the first 5,000,000 people “dipping in the box” could remove $9,600, the box would then be empty...... 35,000,000 people would receive no money and be looking for 280 million people with $1200 to make them Captains. It’s an 8 to 1 “suckers game” and that is reprehensible. And the "super "captains"; those who take out $100,000 or more increases the number of losers even more. But interestingly and ironically enough TTI has a far better return then Amway/ Quixter, but that justifies nothing. gatordave still bringing you logic and truth. What is truly horrible and what my mission has been and why I am on this site is to expose the power behind these pyramids that can threaten, harass and even put opponents in jail on trumped up charges and ruin their lives for exposing the truth and the names of people involved.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 446 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.108.206 Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:10 pm:        THIS IS FROM DRU, THREAD ONE, A FEW MINUTES AGO Hi Everyone. Unfortunately, I became involved in TTI in June 2004. As of today, March 2005. I have seen NOTHING, NO RETURN WHAT SO EVER. Does anyone know how we can get our funds back. Will filing a complaint with the BBB of Western Ontario help. What to do ???   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 447 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.108.206 Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:16 pm:        Hi dru Expect to be attacked by a real jerk "MAKE 7000". But pay no attention even among his own group he was identified as an A-hole. I personally don't like to use that term but it came from the pro TTI side. my e-mail is gatoraid@sympatico.ca. I just received another complaintant's story about 1/2 hour ago from toronto.   danbel (danbel) Member Username: danbel Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.185.85.77 Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:54 am:        , if you decide to take the recommendations of “THE TRUTH (SIC)” and consider joining TTI I strongly recommend that you contact Corporal Orsol of the Calgary RCMP @ 403-292-6923. Corporal Orsol they had begun an investigation into Treasure Traders International. After a preliminary investigation, the RCMP contacted Industry Canada and two investigators have been freed up to investigate Treasure Traders International Nationwide. It was also confirmed by our local fraud unit in Waterloo Region Ontario. They turned their findings over to Industry Canada and it was confirmed by them it is being investigated nationwide. I would urge you contact the RCMP and also contact David Bloom of Industry Canada. @ 800-348-5358.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 456 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.139.153 Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 2:27 pm:        For those thinking of joining, or those who are not sure what they have gotten themselves into please consider this for the sake of you family, friends and community. http://www.businessethics.org/EinEJan2001.pdf   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.200.107 Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 6:45 pm:        Danbel - you can't be that stupid! Being "investigated" means nothing but that -"being investigated" That is a good thing... but when all is ok - will you still keep going on.... enough already! you had a bad experience beacuse of your friend and your greed - you jumped in without reading all the rules - get over it. But thank you for all the information - names and phone #'s - these people are working with TTI to ensure all is done right!   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 460 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.71.30.191 Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 4:54 pm:        It would be a nice change if you immoral greedy sniping individuals would not refer to honest trusting victims of your games as stupid. If the police and government would be doing what they are supposed to you would be mouthing off from a jail cell like many are in the U.S. But with so many police and government official in these scamms with you it will be victims who are harassed by police.   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.27.194 Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 7:21 pm:        Dave - you said yourself in past posts - TTi is legal and that you would join - quit flip flopping with the wind! I am not immoral or greedy - I am helping people get ahead in life with a great opportunity. It is those that jump in without reading and understanding everything- why ? .. because they are the greedy ones.. and when they find out they must actually put effort into the business... they cry"scam" Everyone that has complained has proven by their own words that THEY did nothing and expected to get something! they didn't "get a return" - but ask them what have they done in the business... and they shut up! They had to have seen or thought something was good about the business to fork over the money in the 1st place - get real - they thought it was a free ride and did not understand it is a business! GREED- PERIOD! once and for all: IF YOU DO NOT WORK YOUR BUSINESS - IT WILL NOT WORK FOR YOU.PERIOD! If this was a bad business - then no one would be making a 'return" but there are lots doing very well and they have earned every bit of it - by putting in the time and proper effort to be successful. the rest of the lazy ones - do nothing - get nothing - now complain! If you keep doing the same thing you will always get the same results.... Dave - you are not a stupid man and I know you are wanting to save people from bad or corrupt ventures and I am 100% with you on that - but not all opportunites are bad. Please note - and I am repeating myself - all those who have complained - have at some point thought they would make money , jumped in and did NOTHING. If they would have spent $50,000 to open a store ( and that is cheap!) and came to work, opened the store for 1 hour a day or none - they would not make any money there either! These people that have been complaining, if this was their store - they would be blaming everything and everyone for their store not bringing in a "return". Lets face facts - you don't work - you don't get paid. So... why do those of us that work hard and long and have the desire to help others, get called "greedy", "immoral" etc for "working"? I work so hard helping people - the opportunity is great and gives me the opportunity to do so - so it is people that are "bad" not the company or the business... enough bashing those who true work hard and help others... this is a simple business but it is not easy - it requires dedication and time and the patience to deal with the lazy ones that spend their time trying to discourage and pull us down! Once you experience changing someones life and giving them a new hope to get ahead for their family - you just feel sorry for those that waste time bitching and whinning and not wanting to turn things around for themselves... the opportunity is still there -- only their attitude needs to change. Dave - please don't paint everything with the same brush. I know you have had a bad time in the past - but it has nothing to do with TTI and us that are working hard. Happy Easter all!   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 9:24 am:        kudos to you shadow - well stated! (it's nice to see someone post a comment without the usual agressive approach) this business does work, I've seen alot of people be successful with it - with a concerted effort and a positive attitude, I fully intend to do the same.   rorita (rorita) New member Username: rorita Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.222.201.48 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 11:54 am:        Interesting. While doing a Web search for Treasure Traders I stumbled upon a Web site for an auction place in vancouver BC. Within the 400+ lots of items up for auction (next week) by this company I noticed these: 51--Genuine Emerald Jewelry Gemstones Packaged by Global Gem Reserve Bermuda and Treasure Traders International Appraised $2240 Estimate-- $225 - 300.00 52--Genuine Emerald Jewelry Gemstones Packaged by Global Gem Reserve Bermuda and Treasure Traders International Appraised $2180 Estimate--$206 - 275.00 53--Genuine Emerald Jewelry Gemstones Packaged by Global Gem Reserve Bermuda and Treasure Traders International Appraised $1550 Estimate--$150 - 200.00 54--Genuine Emerald Jewelry Gemstones Packaged by Global Gem Reserve Bermuda and Treasure Traders International Appraised $1360 Estimate--$131 - 175.00 http://www.westcoast-estates.com/?auction=115&box_action=text Aren't the estimates a bit low based on the "certified appraisal"? Is anyone else finding it hard to sell their gems at a decent price???   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.203.192 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:32 pm:        Yes - those estimates are not right - any expert in colored gems will assure you the the "Certified appraisal" are good appraisals. seen this 1st hand several times!Any auction is a great place to get bargin price deals - that is why it is an action! I would snap those up at the estimate price in a sec... due to the fact that it is a bargin! the appraisal are the truer value! Remember these are individuals selling - I am not sure where they are getting their estimates - they are way too low and wrong. Someone is going to get a great deal on emeralds!   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.203.192 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:36 pm:        By the way - just a bit of interesting info for you - we have a 21 yr old guy that is doing excellent in TTI that just used $15,000 worth of certified appraised TTI emeralds as collateral (as well as $15,000 cash) on a purchase of a $300,000 condo. just a FYI   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 462 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 1:31 pm:        He wants to hope he is never called upon to liquidate his so called collateral. That's when he will find himself in trouble.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 1:33 pm:        It is very obvious victims are being stuck with these emeralds. And instead of complaining to the authorities and the BBB of a system that in not a viable "business model" as fraudulently claimed but an obvious scam inherently doomed to failure, these victims are instead attempting to salvage a few hundred bucks for gem stones claimed to be worth far more than the wholesale value of $1800 + tax and touted as an excellent future investment. And what about this promise of a self sustaining business giving you “financial freedom”. It is all lies my fellow citizens. Unfortunately our government, media and police are not doing enough to expose this now obvious fraud. But why would they? It is these people “in the know” who are smart enough to get in at the beginning where the money is made not at the last when ordinary citizens are victimized to pay the “upline”. This has been going on for years in the government and police. As I told everyone from the beginning this is exactly the same pyramid system as the infamous “Women Empowering Women” illegal pyramid, only “smoked screened” by a product and slick talking promoter’s “flim flam”. Many of the people involved in that pyramid who escaped just prosecution as result of a massive cover-up by the police, government and the media are in fact promoting this pyramid scheme. And now many have moved on to the other exploding proliferation of other pyramid scams, even the old recycled “airplane scam” actually guarded by armed police at the Airport Convention Centre. Now, it will be interesting to see how many distributors of these “extremely valuable gem stones” will purchase them at these ridiculously low prices. After all if distributors are willing to pay TTI $1,800 for the same thing why shouldn’t they be willing to pay, say $500 or $600 less that’s $1200 to $1300. When you figure out the answer to why the very people who tell you that these emeralds are “worth up to twice their appraised value” but won’t by them at less than wholesale then you will know why this qualifies as a pyramid scam So, “MAKE 7000" how many packs of TTI emeralds are you going to purchase at these low low prices? I would advise everyone to email a copy of this post to the police, Industry Canada, BBB, your Mp, Mpp, and news media and ask “Why is this scam” allowed to operate in Canada?   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.203.192 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 1:44 pm:        DAve - what has happened to you NOW???? You agreed this was legal and now you changed you mind AGAIN!! Nothing has changed. Independed colored gem appraisers - that have NOTHING to do with TTI have appraised our gems (a few of us) at an equal or higher (mostly higher) value. TTI's appraisals are low and conservative. Please stop all this crap and move on with your life... others past experiences have scarred you way too deeply for you to have an open mind. Those you say you are protecting - well you are perhaps hurting them - you are tainting a great opportunity that just may be the best thing for them. You are not being fair at all. I give up on you . you are stuck in the past... too bad.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 2:15 pm:        Read this link, then do the numbers. http://www.businessethics.org/EinEJan2001.pdf If even the last number of admitted TTI distributors is only 65,000, consider this. For each one to become captain it requires over half a million victims (520,000)paying out $1,200. That is so each of the 65,000 Captains make only $5,800 once. If this is a viable business opportunity and they wish to make even $23,0000 the first year it would require 4x520,000 victims = 2,080,000 victims. Now for that 2,080,000 Victims to make $23,000 in one year it would require 2,080,000 x8x4 = 66,560,000 new victims exceeding the entire population of Canada every man woman and child by 50%. How does this so called viable "business model" continue into the next year and the year after that? It is simple math. A very few are cheating the masses with a fraudulent message that this is the "business model for the new millennium". Speak out to your government and the police!!! and pressure the news media.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 465 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 2:41 pm:        I never agreed it was legal. I said the government according to Bruce said it was considering it legal. And they refuse to do anything about it. Now with the conformation of professionals like FitzPatrick and the fact more and more people are finding themselves "stuck" the proof is now immerging. Or in other words you can't fool everyone all the time, and a "house of cards" will eventually collapse. You do not have a viable "business model" you have a fraudulent misleading scam. And that is absolute fair comment. And the faster the people at the top make their only $23,000 in one year we will witness a "haemorrhage" of victims in this country. How many distributors does this so-called viable business reputedly have now?? Bruce, is there anything wrong with the math? we haven't heard anything from you in a long time.   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 2:43 pm:        "rorita" - The prices as shown on your Web Search are average current day wholesale costs for emeralds such as the type "Treasure Traders International" is using in their packages. These are in fact the true value for these emeralds as opposed to the very high "Retail Values for Insurance Replacement" values "T.T.I." dealers would have you believe. As for using them for collateral, I place this story in the same realm of believablity as "unicorns". These types of manufactured stories are very effective as they can never be proven. This imaginary person that the banks scrambled to lend $300,000.00 with nothing more then a package of green stones to his name, will appear real in the eyes of any reader hoping and praying that that is what waits for them by investing in "T.T.I.". Anyone can make the claim but it would never happen in today's financial world, other then of course to make a cute story. Don't believe me? Phone your local banker and tell them that you own a jewellery store with $750,000.00 worth of retail valued jewellery and you would like to use it to secure a loan. The laughter from everyone in ear shot is merely a reflection of the reality that banks do not lend money on the highly subjective retail value of jewellery. They will not even loan money on the actual true cost of inventory. No, banks like boring stuff like terms deposits, land and office real estate. The jewellery trade would love it if this was not the case but it has been that way for many, many years now here in Canada. In time, as more people begin to realize that the stones they are purchasing are more correctly valued at the prices you found on the web, I can only assume then and only then will "T.T.I." disappear into the same oblivion from which it came. Bruce   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.203.192 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 3:10 pm:        Bruce - are you saying that I am lying?? the story is true.100%.Like it or not... And I agree with you... you can't just call a banker....it takes more then that... we all know that. anyway... he is the 2nd person to use the gems at the bank - that I know of. I do not personally know a lot about that person But .. I DO know this guy...1st hand. So please- don't knock things you do not know the facts about... This is not a "claim" - this is factual and a done deal - like it or not! You don't know it all Bruce!   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 466 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 3:17 pm:        Didn't answer my question Bruce. The fact TTI promotes this as a viable business opportunity when it is a pyramid doomed to failure makes this at least fraudulent misrepresentation. Do you think this should go on unupposed by government? Should we simply allow these abvious frauds to proliferate and grow larger in denomination while we simply point a shaming finger and these ripoff artists?   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 467 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 3:24 pm:        Bruce why are you not attacking them on what you can prove rather than a ridiculous argument as to whether someone actually scammed someone to except these emeralds for collateral. Hey it's possible to pull almost any scam. What is impossible is TTI as a viable honest business venture. That you can now prove.   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 94 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:02 pm:        "Dave" - Okay, so it would be wonderful if the government would swoop down and save people from their investment mistakes. But we all know that everyone has the right to do with their money as they please. Do I believe folks are getting burned and that many more yet are lining up to throw their money away just as quickly? Yes! But the last time I checked, the government is not in the business of regulating people's ability to freely spend their hard earned money in any way that they choose. Unless "T.T.I." is deemed to be illegal (and I certainly do not see that on the horizon), then all you and I can do is post our thoughts and hope that we reach one or two potential victims. I believe we have done that successfully, more than a few times already. "Shadow" - Yes, it appeared I was saying that you were lying! I guess we could say we are even as you got me back by reminding me, "So please - don't knock things you do not know the facts about..." and "You don't know it all Bruce"! Actually on the last one, anyone that knows my wife will attest to the fact that she completely agrees with you. But as you yourself say "Shadow", "I do not personally know a lot about that person" and that tells me you know about as much as I do. So until this "brilliant financier" that can turn inexpensive little emerald stones into lucrative $300,000.00 mortgages stands up and shows us all the light, I will regard his story as highly and totally suspect. As a businessman, I long ago learned to base my decisions on paper rather then stories of the imaginary riches of a person that is known to someone because they are related to someone else that just happened to be there when everything happened! Stories like that rightly belong in the dingy smoke filled rooms tucked away in the back part of every little gin joint in Canada! Bruce   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:06 pm:        Dave and Bruce... you are 2 peas in a pod. I love reading what you have to say. Bruce is convinced TTI is a scam and Dave doesnt know what to think anymore! As a resident of VANCOUVER, BC I am quite disappointed that someone out there (who got screwed over by greed) has made the Fleetport obtaining their business license rather difficult. Due to this, the meetings have been on halt for some time now. The reason why they're still pursuing their business license is because the Council was given FALSE INFORMATION regarding the company hence why they're being "investigated" upon. It's people who got suckered in by greed who have to ruin it for the rest of us. They think they're doing us a favour by trying to close TTI but their grave is too deep for them to see light. So if there's anyone who should be tee'd off it should be ME about the people who sign up, get screwed over, and point fingers at the company by calling it illegal and all that BS! It's people like them who put TTI in jeopardy. As you were saying Shadow... it's the lazy people who suffer in the end. Well, I cant agree with you more! Im not just sitting around waiting for the meeting doors to re-open as what most "whiners" would do. My ship is still operating and I'm happy to say I just boarded a full ship! I have not given up hope and I will continue on working at it. This is the attitude that both of you (Dave and Bruce) need! As well as all the others against TTI. ***All I ask for you to do is stop blaming TTI for your faults but focus on your own.*** ~*LoRie*~   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.27.155 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:19 pm:        Thank you Bruce for your polite response - I do apprciate it! I want to clear something up - I do not know personally about the 2nd person I had mentioned had used the gems for collateral - But I do know the 1st one. Bruce - he has signed and done his mortgage deal - it is a fact. I do not disagree with you that this is not a norm thing to do and that all banks will not open their doors to this - but certain instances it can be done and HAS been done. Just know that it has ok.. I do appreciate your comments and thoughts - but not when you attack (dave's word) something you don't know the details -1st hand. I really wish you would see all the good things - but I respect that we all have our points of view and opinions. I just want us to stick to facts - TTI facts and not all the "DAve's past experiences facts(?)" There are so many good things happening for a lot of us - as a business man I wish you were on my team! Business people are what work best with this opportunity - they understand - you work- you get paid! You sit on your A-- and you get nothing! Oh .. I am glad at least your wife and I agree on something!   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.27.155 Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:25 pm:        Lorie- Good for you! TTI is cleaning house right now in several areas to get rid of some of those greedy people that have caused problems. Van and Calgary will come be stronger then ever very soon.Keep on doing what you are doing and keep up the great attitude! you can't lose.   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:54 am:        "Shadow" - Oh you old smooth talker you! I'll pass your thoughts on to my wife as she will be delighted to know I get put in my place by other folks as well as herself. Besides, I like it better when we are bonding as oppossed to my sort of "pointed" comments of late. I ain't been getting enough calcium! As for the other similar style operations that have been shut down in areas like Calgary and Vancouver, I cannot comment because I neither know their operations nor am I interested. Suffice to say that if they were illegal, they should have been shut down. Good riddance! As I have stated in past posts, "Treasure Traders International" remains a legal Canadian business operating under and within the current laws of Canada. Still doesn't make it morally right but isn't that what the debate is all about? As for "lorie", I suppose a reader could say that if even half of what she says is correct, it is still pretty good. This is one of the "T.T.I." cheerleaders that is going to bring down thousands with her when she crashes. I'll bet dollars to donuts that they will give her a bench in Stanley Park, probably somewhere down by the cannon. Lorie this is called debate, with you being on the "rah-rah" side and folks like myself telling people to be very, very careful with an investment in this "get rich quick scheme". But as has been said over and over, "It's their money to do with as they please". For potential "T.T.I." investors however, please remember this one thing as you are preparing to plunk down your hard earned dollars. The so called effort and diligent work that the "Pro T.T.I." side is always stating that you must be prepared to do, means one thing and one thing only. You need to drag in as many people to your down line as you can in order to achieve your financial windfall. Don't matter none if they are young or old, rich or poor, close knit loved ones or simply peripheral family friends and neighbours. The statement "hard work" means nothing more then you out there signing up more investors. And if you are not prepared to sell out family and friends, the fine folks at "Treasure Traders International" will be telling you in no short amount of time that you are failing because you were not prepared to work. Now doesn't that sound like an exciting opportunity for one and all? Bruce   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 469 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.142.96 Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:13 am:        A lot of misinformation and misconceptions all the way around. Forgive me Bruce I’ll be blunt. I usually don’t mix an once of fact with a ton of sugar as we all know. But you sound like an extreme libertarian with the statement “that everyone has the right to do with their money as they please.” and “...the government is not in the business of regulating people’s ability to freely spend their hard earned money any way that they choose.” Well of course that’s incorrect. People don’t have the right to spend their money any way they choose. It is this misconception you and others promote that “brainwash” many people into believing they can do anything they want with their money and it’s not illegal. What penalties are there for spending your money gambling at an illegal bookie joint, or spending your money to bank roll a drug deal? What was the penalty for spending money on the “Women Exploiting Women” pyramid fraud which again used exactly the same doomed recruiting methods as TTI. Many women were convicted both here and the U.S. A women in Durham Region was convicted and fined $85,000 for doing whatever she wanted with her money. The minuet you plunk your money down on an illegal game you violate the law and subject to prosecution by the government. And the government is in the business of regulating with fines and jail terms, how people spend there money whether through corruption or laziness the government chooses not to. In the case of TTI it is obvious someone “got to” the government as again is explained in some detail by Robert FitzPatrick at www.falseprofits.com .He shows how pyramid companies have become so powerful as to dramatically influence and corrupt the government. That’s why I ask on thread one if a lawyer or government official “leaned” on you at the meeting with Industry Canada to “tone” it down with respect to the “structure” of the TTI pyramid. You truly seem to be using this argument over emeralds to seemingly direct fence leaners toward the pyramid as the “money maker” instead of pointing out in detail how the majority will loose money on this scheme. It is, as we know, a guaranteed “money looser” for 7 out of 8 “company distributors" at any point in time right to the predicable collapse. So what frustrates me is this continual line from TTI, police, government, BBB, Industry Canada, and yourself “Make sure you know what you getting into” but none of the above wants to inform potential victims in exact detail what the pitfalls are and what it is exactly they might be getting into. Sort of like telling someone to be careful how they drive and make sure they know what they’re doing instead of warning them in no uncertain terms that the bridge is gone and drawing a detailed map showing them exactly where in the in the next 100 miles is the danger. That is what the web sites like www.false profits.com and crimes-of-persuasion.com do, and what I’m am attempting to do on this site. Now again simple practical arithmetic. In practical terms 1 out of 10 participants in any population would be generous. In Canada that’s 10% of about 40,000,000 = 4,000,000. Taking the last count of 65,000 TTI distributors, if they all become Captain because they were not lazy, and made a mediocre $23,200 in one year..... that’s Captain 4 times each. This requires 65,000 captains receiving 1,200 from (65,000 x 8 recruits x 4 times captain) =2,080,000 contributing downline victims. For those 2,080,000 in the downline to then make their $23,000 it will require (2,080,000 x 8 x 4) recruits with $1200. That is an unbelievable 66,560,000 new recruits with $1200. Now don’t forget to factor in 1 in 10 in any given population that might join and you need a whopping 666,560,000 ....that’s over six hundred and sixty six million recruits (victims) about twice the entire population of the U.S.. Therefore this pyramid collapses when the present 65,000 captains earn a paltry $23,000 on the “board” leaving a trail of at least 2,080,000 victims. Now what about next years profits if this is a viable permanent business. My calculator does not go high enough to record the astronomical figures that would require. It doesn’t work, it is a pack of lies, and fraudulent misrepresentation. What I would like to know is if the current victims and the fence leaners clearly understand that formula and why the TTI scam is a predicable fraud and not a viable “business model”. Let me know and let me know the population of your city or town and I will show you almost actually when the pyramid collapses in your location. That is your clear roadmap to the future marking the spot “where the bridge is out”. Again Bruce is there any inerrant flaw in the math here, in your opinion.   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:53 pm:        Dave - While you threw me off guard with your correct argument that the government DOES have the right to tell individuals how to spend their money (funding illegal activities such as drugs and terrorism), I was attempting to make more of a philosophical argument. I will accept your correction though I believe you understand what I meant by my somewhat sweeping statement. My community has 75,000 people in its population base however; we border next to Edmonton and the population there is just a tad short of 1,000,000. I recognize your calculations and could not argue with them if I wanted because, I completely agree! This type of business operation is based on signing more numbers and the greater the number of required particpants, the more accelerated is the inevitably of the crash. Simple mathmatics Dave, don't you agree? Bruce   voice_of_reason (voice_of_reason) Intermediate Member Username: voice_of_reason Post Number: 174 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.158.90.172 Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 6:47 pm:        Dave, You are a piece of work. MLM has been around more than 40 years. It is a viable business model. Since you seem to have limited your current "argument" that MLM's are unsustainable, based on the opinion of Robert L. Fitzpatrick, please visit and read the following web page: http://www.marketwaveinc.com/articles/zealots.asp I have also posted many times the link to the "saturation theory" that was proven to be false in a US court of law. I can repost that link if you are having difficulty recalling that information. Dave, you should stick to arguments you know something about. Go spread the word about illegal scams, and your sad life story. Please remember however, that MLM's are legal, have been legal for over 40 years, are viable business models, and will be legal long after you are gone. I much preferred some of your older arguments, ones for which you had some first hand knowledge about.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.132 Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:39 pm:        Let me put it to you this way Bruce, you are intelligent enough to recognize this as a scam. You have written that in so many different ways. But we do know that the majority of people do not recognize this scam because of the way it has been “dressed up”. Do the individuals who have the intelligence to see through this and the knowledge to share not have a moral obligation to warn others as you would knowing the bridge is out. In other words “Am I not my brother’s keeper”. Now, what does that mean in pragmatic terms? What about Vancouver where there has already been some problems and the City it appears is attempting to decide whether to grant a licence. Do we, who know and understand and witness the devastating affects of pyramid schemes as so well written about by Robert FitzPatrick not have a moral obligation to offer what information we have in a short email to inform the mayor and counsellors of the scam that we know will ultimately collapse on the citizens of that community? And if not why not? If we are opponents of these scams. I have done just that. I would ask you to do the same. They have a right to be warned. I would also ask that any victims send a short email stating where in Canada you are from and that you have become a victim of the TTI pyramid scam. It only takes a few minutes. Example: I am from Quebec and was recruited into this scam. I have found that the gemstones are not realistically worth what I was lead to believe. The “business model” being offered by TTI is not a business opportunity but in reality is only a deceptive product based collapsible pyramid scheme as clearly defined by Robert FitzPatrick on the website www.falseprofits.com . I would urge you not to allow them to set up a business in your city. Unfortunately I was unaware of this advice before I became involved. Please pass this on to members of your community. vancouver@idga.org Simple!! With enough emails perhaps the news media may do a story and contact Robert FitzPatrick for his professional opinion. FitzPatract is committed to an international effort to combat these scams and has appeared in court as an expert witness and on CBC in the past. He simply needs to be informed and asked for his help. That’s how you get it done. So how about it anti TTI and TTI victims. Will you send an email Bruce, and if not why not? This again is the email address for the mayor and all the councillors vancouver@idga.org   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 474 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.132 Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 2:38 am:        TO: “VOICE” What I find relevant to TTI in that link you provided was the reference to the “Airplane game and a few MLM companies” that the author concedes are illegal. Fact is that TTI system of recruitment is exactly the same as the “Airplain scam” and the “WHW” pyramid scheme that saw people convicted. And that is proven by simply looking at your gameboard. It requires 14 spaces to be filled before the board splits and recruitment begins again with two new pyramids.. Captain receives $1200 from eight “recruits” one of which is himself. He makes 5,800 net from his “downline”. That’s the whole simple game. The rest is in my response to “INFO SEEKER” on the first thread. And repeated in the post below.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 475 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.132 Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 2:46 am:        TO: "INFO SEEKER" You are absolutely right in your premise that you can make money “if you get in early, make a few bucks, and get out ahead.” That is exactly what this is all about and don’t let the master magicians “flim flam” “smoothing talking fraud artists “THE TRUTH” and “VOICE OF REASON” convince you this is a viable year round, year after year legitimate business. Even “MAKE 7000" recognizes it for what it is. May I also say, “INFO SEEKER”, you are the proof of the old adage “You can’t fool all the people all the time.” You have also successfully pointed out “The Emperor has no clothes.” Now, your friend who let you on the board at $300 is not following TTI rules. Obviously he expects to be paid the rest when you make captain. TTI is smart enough to know why you should not do that. They know at some point the whole pyramid collapses. They don’t tell you why you must secure the whole amount, they only tell you to “stick to the rules”. You see when the pyramid collapses it would be very difficult for anyone to sue you for the $900 balance because you can plead this is a gambling game, and gambling debts are not legally recoverable in Ontario. So, setting that aside, The math on the board is this. 8 victims contribute $1200. You are one of the 8. That’s $9,600. Deduct $2,600 for TTI and your $1200 and you net $5,800 per completed pyramid. So, having said that, for you personally; if you wanted to make say $23,000 you would complete 4 pyramids obviously requiring 32 victims. Now remember if your careful and are one of the lucky early ones and complete the first pyramid and make sure you don’t get greedy or talked into multiple boards the most you will lose from that point on when the scheme collapses is one unit of $1200. A person in New Brunswick totally convinced this was a sure thing apparently borrowed some $25,000 to open several boards expecting to “roll over” 20 boards at basically the same time, making 116,000. And why not if your convinced this is viable business, but now she is in deep water. So, lets say you make your very conceivable $23,000. It required 32 downline victims. Who will you choose for your victims? Your brother and sister-in-law, sister, uncles and aunts, cousins, neighbours, the buddies at the club, your dentist, business associates, the staff at Tim Horton’s the people of the church? bearing in mind the pyramid will collapse and it is only the people in your “downline” where your profits come from that loose. Now in order to convince these victims to give you $1200 you will have to get them out to a highly emotionally charged TTI meeting to allow TTI magicians and fraud artists to brainwash and convince them they can also do the same thing. But as you already realize the “pool of fresh recruits” will be running out. When it collapses you will only loose your last $1200 invested, as long as you didn’t take you profits and spread them out on several collapsing boards at the end. And that’s the game . Now, what do you suppose is going on simultaneously in Brantford. The Population of Brantford according to latest statistics is 86,417. Now as I said there are children, families of 3 and 4 people, people in senior homes and institutions and those who will never join something like this etc. These are the pragmatic “nuts and bolts” conveniently omitted at TTI meetings. So, to involve 1 in 10 of the general population would be, I think, high. So, out of a population of 86,000 this leaves 8,600 potential victims and a the few winners. So, begin recruiting 8 - 64 - 512. In only three generations that is already 512 victim’s or potential captains who have paid and received nothing, and in turn looking for victims to become captains. The first 8 were paid by the 64. The 64 paid by the 512. So, you have 72 captains paid only once = 512 victims looking to be captain. That’s the original 72 captains + 512 unpaid victims = 584 people “prowling” the neighbourhood looking for 4,672 new victims to complete another board.. Now, Suppose just these 512 would be captains want to make a reasonable $23,000 on this so called viable business model”. What will it take? Well, for each one to complete 4 pyramids it requires 32 victims. That’s then 32 x 512 = 16,384 victims, more than double the available 1 out of 10 of the population of Brantford. And even if the great magicians and fraud artists “VOICE OF REASON” and “THE TRUTH” waved a magic wand and produced the extra 8,000 victims, there would then be 16,384 contributing victims convinced they too can run a viable business and make at least $23,000 from the “viable business game board”. That would require 524,288 new victims to make them captain 4 times. And with only 1 out 10 of a general population contributing, that is an astronomical 5,242,880 population. And that from only 512 captains in the small town of Brantford tying to earn a measly $23,000 on a fraudulent promise by TTI of a “viable business model”. That’s why it will always collapse, town after town. City after city. So, what do you tell your predictable victims. Look sis you didn’t work hard enough, you were stupid not to figure out what I was getting you into. Hey grandma “all you had to do was find two recruits it’s not my fault”. What do you tell your “tick off” friends at work? “Get over it move on” you were stupid you shouldn’t have listened to me and those TTI guys, you should have read it thoroughly and figured it out. Is that what you want to have to tell people to defend these “masters of deception” as they pack up and spread their virus in the next town. Perhaps “VOICE OF REASON” or the “THE TRUTH” can supply some canned “flim flam” answers to deliver to the friends and family and the other citizens that MUST loose. Once a pyramid scam is started it is doomed to failure. That is inherent in a pyramid even if you attempt or are even successful disguising it as MLM. That’s how this particular pyramid works. The math you see is from TTI’s own claims. It’s their board, it’s their rules and that’s the result of their formulas when they are finally worked out. And you have the nerve to call me “A piece of Work” “VOICE OF REASON”. gatordave   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 2:59 am:        Dave. The reason why it's taking this long for Vancouver to obtain their licensing is because some fag fed the Council false information. Once things get cleared up in the right path (which will happen soon) it'll be back and stronger than ever -- and dont you worry, I'll update you when that day arrives. ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.132 Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 2:43 pm:        LoRie What you write is perhaps quit true. And it is likely that the mayor and council will be duped by this scam. I just finished watching a magician on City T.V. expose casino scams unknown by casino operators until his book was released. It is well known that casinos get ripped off for millions every year by skilful scam artists. And they have the best ”scam busters” money can buy employed around the clock. So, it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that professional scam artists spending eight years perfecting their skills amd posing as MLM could easily dupe, what after all are only ordinary citizens elected to office. Now, my assessment of the mathematics behind your operation is sound and predictable. What is also predicable is that you totally ignore these calculation and fail to address the obvious logic and act like they were never presented. You say “some fag fed the council false information”. That may be true. However, if someone fed the council the truth of the exact way this scam works and the council truly understood, they would be obliged not to allow this scam to operate. I have laid out a simple factual mathematical equation based upon exact given factors presented by TTI. Now, LoRie rather than ignoring the logic above as though it doesn't exist, explain to the readers how an insignificant number of 512 captains out of a population of 2,000,000 wanting to make a mere $23,200 in one year on this TTI “viable pyramid business model gameboard” would accomplish that in Vancouver with a population of just under 2,000,000. How many new recruits with $1200 will that require? The formula is 512 captains x 8 recruits x 4 completed pyramid boards = 16,384 downline victims looking to also become captain. So, it requires 16,384 unpaid victims to pay 512 captains. Now, those want-a-be, promised-to-be (if they worked hard) hopeful “potential” captains require 16,384 x 8 recruits (victims) x 4 completed pyramid boards = 524,288 x 10 (1 out of 10 population) = 5,242,880 general population to “earn” (scam) an income of a mere $23,000 the first year, without even discussing next years earnings. If that isn’t true LoRie, you tell us how many recruits are required for 512 captains to make a mere $23,000 on this gameboard. The other question? How many captains does TTI tell you a population of 2,000,000 will support? We were told everyone that follows the plan and works diligently will become captain. Because it is a “business model” which can be duplicated over and over. Duplication was stressed. That is the only real requirement from TTI. Be honest LoRie, isn’t that what you were told. “Stick to the exact TTI business model and it can be duplicated exactly the same over and over”. That’s what the magic computer generated slide show demonstrates over and over until you’re hopefully “brainwashed.” So, “INFO SEEKER” with this knowledge, simply go to the meeting and see if I am correct or if I'm, as "VOICE" would have you believe, just a "Piece of Work". gatordave   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 480 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.132 Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 8:11 pm:        Read these links http://tinyurl.com/9r77u http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/inside_money/1470616.stm What you will read in this transcript is exactly the same pyramid structure as Treasure Traders International. EXACTLY. With exactly the same predictable mathematical outcome. If you seriously want to understand the pyramid system take time to read this. You will recognize the exact 8 recruits 1 Captain "gameboard" also used by Treasure Traders International. Forget the emeralds, that's all "smoke and mirrors. This is an excerpt from a State Attorney General...... "Initially I think they come in with good intentions and once they participate they lose their perspective, they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers. Read it "VOICE" you will see the Attorney General is also "a real piece of work". (Message edited by admin on April 28, 2005)   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 486 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.33.104 Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 5:07 pm:        TTI appears to have gone somewhat secret. www.treasuretradersinternational.com Check the new format.   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.64.139 Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 6:22 pm:        DAve - GIVE IT A REST!!! TTI develops a great new site and you just HAVE to find a negative- look in the mirror! There is nothing secret about TTI or the new site! an awesome online system is coming soon to help make this a better opportunity - it really is too bad you are missing out and are spending your life so negative! there are great things in store at TTI - I am sure you will hear about them ( and jump all over them!) in the next 30 days! It is only getting better - if you would take serious time and talk to the right people and get you concerns answered properly - you would be pleasantly surprised..... but then again - I am not sure if you would see a positive thing if it hits you square in the face - you are determined to be negative - that is your choice. You are so negative - I am sure if you walked into a dark room - you would develop!! ok ok ...lighten up - that is all I am saying! TTI is a great business - leave us alone!   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 489 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.71.31.163 Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 10:15 pm:        The only obvious thing that hits me square in the face is the fact that for ever person who "succeeds" eight must lose. For one of you to make $120,000 100 other families must lose. You think it too bad a can't "slap you on the back" and see how positive it is for you to enjoy the wealth and put your kids through school. I'm sorry but I am distracted by those at the bottom which are usually the poorest that are finally talked into this at the last. These pyramids never start from the poor up, it is always from the rich down. That's also inherent in these scams. That is the number 1 issue. In fact it's the only issue, and again as the N.Y. Attorney General says.... "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers. That is what is all over your face. You take a real good look in the mirror. You spread evil and discontent. And you want me to lighten up and leave you alone. What I want is for you immoral people to leave my family and the rest of the families in my country alone with your distructive evil pyramid games. dave (Message edited by gatordave on April 02, 2005)   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.203.236 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 10:48 am:        I think you need to check yourself in to a clinic... Dave you need help! I hope you get it and soon .... "These pyramids never start from the poor up, it is always from the rich down." Is total crap... I am not rich and neither are those I work with - we all work hard and honestly together to help each other get ahead - we all win and we help others too... I know this is not a concept you would EVER understand - too bad - really! If you put as much energy into helping people in a positve way as you do spreading rumors and crap - you would be a millionare - ahhh... but not the kind of richness from money - the kind with richness of great people around you that are happy, thankful and helping others ... Do you even get the jist of that?? You are missing out on life .... very sad...good luck Dave - I do wish you well...   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 490 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.70.207.151 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 3:23 pm:        Haven’t you got anything better to attempt to discredit the truth with? You need help from gambler's anonymous and a shrink to unravel an obvious "brainwashed mind". You don't know the meaning of the word honest. You will not discuss or admit for every winner there must be eight losers. And shadow, did you start this pyramid? You word twister. I was at the meeting where your County Director, and this is no secret, bragged about how all these wealthy lawyers and big shots spent eight years and millions perfecting this "business model" before they even began recruiting. In fact he bragged that in the first meeting there were only two recruits. Do you help them start this eight years ago? Now, where in your brilliance do see poor people with millions to employ corrupt lawyers etc., as these companies do, (according to Interpol), having starting this fraudulent pyramid. This nonsense gets more ridiculous the more you post. dave   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 491 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.70.207.151 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 3:46 pm:        Bruce Bruce To quote.......“The forced cruelty of your manipulated statements” WOW! This from a man who admits he’s “sending out messages subliminally”. With my limited education I still find it necessary to “run” to the dictionary to look up words such as cogitation. That’s the whole problem as I see it, nobody tells it straight. Beat around the bush with double meaning statements then attack a person for their interpretation of the “double talk”. Engage in the same tactics as TTI. Laugh and ridicule those victims that don’t have the educated skills of the “great debater”, those who stumble as they are simply trying to tell it like it is. Remember Danbel. TTI is a fraud. It cannot be legal according to the laws on fraud I read. Therefore the problem is in law enforcement. The police and the government will not enforce the laws on fraudulent misrepresentation that already exist in this country. That is the problem. Just review carefully all the arguments of TTI the inaction of the government, the silence of the press, and where it is not openly observed their own involvement in these pyramids, the virtual collaboration by the BBB, then simply read the problems that led to the downfall of Albania. It's all there Bruce. The denial by the companies that they were operating pyramid and Ponzi schemes, The defence of these collapsing companies by the government and business leaders despite the continual warnings by the IMF (World Bank) and even the hostility by the press against the IMF, in their defence of those phoney companies. It’s all there. Now, Bruce when you first came on this forum you stated unequivocally that TTI was an illegal pyramid scam. That was pretty obvious. For 1 winner there must be eight losers. That is unquestionable. Then you had some meetings with government officials. The question is how did they “brainwash”, coerce, threaten, manipulate, or you choose the appropriate word, into a total 180 degree turnaround to the point you now parrot their slogan that TTI is 100% totally (perfectly) legal”. They haven’t apparently dissuaded or “brainwashed” you into believing this is an “acceptable businesses concept” or that it is anything but 8 losers to 1 winner, What did they do to get you to accept that it is legal then act as their mouthpiece spreading the word far and wide “TTI is 100% legal.”And “All the little fish deserve to be eaten because they swim in front of the sharks” and are too stupid to figure it out! I’m sorry Bruce but what am I supposed to interpret from your “subliminal” messages. And so we're supposed to sit by and watch TTI perpetrate this obvious fraud on students drawing them into a losing pyramid. I know what the lawyer, police and politicians who were responsible for misleading my wife into joining the forerunner of this pyramid fraud, did to my wife. They took her into a room, after explaining she had gotten “herself” into an illegal scam. A scam in which everyone was liable to prosecution and conviction, the lawyer and wife who had gotten her into it, the police officer’s relatives, the politicians, the and the municipal employees. “everyone” was subject “in law” to prosecution but that was covered up. So, they had her make a video tape. That was after she told police on March 19, 2003 there was no assault, no threat, no contact, no words exchanged, I do not feel afraid, I do not feel in danger. In the video she looking at the floor, shaking, crying, visibly upset and because she must lie to keep herself and these “sharks” out of legal trouble she says, “he ripped his clothes off and jumped naked on the bed and screamed.” That’s what they did Bruce. Contrary to their very own police reports which surly raises issues of credibility of the police and prosecutor. The investigating cop then went to the new boy friend and had him lie with the assurance he would never be prosecuted. So, he said I came into the kitchen uttering these words.... “I can rape my woman tonight and there is nothing you can do about it.” Now, that too is notwithstanding police reports that say this man lied and I was with police and unlikely I could have made the threat. They accomplished with perjury what you are attempting to accomplish with fancy words and subliminal “clips”. The total destruction of my credibility. Then a huge number of these pyramid sharks having escaped prosecution, hopped on the next pyramid Treasure Traders International. You still maintain it is the victim’s own fault they get “eaten” as you explain in your “honey coated” philosophical seductive analogy “when the little fish just continue to swim in front of them.” The little fish are not swimming in front of them. They are in their homes, businesses, church groups, studying in colleges, working on the job. These “sharks” as you describe them seek the little fishes out by infiltrating the church groups, businesses, clubs, offices, friendships, families etc., tearing and ripping the families, friends and communities apart. What is going to happen Bruce, when these slimy sharks invade the tight knit Chinese ethnic community in Vancouver with their 8 to 1 loser “business opportunity” as the Greek community leaders complained they did in Ottawa “brainwashing” unsophisticated immigrants. But it’s seems O.K. in your “books” to sit back and watch that feeding frenzy as an intricate and necessary part of the “nature” of business. Maybe this is what my wise grade four little old lady school teacher, who retired that year, was subliminally putting in our little heads when she told us the way to remember to spell business is that there is always “sin” in business. This one, TTI, is undeniable evil. And of course Bruce, as you point out, it is an illusion. It is all an illusion. TTI’s business model is an illusion. The government claiming TTI conforms to law, when it is inherently and fraudulently deceptive is an illusion. That everyone who diligently follows “TTI’s simple “duplication methods” and does exactly what their “upline” did will also be endowed with the same success is an illusion. And my dictionary defines illusion as deception, head game, conjuring trick. And again as the Attorney General of N.Y. stated..... "You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers." Do you understand SHADOW that for every winner there must infact be 8 losers. That is mathematical fact? dave   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 6:05 pm:        "Dave" - You are correct in your assertion that my original posts indicated "T.T.I.Co." was an illegal pyramid. After understanding more of the operation of this organization, I started referring to it as a "legal" pyramid. After attending a presentation meeting and many, many discussions with people that have careers evolved by knowing the law of the land, I now accept it as the model it is, "A LEGAL BUSINESS OPERATING WITHIN THE BORDERS OF CANADA AND OBSERVING ALL CURRENT CANADIAN LAWS"! What else is there to say Dave? If you are not happy with that reality, I encourage you to continue lobbying whomever you choose, to have the laws of the land changed. With my very limited access to close friends within the "Alberta Solicitor General's Department", I have long understood that the very laws implemented to protect society from those that would bring harm to ourselves and our families, are the same laws that "the bad guys" can use to shield bad and corrupt people from prosecution. That is an inherent flaw in our Canadian legal system and do you know why it is there Dave? It is there because we presume all citizens to be innocent until proven guilty. And in order to command that very high moral ground, we already accept that some bad people will slip under the radar in our efforts to be sure everyone is treated equally in the eyes of the law. We err on the side of fair and equitable justice knowing going in that a rare number of citizens will twist it for their own benefit! It sure as hell is not perfect but then neither is life. The little fish analogy bothered you Dave and I will apologize for that. I have never knowingly attempted to intentionally irate you however; I certainly stand by the basis of my comment. What are you proposing to do Dave? Enact national legislation protecting private citizens from investing their own money freely on a completely legal business? Because most people are going to get burned, do you propose we make new laws based on nothing more than the premise that you and I know better then them, where they should invest their money? Keep up the fight Dave because I know you are committed. But if you seriously think that legislation is required for regulating people's investment in "Treaure Traders International Company", then I have just one more question. If you and I cannot convince folks to run from this model, how the hell do you think you are going to convince a court of law? Bull horns at twenty paces? I am sorry for all of the people near the bottom of this operation that will unquestionably be out all of their money. But feeling sorry is where I draw the line. I cannot be my brother or sister's keeper to the extent that I am prepared to take away their freedom of decision for no other reason then I THINK I know better then them what is best for them! I'll just stick to the sound arguments that I have at my disposal and I will be happy to take my wins one person at a time if I have to. In the meantime, working with legislators may get us somewhere but as always with government, I ain't holdin' my breath! Oh and on a final note, I for one do NOT buy into your theory that every law officer and government legislator is "on the take"! There are bad people in every walk of life but your continued character assasinations just don't cut it in a great country like Canada. If you have been burned by dishonourable people, there are great legal avenues laid out for you to seek redress. I can only surmise your own impatience may have done you in with past efforts and I honestly could not say I might not have acted similarly where I in your shoes. But I will never buy into the rhetoric that the destructive forces of evil are under the direct control and supervision of the very people we trust to uphold the laws of our land. I first learned about simple sociological laws when I was in kindergarten and I have observed the beauty of our functioning legal system for fifty years beyond that! Unlike yourself, I respect the authority of our land and I am thankful almost daily that it is there. If you think the courts are part of the conspiracy of society's ills, I shudder to think how you REALLY view "freedom of expression"! Bruce   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 6:34 pm:        HAHAHAHA SHADOW!!!! "You are so negative - I am sure if you walked into a dark room - you would develop!!" that is just too funny, I like that one. You know, let Gatordave hate on this all he wants along with Bruce -- I think they both got to the point where it's just too late for them to admit they're wrong. ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 492 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.70.207.151 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 8:42 pm:        Lorie For every winner there are eight losers. It doesn’t change. When you know every time you make captain 8 must lose I have to wonder how do you sleep at night? There is no right there. That’s wrong. Attorney General N.Y. State....... is absolutely right "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.” dave   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 1:19 am:        By your off handed statement "Lorie", I must assume that the point you are attempting to make is that it is only you that is on the correct and moral side of this debate while the rest of us on the other side simply don't get the "big picture". Topical, fast paced debate such as what you are bringing to this forum, was something we studied years ago in primary debating and by the time we were cutting our teeth on national debate 101, you wouldn't have made it to water girl! Keep throwing the slings and arrows as I sense it is all you've got at your disposal. I am just thankful that many of the other posters on your side, have long walked away from such meaningless atttacks amd have stuck to the issues. If your side is better, show us all but without your awkward pretense of superiority. You may learn to like it! However, as you read "hate" into my writings, it is probably already too late for you as it would appear that debating is not your only weakness. You seem to have a problem with reading as well. I guess we can all clearly see why you so love this model because it doesn't require a ton of study. Repetition is so easy to handle don't you agree? Bruce   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 2:33 am:        Dave you say there are 8 "losers" what the hell are you talking about? Are you slow?? Those 8 "losers" will eventually climb to the top if they did their homework. Of course, if they just sit around they wont go anywhere and sure, THOSE people you can call losers -- I won't argue that one. Obviously the Captains started off in that so called "loser" position but hey, you gotta start somewhere... right?? As for you Bruce, a little fact about me: I'm young and ambitious and I know a good opportunity when I see one. It's too bad you view my postings as "attacks"... not everyone is out to get you. I think you need to lighten up a bit -- the grass will be greener for you. ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.252 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:15 pm:        Well LoRie you are either mentally deficient when it comes to simple arithmetic, or totally “Brainwashed” by this cult like company. What you are doing is not sustainable and only 1 in 8 will ever become captain the rest will have no opportunity. Only an idiot would persist in the argument you attempt to maintain, after what has been exposed by both pro and con sides and the double agent in the middle. Again as the Attorney General of N.Y. who has not been influenced, “brainwashed, intimidated, or somehow “bought off” and actually pursues these illegal fraudulent misleading pyramid schemes that suck in unsuspecting victims by the thousands said..... "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.” Tell me LoRie has TTI opened an office in N.Y. State or any other state in the U.S. as they promised months ago. I mean they went all the way to England why haven’t they opened in the U.S. or have they? Explain to the readers LoRie. Now here is grade two arithmetic for you LoRie.... lets see how you do. For you to become captain it took eight downline victims. It will take 64 for those 8 to become captain. Are you with us so far. It will require 512 for those 64 to become captain and 4096 for this 512 to become captain. Can your mind comprehend figures this high and grade two concepts this complicated LoRie? Just get out your calculator and punch in 8 x 8 then repeatedly hit the = key. Magically you will find the same numbers. So, it now requires 32,768 for those 4096 to become captain. It will then take 262,144 for those 32,768 to become captain and 2,097,152 for those 262,144 to become captain and 16,777,216 for those 2,097,152 to become captain, and 124,217,728 for 16,777,216 to become captain. How, LoRie will 124,217,728 who paid out $1200 each then become captain? (and that encompasses a population with children etc., that can’t become captain, if you can comprehend mathematically what that factor means to the equation). It’ really only grade two arithmetic. Ask the children if they understand it. You’d be surprised. After all it took a little kid to tell the stupid idiotic “brainwashed” adults the obvious... “Daddy the Emperor has no clothes.” God, LoRie what do you think the geniuses who wrote these stories of wisdom that have endured throughout the centuries were tying to tell mankind. Come to think of it this pyramid logic should be taught in school. But not likely when the director of the Board of education, MPP’s principals and so many teachers are involved in the pyramid frauds. So, what did you say the population was were you live which will insure every dowline victim "has an equal “opportunity” to become captain? Or in your words... "will eventually climb to the top if they do their homework." Tha's a sick joke LoRie!! How does it feel to be a female who can't do simple arithmetic and consequently has been duped, "brainwashed" and controlled by a bunch of sleezy men who have you out "screwing" friend, family, and community to give these corporate pimps who wear fancy cloths and drive Hummers $2,600 every time you "turn a trick." Metaphorically you have become nothing more than a “brainwashed", mindless, corporate-pimp controlled common “bimbo” prostitute. Go look at yourself in a mirror and think about all the people your're going to be screwing and passing on this pyramid virus. dave   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 1:54 pm:        "Metaphorically you have become nothing more than a “brainwashed", mindless, corporate-pimp controlled common “bimbo” prostitute. Go look at yourself in a mirror and think about all the people your're going to be screwing and passing on this pyramid virus." PERHAPS YOU SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO LORIE, BECAUSE YOUR LAST POST WAS NOTHING SHORT OF RUDE AND INAPPROPRIATE EVEN IN A METAPHORICAL CONTEXT- as for your constant usage of: "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.” YOU"VE POSTED THIS SAME QUOTE 5 TIMES IN THE LAST 5 DAYS!!!!! GIVE IT UP - your points are of some interest, when you're not repeating yourself like a broken jukebox. Besides even Bruce Audley, who always SHOWS RESPECT to those he is DEBATING WITH NOT ARGUING, seems to be finding it hard to REASON WITH YOU.   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 1:55 pm:        I'm sure you'll have plenty to say about that GATORDAVE! HAVE A NICE DAY!   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 2:17 pm:        "Lorie" - Young and ambitious is fine with me. My young son has just relocated back to Vancouver after a two year stint in Dundee, Scotland. His passion and ambition have vaulted him into a successful business world that I could have only dreamed about not that many years ago. But being young and ambitious cannot be used as a convenient shield for attacking people that don't mirror your every thought. Actually, it has nothing to do with age because the same social rule works if you are old (like me). You have decided that "Treasure Traders International Company" is for you and that sits well with me. But I personally checked out this opportunity and saw the inherent flaws as being so significant that I had to keep looking around the room to see if anyone else was getting it. This business model is very badly flawed and it surprises me that new investors cannot see the same reality. But the criticism stops there. After my presentation, I had coffee with some wonderful people that I suspected were going to sign within the next few days. I must come back to the same observation I have made in past and that is they were all normal folks just like you and me. Everyone was just trying to better their financial lives. No one at my meeting asked my opinion and because of that, I settled for the comfort of idol chat before I left. In addition, several of your "Pro T.T.I.Co." people have contacted me directly off this forum and each and every one of them has added something to my life, my circle of influence so to speak! We have agreed that we disagree but as near as I can tell through my somewhat limited legal experience, that ain't illegal! Write on this forum all you need to, Lorie. It is provided by "The Ghost in the Machine" as an incredible vehicle for social discussion. I support it in writing and I support it financially. It works best when it is dealing with differences exactly like those we have here. But, temper your young anger with sensitivity. It will help you in the long run. Let those people reading this forum, see you as a sensible, young, passionate business woman that believes in this model. Anyone sitting on the fence will be more easily swayed to your side by reading the postings of an intelligent and disciplined moderate rather then someone that seems to fire from the hip and ask questions later. I have slipped several times myself here so lest you view this posting as a one sided diatribe, it is not meant that way. I suppose that just means that not one of us is perfect. Darn! And before you ask why Dave doesn't have to follow the same rules well, there I don't have an answer. Dave is Dave and his anger is part of his style. He makes some great points but I doubt he is ever going to wrap them in sugar. I am not intending to preach (my son would be rolling his eyes by now) but, sometimes things get quickly out of control here. Try not to rise to personal attacks. Frustrating yes but, you will always win more bees with honey (whatever the hell that means). I cannot support your arguments but I can sure support your right to make them. I am not the enemy here and to be honest, I am not sure there is an enemy. I certainly know from where I sit In Sherwood Park, Alberta, you are not my enemy! The only difference between Lorie and Bruce is no greater than we simply don't agree on "Treasure Traders International Company". Bruce   thomas_mack (thomas_mack) Junior Member Username: thomas_mack Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 137.82.13.173 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 6:15 pm:        I wish to mention that the Vancouver Fleet Port has yet to reopen. I think that all pro-tti people should work on getting Vancouver Fleet Port reopened. Burnaby City Hall is not giving them a license yet, because they question the legitimacy of TTI.   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 497 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.252 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 6:49 pm:        To all you ANTI TTI I suggest all you anti TTI people, victims of this fraud, business people who don't want this crap in our society, those morally minded who do not want to see our college student distracted , cheated and have to face the ire of other students on campus who will certainly be victims and Bruce, email the mayor and councilors of Vancouver and explain this to them requesting they take a good hard look at what they are going to unleash on the citizens of Vancouver particularly the students and ethnic communities. It so easy, just do it for yourself and your fellow Canadians. mayorandcouncil@vancover.ca Dave (Message edited by gatordave on April 04, 2005)   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 499 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.109.252 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 7:16 pm:        Today is my birthday. My son is an his way to take me to dinner. I just checked my email this arrived at 6:23pm I hope it will accomplish something. ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis, Tim To: 'gatoraid@sympatico.ca' Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 6:23 PM Subject: RE: pyramid scam 2 Gatoraid, Thank you for bring this very important issue to my attention. Tim Louis Vancouver City Councillor 604-873-7248 -----Original Message----- From: gatoraid@sympatico.ca [mailto:gatoraid@sympatico.ca] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 2:26 AM To: Louis, Tim Subject: Re: pyramid scam 2 I don't know if you know the gravity of situations these pyramid frauds are causing. Personally I had no idea these things even existed in the billions of dollars and the thousands of participants until my wife was seduced into joining the "Women Empowering Women" pyramid.. Unless we understand the full ramifications of what these frauds our doing to the nation not only will these frauds continue to wreak havoc on family, friends and community they also cost the nation dearly in economic terms. In my two year investigation of these frauds I have met many people who were forced to declare bankruptcy. One of the sadist was a 22 year old young woman from Guelph Ontario seduced at a meeting having be told by the woman running the meeting that she worked for a financial planning co. She borrowed $5000, the pyramid collapsed and the young woman was forced to declare personal bankruptcy which costs every taxpayer. What a way to begin your adult life. The only reason these frauds prevails is that victim's won't speak out on mass and therefore the federal government Industry Canada sits and does virtually nothing but watch TTI rip through one city after another one town after another. Imagine the hard feelings in a family or a close subdivision divided by the ones who received the money and the seven losers. I have witnessed that. What happens here in simple common sense terms is this. The pyramid starts in a new city. All that happens is $1,200 is moved from groups of eight people to one in the group. These are friends, neighbours, church groups etc. They are the ones doing all the work of collecting the money and giving it to one of their own. Each time that occurs Treasure Traders International receives $2,600. When the available population has all been tapped out TTI moves out leaving 1 out of 8 with the "profit" from the seven losers. There is no business opportunity here. Money has simply been inequitably redistributed in the community and TTI leaves with 30.95 % of the redistributed resources leaving behind bitter feelings. (TTI's $2,600 divided by $8,400 Captain's gross, x 100% = 30.95%. In a city of 2,000,000 if 1 in 10 participate, that's 200,000 divided by 8 = 25,000 x $2,600 = $65,000,000. If 1 in 20 = 32,500,000. Even 1 in 100 (that's 1 in 1000 total population) = $5,200,000 for doing basically nothing but taking 30.95% from the citizens of Vancouver and leaving. What I am asking is that you add you voice to the growing number of citizens who want this company and similar pyramid frauds shut down as was recommended by the World Bank after the collapse of the Country of Albania. There are organizations that can back you up. I am this very moment I am in contact with university professors who have studied pyramids expensively and their effects on the community. What I am requesting is that politicians understand that this is fraudulent misrepresentation at best and we must all speak out and stop it. It is that simple. Please check this link Ontario Securities Commission re: Alan Kippax. http://www.osc.gov.on.ca/Enforcement/Proceedings/2003/rea_20031219_kippaxallan.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis, Tim To: 'gatoraid@sympatico.ca' Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:24 PM Subject: RE: pyramid scam Gatoraid, What are you asking me to do? Tim Louis Vancouver City Councillor 604-873-7248 -----Original Message----- From: Bengston, Kathy Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 11:03 AM To: 'gatoraid@sympatico.ca' Subject: RE: pyramid scam Thank you for your email which has been circulated for information to the Mayor, Councillors, and the City Manager. -----Original Message----- From: gatoraid@sympatico.ca [mailto:gatoraid@sympatico.ca] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:46 PM To: mayorandcouncil@vancouver.ca Subject: pyramid scam To the Mayor and Council of Vancouver Re: attempts by Treasure Traders International to start a pyramid scheme in Vancouver. Please I urge you to Read these links for the sake of your citizens.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/inside_money/1470616.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/audio_video/programmes/inside_money/transcripts/pyramid.txt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/inside_money/1470616.stm What you will read in the transcript is exactly the same pyramid structure as Treasure Traders International. EXACTLY. With exactly the same predictable mathematical outcome. If you seriously want to understand the pyramid system please take time to read this. You will recognize the exact 8 recruits 1 Captain "gameboard" also used by Treasure Traders International. Forget the emeralds, that's all "smoke and mirrors. This is an excerpt from the N.Y. State Attorney General...... "Initially I think they come in with good intentions and once they participate they lose their perspective, they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they're acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there's eight losers." This is the link mayorandcouncil@vancover.ca   comfortable (comfortable) New member Username: comfortable Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 8:56 pm:        Hey everyone.... I am a "newcomer" in these daily posts - as u would assume. However, just look at me as that wealthy fly on the wall who is finally having her say about this business. I have been up to date reading each post. I find the arugment between GATORDAVE and LORIE full of drama. Its Gatordave vs. Lorie. Gatordave likes to intimidate her among other pro-tti people with his intellectual thoughts which probably takes him an hour or two to come up with.... while Lorie strikes back full throttle defending her title as a successful TTI employee. Its interesting to say the least..... There are many different sides and feelings to this entire business. In this world there are many different businesses where there is always that someone who has to say their 2cents about it. In this case, its Gatordave. Instead of walking away from something he doesnt particularly understand, he chooses to ramble on repeativly to us (pro-tti people) to the point where I am convinced he has no life. U spend all ur hours of ur day trying to come up with ur "intellectual essays" and even still, when I read them (this weathly fly).... I just dont understand ur point. Thats why I say its a verbal battle between you and Lorie, when the bell has rung I would hold Lories hand up in the air and shout out loud and clear WINNER!!!!! Its not that I havent listened to ur points dave, I have. But not only have u been back and forth with ur feelings for this company, u have gotten to the point where each time u write, u tie urself up in knots. Digging urself deeper and deeper into a hole. TTI is not a pyramid scheme. Stop making false assumptions and then go to mayor of Vancouver and cry like a little baby - ruining it for others who are happy with what they are doing. Instead, why dont u admit u are wrong... suck it up like a real man & move on. Put ur white flag up. I dont know why u even bother posting every day..... are u not happy with ur life?? Are u having problems getting laid?? Bring ur wife some chocolates and flowers.... u'd be surprised to see what reaction u'd get. Eventually, u will see that there is more to life then TTI. Take a walk in the park, hold hands with ur wife... and live life like the normal being. Leave us TTI people alone. As long as we're happy, why do u care?? We arent bothering u. If we blow dust in ur face from our corvette.... u can blame the dust on the road. People have to figure out their own things in life, dont figure it out for them. And everyone is NOT entitled to ur opinion so please..... end it. U have no reason to write anymore other than to say goodbye it was quite the battle. Ok??? Lets move on, and I will fly away too. Enjoy ur life.} ps. i'd rather make a bad decision.... then not make one at all.   shadow (shadow) New member Username: shadow Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.201.51 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 11:00 pm:        Dave - please smarten up... people talk to you only to shut you up... you are a laughing stock already at the Vancouver City councillor.... And re Kippax - at that crap was in the 80's - the guy was in his 20's - I am sure we all have done things when we were young! oh... except you Dave .. you are perfect!Give us all a break! welcome to "comfortable" nice to have you ... word of advise - Dave will continue to repeat himself with all his hate ... don't waste your time! Good luck with your 7000's!   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 11:19 pm:        "comfortable" - Sorry but this is too good to resist. As you are an investor in "T.T.I.Co.", that must be the bad decision you claim to have made and, you say that is better then no decision?? From where I sit and in this case, the no decision would have definitely been the superior. Besides if you are already so rich, why are you bothering with such a small money making scheme? Jimmy Pattison didn't make his millions by dragging innocent small investors into his downline. But then I guess to use your analogy, that means that he made no decision in his life. Interesting! You missed the most important part about Dave's tirades. He doesn't care where you throw your money. He is looking out for the innocent people that your organization is attempting to convince to sign on to a business scheme that uses a complicated game board and loose emerald pack scenario, to cover up a classic "sign up before everyone else and ride the waves to riches on your downline" scheme that "T.T.I.Co." actually has become. In a strange twist of roles here, it is really him that is looking out for the investor's best interests here and thank GOD he is. No one at "T.T.I.Co." is! Our goal here is to bring the facts out in the open which is something we encourage your side to do as well. Problem is, when all the numbers are added up, the scales never seem to tip towards "T.T.I.Co." do they? This so called business opportunity has a definitive life span and an investor had better jump in quickly, take his gains and exit the loop. Because any way you look at it, the end will be "down and dirty" and it should be as no surprise, the only people that will be hurt will be those unfortunate investors that signed on at the bottom. I can appreciate that all of the investors before them will immediately offer up their profits when that happens. It will be their way of showing that they were attempting to at least right some of the wrongs and make an effort to see that not everyone on the bottom is financially crippled by this scheme. That will be a truly beautiful day! Probably the same day that unicorns start to inhabit the earth. Bruce   gatordave (gatordave) Intermediate Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 500 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.137.218 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 12:58 am:        I'm do not write here to particularly argue with anyone. I make my points I get attacked I defend myself and counter attack and hope more and more people see the truth. In reality I am in the majority. There are far more victims of these frauds then the wealthy, obviously. That was true in the “Women Empowering Women” pyramid and the same truth is inherent and self evident in TTI. The problem is the victims won’t speak out. If all your victims marched on you at the same time you wouldn’t know what to do. The problem is the decent people are not aggressive. They send me emails but won’t do battle with you in this forum, but they are listening and quietly warning a few others. What good that will do? Who knows. Again denials this is a pyramid, notwithstanding Kippax’ bold admission on National T.V. (CBC) that it is. Don’t you people listen to your own founder. And still nobody debates for every winner there must be 8 losers. It’s been a long time since TTI bragged you had 65,000 distributors. If the average makes captain in an average of 30 days, which was stated at all the meetings I attended TTI must have done that at least twice since then; it was over 3 months ago. TTI should have 65,000 x 8 = 520,000 new distributors who recruited 8 = 4,160,000 unpaid downline now looking for 33,280,000 victims to become captain. Now, if TTI is nowhere near that figure, then you are full of crap, the word used by and understood by TTI. That’s called a projection used in legitimate business. Again these are your stated figures, and TTI’s claims of the progress of the average recruit. Anyone with the official count of TTI distributors in Canada or bold enough to give a estimate of TTI distributors in Canada at this point in time? Anyone want to debate “for ever winner there are 8 losers” or is the A.G. right and it is you who do not want to admit your're wrong. Attorney General State of New York........ "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.”   gatordave (gatordave) Advanced Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 501 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.137.218 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 2:33 am:        To: CEREPROBOY Attorney General State of New York........ "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.” Well first off LoRie came to this post ranting and calling Anti TTI idiots. Then I’m told I’m a back stabber etc., etc., etc., Then in response to my story of how my wife was coerced by her lawyer, police relatives, politicians to get involved in the pyramid then later frightened into lying to put me in jail to save the tourist town from scandal, LoRie responds “I would not marry a prick like that”. Quite a “gutter mouth” never mind sensitivity. Then she writes “we’re just tying to knock some sense into your dim-witted scull”. Are these the nice ordinary people involved with TTI? I don’t think I’m out of line using proper words found in the dictionary. Prostitution has more meanings than a woman who gives physical sex for money. Dictionary: “put to an unworthy or corrupt use for the sake of gain” nothing could be more accurate to describe TTI and the captains who prostitute themselves for the sake of money who know what they’re doing or, blatantly refuse to acknowledge the truth, then turn over a “cut” to the metaphoric pimp of TTI Alan Kippax who like street pimps has weapons drugs and assault to his credit. And by the way it was not 20 years ago the S.C.O. pointed out their concerns about Kippax character. It was just over a year ago they observed and wrote “these past incidents involving as they do drugs, weapons, and assault in themselves raise grave concerns about his conduct and character.” these "grave" concerns were raised on December 04, 2004 not twenty years ago. Now, anyone “brainwashed” surly can be defined as mindless. And “bimbo” is an accepted term for someone who just can’t see the obvious no matter how self evident it is. And is, I think, less insulting than idiot which was the first insult on this thread and initiated by LoRie, followed by prick, which is certainly not a nice way to describe someone’s wife, etc., etc., So let’s review. You have a founder who’s credentials are assault, weapons and drugs. Usually weapons are used to intimidate. That, interesting enough, drugs weapons and assault, also turned out to be the case with some of the people who involved my wife in pyramid fraud and threatened me. I find a great many of these scam artists turn this way as soon as you question the facts of their pyramid cult and the rest follow “blindly” in silence like sheep.” Now, why don’t we sent all that aside and have a meaningful discussion on how do you escape the fact there will always be 8 losers for every winner or is the new York State Attorney General absolutely correct...... Attorney General State of New York........ "they lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.”   comfortable (comfortable) New member Username: comfortable Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 2:51 am:        What is up with u guys... Bruce and Dave. Have u tried out the business on ur own cuz u obviously dont get it. The company doesnt give u the money... u give THEM the cash. They wait around for the captains to give them the $2600...... we are not waiting for them to receive the $7000. Again, have u ever heard of a pyramid scheme that allows u to walk away after u make ur $7000?? NO! B/c there is no business like that! If u are smart, u will introduce this business to people u know who are motivated on bringing 2 people, and then those ppl are motivated to bring 2 people etc.... how hard is that?? I dont know how u "intellects" cant grasp this concept. Because if u follow that ritual, everything goes easy peasy... and trust me I know from FIRST HAND experience. ALSO, I tend to know Mr. Alan Kippax. He is a man not so money-hungry like many ppl out there. He likes the idea how he created this opportunity for the average person to make money. He cares for these people, always looking for new ways to help TTI people understand and make their money. Also with the $1200 u invest, u get emeralds with it. Emeralds, rubies, sapphires... and they are launching a new product April.16 from what ive heard. These is a professional business and they deal with every legal matter appropriatly. Pursuing business licences, head offices etc. This is a business, Im sorry to break it to u fellahs, but get used to it. U can hate all u want but it will still be there b/c they are professional and its legal. There are no victims in this business, they are just "misinformed" unfortunate people who got introduced by the wrong people, that is NOT TTI's fault. If they go to a PROFESSIONAL presentation, then yes, it would be up to them to join or not. They will either like what they hear, or wont. Even if they dont recruit 2 people, they get the emeralds. The gem room in mississagua is SPECTACULAR. Its almost a dream room it looks gorgeous. I dont know if any of u have ever been there but I have..... if u stepped foot in it u would have nothing bad to say. I was lucky to sell my emeralds in AMERICA, I have 2 jewellers now who trust me and I distribute my emeralds to them. Its money on the side. If u treat this like a business, u get good things in return. If u have a stuck-up, close-minded attitude towards it (like 2 ppl in here)then yes.... I can honestly say u are missing out. B/c there are things u dont know obviously when it comes to TTI, but if u were to follow exactly what ur supposed to do, then trust me - its like a hot apple pie. Goodnight   lorie (lorie) New member Username: lorie Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 3:07 am:        Wow! Welcome to the thread COMFORTABLE. It's no use talking to Dave he calls me a "gutter mouth" but I'd rather have that opposed to my head stuck in a gutter, like him. Congrats on your success with TTI! I too have found a place in the states I distribute my emeralds to. So how does the gem room look?? I always wanted to go there... I was actually thinking of booking a flight just to scope it out! I looooove hot apple pie . ~*LoRie*~   gatordave (gatordave) Advanced Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 502 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.93.137.218 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 4:17 am:        Bruce Good post but I must clear up a few things with you. 1) Now, It is you who have written about creating new legislation. I don’t believe I have ever written that as you now indicate is my goal. I have always maintained the legislation is in place but not being enforce as many D.A’s. in the U.S. are enforcing it. 3) The little fish analogy didn’t bother me either. Not in the least. I welcome it. With it you helped me make it graphically clear what’s happening here. It begs the question “do you really believe it is legal to coerce some unsuspecting immigrant to a meeting he knows nothing about and subject him to false claims of the value of a product, present him with half truths and outright lies to part with $1200.” Do you really believe in all these centuries we have no laws to cover that fraudulent manipulation and misrepresentation? Really! 4) Again this is where we diverge. You have been led (because it was not your original position) to believe this is 100% legal in Canada. I don’t. And I don’t as you state, “think legislation is required to regulate people’s investment in TTI”. As you again attribute to me. I maintain it already exists and has been in place a very long time. Again I am not attempting to convince a court of law. You are meeting me at least half way on this. At least that I am trying to educate people about the facts of TTI I know I am bluntly trying to educate people of the inherent fraud in this pyramid and the fact that their own government and police are doing what they can to confuse the general public and make sure they don’t understand the simple math that makes this a fraudulent misrepresentation. And that, in my opinion is obviously because government officials and police officers are involved in it. Look at LoRie she has been in this long enough to become captain and she still can’t “git it” (the math) unless like the “big shots” who developed it only pretends not to “git it”and that’s the problem with this insidious game, you can’t tell the liars from the “duped”.. But, Bruce, how do you justify this obvious conflict of interest, when police officers and government officials with probably the highest perceived credibility tell this fraudulent “tale” to ethnic groups and unsophisticated trusting ordinary citizens from housewives to struggling students in order to participate in this business and become captains themselves? Doesn’t the inherent evil of this become more and more apparent the wider you open you eyes and your mind and look at the inner workings of this fraud.. Are these “just little fish swimming in front of sharks just asking to be eaten?” Or is this the height of hypocrisy? Now I realize I am taking you, TTI, the police, government and the media places you would rather not go and would rather pretend don’t exist and “rubbing your noises in it”. But that’s what it took to get self respecting upstanding well spoken, and well spoken about, (as you continually do with these wonderful people participating in this fraud) to stop putting little children down chimneys”. You ask the question “If you and I can not convince people to run from this model ......” I am still trying to convince people, you on the other hand were actually putting the victims down instead of trying to encourage and show them ways to warn others. You even advocate that the “sharks” get into this (which you readily admit involves “screwing” many others) then get out. I have gotten emails from people who have thanked me for the “enlightenment”. One from Calgary. He was able to convince his “gung - ho” girlfriend of the mathematics. Once she fully understood what she would be doing, and that 8 were going to ultimately lose every time she became captain she wanted nothing to do with it. I think that is true of most honest people. But they won’t come on this board to be counted. So, why are truly honest people, not those who pretend to be honest like the crap on this board, but those like this woman, how do they get involved in it as she would have been without guidance from her perceptive boyfriend? The answer? Fraudulent misrepresentation, and psychological manipulation (cult activities). Is that 100% legal in Canada Bruce? With the police and government officials promoting it? I don’t think so. People who send me emails don’t want to go on this board, even anonymously. That is the only power TTI has. The victims ignorance that they have even been cheated, or the fear to speak out. A quote from the CBC Ottawa. CBC reporter.....at TTI meeting “Immigrants seem to make up a large portion of the new recruits. The company claims people can make 500 per cent on their investment in less than three weeks. A member of Ottawa's Somali community, who has asked his real name not be used for fear of repercussions, said he's concerned about his community's involvement. That’s pretty sad and you maintain TTI is 100% legal, and there exists no laws preventing this. And you continually encourage people to get in, make a fast buck and get out knowing full well they will be creating victims. Of course by the other things you say I’m sure you mean that facetiously but why encourage them? For every winner there are eight losers. That is the mathematical certainty. But the fraudulent message to suck in family and friends, must be, and forcibly restated over and over in meetings, to the press etc. and the victims, as LoRie does......“Dave you say there are 8 "losers" what the hell are you talking about? Are you slow?? Those 8 "losers" will eventually climb to the top if they did their homework.” That is obvious Crap!! Again I use TTI words so they can understand. Fruad, fruad, fraud. Fraudulent misrepresentation can’t happen never will. Even if the “parrots” do not understand what they are parroting the “cult leaders” programming them certainly do, or they could not put together such a slick program that masks the truth of the mathematics. That can be demonstrated by carefully dissecting their computer generated cartoon program. When a person knows every time they make captain 8 must lose how do you sleep at night? That goes double for the police, and government officials promoting TTI, and making money off it, and triple for the Attorney General that diverges from his American counterpart and “runs interference” for Kippax the former drug, weapons, and assault criminal the head of this “corporate cult”. That’s wrong. It is already a violation of the laws of fraudulent misrepresentation. Attorney General N.Y. State....... is absolutely right "they [citizens] lose their judgment and in our county and in our town they’re acting like cult members. You cannot reason with them, you cannot have a discussion about for every winner there’s eight losers.”   wmmw (wmmw) Intermediate Member Username: wmmw Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.157.141.130 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 9:50 am:        To ALL FACTS-FACTS-FACTS-PROOFS-PROOFS-PROOFS 1- TTI has no positive opinion letter from Industry Canada or Federal authorities, binding on the Commissioner, that they can show you and us. Why? If they are so sure their system is legal, why not asking for such an opinion letter as other REAL and ETHICAL MLM companies do BEFORE going on the market? Such a TTI favourable letter, from the Commissioner, would have the clear and fast effect of shutting all of us, the ANTI TTI people. We challenge all Pro TTI people to come to this room with a copy of such a letter. 2- TTI is claiming to be an honest MLM company but is not a DSA or MLMIA member that represent REAL MLM companies. http://www.dsa.ca - http://dsa.org - http://www.mlmia.org - http://mlmlegal.com . TTI is not a DSA member since it would imply Mr. Kippax to be binded personally. Mr. Kippax could NOT hide himself BEHIND the corporate veil as he is doing right now with TTI. 3- TTI has a buy-back policy of 10 days for its customers and distributors, which is against the industry practices, they are claiming to be in, with MLM companies, that have a minimum of 90%-90 days and 1 year one up to an illimited period for all DSA members, for their DISTRIBUTORS wanting to end their relationship with a specific company, due to the specific nature of the MLM business. Feel free to check the Federal Government presentation, supporting ANTI TTI (CROOKS) claims at: http://mmprodnt.ic.gc.ca/mmpub/competitionbureau/content/language_select_noframe.html For the buy-back policy, just go to Slide 8, in Set TWO, and Slides 5-6-7 in SET THREE. 4- You have to wait for 14 members to be on your team BEFORE receiving your $500 on your first sale, $500 on your second one, and $6000 on your group: 2 + 4 + 8, for a total of $7000. 5- That means that you're paid for sponsoring, which is totaly ILLEGAL. If you don't sponsor, you get nothing save papers (certificates). You still have to GIVE a lot of money to TRY to trade your certificates with Go Trading, that is a totally newcomer on the market and is not known by the industry. In fact, Gotrading registered their domain name on March 30, 2004. You can check GoTrading is a REAL newcomer on the Whois site displaying the following info about them: "Domain GOTRADING.NET Date Registered: 3/30/2004 Date Modified: 10/26/2004 Expiry Date: 3/30/2005 DNS1: ns.gotrading.net DNS2: ns.gotrading.net Registrant 2024583 Ontario Limited 181 Greenwood Ave Toronto, ON (CA) M4L 2P8 Administrative Contact GOtrading.net Marketing Manager 439 King St W, 4th F Toronto (CA) M5V 1K4 4166448720 D-103476qqmt@usersa3.domainsatcost.ca Technical Contact GOtrading.net Tech Support 439 King St w, 4th F Toronto (CA) M5V 1K4 4166448720 D-103478mcmk@usersa3.domainsatcost.ca Registrar: Namescout.com" 6- Go to any jewellery store in your area and ask them if they would even accept to buy your TTI stones. 7- If TTI ceases its activities at any point in time, TTI will not have the money to pay ALL of its distributors since it is depending on newcomers to pay the CAPTAINS. 8- Only 1 out of 15 will be paid, the CAPTAINS. 9- 14 out of 15 will lose their money. 10- Most of them will be left with pieces of paper with the only paper value. 11- Pro TTI people have been unable, up to know, to clearly give us a clear payout for only ONE Gem-Pack as any other LEGAL and HONEST organization can do easily. $ % Retail Price: ? 100% Wholesale Price: ? ? Retail Profit: ? ? Bonuses on group volume: ? ? Other overrides if any: ? ? Total PAYOUT: ? ? 12- Mr. Stephen Knight has been fired from the JJ international network of appraisers on beginning of November 2004, for ETHICS VIOLATION, as you can read CLEARLY on the Jewelry Judge's site at: http://www.jewelryjudge.net/SK.html 13- If you get caught, you could go to JAIL for 5 years and be fined up to $200,000. 14- With a criminal record, you will be unable to pass the customs to go to USA. 15- You will lose your friends, your credibility and your respectability. 16- If you're ready to work hard and put time and dedication in it, there is a lot of REAL good and legal opportunities out on the market. So... open your eyes BEFORE being caught in the TTI PYRAMIDAL and PONZI SCHEME!!!   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 11:41 am:        "comfortable" - Even the mafia has a firm set of guidlines for running their "business" so I can only imagine that is the parallel you are eluding to here. If someone in the United States is paying anywhere near what you are buying these emeralds for, load them up now because as anyone in the jewellery business knows, you could purchase them for ten cents on the dollar if they were a legitimate jewelery (American spelling) retailer able to purchase at the wholesale level. "Dave" - We agree on far more than we disagree. But, the fundamental difference is in your view of the legality of "T.T.I.Co.", and mine. Yes it is true that I originally viewed this scheme as an illegal pyramid. That is what happens when someone jumps to conclusions before proper investigation. I changed my postings after realizing that "T.T.I.Co." has well covered their bases as to their legal identity. I may not like it (I sure know that you don't) but that is the way it is as my reasearch directs me. If I am wrong on the legal issue (legal, NOT moral), I await your correction. Until then, citizens are able to invest in this 100% Canadian legal business opportunity. Yes, "T.T.I.Co." will exploit those that cannot quickly assimilate all of the ramifications of their financial involvement in this scheme. But that is a problem for our courts and not Bruce and Dave (yikes, I can already hear your computer humming). I would love to solve all of the business woes of my world but at some point, I am prepared to step back and let people fend for themselves. Call it democracy, call it a desire for free will, call it whatever you like. Yes I am my brother and sister's keeper. But that doesn't give me permission to tell them how to live their lives given that the venture they are moving into is 100% legal in Canada. The New York ruling is important but until the day comes that we annex New York as part of our great Dominion, it is merely interesting information. It has absolutely NO relevance in Canada! Just something neat to know, nothing more. The New York courts do not make decisions for Bruce Audley and at the risk of appearing to speak for the enemy here, neither do they for "T.T.I.Co.". I await your posting telling me why I am wrong on this issue. Bruce   shadow (shadow) Junior Member Username: shadow Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 149.99.27.13 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 3:30 pm:        wmmw - thank you so much for proving to all of us that you REALLY don;t know what you are talking about- phew! Half your points do NOT make sense to the TTI business!   wmmw (wmmw) Intermediate Member Username: wmmw Post Number: 188 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.157.141.130 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:06 pm:        Hi Shadow, So... explain to all of us half of my points that do not make sense to you... Perhaps you could ask for help to your friends "The Truth" and "Voice of Reason"...   make7000 (make7000) Intermediate Member Username: make7000 Post Number: 183 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.150.254.233 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:12 pm:        hey wmmw Did you save that post you wrote on your computer becuase that is the same post you have posted l don't know how many time over. Come up with something new!! Your post means nothing!! We have already talked about it like a thousand time. I think Loserdave does the samething!! His posts always seem to be the same to. Some people out here need to find something better to do with there time and get a life. TTI isn't going anywhere sorry to tell all you ANTI TTI people.   comfortable (comfortable) New member Username: comfortable Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:24 pm:        Yes I totally agree with u SHADOW. These "ANTI-TTI" people who leave posts are RAMBLING ON about a business they have no idea how its ran. They come up with all these figures, these numbers that make absolutely no sense. They just dont understand how it works, as if their ears were closed during a presentation. That is if they even WENT to a presentation. Dont talk if u dont know what ur saying. Better yet, dont bash unless u know what exactly it is ur bashing. There is a much easier term "think before u type" b/c in the end, u just sound stupid to people like us who actually fully understand this business.... and are actually successful. Anyone can be successful with this, thats why its "too good to be true" b/c this is a new business ethic of our generation. A homeless man (lets call him Doug) who somehow worked his way making $1200 and invested into TTI, then brought 2 of his homeless buddies who also managed to come up with the $1200.... Already, Doug is guaranteed his $7000 just by bringing 2 of his friends in. The beauty of this business is u are allowed to RECYCLE the people u bring in. Say Doug has finished his captain position, he has the option of walking away now - never siging up again (for whatever reason) OR he can invest another $1200 and get back in the game, which Im sure he will. Why stop at $7000 when u can make $14000?? The 2 homeless friends he brought in previously, once they have become captain by doing exactly what Doug has done (bringing 2 people in) Doug can bring them in again. They just made $7000 each so I am sure they will want to be on the board again, thus, they will re-invest $1200 and become Dougs keys again,... and they cycle keeps repeating itself. No harm there. For they each made their money and are no longer homeless all b/c they followed the rules of TTI. Unlike other people who have to make it so complicated, when really it not. I still dont know how the complications arised or why they arised. My guess is that one person jumped into it too fast expecting fast cash without doing any work, OR got misinformed by the wrong person and created a big fuss involving its legitamacy as a business. Like I said, there is always someone who has to try ruining it for others when really theres no need. This is a business that has the ability to make the average joe a wealthy joe. Just follow the rules but most important: understand the rules before u follow. Also, just so u know Bruce.... I know my fair share of knowledge about these emeralds (thanks to this company). I dont just sell emeralds cluelessly otherwise ur right, I wont be making anything... jewellers wouldnt be interested. I ask them what they are looking for, ex: how many carats, the cut/shape, etc. When I am distribuiting a 5 carat, princess cut, colombian emerald to a jeweller.... well lets just say he is not paying me pennies for it. Now multiply that by not 1 stone, but four 5 carat stones. How would that look in american dollars?? Pretty nice I would say. AND best of all, I have earned their trust as a loyal distributor, they will keep me in their books and call upon when they are in need of another precious gem. U cant just expect things to fall in ur lap and have a negative attitude towards getting rid of ur emeralds. Of course u will hear rejection from jewellers... Ive heard it many times! But dont give up, u will eventually find a private jeweller who will bargain with u at a well cost. I already found 2!!!! Anyways, I dont want to keep going b/c I know whatever I say u ANTI -TTIers will lash back at something. Whatever it may be, but please.... before u conclude and send ur post, why dont u back up ur opinion with something that makes sense. Have a gem of a day   comfortable (comfortable) New member Username: comfortable Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 7:39 pm:        Im sorry Lorie. I totally ignored ur qestion hahaha!! The GEM ROOM in Ontario is beyond glorious. Before I walked in I thought it would be a room with florescent lighting... like a typical jewellery store. BUT WAS I WRONG!! It looked like a cave with gems left right and center. Something u would see in a museum. Ur mouth would drop, theyve spent alot of money creating that room thats for sure, it would be well worth ur trip to fly down just to see what this room consists of. Cash in ur certificate and pick out ur gems, u will have a hard time choosing for they are all magnificant!! Good luck girl!!!! ;)   gatordave (gatordave) Advanced Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 503 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.71.30.3 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 9:54 pm:        Well BRUCE “I am my brother’s keeper”and your correct it doesn’t give anyone the right to tell anyone how to live. I just want to give the unsuspecting the knowledge to make an informed decision. After that sorry, you understood, if you want to continue that’s your (informed) choice. Even God gave Adam that chance. He didn’t tell him “the tree” was going to bring him prosperity and wealth than laugh at him for eating the “Apple”. It was the “slimy deceptive snake” told Eve that one; just like TTI does and you know what that did to the household. Now as far as the laws go we have the same laws in Canada. But on a side note the N.Y. Attorney General can’t come here, but I notice TTI so far hasn’t gone there as the big plan was last October. Unless they were thinking of Utah where many thought the State was going to pass legislation allowing essentially any pyramid scheme to operate until enough concerned citizens were able to mount a successful campaign against the lobbyists resulting in the defeat of the Bill. I am going to give the legal issue one more shot with you Bruce. There are laws with serious consequences governing false and misleading advertising and claims, setting everything else aside. Surely Bruce you must agree with that. Fraud is defined as “1. Wrongful deception intended to result in financial or personal gain 2.a person intending or thing intended to deceive .” Now, TTI promotes the false proposition that the only criteria for everyone to become a successful captain is that you work diligently finding two other recruits among the general population. We agree, I think, on the position that mathematically it is impossible and at some point there is noone left to recruit. End of story. To lead the public to believe that, by not disclosing the truth of the inherent “fatal flaw” in this “business model” is to deceive. Those that do it are the persons who deceive. The pyramid game board is the “thing” used, intended to deceive. 2) This is in your field of expertise. The constantly touted retail value of these emeralds is also false and misleading if I interpret correctly what you have continually posted. Certainly, these again are people misleading others for personal gain. A great analogy is panning for gold. If you were to place (“salt”) a finite no of gold nuggets amongst the pebbles in a very long stream, so you would know there was a finite number then sell a ticket, (purchase order certificate) for $1200 guaranteeing everyone they would all find gold as long as they kept looking diligently through the pebbles (population) knowing full well once the 10,000 nuggets were retrieved there were no more. That obviously is fraud. What is also obvious is the first to start finding those nuggets “yelling excitedly” as to how easy it was would appear to confirm your claim and start a “rush.” Knowing that each one who found the gold would attract 8 more after the finite supply was exhausted would be predicable and therefore deceptive. You would know the gold was exhausted but watch your victims going though the pebbles believing there was more. This is TTI. Once the number of recruitable in any given area is predicably exhausted it leaves the last recruits who have no idea, embarrassingly searching through, first the probably over 90% of the population who would never become involved, then those who would but already have. What a waste of time and embarrassment until you realize you have been deceived. That is fraud. It is deception, it is deceit, it is misleading advertizing if nothing else, it is against the laws in this country, it is illegal. Imagine. Under your 100% perfectly legal TTI, a professor can perpetrate this on a student, to the age of 16 with consent like taking candy from a baby. Suppose mother gets sucked into it. Sixteen year old son and/or daughter has a couple of thousand in savings. Mother's convinced, why not let the kids make some serious money too. Maybe together they can buy a new house, car, vacation. It is the dream TTI is getting citizens to “buy into”. They saw one person do it, and are told the antidotal success stories of others (the few exceptions). That’s what the TTI’s are “selling” us here. That they’ve helped families achieve this. Well, so did Ponzi, the first few, in order to deceive the rest. Then the family is so excited and being this helpful group of nice people tell their neighbours, and it spreads like salmonella poisoning at a church picnic brought there by well intentioned people. It is easy to perpetrate this on anyone without a basic education, a new immigrant etc. Any police officer can use his credibility to do the same. Any lawyer, a politician, the banker, the accountant, the minister to his congregation. anyone to anybody. A simple repeat of Charles Ponzi’s basic theme, later recruits losing to the first few while he took a cut of the moving assets. And this in your view is 100% perfectly legal and there is not one statue that can deal with this. I really think you missed reading something along the way Bruce. dave P.S. Bruce aside from the legal position on this doesn’t comfortable's circular argument and his other ridiculous nonsense optimise the very essence of the facts here. It is this that they are "brainwashing" our students and other citizens to believe. Allowed to continue immage the damage of another $5,000, pyramid scheme like "WEW" or $10,000 or $20,000. Emagine the damage. Agian, look at Albania, "the handwriting is on the wall" Get this famous quote from comfortable. Should be mounted. Maybe a bumpber sticker..... "Anyone can be successful with this, that's why it's too good to be true". (Message edited by gatordave on April 05, 2005) (Message edited by gatordave on April 05, 2005)   bruce_audley (bruce_audley) Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.53.28.106 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 10:37 pm:        "Dave" - Excuse my english but, Damn Straight! I am not sure I have anything I can add to that. Now, if we could just convince someone in a position to move on this. Any ideas? "comfortable" - I was almost moved to tears by your homeless people analogy though, I fear that even they are not safe from the reaches of this organization. Let's hope that they are because otherwise the tears will be real. As for the inspired awe of a glittering cave lite by nothing more significant then the magic of flourescent lighting well, I must admit that leaves me almost speechless. Let me give it a go however, just for the few good folks that have hung in this long and are interested in fair play. If you have found someone to purchase your emerald packs for anything near the value that you are paying for them (I don't care what cut or carat weight), my advice is sell them a lot and do it quickly. They clearly have no clue of the value of what they are purchasing and you should get your licks in now in ANY currency you can get because one day they are going to wake out of their deep sleep. How do I know? The loose stone business in North America has more or less operated the same through many generations now. While I can appreciate that the couple of weeks you have in the business makes you already a seasoned veteran, please allow me to defer to my thirty four years for the benefit of anyone casually reading this forum. Loose natural beryl has languished in value for a long while now and the crash in value in the natural corundum market has been well documented over the past several years. The jewellery trade is only hoping that values for other gemstones doesn't crash similarly but at this point, there is still much debate internationally about what may be done to prevent such a tragedy. Ironically, the consumption of loose emeralds by any organization, "T.T.I.Co." included, is a blessing to the North Amercian industry. There is a ready supply of this product in the world and some of the material is available at the lowest prices our industry has seen in years. Here's the problem as it exists with your scenerio of the wealthy and naive American purchaser. There is not a jeweller in North America, that is not able to receive at a moments notice, all of the synthetic and natural beryl (emerald), synthetic and natural corundum (sapphire and ruby) and for that matter, synthetic, cultured (currently a debated gemmological terminology) and natural diamond that he or she wants, ON MEMO! That means with absolutely no money exchanging hands between the loose stone dealer and the end retailer! Why would anyone pay you for product that they can competitively view anywhere for no money? Have they heard of the telephone? I'm just asking because that is the only reasonable explanation for why they would see your prices as being any kind of financial benefit. Now couple that with the fact that the average "wholesale" prices for the material that I have personally seen and held in my own hands (three separate emerald packs), is dramatically less than the $1,200.00 "T.T.I.Co." is asking. In one case here in Edmonton, I would have had no problem replacing the one stone I viewed for roughly $300.00 (plus 8% excise). All this means to me is "T.T.I.Co." is marking-up and selling product, something I am very thankful for. In that regard, I wish them a lot of success because my industry needs the boost. But please, let's not create facts that are simply NOT true. As I stated before, load your U.S. connections up because one day they are going to do a very, very small amount of homework and the rest as they say will be history! And one last thing. Your "Pro-T.T.I.Co." side is in danger of becoming known as the town bullies. Perhaps a suggested motto for your group should be something like, "Sign on the bottom line because we know what is best for you even if you don't and, if you don't sign we will call all of those that did and we will say all kinds of mean things about what a stupid person you are for not seeing the real oportunity we are offering"! Maybe not the most catchy but it sure is starting to sound like the most accurate. Respectfully, Bruce   gatordave (gatordave) Advanced Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 504 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.71.30.3 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:05 am:        Back at you Bruce I have contacted a professor of criminology who analysed and commented on the “WEW” pyramid that wreaked havoc on the Isle of Wight, Scotland, and the rest of the U.K. He emailed back saying he was going to look into it. Robert FitzPatrick has a world wide organization attempting to crack down on pyramid and Ponzi Schemes. He has a lot of contacts. He was looking for volunteers in Canada to keep them posted on new schemes popping up. Perhaps send him and email and explain from your point of view what is happening here. RFitzPatrick@FalseProfits.com For right now just send an email to mayorandcouncil@vancouver.ca and postmaster@city.burnaby.bc.ca again explaining we are a group of concerned citizens who would like to inform you of our opinion as to how this company will operate in your city and the inherent flaws that we believe would not be to the best interest of your community. And explain the misconception with regard to the emeralds and the recruiting practices. Burnaby council is already concerned and studying some of the “red flags” that were raised and this would give them an informed look into the “other side” of the issue and if they fully understand it, do they want it?. This is simple freedom of speech and expression and I believe if you know something important that can negatively affect people in every walk of life in a whole community and a nation I believe we have a responsibly to “put it on the table” for consideration. dave P.S. I would urge anyone else who reads this forum and feels this way to do the same thing. (Message edited by gatordave on April 06, 2005)   gatordave (gatordave) Advanced Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 505 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 67.71.30.3 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:21 am:        The latest busted "scam". There are some interesting parallels and observations on the fastest growing type of crime. http://tinyurl.com/9r77u (Message edited by gatordave on April 06, 2005) The last line in the story above is..... “This is really a made-for-TV case,” Brown said. “He put on a good show, talked the talk and delivered. It did work out for him for awhile, though, before the pyramid bottomed out.” (Message edited by gatordave on April 06, 2005) (Message edited by admin on April 28, 2005)   info_seeker (info_seeker) New member Username: info_seeker Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.26.101.141 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:28 am:        Off topic: Hiya cerebroboy   cerebroboy (cerebroboy) New member Username: cerebroboy Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 69.198.50.143 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 1:19 pm:        Hi info_seeker - nice to put a face to the name. Take care!   comfortable (comfortable) New member Username: comfortable Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.69.255.203 Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 5:12 pm: