| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
My experience attending the Life Training weekend I have recently attended the Kairos Foundation - Life Training Weekend. This training claims to provide life changing experiences for attendees. Firstly the 35 hours were from 6pm-12midnight on a Friday and 9am - 12 midnight on both Saturday and Sunday. The first 'Induction' session took place on the Friday night. Here we were asked to sign a 'discipline' sheet. This requested a commitment on what drink and food we consumed during the course, the taking of unprescribed medicines was not allowed and certain behaviours and speech during the training was requested. When questioned about the relevance of these requests the course leaders asked those opposed to stand with a microphone to verbalize their concerns. If they were unable to 'persuade' the individual to sign they stated that they would have to leave the training without refund (as a refund was only available after attending the full programme) So the choice was taken away from people and if there were to be a chance of requesting a refund they HAD to sign the disciplines. At the beginning of each session people were asked to stand and admit to breaches of the disciplines, if even further resistance was given these people were asked personal questions about their feelings and past experiences. On some occasions a person was standing for 45 minutes answering questions before being "asked to re-commit" to the disciplines. At no point did the trainers explain the purpose and objectives intended in the signing and compliance with these 'rules'. At the end of each session a man stood in front of the group and spoke slowly and clearly giving exact instructions on lunch and dinner break procedures. He gave the exact time of the end of the session and the exact time for being seated. Of course if you breached one of these you were asked to admit to this at the beginning of each session again and so it went on. On each of the days we were allowed one and a half hours for Dinner and one and a quarter hours for Lunch. No other breaks were given. If we wanted to leave the room we had to show our name badges and a person at the door wrote down the time we left and a person was seated by the toilets too. On arrival back we were 'clocked' back in. At every opportunity the trainers encouraged people to 'pop' out their feelings. If you put your hand up to speak (which of course was a discipline) you were immediately given a microphone. An innocent remark or comment was often followed by a question promoting the person to 'open' up about their past experiences. If on the rare occasion someone raised their other arm to request not to speak further, that person received a comment like "you want to refrain from speaking?" with a tone implying that the person was stupid for not progressing. There were comments on a persons body language made in front of the group of 30 participants and 30 'support' people (who had already attended the weekend and were actively involved in the Kairos Foundation work.). One person whilst lying on the floor was told "he was already dead". The course proceeded with a lot of lengthy silences and staring eye contact from the trainers. People were asked to come to the front of the group and talk about their past life experiences, what they felt and what they were thinking at the time. This could last for anything up to an hour. That person was exposed to a process of rapid regression into an experience often of a highly personal nature. When they were asked to open their eyes the trainers went through a process of putting the word 'true, false and don't know against everything the person had said. This was the tool for the life experience! They gave out an A5 sheet of the steps to take in the 'clearing' processes at the end of the Saturday. These were simply: 1. Re experience your Lifeshock and breathe into your feelings 2. Listen to your mind talk 3. Verify:true, false or don't know 4. Tell the truth about your lifeshock 5. Choose what now to do and how to be 6. Visualize yourself doing and being it One of the support people came up and demonstrated a rapid regression process entitled the 'cost' process. Here he shut his eyes (as with the clearing process) and proceeded to cry and describe serious sexual problems with his partner. The process simply being: 1. Confess the full extent of your resentment 2. Share your payoff and your cost 3. Ask and offer forgiveness 4. Commit to a new intention or action At this point I left the room and came back 10 minutes later. At the bottom of the stairs the support person came after me and I told her I was taking 10 minutes 'out' ALONE. I did not stand to admit a breach of disciplines and support staff continued to approach me relating to 'my feelings'. I was very honest in saying that I had not learned anything new and that the environment and conditions were manipulative and inappropriate for training courses. I told a number of the support people that aspects of control fitted into a model of mind control that perhaps they were not aware of. The last days environment was one of frequent group applause, chanting to the word 'yes' and a monotone note for 15 minutes. A meditating exercise, singing and holding hands and an intense 'eye' contact exercise which required people to look into one anothers eyes for 45 minutes! A woman started to hyperventilate in this session. The support staff proceeded to go around and softly tell people to "really connect' with one another. All these exercises came with NO objectives or outcomes and to me were not related to the two simple process models which could have been trained in one day at the most. The final exercise was to look into a mirror and tell yourself what you have been giving yourself a 'hard' time about and then to go on and tell yourself how you like and appreciate yourself. A support person was standing by your side promoting you to describe your feelings and the details of your experiences. I refused to speak about my previous experience stating that it had no relevance to her (the support person) and that I was fully able to follow the step by step guide myself. The last 4 hours of the course was devoted to explaining the further life training courses, The Way of a Warrior in the USA and further sessions locally. A request was put out for people to become support staff in further training sessions. We were asked to complete forms indicating what further training we wanted to attend or support. We were asked for full contact details. From my knowledge I am sure that the environment created, the training approaches and conditions were directly connected with the BITE model of mind control techniques. In particular the following aspects: Behaviour Control 1.Regulation of where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with=with the times going on until midnight there is little opportunity to converse with any other person out with the group. 2. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts and rejects = No drugs unless prescribed, the amount of caffeine drank, smoking, chocolate, sweets, gum 3. How much sleep the person has = Midnight finishes and a discipline that requests people to go to the side of the room if they feel sleepy, to stretch and wake up again. 4. Financial dependence = "you will not receive a refund if you don't stay which means you must sign the disciplines" 5. Major time commitment 6. Need to ask permission = hands up and down to speak or not 7. Rewards and punishments = group applause, have to stand and admit to breaches in disciplines 8. Individualism discouraged=Group pressure and prolonged silences and eye contact . People 'put down' in front of the rest of the group. 9. Rigid rules and regulations=disciplines, timed toilet trips 10 Need for obedience and dependency=Have to be seated and not talking when trainers walk in, stand up if you have not fulfilled disciplines. Information Control 1. Deliberately holding back information= no content or information given about the content of the course, only a leaflet specifying good experiences of ex attendees. Being mislead in recruitment seminars. Saying things like"you do not have to do anything". 2. Outright Lying= I asked about the use of microphones in the introductory seminar. The trainer said this wasn't the case. 3. Information not freely accessible=Little known about founders 4. Pairing up with buddy system to monitor thoughts and control=One person for each attendee Thought Control 1. Need to internalize the groups doctrine as "Truth" Black and White thinking=all emotions and mind talk is true, false or you don't know 2. Adopting loaded language = couldn't use certain words to describe your feelings 3. Only good and proper thoughts are encouraged=negative people were 'exposed' in front of the whole group 4. Thought stopping techniques (to shut down 'reality testing' by stopping 'negative' thoughts and allowing only 'good' thoughts; rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. a.Chanting b.Meditating c.Singing and humming 5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate=Humiliating training methods like the use of the microphone, prolonged silences and implications 6. No alternative belief system viewed as legitimate, good or useful. Emotional Control 1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a persons feeling 2. Identity guilt a. Who you are (not living up to your potential) b. Your past c. Your thoughts, feelings, actions on historical events Extremes of emotional highs and lows Ritual and often public confessions In conclusion I have no doubt that this course is used as an introduction and induction into the Kairos Foundation. The controlled environment created by the training methods used is manipulative. It is clear that the main objective is to 'recruit' people for further 'life experiences' of which it is clear that behavours, thoughts, emotions and information is further enforced. Any 'appropriate' and legitimate training programme will be clear about experiences and methods of learning. Any legitimate training programme will use methods to promote new experiences but this is done with clear objectives, no control and a real freedom to choose and a freedom of mind. Finally it is clear that the main objective is to further recruit and not for the best interests of individuals. Next Steps I would like the opportunity to raise the publics awareness to these types of training courses and really enable people to make a free choice as to whether this sort of approach is for them. I believe this sort of approach to training and so called 'spiritual' groups is rife in New Zealand and the public have a right to learn about what to look out for. What they say about themselves ! This group is a foundation that offers large group training programmes. Their mission is "to awaken people everywhere to the interconnectedness of all things, so they can release their full potential for living, evoke that potential in others, and play a creative part in the evolution of the world". There is little information known about the founders and their backgrounds. Although one of the founders Roy Whitten is alleged to have background est training (now know as Forum, an offshoot being Landmark Training) The other founder is Brad Brown. What they say about themselves A way of being in life that will deepen your relationships, enhance your ability to lead and influence others, accelerate your personal effectiveness, and help you get more out of life than you may have ever imagined was possible. The Life Training Program The challenge of change in an evolving world The moment we first were able to see an image of our planet from space, it became easier to grasp how interconnected everything really is. How the tiniest thing that happens also affects everything else that happens. And how the natural feedback system of our own environment operates to warn us when things are going wrong. While we may be starting to realize how to learn from our environment, we are still very unskilled at learning from the events of our own personal lives. We talk about the special wisdom that is gained from experience. We like to believe we can learn from our mistakes. We may sometimes even stop and wonder if life really is trying to tell us something. But we rarely take the time to work out exactly what this might be. The Life Training Program is dedicated to the idea that there is something crucial to be learned from everything that happens to us. And it starts with the critical moments of our own past. During the course work, you can learn how to re-evaluate the key events of your life and wake up to the feedback that was being offered at the time. You can find out how to notice your own habitual reactions to other people and take charge of your relationships in a new and fruitful way. And you can learn how to continue to discern life's guidance, as you create new purposes for yourself and others you care about. The Life Training Program is a synthesis of classical spiritual traditions and modern psychology. It works experientially, so everyone can gain from it. All the basic skills of the Program are available in a single intensive weekend format called The Kairos Foundation There are moments in human history when we choose to say 'yes' to a particular challenge that is confronting us, when we choose to step into our willingness and our creativity, instead of continuing to dwell in impossibility or in despair. The Greeks called such moments 'Kairos' moments and they are the turning points of our lives. All at once, we can see possibilities and not just problems. We realize there are opportunities being offered to us, not just a series of obstacles in our path. It almost seems that we are being guided to find solutions, instead of continually coming up against a wall. Kairos moments often happen when we least expect them. In daily life, they may correspond with apparently insignificant events. Yet they come at critical times in our personal lives and at key moments in the life of the social and political communities of which we are a part. It is the aim of the Kairos Foundation, which sponsors Life Training courses, to enable people to respond creatively to these moments of challenge and to contribute creatively toward the unfolding evolution of our world. Together, Kairos Foundation Sponsors contribute nearly 20% of the administrative costs of The Life Training Program and these contributions enable the course work to be offered at a subsidized fee. In some areas, fees are as little as half the cost of commercially run seminars. The Kairos Foundation is formally organized under the Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation Law for Charitable and Educational Purposes in the State of California, USA. The preamble to the Constitution states that it is not for the private gain of any person and the Foundation is governed by an independent Board of Directors, who serve without financial compensation. Its stated purpose is: "To conduct public forums, panels, lectures, workshops and discussion groups, offer courses of study and publish public interest educational materials for the spiritual transformation of the quality of personal and corporate life." The Kairos Foundation is organized and operated exclusively for educational and charitable purposes within the meaning of Section 501 (c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of the United States of America. Its registered office is located at 1508 Coleman Road, Suite 110, Knoxville, Tennessee 37909, USA. W. Roy Whitten, M. Div., co-founder of The Life Training Program, is an educator, consultant, counselor, and student of a variety of spiritual practices. He is the author of several books and publications including Simply Being Happy and I Think My Mind Is Tricking Me which was written with his son, Joshua. I Think My Mind is Tricking Me was written for children and illustrates 'mindtalk,' one of the concepts of The Life Training Program. During the 1970’s, the Rev. Roy Whitten served as a parish minister at the Episcopal Church in Silver Spring, MD; Los Altos, California and San Jose, California. During the past twenty years he has studied Eastern and Western spiritual practices including Transcendental Meditation, Contemplative Prayer, Zen, American Indian practices, the Gurdjieff system and others. Roy Whitten was Family Pastoral Counselor/Spiritual Director at the Institute for Family & Human Relations in Los Gatos, California. It was during this period that he and Brad Brown created The Life Training Program and founded the Kairos Foundation, the charitable, educational foundation which sponsors the program. Roy Whitten is presently a Senior Trainer, Director of the Kairos Foundation and a principal partner in the Brown, Whitten, and Coats Consulting Group. Roy Whitten is a vegetarian cook who loves to play tennis, ski and backpack. Roy Whitten and his wife, Jeanne, have two children. Dr. K. Bradford Brown, Ph.D, co-founder of The Life Training Program, is an author, a theologian, a pioneering psychotherapist, and a remarkable teacher. From the American Civil Rights movement to South African townships, Brad Brown works with people who are changing their lives to bring out their potential and the potential for our world. During the 1960's, Brad Brown was Rector at All Souls Episcopal Church, Berkeley, California, and marched with Martin Luther King in Alabama. He has studied in Nepal and India and has worked with some of the world's leading psychologists and spiritual teachers, including Viktor Frankl, Alan Watts, and Carl Rogers. Brad Brown is also the founder of the Institute for Family and Human Relations in Los Gatos, California, and has been a consultant to government agencies and international organizations. He has also authored various publications and audio tapes which illustrate and expand upon the principles of The Life Training Program. The Life Training Program sums up his life's work: Helping ordinary people to do extraordinary things. Brad Brown is married to Sara and has five children and four grandchildren. | ||
| Anonymous |
I attended a Life Training weekend recently and my experience was in sharp contrast to the earlier poster. I thought it was terrific, and despite having read LOTS of self-help books, listening to dozens of Nightingale-Contant courses, and even doing the Tony Robbins' "firewalk", I discovered some new and clever tools for getting myself to act. I would highly recommend it to people who are interested in personal achievement. First, the disciplines. You're asked to sign a sheet of paper saying you will not do certain things during the weekend, like take caffeine, alcohol, unprescribed medicine. You agree not to say "good" or "bad" when discussing your feelings. Stuff like that. They ask you to think carefully about signing this document, because it's like giving your word. But the whole point of the document is to make you think about giving your word... to yourself and to others. And to evaluate how important "your word" is in your life. For a lot of people, realizing that "your word" doesn't mean much, is truly disturbing. The fact is, by signing this document, I gave my word that I would not be late to a session, take ibuprofen, etc. But I broke both of these promises (and others), and that gave the instructor an opportunity to discuss with me other times in my life when I've given my word... and didn't follow through. Then, he proceeded to show me the destructive consequences in my life of going back on my word. Ordinarily, that would be a little humiliating, but by then, everyone in the group had developed such a rapport, that I felt supported and understood. And I committed to keep my word from that moment forward. The disciplines and the controlled environment are set up to take away all your excuses, so that you can get to the heart of why you behave the way you do. I totally understand that it may look a little strange to someone who hasn't experienced it, but having just taken the course, it makes perfect sense to me now. You either "get it" or you don't, and I can tell you several people in my course NEVER got it, and still believe that "not chewing gum" was a rule the trainers forced upon them, instead of aknowledging it was a self-discipline that promised, but then chose to break. I have no doubt there will always be a handful of Life Training graduates who come away believing that the whole disciple thing is silly. But I think it's a brilliant tool for discovering how our mind talk vetoes the actions that are best for us. Also, some of the lessons and processes for getting at your problems ARE available in other courses and other books. But there's something about having them brought out and discussed in a group forum that lets you own and admit your problems more powerfully, and I think that tends to elicit a vow from you to actually fix them. The earlier poster also mentioned secrecy. I wouldn't call it secrecy so much as not telling you in advance what to expect. My friend had told us a few things that he experienced, and those parts of the course were "watered down" for me because I was braced for them and knew what to expect. Had I not known what to expect, I would have gotten more out of them. For example, the purpose of a Rorshack (sp?) test is to get you to say the first thing that comes to your mind. But if you saw the inkblots ahead of time, and had time to study them, the spontanaity would be lost, and your responses would be less authentic. I think that's why they don't go into much detail about the actual contents of the course. I want to make it clear that I am in no way connected to the Kairos foundation, and do not care one way or the other about what people think about it. But I was surprised by the posting about it because I came away feeling very positive about the course and myself. The person who suggested the course to me was a member of my church, and one of the most devout Christians I've ever met. There is nothing in the course that contravenes any Christian religious teaching. The bulk of it involves strategies for letting go of resentment, loving others unconditionally, forgiving yourself, mastering self-discipline, etc. To be perfectly frank, I do not think the course is appropriate for everyone. A lot of emotions bubble up to the surface, and I suspect that could be uncomfortable for some, especially men who are unaccustomed to letting their feelings out. Every single person in our group - about 20 - got something out of the course. And the people who got the most out of it, were the people who opened up and shared the most. Of course, it doesn't matter if you choose not to go to a Life Training seminar, but if the reason for avoiding it is "it sounds like a cult", then you may be missing out on an interesting therapeutic process for no good reason. Sure, it's unorthodox, maybe, but I found it very helpful. | ||
| S. Roberts |
Life Training by The Kairos Foundation is not a cult. I took my first Life Training Weekend (LTW) in August of 2003 and since then served as a member of the Support team for the LTW last month. The Testimonial 1/21/02 accurately describes the process but the writer missed the rationale and benefit behind many of the exercises. The disciplines have several purposes. First they are not RULES and when you sign the agreement, you are making a contract with yourself. One of the disciplines is to not use the words “Good” or “Bad”. What could be wrong with Good and Bad? Nothing except it is an exercise in AWARENESS! We go through life without noticing and a reason for the disciplines is to help you monitor and so you can change your behavior. Another reason (my theory) is that they provide a seaway into uncovering a behavior or attitude. Not being in your seat on time is also indicative of patterns in your life and the trainer exploits this discipline to get the offender to explore why. Disciplines are like New Year resolutions except there is someone there to challenge you on why you did not live up to your commitment. Staring into someone’s eyes for an extended period of time is a very scary proposition. To connect with someone requires a lot of courage but after a while it becomes easier and you can learn a lot about yourself. The writer of the cited post complains that the course objectives were not clearly stated. Mine were before I went to the group and I have stated what goes on to people I talk to about taking the class. How some of the exercises we are taught, that I practice daily, are still a mystery why they work. The course is about Mind Control. But it is about being able to control your own mind and to be able to wash away the “brain washing” we all got as children. I think the LTW would be a great way to Re-Program people that have been in cults. The course comes with a money back guarantee with the condition that the person completes the course. What shrink will give you that kind of promise. Some Internet sites cite that the founders were EST trained. I do not know if that is true or not but I find nothing that even hints of any kind of “brain washing”. The LTW is not a 1 weekend fix but it provides the person that works at it with valuable tools to help conquer fears, build self extreme, become less controlling and live a happier life. For me it: Saved my life. I was slowly killing myself by neglect and abuse. Now I am in the Gym 3 days a week and losing weight. I now have high self-esteem. Material things are not as important and charity is more important. I no longer need expensive toys to feel good about myself. I am more tolerant of others. I let go of hate and do not hold grudges. I don’t get involved in dramas or idle gossip. The Kairos Foundation teaches several courses other than the LTW. Their Power of People and Self-Esteem are taught to senior staff at one of the large Defense Contractors in the area. It was the corporate sponsorship of the Foundation Courses that lead to the establishment of the local “community” This “community” is an all-volunteer organization. The only paid people are the trainers that fly from all over the world. The cost of the LTW is a break-even proposition. Most of the foundations funds come from individual contributions. There are scholarships for low-income people. They have a large community in South Africa and have played a big part in reuniting the people of that country. These courses are taught in Prisons and Corporate boardrooms. The weekend is intense and it needs to be in order to break through our defenses that hide our inner hurts. The course has been shortened by an hour each night so that the students and the Support Team who are still there while the students are in bed can have more rest. The weekend is long because there is a lot of material to be covered. We do not wear robes or chant “hare christener”. Most of our community is made up of Scientist and Engineers. We support each other in times of need by talking or going through exercises and we are learning to live in the present. Not everyone is happy with the course but I have those that are not were not willing to invest the emotional capital necessary for change. To call this organization a cult is a disservice to people wanting to learn a better way of living by scarring them off with this label. | ||
| Anonymous |
Exactly what DO you learn by staring into someones eyes for a long period of time? | ||
| Anonymous |
My spouse and I attended a "life training" based off of Lifespring - My belief is that it is a cult. It has some good advice, HOWEVER the behavior modification through manipulation kinda ruined it for me. My spouse however bought it, hook, line and sinker. It got him so dependant on what his "new friends(family)" thought and told him to do that he totally abandoned his responsibilties as my husband and friend. This program had the nerve to think they were more important than the vow we took before God and family. The leadership program did nothing but create a follower - something really flipped in his mind - even the expression on his face and the look in his eyes - not my husband. He was more like a "pod" like in the movie "invasion of the body snatchers" I also observed that it created MORE self-doubt than he started out with. The program is full of manipulators who use and abuse NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) power of persuasion through manipulation. I'm all for self improvement, but I will never put something as precious and powerful as my mind and well-being in the hands of such programs. | ||
| Anonymous |
It ended my marriage - how's that for life-training? | ||
| Anonymous |
Anthing that concentrates on understanding self rather than understanding how we relate is destined to ruin relationships. The previous poster is not the only one. The Life Training Program has left a legacy of many dozens or hundreds of broken relationships | ||
| concerned |
That last posting was well meaning, but not relevant. There is a complex reason these trainings ruin lives. They have been psychologically designed to control one's mind and emotions. The trainings ruined my relationship with my fiance, took away her kids, put me in legal trouble, encouraged an emotionally unbalanced ex to attack me - they ruin lives. I would like to communicate with the woman who lost her marriage. | ||
| Anonymous |
Is this anything to do with Insight? | ||
| Anonymous |
I heard there is a group legal action pending against Kairos Foundation - anyone got any details? | ||
| Alicia |
The poster “Concerned” says these the Life Training program ruin lives and that the reason is the trainings has been psycologically designed to control one's mind and emotions. As another of the hundreds of Karios victims (the recurring story of broken relacionship) I entirely agree. I can’t speak for the founders and what their motives might be, but it seems to me that the people running this show on a day-by-day basis and the numerous “volunteers” that enrol people and mentor them is absolutely sincere. The sad fact is that those who are controlled don’t know it . The happiness and freedom they crave they think they found. They can only talk to friends and relations about an amazing and awesome experiense that has changed their lives. And yes their lives have been changed. They become defensive or at best evasive when challenged to say or show exactly how its changed their lives because to say something bad about the program has been drummed in as just not on. Yet they are utterly convinsed they have been enriched. The awful tragedy is that usually thereafter every little set-back in life makes them depressed because they’ve been programd not to expect set-backs (hence the increasing self-doubt of the 10 December poster’s husband) , and they can no longer relate to those who are not similarly controlled (hence the broken relationships and marriages mentioned by posters on 10 Jan, 31 Jan, 1 Feb and 1 Feb). S Robert, an obvious convert, refers to it as a community. Without knowing it this poster has hit the nail on the head. Also I liked the Freudian slip about it building “self extreme” The most important thing for S Robert (presumably because it’s the first thing mentioned) is that he/she is in the gym 3 days a week. Wow, that really blows my mind!! People who don’t follow the disciplines he describes as “offenders” . The program exploits guilt like hell and thats the real killer. Presumably (s)he has been made to feel so guilty (s)he cannot leave the “community” cause that’s the only thing that would heap more guilt into his/her lonely life as (s)he mindlessly relates to the rowing-machine. The poster on 10 June, another obvious convert. refers to it as “the whole disciple thing” and a “controled environment” and yet again without knowing it that poster has abslutely hit the nail on the head. To him/her it was a tool to getting him or her to act and to personal achevement , but typically of what we are not told. Presumably both these converts - who think they are selling the program but in fact to anyone whose mind is not controlled by being a convert or coming under the strangling influence of a convert they are only reinforcing the dangers - are white and middle-class. I’m proud to be black and working-class, but I made the mistake of marrying a white man who had no sense with money or emotions and threw himself into this community abyss leaving me with two kids and a torrent of obsenities. Black people and the working classes have known exploitation and control and know to avoid it like the plaige. Fools and their money are soon parted. I hope i don’t sound bitter and if my ex-husband really is happy then I’m glad for him, but I saw him lose his and freedom of the mind to me is the most precious thing. As for the group legal action I'm not after compensation from Karios or anyone. Lawyers and the law system can control your mind as much as this organisaiton. All I want to do is stop others losing their freedom. | ||
| Anonymous |
It amazes me how blind people can be. Of course relationships are broken. It should be no surprise. Because one person has moved on and seen the truth about themselves and their mind, and the other person won’t move on. It’s the same with any belief system. Did not Jesus say he had come to tear families apart and set people against each other? Truth will set free from relationships that keep people back. For most people personal development may mean breaking out of the shackles of existing relationships that screw us up and stop us being personally fulfilled beings. Another poster talked of vagueness in quantifying the benefits. Well, I will be very specific. I recognised and accepted the anger inside me as an energising and liberating force and that’s been for me an amazing experience worth the money many times over. I attribute it only to the LTW. I would not have seen that had it not been for the Life Training Weekend and the dogged persistence of those who forced me last August to look into my inner recesses. Yes, like most of my brothers and sisters I’ve lost many friends, but were they important? I thought so at the time but in the great scheme of things they weren’t. I’ve made great new friends who approach life the same way as me and I’m in tune with reality and the overall connectivity of life. So I say to anyone trust me give it a go it will change you as its’ changed me, don't ask me how it's done, I guess a lot is subconscious but all I know is it's happened and isn't that exactly what its set out to do? How can anyone say otherwise? Yet if we try to rationalise it the power is gone. Hope that makes some sense and strikes a chord. | ||
| kerry |
I went on the Life Training Weekend because my ex-boyfriend talked me into it. I feel abused and ashamed that I got mixed up in some dumb butt cult trying to take over my mind. All I heard from my boyfriend was “you have to do this.” The programme isn’t about changing you, it’s about your $$$. Chances are you will feel good afterwards and transformed. But the effects are temporary. You will experience depression after that, and boy if you’ve never known depression before you will then. The training is designed to make you feel incomplete unless you do more. Then you are pressured into bringing in other people. The idea is to cut you off from your existing network of friends and family and only associate with people met at the training, and this is classic cult behavior My ex thinks he is a better person, but the only people telling him are his new friends who didn't even know him before. Those of us who have known him prior are very creeped out by the tilt of his head and look in his eyes these days. The recruiters/enrollers tell people to "trust the process". Well, tell me about the process! No, that means you don't trust me, is the response. What will they do for you? Alienate you from friends and family and empty the $$$ from your bank account...what I am seeing watching someone else who is drowning. These trainings are psychologically brutal and they make sure you sign away any legal right for repercussions because they will affect your personality for a while. Does depression, loss of self esteem, loss of productivity at work and loss of interpersonal relationships sound like a fun reward? The whole event is a remarkable use of what could subtly be called brainwashing techniques. The staff uses several means to mentally pressure attendees to agree to whatever it is the staff is saying. Apart from having these classes intensively over a weekend which for working people means little to no sleep (I think this is a key technique they rely on) they start off with the classic approach of asking the entire group to stand up if they "give their word" to follow various ground rules. These included attending ALL of the scheduled events, NEVER being late, no eating/drinking in training room, no drugs/drinking while going through the workshop etc. Well human beings never want to stand out in a large group so herd instinct says "stand up with the rest of the group"... however... having done so everyone has psychologically given the leaders "power" over them. How? Well several examples were illustrated over the weekend. As a very basic example, people who got into the training room even 5 seconds late were asked to stand in front of all other people, given a microphone then asked: "you gave your word to be here" "you got here late" "so you are not a person who keeps your word?" no matter what the person's response was ... the staff would continue to pound the individual ... "again I say you were late: " you gave your word" "so are you are person who does NOT keep your word" well ... what were those people supposed to respond standing in front of a room of strangers...?? "yes I am a bum and was late and you cannot rely on my word" ?? This was just mental brow beating as far as I was concerned. There was much about the training I found troublesome. There was NO one on the training staff who was a Psychologist or Psychiatrist, no staff technically qualified to deal with the very real issues some of the people had of rape, abuse as a child, etc ... AND the fact that BEFORE the training everyone was supposed to sign away ALL legal rights to sue Kairos for ANY reason or to hold them responsible... I wasn't sure this place was qualified to deal with some of the personal issues being raised. Yet people had paid their $$$ and were expecting some help. Truthfully I did not see anything presented that everyone I asked did not admit they already knew... the problem was that everyone I asked agreed that they just did not practise those personal traits. I also question "where does all the $$$ go". Being a non-Profit Kairos is required by law to file an IRS form 990 each year detailing expenses & income AND provide that IRS form either onsite when requested by the public or provide a copy if requested by the public. Well 5 weeks ago I requested this IRS filing from Kairos and asked that they either mail it to me or send a scanned copy via email. To date I have NOT received either. So my next step is request this directly from the IRS which I can do for $10.00. Imho... if its such a damn great transforming "process" then why aren't they trying to reach as many people as they can at no charge AND if it affected your life so dramatically... then ask for a donation after the training?? So if you are bent on changing your life... my advice would be to save the $$$ and just make the same commitment to work with your family, work with your church or work with other organisations that are out there doing good work. You will find that just as fulfilling if you truly follow through with the commitment you make to yourself or those you really care about. Many folks say Kairos Foundation sucks and is purely evil. I can’t go that far. I am sure there are those who go through this training who find it a life changing event... but those same individuals might have found the same enlightenment if they had dedicated 35 hours of their life to any cause. | ||
| Anonymous |
To above poster(Sun Feb 8) VERY WELL SAID! I hated the term "trust the process" that just means - turn off your innervoice, turn off your common sense. I felt betrayed by my husband who told me that I just had to try it - but said he couldn't tell me details because I wouldn't get the full effect of the "exercises" if I knew ahead. If I knew what that did ahead of time I would have thought it was a cult and would have been able to make an educated decision to not go -This and other programs like it are deceptive, self-serving programs. This program influenced my husband so much that he abandoned me and his other family(parents, sister) and would literally jump through hoops for the leaders and new friends. My husband went through the "leadership" program - He now lives with his parents, doesn't have a job, he is just a shell of who he was. We are now in the process of divorce - He thinks he's a better person and has great friends through the program - some leader, eh............. To poster( Sat. Feb 7) I detest these programs - I did go through Basic and Advanced - I moved on and saw the truth and my husband went further and got sucked into the program(he's the blind one) I am moving on and doing something with my life. Im sure you and other converts will just say that I just don't "get it" - but whatever "it" is. I don't want it. I am happy with my life - even after what my husband put me through - I'm stronger for it. | ||
| Anonymous |
Isn't it amazing how may people there are who are posting concerns about Life Training? It just makes you wonder how many more people there are out there with the same concerns but just haven't discovered this way of expressing them! All of this information is extremely important. If you already have had an experience with this group, share it here. Your story may prevent others from being enticed by Kairos Foundation’s professional looks and their promises to empower you and make your life better. What I notice about my boyfriend (he is into Life Training solid via his sister and I can't dissuade him) it is all about SELF. But I was raised by parents who said contrarily that life is all about helping others ...not yourself. Ok that doesn’t mean forgetting about self but it means keeping a balance. It’s that lack of a balance that ruins the relationships that posters keep talking about. I really 'got it' and left. If it was ever about personal growth, that was not evident to me. It was about money. At least, that was how I 'experienced' them. Everything was oriented to getting you to get everyone you know to join the seminars. It was always the answer even if the problem was money. The argument for the poor was that they will learn the money making skills they need, and if they cannot afford to take the course, well, they simply were not ready to do 'whatever it takes.' Yes, the poster who said if they were genuine they would invite donations after rather than money upfront has a very good point. Life Training tell everyone "you can't get 'it' unless you come and participate for yourself". Don't believe their lies. You can get 'it' by hearing from others what they have experienced during their participation. It's all written up on the net and has been documented in professional and other studies as well. Research on the Kairos Foundation has shown that it creates a very strong placebo effect. Any success which one has in life after involvement is automatically attributed to KF and not to the individual’s hard work, talents or the fact that the person was successful in the very same situation many times before. There is no study to suggest that there is a direct connection between one’s Life Training participation and success, which may follow. It’s just a really great business set-up and at the expense of those who so often can least afford it. Their aim is to create a very strong euphoria in its participants then getting them to share that euphoria with everyone they come in contact with bringing in more and more money and potential recruiters to bring in even more. Most participants learn of it through the recruiting efforts of friends and family members who were Life Training graduates. The excitement is just that and nothing more. There is no substance to the experience and one does not learn anything at the Life Training seminars that they could not gain from reading a book or from a conversation with a stranger. Such wisdom as they do impart, and undoubtedly there is some, is basic and known by most 4th graders. If you are looking for deeper advice on any area in life you can speak with my 11-year-old daughter. And she doesn’t charge or pressure you to come back for more or to bring your friends and family. If you want to be suckered into attending expensive seminars, bearing your soul to strangers, taking advice from leaders who do not have certification, go ahead. Pretty soon you too will be harassing all your family and friends to come to "an introduction." You will genuinely believe it is for a good cause...to help change their lives for the better...but ultimately, it's more money in the pockets of the founders. Save your time, money, and dignity by reading popular self-help books instead. Although Kairos say that the training is educational rather than therapeutic, the promise of a rapid cure for various issues is unmistakably an attraction to participants. Thus, an important motivational basis of the training is the expectation that dramatic change would occur. The promise of "personal growth" is both nonspecific and unlimited. When I attended, as we waited for the workshop to begin, a high level of anticipatory excitement was created by the expectations of the participants, the mystery surrounding the training, and the laudatory comments of friends and family members who mingled with the group. As participants were finally ushered into the training room, Life Training staff and supporters applauded enthusiastically, indicating that something quite important was about to take place. This is a crucial process, since the unwavering goal is to achieve a total, unquestioning compliance with the rules from each of the participants. If participants are not willing to comply completely with the rules they are not allowed to continue in the training, they lose their money and their dignity. This process took the whole of the first night. The trainer explained each of the rules, and participants could ask questions or make statements about the rules and ask to be granted exemptions from a specific rule. In order to speak they must strictly comply with the rules, which means not speaking until recognized by the trainer, and then they must stand and speak through the microphone. Then, when the participant is finished with the exchange, the other participants must applaud. This is the general procedure for the large group share exercises, which go on throughout the training. The trainer never grants any exceptions. Some participants were abused, degraded and humiliated during this procedure. The trainer cursed, called them derisive names, attacked their personality, attacked their body language, made fun of them. Most of the participants were scared to question what was going on. Primarily, the trainer would maintain that their specific question, disagreement, or concern was irrelevant to him and was an indication of their poor psychological functioning. In fact, he interpreted their attendance itself as an admission of guilt: “You're here because your life isn't working. Your life isn't working because you're scared shitless of committing, just like you're scared shitless right now of committing to the rules." Audience responses were managed in a way which reduced the ability of participants to think critically and simultaneously inflated their self-esteem. In order to speak, participants had to stand, be acknowledged by the leader and speak into a microphone. The audience was to applaud after the person finished speaking, presumably indicating support for the "risk of sharing." The experience of having to speak before a large group, hearing one's voice amplified and being rewarded with applause was undoubtedly useful for those fearful of public speaking. However, since the applause was mandatory, it was not an indication of the quality or coherence of participants' comments. The trainer acknowledged as valid only those audience responses which confirmed or illustrated a point being made. Over the weekend, responses came increasingly to mirror the idiom of the trainer, and the applause became increasingly enthusiastic. This essentially distorted and magnified the import of what was being said, undermining reality testing. For example, midway through the training, one participant stood and announced elatedly, "I've got it!" Considerable applause followed even though there was no explanation about what he had gotten. What was rewarded by the trainer was compliance. Participants who offered critical comments or who suggested a different way of conceptualizing a problem had their statements dismissed, were subjected to abuse, ridicule or were confused with paradoxical logic. The "offender" (the term used by a previous poster favourable to the scheme) was generally maneuvered into some form of compliance before being permitted to sit down and receive the applause. An example of this type of interaction occurred on the first evening after a "trust" exercise. Instructions for this exercise were as follows: Participants were to mingle, and when eye contact was made with other participants, one of four comments was allowed: "I trust you ", "I don't trust you," "I don't know if I trust you,"" or "I don't care to say if I trust you." The participants were then to move on to the next person without further comment. After regrouping following the exercise, one participant challenged the implicit reasoning behind the exercise; as the exchange below indicates, his reaction was dismissed without legitimizing the rationality of the question that he raised. Participant: I'm not sure what this had to do with real trust. I mean, it's not an all or nothing thing like "I trust you" or "I don't trust you." I would trust someone with my car before I would trust them with my child, depending on how well I knew the person. Trainer: Are you willing to consider the possibility that you don't know what trust really means? Participant: (appearing confused and hesitating) Yes. Trainer: Thank you. You may sit down. (Audience applause) The trainer used a variety of techniques to neutralize comments which challenged or qualified the point being made and maintained sufficient control over audience responses to assure that critical thinking was not publicly rewarded. The use of confusing "double talk" was particularly effective in disarming those who threatened to delegitimize the trainer's position. Statements such as "What you think isn't is, and what you think is isn't," or "Well, what is the answer?" were perplexing enough to cause the participant to falter in uncertainty. The suggestion that the participant was disturbed, confused, "avoiding," or "game-playing" were other tactics used to discredit “offenders”. As the training progressed, participants become increasingly reliant upon the trainer to interpret reality. Defenses and the capacity for critical reasoning were undermined by both the structure of the training and the responses of the leader. After participating in a variety of regressive exercises, participants came increasingly to identify with the trainer and to share his power. Shifting from the emphasis upon submission and trust, the trainer suggested that we were totally responsible for all events, in our lives "100 percent accountable". In an exercise designed to illustrate the theme of "taking full responsibility" partners were to tell each other of an occasion when each had been victimized. Several people told stories about having been raped or having been abused by a parent as a child. We were then instructed to retell the story from a position of 100 percent accountability, in other words, how we "set things up to be that way". I felt that was particularly damaging. The idea of this exercise seemed to be to transform the infantile helplessness which participants had experienced earlier into infantile omnipotence. The subjective experience of liberation which accompanied this exercise seemed to stem from the sense of omnipotent control generated among the participants. The group was particularly vulnerable to this type of primitive reasoning because of the effects of the earlier training, the lowering of inhibitions, the extensive structuring of the environment and the undermining of critical thought. Phrases like "getting off automatic," "going for it," "taking risks," "taking responsibility," and "creating your own reality." took on an almost magical communicative power within the group. I could go on and on… The trainer cautioned participants not to look for the one right way, but then proceeded to explain the right way: "what you deny and avoid is what you are stuck with. Therefore, when you totally experience something, it disappears." Sometimes I think that this could have been a truly beneficial experience. Some of the things they say about not making excuses are useful. If this really was non-profit as they say, if it was open to the public (e.g. media, who are forbidden), if it was presided over by psychologists, social workers or psychiatrists, it might be worth something. Until then, I will continue to urge people to stay away. Freedom of the mind is the greatest freedom we have and we lose it at our peril. | ||
| Anonymous |
Where does Life Training take place? | ||
| Anonymous |
Worldwide - see website wwww.lifetraining.org | ||
| Anonymous |
Last week I had to attend an inquest to give evidence. I don’t know whether you have the same in the USA but here in the UK these are investigations into unusual death circumstances. Sarah, a friend of mine with whom I went on the Life training weekend killed herself. Her car was found abandoned, and she had hurled herself to her death off a cliff at a beauty-spot. She left a note in the car: "I attended a course called Life Training. I was brainwashed [and] my emotional centre of the brain was killed/turned off. I still have feeling in my external skin but my internal organs are rotting. I am sorry…I didn't know I was already dead. May we persist into the future…No need to search for my body." I attended the same training and Sarah discussed suicide several times that weekend. I thought that was out of character. It was reported repeatedly to the leaders, but they said she was just trying to manipulate people for attention. They sought no help from any mental health professional. A consultant psychiatrist told the inquest “The stress and the way the courses are structured may make people who have a tendency to have a psychotic disorder have an acute episode.” It worries me that the leaders just don’t seem qualified or prepared to deal with psychological problems that can surface during the training. | ||
| Anonymous |
Don't be worry - let's do something! Yes. These organizations employ brain manipulation. Yes. They lead to depression for people who are manically depressed or have acute psychotic issues - they will get worse. I was in an advance training group and a man pulled a knife on us (me) after the leader berated him for coming 3 minutes late into the workshop. He was paranoid schizophrenic. They caused his condition to worsen. These places are not a joke or just a harmless life improvement course. They ruined my relationship with my significant other and they turned someone dangerous against me. Let us start a non-profit organization to see legislation to fight these companies. | ||
| Anonymous |
I saw how they manipulated my husband and fed on any weaknesses they could find. He abandoned me emotionally and physically - he is just a shell of the man I married - I basically lost him and we are in process of divorcing now - but worse than that...... he doesn't have a job (not exactly looking too hard either) and is back living at home with his parents. It's heart-breaking for me to watch him get so royally screwed. He came home a "changed" man. Yet he couldn't think of anything that he had really learned. But he thought it was “very rewarding” and I just “had to go” on the next course….. Their website says that “The main skill taught in the training is the ability to shift your state whenever you choose, and encounter the vision of life this gives rise to”. Balls. | ||
| Anonymous |
The previous poster talked of start a non-profit organization to see legislation to fight Life Training. I think there is a lawyer co-ordinating a group legal action – does anyone know the contact details? I’ve been through the Life Training Weekend. I stuck it through to the end, tried to get a refund because it was crap, but was refused as they said I was a “fucking shitmonger”, but no matter I’ve still got my critical thinking faculties. The secrecy stinks. Participants are forced to promise not to tell non-participants what they learn in terms of contents or methods. They can’t respond to routine questions from friends and partners, such as, "What did you learn today?" or "What's going on at the seminar you are attending?" This is to distance the participant from ongoing relationships, to shutdown communication with friends and family, and strengthen a common bond with the other secret-sharers. Reminds me of the trick of child-abusers “don’t tell anyone else, it’s our little secret”. Participants are misled into feeling guilty for being a "promise breaker" if they talk about their personal experiences to outsiders. It also prevents the participant from getting any feedback about what he is experiencing from people in the outside world, some of whom probably care about the participant very much. I’m so glad now I broke that promise and took the abuse for it, as getting some outside comment helped to restore reality. Much of the content has a ring of truth. It uses psychology theories, tips for greater efficiency, gimmicks to impress others, and other notions that have already been widely publicized in seminars and books over the decades - so this is hardly anything they can claim credit for. They present crass oversimplifications of psychological theory and of the human condition (eg "All anger is created as a result of a conflict in values") But my issue is not so much what they teach, rather, how they teach it! To teach a child that the element on your stove is hot these people would place the child's hand on the element rather then simply teaching with love and understanding. I told this to my mentor who laughed, "At least our way he would have learned immediately". I wasn’t laughing. Kindness is at a premium with these people. They are nice to talk to but behind all backs are crude and nasty remarks and attitudes. And then of course there’s brainwashing. Perhaps I and others are getting carried away over this but brainwashing has become understandable to the public after Jonestown, Waco and the “Heaven’s Gate” suicides. It is no longer the mystery it once was when Charles Manson and his followers entered the judicial system. Europeans came to understand the cult brainwashing phenomenon through the Solar Temple suicides in Switzerland. The Japanese were forced to confront this reality by the cult Aum, when it attacked Tokyo subways. Joseph Kibwetere sent shockwaves through Africa when he led hundreds of his followers to death in Uganda shortly after the Millennium, once again demonstrating the power of cult mind control. And isn't "brainwashing" something Osama bin Laden used to transform his followers into tools of terror? The previous poster had a knife pulled on him at one of these seminars. So I just wonder… Maybe I just didn’t get it…. But I wants to know what I’m getting. Better be damned than dumbed…. | ||
| Anonymous (195.92.67.70) |
Why did this thread suddenly stop? | ||
| Anonymous (63.159.121.185) |
I must have been at a different training than many of these people... I took my time and thought about Life Training very carefully after going through the Weekend, and found the techniques quite useful to help me decide what I wanted to do next and how to do it. Yes, I ended up spending more money and doing more training but that was only to help me improve at using the techniques for my own ends and not because someone was pushing or pulling me. I went to the training nearly three years ago and I have made several changes in my life for the better. I am much happier and find the LT group as a whole very supportive. Certainly there are some skunks in every bunch, but not here anymore than the average group. Anyway, you get out of a course like this what you put into it -- did you think the Weekend was going to change your life on the following Monday? No, you have to do the hard work to grow yourself, and it takes a lot of time and effort, and some money too of course. If you didn't need help with something, why did you feel the urge to go to the Weekend in the first place? For those who lost partners, maybe your partner was looking for a way to leave you before they went to life training, or maybe life training helped them to see more clearly that the two of you were not a good match because you approach and experience life in different ways. I do feel sorry for the people who are now raising children by themselves, but that also happens to people who have not gone to LT ... | ||
| Joe (82.43.212.142) |
Hi guys, I'm a 23 year old from London UK and did the Life training last July. I had many of the same worries that have been discussed on this board and have done some research to find out the truth behind my worries. Firstly I found out that the training is done on a shoe string. It is all done cheaply on a non profit basis. The people I have met through the organisation have been some of the nicest most friendly people I have ever met, manipulative is not a word i would use to describe any of them. The founders have both got extensive knowledge concerning change, psychology and have backgrounds in Christianity - see http://www.kairosfoundation.org/p/x/foun/foundationhistory.html What did I get out of the training - specifically? Well I did also experience the buzz which has been discussed here immedialy after the training and it did go away a few days later. I think it came from the realisation that the problems which hindered me in my life could be solved and dealt with and since then I have dealt with several of them. - I think one of the main reasons people are very vague when it comes to what they got from the training is that it is so personal and private and to put them forward to public scrutiny isn't easy - at least for me the changes are the biggest i've made in my life to date. In this case i'll share one of them as i think it is useful for people to see what somebody has got from the lifetraining weekend course. I had a fear that I was gay and believed that it was unnatural for a man to be attracted to another man. This stemmed from my early childhood when my uncle continually would tell me that it was wrong to be gay and that 'i mustn't turn gay on him' Therefore in my day to day life when the subject of homosexuality was raised i'd get very nervous tense and embarrassed. On of the processes i learnt during the life training was to observe my beliefs and thoughts objectively. I discovered that i was sometimes attracted to men as well as women and that this was perfectly natural as the feeling of attraction which arose was natural. Since then I have talked openly with people other then those in the lifetraining about this and apart from not getting so stressed when the subject of gay is raised i feel much better about myself as well. I could of course have got over this fear without doing the life training but the point is that i got over it with the help of the life training. I feel sorry for those who have lost partners or friends, also for those who have experienced violence and other situations due to outcomes of doing the training. My view on this is that we all have dark parts of our minds - things we would like to forget - aspects of our lives we don't like but feel like we have to continue - thoughts which influence our behaviour in a negative way etc. When these dark areas are accessed it can be a very scary, intense time and can make people react unpredictably perhaps even violently. I hold though that from what i have experienced is that it is better for the problem to be on the outside - visible and hopefully faced then - subconcious, influential and negative. Although I haven't gone through facing anything major myself I have spoken to people who have confided in me and talked about facing up to traumas such as sexual abuse, physical abuse to other negative experiences usually in their early childhood. They speak of the way it used to influence their behaviour and how now they have been released from it having faced up to it. This is what life training does for people in my experience and i have only seen positive results (but then perhaps i've been brainwashed  ). Therefore i ask those who criticise the training to please be specific about what is wrong about doing the training. At no point did my ability to make my own choice get taken away from me - i feel like i was empowered to observe my thoughts and beliefs in a way i had previously been unable to do and have gained several positives from this. Although there are members who talk about lifetraining an awful lot and enrol other people to take the course i don't feel obliged to do this as i don't want my friends to feel like i'm pressuring them to do something. I also don't give them any money apart from the money spent on the course - i know others do give money but i don't judge them for it. they believe that the course can help others because it has helped them in a multitude of ways. Thanx for reading, look forward to some responses, believe it or not if i have been taking part in a destructive cult i would like to know about it as i don't want to destruct myself! If on the other hand i've joined a group (cult) of people wanting to face their fears with the support of others then i'm all for it. Joe x xiaobao_jd@yahoo.co.uk | ||
| strong mind (143.111.110.113) |
I agree with Joe. I took the Life Training and to say that it has been useful in my life is a gross understatement. I would enroll readers to ask themselves the following: 1) -- for those of you who feel that it is all about the money, where exactly do you suggest the money goes, considering that it is a non-profit organization? to my knowledge, it goes toward putting on new seminars. but if some of the rest of you have obtained new knowledge regarding this, please post about it. If the money indeed goes only into self-perpetuation of the program, who does this benefit bottom-line, if not the participants themselves? 2) -- Where are all the other proponents of the Life Training? Why aren't there more posts in favor of it? I believe that they are too busy supporting others, too self-secure to care what others think of their course, and too busy achieving results. (btw, S. Roberts, congrats on the resolve to go to the gym 3 times/week!) (And yes, I am aware of the paradox inherent in the fact that I myself am posting...) 3) -- those of you who think it is about "brainwashing", would you agree that your brain cannot be washed without your permission? If you didn't like the course, go ahead and say so, no problem. But where is all this resentment coming from? What is your purpose in objecting and claiming yourselves victims of this course? Did the course DO all these negative things to you? and if it is "the course's fault", where were you (where was your mind?!) while this was being done to you? As far as "warning" or "protecting" others from similar "brainwashing", why are YOU trying to tell or warn others about what they should or shouldn't do, what experiences they should or shouldn't provide for themselves in their own lives? My personal belief is that one should take the course with an open mind; I would support you in thinking for yourselves and keeping your brains "un-brainwashable" (throughout the whole course and for the rest of your lives), to observe and question for yourself, to not "let" things happen to you but rather to make conscious choices about what you choose to believe and do, and you will have nothing to fear. If you continue to do that in the rest of your life, then you will be exemplifying the whole point of the course, and applying it to a larger sphere. And that change will be THANKS TO you, not thanks to having taken the course. It only offers you some tools, which you are free to use or refuse. I am happy that I am using them. | ||
| strong mind (143.111.100.177) |
One more thing: to my knowledge, less than 2% of the people who take the course ask for a refund. (again, i refuse to believe that brainwashing is the cause of this. of course you could argue that my refusal to believe this is because i myself AM brainwashed. my best "defense" is to say that you are free to believe that if you want!) bottom line is that less than 2% of the people who take the course want their money back. also, i feel this course would be successful even without the money-back guarantee, so why does this guarantee even exist? | ||
| Anonymous (157.234.254.3) |
Dear "strong mind", We, the people on the outside see this happening to our friends and relatives. NO, they don't see the problems and issues, it is just like an addict, they don't have a problem do they,(?) they are in control of their lives, until they lose everything they own to this "drug" and have no support from friends or family. We see our friends and loved ones being manipulated and sucked into something that someone else (the dealers) are profitting from, correct? Of course it is great, it feels good at the time, then of course there is the real world that you have to go back to. I ask you, how many psychologists practice this type of counseling? I would dare to say, possibly none, probably because of legal reasons. | ||
| Anonymous (204.32.206.93) |
Gee, this Life Training sounds just like Landmark Forum, and just as dangerous, potentially. Sure, some good can be had -- my weekend spent at the Forum wasn't a complete waste of time -- but I would urge anyone to approach with caution! Retain your critical mind and reject anything that sounds unhealthy or dangerous, no matter what your group leader says! Your own health and best interests are your top priority. | ||
| Joe (82.43.212.142) |
Hi guys, Good to see some new posts after mine, I love healthy debates like this! To the first anonymous: Its interesting that you make the comparison from whats learnt at the life training to a drug. I found that working on myself is addictive (or maybe it was the benefit i was getting that was addictive).I'll give an example of someone I know really well who did the life training ages ago (bout 18 years) this person felt that she got a lot from the training and at the time tried to enrol my Dad who was close to her. My Dad didn't want to do it having lots of reasons many of them talked about here. She didn't take no for an answer however and continued to pressure my Dad to do it. This created a conflict between them that wasn't there before and is a sore point even to this day! From this i learnt that it can't be forced onto anybody and that even though the techniques learnt during the weekend have the potential for benefiting anybody who is willing to work for it, not everyone wants to find out if they will work for them. My Dad now i have taken the course knows that the life training isn't a destructive cult but a constuctive group. He still doesn't want to take the training and I respect him for it. I still believe he'd get a lot from it but i respect his choice, there are many different forms of healing in the world - medical, nutritional, psychological, physical the life training in my view is just one form of healing that like any other, works if you put the work in. The people teaching the course do of course make money from it, they are highly qualified persons, many therapists do the life training and after (I hope) careful judgement reccommend it to some of their clients. I would recommend doing some background reading on NLP (neuro linguistic programming) to understand how some of the techniques work. It is all legal and established forms of therapy. Question: Why do "they lose everything they own to this "drug" and have no support from friends or family"? (this looks scary - why did their friends and family not support them - my close friends and family seem pretty supportive and none of them have done the life training) In terms of a relation to the real world - yeah i get that one too, it feels like a very different world when i'm working with people from the life training, not always easy - especially when i'm working on my issues or helping others on theirs. This is however done in a very supportive environment and often for purposes of making life in the real world more fun. And it works - believe it or not! To the second posting, notice how you've judged the life training in the first line of your post, I suppose pretty much anything could potentially be as dangerous as the landmark forum - even though i've never done it... I've never done the landmark forum but would appreciate finding out more about it (maybe these cults are an addiction in their own right!! Maybe I can join all of them b4 i'm 30 (joke)). Appreciate your good advice at the bottom, and would even go as to extend it to the rest of yours and anyone elses life (in the real world as well as others). Still looking forward to criticisms of the life training which take the shape of saying how it is inherently wrong, evil, manipulative, destructive etc. Evidence rather then heresay. Wishing you all the best - tis sunny here in London an I gonna go out now an enjoy it! J.x | ||
| James (168.209.98.66) |
I notice that there are some postings on this web site by people who have been really hurt and others by people who have encountered some things that they really don't like. There are some things that really trouble me and, i'm sure, really trouble other people who visit this site. I feel very sad about all this because i have obtained very considerable benefit from of the Life Training Programme and continue to do so. I use the skills and tools that i have learned on a regular basis and continue to deal with issues in my life, many of which go back to childhood. I don't think it would be possible for me to overstate the benefit i have derived. However, i recognize that there are others who have had really negative experiences some of them tragic. I don't want to take away from these experiences. I don't want to prove them wrong. I recognize that one persons experience is their experience - i cannot have your experience. In the same way, i recognize that you cannot have my experience. Accordingly, i am not going to try and "sell" you or "tell" you my experience. I am also not going to try and find fault with other peoples experience. In fact, at a personal level, and i do not have any basis to write on any other level as i am not an office bearer of the Kairos Foundation, i find that if i try and put myself in the shoes of some of the writers, i can understand how some of these things may have happened and i can even understand how they may have drawn these conclusions. I do NOT agree with the negative conclusions that have been drawn in some of the postins on this site, i have experienced openness not secrecy, complete acceptance of all religions not a cult, healing of inter-racial hurt, a willingness to help, support for healing of relationships and many other positive experiences. I cannot prove any of this and i choose not to try. If you are visiting this site and thinking about doing the Life Training weekend i suggest that you consider both sides that are presented here and consider that the reallity might lie somewhere in between. The people who present the Life Training are nearly all volunteers, they do what they do out of gratitude for what they have experienced and for what they continue to experience. For this reason they do make mistakes, probably many more than most people would like, yet i have experienced them as sincere. Again, i cannot prove this. If you are a person who has had a bad experience, i accept that this has been your experience. I don't have any authority to apologise on behalf of the Kairos Foundation, but i choose to ask your forgiveness on their behalf. I have also taken note of the issues raised here and have directed a detailed email to some of the leaders of the Foundation asking them to take note of what is on this site and suggesting some measures to respond to many of the concerns and negative experiences raised here. I cannot offer any guarantees that anything will change. I am not in a position to do that. I do hold from personal experience that nobody in the Kairos Foundation wants to see people hurt in any way and i also hold that they do not consider themselves to be a cult and do not want to do things that cause people to judge them this way. I also know that their resources are limited and therefore their capacity to respond to information such as that on this web site is restricted. It may take time but i do believe they will do their best. If you are hurting and would like to see if someone can help you, you are welcome to contact me and i will see if i can put you in touch with someone who can assist. If you are considering doing the Life Training Weekend and have some questions, you are welcome to contact me and i will see if i can assist you or refer you to someone who can. James Robertson jamesr@infodoor.co.za | ||
| Anonymous (63.164.145.198) |
These life trainings are not therapy. You experienced a form of RET or rational emotive therapy. The experiences range from disastrous to nil. You probably did not resolve any personal issues or career goals from this that were not already resolved or on their way. These trainings bring in large money to private people. Figure it out. It's not for fun and free. They fact they can talk people into giving their time for someone's pocketbook is a testament to the severe effectiveness of the brainwashing. Please do not corrupt this site with pollyanna testimonials. Yes. People have lost loved ones and their livelihoods to these LGATs. That is why this site is up and why www.rickross.com who are non-profit operate to counter the type of aimless garbage you just wrote. These training companies are for profit. They use sophisticated group control mechanisms to acheive their result. Money. Not your well being. They will walk over your well being to get the money. Do not be a fool. | ||
| James (168.209.98.66) |
On Tuesday May 04, 2004 "Annonymous" at 63.164.145.198 posted, apparently in reply to my post with some statements that i experience as abolute and which do not accord with my experience and information that i have available to me. It seems to me that if someone has such strong judgments on an organization and claims to have such absolute knowledge and clear conviction that people are being harmed it would be helpful for them to give their name and contact details. I personally have difficulty with people who attack others annonymously in a public forum like this. I accept that there are people who have been hurt and i am willing to do what i can do to find a way for a constructive response. If you are going to post something negative, i would like to ask you to have the courage to put your name and email address on the post. Yours faithfully Dr James Robertson jamesr@infodoor.co.za P O Box 898, Randpark Ridge, 2156, Republic of South Africa | ||
| Anonymous (157.234.254.3) |
Dear "James" Please read the Dear People post dated May 6 on the A New Lifespring? The Legacy Center board. You get out of life what you put into it. You give good, you get good, you give bad, you get bad. NO PERSON OR ORGANIZATION can make a person good or bad, they choose to do that themself. | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
The person who wrote the last reply to "James" is an idiot. I am sorry. This type of stupid logic from "old sayings" is type of nonsense that masks the tragic effect LGATs have on innocent people. Guess the Jews in WWII Germany did not put enough good into their situation so therefor the worst was handed to them. Point is: Mind control has a devastating effect on people. Some more than others. The more desperate and innocent, the more dramatic the toll. Please read the Margaret Singer book on these cults. Check www.rickross.com for more help. James, I am sorry this person responded with such garbage. Nobody goes into these trainings wanting to destroy their lives. But that is what happens from the twisted way these group therapy techniques are applied. | ||
| Anonymous (139.133.7.38) |
This is not a forum to proselytize and promote these organisations. Beware it is not hijacked for this purpose. I note that those who are pro life-training tend not just to describe their positive experiences but also shove in the 'quick-sell' by adding that they can put you in touch with the organisation eg. 'James'. How about listening to people's concerns? | ||
| James R (168.209.98.66) |
In reply to Anonymous (139.133.7.38), May 06, 2004 - 04-39 p.m. You write "How about listening to people's concerns?" I have read read what is posted here, and i have noted many concerns and i AM concerned, DEEPLY CONCERNED! That is why i wrote on Thursday May 4 "There are some things that really trouble me and, i'm sure, really trouble other people who visit this site." I further wrote "I have also taken note of the issues raised here and have directed a detailed email to some of the leaders of the Foundation asking them to take note of what is on this site and suggesting some measures to respond to many of the concerns and negative experiences raised here." Accordingly i do not understand why anonymous (139.133.7.38) says that i am not listening to peoples concerns. Having read my post again it seems to me that perhaps i did not express this clearly enough. Accordingly i would like to say again that I AM DEEPLY CONCERNED and i am doing the best i can to take note of the concerns expressed here and respond to them in a constructive manner! I personally see the feedback on this site as important and valuable and as warranting constructive positive response and action. I am really open to hearing from people who have had problems and seeing if anything can be done to assist them and also in order to better understand what can be done to prevent such situations occurring again. James Robertson jamesr@infodoor.co.za | ||
| Anonymous (157.234.254.3) |
Dear Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 03:19 pm How do you compare the Jews in WWII???? They did not have a choice to be put in the situation they were in. People have choices in life, and yes some people need help getting out of situations they chose to put themself in. THIS WAS THE INTENTION OF MY MAIL. People do have a choice now. YES, people who are desperate and innocent need support, but they also need to be told the TRUTH, and with the truth be supported in a positive way. When you are going to professional counseling you are there to accept the truth and learn to deal with it, correct???????? My post was not intended to harm or hurt anyone, my intent on the post was to get a message out. Obviously, you decided to take the post in a negative way, perhaps, maybe someone else will read it differently and it will make them think and or see things differently. Yes, you are correct that there are people in this world that are stronger than others, but being negative and throwing names out to people(such as you did)is certainly not supporting the situation or the persons involved. Your calling me an idiot for posting "MY" message, should I consider you an idiot for posting your message, just because I may not agree with you either?????????? | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
The Jews in Europe during the War did not have a choice. The Germans who supported this attitude and roundup did. The analogy to the trainings is that once you are in the trainings, you made to feel you do not have a choice but to "sign-up" for the next level. You are made to feel you have to bring recruits in. Through social control mechanisms much the way the Germans controlled their civilians, you are made to feel that your life depends on meeting the exectations of the training's leaders. Anyone who negates the horrible effects of group control techniques employed by non-professionals for the purposes of money - well, you are less than enlightened. And if you play the fool in denial - well, that is an idiot to me. | ||
| joe (158.94.0.20) |
I have done the life training, I have not "enrolled anybody" to do the training since doing the training myself, nobody makes me feel guilty for not bringing more people to do the training as I choose not to for my own reasons and they are good enough for me. People come to do the course in my experience after talking with people who have done the course and them saying how their lives changed after taking the training. It is based on psychology in my opinion - pop psychology was what it was referred to in an earlier posting, I didn't know how to use psychological techniques to help myself before i took the course and after taking the course i do now. I don't feel inclined to do anymore courses - there is no pressure from them to make me other then the occassional mail telling me what is on offer - I can believe it or not unsubscribe from this mailing list. i haven't adopted any religious ideals or worship the founders of the organisation after taking the course - they are people just like me I have helped people work through mild problems of their own with the psychological processes I learnt from the life training - and have seen people confront large fears they've had all their life and come out the other side stronger, The reason I'm writing on this message board is not to enrol anybody on to the course - just to present the truth of my experience alongside other peoples experiences that have been written here, joe_duncan_uk@yahoo.com | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
Joe. I too have taken the courses. They do not administer any techniques that can be used with others. They forbid you from telling others what happens in the rooms. The techniques are all RET methods (Rational Emotive Techniques). Designed to elevate your anxiety level, generate an emotional release. This is when you are most the vulnerable to suggestion. If this were a gas pump exchange where you automatically succumbed to their techniques and goals - they would not just make millions - they would control the world. It does not work 100% effective on all people. Some it has a mild effect (negative) or nil, some it is disastrous. But check this board and www.rickross.com and you will see that "some" is quite a lot. Also, the trainings vary from company to company. Legend, Forum, MITT, Lifespring, Landmark, Sterling. They all have varying degrees of sales pressure. In Los Angeles MITT, uses extreme sales pressure in a closed room on individuals who are brought to the room by a friend or relative to sign up for the "basic". I am a mother of two who has participated in this training and lost a great deal in finances and family. There was pressure to do more courses for me. They told me my "life depended on it". They were not professional people teaching these courses. They were charismatic and they were persuasive. But I found out they had no credential in therapy or psychology. They were basically con artists. One leader said he would give his personal "guarantee" that this training would help us. He never put that in writing and he never gave his address of contact. And they constantly told us not to tell anyone what happens. I felt good for a couple of weeks, then I felt depressed. Now I feel ruined because of the degree these people interfere with my life. | ||
| Anonymous (157.234.254.3) |
Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:38 am Everyone in life has a choice, sorry you do not see that. We are in a decade far from the War in Germany. In fact, people have MANY more choices today. There are many social control mechanisms in life. Do you have a teenager? What about peer pressure? Do you watch TV? What about adverstisements on TV. What needs to be understood is that yes people do "fall" into these types of organizations, but they have to come to the realization on their own, through positive support, that ultimately, you have to help yourself and love yourself, no one can give that to you. I was in an very abusive marriage, knew it was not healthy, but could just not come to bring myself out of it until one day it just hit me. My family, friends and loved ones were not the ones to remove me from the situation, I did it, when I was ready. I speak from experience, to call someone an idiot only shows your lack of realization to the real world. | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
Nonsense. If you have really taken these trainings. I have done all three levels. These are not situations with mild social influences. These are highly controlled rooms situations. I have a psychology background and the room situations represent what we used to perform social experiments at Stanford. If you witness the horrible deception employed by these training owners to feed one's ego and thirst for growth while taking your pocketbook and feeding the suggestion that you will not succeed in life unless "you give it away" which is code for "bring people in". In my opinion, anyone who defends this obviously greedy ploy to make dollars off people's dreams - is either a party to this enterprise (works for them) or is just stupid. At least in WWII, they could tell who the "bad guys" were. They wore uniforms. Today. They dress in suits and look like everyone else. They are the hidden cults in America. Read the book. That's all I have to say. | ||
| Joe (82.43.212.135) |
While I can respect what has been written I still cannot accept a few points that have been made, First point - the founders of life training are trying to make money from others expense: Yes they do make money - they developed the techniques and developed the training, is it not fair enough that some of the money goes to them? - I have met one of the founders and maybe i'm just not a good judge of character but this guy was one of the nicest most compassionate guys i've met, Second point - the effects are mild to nil - negative, I have seen it in action - working and helping people through their problems, yes people change - but the people i have talked to in their perspective have changed for the better - not due to 'the life training' but due to working on issues in their own lives with techniques learnt at the training. I understand how my mind works better then i did before and am able to work through problems, and have done so, I understand how beliefs and so on affect how i am and that i can change them if i want to and am willing to put the work in, I don't need the life training or any of the other courses to do this but it did take them to teach me how to use them in the first place, Again - I do not pay any more money to the kairos foundation - or feel inclined to take any more courses - I also do not judge people who choose to do otherwise, To Anonymous (4.46.47.158), I feel for you - I really do and I am sorry you have not had the positive experience I had, I am convinced that the people I have met in the org would frown upon what was said to you, I hope things pick up for you one way or another, Taking the life training is a big step in anybodies life - and shouldn't be taken lightly - the benefits can be enourmous but I wouldn't claim that its been easy - and as you can see from the message board it hasn't improved everybodies life that have taken it - read around talk to people the http://www.rickross.com I have read a little of and am sure that it provides important information - I just wish it was a little more accepting of the benefits that people have had from doing the training and understanding of what it is the training is trying to help people to do, all i'd say is read around and get perspectives from different opinions and then take a choice. other sources you may find useful include an introduction to NLP by Joseph O'Connor or read what some other people have written about their exp http://www.moretolife.org/p/x/cou/ltw/responses.html, - If you are not convinced that you would be able to maintain your powers of choice in a training room then i absolutely encourage you to not take the training. If on the other hand you feel you want to work through destructive patterns of behaviour in a supportive environment then take the course or find out more about it. Feel free to e-mail me anyone who wants to - I'm a 23 year old student of sociology from london and have no ulterior motives that i'm aware of, - (I also like to think I'm not stupid) Best wishes, Joe joe_duncan_uk@yahoo.com | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
Joe - you oversimplify. It sounds naive. Are you really in London? Anyway. The techniques were developed by EST, Werner Erhard 20 some years ago. They are based on Scientology and his own military, hard sales mix. The guy who founded Lifespring, Handley, is a jerk. Most rich people who have mastered the art of making millions can muster a "nice" face. The person who owns the training company in Los Angeles is not nice. Mean. Vindictive. Cannot even speak english. Do not be a fool, Joe. It's all about the money. There are no cost of sales. None. No advertising. Promotion. The people who recruit are doing it for free (to save their lives, remember?) The only cost is a room with chairs to rent and a high priced trainer who is a psychological "hired gun". Someone who can deliver heads to the next phase of training. I have seen these companies pressure people who are about to lose their rentals and be evicted to give their last dollar to the training in the name of your life depends on it. You are not stupid. Just naive. People who go in successful were already on the climb, leave the same. People who are spiraling, tend to go down even further. They work differently with different people obviously, but they are designed to get one to feel that paying for all three trainings and recruiting bodies for free is the basis of their life. By the way, they make millions on millions for this. It is obscene. As are the people who run them. Erhard (not real name) lives offshore and collects a royalty for the techniques used. He is a scumbag. Read his biography. | ||
| Anonymous (68.34.205.76) |
I am blown away by some of the posts about the Life Training Program! As a cradle Catholic and now practicing Episcopalian...and a student of the Life Training Progam...I have got to tell you that my learnings in this program have enriched my life as a Christian woman. Although none of the courses I have taken with the program have focused on religious viewpoints or spiritual practices, I have used what I have been taught in the courses to help me get off my judgements and of others and myself and to truly know what the word "forgiveness" means. Interestingly enough, FACTNET's mission is primarily about preserving freedom of minds...and so is the work of the Life Training Program! Since taking the Life Training Weekend, I have truly been able to forgive my ex-husband and myself for what went wrong in our 16-year marriage with two children. Before I took these courses, my mind was locked up with resentment and fear. No longer. I am now remarried, have a successful career, am very connected with my birth family, am involved in my civic community, and I am happy. I regret that some folks have had a negative experience related to Life Training, but I do know that the program is about freeing peoples' minds from what binds them. Perhaps this explains why some choose to move on from relationships that do not support them after they have taken the training, I don't know. I do know that I have never witnessed abusive tactics or ridicule in a training or I would be the first person to leave! I also know that I have been asked to donate time and money because the foundation does operate on a shoestring, but I have never been pressured or made to feel guilty when I have not...and MOST times I have not. Although I am behind the mission of FACTNET to expose mind control cults, you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. | ||
| Joe (82.43.212.135) |
I concur, Thanks for letting us see how the life training has helped you as well, its appreciated. By examples people maybe will begin to see the benefit that people have had. I also do not know anything of mind control cults which Anonymous (4.46.47.158) does but i do know some things about the life training, I know that I wasn't aware that I was on any spiral up or down, I know I discovered some destructive patterns of behaviour some of which i've had all my life I know I saw how they hindered me in my life and I know after working on them my life is easier, I am hereby willing to go and do my best to find out how the money is distributed after the payment is made (just because I'm a nice guy and have a lot of time on my hands) - I have also been told that the org is run on a shoe string, I will do some research and then relay my results to the group. K? In meantime I'll read Erhard's background and some stuff on what you said - thanks for the info, If you want to read some stuff on the founders of the life training its at http://www.moretolife.org/p/x/foun/foundationhistory.html I'll keep trying not to be a fool ;) and yeah I'm in London really! | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
running on a shoestring? That's why the Lifespring in Los Angeles was buying commercial real estate. These trainers make 100G + a year. There's big bank in making people feel good for 4 weeks. It's mental heroin. Yes. Read the books about Erhard, Margaret Singer's book CULTS IN OUR MIDST. | ||
| Joe (158.94.0.20) |
Dear Anonymous (4.46.47.158), "running on a shoestring" I was relaying what was said to me, if it was false I intend to find out and will relay what I find here, unfortunately I have my end of year examinations over the next week but will investigate when i get time afterwards. I know nothing of Lifespring but I accept that it is possible that abuse could play a part in these groups. People can be vulnerable when they share there deepest fears and there are people in the world who may try to abuse this to their own advantage. I simply hold that this has not been my experience with the life training group in any way shape or form. I will however do my best to investigate what happens to the money I have spent and the claims that the group is run on a shoestring and report back. I did my training almost a year ago now and although the buzz left after a few weeks there are areas of my life which I have noticed massive improvements - the life training didn't give this to me - I did this myself - the life training taught me HOW to do it - it may be POP psychology but the point is it works and was (in my opinion) taught well. Joe | ||
| Anonymous (4.46.47.158) |
Make this simple: Want to know how much they make? Can you use Excel? Figure the heads in a basic x $375 x how many basics you guess-estimate they do a year. Deduct a few grand for the trainer and a few grand for the room. That's the only cost. Then do the same with advance. Guessestimate the numbers for advance are proabably 70% of basic but the price goes up to a grand. Leadership is a grand as well. But they get you to recruit then. Figure 30% of advance goes to Leadership. Pop psychology? This is not "Dr. Phil". You ignore that these are emotionally dangerous techniques to expose a raw vulnerability in the participants so they can be molded. You cannot get some life changing behavioral change in 3 days, 5 days or 3 months. What you can get is: brainwashsed. | ||
| Anonymous (139.133.7.38) |
Joe and 'anonymous' on May 10 both refer to 'Lifespring', a different organisation to LIFETRAINING. Is this a comparison or are you confusing the two? In response to my short message of May 6, James (May 7)does indeed show his deep human concern for any possible harmful effects of the group experience. The message was not aimed at you personally James and sorry if you felt offended or misunderstood. The request to 'just listen' applies to us all in order not to turn a blind eye to genuine distress, IF it is a consequence of exposure to a particular 'training'. | ||
| strong mind (143.111.110.112) |
I am still waiting for someone to post with concrete evidence that the Life Training (yes, the Life Training and not Lifespring or anything else) is indeed NOT a non-profit. I find that until this evidence is provided on this forum, nobody has a right to make allegations about any ulterior or dangerous motives. I also would like to remind you that the Life Training offers a full refund to anyone not satisfied with the Program. for the sake of argument... EVEN IF there was a profit, what's wrong with that? If a particular program works, then the profit its inventors make is as fair as the fee you pay a language school or a shopkeeper. You are paying for a service. It's a business and businesses make profit. (What would disappoint me would be for an organization to FALSELY declare itself non-profit. So by all means, if you find it's not, enlighten me!) But to my knowledge the Kairos Foundation Life Training IS a non-profit organization, and until anyone gives evidence to the contrary, I will hold it as such. | ||
| Anonymous (80.5.160.7) |
I completed the life training program a while back and I think I have some benefits but then I'm still living with my parents and don't work so its not that life transforming. My main concern is with the set up of the volunteers who help on subsequent weekends. I volunteered for a while afterwards as did friends. I don't now as 3 females I knew were hit on by 'well meaning' volunteers. 2 of which were manipulated into sleeping with the same middle aged man. These training rooms I have seen to be a playground for the predatory male to find young vunerable victims. Once I saw what was going on it was sickening. It must be obvious to those with authority but no one seems to have any boundaries in place to protect the participants/volunteers. My 2 friends from the programme have stomach churningly sickening stories. yuck! | ||
| sensible (139.133.7.38) |
It may be that if these participant/volunteers stated that they thought they were being harassed they might be told that their reaction resulted from their 'mindtalk'. Yes indeed, yuk! | ||
| Anonymous (195.92.198.75) |
It is very refreshing to hear that other people are concerned about "Life Training." A very close friend of mine got involved with them a couple of years ago and now spends a great deal of money attending weekend courses, all over the world. She is convinced that they are great but is drifting away from her oldest friends. She does not appear to have changed, she is no happier than she was 2 years ago but is now unable to discuss anything without quoting ridiculous clichés learnt at the sessions, as if they are the path to fulfilment and truth. It appears she has spent a great deal of money for a handful of sub-standard philosophical catchphrases. It would be great to see her happy and if that means losing her friendship, then fine. But I am deeply worried that she is being used, abused and manipulated by nothing more than well tried and tested "mind control" techniques. If it was not so successful and harmful it would be funny, that in this day and age, methods that have been exposed and ridiculed since the early 70s and before, are still raking in the cash and screwing up peoples' lives. | ||
| Anonymous (195.93.32.12) |
Two colleagues of mine, whom I know to be very sensible people are urging me to go on the Life Training course. They found it very beneficial. | ||
| Anonymous (80.5.160.7) |
Why urging? whats so urgent about it? doesn't that ring alarm bells for you? Even sensible people get taken in. I find running beneficial but I'm not urging people to take it up. Its up to them. | ||
| Sue de Nym (81.106.173.108) |
I did the life training weekend about 13 years ago in London, when one of the trainers was Brad Brown. I was on team for the following one, in Cambridge, when one of the trainers was Roy Whitten. I did a few of the follow-on courses, but have had no involvement for 12 years. Doing the first LTW, the purpose of the disciplines was on the second day discussed at length and in depth. As best I can recall, this did not happen on the second LTW where I was on team. This may be down to differences in the personal approaches of the two trainers, or it may be a matter of what issues come up as different audiences 'kick off' in different ways. I have long regarded myself as a Life Training failure, in the sense that I do not have a dramatic success story to tell. Reading the accounts here, I now value the fact that for all my dissatisfaction and emotional frailties, I don't feel the need for anything like the Life Training or any of it's bolt-on goodies. My involvement finished when I had nearly arrived at the venue for some series of meetings I had signed up for - I can't remember what it was called - after a non-trivial train journey. I stood at the end of the street and reflected on the previous meeting, how false and insipid it had seemed, and how the people running it had tried to talk it up at the end and sounded really hollow. I turned around and went home. They never heard from me again and I never heard from them again. As cults go, its easy to get out of. I think Whitten and Brown were sincere about what they were doing. Of course, power corrupts and people can lose touch with reality when surrounded by sycophants who will work for no money. So what all the trainers today are motivated by is open to question. The training is likely to be distorted and corrupted in the passing on from trainer to trainer. Interestingly, Brown made a few comments suggesting that when it comes to delivering the Life Training, Whitten "doesn't know what he's doing". (Whitten wasn't there. Brown was talking about a phone conversation they had just had). I am not interested in promoting the LTW, but in my experience it is no more dangerous than seeing an NHS counsellor. One sure way to waste your money is to go on it just to find out if it is a cult. | ||
| Concerned in California (68.26.22.99) |
This is a total copy cat of *Landmark Forum*, formerly EST. They employ textbook mind control techniques including boot camp tactics and public humiliation. I got the usual high and then low from my Forum experience. They tried extensive bully tactics to try and get us to call everyone in our life who we ever had an "issue" with -- some forced catharthis to make you "come clean" with them and "recommit" to a healthy relationship. There was actually homework where they would follow-up with you intensely, and if you didn't call everyone on the list, (which you didn't realize you were generating as a "call up list" in some previous exercise) they would harangue you endlessly and guilt you into calling them during these guided calling sessions during lunch and break-outs. It was humiliating and a total violation of privacy -- not to mention was handled carelessly and with no real context for what would happen next inside of the can of worms such encounters will open. It is simply not the case that everyone in your life that you're not talking you should talk to! People were calling parents who had abused them to enter into "a state of acceptance and forgiveness." I can't say this strongly enough: this is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE AND NEGLIGENT MISHANDLING OF SERIOUS AND FRAGILE STATES OF PSYCHOLOGICAL VUNERABILITY. Revisiting broken relationships may be a helpful exercise in certain environments, but these HACKS are not trained, not qualified to deal with such things. People are ripe for abuse and manipulation of just about any kind once they've been put on this programmed "indoctrination-isolation-catharthis-stress-anxiety-reflection-humiliation-and-then-catharthis-again" treadmill. It is an engineered Design to get a roller-coaster like "high" out of the person, without any real follow up on the very serious issues that come up for people in especially heightened trance states and deep-trance inter-personal encounters. It is the same as any cult. It is also well known that these techniques produce high levels of adrenaline and endorphins, direct results of the intense physical conditions and disturbed biorhythms, and anxiety reaction to being "put on the spot" in public with your most intimate issues. These intense and addictive biochemical states can create an alternating rush/relaxation-pleasure cycle that makes you feel as if something tremendous has happened, which may have nothing to do with actual personal sustainable progress. The authoritarianism REGRESSES people to childhood, and gives the very dominating drill sergeants that lord over these forums total control over the people. Now watching other people in group formation yield control to the leader/s also stimulates ingrained and involuntary "Herd Instincts" which cause knee jerk compliance through alternating subconscious desire for reward (fit in) and fear of punishment (being singled out/kicked out). It's a well known mind control tactic and ANYTIME you use this type of COERCION it's wrong -- it's against your will *whether you know it or not.* That is the problem. Also it sets you up for being open to this kind of manipulation in the future. Whether we think we get anything out of these programs or not, they set us up to be mindless sheeple. If you're going to contract into a regressed state, where you knowingly allow yourself to be tranced back into your formative years and guided through a "Seeing" of what's really up in your head/life, do it in a controlled environment with professionals who know what the hell they're doing and with the conscious support of trusted family or friends. When supressed issues come up people can go through very dark stages, even become suicidal and often emotionally dependent on the therapy or therapist -- bc they now associate their emotional liberation with their counselor. This is a very normal transitional state. The patient-counselor relationship is held together by well established ethical standards of privacy and trust and an understanding of the complete vunerability this creates. (Similar ethical standards are traditionally in play between idividuals and clergy and in other forms of mentorship and counseling. In all cases, there is at least some formal background training in these delicate issues.) In this regressed state, where there is a sudden clearing, the "guide" becomes the parent figure, and we surrender our emotional vunerability and adult rationality to that "guide" in subconscious ways we're not aware of. Trained professionals understand this phenomenon well, and know how to support someone through the process and keep them from becoming co-dependent. These programs, and other untrained HACKS looking to make a buck or who simply get off on being in control of other people EXPLOIT this very natural and fragile human state without the participant's knowledge. The person becomes "high" (of course they do) and becomes addicted to this state and now identifies the group as the new family unit and source of their power. AGAIN, that's fine and empowering in controlled environments where trained Mental Health Professionals know what the hell their doing. I saw people at the Forum who were dealing with: drug addictions, food addictions, domestic violence, verbal abuse, suicide attempts, post-cult symptoms, prolonged grieving from violent death, post traumatic stress disorder, and numerous other issues like bi-polar disorder and chronic dissociation. I think anyone who has been adversely affected by this group or similar groups, personally or indirectly through a loved one -- should SUE. Bottom line is they trick you by using well understood and legitimate psychological techniques for understanding the psyche (AKA "self improvement" "motivation training" "life coaching" "discovery") , which certainly work, but really should be practiced in a professional setting with highly trained and experienced staff. People seeking this experience should try support groups for a healthier and more legit environment. NUMBER ONE DANGER IS 1) THERE IS NO PRESENCE OF MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS -- AT ALL. 2) THERE IS NO LEGIT MENTAL HEALTH EVALUATION BEFORE PARTICIPATING 3) THE TRUE NATURE OF THE EFFECT ON YOUR MIND IS NOT DISCLOSED 4) THERE IS NO ONGOING PROFESSIONAL MENTAL HEALTH FOLLOW UP after the initial inculcation and Boot Camp Experience. 5) THERE IS NO PROFESSIONAL MENTAL HEALTH FOLLOW UP TO HELP RELATIONSHIPS HEAL AFTER THESE EXPERIENCES which are profound and life altering. This should only be undergone as a *Process with Long Term commitment* not as a hack weekend to get an emotional high. People leave these sessions and often in a manic moment may leave their spouse, children, job. These major life decisions need careful consideration and shouldn't be made after a Weekend with Landmark. Breaking away may indeed "save someone's life" but come on! Get real help, in most cases people are so high from the experience they want to push away and alienate anyone who isn't a True Believer -- and so they run away from anyone or anything who casts doubts on their newly discovered "self" or who might be forcing them to truly communicate. These organizations know this happens, they let it happen, and they take ZERO RESPONSIBILITY for it. It all comes down to massive sleep deprivation and other known mind control techniques practiced on people who have no idea what they're getting into, with untrained facilitators who are the SS of the self help movement. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Concerned in California (68.26.22.99)- very well summed up - I went through this kind of training with MITT in Los Angeles - My now ex-husband got very hooked on the trainings - my red flags went off right away - These groups are very dangerous and can seem to negatively affect many lives. | ||
| Concerned in California (68.27.171.163) |
Dear Anonymous (198.81.26.106), I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm infuriated by the lack of accountability (to use their own term) in these organizations. If a pharamceutical company, a medical clinic, a university, or a day care acted in this way they would be taken to court without deliberation. Indeed, many similar CIA and military experimental and interrogation mind control programs have been shut down and made illegal on the basis that they were inhumane, traumatizing people without their knowledge and against their conscious informed will. There may be some appropriate use of these techniques in guarded situations -- perhaps in criminal interrogation, or in some cases therapeutically under full disclosure. But in this setting, in my opinion, it amounts to irresponsible exploitation. Their failure to openly discuss their techniques (and critiques) in thoughtful, professional debate is another "cult hallmark." I would like to see more legal resources public and private be organized against these rackets. I hope that you'll find some solid support right now, I know you must feel traumatized by all of this. I posted another thread (9/9) in the MITT section, toward the bottom. I have had contact with Steve Hassan who is a counsellor and expert in coercive groups and mind control, though I have no affiliation with him -- you might find that helpful. Details about him are in my other posting. After that posting someone else has written a great note about a lawyer who has successfully taken on these orgs. They post his letter there about how dangerous they groups really are, in very specific terms which are easy to understand. It's a good resource to bookmark. Good luck and thanks for telling your very personal story. It seems that not many people really believe how serious it can be until it happens to them. In telling your story maybe it will keep someone else from finding out the hard way. -Concerned in CA | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Thanks Concerned in California, Hopefully more people will read these BB boards before just jumping in head first into these manipulative traps that these LGATs set. The mind control and manipulation tactics that they use are very unethical and should not be legal. People should have legal recourse to sue for damages. So many people are mislead when signing up and you are very right about these groups NOT being accountable - they think they are above the law - giving them some kind of "god" complex. One of the many red flags for me was reading their release form - As we got deeper into the training, the word "cult" was screaming in my head - they want you to blindly release them from any damages before you even know what is going on - If I knew what kind of exercises they would have us do - I would have NEVER agreed to sign - They don't want you to use your brain - forbid you have your own original thought. They just want to "create" mindless pod people who "enroll" others at any cost. Down with MITT, and others like them........ :-( | ||
| Concerned in CA (68.27.171.163) |
Couldn't agree more! Good luck with your situation at home, those of us out here in cyberspace are thinking about you. -Concerned in CA | ||
| S. Balfour (160.36.195.121) |
I have been studying the program from a observational co-participant perspective for my doctorate. I must say that this group is not about cults or mind control. It is about not beating yourself up for things that are beyond your control and for finding good in yourself and others. We are as human beings not that different. It is about looking at the truths in your life, for which only you can be the judge of your own experiences. Everyone in life experiences things differently and I can respect that this may not have been the best experience for some people. I can definitely see that some are not open to learning about themselves...it can be too painful from a psychological perspective. Such reactions could happen from a training class, watching a movie, or having a conversation with a friend. I have found in my own experiences that most of the time I was not connected with people. Whether this be at work or church or school. I was not always real, but giving people what I thought they wanted. After talking with friends and family, who by the way, have not taken the training, that they also felt this way. I found with this group that most individuals are real. They expose their vulnerabilities to learn about themselves through sharing and dialogue. They are each individuals that hold onto their own beliefs and values for what is real and true for them. It is an individual thing. For those who are opposed to self-reflection, dialogue, and experiential learning, then there are many schools of thought and well respected scholars that you would also be disagreeing with. I suggest you look at Peter Senge, Donald Schon, Chris Argyris, William Isaacs, Margaret Wheatley, David Bohm, Kenneth Gergen, John Shotter, Rom Harre, to name only a few. These are well respected people that use many of the self-reflective and dialogic techniques in their practice. Those individuals are not just scholars, but do sell their books for profit. There are also the areas of Action Research, Collaborative Learning, Collaborative Inquiry, Existential Phenomenology, etc. that could provide some insight to the practices that the Kairos Foundation uses. Also, those who teach the courses are usually practicing licensed psychologist. I consider myself neither naive or ignorant and would be more than happy to share my own experiences. The Life Training, now called More to Life, is not for everyone. I can say that there are different ways for everyone to express themselves and some people are very private. I am not ashamed of who I am or what I stand for. That doesn't mean that there aren't other perspectives out there or that the frame through which I see life is the "right one." Each person must look at that for themselves. I just wish people would be open to seeing different perspectives and opening their own frames. I cannot understand things I have not experienced, but I can say I am open to learning from different experiences. I am open to living my life to the fullest and until I examine what is holding me back in my own mind, I am not able to experience the joy that life can bring. It was Socrates that said, "The unreflected life is not worth living." Rather than posing what some of you see as "facts" for why the LTW did not work for you, you might want to ask yourself the question another way. What about the LTW did not work for you? What was your experience? Life is about noticing...noticing yourself, others, the world, and understanding that they are really not separate. If you think this is a matter of being a cult, then I also suggest you brush up on your philosophy. Some suggestions would be Merleau-Ponty, Socrates, Heidegger, Hurrserl, Wittgenstein, Voloshinov, Bakhtin, Vogotsky, to name a few. I assure you nobody is getting rich off this Foundation. It is mostly supported by volunteers who see how this has helped them in their own lives. Just like I would share my favorite book with a friend because I want them to share in that experience. I would suggest to many of you who are looking at this as a cult to really look at yourself and why you feel it is necessary to hold onto that belief. I have studied and looked at cults and other world religions and I again assure you this is not one of them. Shalane | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
To above poster - I call it as I see it. I am merely reflecting on what I experienced. There were good points given about self-reflection - however it was spoiled by mind control and manipulation. Lies are often wrapped in truth. Sure they want you to think that they are not getting rich with this - Do the math. As long as they have "free advertising" and bring plenty of people to enroll - they are fairing pretty darn well - there were about 40 in my advanced course - @ $800 Do the math........ I am open to different experiences - but when my red flags go off - I listen. It's called common sense. You ask "what about these LTWs didn't work for us?" Read the above posts and the posts from MITT and Landmark Forum and others. I have posted many times about what didn't work for me. If it worked for you - great. However it doesn't take away from the fact that there is mind control abuse going on in these training that is negatively affecting many lives. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
To above poster - I call it as I see it. I am merely reflecting on what I experienced. There were good points given about self-reflection - however it was spoiled by mind control and manipulation. Lies are often wrapped in truth. Sure they want you to think that they are not getting rich with this - Do the math. As long as they have "free advertising" and bring plenty of people to enroll - they are fairing pretty darn well - there were about 40 in my advanced course - @ $800 Do the math........ I am open to different experiences - but when my red flags go off - I listen. It's called common sense. You ask "what about these LTWs didn't work for us?" Read the above posts and the posts from MITT and Landmark Forum and others. I have posted many times about what didn't work for me. If it worked for you - great. However it doesn't take away from the fact that there is mind control abuse going on in these training that is negatively affecting many lives. | ||
| S. Balfour (66.191.241.183) |
Dear Anonymous (Sept 15 @ 11:50), It sounds to me like you have some issues with anger and judgment. Also, playing into the victim role might be a common and what you see as enjoyable experience for you. I call it like I see it. Only you can be the judge of that though. People that are looking to assess blame and project that onto others will find it eventually. It could be an ad, a movie, a conversation, almost anything that acts as a catalyst to make someone do something drastic or to change their lives. It is an individuals choice in how they see that event and what it means to them. We are our experiences, but even IF two people were to have the same exact experiences throughout life, they would both see them differently. This training isn't about mind control and manipulation. It is about getting you to think for yourself and to take ownership for your own life. Many people don't really want to do that because they see going through life assessing blame elsewhere as easier. Judging others to make yourself feel better is the way most of us go through life. Taking responsibility for our own thoughts, actions, behaviors, assumptions, & judgments takes a great deal of work. I apologize for not separating you from the other anonymous posters to this site. I do have a question for you & if it not to much of an imposition, please clarify. What exactly do you think is mind control and manipulation? What is it exactly that they do that makes you believe this? Second, why is it you believe they do this, if it were true? What is their purpose? As for making money, I am an expert in not only training programs, but finance. So, I CAN do the math. It is easy to assume that you may know different. The amount that is charged for the courses covers the facilities, the trainers, and the basic logistics to hold the classes. Actually, those fees do not even cover that, people make other donations to help support. Any non-profit organization is going to also have to have a few people that work full-time to support, therefore they have salaries that need to be paid. I would be happy to address any questions you may have for me. If you would be kind enough to answer the questions above, I may be able to clear up what is obvious to me as a misconception or an assumption that really has no basis. Sometimes things appear one way when we are looking at them cockeyed. I am also open to the possibility of trying to see this through your eyes and understanding why you may believe the things you do. That can only happen through sharing our experiences and opening dialogue. Respectfully yours, Shalane | ||
| VERY Concerned in CA (68.27.232.213) |
Shalane: You're playing blame the victim and using "group jargon" to boot. You blast anonymous and other people who have not had positive experiences with the group as though something is wrong with them-- suggesting they are, as you say, "not open to learning about themselves." That is the kind of condemning mal-adjusted passive aggressiveness that most people attend these classes to learn how to avoid in themselves and others. You know nothing about anonymous and are not qualified to make that judgement, and yet you're saying that the poster is "being a victim" and then hypocritically saying you're "open to seeing things through (their) eyes." You don't sound like you're in information gathering mode to me, you sound like you're "coaching" someone you don't even know. Many people share anonymous' point of view. I am also a professional in the Sciences and support enthusiastically non coercive therapies but this is not healthy bc it is not fully disclosed to any participant what the methods and effects are. The general welfare of the public is at issue here, even if some people get something positive out of it -- as a business practice there is not sufficient evaluation of participants, professional mental health training of the staff, or proper follow up. If even one person has a mental breakdown bc of these techniques it's unethical and a public health hazard - and this has been known to happen, one study I read cited 12% of the time. As a professional and PhD canditate, you should be concerned with the protocols and practices generally, plus the documented effects, whether or not YOU consider it mind contol. Telling the above poster that they are somehow addicted to blaming other people is unprofessional, irrational, insensitive and unscientific. Let's say -- even *if* it were somehow true, that in no way justifies LGATs' undisclosed and unmonitored use of these processes and the harm that has been done to many people. A responsible, caring, professional organization with "integrity" would care about these things, and work toward an open objective conversation with the attendees, the media, and the medical health community. They say it's "not for everyone" -- but without full disclosure and proper mental health evaulation techniques the participants are neither properly selected out by the org - nor can attendees self-select themselves out bc they don't have any idea how serious this can be and what can happen to them. Certain surgeries are also "not for everyone" but the doctors don't knock you out and cut you open and say "well why did you come here if you didn't want it! You should have looked it up on the internet to evaulate whether or not you're a candidate for angioplasty." And on the topic of mind control -- DO YOUR HOMEWORK. I am appalled that a PhD candidate who knows proper research technique would go off in such a holier-than-thou hubristic half-cocked style and not complete even the most basic of background research to inform yourself. There are literally hundreds of links in these many threads on LGATS extensively explaining, by experts and the founders of these orgs themselves, the uses of well known thought reform and coercive persuasion techniques. (I think anonymous mentioned that above.) These tactics and groups date back to the 50s and 60s, during a famous movement brought about by Berkeley trained self-help pundits-- that is, a close knit group of pschyologists experimenting with mind control, LSD, political prisoner manipulation, hypnosis and regression. There is well documented material from both sides explaining the use and abuse of these processes, no one on either side denies the employment of these techniqes. Also there is a significant body of clinical case studies on just how these psychological tactics work, and what the effects are. There is an appropriate use of these tactics and an inappropriate one. In these cases with LGATS the means do not justify the ends. Mind control is very devisive and is played like a trojan horse, wrapped in the camoflauge of absolutely true "self-discovery" techniques and well known understandings of the human psychology. Maybe you got something out of it because you are new to therapy or particularly well adjusted to such experiences. But if 12% of the time a particular drug hurts people, or kills people, the FDA will simply not allow it's use. That's the point. Also misprepresentation by the group and institutionalized Information Control are of particular legal concern in these cases. For the record, I attended two Landmark Forum trainings, and two Curriculum for Life events. I had both very positive and negative experiences, but I still cannot objectively support any organization's unqualified use of these very potent and often deadly (and often misapplied) techniques. | ||
| Anonymous (216.77.41.249) |
BRAVO, "VERY Concerned in CA" !!!! VERY WELL PUT, INDEED!!! | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Shalene, I am only stating what I experienced. There is some good material regarding self reflection. I do have a problem being misled into a program by a loved one or someone we trust. "What exactly do you think is mind control and manipulation? What is it exactly that they do that makes you believe this?" I have written lots of examples on this BB. These are just a few: When I completed Advanced course - I decided that I didn't want to go on to "leadership" boy did I get the cold shoulder from those who chose to go on - not only that, the whole group ganged up and on the few who were not going on. There was ALOT of pressure. Any answer I gave was not good enough - Talk about circle arguing. The woman who runs the LA group literally chewed me out and barked at me - "how dare you - your life depends on it" "how dare you stay oridinary" can you say..... intimidation tactic? Screw them - I was being true to myself. My life is anything but ordinary - Thank God. I saw the group and the leaders rip my husband's attention and sense of responsibity from a marriage and friendship. If my husband's group didn't get enough "enrollments" they were assigned to very stupid stunts - such as going to a bar dressed as a woman and sitting in a man's lap - wearing a pink clown wig for a whole week - going to a park dressed as a clown to entertain a certain amount of children - they call it "integrity" I call it hazing and loyalty testing. He didn't seem to care that these stunts could get him A. beat up or B. Arrested. Any free time we had together - they would call and tell him to "enroll" - I got dropped like yesterday's news - I was pissed off at the time - sure, naturally. Am I a victim? - HELL NO. Am I more informed and educated from this experience? - YES. It saddens me to see my husband be so dependant on what these "leaders" told him and directed him to do - He became a reminant of who he once was - He was mislead by a "friend" It is not a choice when we are not given viable information to make an informed decision. I don't regret going through the training. It makes me realize that I am stronger than I thought I was. I just know better than to give my mind and will to such programs - I I went on with my life and am making the most of it. I just don't believe that we need to have others tell us who we are. If we can't figure it out within - we are in trouble and we open ourselves up to the people and groups who will take advantage of that. I am more than happy to share my experience if it will help people know that there is another side to these programs. I am not judging or looking to blame - To me, some things are just wrong. | ||
| S. Balfour (160.36.193.206) |
My gosh, that sounds unbelievable. This has not been my experience at all in Knoxville. I am very sorry to hear of those experiences. There should be some accountability if those things are occurring. Have you or anyone you know contacted the corporate office? There should not be any peer pressure or such manipulation. After hearing that I can understand why you would have such a bad taste in your mouth from this. My experience has not been at length since I took the training over a year ago and then was not involved at all. I never was pressured by anyone, nor was I contacted. I went back to be on team because I wanted to do an observation...not for psychology as "Very Concerned in CA" assumed. It was acutally for looking at the organizational structure and the culture...not a derivative in this instance of cult. The situation you mention in CA absolutely would infuriate me. From what you are sharing from your perspective, I can understand why there would be such a negative perception. I am wondering if we should throw the baby out with the bath water though. I mean that there are places where that does not happen. It sounds like there are individuals in certain locations that are not being socially or relationally responsible. (Which as a side note, I do not use their "Jargon" whatever that may be. I consider myself to be a social constructionist, so hence that is where the language derives from...my own paradigms about worldviews and perspectives.) So, anonymous, thank you for sharing those specifics. Seriously, I can honor your perspective. I am glad to hear that you are not allowing yourself to play the victim as well. I was probably seeing from some of the entries posted that people are not taking responsibility for themselves and their own thoughts. We usually see things we want to see...good, bad or indifferent. I am not "indoctrinated" or controlled. I just believe that all sides should be explored and not to stereotype or "label" something when it might not be accurate as an "all or none". I hope that makes sense. As for "Very Concerned in CA". Well, a couple points I would like to make. It is not a matter of being "right" but just a little bit of clarification. 1. The jargon you accuse me of using has nothing to do with the Life Training. It has to do with my own knowledge and experiences. English as I would like to call it. They are words that people use across all kinds of disciplines and if some overlap then...well, it is because there are not other "coined terms" that are specific to that discipline, but general words that are used as language to descibe the things themselves. 2. It sounds like you only have experience with Landmark Forum based on your response. Just as I have pointed out that different locations may have different experiences and cultures, it sounds like so do different programs. I am not educated or experienced with Landmark Forums. I heard something briefly many years ago that from what I recall was not positive, but I have to say...that I don't know. So, if you are refering to LF and trying to generalize that to another program, I think you might want to reconsider that. This is how we as a society get into problems with labeling, stereotyping, and generalizing. 3. As to your statement: "I am appalled that a PhD candidate who knows proper research technique would go off in such a holier-than-thou hubristic half-cocked style and not complete even the most basic of background research to inform yourself." I guess you see what you want to see and no amount of dialogue or reason would get you to see where it is I am coming from. You must know everything. Talk about being holier-than-though for making all kinds of assumptions about me, my discipline, my studies, etc. Just goes to show what you know. As for the last person who posted, thank you for being open enough to share. I am sure those experiences have been very painful if not shocking! This is the type of dialogue I was trying to get into. It looks like I was not successful at first try and will reflect upon my own actions and intentions as to why it was not bringing about those results. I guess I am drawing some conclusion from this and please correct me if I am wrong. I welcome different perspectives and thoughts to inform my own understanding. I am seeing this site as not one to open and engage one another, but one in which some individuals are looking more to bash something in general terms and looking for others that can empathize. I just stumbled across this site, not something I was looking for, but out of curiosity looked into. I was appauled by what I was reading because it was so very different from my own experiences. I believe I came off inappropriately by believing that everyones experiences MUST have been like that which I witnessed and participated in. Boy was I wrong. I thought people were looking at some of the theraputic techniques for self-help from a totally warped perspective. This is exactly the reason for my inquiry. The reason I asked about specifics and what happened. How others saw mind control. What you described Anonymous sounds like such manipulation. I must say that if someone said or did anything like that to me I would pull out my "Julia routine" from Designing Women. Nobody deserves to be talked to like what you described. All this self-help should not be about recruiting or enrolling others or about manipulation. So thank you for clarifying and sharing and showing me that I cannot assume that everyone's experience would be like mine. I guess it goes to show that people are human and one person over a group, organization, etc. is not like another. Different locations run the groups very differently with different experiences AND results. | ||
| Anonymous (198.81.26.106) |
Shalane, "Different locations run the groups very differently with different experiences AND results." Very true. At this point I choose to just stay away from it all - I do agree that both sides should be discussed to make an enducated decision. Unfortunately people only get one side before entering most of these trainings. Even after my ex went through MITT - he desired to go through Landmark Forum thinking that there were more "tools" for life and success that he missed in MITT. My question is: where does it end? I actually accompanied him to the Forum guest event - He was invited by a "friend" who offered to pay for the course - aaaaaaaaaaaaaah I was trying to hold on to what was left of my husband - this in NOT what I needed - More "zombie" training. I kid you not - the "graduates" of this Landmark Forum(Monterey, ca) looked like deer caught in the headlights - only with a strange smile on there face and ready for some good circle arguing - starting the conversation with - So, what do you want out of your life that you are not getting now? They tried to separate my ex and I into separate rooms - to make a long story a little shorter....... I got us out of there - QUICKLY. On the other hand - I know a lady who is Landmark Forum instructor - very nice woman and doesn't try to recruit me or lecture me into joining. If something works for someone and it doesn't infringe on other's - then great - keep doing it If it doesn't work - find something else that does as long as you don't lose yourself and your purpose. | ||
| Anonymous (66.81.156.124) |
Life Training sounded like est, but is much more dangerous. Skip Life Training! Brad & Roy havin't a clue as to what they are doing. I can't believe these two are still at it with their BS. Their 'Processes' stink and are unworkable. It's just a bunch of yelling & screaming signifying nothing but emotional destruction. Reject anything that these two old farts say. What, they don't trust people enough to train some trainers to lead their Lifeless Training? When Brad & Roy finally croak, they'll be waiting in line to cash their checks right behind L. Ron Hubbard at the 1st National Bank of Hell. the end | ||
| Anonymous (66.191.241.183) |
To the above "anonymous"...you need some serious therapy and anger management. Ugh. A little introspection would do you some good it sounds like. | ||
| Anonymous (66.81.153.48) |
Life Training by The Kairos Foundation IS A CULT. | ||
| Anonymous (66.81.149.146) |
The circus is in town! Step right up, 'cause it's Amateur Night in the Large Group Awareness Tent! We have your meditating exercise, singing and holding hands and an intense 'eye' contact exercise which required you people to look into each others eyes for 45 minutes! This is of course is TR squirrel Tech from Scientology. The Way of a Warrior? More like Way of a Dupe. We have your Information Control, Thought Control and Emotional Control! This course is used as an indoctrination and induction into the Kairos Foundation. It's (Give-up your) LIFE (to the Kairos Foundation) TRAINING. Yes-sir-ree, step right up...fool. | ||
| Anonymous (82.68.21.251) |
I've just got back from an introduction evening on a course called The Power of Self Esteem, i went to support my fiance who is currently having some issues i guess. The course leaders seemed ok, it was a bit too "thank you for sharing" and i could almost feel a group hug. I'm trying to get some hard facts about The Kairos Foundation and found this site. What i want to know is, basically, are they safe? | ||
| J (82.43.213.250) |
Are they safe? I can only talk from my own perspective. They can be pretty scary at times - working through events which happened to me when I was much younger, talking about things which I find very difficult and scary to talk about, it has however been very useful for me, I understand to a much greater degree how I think and why I act in the way I do. Yeah I hate the group hug vibe that is common in these circles, I do however observe that a lot of people who haven't had this kind of support before in their lives get a lot from it. Here in London there is a large network of counselors and therapists who make themselves available to people who want to take this work further. This support network allows people to help each other explore themselves for free after they have taken the weekend and learnt the processes. The power of Self Esteem is a great course in my opinion. In it I learnt about how and why I demand more of myself and how this impacts my quality of life. Is it safe? Your original question. I recommend you talk to people in the flesh - psychotherapists (outside the training) and people who teach the training. In my experience people involved in the lifetraining are very open, honest and want to answer any questions you have but hey, maybe you'll have a different exp. Hard facts? Ask some hard questions and see what comes up. As you can see from this discussion board there is a variety of opinion and a lot of positive and negative experiences of the life training. Good luck. | ||
| Anonymous (66.191.241.183) |
I can also talk from my own experience about this group. I recently attended a training where there was the "group hug" vibe. I was really concerned about this because it was not something I wanted. I questioned some of the people there about it and asked what the mission was. Was it this all is great in the world, peace, love and happiness. They said that was not their goal, but part of it was to make everyone, including themselves feel like it was a safe, trusting space where people were honored and respected for their lives and experiences as well as for them as individuals. What I later realized, for myself, that this was a way these people knew to recognize one another and not be judgmental. WHen someone is battling their past and the negative ways we look at ourselves and the world, I think the last thing someone needs is for another to look down at them in judgment. That wouldn't exactly feel safe for me. So I had to think, how would I make it feel safe and establish an environment of trust without giving off that feel of "group hug". I haven't found anything yet. At first it was difficult for me to take in, but then I had to ask MYSELF why. I discovered for ME that it was 1) hard to receive acknowledgment without discounting myself and 2) I was not usually around people who listened to me without judgment. If you have ever been to therapy before or counseling then you will see that you normally get that same type of feeling. Our society isn't about creating safe places for people when we are all so involved in the rat race. Thing is that I do believe we all have things to work through in our lives to find ways to enjoy it more. I would agree with the person who posted above. Inquire into it. Things like this that are self-help are experiential, you really do have to experience them yourself since it means something different to everyone. Nobody has had the same life and even if we did, we would still see it from different perspectives. Some people may not be ready to explore their own lives, regardless of the "self-help" format. I would really say, have your own experiences and be your own judge. Also, keep in mind that this site is probably not the place to gain facts, but opinions and beliefs. To me there seem to be some pretty passionate people posting that are limited in their perspectives. It is like anything in life, there are many different viewpoints. Seeing something from many different perspectives can be quite an experience in itself. Good luck on your quest. | ||
| Anonymous (69.19.180.166) |
No they are not so safe. Be wisely careful of this group for your own well-being. Beware. | ||
| concened_citizen (concened_citizen) New member Username: concened_citizen Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.65.67.221 |
From "Concerned Citizen" LOOKING FOR FACTS? To "Anonymous" who posted on Oct. 13... you say that "this is probably not the place to gain facts, but opinios and beliefs." Well here are some hard facts for you... which, incidently confirm a lot of the "opinions and beliefs" that are posted here! The information below is documentation what goes on in LGATs ("Life Training" most definitely falls under this category!). The author, Dr. Margaret Singer was one of the top experts in this field! Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D. was a clinical psychologist and emeritus adjunct professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley. She received her Ph.D. degree in clinical psychology from the University of Denver, and she was a practicing clinician, researcher, and teacher for nearly fifty years. The author of more than one hundred articles published in professional journals, she received numerous national honors for her various research work, including awards from the American Psychiatric Association, the American College of Psychiatrists, the National Mental Health Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, and the American Family Therapy Association. Singer's major area of work--how people influence one another-- grew directly out of her undergraduate and graduate work in speech and psychology, and the study of cults has been a special area of her research. Over the years Singer has counseled and interviewed more than three thousand current and former cult members. (So does that qualify her as having the "facts"?) Below is an excerpt from "Intruding into the Workplace" (from the book "Cults In Our Midst ") by Dr. Singer. "Having observed a number of LGATs and having interviewed many persons who attended variants of these programs as part of their work assignments, I am astonished at the gross childishness and unkindness of humiliating anyone under the guise of education, experiential learning, or the claim that participation in such travesties enhances work performance. Nor do all participants find sessions of "sharing" personal details helpful. Because of the popularity of training programs and seminars, countless employees are sent to courses thinking that they are going to learn management techniques or specific job-related skills. Instead, they find themselves in high-confrontation, psychologically intense programs that are supposedly going to transform them—not just train them but literally make them over into a new breed. What Goes On in an LGAT? On federal court orders, I have attended six large group awareness training sessions (sponsored by est, the Forum, Lifespring, and PSI World) and have interviewed dozens of persons who have attended these and such other programs as Silva Mind Control, Actualizations, and Direct Centering, as well as the myriad of other programs now available, some started by former employees and even, on occasion, attendees of the larger well-known LGATs. I have studied the training manuals and videos used to train trainers and have interviewed a number of trainers. I have also served as an expert witness for various persons who sued corporations selling this training. These persons, or their survivors, alleged in civil suits that they had been harmed by particular programs. Therefore, the lawyers in these cases asked the court to order the corporations to permit me and another expert to attend the relevant programs as observers, sitting in the back of the large hotel ballrooms or other facilities where the training takes place. Because most of these programs are made up of highly scripted, standardized procedures, seeing one unfold gives a good picture of the processes and the attitudes of the trainers, as well as some experience of the group process that occurs when 250 to 300 people are being psychologically and emotionally aroused into becoming, on occasion, sobbing masses on the floor. The other expert and I needed to view and study the training the plaintiff had attended and form an opinion whether any connection existed between the conduct and content of the training and the alleged damages. These damages ranged from death by drowning and suicide to both brief and prolonged stays in mental hospitals. I have kept track of the individuals involved in the nearly sixty legal cases in which I was a consultant. Some of them have gotten their lives going again, although with the fearful recall of what it was like to completely lose mental and emotional control. A few are still hospitalized as long as ten years after their breakdowns during or immediately after the training. LGAT programs tend to last at least four days and usually five. They are described as seminars and sound very much like special college courses. The highly confrontational and psychological aspects generally are not mentioned beforehand. Nor it is mentioned that a whole new theory of how the world works will be inculcated in attendees. The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it," trainers advise. This means be vague about the actual content and provide glowing endorsements telling others that the training turned your life around, but do not tell them how emotional, dramatic confrontational, and unnerving the sessions can be for some people. Because of this promise, consumers who buy and attend these seminars do so without information about how psychologically. socially, and sometimes physically stressing the event can be. The following outline description is a composite of what goes on in the course of many LGAT sessions. Based on my attendance at several LGATs, consultations with former attendees and trainers, and my research, it also reflects my professional interpretations. Day One Day one is usually devoted to demonstrating the leader's absolute authority. The leader, often called a facilitator or trainer, immediately takes control of the setting with a demeanor that suggests he is a powerful, in-charge person and no one is to challenge what he says "This program works," the trainer proclaims. "It's all up to you to obey and get the maximum benefits." He remains totally in charge, acts knowledgeable, and is practiced in verbal skills, so that he never loses an encounter. Anyone who challenges the trainer will be humiliated and verbally mashed. New customers are unaware that most LGATs allow or even encourage those who have taken the training before to reattend. These people serve as a claque or modeling section. They clap, speak the same jargon as the leader, make endorsing statements, and are models for the new customers to pattern themselves after. Because the returners talk the talk and walk the walk, they get good responses from the trainer when they make comments. New customers begin to pattern their language and demeanor after the behavior of these others who, they notice, receive praise for using certain language or revealing personal material. The leader trains the group to clap after every sharing, no matter how inane, off target, or incoherent it is. For many, it is heady stuff to have a couple of hundred people clap when they speak a bit to the group. At the same time, new customers also see how the trainer berates and decimates opponents. Day Two Day two focuses on instilling the new philosophy the LGAT is teaching. The well-known LGATs claim that you have caused everything that ever happened to you, from choosing your parents to breaking your leg, from getting yourself jilted to having been molested by your stepfather as a child. Trainers use the terms accountable and responsible, but not with their ordinary meaning. Trainers mean that you will, if you "get it," start to make your choices patterned after the way the organization advocates. They create guilt and fear in you that you have caused all the bad things that have happened in your life. "Your life is not working!" the trainer or leader yells, while he implies his is. If you just "get it," you'll be able to "make your life work." What they teach about how to get your life to work is that there is a magical thinking that allows you to create whatever you want. You are told that you can create parking spaces, money to buy the next courses, and so on. Since creativity is in, you create just by thinking. Day Three Day three is usually devoted to exercises, often trance-inducing guided imagery, in which attendees are urged to recall all the disappointments of life since early childhood. Exercises about your mother and father, the promises you've broken, and the promises to you that others have broken—all the sad memories of your life up to now are brought forth. By the end of the third day, participants have been opened up psychologically. Day Four Day four is one in which much group sharing occurs, and the leader begins to change from the stern, domineering taskmaster into a seductive, charming, loving daddy or mommy who wants you to buy the next courses. Legal cases have revealed that trainers' promotions and even their very jobs hinge on how many of those in the first course they lure into purchasing the next courses. Day Five Day five is one of lightness; there is dancing after rest room and lunch breaks. Much effort is put into getting you to sign up for the next and more expensive course. All participants are told to come back for a posttraining meeting with the company staff, where again a great effort will be made to sell subsequent courses. At the end of the day, a surprise is staged, with friends and family unexpectedly appearing to congratulate "the graduate." The Impact What can be upsetting to certain people in such LGAT sessions is that, in these four or five intense, exhausting days, they become flooded with more emotion and conflict than they can handle all at once. Up until this time, they've handled their lives in their own way, but at these training sessions they've had to look at their entire past, in a brief but enforced way. This is quite different from psychotherapy, for instance, where the therapist and the patient progress more slowly in order to allow the patient to deal with whatever she or he wants or needs to at a manageable pace. If they had known ahead of time the intensity and psychological depth of some of these exercises, many have told me, they never would have bought or gone to the training. They had no true idea of the intensity of the situation, the effects of group pressure, or the personal fatigue that comes from LGAT sessions, and they simply expected an ordinary educational experience. Even though printed statements are now given out to participants by several of the LGATs and training programs, it is my opinion that these statements don't meet the criterion of truly giving the consumer full information about the intensity that will be experienced and about the potential surfacing of extremely personal past material. In California, for example, where residents have seventy-two hours to decide not to make purchases elicited by high pressure, people have more protection from door-to-door magazine salespersons than they do from being taken in and pressured by cults and recruiters for LGATs. I have included LGATs in this book because they represent forms of coordinated programs of intense persuasion and group pressure. I am not discussing here the many excellent skill-training, educational, and motivational programs that are used in business and industry for practical results. But apart from those programs, there are many training schemes that employ thought-reform processes that can harm employees and engender lawsuits for employers. They are a modern-day, corporate version of social and psychological influence techniques that make people deployable without their knowledge or consent—precisely my objection to cults. Buyer Beware, Thought-Reform Processes at Work Because of my involvement in psychological and medical research over the past fifty years, I have worked in a variety of hospitals, clinics, and universities. For more than fifteen years, I have served on the Kaiser Permanente Medical Institutional Review Board, evaluating and reviewing informed-consent procedures for all research involving humans that is performed under the auspices of the Kaiser Permanente system. I sat on the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of Medicine Committee to survey the effects of mustard gas and lewisite after a government testing program was revealed in which sixty thousand World War II military personnel were exposed to those gases without their consent. Data from this testing had not been made public until 1991. So I have been sensitized to fighting for and sustaining the laws that protect human rights in biomedical and behavioral research. The combination of these review responsibilities and my professional work with cult survivors has given me an avid appreciation for the need to protect and uphold the practice of informed consent. I am dedicated to individuals' having informed consent over their lives, their choices, and their beliefs, and I believe that employees have the right to know what they are being made to attend. This perhaps has made me particularly aware of how deceptive many training programs are. Thus I call attention here, as I did earlier in describing cult recruitment, to the uninformed state in which many employees and individuals are sent or go on their own to various training programs and work related or self-mprovement seminars. They learn what the program is about only after it becomes difficult to leave it. The primary barrier to leaving, of course, is that they might lose their jobs by offending the boss who sent them to the program and perhaps seems enamored of it. Yet in the examples just given, we can sense the devastation that can be wrought when employees are made to attend training programs that are not the excellent ones that exist for skills training and job-related behavior but instead are meant to "transform" (and in some cases recruit) employees for less than noble purposes. Religious issues aside, the pronounced psychological nature of many of the exercises within many of these programs is of concern. We cannot deny the fact that they grew out of the highly confrontational group therapy techniques introduced by the encounter, sensitivity, and large group awareness training movements. And in many ways, these psychological techniques are little different from the influence processes used in today's cults to achieve attitudinal change. This is apparent in the psychological and behavioral effects produced, and in the appearance of a certain number of psychological casualties during and after participation in some of these training programs. A further result is that the majority of participants experience varying degrees of alienation and instability because they are urged to give up old norms, goals, and ideals. They also suffer a type of culture shock as they try to reconcile pretraining values with what they learn in the training and with the realities of their posttraining existence. Importantly, a certain number of participants will be seriously harmed as these stresses precipitate a handful of psychological conditions, such as brief psychotic episodes, posttraumatic stress disorder syndrome, a variety of dissociative disorders, relaxation-induced anxiety, and other miscellaneous reactions including phobias, cognitive difficulties, and stress-related illnesses. In light of such consequences, the fact that most of these programs do not provide the skills training they advertise is the least of their problems. Unfortunately, the decision to buy a training scheme is often made on an emotional rather than a rational basis by an executive who is still high on his own introductory experience of the training. While some people decry the number of legal suits filed yearly in the United States, it appears that it has been the recent legal cases filed by employees and EEOC rulings that have given employees the hope that they have some leverage over the types of training programs they can be sent to. The hue and cry has not been over employees' finding themselves at authentic skills-training programs, but over their finding themselves at programs that impinged on their religious or personal beliefs and that did not train them for their jobs but that attacked and decimated their personalities and very selves. In short, lack of informed consent, use of hidden agendas, and use of various forms of coercion characterize the criticisms of both cults and certain modem-day training programs among those who have experienced them. Buyer, beware." To see the full article see: http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing13.html | ||
| concened_citizen (concened_citizen) New member Username: concened_citizen Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 12.65.67.221 |
MORE FACTS! From "Concerned Citizen" to "Anonymous" who posted on Oct. 13th. This is in reference to the "hugging" issue. You said, "I recently attended a training where there was the "group hug" vibe. I was really concerned about this because it was not something I wanted. " My answer to you.... You should have listened to your first impression and your instincts! Here's proof that you were manipulated!!! There was a study done of something known as "RC" (Re-evaluation counselling). See the text below that references the "hugging" issue! To quote: "This paper discusses the key theoretical ideas of Re-evaluation Counselling and assesses the extent to which some of these ideas could enable unscrupulous therapists to engineer artificial consent and impose their own belief systems on clients." "It is clear that the 'unconditional positive regard' at the core of much humanistic counselling can be manipulated by unscrupulous organisations into a form of 'love bombing.' RC is particularly vulnerable to such a critique, since many participants testify to overwhelming displays of closeness (e.g. hugging) between total strangers (Lyons, 1993). Evidently, participants in RC are expected to go straight from eye contact to body contact, vaulting effortlessly over all intermediate obstacles. This parody of intimacy is no closer to reality than what we find depicted in the romantic fiction of Mills and Boon. Such behaviours towards people when they are already highly vulnerable manipulates them into signing up for the entire RC ideology and experience, regardless of its real capacity to effect positive change in their lives. By encouraging people to engage in physical forms of closeness that would ordinarily be expected at a much deeper stage of relationship development, it is also possible that RC undermines the capacity of participants to assess the real levels of closeness in relationships within and without RC, thereby rendering them more vulnerable to manipulation." (See the full article here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/rc/rc1.html?FACTNet ) | ||
| infoguy (infoguy) New member Username: infoguy Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.113.31.140 |
this may not post well- hopefully you can read it.. here are the 2002 financials for Kairos/LifeTraining. It grosses about $1.5mm most years. Just because it's a non-profit doesnt mean they're not making lots of money off of you. Mission:EDUCATIONAL Programs: EDUCATION - CONDUCT PUBLIC FORUMS, PANELS, LECTURES, WORKSHOPS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS AS WELL AS OFFER COURSES OF STUDY AND PUBLISH PUBLIC INTEREST EDUCATIONAL SEMINARS. APPROXIMATELY 31 PEOPLE ATTEND EACH OF APPROX 69 TRAININGS PER YEAR, ATTENDEES BENEFITED FROM THE COURSES OFFERED BY IMPROVED SELF ESTEEM Financial Information Income: $1,689,103 REVENUE Contributions $654,484 Program Services $1,030,756 ... EXPENSES Program Services $1,708,820 Administration $204,017 Other $50,992 Total Expenditures $1,963,829 Total Revenue $1,689,103 compensation Scott Roy ($90k) Peggy Jarrett ($50k) Susan Oldham ($50k). bradford brown ($77k); $215k for 'contract labor'- trainers?; 900k on 'production costs'=$12k per session http://www.guidestar.org/Documents/2002/770/006/2002-770006571-1-9.pdf | ||
| mspark (mspark) New member Username: mspark Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.69.203.218 |
To All of You who have posted comments - Thanks: My name is Michael. I am a former minister/therapist, and now a CPA in public practice. I am also a volunteer group facilitator, and along with a full time liscensed professional therapist, work with a group of 12-15 men in our community who have been ivolved in family violence. I have been considering attending the basic Life Training course for some time. Someone very close to me is a trainer, and a liscensed professional therapist, and has been urging me to attend the basic course for over 20 years now. After reading every word heretofore of the postings on this site, I am really waffling. If you are interested in knowing why, please read on. 1. Contracts should be fair to all parties. The contract a LT participant is asked to make - after showing up and paying one's money - is unilateral in nature. One side blindly gives up its power to another, and can only receive a refund if one stays and sucks it up. In this day and age, I would not agree to anything without having time to think about what I am agreeing to, and asking questions of the other party. In this case, it appears that the LT participant is agreeing to a unilateral contract, which immediately puts the participant at a disadvantage. As a pastor, therapist or a CPA, I would never advise a parishoner, pattient, or client to consider anything like this. 2. If the course is so great, and so many of the trainers "guarantee" that one will enjoy a better life after having attended, why not be up front about the committment one is asked to make in attending? Why all the secrecy? Before corporate America took over politics and economics in the USA, this used to be known as a "deceptive trade practice." 3. It appears, based on what I have read, that one must agree not to sue Kairos, or otherwise hold them or their trainers accountable for their actions in the event one feels thay have been emotionally damaged or abused. I have never personally sued anyone for anything. Yet, if the participant must learn to be accoutable for one's own actions, why not the trainer and why not Kairos? Does the old phrase "practice what one preaches" come to mind? 4. Intentional or not, it is evident that some trainers have utilized shaming techniques - both in silencing participants with conflicting opinions and feelings, and in pressing some for continued involvement - a popular and effective sales closing technique. James Gilligan makes a compelling argument in his book, "Preventing Violence," that shaming - be it physical, verbal, emotional, financial, etc - is the root cause of all of the physical violence in the world. I would encourage Kairos, at a minimum, to take a close look at it's use of shaming in it's interactions with participants. If it cannot respond honestly to this question, and with some internal responsibility, irrespective of those who have enjoyed positive experiences, Kairos quite possibly warrants being classified with other cults. 5. Lastly, and most importantly for me, is I wonder whether or not Kairos has made any attempt to contact those who feel that they or someone close to them has been hurt by their process approach? Whether some just don't get it, some are not ready, or some just wimped out is irrelevant. I believe that inticing someone to participate, without full up front disclosure, and without full up front screening for such an acute and emotionally charged seminar is grossly and culturally irresponsible. Has Kairos demonstrated any empathy and compassion towards any of the respondents who have been "damaged" during LT - real or imagined? Or has Kairos, as us bad little boys hpoing to be men used to say, just "loved 'em and left 'em? I am just wondering - and in the meantime, blessings to all- Michael | ||
| ivangill (ivangill) New member Username: ivangill Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 212.158.206.168 |
I have probably been involved as a participant or a volunteer in around 50 LT trainings. I no longer am involved becuase to me, there is a small judeo christian concept of God that creeps into some cousres. Christians, Jews and Muslims probably wouldn't notice. But for me, the course works perfectly well without this, it is an unecessary addition. The religous elemnt begins and ends with this "L.I.F.E / G.O.D is trying to tell you something. It doesn't even go on to say what, or ask you to beleive anything specific. So it is not a religion in itself, but the religious background of Brad does show up in the above concept. Brad I think would like people to believe or see this. Disciplines. I am amazed at the paranioa some people have towards these, even fear. It's almost funny, but shows they work, let me explain. Discplines typically last for the duration of the course, (these are not for life!). They have three purposes, 1) Some are there to help the course run smoothly, Such as; be in your seat on time for each session. Hold one hand up if you want to speak and wait to be acknowleedged (to stop everyone speaking at once, and to enable a trainer to work without interruption with an individual, you wouldn't want to be in a therapy session and have the recepionist coming in and offering their opinion!). 2) Confidentiality and Safety Don't talk about what participants say on the course to people outside the course. For example I am always surprised at what proportion of participants talk about sexual abuse in childhood. Mental scars from these events run deep and seem to last well into adulthood. Is this why they come on the course (understandable) or is sexual abuse just much more common in the community than we commonly beleieve, I suspect both. If someone stands up and chooses to talk about (and process) a particular event in detail in order to see how it is still affecting their lives today, it would be completely inappropriate for their name and story to be told outside the room without their explicit permission. So one discipline everyone must agree to is 'confidentiality'. 3) Some rules are to help conciusness Don't take or reduce intake (varies) of mind altering drugs such as caffeine, nicotine. People used to be asked to go cold turkey on jnicotine in my day, now it is reduced intake to an agreed amount. Noticing physical feelings is important part of the course, if you are taking lots of painkillers or buzzing on caffeine, (or any other drug) it will reduce a persons ability to feel. Prescribed drugs are fine, and their is a medical team among other things will sign off on unprecribed over the counter medicines if they are required. Don't use Good and Bad to describe feelings. Neither are feelings, they are judgements, the course is trying to help people notice their feelings. I feel good means I like the way I feel, but does it mean happy, light, exhillerated, tingling in my chest... Some rules are arbitary, and change -Don't rest foot on chair in front. The disciplines are the backbonme of the course, it doesn't work without them which is why people are aske dot leave if they won't sign them. For the weeekend the Training becomes a microcosm of life, disciplines on the course are like those we encounter in life. What we do with the disciplines in the course is typically what we do in life. But in the course, everyone knows the rules and the environment and circumstances. If we are always late...... If we have "nobody tells me what to do" wired in our heads, we will probably stick two fingers up to one or more disciplines. If we do sneaky, or lie to cover what we don't do chnaces are it will happen in the course. The 1st course is all abpout noticing, waking up to see the games and dramas we do, and the beliefs behind those actions. The disciplines are the tool to highlight these and bring them to the fore. The fact that everyoone has the same disciplines means that often when someone owns up to breaking a discipline, and goes on to explain or discuss or argue with the trainer, we get to see ourselves and what we do. It is so much easir to see an issue in someone else than in ourselves. It is much more difficult to pull the wool over other peoples eyes in the training becuase everyone has the same disciplines. In real life it is so easy to say, busy at work, traffic was bad, etc and get away with it because the person you are talking to cannot verify what you say. In the training, when the excuses and even lies start coming, they are often so clear to everyone, it is almost funny sometimes, and when we can laugh at what we do, we are well on the way to seeing and fixing it. I suspect that some of the people who are so anti the disciplines, call it mind control, brainwashing..... haven't seen the funny side yet. They might find they have these kind of reactions elsewhere in there lives. If LT didn't work for them no problem, but if theis pattern of behaviour exists elsewhere in their lives, ask what is the cost, how does it affect my realtionships, work etc. If the cost is signifcant, consider a form of couselling or therapy they feel they can trust Okay that might be a catch 22 I realise. It seems that all false belifs that affect how we are, we have we hold onto becuase they are self fulfilling. Here was one of mine.... 1) Nobody likes me 2) No point in making any effort talking to people. 3) They will only turn on me, laugh at me, make fun of me 4) I hate them which funnily enough cuased me to behave in such a way that 1) seemed true "Nobody liked me". I was a pain in the neck and few people had the time for me. What a gift seeing my part in all of that and breaking the circle. Ivan | ||
| lolijume (lolijume) New member Username: lolijume Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.125.252.132 |
I am not sure about this but I am curious about something. I noticed at my MTL weekend that we were not allowed to have our own water bottles. We were told if we wanted to drink water we should go to the table on the side of the room and write our names on the clear plastic cup and then leave the cup there for the sake of preserving the enviroment by not wasting cups. During the MTL I and several other people experienced extreme headaches and digestive problems and quite honestly I was surprised at the level of forthcoming that the group experienced almost immediately. I wondered if they had put something in the water. There were one group of participants who remained cynical throughout the weekend. They, I couldn't help but notice, had broken the water discipline and kept their water bottles with them the whole time. Did anyone else experience anything similar to this? | ||
| artwise_one (artwise_one) Junior Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.35 |
Life training is nothing more than a bunch of h o r s e poop Mind-Talk from begining to end, stay far from this amateur crap, for your own sake.  | ||
| gatordave (gatordave) Senior Member Username: gatordave Post Number: 1480 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.141.185.22 |
"lolijume" email gatoraid@sympatico.ca dave www.crimebustersnow.com (Message edited by gatordave on February 04, 2006) | ||
| joe1 (joe1) New member Username: joe1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 82.43.211.223 |
Lolijume, I have volunteered at Life Training Weekends and have been responsible for buying the cups, filling them and keeping them topped up. Nothing but tap water went into them I'd reccommend talking to a psychologist or counsellor about headaches you encountered during the weekend, as i understand it this isn't uncommon when someone works on their subconscious beliefs. Artwise, I respect your position that "Life training is nothing more than a bunch of h o r s e poop Mind-Talk from begining to end, stay far from this amateur crap, for your own sake" But I disagree and have found great personal benefit from working with the processes which I write about earlier in this forum, I hope at some point we can at some point see some more constructive discussion on this forum as there are obviously issues that arise from trainings and massive personal benefits also. Best wishes and respect, joe_duncan_uk@yahoo.com | ||
| scout77 New member Username: scout77 Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 71.198.117.249 |
I met a man that went through the advanced course and a woman that tried to get me to do the intro course. This is a cult! He left his wife and kids and she broke off an engagement because her fiance wouldn't buy into this cult. Be careful and trust your God given instincts. Don't give up you freedom or your rights for these scams. I hope that these two people that I met find their way back, they were good people and it is a shame that cults like this exist. | ||
| joe2 New member Username: joe2 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 82.43.211.119 |
A Cult? Depends what you see as a cult. "adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices" "In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society" If you are saying that the life training is a group of people who have a set of shared beliefs I would disagree with you, in my experience the people on the training come from every walk of life and have equally diverse beliefs. If you said it is a cult of people who share a like and often a passion for making positive changes in their lives and helping others to do the same by using the processes taught on the training then I'd agree with you (this is my experience), So yes I'd agree with you that Life Training is a cult under certain definitions, but then so would be Christianity, Islam and even popular TV programs and Music groups which have cult followings. Basically I think a broader definition is needed to explain what you are getting at. Is it destructive? I think this is the important question and in my experience the answer is a resounding no (I fully accept that others may have a different experience then me). I know for example that in South Africa (where I have just got back from) the program is making big changes to people's lives, empowering them to help the communities they are living in face challenges such as Aids and corruption, accept and overcome racial prejudices which had in previous years crippled the population under apartheid, and is a respected program that helps people and communities overcome problems personally and collectively. It was subsidised by the program in other countries around the world at the beginning but now as I understand it is covering its costs. For those of you who have explained that you have seen people who take the training change their lives, split with their partner, leave their job, have you ever asked them why they take part in the training or even why they made their choices? What "specific" positive outcomes they have had from working with processes in the Life Training? Perhaps they are "normal" people who have been told to do "crazy" things after taking part in a "evil" cult, but why not talk to them about it before relying on your judgements as it is possible they had considered, grounded reasons for making a change. For me, the difference between working with the Life Training processes and seeing a counselor is that the self work is emphasised on the course rather then group work. In the West we are recommended psychological support (usually) only when things start to get seriously destructive mentally, one of the things I like with the proceses taught is that they enable people to work on more minor issues in their life which although don't cause chronic depression do create repeated difficulties and upset. The focus is on "what are you going for?" "what change do you want to make in your life" rather then how are you going to get more involved in the Life Training program. If someone has nothing they actually want to work on then they have no reason for participating with the program. I think you would be surprised to see how many people participate in one Life Training weekend and leave it at that, they may have noticed or worked on a destructive pattern of behaviour or gotten some clarity around a challenge in their life and then moved on. I can't see whats wrong with this? Constructively yours, Joe | ||
| artwise_one Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 66 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
Life Training, is it destructive? Yes it is. Stay away for your own good or you'll be sorry. | ||
| john_burten New member Username: john_burten Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.84.245.116 |
I took the life training way by in the mid 80's In Dallas... I also took the mastery training. I have for 20 years trying to get life training Kairos foundation to respond to promises they made to my group of grads. I have had no luck these people are full of it I sorry I ever listen to their crap. They pulled up their roots in Dallas left without any future support or follow up. They are all about you keeping commitment but get then to try and keep theirs and they don't respond. I moved to Austin where the sorry excuse for the group there was a joke too. I reached out to the supposed leaders in that area only to find out they were on ego trips and had no intention on practicing what they taught. They used to have an email posting sight but I assume too many people ask to many difficult questions so the group was scraped. Their Ideas are good but not realistic in out world. Now their just about money and power. I say run like hell if you don't get straight answers from them or realistic answers for the world we live in. I bit hook line and sinker and have paid the price for many many years still believing their crap for years and expecting people to understand the dogma. They buried they old teaching and became so kind of cult. Their allot like Evangelicals who talk a good game but never are their when you need them unless your a member in active standing. What an ego trip. Contact me if you need info I have had twenty years to figure out the scam...I'll give names methods and publish all my correspondences. Oh by the way they have changed their name I am guessing so they didn't have to keep their commitments to the past grads. JB | ||
| john_burten New member Username: john_burten Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.84.245.116 |
I took this training including the mastery classes and facilitated over 3 other trainings. I bought their scam and have tried for over 20 years to get my questions answered with no luck. These idiots think their training in a secret and most of the leaders of their centers are hypocrits. Contact me if you want to see twenty years of lies and unfulfilled commitments. I thought this was the real deal only to find that most of the leaders are lying hypocrites. Yes their ideas sound real and outstandingly good but I have look closely and have figured out what they are all about. Don't open yourself up to them unless they answer all your questions. I have tried to get answers from a posting sight in Austin Tx to find other disillusioned people who could not get answers either. I have contacted all the big shots and they have never.... not once... kept their commitments to meet with me and talk or allow me to take the training again after committing to let all grads of my class.... telling us we could take the training again for free if one so desired to gain clearity. I will expand my post later, or contact me. I told the snotting be-ouch in the Atlanta center I was going to expose their crap, she blow me off. Beware their veiws are unrealistic in real world settings, their views of living are not realistic and won't work unless your part of their group. I'll prove it as they trained me to do and I will unlike them keep my commitments and stay in integrity while doing it. Now!! LT lamos... you have someone who knows your scam. Oh by the way, to avoid their responsibilities to the older grads they changed their name and buried the old training group and won't even talk to you about it. Ask me... I may burst your bubble but I'll save you allot of grief and heart ache} JB | ||
| john_burten New member Username: john_burten Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.84.245.116 |
Sorry about the spelling and grammer on the first post.. I am posting for the first time and don't know how this sight works... I thought I was spell checking when it posted. Again sorry..JB | ||
| bruce_audley Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.59.179.3 |
You did just great. There is NO spelling checking required for passion! Bruce | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
bruce_audley wrote: "Oh by the way they have changed their name I am guessing so they didn't have to keep their commitments to the past grads". What did they change their name to? I remember clearly that they went back to Texas without paying rent or the electric bills for any of hall or offices they used for their 'Trainings'. They used to represent themselves with a squiggly line in their pamphlets which is appropriate because they will try to wiggle out of every "commitment" they make. | ||
| bruce_audley Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 268 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.59.179.3 |
artwise_one - I don't follow you. The quote you attribute to me is incorrect. Perhaps I can answer a different question for you, something pertaining to my own posting? Bruce | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 140 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 64.136.49.226 |
My mistake, john_burten was who I was quoting. Still, they didn't pay their bills, however, I thought the Training itself was what was most wrong, and I don't recommend it. | ||
| bruce_audley Intermediate Member Username: bruce_audley Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.59.179.3 |
Look at it this way. If that is the only mistake you made yesterday, you're a way ahead of the game. Personally, I made a couple of dozen on Tuesday and the worst may involve a paint touch-up on my wife's car. Do you want to trade mistakes? | ||
| john_burten New member Username: john_burten Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.59.168.34 |
I can't remember what the name is now. I got a call from the Atlanta group leader and she introduced herself with the new name but before they left Dallas they heard-ed all of us grads into a downtown Hotel meeting room and told us they were changing their name to Quest for life and that we could always come back and retake the training for free. I think that Brad brown and some of the leaders had differences in what direction they wanted to take the training. I think but am not sure that Dedra Zanoyak and Sue Scott and some of the other wanted to turn this training into a corporate cash box while others did not. Now Please don't get me wrong, I think that the training had a good concept. Keeping your word. Having integrity. Speaking the truth. not assuming but verifying. Yes they had many good ideas but any seasoned person could figure out that we don't live in a world where these vutures are cherished. Most people today can't tell the difference between lies and truthfulness. I found as long as I was in a group of LT'er I could practice the concepts but in the real world it was hell and opened you up to every con artist who could want to take advantage of you. For what it's worth most of the people that ran the Dallas group ended their marriages, if you know who Sue Scott is? she and her husband split up. So did several others, but that was a long time ago and lets face it some people are not meant to be together or get married for all the wrong reasons. My problem was that they road hard me to practice there concepts but did practice them themselves. I ended up looking at Lt as a cop out for people to blow each other off or go into their own little world and avoid the harsh reality of the real world. Thats what angered me. They told us to choose how we reacted, they also to us not to have expectation unless two or more people agreed to be bound by agreement but then they.. the higher ups didn't practice what they preached. I think their Ideals if practiced are good ideas for the most part....I mean practiced with compassion and care, not hostility. When I took the training they pounced on you if you varied from your teaching. yet it was OK for them to tdo so...Now... they use other terms or processes so when I talk about the training to new LT recruits they don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm sure they will rationalize their action as necessary. If they could get the whole f**king world to practice the world would be a better place but thats not the real world and since they guard their info like it's the holy grail there is no way to verify anything. when I put them in the hot seat they blow me off. Verify Verify Verify is what they used to say, but when I tried with them they snubbed me and acted like my concerns weren't important. What rotten hypocrite's.. They are so blind by their own crap that they can't even see what they have become. Oh yes they'd say I'm just angry and hurting myself with the angry because angry doesn't hurt the people your angry with True enough.... This is true but wrong at the same time. I am frustrated more than anything because they refused to explain their actions and allow me to clarify and verify. I was a true believer I even ask for some books to see if I could re- design or try to understand the training so it would work, but they wanted big bucks and would not even respond. How crappy it that? Anyway the space to post is limited so I'll close now and ask that the true believers explain to me why this happened. I noticed you had someone who was still involved posting here so maybe I'll get a response but I won't hold my breath. Peace to you all JB | ||
| john_burten New member Username: john_burten Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 68.84.252.247 |
Well I'd hoped that someone who is active in This group would engage me but like before when you ask the hard questions they use their processes to void you and your concerns. This is so typical of what I've found in the past. I guess the training has become superficial as in if it make you feel better or helps you to make a buck it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But if it seems to conflict with what been beaten into your brain just ignore it. When I took this training it was billed as the life changing world changing training. Now I guess it's an Island where you live within a group of others who think like you and to hell with the rest of the world. I'd really like to see if this good intentioned training can be adapted to real life with real people and not just a select few. Anyone out there willing to step up and see if there is anything worth saving here? JB | ||
| joe_3 New member Username: joe_3 Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 82.43.210.134 |
Hi John, Thanks for the postings, I can see you as well as others have been hurt by the apparent action or in-action of the Life Training group, I also see you acknowledge the work they do as being a good concept, an opinion I share, it is my hope that from constructive criticism the training can learn to offer a service which doesn't result in people feeling the way you do. I am involved with the training as it is here in London - at least I have taken the training a few followup courses and play a part on team sometimes. I will do my best to respond to your concerns as I can see that you represent more then yourself. I take part in different trainings other then Life Training and use what I learn in my day to day life (at least I do my best). I consider my life and perspective to have changed massively over the last 3 years through the work I have done with the processes. I feel more confident in many areas of my life and my ability to connect with other people and empathise has grown massively. This has in my perspective made my life very much more enjoyable and productive. I see your criticism of the training about lack of support, not keeping to commitments, and leaving you in the lurch when they moved from Dallas, how might I be able to help or respond? Here in London it is all much closer as it is a smaller space and support groups are more easily setup and accessible but what I have found most usefull is telephone support and many people willing to support me with concerns and proceses over the phone. I appreciate your posting mate, I am learnin from it, Best regards. Joe | ||
| artwise_one Intermediate Member Username: artwise_one Post Number: 222 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 63.249.100.67 |
What does "changed massively" or "grown massively" actually, if anything mean? Sounds like a crock of psychobabble to me. | ||
| robin_may New member Username: robin_may Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 84.69.23.130 |
Hi All I feel sad that so many posts are disparaging of the Life Training / More To Life program. I took the Life Training Weekend in May 1994. Since then, and as a direct result of what I learned on the weekend and subsequent experiences within the program, I have transformed my life from being of 'no fixed abode' and having substantial debts into creating a lovely life for myself in Cumbria, UK. It taught me to uncover what was beneath the games / dramas / habitual behaviours that I have played out most of my life and to keep bringing the best of me out to respond to what life brings me with authenticity, creativity and love. I dispute any suggestions that the program is a cult or has anything but 'pure' intentions. I've had little to nothing to do with it for years, but still regard it as one of the best things I've ever done in my 42 years on this planet. At the core of the program is the assertion that our judgements, assumptions and beliefs often have little to do with the reality that is outside of ourselves - and it seems to me that many of these posts are a sad reflection on the truth of that. If you are considering taking the training then I wholly recommend it. Brad and Roy are exceptional and wonderful human beings who have dedicated their lives to supporting and empowering people in releasing their innate creativity in order to create a better world. At the core of it all is the concept of being in service - the antithesis of being self-centred. It's an unfortunate thing that many of us seem to need to go through a period of being self-obsessed , in order to deal with the destructive behaviours that we have spent years practising, prior to being able to whole-heartedly be in service to those we love and the wider community. You will, no doubt, recognise that at times you 'play' at being a victim, or a martyr, or a rebel etc and that we have a tendency to get lost in resentment - which is soul-destroying and is the cancer of relationships. Resentment causes wars and all manner of terrible things that humans do to each other and the trainings that Brad and Roy have created are the most effective and practical ways I have ever come across in dealing with resentment. Brad made little money from the program when compared to the huge amount he put into it. The trainers are paid a fair fee for the huge amount of work and effort that goes into delivering a 35hr training over a weekend. Kind regards Robin May | ||
| awalford New member Username: awalford Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 87.65.157.187 |
Here's a letter I sent in Sept. 2006 to FACTnet's founder, Lawrence Wollersheim. I've not yet received a reply. Dear Mr. Wollersheim My name is Alex Walford. I’m a 34-year-old British man, originally from London. I work at the European Commission in Brussels, Belgium, in the department managing overseas aid. I acknowledge you and your team for the work you’re doing, and share the aims listed on your website. The Church of Scientology’s EU lobbying office is on the street where I work in Brussels, so I’m thankful there are organisations like yours working to expose the truth about them and similar groups. Second, I'm writing because I believe you’ve made a mistake, in good faith, by including in your cults list an organisation of which I have extensive first-hand experience, and which in no way meets your criteria for defining cults and mind control techniques. These criteria seem quite sensible to me, and if the foundation had met any of them, I'd have run in the opposite direction – fast. The only ones which made me pause for thought before drafting this letter were two of Mr. Lifton’s criteria, namely: a. “Explicit goal to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or personal level” – the foundation does have this goal, but I don’t think this makes it a cult; by the same token, you could say the same about my employer, the European Commission, or indeed about virtually any organisation. b. “A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group” – the courses do use two made-up, composite words: – 'lifeshock' (an event in life to which you react) and - 'mindtalk' (what you tell yourself about the event). But again, most organisations use some kind of shorthand or vocabulary. I don't think this necessarily makes them cults. On the contrary, I believe that the foundation serves similar objectives to yours, namely to encourage people to exercise their own powers of rational thought and objectivity and formulate their beliefs using these faculties. I also believe the inclusion of the Kairos Foundation in your cults list undermines your authority, integrity and hence ability to support potential or actual cult victims. You might think you have no reason to believe me, and that I’ve been brainwashed into my conclusions. Given your experience, I'd understand. But I would ask you instead to take 15 minutes to: 1. Ask people who know me well if they have any reason to suspect I’m part of a cult – people who’ve never had anything to do with the Kairos Foundation. I can send you a list of people, allthough I'd need to check first if I can give you their details (I'm sure they'd be happy for me to do so). 2. Ask other people I know who’ve done the course if they think the foundation meets the criteria you list. Again I can ask people if I can give you their contact details. 3. Grill the foundation’s leaders and trainers in person. You can get their details from the foundation’s admin centre in Knoxville, TN: 1508 Coleman Road, Suite 110 Knoxville, Tennessee 37909, USA Tel: +1 (800) 536-9377 (Toll-free in the US and Canada) Tel: +1 (865) 588-5400 Fax: +1 (865) 588-5465 4. Send a “secret shopper” you trust to do the basic weekend, or better still do it yourself, using a pseudonym so you know you’ll be anonymous. I believe you’ll see clearly that it’s far from being a cult, and doesn’t use any kind of mind control. Will you take any or all of these steps? I think the ball is now in your court. I look forward to hearing back from you. Yours sincerely, Alex Walford |
