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hopie (hopie)
New member
Username: hopie
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 4.156.99.130
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 4:48 pm: | 
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Does anyone out there have any first hand knowledge of this "network marketing" company? I am having "the business opportunity presented to me this weekend. I am extremely suspicious of MLM companies - they seem cultish to me.
If anyone has any information that would help me to make an informed decision, please post here. Thanks. |
gatordave (gatordave)
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 6:20 pm: |
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The answer is in their own fine print! And if you study their pyramid structure using simple arithmatic you will soon realize there will be far more people selling the product then buying it!!! Therefore no "Financial Freedom" except to the very few who started it." Their own disclaimer reveals .........
"The testimonials on this Web site reflect the actual experience of each individual, are anecdotal only, and may be atypical. The testimonials are not based upon any clinical study."
www.crimebustersnow.com So far our predictions are "batting 1000" |
rachellengland (rachellengland)
Intermediate Member
Username: rachellengland
Post Number: 302
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 69.128.222.206
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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But arbonne Dave?? Many women sell arbonne-it's a skincare and make-up line along the lines of Avon but a little higher end-If sales and skincare are up your alley what's the big deal not everything is a pyramid scheme-in this day and age when times are tough if
people get satisfaction and can pay bills then let them-I do not use this product line-but have seen it featured at many women's expos-seems okay to me? R |
gatordave (gatordave)
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 5:46 pm: |
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Many women sold emeralds in TTI. It was a pyramid and took thousands for millions even though many made money and got themselves out of debt. Women Empowering Women saw thousands of women make thousands as well but, millions lost millions. Some forced to declare bankruptcy.
In the town of Cotopaxi Colorado a bleach blonde calling herself "Athena" after the Greek God took off to the Virgin Islands with $125,000 U.S. from other woman, many seniors. Just one of the many horror stories.
Yes, like all these other scams, as you say "people get satisfaction and can pay their bills" What you fail to point out is that's a tiny few. The rest, the vast majority get scammed and many lose their homes and family relationships.
And you say "not everything is a pyramid scheme-in this day and age when times are tough." I say to you, the vast, vast, vast majority are. So, much so the Australian and New Zealand governments have organized a "task force" to deal with the exploding enormity of it.
As I wrote, our predictions are "batting 1000" and this is another obvious pyramid scam. As the Calgary RCMP Commercial Crime Cop says "it is easy to spot a pyramid fraud when you look at the recruiting program."
I say it's a pyramid fraud, and again, as I say, we are "batting 1000" and years ahead of the "foot dragging" authorities.
"WEW" "myth busted" TTI, Departure Central, gone. Canadian Diamond Investment on it's way. Newco the fraudulent pyramid fraud from the ashes of TTI and run by David Stewart the father of RCMP Officer Harold Stewart that claimed TTI was not illegal, etc., etc., etc.,
You see this pyramid Arbonne "in many women's expos." I read the statistics from law enforce about women, many older women, hard, callous, with absolutely no feelings even for their own "sister hood" in the exploding crimes of very high level fraud.
dave www.crimebustersnow.com
By the way have you sent your donation to Factnet. |
rachellengland (rachellengland)
Intermediate Member
Username: rachellengland
Post Number: 303
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 4.159.5.224
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
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Yes Dave I have, I'm not sure why it matters to you but I guess your just making sure we are all charitable? Take Care Gatordave.....R |
gatordave (gatordave)
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1555
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 12:32 am: |
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That's great! They need it to keep the forum going
dave www.crimebustersnow.com |
melc
New member
Username: melc
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 66.58.187.239
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 8:52 pm: |
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The difference with Arbonne VS. a pyramid is that everyone in Arbonne has equal chance to make it to the top of the company. If my up line didn't do a thing and I am working my business then I can easily pass them on by and go to the top with or without them. The great thing with Arbonne, if that happens, and they pick their business up again, as soon as they promote to the same level, they would pick me back up.
The other fact is that Arbonne is a member of the Direct Selling Association, and pyramids are illegal. We do sell product, however, we don't have to have inventory. I promoted to my car and financial freedom within six months with Arbonne. My team is growing fast, by the end of this month I will have six white Mercedes Benz drivers on my team alone in less than 11 months. It is good to be a skeptic but don't let a good opportunity pass you by because some people on a Message board don't understand MLM or Direct Sales. Look at Dell Computers, they sell directly to the consumer, not middle man and Michael Dell is now wealthier than the heirs of Wal-Mart. MLM may not be a conventional job to you at this time, however it is the future and so is health and wellness.
To answer this comment on the website, many people come on to Arbonne just for the discount. They never work the business so no they don't make money. Our demographics still show less than 40,000 people actually doing Arbonne as a business in the US and I think less than 10,000 in Canada. We launch in Europe this year and we are looking at Australia. If you are looking for a company with ground floor growth Arbonne may just be for you. We are on track to hit 1.5 Billion in sales this year and we still haven’t broken the one billion dollar mark.
If you are interested in taking a look at this opportunity, I encourage you to do so. We are a results driven company and the demands for Arbonne products are high. I am building my team in other States and would be more than happy to answer any questions that you have. I hope you all have a great day!!!
www.melaniecamargo.myarbonne.com
http://www.paulzanepilzer.com/tnm.htm |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 3:16 pm: |
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It is said everyone born in the U.S. has an equal chance to be President. But only one can occupy the position. So, your first statemant is false and misleading. Only a very few of millions (the ones in first) can possibly reach the top of your pyramid game even if everyone does the exact same thing. Do some simple arithmetic.
Arbonne has all the hallmarks of a classic pyramid recruiting scheme. And it is a pyramid scheme regardless of product (which does not in most states, Canada and other countries make a pyramid scheme legal) see link below. Many other companies have been members of the DSA and still been charged with fraud. That's no guarantee either.
Canadian Diamond Traders is an obvious pyramid fraud. They are a paid member of the powerful AmCham, the American Chamber of Commerce. AmCham apparently has little concern it is allowing this pyramid fraud to ride its coattails back to countries like Albania and other former Communist countries like Russia itself, these countries already devastated by pyramid fraud. An AmCham executive threatened legal action against me and CrimeBustersNow for identifying them as a pyramid virus carrier. But no law suit in months has been forthcoming. Check the TTI site and the blustering lawyers and the "freaked out" Pres Alan Kippax of TTI & BIM .
Now these pyramids are wreaking havoc in Ireland with 1 in 5 teachers being threatened by students, a woman forced to an ATM machine to withdraw cash to pay back victims. A gun seized from a pyramid scammer trying to protect his ill gotten gains. There have been several deaths in pyramid frauds. I predicted escalating violence as they are now experiencing in Ireland and I predict violence to increase exponentially along with the exponential increase in pyramid schemes such as you are attempting to promote on this site as victims begin to realize they are being lead to believe in prediciable dead end schemes ... So watch the new Mercedes and your butts.
http://www.vcresearch.info/open/forums.asp?TopicId=8268&ForumId=73
http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200603/1141432626.html
http://www.canada.com/globaltv/calgary/consumerbeat/story.html?id=962b2b5e-5881-4d0a-a5d7-d845b9dbacb4
dave www.crimebustersnow.com we return your calls toll free anywhere in North America and 22 countries world-wide. |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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wow, gatordave you seem to be well versed in lots of things, but not well versed in an alternative business model like MLM. I am not involved with Arbonne personally but I know three women in my town that have personally retired their husbands and earned their free car.
As for only the first few getting rich, you must not be aware that Arbonne, like many other succesful companies that market consumable items, doesn't need millions of customers, simply a host that like and reorder their product.
Selling products is not unethical nor manipulative, neither is offering the "opportunity" to people a chance to recruit unwitting fools. From what I have seen it takes a lot of work, but like owning any other small business, like a Dunkin Donuts franchise, it takes a lot of work and dedication. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:56 am: |
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There have also been many alternative governments and you can put a positive spin on their accomplishments any way you want by pointing out their highest achievements while hiding their deepest flaws. One that unmistakably made the greatest advancement and strides in technology and medicine, and mass psychology in the shortest span of time ever, given where they started and finished, and supposedly sustainable, according to it’s leader, for a millennium that also attempted to hide the worst of man's inhumanity toward his fellow man. That was Nazi Germany. It lasted about a decade start to finish not a millennium, and drew the world into the greatest waste of energy, resources and human life by the time it collapsed.
To quote you.... “you seem to be well versed in a lot of things but not well versed in an alternative business model like MLM.” I might now except others to reply, that I am well versed in MLM and pyramid scams but know “dick” about religion and politics. It’s all in the eyes of the prejudice beholder. But I can assure you with the equivalent of over six year of constant study of MLM I am well versed in that subject, certainly where it is relevant.
Unfortunately it seems, most people have difficulty sorting out simple arithmetic when those around them they trust (affinity fraud; rampant in churches) having themselves been confused and "brainwashed" in intense motivational meetings, all emotionally driven and many, many, with fanatic religious overtones, created and complied by sophisticated but corrupt accountants, lawyers, and twisted psychologists and perpetrated by trusting community figures like police, politicians, educators, doctors, chiropractors, members of the BBB, Chambers of Commerce, etc., engage in the old "smoke and mirrors" tricks designed to simply confuse and bewilder.
Anyone who carefully examines the pyramid structure without “all this noisy background” using a calculator that can handle huge numbers or a computer spread sheet and simply extrapolates the very elementary, first complete pyramid (“or downline; the preferred jargon) and simply and exactly “duplicates,” those figures, as is the usual MLM instruction, soon comes to the realization it is apparent that the “Power of Two,” (more pyramid and MLM jargon) is mathematically impossible to fulfill as is the promise that “everyone” can reach the same touted “Financial Freedom” by simply duplicating those above in the pyramid. It’s “smoke and mirrors.” It’s a scam. The only people who can benefit to “Financial Freedom” are the ones at the top of the pyramid, the first ones in. Period. It’s as elementary as the basic study of physics and the obvious mathematical impossibility of a perpetual motion machine on earth. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:14 am: |
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Now “disquared,” I suppose someone may also reply that I may be well versed in MLM, religion and politics but not well versed in physics, because, in their argument, and I’ve heard many in over 50 years, some as forcefully and violently put forwarded as those in MLM and pyramid fraud, that if you take a loaded spring that compresses as it gets to the top of the wheel and then expands as it gets to the bottom releasing the energy that will drive it back to the top again, ad infinitum...... or if you take a motor and attach it to a generator and wire the generator back to the motor “wa...laa” perpetual motion. It will run forever, and similar arguments. The arguments themself, the only thing being carry to infinity........ Duu!!! basics physics? Friction!!! It don’t work!!! Duu!!! they all stall!!! You waist the time and material it took to build it, and waist the kinetic energy you provided for the experiment that in reality did nothing but disappear into the heat of friction and was wasted producing nothing. By the same token the only people benefitting from this “perpetual motion scam” are those who sold the victim the idea (dream) the plans, (starter kit) and the materials...... The smart crooks and gangsters at the top. Gee!!! I just remembered the pyramid freaks calling it “perpetual motion,” with circles and arrows and fancy computer generated slide shows that would rival the “smoke and mirrors” behind the curtain in the Emerald City in the Imaginary Land of Oz.
Now, “disquared” it is sometimes difficult to sort out whether individuals like you are the smart “brainwashing” educated and intelligent corrupt crooks at the top or one of the “brainwashed” victims unknowing injected and infected with, and innocently spreading this particular strain of the same “virus” throughout the world simply parroting the scammers’ propaganda like the “brainwashed brownshirts” of Nazi Germany.
The biggest “smoke and mirrors” or the “obvious being the most obscured” is the great testimonials that you tout here, and expressed in one way or another in every investment, and pyramid scheme. “I know at least three women in my town that have personally retired their husbands and earned their free car.” This implies that I espouse there is no money to be made and no “Financial Freedom” in these scams. Where did I ever make or imply such a claim? How could these things be scams with me attacking them unless someone lost money and someone else made money. Your argument is more “smoke and mirrors.” The BREX (sic?) gold scammer made millions, so did the jailed PIP’s scammers along with millions of other crooks convicted world-wide. The very fact they made millions is what put them away. The fact you make money does not make any scheme legal or illegal. It’s how you make it. I personally know of several people who have made over one million. Several, in fact multi-millions. Over 50million!!! Since 1985 when I first worked for a company I believed in, and as a new and dedicated salesperson, who can sell anything he believes in, was offered $2500 to $3000 week after phenomenal sales figures in just over three weeks. Then I discover it’s a scam, and among those I inadvertently scammed were legitimate businesses, even convinced generous lawyers who themselves could not see through the scam, and individuals, in the community including senior, ethnic minorities etc. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:44 am: |
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So, as I write this am constantly haunted, unaware if you are the manipulating intelligent crook, or another uniformed “brainwashed” scammers or perhaps as bad or worse.... one of a huge number of uniformed “brainwashed” but vocal, misguided “do gooder” “sympathizer” like Bruce Audley that used to post relentlessly (though I must say not nearly as much as myself) believing you are upholding a free, democratic, domestic and legal marketplace, and the misguided right to mislead and confuse and lie, unaware, even if not involved, you are a “carrier” really helping to “brainwash” and spread a dangerous “virus” permeating our society now even in high schools, and perpetuating this misery on your victimized neighbours. It’s simple, as I constantly try to “hammer home” that if the program progresses as it is presented, in that everyone has an equal chance and can build the same downline as the first, mathematics dictates everyone world-wide would be a seller and/or recruiters wasting their time “running in circles” bumping into others tying doing the same. This scenario is duplicated in evey small communities where the recruitment pools "dry up" quickly. Their exists a terrible mess, right now, in Digby N.S. Can.(POP 2500) with family and friends at odds and near physical blows repeated in other small communities all over the world. So, to whom do the last in the program sell to, or recruit? A simple logical proposition. And in this long protracted process toward saturation, a hand-full become multi-millionaires. (I could have been one of them). A few thousand perhaps, become millionaires. Thousands more make 10's of thousands, and some thousands, but, some spend years following a false dream, having been “brainwashed” with the glitzy program but positioned at, or near the bottom of the pyramid. And the very last? The millions upon millions of victims racking up loses equivalent to the huge profits sent up the narrowing top of the pyramid (up line-the preferred MLM jargon) to the few profiting scammers, these millions of losers, the vast majority, some losing their homes, destroying marriages and family and community relationships, depriving their families of time and money and some ultimately committing suicide.
And lastly I quote you again.... "Selling products is not unethical nor manipulative, neither is offering the "opportunity" to people a chance to recruit unwitting fools.
Even high school kids?
“So, go ahead and hate your neighbour, go ahead and cheat you friends, you can do it in the name of heaven and justify it in the end..... An ode to Pyramid Schemes and the vast numbers of MLM
dave www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 9:51 am: |
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Here is a reprint of a letter from the Treasure Traders International Fraud
A letter received by CrimeBustersNow
“I too invested $3600 of my summer job earned money in this company, being told that it was the opportunity of a lifetime.
Being inexperienced in business since I am a high school student, none of the promises I was told by this company were fulfilled. The opportunity to make $21,000 seemed extremely attractive, so I purchased 3 spots in pressure from the person who invited me, as well as Mr. Kippax himself (since I went to the head office).
Seeing their building (I was told it was HP’s old building), I thought this was a legitimate business opportunity, but I now know otherwise.
Is there any way I can recover my funds? I was hoping to earn money to put towards my university tuition next year, but now even the money I made in the summertime is all gone, and I am in a much worse position than I started off in. What to do? Please help.
Also, is there anything I can do with these certificates? Please help."
Ontario High School Student
So, I ask you again "dsquared"
Even high school kids?
“So, go ahead and hate your neighbour, go ahead and cheat you friends, you can do it in the name of heaven and justify it in the end..... An ode to Pyramid Scams and the vast numbers of MLM schemes
dave 1. www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide. |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.166.140.110
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:40 pm: |
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First, I want to state that I have nothing to do with Arbonne International or any other MLM company, but just came across this thread in a search about Arbonne because my wife uses their Natural Progesterone cream. Though there are many manufacturers of natural progesterone that can give similar results, Arbonne’s wonderful product, in conjunction with professional medical advice, prevented my wife from having a hysterectomy. I’ll say again ARBONNE’S NATURAL PROGENTERONE CREAM KEPT MY WIFE FROM HAVING TO HAVE A HYSTERECTOMY!
My wife was diagnosed with uterine fibroids, which is a cellular growth in the lining of the uterus. This growth causes extreme pain during a woman’s monthly cycle, and can sometimes become cancerous. The initial recommendation her doctor was to go on the pill, which just stopped her monthly cycle, and to monitor the size of the fibroid through ultrasound. This was fine, but was a Band-Aid; it simply took care of the symptoms. This is analogous to putting tape over your speedometer if it is broken. It covers up the problem, but doesn’t fix it, and someday you’ll end up with a speeding ticket as a result!!! For those who aren’t painting the picture, speeding ticket = hysterectomy in this case. Hysterectomies are a BIG deal, not only is it major surgery, but it is the female equivalent of castration!
Gatordave - Have you ever had your balls cut off?
My wife was very skeptical of the initial recommendations of the doctor, and by the grace of God, didn’t have to follow them! You see, an acquaintance from church (a person I have never met before, but my wife kind of knew) got to talking with my wife about her problem. We came to find this medical professional had done extensive research on the effects of hormone imbalance, particularly the balance between estrogen and progesterone in the body. In fact, she had written a book about it, which she gave to my wife, and suspected she had a dominant level of estrogen in her body. My wife and I read the book, which contained a full chapter on uterine fibroids, and after consultation with her doctor decided to try topical application of natural progesterone for a couple of months.
Now I have to take a time-out and dispel any skepticism about NATURAL progesterone. Progesterone should never be confused with progestins, which they are commonly done, even by the medical community. Progestins are synthetic, man-made by drug companies, and are not chemically the same or treated the same by the body as natural progesterone. In fact, PROGESTINS are known carcinogens, along with estrogen. Both of these drugs are in oral contraception, which the doctor wanted to give to my wife simply to mask symptoms. Natural progesterone is plant derived. In fact, some progesterone is taken from yams. We all know yams don’t give you cancer!
Well just last week the verdict was in…my wife had her follow-up ultrasound, and we are elated to report that the fibroids are HALF the size. The doctor was completely amazed by this, even baffled, because this just doesn’t happen. The normal course is diagnoses, take the pill, monitor the fibroid size (which it usually grows!), and then a hysterectomy! When I first found out about my wife’s condition, I consoled with a colleague who’s wife followed this typical course...she ended up with a hysterectomy. The doctor was so surprised and pleased with the result and prognosis that my wife doesn’t have to have another ultrasound for another year (normally it’s every month!), and she said to continue the progesterone treatment.
With all this said, I would put my money into ANY Arbonne product!
Gatordave - Have you ever tried any Arbonne product? |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.166.140.110
| | Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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Second, I must say that the dialog on this tread is simply appalling. A diatribe, without merit, against a company that simply sells an outstanding product, but uses a storied marketing technique! Yes, I said STORIED marketing technique, because MLM/Direct Marketing, at its core, is simply word-of-mouth advertising! The next time you purchase a Hershey’s product I would heed your definition of a SCAM, because this company was founded on word-of-mouth advertising. Consequently, Hershey didn’t start “conventional” advertising until the later part of the 1960’s. (See http://www.hersheys.com/discover/history/advertising.asp)
In not one instance in this thread do you have any evidence of Arbonne being a SCAM. You only regurgitate evidence of OTHER cons, and try to guilt Arbonne through association. Additionally, your sir, lack the mathematical evidence to support your claims against Arbonne’s payment plan. Thus, I created a spreadsheet, using conditional formulas, that verifies the validity of Arbonne’s compensation plan. (If you want a copy just email me!) In fact, the main component that makes it sound, is that you must have “X” number of people directly below you to get paid at the “X” level below you. For example, to get paid on the third level below you, you need to have personally sponsored 3 people. This makes Arbonne’s compensation percentages mathematically feasible.
Gatordave - If your wife goes out and kills someone does that make you a murderer or an accomplice strictly based on your association with her?
LADIES AND GENTALMEN OF THE INTERNET!!! What Gatordave has done, has tried to convince you of false motives by surrounding a LIE with a bunch of TRUTHS. You see, he has surrounded Arbonne with the wrongdoings of other companies, and with most people, they associate the negative of others with Arbonne and then believe Arbonne is BAD!!! This is the PUREST definition of Brainwashing, and was used by Jim Jones to entice his followers…unfortunately, to their death. I would strongly discourage anyone from drinking this flavor of Gatordave’s Kool-Aid.
Gatordave…you seem fit the SCAM mold! I challenge you to produce hard evidence of Arbonne’s wrongdoing.
Why did I construct this response? Because I’m an Airline Pilot! You’re probably wondering what that has to do with anything, but it has to do with everything. You see, when I read news pertaining to my industry, it is most often plagued with sensationalization, misinformation, vagueness, and contextual tomfoolery. I can dissect the content…the average Joe cannot, and therefore is misinformed. Hence, when I cross paths with content, such as this, I feel the need to dismiss the claims for the average Joe.
Gatordave, you provide a valuable service through your website, and have all the right intentions. I have nothing personal against what you do or stand for. However, you need to start taking ammo to your gunfights, instead of spewing meaningless dialog as if you suffered from verbal Tourette Syndrome.
I more than welcome your rebuttal, and look forward to a meaningful exchange.
Tim Holmes
timothy.holmes@mesaba.com} |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 2:18 am: |
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Mathematics shows clearly it is a pyramid fraud. Everyone cannot attain the top positions in that chain anymore than everyone born in the U.S. can become President of the United States.
To lead trusting and niave people to believe otherwise is fraudulent misrepresntation, a crime in any civilized country. Young lives and old, are destroyed in the schemes with the clever and the psycological dominering making millions on these shattered lives. And one day, just like Abania, mark my words, some of you bastards are going be killed. Already in Ireland a person has been found with a gun in the 1-2-4-8 pyramid there, and in Mississauga Canada reports are, another was threatened with a gun as a result of TTI and afraid to tell police.
We were not wrong about the closing of TTI and the assets seized in the U.K. We predicted TTI, Departure Central, would fail. They did! The offices of the reincarnation of TTI pyramid, "Business in Motion" were raided Friday April 21, 2006 by the Sheriff in Mississauga. The reincarnation of Departure Cental "Filght "36" will also fail and cheat citizens.
Arbonne is running a pyramid. Distorting and misreprsenting the truth and many will lose miilions to the scammers.
"So, go ahead and hate your neighbour, go ahead and cheat your friends, you can do it in the name of heaven and justify it in the end.... An ode to Pyramid Scams and the vast numbers of MLM schemes
dave www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 2:43 am: |
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P.S. And it is you, the portrait of Jim Jones who are masking your schemes with what you call your "storied marketing technique!". Like TTI and their ship called "Destiny," and their "Treasure Chest Story" and the "two keys" (victims) to open the "Chest" just before the "Kool Aid" you mentioned.
We simply give mathematical and common sense facts. An it does not take genius to understand if each person in order to build their own organization must keep recruiting fresh victims, and those behind must do the same, in the end there will obviously be only sellers, no buyers. Who do think you kidding except the victims you can "brainwash" just like Jim Jones did?
Arbonne is running a pyramid. Distorting and misreprsenting the truth and many will lose miilions to the scammers.
"So, go ahead and hate your neighbour, go ahead and cheat your friends, you can do it in the name of heaven and justify it in the end.... The ode to Pyramid Scams and the vast numbers of MLM schemes
dave www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide. |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.166.140.110
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:03 pm: |
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I'm not brainwashing anyone, I'm NOT involved with Arbonne, my wife simply buys one of their products! To say I was involved with Arbonne would be analogous to me being involved with Exxon by filling up my car with gas.
ANSWER MY QUESTIONS GATORDAVE!!!
If you don’t, it will simply further my theory toward your illegitimacy. Silence implies guilt!
1. Have you ever bought and used an Arbonne product?
2. As a consumer, what do you qualify as a “legitimate” business in order to motivate your patronage?
3. How do you choose between brands?
4. Can you produce evidence, facts, that Arbonne is a SCAM?
5. Do you know anyone that has been “SCAMMED” by Arbonne?
BTW, A SCAM is defined by Encarta as, “…a scheme for making money by dishonest means.” If you can’t produce evidence that Arbonne is a scam, I would caution you against your liberal use of the word when referring to Arbonne. You could end up in a courtroom as defendant in a slander/libel suit.
Again, I'm looking for a meaningful discussion. Not someone reposting his or her own inconclusive content. I’ll give you a hint…go to Arbonne’s website and do some research, then post the factual findings of that research on this thread. Nobody likes ignorance, and when combined with the anonymity of the Internet, makes most want to discard their computer. If you stand by the intent of your website, you’ll do your homework and focus your energy on true crooks!
Good luck in your endeavors! Hope to hear from you soon!
Tim Holmes
Appleton, WI USA
timothy.holmes@mesaba.com |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:35 pm: |
|
The product is unnecessary to this discussion because I am not, in anyway, attacking the product since I have neither used it or researched it. That is therefore a moot point, unlike TTI that is definitely promoting extremely low quality gems with unrealistic sky-high appraisals which we have been able to confirm. If I found the stuff in the jar was odorless mayonnaise I would be be on it in a minute. So, perhaps you could give me a point or maybe two, for discriminating unbiased.
Pure gold, is pure gold, and money is money, if not counterfeit But, if they are used in a pyramid fraud, the fraud is illegal in the U.K., in the U.S. Canada, Australia and many, many other countries. If eight people give a case of soup worth $100 to one person at the top and begin recruiting eight more to fill the bottom "rung", that is an illegal pyramid chain. And the broader the base the more horrific the results.
The deception, and therefore my concern in TTI and Arbonne is the marketing thus far in the argument. And I say again, if the first completed pyramid is then "exactly duplicated, over and over," which is their sales "pitch" mathematically, and practically (and as an Airline Pilot I'm sure you can appreciate, since applied mathematics and physics (basically the same thing) is what got you and your plane into the air, and keeps you there) everyone, as a wrote, would be trying to sell the product and there would be no buyers. And, therefore no "financial freedom" for the vast over (95%) of the participants. Only those in early win. Worse odds than a crap table, where at least if your the last one of tens of thousands you still have exactly the same odds or chance to win as the first. Not so here.
The "model" is as fraudulent as placing a sign over a slot machine declaring "business opportunity - the harder you work the you work at it, the more you make." Fraudulent misrepresentation. Maybe even a stronger description than the word "scam".
The promoters of these schemes, the corrupt lawyers, accountants, psychologists etc., know exactly what they are doing. They laugh at people like you they have "brainwashed" to parrot their message to the masses, especially for free.
I have worked on the other side, and believe me when they can dupe a fellow lawyer, an accountant, and even judges, what an ego trip. And they laugh and spread the word around, but only at the highest levels were I was just promoted when I realized the math did not add up and I was working for a bunch of scammers among them police officers, and other respected service clubs members. So, I exposed them. It was the right thing to do. I could not be bought. Simple. I threw away the $2,500 to $3,000/wk. + bonuses in 1985 and with my face obscured, exposed them on national T.V. without finacial reward |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1604
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 2:39 am: |
|
Now, I ask you. Have you ever investigated a company from the inside? Have you ever had a look behind the smoke and mirrors and the wizard pulling the levers and pumping the smoke? Like in the "Wizard of Oz?"
Have you ever passed the absolute criteria of a "liable phobic" National Media afraid of being a target of a major law suit if even one small detail or technicality is incorrect? Have you ever been on national T.V. exposing a scam? And would you give me any credit for the common sense and unexaggerated straightforward fact finding based upon mathematics and the simple truth?
Now, being a pilot you might appreciate my looking out for you and your crew both in the air and on the ground, as the virus of pyramid frauds spreads as surely as AIDS around the world infecting millions.
In a telephone conversation I simply drew the Airline's attention to the "Women Empowering Women" scam that was spread by flight crew all over the world. I followed with an email. The Airlaine was aware of the scam and the devastating harm that did all over the world and now the TTI, BIM, CDT, DCI, Flight "36" pyramid viruses are bound to spread the same way. This where years of research has taken me.
----- Original Message -----
From: American Airlines
To: gatoraid@sympatico.ca
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:50 PM
Subject: R2006/04-28390-00301-001
April 27, 2006
Dear Mr. Thornton:
We appreciate your concern for our employees and our company. I have forwarded your email to our Corporate Security personnel for internal review.
Sincerely,
R. Tapia
Customer Relations
American Airlines
Now, Arbonne is running a pyramid. Distorting and misrepresenting the truth and many will lose millions to the scammers. In the U.S. at lease, companies are required to post the average their distributors earn. Usually that is quite a disappointing shock, sometimes only few hundred bucks average distributors make per year. So, before you go on about what little you know about pyramid fraud and MLM could you provide the average dollar amount of the distributors of Arbonne. They should have the figure readily available. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 2:53 am: |
|
The Telemarketers in the Southern U.S. raising money in a very questionable manner for the Ontario Police Association admit that a guarantee of a minimum of only 15.5% of the money they raise goes to the projects, and only a fraction of that, goes to "cops taking kids fishing", which is the "line" used to "hook" seniors, and businesses, (other clubs of course take kids fishing for free, just for fun!!!) and a portion goes to the well being (how much?) of the association (to me that means the trappings and niceties of the "boys club") and of course the ever popular political, abolishment of the Jargonistic "club fed" and "keep prisoners in jail longer rhetoric" which wasn't mentioned in the "pitch" given this senior, only a cop taking a kid fishing. Is that illegal? I duno!!! But it certainly is questionable!!! Especially when it sounds like 50.5% as it is slurred past you, and how many of the "about to be scammed" by telemarketers using the credibility of police officers, say.... "back that up minute" was that 50.5% I heard? Because I worked for a telemarketing company they gave only a whopping 40%, and they owned a city block in Calgary, the owner had three Jaguars. I witnessed him make $5000 clear in less than an hour working the phones."
Now, how he did that many times over is a story in itself. And how many of the potential "marks" would know the right and "hard" questions to ask to get past the initial telemarketer, the room manager, top recruiter and right to the source? The source, where all but 15.5 cents of your dollar ends up, less the U.S. exchange rate. In the coffers of an American company, Millennium Teleservices in Charleston West Virginia!!! With a branch office..... (nothing but a roomful of telephones) in Canada?!!
Sounds like B.S. and delusions, I agree, and have been told so. But Hey!! Here is the 800 number of Millennium Teleservices in Charleston West Virginia... 800-423-9411 Now you know the questions, do your homework, call 'em and see what the answers are. The more citizens that call the better.
But then what the hell does this senior know about scams, schemes, pyramid, Ponzi, MLM fraud, pitches, "tap cards," "marks" "selling the same ticket twenty times over", computers that store the information of your gift to other clubs and charities so they can see in an instance what you're "good for." You know, what to "hit you up for." In the old days salesmen left marks on the wooden fences of the generous, trusting and the gullible. That's why they're called marks.
So, being a bit short on time TO FIND OUT MYSELF, why don't you get me the average income of the Abonne distributors and we can discuss this in more detail. In the meantime bust up families, friends, community spirit and destroy the whole nation (Albania - the "hand writing on the wall) Ask questions in Ireland about the violence of pyramid fraud next time you land there and .....
"Go ahead and hate your neighbour, go ahead and cheat your friends, you can do it in the name of heaven and justify it in the end...." The ode to Pyramid Scams and the vast numbers of MLM schemes
dave www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 call 24/7 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide. |
voice_of_reason
Intermediate Member
Username: voice_of_reason
Post Number: 298
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.158.70.79
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 9:06 pm: |
|
The CLEAR FACT remains that MLM is a legitimate, LEGAL distribution model.
SuperDave will go to his grave with his handy dandy bullhorn stating otherwise. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1607
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 2:32 am: |
|
And, destructive recruiting systems that lie about the mathematical impossibility of everyone achieving "Financial Freedom" are fraud. The liar, VOICE_OF_TREASON is back. Now, we told you TTI was illegal. You swore up and down it wasn't. It was closed down as fraud and assets seized by the U.K. government! We told you it would close in Canada. You said it was here last year, it's here this year and will be here for years to come. But it closed as we said! We told you that although the emeralds are real, in terms of intrinsic value, they are virtually worthless. You protested that. But, they are virtually worthless!
A chartered accountant duped into buying this junk relying on the fraudulent appraisal by Steven Knight using his credibility as an appraiser for the corrupt RCMP has found the $30,000 appraised emeralds he bought from a TTI distributor for $15,000, no one, who knows emeralds, wants. He even took them to another country and confirmed they are virtually worthless. They simply did not want them! We told the readers the truth. You are the lair! We're batting 1000. You're batting 0 or less!
Now, let me share a couple of the many complaints flowing into our organization........
Hi dave
I am another of the many many people who fell for the TAI scam. I lost $3600.00 to them. And would like to get it or at least some of it back.
Thankfully I didn't get sucked into buying gems......as today I took a friend of mine to a jeweler whom I have known for years and deal with. She had an emerald supposedly worth 3900.00.......today she found out it is worth very little because of a serious flaw down the middle of it......
Can you tell me how to go about getting some of my money back.....anything you can do to help...would be appreciated.
name withheld
-------------
Hi Dave,
I've been following your posts in various places regarding Kippax. To make a long story short, my father is involved in Kippax's latest scam and trying hard to suck me in. I would like to pass on information of Kippax's activities to the fraud detective who has his file, but don't know how to go about it. Can you please advise me? BIM is asking it's new members for their SIN numbers. I hope any information I could provide would be helpful in investigating this group and exposing their activates. Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
name withheld
-----------
Unfortunately it was necessary to explain to this concerned lady that the trusted RCMP are corrupt.
Now, "The CLEAR FACT" is, VOICE_OF_TREASON, that you have no credibility left and scraping the bottom of the sewer your in. You are a liar, a cheat, and an anonymous low life, and like so many others are connected to high profile corporations. Specifically sending fraudulent misrepresentation in emails from Allstate Insurance Corporation. And you no longer have the colourful, though sorrily misguided, Bruce Audley to back your vile nonsense with the "smoke and mirrors" of what a "great family person" he wrote you are, or a least supposed you to be, and as I dispassionately tried to warn the world for the two years I have been posting here.... families and communities are being divided and kids in highschool now being cheated out of their university savings and blindly "brainwashed" and in turn attempting to scam and defraud their fellow students having been infected by the virus carried by scum like you. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1608
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 2:39 am: |
|
dave www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 call 24/7 we return your calls toll free in North America and 22 countries including Moscow, Russia. (re: Diamond Traders International gemstone pyramid fraud invading there.) |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 72.131.92.147
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 8:19 pm: |
|
Gatordave -
I was approached electronically, by someone in your past, who has solidified my suspicions about your character. Therefore, I will refrain from wasting my time.
By the way, I had to laugh at your solicitations for donations, with the intent to buy a mini-van. Seems the pot has been calling the kettle black!
Godspeed Mr. Thornton! |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1609
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 6:19 am: |
|
Do you know that the useless Crime Stoppers that neither stops the white collar crimes, the criminals nor informs the citizens of these crimes is a impotent non profit organization that has many vans paid for by donations from the public they fail to protect from these "white collar criminals?" Do you know that the equally impotent BBB is a non profit organization with millions in donations also pretending to protect citizens from scams while many of their paying members are involved in the scams, as is the same with the various non profit Chambers of Commerce and Christian Organization involved in Affinity Fraud, with ministers going to jail for 14 years "a crack" in the U.S.? Did you know that I, along with other concerned citizens and victims like, the student ripped off for near $4,000, and families have continually told these organizations of these illegal schemes, like Diamond Traders International which Kippax agrees is an illegal pyramid but not his organization, and the owners of Sum-It Club who says Kippax and TTI is pyramid fraud but not them, and Can Diamond Club who states TTI is a fraud etc., etc.,... did you know I was solicited by the Vice President of TTI only three months after they started with promises of 100's of thousands of dollars that I would have had no problem ripping people off for except for one fact,.... it is "not the right thing to do." I was even offered a free spot on the board, I had about 40 people I could have easily signed up in this, in one night ...And as a matter of fact solicited again by another TTI captain only a matter of weeks ago who recognizes my potential and wants me "on board".... Did you miss the part where I was on national TV giving up a $3000 a week job and a van I could have purchased in less than three months cash as some of these crooks have, to instead expose the exploitation of Handicapped Children by the sick perverse service clubs, and now a new drive to exploit children by the non profit organization, The Ontario Police Association through their sleazy program and their equally sleazy misleading telemarketers... Talk about a blind, closed minded Red Neck bigot spreading innuendo, gossip, and cowardly attacks, claiming to be an airline pilot. You are simply another gutless anonymous now degenerate sniper. So, Obvious. Need we say more..... well when you can't win on facts resort to undisclosed gossip!!! We don't even know if your male or female, you are claiming to have a sick wife cured by a jar of salve. Tell us the doctor and let us check out the miraculous cure. You still didn't find out or even further discuss the average earnings of the typical Arbonne Distributor. Your gossiping mind is so narrow I dare say if you fell on a single nail you would blind both eyes, as someone once appropriately observed, or you could even be one of the dirty cops on the take, an RCMP Officer ripping off victims in pyramid fraud, a piece of scum from the Women Empowering Women Pyramid, a politician on the take in these illegal frauds, or this undisclosed gossip of yours my have come from the former Chief of Police of Walkerton Ontario, who was charged with fraud, theft and breach of trust and pled guilty to a criminal offence and resigned from the force in disgrace, ....or the lying Assistant Prosecuting Attorney Brian Linley who placed false evidence before the Court knowing that evidence to be false, and after lying to the local media, threatening to sue me for a million dollars for calling him a liar, and finding out I could not be intimidated with his B.S. I wrote pamphlets "Brian Linley your a lying b*stard now sue me." ....... |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1610
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 6:25 am: |
|
He left with his "tail between his legs", .... Or perhaps you heard I was railroaded into court for breaking a Court Order that a year later could not be produced because it did not exist. Lies and gossip by another prosecutor who claimed I had spent time in jail on contempt in a family matter when it is proven I have never been in a Family Court in my life,.... that I damaged and destroyed locks and broke in, when a profession lock smith , their own witness, testified under my cross-examination the lock in question and the others, showed no signs of being forced and were in fact in pristine condition, and a police officer OPP. Brad Smith I caught lying on the witness stand who still, notwithstanding the evidence of the locksmith, insisted the locks had been forced when in fact he forgot he wrote in his own report at the time of the alleged incident "three officers [including himself] inspected the premises and found no sign of forced entry", or maybe your piece of gossip was the picture they took of the sign that was obviously broken by vandals some three years before clearly set out in former pictures, ......the sign police took pictures of and filed under property damage,... truth and documents mean nothing to tongue wagging gossips like you, only gossip and innuendo .....and just when I though we were going to have an intelligent exchange of the possible benefits of this product and an intelligent discussion of the compensation package based upon factual accounting, but you’re not interested in that, you reach for person gossip.......and maybe the gossip you heard was the further lies of police in the destruction of my business and destruction of witnesses affidavits and changing of courts records, and lies and perjury of corrupt police in regard to another proven non-existent Court Order said to exist, that was supposed to have been served on me personally while in fact my passport and boarding pass proved I was in Hong Kong at the very time, and the copies of that removed or destroyed by police in the secret investigation that was revealed under the Freedom of Information Act some years later,..... or the evidence by way of affidavits removed or destroyed by police of 5 witnesses in the same file and reports, while, I was in Hong Kong when they illegally threatened my staff and stole my business and my records, and a brother-in-law of Police Officer Rick Hunt of the WRPF who purchased 5K worth of my business equipment "under the table" from a corrupt bailiff for $350, or the corrupt private bailiff, former RCMP Officer Mervyn Bowman who we caught stealing another couple's business and stealing and destroying their chattels and business records who was subsequently disciplined in an irregular secret government meeting instead openly as the law provides.... Or maybe you heard of the false allegations police made of a 911 call they lied about me making that the actual 911 recordings and now the transcript I have obtained reveals it was a worker in a politician’s office who made the call that police then embellished attributing to me.... for which I eventually received an apology, or maybe the Mississauga police officer who twice put his hand on his gun threatening me,.... an unarmed senior in front of a highschool as I passed out pamphlet warning the kids of these illegal pyramids schemes, one, TTI that was later closed down and the cousin of the crook Alan Kippax who started it jailed.... but maybe you don’t know then of the apology I received over that abuse of that punks power, and the discipline of the young punk by removing him from the cushy job he enjoyed at the high school, taking him out of uniform, assigning him to a location and job he dislikes, and putting it on his record for 5 years rather than the customary 3 years..... |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1611
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 6:32 am: |
|
You should keep up with the developing truth instead of gossip mongering the worm, as they say, is beginning to turn......... What do you think the rotten corrupt police at all levels in our province do? They help steal businesses, they steal drugs from crime, they abuse drugs, help run fraudulent pyramid schemes, and specifically in our area, assault citizens, make racial remarks caught electronically and played at the Dudley George Enquiry as a wrongful shooting to death this native was explored, (with some RCMP in Western Canada throwing natives in snow banks to freeze to death like cordwood and then commit perjury).
You forget, or maybe you don’t know what area we’re dealing with here. This is WALKERTON ONTARIO with a disgraced and replaced Chief of Police in 2002 pleading guilty to a criminal offense, and he and his corrupt force and the prosecuting attorneys just finished covering up for lawyers and prominent citizens in the WEW fraud, just before they came after me in March of 2003, when I stumbled over the cover-up of the fraud and two intimidated women ripped for 11G’s that went to a local politician, Jan Johnstone, involved in the WEW pyramid fraud...... pyramid fraud freaks, “WEW” now TTI, Business in Motion,...... lairs, scammers cheats, they killed their own children in Walkerton with their cover-ups, old people, tourists, and others maimed or life in this community because of "doctored" water sample records, lies, breach of trust, dirty lies to the Health Officials about the water, sending them else ware in supermarkets etc., feverishly looking for the “elusive” e-coli bacteria while dozens of town’s people and tourists died and became seriously ill. This is the area where prosecuting attorneys knowingly use false evidence and lie, to jail the unjustly charged. And that far from Clinton Ont., were they persecuted Steven Trusscotte with the same system.........Do you know anything of what you parroting from this corrupt area of the province, or does the truth and evidence just bounce off that preprogramed sick solid brick wall in that gossiping mind of yours with a back entrance that only allows lies and gossip to penetrate without the least screening or critical un-bias review of the crap being absorbed there??? Surely the smell of the B.S. you allow to pile up in there should give you a hint.
You misguided “would be do-gooder” gossip mongering narrow-minded sicko!!! If you did your “flight check list” like you check your facts here, you plane would surely “crash and burn” killing those on board that trusted you. If people are swayed by your crap here and lack of fact finding their financial life could be at risk, and after that even suicide which is well documented in the wake of these frauds. Would you send passengers to their death in a faulty plane? Wouldn’t you check previous disasters to learn from them. Why shouldn’t you apply the same due diligence and logic to everything....... So, glad you chose to throw an undisclosed gob of gossiping goop then run with you tail between your legs off this thread so we don’t have to read any more. Hope for your sake though, your kids, or grand-kids, if you have any, don’t see your gossip mongering as this site as it is passed by students to their contacts through our link. We also try to protect kids from bullying cops through education by exposing them to the rules and regulations overbearing brutal cops are supposed to adhere to....... |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 6:33 am: |
|
dave ...... www.crimebustesnow.com unlike the other phoney agencies pretending to fight crime, we expose the criminals and riff-raft. Call 905-963-3389 - 24/7. We return your calls toll free in North America and 22 countries. All the pamphlets, traveling, gathering evidence, picketing on your behalf, sending letters and emails around the world for the last three years paid for by myself and a few volunteers. The fight now requires some financial assistance to continue on your behalf further exposing these criminals to protect your families and communities especially ethnic groups your kids and your senior parents. |
make7000
Intermediate Member
Username: make7000
Post Number: 249
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 24.150.254.233
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 6:05 pm: |
|
WATCH OUT FOR THIS SCAM CRIMEBUSTERNOW.COM
President of Crime Busters Now Dave Thornton IS tring to scam the public. As worded on his website "Don't let anyone rip off... you, your family, friends or community. Please, help CBN acquire this van in order to better accomplish its mission.". So let me get this straight because you are a poor worthless old man with no money you think it's ok to have people send you money so you can buy this van to drive around in? Sounds like a scam to me!!!!!!
Made$7000 |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 11:53 pm: |
|
I see the anonymous idiot and big mouth scam artist who already took family and friends in the International Affinity Fraud, TTI, and brags about it, the fraud known as Treasure Traders International, closed down in England as a fraud, the crook, Peter Kippax jailed and the assets seized, is back again with his shouting headlines. Notice he is tringing to bring the public’s attention to his opinion that "Dave Thornton IS tring to scam the public" notwithstanding the Vice President of his scam promised me 100's of thousands to recruit for the TTI fraud. I was even offered several free spots on the "pyramid boards", and only a few days ago I was approached by a TTI recruiter with an offer to join her group. They know I would be a valuable asset with them, rather then against them. This anonymous coward and moral reject looks more and more ridiculous the more he posts. BTW you "brained-washed" nut-job your cult leader Kippax (record assault, weapons and drugs) was served with more papers at his meeting just the other night and his offices raided by the Sheriff of Mississauga the morning of April 21, 2006. And the Toronto Dominion Bank officials get up in arms if you even mention anything about his pyramid and his banking history of laundered money there. Ask them! I did! Get your head out of the Kool Aid and smell the coffee brain-dead nut-job!
dave www.crimebustersnow.com call 905-963-3389 24/7 we return your calls toll free in North American and 22 countries.... And don't let anyone rip you off with false promises. Not even CBN. But, remember when you donate to CrimeBusterNow you receive no promises of monetary gain or monetary benefit, only information of scammers and an opportunity to bring them down and maybe recover your money. You have the opportunity to see "up front" what you're getting for your buck. We only promise to work tirelessly to do what we can to get your money returned to you, your friends and family and stop this crook Kippax and his clones world-wide. That's it! This crook Kippax and his "brain-washed" disciples took you for thousands, as did the bragging "Made 7000" sicko. CBN is only looking for 10 bucks or whatever, to pursue these crooks on your behalf. d. CBN |
make7000
Intermediate Member
Username: make7000
Post Number: 250
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 24.150.254.233
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 7:28 am: |
|
WATCH OUT FOR THIS SCAM CRIMEBUSTERNOW.COM
The only thing you are looking for J.A.D is money because you have none!!!! Tell the truth J.A.D you have no money so you want the public to buy you a van so you can drive around and do nothing. Let me guess for every $10 that someone gives you a $1.00 or less goes into fighting these scams as you call them and the other $9.00 goes into your pocket for "expences"
(Message edited by make7000 on May 07, 2006) |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 9:22 am: |
|
wow, All this time I just thought that gator was a person who had been burned, but all he is is a liar and a fraud. |
pickled_sausage
Intermediate Member
Username: pickled_sausage
Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.157.78.215
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
|
perhaps a more modest means of transportation should be considered. I'm thinking a mo-ped or soapbox racer might be closer to budget? |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1618
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
|
To bad you don't read. That's obvious. But then you narrow-mind sickos would never separate the truth from lies anyway. I didn't get "burned" in these frauds per se. Never said I did. I attempted to get $7,500 back for a senior victimized and sworn to secrecy and a single mother terrified and crying afraid to tell anyone a politician involved in a pyramid fraud with corrupt police & lawyers took her for $3,500. Now I understand from your attitude displayed here that these are examples of the type of people you feel are fair game in the scams you seem to back. That in my book makes you sub-human.
Now, I was "burned" by scum like you, and corrupt police for over a million. Police who brought me up on false charges, and lies from people with your obvious trait, and that for uncovering the thieving corruption of members of their OPP Detachment and families. And of course we see this duplicated with Dave Stewart the father of RCMP Office Harold of Hamilton and the family stealing and defrauding victims for 100's of thousands in a pyramid fraud, and the goon who assaulted me pushing me into traffic damn near getting me killed.
Now we see the proof of what I was stating three years ago. The involvement of corrupt police, politicians, lawyers etc., in pyramid fraud in Canada. The "TTI" pyramid fraud was closed down in the U.K. but corrupt police and government officials keeping it going here. The connection of police I wrote about, and Board of Education and teachers in these frauds, demonstrated by the successful law suit against a school principal and her mother, her father was/is (?) the Director of the Board of Education, London Ontario, their involvement covered up by police until that suit, and then the four police officers in the Virgin Islands who successfully sued a school teacher for getting them involved. However, In my opinion if these, corrupt cops, would have made at least their $7000 as this greedy "MAKE_7000" did they would have undoubtably shut up and kept it.
So, I believe you show yourself for the sick narrow-mind idiot you are. And again as money goes, why would I take this abuse when I could have simply joined these frauds near the top and made a fortune ripping victims off as you seem to condone and perhaps are involved in? I believe right minded readers see through your sick opinions, gossip and innuendo.
dave www.crimebustersnow.com call 905-963-3389 24/7 we return your calls toll free in North American and 22 countries.... And don't let anyone rip you off with false promises. Not even CBN. But, remember when you donate to CrimeBusterNow you receive no promises of monetary gain or monetary benefit, only information of scammers and an opportunity to bring them down and maybe recover your money. You have the opportunity to see "up front" what you're getting for your buck. We only promise to work tirelessly to do what we can to get your money returned to you, your friends and family and stop this crook Kippax and his clones world-wide. That's it! This crook Kippax and his "brain-washed" disciples took you for thousands, as did the bragging "Made 7000" sicko. CBN is only looking for 10 bucks or whatever, to pursue these crooks on your behalf. d. CBN |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
|
Gator, you are nothing but a one man cyber-lynch gang. After quickly re-reading your 1000 to 1 word diatribe above, I can not find ten percent of what you blabber on about that has to do with the company in question.
Perhaps you are the duplicitous one here. You are doing nothing but spamming on this site hiding behind a not-so-subtle mess. Reminds me of what those bastards do with pop-ups and spy-ware. Look at this terrible problem I can talk about, now give me some money to fix it.
Go away unless you have something to say about Arbonne. I am going to go and talk to people involved in it and find out first hand. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1627
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 8:14 pm: |
|
The problem is you read it quickly. It's obvious your narrow mind could absorb little at the best of times. It will absorb nothing with "speed reading."
I am simply answering to multiple posting on multiple threads that the idiot "Make_7000" who seems to be your new friend since you don't seem to mind it was he who expanded his idiotic attacks to multiple threads. Talk about "calling the kettle black." And talk about gangs and bullies. That is what my website and my postings are all about.... trying to protect seniors, students, kids as young as 16 from the likes of you and your dangerous bullying Pyramid Fraud Freaks"
I was dealing with two simple questions, asking for the name of the Doctor who examined the lady who's life was allegedly saved by a jar of Arbonne salve. If true it should be told world-wide and that I would do! And what is the average income of a Arbonne distributor. I was focused on that, but no answers came, only stupid rehashed attacks when I was hit with unspecified anonymous gossip and innuendo.
So, what is the doctor's name who examined the woman who's life was saved with the jar of Arbonne salve, and what is the average income of an Arbonne distributor? Can we get those answers with factual back up without all the gossip and lies that you can in no way substantiate? No answer for that yet?
And don't forget I only post a link to my site if you want to go there and read. If you want to make attacks on these threads concerning what I do on my site expect to have me defend it. If you don't want it here don’t bring it here.
dave www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 call 24/7 we return call in North America and 22 countries.
p.s. Like the idiot "700" you appear to be not the least bit interested in the truth. You simply want to hear a story of money making and care less it is only a few at the top: the extreme exceptions to prove your warped idea of the rule. A sure sign of "cult brainwashing" |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 6:40 am: |
|
After talking to an Arbonne person last night, I got some info: (she was quick to point me to their website c{Stop posting repetitive URL's please. URL Remover Robot;32685:6123,emp.} for more information, like average pay, etc.)
First, they do not want "everyone involved in the opportunity." Arbonne, at least this woman, recognizes that any good company needs customers, so she spends a large portion of her time talking to and servicing customers. With consumable products, they can have success with a small quantity of customers, because they come back and buy more if they like it and find value in the products. -- Gator, you seem to miss this point about Arbonne when you say that it is mathmatically impossible for the model to work. --
Second, they recognize and appreciate that many, in fact most of the people who sign up as representatives will never get to the top of the company. So, unlike gator's false assertions, they have options in place for people interested in working with Arbonne to get much of their own product for free or at steep discounts, that sort of thing. They sell stuff to a few of their friends and family and in return get the discounts and promotions, etc.
Third, the women and men who do go for the "top of the company" have no restrictions on getting there that you would find in a so called pyramid scheme. They can overpass their sponsors, the hallmark of MLM's which avoid the "pyramid" traps.
They have no promotional ties to sponsoring, only sales, so again, Gator, your attack on the fraud of math or whatever you called it appears to be innacurate.
Maybe if you spent some time focusing your anger on companies that actually fit your profile, you will be more succesful.
Again, if you have anything to add about Arbonne, please feel free to abide by the rules of the forum and share your thoughts. But if you want to rant about your imaginary connections between MLM's, alternative business models and Hitler, go someplace else.
(Message edited by admin on May 08, 2006) |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 6:47 am: |
|
PS Gator, it will go a long way in enhancing your credibility if you avoid childish name-calling. |
dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 542
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81
| | Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 6:23 pm: |
|
I find it interesting that "Admin" removed the link to the Arbonne site, asking the poster to "Stop posting repetitive URL's please." Yet GatorDave has posted his website's address over a dozen times on this thread alone. Does that qualify as "repetitive"?
I really have no bone to pick with either Dave or FN...I'm just curious about the logic.
Sorry to butt in. All parties have been warned, many URL's removed. I will always leave some and try to remain balanced. My only motive is an organized board that stimulates open dialogue. Thank you, Admin.
(Message edited by admin on May 09, 2006) |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 72.131.92.147
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 1:31 am: |
|
As quoted by the ‘omniscient’ Mr. Thornton…
“Tell us the doctor and let us check out the miraculous cure. You still didn't find out or even further discuss the average earnings of the typical Arbonne Distributor.”
The cure was far from miraculous. My wife and I did extensive research, in conjunction with medical advice, before using Arbonne’s progesterone cream. Here’s a link to Amazon.com, and a book on said subject. Maybe you should read it before your rebuttal!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1887938826/sr=8-3/qid=1147330905/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-6692332-4579159?%5Fencoding=UTF8
This cream is not mayonnaise in a jar, or a salve, as you imply, and Arbonne isn’t the sole producer of this product! Natural progesterone cream is simply a cream with a plant-based progesterone in it, and progesterone is a hormone, which our bodies produce and can absorb transdermally. My wife had an estrogen dominance in her body (tested with a simple saliva test), which means there was excess estrogen in her body relative to the amount of progesterone and testosterone. THIS CREAM PREVENTED MY WIFE FROM HAVING A HYSTRECTOMY!!!
Your post was nearly an attack on my best friend and partner in life. What she had was a VERY SERIOUS condition that would have required surgery. To downplay that is not only ignorant, but also condescending! I am cautioning your against you liberal tongue!!!
BTW, the doctor’s name is Kathryn M Meyer MD, and she’s an OB/GYN and located at the following clinic:
Affinity Medical Group
1531 S Madison St 3rd Floor
Appleton, WI 54915
(920) 730-4413
I will be in contact with her to see if you call!!!
Additionally, I looked through Arbonne’s website and they had a chart that showed what the average monthly compensation was $962.58, for all consultants receiving overrides. This chart doesn’t include any income from retailing the product, or consultants that only sign up to get the 35% product discount. This is straight from the Arbonne website at the following link: http://arbonne.com/company/iccs.asp
“The average quarterly override and bonus paid to registered Consultants in the United States that qualified for an override and bonus check was $2,887.74 or $11,550.94 on an annualized basis.” – arbonne.com
OK Mr. Thornton…I’ve answered your questions, how about finally answering mine. Come on, try it! Refutation is bliss!
(Message edited by rj85driver on May 11, 2006)
(Message edited by rj85driver on May 11, 2006) |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 6:43 am: |
|
Wow, I find it ironic that when discussing an organization, the link to the very organization's site was taken off. **I was the one who contacted the admins because of Gator's spamming this thread with his fundraising, hate-mongering campaign.** I suppose that having an honest conversation about what a particular MLM is on a board that's purpose is to shine a light on cults, etc. is asking for a less-than impartial hearing.
The woman I spoke to in Arbonne is an openminded, intelligent person who maintains close friendships with people outside of Arbonne. She and her family travel and spend tons of time together that my wife and I envy. In fact, my wife is now truly considering starting her own business with Arbonne, and based on the conversations here I am encouraging her 100%.
d-squared |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
|
Well you can tell us in a year or so if she became one of the very few big sharks or one of the little fish that lost her money, ran around for practically nothing, her meager earnings going for expenses and motivational meetings and the new higher fuel costs and wear and tear on the vehicle. I have my hands full with these other collapsing pyramids and warning high school and college kids.
What I can tell you is, believe it or not you have a better chance in the 1-2-4-8 pyramid scheme than this type of multi-level marketing. And that's the truth. You either lose your $5000 quickly and learn the lesson without all the terrible waste of time, or you're in early enough to con friend, family, and co-worker before anyone else has the chance and walk away with a bundle in a few weeks instead of years following a losing dream. For those successful, they make as much as $7000 in as little as a few hours, a couple of weeks and as much as $100,000 in a few months without really selling anything. They get as much as 60% + of pure cash without investing in wholesale product. Then pick up a product at the end if they wish. That's where my extensive research has taken me. But of course you probably know better with your modicum of research, never mind our predictions over the years have proven true, and some more about to hit the news. Links available.
dave .... "When you don't learn from history you are bound to repeat it."
It will be interesting to see if your wife understands it better than you. Take a real good look at the compensation tables provided by the previous poster above then read the discliamers below the tables and ask yourselves, "if that is the average what are the vast majority at the bottom making, or better what are they losing? |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 70.201.200.86
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
|
Well, gator, so far you are batting 1000, ... all lies again. She did sign up, and it wasn't anywhere near the 5 thousand dollars you quoted. Man, when you get it wrong, you really get it wrong.
It was more like 30 bucks, and a little over one hundred dollares for catalogs, samples, etc.
Good luck hunting the great white whale, 'cause you missed your target with this one. Where else can you start your own business with a potential for making a profit in under a year with less than $150??
d-squared |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 9:38 pm: |
|
Your problem dsquared is that you are a narrow minded skim reader. I did not say it cost $5000 to join Arbonne. I have no idea what it cost. I was comparing a 1-2-4-8 product masked pyramid scheme being touted as Network Marketing using the $5000 entry scheme as an example. Those can be anything from a penny to 10's of thousands. Why don't you simply read? I was comparing that to MLM marketing such as Amway and Arbonne where you buy in for little money and work your tail off and 99% of the "distributors" make little or nothing and many occur huge debts. Many lose their homes and many, too many, lose their families and commit suicide. But those facts you simply do not want to enter your narrow mind.
Using common sense and a calculator you can figure it out from those tables supplied.
So, now what have you got? She invested $140 or so with a potential for making a profit. A potential Only time will tell.
About batting 1000? For several year I have been trying to bring attention to the wide spread corruption with cops on the take being ignored by one Chief of Police after another all over Canada. Now we have a 29 year veteran of the largest police force in Canada speaking out in the press obout corruption and cover-up. I have also been saying for years that ordinary citizens are afriad of their police. Now in the same article a 60 year old woman taking up a petition against police corruption finds that most won't sign because of fear, imagine fear of signing a petition in a "free" country..... to quote... "They're all scared to be #2 because it is too easy to be singled out. They are frightened. It is disturbing -- nervous about challenging the powers that be."
Why don't you go back and carefully read my long ranting tarad a few days ago of police and political harassment for speaking out against cops in pyramid fraud and other corruption.
Still batting 1000. dave
Oh! One of the "hugh white whales?" you were on about. The billion + dollar stamp fraud in Spain with stamps being marked up 1,150%. Treasure Traders International now Business in Motion with emeralds marked up over 10,000% just last month opened in Spain. I was allerting Interpol and Spainish authorities of the product mask frauds, coins, stamps and gemstones only a few months ago. Still 1000!!! |
dsquared
New member
Username: dsquared
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.61.108.202
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 8:42 am: |
|
yawn, I would read more closely if you wrote about matters that pertain to this thread.
Have a good life gator.
PS, you shouldn't be so quick to point out the errors in other people's spellings unless you spell check yourself. Keep up the batting average.
PPS, while I am preaching, ...I also suggest you get a rather large mirror, so you can see in yourself what you rant against in others. Maybe police and other authorities would take you seriously. |
pickled_sausage
Intermediate Member
Username: pickled_sausage
Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 69.157.77.145
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 2:17 pm: |
|
Dave:
To suggest that corruption within the police ranks in Canada is "widespread" is one man's jaded view. Certainly there are anecdotal cases of corruption but to suggest these are routinely "covered up" is inaccurate. There are several cases before the courts right now that contradict this theory.
I see you had the sensitivity and compassion to rail against police at all levels above on Friday May 5th. The very day a veteran officer(and father) in Windsor, Ont. was shot and killed.
Sorry to others for being off topic. Just trying to inject some balance to Dave's rhetoric.
(Message edited by pickled sausage on May 17, 2006) |
ajonnie
New member
Username: ajonnie
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.52.248.238
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 6:03 pm: |
|
Now I REALLY have no opinion of Arbonne International MLM companies nor am I associated with them in any way. I haven't researched them and I'm not taking any sides on that particular point either. I consider myself completely neutral about the company itself.
However the fact that so many posting here either praise or at least support MLM Arbonne International seems completely suspect. Seems there is an infiltration of MLM company supporters here that aren't associated or involved with the company at all and yet they have extreme thoughts and feeling about any negativity being stated about it. Not to mention the excess of negativity pertaining to most, if not indeed all, of gatordave's information.
There is not enough opposition, no counter argument besides gatordaves. ... doesn't make sense.
The total attack on gatordave is suspect and just too unreal to be real. That would mean judging by most of these posts this company is practically perfect, a near God-sent. I think we all know nothing in life is perfect. I don't know the facts on the company good or bad but this thread certainly has helped me get an idea of what gangstalking is like.
I don't know if all your facts are straight or even accurate gatordave but I admire your strength in spite of all these attacks. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 6:57 pm: |
|
I thank you "ajonnie" for standing with me in the sense of questioning the apparent lack of logic you are observing in these attacks against me in the context of the broader over-view of MLM and Ponzi schemes.
In the news in the last few days is the story of stamps having been deliberately over-valued to the tune of about 1,150 % and sold as an investment through a pyramid-Ponzi-scheme. It has convulsed Spain in economic turmoil. Unbelievably nearly 1% of the population has become involved in this pyramid scheme believing they were involved in a legitimate business venture. Reference in Spain has been made to the collapse of Albania under these same schemes I have continually used as a model for predicting these disasters which are now manifesting themselves with many more to come, as a result of the proliferation of these schemes. The scheme in Spain reportedly involves $5-$6 billion of citizen’s investment and savings. Everything appeared fine for a number of years with seemingly reputable companies involved.
http://www.blackenterprise.com/yb/ybopen.asp?section=ybbf&story_id=93091406&ID=blackenterprise
And on the issue of wide spread police and political corruption in Canada “pickled sausage” is in constant denial of, drugs, gambling, bribery, extortion, and involvement in pyramid and Ponzi schemes, harassment, attacks on individual complainants, cover-up, lack of law enforcement and the “sweeping” of this corruption “under the carpet” and the fear citizens have in speaking up, all of which I have powerfully asserted for two years on this board and which particularly “pickled sausage” and his group rile against as he, and others, follow me from thread to thread with unwarranted attacks, is finally receiving the credibility it deserves. A 29 year veteran of the largest police force in Canada (another very rare “Serpico”) speaking out, and another senior, a 60 year old woman, attempting to back him but running up against a lack of support attributed to fear, rather than lack of distain for what is going on in police forces.
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/05/15/1580590-sun.html
http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/story/police-misconduct20060512.html
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/05/09/1570998-sun.html
And of course the article in McLean’s Magazine Jan. 30 /06 posted on another thread shows the RCMP are “turning their back" on serious “white collar” crime in Canada. It then follows in logical order that if their own police and police in other jurisdictions are involved in these crimes, this corruption is indeed being swept “under the carpet” and ignored.
So, again, thanks “ajonnie” for simply questioning something which certainly, on at least its surface, just quite didn't make sense to you. Indeed that’s how I started, by simply questioning one woman’s story that just did not make sense until I probed more deeply. Her story of being intimidated into silence after a politician received her $7500 in the illegal pyramid, "WEW", and I would later find out the facts of which local police and more importantly the Ontario Provincial Police were well aware of and the 10's of thousands received by just this one politician. And there were more.
dave ....CrimeBustersNow (crimebustersnow.com) |
ajonnie
New member
Username: ajonnie
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.52.248.238
| | Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 5:40 pm: |
|
Well you are certainly welcome gatordave! As mentioned in my previous post I have no vested interest in the company although I do have an interest in standing up for the lone voice in the wilderness. Everyone has a right to speak their minds and spread their information, and might I add that your info. is definitely prolific.
I feel no one would really spend that many brain cells simply trying to blow smoke up peoples A** which gives you credence to those such as my self who are not involved with this company one way or the other, and don't intend to be.
As for the statement about your being jaded ... I would say you're merely passionate about what you know and feel a strong sense of obligation to share this with others. That is considered a good quality, one would think, in most peoples minds. You're certainly not in the least bit worn out, exhausted, dulled, cynically or pretentiously callous as the word jaded is defined. As for questions ... I'm full of them  Take care Dave. Wishing you the best in your battles. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1648
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:27 pm: |
|
Thanks "ajonnie." I really appreciate that support. We are beginning to receive very positve emails world-wide in connection with the various frauds we have listed on our website crimebustersnow.com. Thanks again.
dave.... crimebustersnow.com |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 24.166.140.110
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:11 am: |
|
This thread is about Arbonne, and gatordave still hasn't supported his argument about ARBONNE!!!
Ajonnie -
However, reveiling they might be, my posts have never attacked gatordave. By reveiling, I'm referencing Dave's charachter.The fact is, gatordave has not once answered my questions in this debate, and instulted by wife by minimizing her illness! I can't speak for other participants, but I, on the other hand, have gone out of my way to answer Dave's questions in a mature exchange. I am simply highlighting who Dave's seems to be, a product of his passion, the very flame he's motivated to extinguish. Please read my posts, maybe you can answer my questions. I would like answers, because the more I learn about Arbonne the more I what to become a part of this company. I simply want rebuttal to make an educated descision, but Dave has failed to deliver. I want to hear about Arbonne, not about TTI or bad Canuck cops.
Dave -
Still waiting for answers...here is the list again, so you don't have to reread my posts:
1. Have you ever bought and used an Arbonne product?
2. As a consumer, what do you qualify as a “legitimate” business in order to motivate your patronage?
3. How do you choose between brands?
4. Can you produce evidence, facts, that Arbonne is a SCAM?
5. Do you know anyone that has been “SCAMMED” by Arbonne?
6. Have you called my wife's doctor yet?
BTW...My wife talked to Dr. Meyer the other day and she said you still havn't called? I'm sure she's looking forward to your questions.
Tim Holmes.... davebustersnow.com
(Come on now! Even Dave probably laughed at that one!) |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
|
I thought I would wait to see if you would return since in my investigation into this some things just didn't add up. So, now I will answer your questions in the order you have set them out rather than the order of importance as I see them.
1. I have never, as far as I'm aware purchased or used Arbonnie Products. I say that because my wife sold many lines of extremely good and very expensive products in our spa and I never really bothered to remember most of the brand names. However, my specific concern here was not the quality of the product it was the marketing. Many perfectly legitimate products including 99.99% pure gold can be used to promoted fraudulent and misleading scams. Also over valued real products such as the over appraised real collector stamps that have rocked the economy of Spain in a pyramid fraud involving nearly 1% of Spain’s population and $5 to $6 billion (that’s billion) and just hit the news this week. Now considering people under the age of 16 presumably exempted, that is a huge involvement of the earning population and senior’s pensions. And reference has been made to the collapse of Albania’s economy which I have been “preaching” since I “hit” this board two years ago. Now, the product is not the issue here and for the sake of argument I will concede it is the best on the market until proven otherwise.
2. One could write a 1000 page essay on point #2. Let's just say a business that does not engage in blatant or subtle misrepresentation or fraud.
3. I simply try to find the best at the least cost.
4. If you look at the material you posted and do some simple arithmetic you will see those figures hide many variables that when calculated would easily show losses. If for example these are averages and the top people make 100 times more it would not only drop the average but leave the people at the bottom with a severely negative income and loss. In depth studies and actual case studies prove that over 98% of those in MLM lose money. Many lose their homes. I know some of these victims personally. Also those figures you provided do not account for any expenses occurred. It is easy to spend more money promoting, marketing and delivering a product than you make. Ask many MLM victims, that is if you can get them to overcome the embarrassment and speak out. It is basically only the ones that make money in the scam that shout it to the world. How many of the people whose stories I have posted on my site have let me post their names? How many websites will let you post your name and contact # even if you want to.
5. If you look at proposed systems, some you can predict with certainly will fail and people will lose money. A simple one is if you buy a product for $2 and sell it for $1 no mater what your increased volume is, the more you sell the more you lose. I would not be required to produce an actual physical loser to prove that I would hope. Unless, like those who believe in perpetual motion you would not accept that logic as proof. It’s like asking me to produce a perpetual motion machine and prove it doesn’t work. If it doesn’t work it doesn’t exist. So, how can I find one and show it’s not working? Now, it’s more difficult to prove a loss in a system whereby you purchase a product for $1 and sell it for $2. But many gold mines with lots of gold are closed or never opened because it cost more to get the gold out than it can be sold for. It doesn’t mean if someone is dumb enough to take out a million in gold that it isn’t worth a million, it simply that it cost $2 mil to get it out of the ground. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1653
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
|
The total profits are a negative 1Mil. It is referred to as not a viable venture. Victims that get hooked into MLM fail to grasp that simple concept of profits eaten up in materials, time, gas, wear and tear etc. They believe if they work harder and sell more that will generate a positive result. That is not necessarily true. But, the guy at the top who collects the “gold” while others pay expenses is the winner. But, that’s not the other 99 %. They are paying the expenses. How do you think phrases like she got the “gold” and I got the shaft were coined. There is lots of residual truth in old adages.
6. Now, as far as calling your wife’s doctor is concerned, I did not bother to write an account of that because I was sure you would not be pleased with the content of that conversation. But since you asking, I called the day after I saw you had posted her name. It was my understanding the doctor was informed about this difference of opinion and me. Now, since you didn’t identify yourself I could only tell her of a pilot’s wife who was using Arbonne cream. The doctor said she did not know or could not recall that brand, she did not recall a patient as I described using Arbonne. I reiterated your claim “that this cream prevented my wife from having a hysterectomy” She said she felt you were overstating the benefits of it. And stated further “As far as I know there is no cream that will prevent a hysterectomy it you truly really, really need one … and I prefer not to have my name on this product.” She also stated she did not appreciate her name being put on the internet. Now, after that this protracted conversation, I find it hard to believe the doctor did not recall the telephone conversation from Canada with such and unusual request for information, at the time you say your wife called to confirm if I had contacted her. She even carefully wrote down my website and listened to concerns of corruption etc. How the doctor would not remember me and this call when your wife later enquired about me I cannot imagine. But that’s the truth of it. I don’t know what you think my motives are in seeking the truth. I don’t know you, but you don’t impress me as a being a knowledgeable crook or scammer. That’s what it’s difficult to determine at the beginning, if a person is a crook who knows a scam or a victim who simply believes the scam and having been sadly recruited, inadvertently involves their friends and family. But if you were in contact with as many honest “scam busters” and the few decent police officers I know and had the time to research what I have researched from their information and material I’m sure you would see this whole world of scams much more clearly.
As I have stated, I don’t know you, but if you’re not the premeditated crook, which I suspect you are not, then I am concern about you. That, as a psychiatrist pointed out is what separates humans from animals. Being able to empathize with fellow human beings especially when they are neither friend nor family or in this case even anonymous... I would not like to know “further down the road” that you lost valuable time and money or worse, or that you made money but friends and family in your “downline” lost and you and your wife feel terrible about it. These are the sort of emails and phone calls I am receiving since our organization was created. We are also receiving not only stories from high schools kids who were ripped off, but kids who want to know more about what we publish.
I feel like I am trying to prevent unwary and naive children from running into oncoming traffic. Had I not stumbled onto some of this corruption and dug deeper I may very well have been one of them.
dave crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 24/7 we call you back toll free. |
cuzican
New member
Username: cuzican
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.223.66.70
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:28 pm: |
|
rj85driver, you might want to check out the quatloos.com site and read what has been discovered about Arbonne. |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 71.53.51.144
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
|
I have done allot of research on trying to just find the AIRD (Arbonne International Research and Development Lab). I wanted to research Mr. Pierre Bottiglieri who spoke recently at Arbonne’s NTC convention in St Louis MO. Pierre is labeled to Arbonne as director of AIRD on Arbonnes web site video. I see many eye on Arbonne comments that state’s Pierre is Director of AIRD. Pierre is one of the leading chemist’s in cosmetics so I have read. I am not sure if Pierre is the owner, president, or director of a company in Sion Switzerland in the Alp’s. Arval is a company of about fifty people that do it all when it comes to Cosmetics R&D and Labeling. They are a laboratory that R&D’s formulas for many companies all over the world. They can make you a formula then have it manufactured then they will even go as far as private labeling design. All you have to do is be a distributor such as Arbonne. There is yet another company that does a similar marketing. The company is Beaubelle. They come up with the same product idea as Arbonne and the bottles may look alike you be the judge not me. Pierre is stated as President of Beaubelle. Now if you go to Arval’s web site you will see a picture of their facility. If you go to Beaubelle’s web site you will see a picture of the same building with Pierre at the door way with a Beaubelle sign above. If you go to Arbonne’s web site you can find Carol Kirken with Pierre under an AIRD sign in the same door way at the same Arval building. Stacey Lindsey is also on Arbonnes web site and at the same door way and same AIRD sign. On Carol Kirken’s caption with Pierre it states that Pierre is the director of AIRD. But if you look at every Eye On Arbonne page you will see in small very lightly printed letter’s that Arbonne make’s no claim to a consultants statements hence a consultant may write their opinions and they may print it. I have several e-mail’s right now in to Arval and Arbonne requesting the address and phone number to AIRD. I also found that Pierre’s name is on a skin care patent in the US and Candace Keefe’s (Sr VP of Product Development and Field events of Arbonne) is to. Arval R&D’s cosmetic formula, contracts with companies to assist in product development. Beaubelle’s web site states Pierre is the president of Beaubelle. Arbonne rep’s state that Pierre is the Director of R&D at the AIRD in Sion Switzerland on web sites. (http://www.victoriousnation.com/more-products.htm) has the same picture as *Arval* (http://www.arval.ch/strength.php3) which is a picture of the inside of Arval’s lab on victoriousnation site. An Arval Acount Manager employee has looked at these pictures and confirmed that they are Arval’s building with the Beaubelle sign and the AIRD sign but that only Beaubelle is a customer of Arval not Arbonne or AIRD. Arval has confirmed that Pierre left the company in 2002. These are the facts that I have receive by e-mail or by web sites. You may now review the web sites and the e-mail posts and research further or come to your own conclusions.
http://www.quatloos.com/TaxForums/viewtopic.php?t=1004919<--- this link is the entire events in chronological order |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 71.53.51.144
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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rj85driver
1. Yes I have purchase the product ( in my eye it is no better than store bought. Store bought is cheaper)
2. A company that is publicly sold. Not a MLM business that creates ethical problems in a fundamental business venture.
3. I choose between the product substance as being the most health beneficial and price conservative consecutively.
4. Please review my Quatloos post and I will leave this up to you in a bias perspective.
5. I personally have had the pleasure of not only being scammed by this type of business but been banned by Arbonne exec’s from even sending an informational e-mail to them to grow the Arbonne business for my wife and I.
6. Give me the number. |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 71.53.51.144
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 11:06 pm: |
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To Any one Who listens to Candace Keefe (Sr. VP of events to Arbonne) on Arbonnes CD you will hear her speak about how if you (for example) say you cure wrinkles you must be regulated by the FDA. Arbonne claims to cure nothing. If you use Arbonne products you take your health in your own hands. This is what got Bob Henry the new CEO of Arbonne into trouble with Mannatech. Mannatech is in litigations right now and if you read my posts you will see the truth of this company. I can not stress enough the fact that you can not use Arbonne as a fix for your ailments. As with anything that is not controlled by the FDA you must seek professional help. Arbonne may cure the symptom as Mannatech products did but do you want your child to die because you trusted an MLM business such as Arbonne in the end? I would never trust this product to save the most important people in my life. That is on the edge of a cult in my eyes. We seek a doctors advise and we must trust it. But as the example of Mannatech, a doctor endorsed it and Mannatech is now in court and the CEO of Arbonne is the leader that left Mannatech. I will not risk the health of my family on this kind of felonious product. Do not gamble with your families life, make good decisions.
(Message edited by blastingpowder on May 25, 2006) |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 209.103.207.169
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 5:34 pm: |
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Blastingpower -
Thanks for all the information, and candor. You seem to be an intelligent, and reasonable person. In fact, the way you have imparted your investigation is what impresses me the most! You list the facts only, instead of forcing your opinion. I have read through and viewed all of the links and pictures, and must say that it raised questions. This information will be exercised in my assessment of Arbonne! Thank you!
However, your opinion on medicine is very misguided! Doctors, modern medicine, and the FDA are not always right…they are human and therefore fallible. Show me a perfect doctor and I will show his/her fault…hubris! Actually, my family, friends, and I continuously have problems with doctors in our area. It took some time to find a pediatrician, in Appleton, who fit my standards, and unfortunately there were several bad experiences along the way. Fortunately, the good have outweighed the bad.
The reason I think you’re misguided in your opinion is ignorance. You simply don’t know enough about uterine fibroids and natural progesterone cream to make an intelligent decision, so I challenge you to do so! You need to research my wife’s condition, modern medicine’s answer (which is to mask the symptoms, as you imply), and facts about estrogen dominance and natural progesterone.
Secondly, Dave’s convolution implies that an Arbonne "super-cream" cured my wife. As stated in my original post, a natural progesterone cream alleviated my wife’s estrogen dominance, and reduced the size of my wife’s fibroids (by 50%) as a result. My wife and I decided to follow this treatment based on loads of personal and professional research, and under the guidance of her GYN. Additionally, we choose Arbonne’s progesterone cream because that’s what an RN (a friend) recommended at the time. We could of chosen any one of these:
http://www.youngagain.com/progesterone.html?gclid=CKKXm-WSnIUCFTpdJAod222zYQ
http://onelifeusa.com/health_news/grant_funds_for_pogesterone_cream.htm
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_progesterone.html
We are not tree-hugging, hemp-wearing hippies, that avoid deodorant because we think it causes Alzheimer’s. We are average American consumers. And this consumer would by Arbonne’s progesterone cream any day, regardless of their marketing techniques, because that’s what helped my wife!
Thanks again!
(Message edited by rj85driver on May 28, 2006) |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 209.103.207.169
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
|
Gatordave –
My personal information was given in my first post! If you did indeed “call” my wife’s OB and asked her if she had a patient that was kept from having a hysterectomy by Arbonne’s cream, that would certainly be vague enough to prohibit recollection. I will call her to validate your call after the holiday weekend (US Memorial Day). Furthermore, it’s not Arbonne’s cream! Natural progesterone is not proprietary! Click on any of these links to see!
http://www.youngagain.com/progesterone.html?gclid=CKKXm-WSnIUCFTpdJAod222zYQ
http://onelifeusa.com/health_news/grant_funds_for_pogesterone_cream.htm
http://www.johnleemd.com/store/resource_progesterone.html
The next time your “calling” Dr. Meyer you should ask her about the patient that had a 50% reduction in the size of her uterine fibroids from using a natural progesterone cream, not about a patient that was kept from having a hysterectomy by Arbonne’s cream. Dr. Meyer probably doesn’t even know what Arbonne is! However, it did keep my wife from the eventual hysterectomy! As quoted from the following link, "The gold standard for treating fibroids is a hysterectomy, but that is very invasive," Fennessy said.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=55515
BTW, if you want to further the minimization of my wife’s condition, and look completely thoughtless, don’t follow this link to start educating yourself!
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=uterine+fibroid&btnG=Search
Good Day!
(Message edited by rj85driver on May 28, 2006) |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 209.103.207.169
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
|
Here's another link to educate yourself Dave!
http://www.fibroid101.com/ |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
|
I have no idea what you're on about "rj85driver". This thread was opened by someone asking about a marketing plan not knocking the product or even commenting on the product. You were the one that interjected and began touting the product instead of sticking to the topic of marketing, then began putting words in my mouth. All I said was "IF" THAT'S "IF",... you know the word "IF".. not "it is" " "IF I found it was mayonnaise in a jar" that would give me reason to also condemn the product. I have even stated that until proven other wise I will not condemn the product and I accept it as the best on the market. Can you do better than that? What else can I say about this cream to make you happy???
Then you challenge me to call the doctor so if I didn't you could what???, ridicule me for that, right? So, I did, assuming, and rightfully so she might have been knowledgeable enough about the case, or it would stand out in her mind enough to have known what I was questioning her about; particularly as I probed her memory to give you the best chance I could. I look for the truth not a way by which to put someone down by any means possible even lies and unspecified gossip. But it get little weary defending against unwarranted attacks and gossip.
I quite expected the doctor, based upon what you had written to simply say.... "Yes I remember that case, I thought we would have to do a hysterectomy but after her using this cream it was unnecessary. Not that I am claiming this was a cure or the reason for the change but simply that's what happened." And that, and anything else she said I would have been more than happy to report back here with and continue to argue the dead end marketing plan for this apparently credible, or incredible product. That comes from a fair and open mind.
I don't condemn a product on the basis of a misleading or fraudulent marketing plan. Enron was marketing good electricity. The executives didn't get convicted for misrepresenting what the miracle product electricity can actually do.
You see that's the difference between an open discerning mind and a narrow "cult-like" attitude that everything is perfect and nothing can be questioned. You force the questions, then don't like the answers you get, so again, attack the messenger.
Now, I didn't bother to post what the doctor said. It wasn't at all positive to your claims. So, I let it lie.
The conversation lasted exactly 6min and 40sec. What did you give me to work with? No name, not even your wife's first name, only that you're an airline pilot and your wife uses what seems to me to be popular cream called Arbonne which, sorry for my humble ignorance, I thought Arbonnie was a product well recognized by women, especially since the one woman on this thread adopting the name "feminazi" aka "rachelengland" seemed to know it right away. Forgive the ignorance you assign to me for not anticipating that a woman, and a doctor yet, whose patient I am told by her husband... "THIS CREAM PREVENTED MY WIFE FROM HAVING A HYSTRECTOMY!!!" didn't seem to know anything of the case or the product. I also assumed you had talked with her about this discussion and she was anticipating my call. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1657
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Further you rattle on, "Secondly, Dave’s convolution" as you put it, "implies that an Arbonne "super-cream" cured my wife"...... is in fact implied from the exact quote you spewed out on your own posting ... remember???.... You even shouted it out in caps...."THIS CREAM PREVENTED MY WIFE FROM HAVING A HYSTRECTOMY!!!" That would, I'm sure, in my "humble opinion" lead any reasonable thinking person looking for truth, as opposed to a "brainwashing" cult mentality that breeds this kind of response and nonsense, to imply the same thing. You're the one making the claim, I simply repeated to the doctor, word for word which is the way I would have thought you wanted it. I also spelled out the type of product it was when she seemed not to know about Arbonne. I read it from your posting p-r-o-g-e-s-t-e-r-o-n-e. She knew that.
That's different from the kind of crap those on your side of the fence use when talking about me. For example, what was that little tidbit of anonymous gossip you claim was "slid" to you privately that you used as innuendo to attempt to discredit me without giving me an opportunity to defend myself against it. You can post it here or send it to my email at gatoraid@sympatico.ca . Don't you think it fair that I face my accuser or at least the allegation and be given a chance to at least know what the allegation is so I can defend myself against it? Or don't you believe in doing things that way?
Did it ever occur to you that you take an unfair advantage since I have the guts reveal who I am, whereas I could not say I received personal information about you, because you remain in the "dark shadows of anonymity" like the majority of your cyber-stalking friends? As the analogy I have made reference to before, like a hooded cowardly "Klansman" able to stalk anonymously, but not be found or identified as they walk among you. Think about that!!!
So, here I have a doctor on the phone who can't recall a pilot's wife using what I believe is a well known product, who, requiring a hysterectomy this cream saved from that surgery. What I posted are the exact excerpts from the conversation. Let the readers judge.
Now, getting back to what this thread was all about. That, you have answered... in this quote... "And this consumer would by Arbonne’s progesterone cream any day, regardless of their marketing techniques, because that’s what helped my wife!".... That is what I condemn. That's my argument. Like the hardened people manipulating MLM, and "Network Marketing" into misrepresenting and fraudulent pyramid schemes, you could care less how many people lose their homes, driven to suicide, how many young people, seniors etc., are brainwashed by highly educated, trained, manipulative and corrupt psychologists, lawyers, accountants, chiropractors, doctors etc., as long as you get what you want. That was and still is the argument I began with on this thread and on this board.
dave crimebusternow.com |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 7:59 am: |
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p.s. Now, "rj85driver" may I suggest that when you call the doctor you ask her about the Canadian from the organization CrimeBustersNow attempting to shut down pyramid schemes and fraudulent misrepresentation, who called her inquiring about Arbonne Progesterone cream that "PREVENTED YOUR WIFE FROM HAVING A HYSTRECTOMY!!!" She should remember that conversation.
dave CrimeBustersNow |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 72.131.92.147
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:50 pm: |
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Dave's self incrimination - "What did you give me to work with? No name, not even your wife's first name, only that you're an airline pilot and your wife uses what seems to me to be popular cream called Arbonne"
DO I HAVE TO HOLD YOUR HAND? LOOK AT MY FIRST POST!!!
The "Tim Holmes" at the end of it...that is my name!!!
The "timothy.holmes@mesaba.com" is my email address!!!
You never asked for my wife's name, just the doctors. If you made a concerned effort to investigate my claims, you most certainly should have done your homework. Additionally, if you were honest in your efforts to "crimebust" me or Arbonne you would do diligence in educating yourself about Arbonne and my wife's condition. By your own admission, this, you have surely failed to do!
"...sorry for my humble ignorance..."
"Forgive the ignorance..."
This is exactly why I started posting on this tread...because opinions, lacking foundation, are (for lack of a better analogy) airplanes without wings! Sure, it's an airplane, but it will never fly! I HATE people with wingless opinions, and highly respect those who present a solid theorem.
Here is some more hand-holding, so you can make the progesterone cream-hysterctomy correlation:
(A) Uterine Fibroids - severe cases of uterine fibroids (which my wife had) almost certainly result in a hysterectomy. From my post above - "The gold standard for treating fibroids is a (D) hysterectomy, but that is very invasive." http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=55515
(B) Natural progesterone counteracts the effects of excessive estrogen (estrogen dominance). http://www.fibroid101.com/
(C) Uterine fibroids are caused by estrogen dominance. "Estrogen dominance is the leading cause of fibroids and a precursor to a hormonal sensitive tumor." - http://lammd.com/opinion/firboids.cfm
If C creates A which causes D, and B stops C...then B prevents D!
Natural progesterone cream prevents hysterectomies, as a result of treating fibroids! Are you connecting the dots?
BTW my wife's name is Jennifer Holmes...maybe armed with this information you can "call" her OB again.
(Message edited by rj85driver on May 29, 2006) |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 72.131.92.147
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:55 pm: |
|
As for the person who's email you questioned...unless he is still monitoring this thread and gives me permission to post his personal information, that would be against the rules of this medium!!! I don't feel like getting banned, because I've enjoyed dismantling your rebuttals! However, I will post the parts of the emails that fail to identify. Enjoy!
Recieved 5/1/06
"Timothy,
I sincerely hope that you do not mind me contacting you off the forum. I enjoyed your recent postings regarding the success of your wife's story with an "Arbonne" product. You are obviously not only focused but, you have a reasonable and warm tone in your attempt to dialogue with Mr. Thornton. But as you may already be aware, there is no reasoning with him. He either lacks the ability to enter into a dignified discussion or for some reason that I am not aware, he is unable to intelligently grasp the obvious differences between many and varied companies.
I applaud your continued attempts at reasoning with him however; I can assure you that it will be to no avail. If his mind has drawn the conclusion that "Arbonne" is the same type of business as the many that he claims to have successfully taken down to the benefit of the poor and downtrodden, there is little that you will be able to say that will dissuade him. I tangled with him on the "Treasure Traders International" site and although we were both on the side of shutting down an obvious pyramid business, I wasn't angry enough for his liking. I withdrew from the site when he started to make what I still believe were threats to my family.
Be careful with him and try and appreciate that these are not the postings of a well man. If you're anything like me, you won't walk away from a fight just because some Canuk north of the border said it might be prudent. Just be careful is all I am saying!"
Replied 5/1/06
"Thanks for your kind words! Guys like this drive me to the brink of insanity; a short trip, but to the brink nonetheless. I especially thank you for the warning! My time at home is too valuable to spend on Mr. Thornton, and I will heed said advice.
What’s comical is his mission statement says, “Crime Busters Now is a non-profit organization dedicated to expose and inform citizens NOW of scams and frauds permeating their communities rather than after the deviating harm has been done,” and he’s soliciting for donations to buy a minivan!!! How does a minivan support his cause?
From my brief encounter with this man, and your email, I have concluded he’s a few cards shy of a full deck...and probably doesn’t have the cards for a full hand.
Thanks again for your email, and I’m sorry you and your family had to experience his lunacy."
Recieved 5/1/06
"Tim,
Double whammy! You figured out all on your own that a mini-van may have little or nothing to do with real crime bustn'! You're alright in my books."
Keep 'em coming Dave! I'm on a trip, and have all the time in the World for you. |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 12.161.108.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 8:38 am: |
|
rj85driver
Sorry about my opinions. I get a little heated when it comes to Arbonne because of the issues it has caused in our family. I am quick speak no doubt. I guess I just want to make sure people have their doctor approve of using any product that may help a problem that could effect your health or a loved one. I know that this is a commonsense statement but some of my family members have been directed the wrong way and it was not necessarily a qualified physician. As we are all different in our genetics one thing might work for another but not my family and I. If it works and it is safe use it by all means. Some of the claims I have heard from Arbonne consultants on the prolief cream and other products have been atrocious. I hope I didn’t offend you. I had my own experience with my wife and Arbonne. Many consultants are spreading bad info around because they are not educated with the info you have posted. My wife used this product for about a month straight and she had said it made difference for her. After about three months I think we realized that it was more physiological than the prolief. I think she believed in the product and company so much that she had been in a great mindset in life in general. Some of her personal symptoms (I won’t go into that) subsided while on the cream. When things fell out with Arbonne between her and her family the symptoms came back even with a strong regimen with this cream. We both feel that it was more of a good attitude and general lack of stress that naturally subsided her symptoms. I hope this helps clear up my quick remarks since I really didn’t give a story. |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 72.131.92.147
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 3:11 pm: |
|
blastingpower -
Your a standup guy! I'm sorry your family had such a bad experience, and I hope I didn't offend you in any way. Given my wife's experience, this is a very emotional subject for me, and sometimes I fail in my discretion. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1664
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 5:09 pm: |
|
No you don't, not really Tim, I don't think so. You just put your point across with passion and you appear that you’re looking for the truth. I just feel you are being misled by others who are not. I prefer your straightforward posting to the stuff I've endured particularly from the TTI Thread. I am very busy at moment, two upcoming court cases, one defending and one assisting. I was invited to address a class at the local high school about our website, mission statement and what we hope to achieve and what students can do to assist. That went well. I'm also working with international good guys against fraudsters and I am to speak informally with students at another high school tomorrow, but I will answer your last interesting post directed at me as soon as I get time. I take special note of the first paragraph. You unquestionably posted your name and email. And what was that you wrote in your previous post? "Refutation is bliss! You got me on that one. So, enjoy it you deserve it. And this! "DO I HAVE TO HOLD YOUR HAND? LOOK AT MY FIRST POST!!!" Ya! Sometimes you do! lol
And "blastingpower" you’re next. Remember you asked point .... "6. Give me the number?" Tim had posted this previously....
BTW, the doctor’s name is Kathryn M Meyer MD, and she’s an OB/GYN and located at the following clinic:
Affinity Medical Group
1531 S Madison St 3rd Floor
Appleton, WI 54915
(920) 730-4413
No wonder he getting exasperated. How did you miss that "blastingpowder"??? lol.
Sorry Tim.
dave crimebustersnow.com |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 12.161.108.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 7:57 pm: |
|
rj85driver
Sorry about my post. I ran through it quickly and had some grammar errors. |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 12.161.108.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 8:04 pm: |
|
rj85driver
I think YOU are a stand up guy because you stood by your family on this subject. I am glad you found something to help. I apologize again for being so quick on comment. This is my first time here and I have been posting on the Arbonne business issue all month and at my end with the business side. I don’t blame you for pulling out all stops on doing the right thing for your family and finding an answer to a problem. You are to be commended and I tip my hat to you.
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real_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 444
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.36.130.152
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:19 am: |
|
To all-
In order to help you to determine if a marketing plan is legal, just go to http://mlmlegal.com . |
real_truth
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 445
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.36.130.152
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 5:31 am: |
|
To rj85driver-
I read all of your posts and those of Mr. Thornton on the TTI thread and I really don't think Mr. Thornton ever was a treat to your family.
In fact, it was clearly demonstrated that TTI was illegal and an illegal pyramidal scheme that was closed down by UK authorities on November 2005 and they shut themselves down in Canada, 1 1/2 months later, to start as BIM, trying to avoid the same fate in Canada and perpetuating their money game.
In my opinion, Mr. Thornton goes right to the point and calls a cat a cat.
He does not adapt his language to the winner of the moment. |
rj85driver
New member
Username: rj85driver
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 72.131.92.147
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:19 am: |
|
real_truth -
I never thought that he was a threat to my family...I think you may have misread my post. I was qouting someone, who was monitoring this board, that emailed me in regards to Dave. He wanted to know who emailed me. Such post would have been contrary to board rules, so I just posted parts of the email instead.
I think Mr. Thornton's work against TTI is exceptional, and I beleive most have misinterpreted my intent. This thread is about Arbonne. I was simply trying to play devils advocate, and get Dave to provide some hard evidence. I have exposed the fact that he lacked any, that Arbonne's products have helped some, and have regorisly and thoroughly defended my claims. As said in my first post, "Gatordave, you provide a valuable service through your website, and have all the right intentions. I have nothing personal against what you do or stand for. However, you need to start taking ammo to your gunfights..."
BTW, thanks for the MLM link! |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1666
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:27 pm: |
|
I am still short for time but let me say first to “real_truth”. It’s true. Tim was just quoting from the email he received. If you read it again and "listen" to the “tone” I think it is obvious where it came from. I realize it is not written in your 1st language and easy to misinterpret. The email is a bit disconcerting though.
Now Tim, as far as hard evidence is concerned, that it what I was accused for over two years of not having against TTI. But these truths were self evident. They were simply denied. These people are in denial no matter what falls around them, no matter how many chartered accountants prove they have been scammed with sub-standard over appraised emeralds or families show they have lost 10’s of thousands. I have been warning about the domino effect of these schemes for over three years. There are still those who firmly believe that “Women Empowering Women” pyramid fraud (gifting scheme) would have continued forever with everyone winning equally if authorities had simply not shut it down. What do you tell people and their supporters who continue that obvious nonsense? They still use the same rhetoric with TTI, blaming (quote from there website) “thieving captains and executives” instead of the failing fraud they are perpetrating.
I do not make allegations lightly or blindly attack any system. But, like I’ve said before, today’s accusations of paranoia or perceived naivety, become tomorrow’s reflection of obvious perception and mathematical truths. TTI diehards still refuse to acknowledge it is a predetermined failing pyramid and are now doing the same thing with BIM only now with a wider base that will give more to the top crooks collapsing more quickly with more losers. So, no matter what intelligent proof you offer many people they will still say “you have no evidence.”
And there are those who, when beaten on the facts still attempt to win a victory with ridiculous obfuscating and by discrediting the methods I use and throw in personal attacks and ridicule. My motives were and are simple. I came to this forum with my story to warn others of wide spread fraud, particularly about Affinity fraud that can destroy their marriages, friendships, retirement, affect their children and send rippling effects through many connected family relationships, upset especially small communities and shake the very foundation of a county’s economy as we now witness in Spain with the “over appraised stamp Ponzi scheme”, with billions in losses, and previously the total destruction of the economy of Albania. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
|
I did not come to Factnet seeking or expecting to do battle with the vicious pyramid supporters I encountered on the TTI thread with their false degenerate allegation and innuendo of rape threats, and all the other garbage I was left to defend against as I simply tried, and am still trying to warn and shut down these frauds that are taking advantage of simple, less educated, and less “sophisticated” victims these individuals believe are there for them to mislead and scam and steal from, simply if they can. To quote from the private email you received concerning my motives..."to the benefit of the poor and downtrodden,” a sarcastic statement certainly revealing the total lack of empathy for victims and certainly the innocent members of their victimized families. And the continual personal attacks on and off the forum… as in “these are not the postings of a well man.” What they are, are the posting of a harassed human being by some of the most vicious individuals using some of the most atrocious methods imaginable to cover up and divert attention from the “Mother of all Frauds” spawned in Ontario, spread to the U.S., the U.K. and the rest of the world by judges wives, politicians, lawyers, police officers, chief of police wives, mayors wives, government employees, women running abuse shelters, accountants, doctors, chiropractors, bank employees, real estate brokers and agents (ReMax etc) insurance agents, crown prosecutors, jail guards etc., all covered up by members of the same brutal, racist, protester killng Ontario Provincial Police (Investigating OPP Officer Bill Sword and the “high brass”) and the use of intimidation, false charges, perjury, by the OPP and the dirty tricks, actions and omissions of the Corrupt Office of our Attorney General of Ontario. And now the “clones” of this wide spread scheme keeping the continuity of this fraud such as, but not limited to TTI and BIM both promoted again by police etc., and other pyramid scams promoted by at least one Crown Prosecutor and her husband and her son who is spreading it through at least one Ontario College.
This is some of the horror of it all. And as surely as we predicted the demise of TTI, I predict you will see an extremely large number of collapsing pyramids having run their course, started several years ago, many right after the “staged” and drastically “down played” and widespread WEW pyramid. But their existance and collaspe are surpressed by police, government and the media in Ontario. i.e. Departure Central Markham. 16,000 victims, $3,000,000 in losses. Not a peep that I am aware of from the authorities or media. Now they have launched flight "36". More pyramid fraud..... And I am not knocking Arbonne products, I know nothing about them. I am questioning, challenging and criticizing the marketing plan as it was presented here and on the website links.
These are hard truths and facts and I have no intention of “spin doctoring” or trying to obscure my motives, or sugar and honey coating my words with “feel good” Bruce Audleyisms. I did not come here to win accolades from anyone for my “suck up” languistic abilities. I came with the truth to warn others and to take meaningful action against fraud. To "save the world" as has been facetiously thrown at me. And that’s the simple truth.
dave. crimebusternow.com |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 9:29 am: |
|
Perhaps Tim, you might consider what a professional who has studied MLM for years and is an expert witness on the subject world-wide publishes. You might also question the hidden motives of those who are intent on having you dismiss my facts and writings "out of hand" as "postings of a man who is not well" and all the other gossip and sinister attacks. Why do you suppose a grown man with the apparent writing skills of the person who sent you that email which reads like a a town gossip would quietly send emails like that off the board? You are not the only one who receives that dribble. Ask him if he has an affiliation with the jewelry industry and connections with those in political power that covered up probably the biggest conspiracy to defraud ordinary citizens and launder money obtained by criminal offenses.
Looking at motives, and I say this with all sincerity, perhaps you could explain what you honestly believe my motives are in doing what I have been doing for several years now with regard to pyramid, Ponzi schemes and other fraud and illegal money laundering, especially when I could have made 100's of thousands even millions by saying nothing and joining these scams.
http://www.falseprofits.com/FitzPatrickCV05.pdf
dave crimebustersnow. |
opensourced
New member
Username: opensourced
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 68.217.10.247
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 6:15 pm: |
|
I don't beleive everyone has equal opportunity. To get to a certain level, yes, to become a big wig at the corporate office, no.
What saddens me about Arbonne, it that overall, it is a good product. I've met several reps who are smart enough to take before and after photos of their clients feet and face. Remarkable improvements and with the baby boomers wanting to look younger daily, it's a great market to tap into.
What I do have a problem with is someone telling me I can buy into a business that sells product but never really talks about the product, they just train me on how to bring in more people.
I am a pretty moderate person so using $100 a month in product seems crazy to me. If I am going to do that I'd rather be a Melaluca rep, at least I would gunuinely use the products (diswashing liquid, detergent, toothpaste, etc.)
I think Arbonne needs to look at the people they are sending these large checks to and make sure they are not tarnishing a good name.
I recently went to an Arbonne presentation. The presentation gave me the hebby jeebies. The presenter mentioned that it was NOT a pyramid at least 20 times. That lead me to believe that something was wrong.
She never talked about a money back guarentee or anything that would make me come off of $830.00.
For those Arbonner's out there, take a look at your business, know that you are ethical and challenge the company to do the same. |
cuzican
New member
Username: cuzican
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.217.65.84
| | Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
|
Hi opensourced, you have made excellent points about Arbonne especailly that they have concentrated more on the money making than the products themselves which makes one believe they are using the products to hide behind a big pyramid. I have been in Arbonne for almost one year but the past 4 months I have reported them to every state & federal agency I can because after I brought it to Arbonne's attention that consultants were stacking people into their network & frontloading products by the $1,000's with no intention of selling, Arbonne defiantly defended these actions. Therefore my friends & I filed every formal complaint possible trying to expose all of this now the executive vice-pres. who first defended the very people I turned in has been working with us for a resolution. It wasn't until we did all of this that they would even acknowledged us. We have also contacted the Oprah Winfrey show so that we can tell her about Arbonne passing out memos w/her picture on it stating that she was going to have Shad Helmstetter on her show to promote the book "The Gift" & then she was going to endorse the Arbonne products. In the memo it said to make sure we tell all potential consultants about this because we all know what happens when Oprah talks about a product. I am sure that Oprah would like to know that her image/name was being used to "pimp" Arbonne without her permission or knowledge. When Arbonne defends & allows these people to stack & frontload products they are allowing their co. to be a pyramid which is a crime in all 50 states & they should be held accountable for this. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
|
I am very glad to see there are people of conscience willing to do what it takes to expose these people that law enforcement, at least in my country cover-up for and downplay the seriousness of money-laundering. Keep at it. We can eventually root out this entire mess of pyramid fraud if we keep at it and encourage others to do the same particularly the victims.
dave crimebustersnow.com |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1679
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 7:24 am: |
|
received at CrimeBustersNow
From: (name withheld) xxxx<mailto:xxxxxx.xxxxx@dcranchnet.com>
To: gatoraid@sympatico.ca<mailto:gatoraid@sympatico.c
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: Have you rec'd complaints about Arbonne?
I am doing my due diligence on "doing Arbonne." Three good friends of mine (who truly are good people with integrity; I've known them for almost 20 years) started doing it 2 years ago, and although they have invited me to participate with them, I have rolled my eyes and scoffed the entire time because I have always had such negative beliefs about MLM's. Long story short, during this 2 year period, they are among the nation's top performers and I am astounded at their monthly earnings, and admit, somewhat wistful thinking, "Wow, maybe I made a big mistake in saying 'no'..." Of course they are telling me it's not too late, I can still jump on the Arbonne bandwagon and achieve the same success they have. They have also said Arbonne is the "darling" of the MLM's, that it is not what the others are and the vast majority of info on people's experiences I find through research, are positive. Plus the products really are great. So I am just wondering your take on Arbonne, as well as if anyone has ever contacted you w/complaints for any reason?
Thank you so much for any information you may share with me!
Sincerely,
(name withheld) |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.141.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 7:39 am: |
|
CrimeBustersNow - reply
From: <gatoraid@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:10:00 -0400
"I cannot give an opinion on their products. Some of the claims by individual users are suspect of being exaggerated but that is to be expected. The complaint I hear mostly repeated is that they are over priced. It's up to consumers to compare the best product to price ratio. Our concern is with the marketing. Most MLM and pyramids by their very nature take off explosively with top promoters making "a killing" as it appears your friends have. But in the end the very nature of the structure of the schemes dooms over 95% of the participants to failure. All do not have an equal chance at "Financial Freedom". The longer it continues the more difficult it is and the more losers become apparent. The last person in simply does not have the same chance as the first. It would be like starting the first Tim Horton's coffee shop in the area and having tremendous sales. If there is no limit to the number of shops that can be opened in that area hundreds more start selling Tim Horton's and the rest can get it whole sale by signing up. Now if a "cut" of all these lesser individuals sales go to the top one or two who started, they are protected from the saturated competitors. So, you have many individuals scurrying around like ants, using their time, money and resources for meager sales that after the up-line commission is paid and their expenses many are actually losing money or making a meager few hundred bucks. Don't forget no matter what, no matter the expenses incurred to make the sale, a fixed percentage of every sales goes to the up-line. So, in these MLM structures it doesn't matter basically if 1 person at the bottom is selling 100 units or 100 people at the bottom are selling only I unit each, the up-line receives the same.
So this leaves you attempting to "motivate" individuals to sell in an ever increasing saturated market market and when they complain they are not getting results the language becomes evermore harsh with the well know MLM expression "You're L&L" (Lame and Lazy) and sometimes far worse having sent many to suicide after investing the equity in everything they own because the dream seem so real and attainable. And it is...... for those in early and at the top. That opportunity quickly evaporates once the pyramid begins. If you are the fist in you do alright...... money wise. If your last, you join the over 95% who lose. You build your empire on "the the backs" of your family, and friends and as you get closer to the top it is very difficult for most to look back at the lives they are responsible for affecting or destroying and many quit. We discover the ones at the very top become wealthy cynical "actors" blaming the victimized masses for their own problems instead of a flawed business model.
These are my person opinions and the way I see it. But please take the time to read a few others with more experience specifically in Arbonne and an expert on MLM's in general Robert Fitzpatrick. Again this is not about the product, it is about the marking? I sincerely hope we have been of some assistance to you.
dave..... crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389. Call 24/7 we return calls toll free in North America and 22 countries.
|
cuzican
New member
Username: cuzican
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 68.217.65.84
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
|
gatordave, you should tell that person that emailed you to look at the "arbonneanonymous.typepad.com" blog & she can hear first hand stories about ex- & current arbonne consultants. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1710
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 1:06 pm: |
|
The governor to be and Amway.
The new and sophisticated breed of "THE UNTOUCHABLES"
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060624/POLITICS/606240320/1022
Do you see the relevant similarities to Arbone International? |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1731
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 3:08 am: |
|
Check link below
Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 75
Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: Confirmed by Arval that Arbonne AIRD does not exist?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Confirmed by Arval that Arbonne AIRD does not exist?
________________________________________
Ok. This is about as good as it gets for exposing the truth about a hoax. The Key Account Manager Olivia Moeschlin who I spoke with early this morning reviewed Arbonnes web site pictures and confirmed that yes it is Arval’s building but AIRD is not there and there is no sign. Every good person that does Arbonne believes that AIRD exists. If nothing I have written is true this one is 100% fact about how Arbonne is literally lying with a picture and a sign. I can only assume that Arbonne products are Beaubelle relabeled products for the US. Beaubelle is a customer of Arval and yes Pierre is the president of this company. I may have caused Arbonne some problems now due to the fact that Arval now knows that their building is being used as advertisement in a misleading way. I can only imagine the back pedaling Arbonne is going to do when all of you spread this info around. Please send this info around to prevent further misleading to good American people who want to join this company venture. Here is the confirmation e-mail.
From: "Olivia Moeschlin" <o.moeschlin@arval.ch>
To: "'James
Subject: RE: Inquiring information
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:33:53 +0200
Dear James,
Thank you very much for the pictures.
http://www.quatloos.com/Tax-Forums/viewtopic.php?t=1004919
dave.... www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 24/7 calls returned toll free in N. America and 22 countries. |
blastingpowder
New member
Username: blastingpowder
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 71.54.71.119
| | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 6:16 pm: |
|
I am asking the moderators or administrators to please remove my posts with user name “Blastingpowder”. Thank you |
calik
New member
Username: calik
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 75.35.23.61
| | Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 2:45 am: |
|
Arbonne is a decent product, though expensively priced. A face cream retails for $72, a face wash, for $35. I can't say it's better than a lot of the stuff already out there , from healthfood stores like Whole Foods to spas, salons and stores.
I would be loathe to make that claim that Arbonne shrinks fibroid tumors 'forever' because you never know what woman will opt not to get further medical treatment and slather on progestreone creams instead. Now if it helps your wife, then good. But by no stretch of the imagination should you think her struggle is over. It isn't, and I wish you two the best of success with whatever treatment you take.
Also, let's call it what it is. Let's debunk the whole Swiss cachet. They call it "Swiss," which is like saying that Bayer Aspirin is German. It's a half-truth, and used more for market perception. The owner of the company is Swiss, but has been here for 30 years or more. The original formulation may have been formulated in Switzerland, but the product is manufactured in the USA. So it's about as Swiss as Swiss Miss Cocoa. Let's just call it a very decent American product made in Irvine, CA.
If you ever sit through an Arbonne "pitch," you'll see this formation in a presentation that they show to you
0 (Top Tier)
0 0 0 0 (second)
0000 0000 0000 0000 (third)
As you can see, it's a pyramid. And the consultants spend 70% of their 'pitch' time talking about signing up to sell the product, rather than the product itself. Why? Well, for one thing, a lot of them really don't understand cellular biology, can't say all the words with the ease of a scientist, and more to the point, they know no one there is going to spend $269 for the kit, if they can sign up for $29 and get a big discount on further orders.
So it's funny, because very few people actually 'buy' any product at full price at an Arbonne party. Instead, the consultants try to sign people up.
Most people get into Arbonne not to pay extra bills or earn that Mercedes, which every consultant talks about ad infinitum (Now here's something ODD: you'd think with a company that prides itself on being 'natural,' they'd make people drive EV's, or hybrids instead. Why not give out a Prius? Why use an 'non-animal tested product only to rip the hell out of the ozone?)
Anyway, I digress... most people sign up to sell in order to get a discount on the product.
The problem with pyramid schemes is that they tend to saturate a given market. Like gatordave, you just have to do the math to understand marketplace saturation.
Unlike stores, which have a contract of exclusivity in a given area, Arbonne is dependent on on friend asking another, and another and so on until every other person they know is "selling" the product, or is able to order it at a discount. So like any other pyramid scheme, there will be a point of market saturation.
Arbonne is relatively new, so this has not come to fruition as of yet. When it does, Arbonne wil be sold in stores. Mark my words. It'll happen, but not for a long, long time.
So is there money to be made, despite this? Sure. If you know how to market the product beyond the typical common knowledge of asking your friends and co-workers. In fact, there are many MLM 'experts' offering their advice on how to grow your business for a fee! Now that's smart! But remember, you can get this same information by going to the Small Business Association (sba.gov) for free.
Remember, to make any money off anything you have to
1. Love it.
2. Work your ••• off
3. Be consistent
4. Deliver
5. Evaluate
6. Improve
(Message edited by calik on November 06, 2006) |
calik
New member
Username: calik
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 75.35.23.61
| | Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 3:37 am: |
|
Sorry... I meant
Small Business Administration!
http://sba.gov
To the husband of the woman with the fibroids:
Your healtchare provider is not allowed to discuss her case with anyone who calls. This is against a law called HIPAA. In order to do this, you must put it in writing authorizing his to speak to gatordave.
But I doubt he'd do that. Just revealing her name and her doctor's name to him was a breach of her privacy.
(Message edited by calik on November 06, 2006) |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1832
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 4:30 am: |
|
But to market any product that way is illegal. It's fraud, misrepresentation and unfair competion.
dave |
righteous_mama
New member
Username: righteous_mama
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.99.180.134
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
|
I recently started a business blog to record my use of Shaklee and post articles of interest to my customers, etc. I was faced with some disturbing information about Arbonne. I was using Arbonne's progesterone cream until it stopped working. I am now using Dr. Helen Pensanti's cream (look her up!). I also used Arbonne's RE9 for a bit and was shocked to discover that they use ingredients that are illegal in other countries. They also market themselves as a natural company (not so much blatently as they do sneaky-like) and they are not. I just talked with a mom who is upset that she believed she was using an all-natural product on her baby when in fact the wash contains a petrochemical!
My blog is at http://www.xanga.com/ecofriendlyhome I may be more hippy than some would prefer, but I do believe that we need to take care of home, body, and environment in order to be good stewards. As natural as I like to be, I still drink coke and love pepperoni pizza. (lol)
I would never want to be involved with a company that misrepresents themselves. I also have heard numerous examples of how women in Arbonne could've been paid much more in a different company...like Shaklee (since that was the point of reference I was coming from). I am a stay at home mom and if I'm going to put effort in to build a business I would like to be paid properly for my efforts. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2479
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.109.192.236
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 3:35 pm: |
|
I would never want to be involved with a company that misrepresents themselves(righteous mama)
Name a company that doesn't misrepresent itself?If they all told the truth-then they wouldn't make a sale!I have worked in the Beauty Biz over 6 years,in the medical and retail field and Arbonne isn't a great product.Yet it sounds to me as though you are trying to promote shaklee here for your own gain and shaklee isn't that awesome either...
I think Dave would consider it a Pyramid Scheme equal to Amway or Herbal life....R
(Message edited by rachelengland on December 29, 2006) |
righteous_mama
New member
Username: righteous_mama
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.99.180.134
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:13 pm: |
|
Rachel...I wasn't here to promote Shaklee. In fact, I've been on FactNet for a long time, but my account was screwed up when they were doing some maintenance, so it looks like I haven't been here. I usually only post in the cult (etc) section.
I don't really care what Dave thinks. No offense, Dave, I'm sure you are a wonderful person...but, I don't answer to Dave. Shaklee is not a pyramid scheme....but I didn't come here to argue that. I can here to offer information about Arbonne using ingredients in their products that are more than questionable.
And I don't believe every company misrepresents itself. I have owned my own business and never misrepresented myself. I have integrity and I believe that there are MLMs out there with integrity. Usborne Books, Pampered Chef, Creative Memories...these are a few examples of good companies who provide the MLM business opp to people without compromising integrity. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 10:10 pm: |
|
"Multilevel marketing has its critics, some of whom say an insular community like the Hasidim is especially vulnerable to corporate promises of riches. Robert L. Fitzpatrick, co-author of the 1997 book "False Profits, Seeking Financial and Spiritual Deliverance in Multi-Level Marketing and Pyramid Schemes," says the chance to make as much as $300,000 a year without having to leave the community is "electrifying." But he also says such profit is illusory, and that over 90% of the people who get involved in such businesses will ultimately lose money. Most quit the business within the first year, having spent thousands of dollars on promotional and training material and other business-related necessities, and never moving beyond breaking even, he says.
Critics say part of the problem is simple math. Shaklee writes in a recent brochure, "Discover the Shaklee opportunity: find three who find three." The fallacy in this, detractors say, is that if everyone were successful at finding three who found three, a mere 11 levels deep into the pyramid would yield 177,147 Shaklee salespeople -- more than all the ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Brooklyn.
dave.... www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 24/7 calls returned toll free in N. America and 22 countries. |
righteous_mama
New member
Username: righteous_mama
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.99.180.134
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 12:05 am: |
|
Thank you, Dave...that's insanely interesting. I'm not interested in recruiting...so I suppose this all doesn't apply to me. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 1:21 am: |
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Perhaps "righteous_mama" you see it that way. But by these people offering products through fraudulent schemes and those such as you, unconcerned with “marketing” if they like the product, are supporting these frauds that ultimately ruin families and disrupt whole communities whose children suffer. Sort of like using illicit drugs but not becoming a drug dealer yourself and unconcerned what the purchasing of drugs is doing to communities and families. That's the way I see the situation and dealing with victims of these scams and their families I know it's true.
Believe me there is a real lesson in the ruling of Judge Quigley in the recent Ontario Superior Court Judgment re: attempted $10,000,000 law suit for defamation, posted at my website www.crimebustersnow.com . It can be easily applied to all the crooked scams and cult activities on this entire forum. Crime is crime and fraud is fraud and fraud is crime. So, if you want to support organizations and corrupt corporations because you like what they offer, that is what you support.
And of course your attitude "so I suppose this all doesn't apply to me".... (I beg to differ. Under the circumstances to use a name such as`"righteous_mama" is hardly appropriate. Your defense is nothing short, as they say, of an attempted "cop-out"
dave.... www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 24/7 calls returned toll free in N. America and 22 countries. gatoriad@sympatico.ca |
righteous_mama
New member
Username: righteous_mama
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.99.180.134
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 8:18 pm: |
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It's not a fraud. I'm unsure of what makes you such the authority. Seems you've got it in your craw that any company that is MLM is a fraud. If Shaklee, who has been around for over 50 years now, is such a fraud and fraud equals crime, then why, oh why, has the government not come down on them...at all. Amway, I understand...but there ARE companies that are NOT fraud and maybe you need to realize that.
btw...why is my name bolded. I'm really not that important. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1914
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 2:11 am: |
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Now, "righteous_mama", to answer the same worn out repetitive question posed by fraudsters world over, and incidentally "shot down” when we clashed with a corrupt lawyer at court when he raised much the same as a defense" ... quote... "[If] fraud equals crime, then why, oh why, has the government not come down on them...at all?" By the same token you might ask... "Why, oh why, is the Mafia is still operating???!!! Perhaps you should consider the question of corruption in all of this. Contemplate that, then do your math and "follow the money" and consider changing your pretentious name from "righteous_mama" to i_accept_fraud".
My winning court cases are, as you put it, what "makes me such the authority." That and simple common sense coupled with basic arithmetic, and the fact that that particular lawyer took right off out of the courthouse after he protested "if we were illegal why haven't the police closed us down." He has, for years and still does operate, advertise and hold recruitment meetings on a busy main street with a sign above the fraudulent "business"-(scam).
This wealthy learned lawyer bolted out of the courthouse and dropped his lawsuit rather than face this grade 10 dropout senior citizen and our proof in court. Now we're suing him on behalf of his defrauded victims: a great number of them young students. I do have experience in the court system and the results achieved, I believe, speak for themselves.
And of course you are absolutely right when you state "...but there ARE companies that are NOT fraud and maybe you need to realize that" and I do ... But Shaklee with their pyramid recruitment scheme is not one of them. They are in fact committing a criminal offense of fraud, certainly in Ontario Canada if they use the “find three to find three” pyramid fraud.
I am of course supported in my assertions by Robert Fitzpatrick a recognized authority on pyramid fraud and called as an expert court witness on the subject. You offer nothing but the "parroting" of the scam artists. If you did a modicum of research you would know what the U.S. Federal Trade Commission is proposing with regard to Amway, Shaklee, Arbonie, Tupperware, Mary Kay, Pre-Paid Legal Services and many more. It was written about Sept 13 2006 in the New York Times.
Pyramid fraud, counterfeit goods and fraudulent telemarketing i.e. M.A.D.D. (mothers against drunk drivers) are about the largest illegal frauds sucking money out of Canada’s legitimate economy next to illegal drugs plaguing our country. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 2:17 am: |
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Now, as I said "follow the money" from the crooks to the cops to the politicians. i.e. CimeStoppers uses the same fraudulent telemarketers (Xentel), as M.A.D.D. along with an impressive list of others: Big Brothers etc. the Ontario Police association uses Millennium Teleservices to fraudulently scam for them... (Google those) and they are not the only telemarketers scamming. Then check this.
This from the Canadian Government (Hansard) ....
"Then there was a call centre that was induced to move into the HRDC minister's riding, RMH Teleservices. It got $1 million. It later said that it was just icing on the cake. Now we find that this same prosperous American company has received another $1 million in TJF money to operate another call centre in Sault Ste. Marie.
We have Media Express Telemarketing, which gave $10,000 to the Liberal Party and got nearly a million dollars of the TJF.
We have Superior Industrial Rail, which got over a million dollars from the TJF and the CJF. It just closed its doors on June 9. HRDC said that it needs to meet with the company to find out where the money went and whether it met the terms of the department. This is a good time to try to figure out where the money has gone.
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2332237&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=36&Ses=2
Now I ask you, doesn’t that adequately address your exasperatingly, emphatically stated “gut wrenching” question …“then why, oh why, has the government not come down on them...at all?" The same applies to the fraudulent MLM’s and pyramid schemes. Corrupt cops, lawyers, politicians, accountants, school board officials (scamming their students) and other professionals, government offices, police services by their lack of enforcement of the law, are promoting, benefiting and profiting from the obvious billions in these frauds at the expense of ordinary citizens: just like Albania 1996-98!!! “Follow the money.” Just "follow the money"!!!
Then research how far the tentacles of Amway and other MLM’s reach into the government. From your postings it is obvious you do little research or ignore what you may stumble across and certainly close your mind to any research presented to you. Did you actually read the decision of the Superior Court on my website or do you only absorb the “feel good” “smoke and mirrors” hype of crooks, gangsters and con-artists, "righteous_mama"?
dave.... www.crimebustersnow.com 905-963-3389 24/7 calls returned toll free in N. America and 22 countries. gatoriad@sympatico.ca |
righteous_mama
New member
Username: righteous_mama
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.99.180.134
| | Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:30 pm: |
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My name is not pretentious...not sure why I'm defending myself to you...but it's a play on the fact that I am a ministry student and been called a hippy. Say righteous, like right-jus dude.
That's it. I'm done. |
gatordave
Senior Member
Username: gatordave
Post Number: 1924
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.38.117.34
| | Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 8:02 pm: |
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As a student you should conduct an exhaustive study into Benny Hinn and the rest of the money grabbing ("prosperity ministy") crooks). Follow that money!!! it will take you to pyramid frauds, MLM frauds, Ponzi schemes and outright fraud and deception.
dave www.crimebustersnow.com gatoraid@sympatico.ca 905-963-3389 24/7 calls returned toll free in North America and 22 countries. |
fullofquestions
Junior Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 48
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 11:59 pm: |
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SNAP |
fullofquestions
Junior Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 49
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:01 am: |
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Those MLM scams will leave you broke. |
righteous_mama
New member
Username: righteous_mama
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 68.228.87.124
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:09 am: |
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Snap? |
fullofquestions
Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 54
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:11 am: |
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You know, like BAM. Your right on. |
fullofquestions
Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:12 am: |
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Sorry righteous mama. Cool name. |
getagrip
Advanced Member
Username: getagrip
Post Number: 539
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.77.188.86
| | Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:58 pm: |
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Kaboom! (It's not just a cereal you know) |
fullofquestions
Intermediate Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 159
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 8:51 pm: |
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It slices, it dices, it julianes. |
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