Tape 1, August 16, 1998
Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince L: Testing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Today is the 16th of August,
1998. This is Lawrence Wollersheim, about 5:00 in the afternoon, sitting
with Jesse Prince. We’re just going to talk about his time in
Scientology and ask him different things. And this is my voice, the
other voice will be Jesse’s.
J: The voice he’s referring to is this one right here.
L: OK. Tell me, the other day we were talking about Scientology
tampering with judges. You mentioned that you had been interviewed by
the FBI once before and that they had asked you about it but you didn’t
tell them what was going on. Were you in Scientology?
J: Yes I was. I told them the truth as I understood it at that time.
L: You told them what you knew at that time, the truth as you understood
it at that time. It was concerning a tampering with a judge. What was
that judge’s name?
J: Judge Mary Anna Fouser.
L: This was in a case?
J: A RICO suit brought against David Mayo, the AAC. CSC and RTC brought
the action.
L: What specifically did Scientology do to tamper with this judge, and
if you can just try to describe what your knowledge is, and who was
involved in doing it and if you know what they specifically did, or you
don’t know what they did. Kind of, a person, an action, as much detail
as you can have.
J: What I would like to do is just start at the beginning. Any time a
judge appears in a case in Scientology, good, bad, or indifferent, a
common practice is to do an ODC, particularly if he’s a hostile judge,
or is perceived to be a hostile judge. ODC means overt data
collection. What would happen is, you’d get some guys normally from OSA
Invest, and they would go and get as much public record as they could
about that particular judge.
L: Could you state what OSA Invest is?
J: Office of Special Affairs Investigation Unit. It’s kind of like a
low scale FBI investigotory group that investigates enemies and critics
of Scientology.
L: Great, go on.
J: They do an ODC. If it goes further and the judge is really hostile,
what they will do is go and start interviewing the associates of the
judge, like trying to find out information in an innocuous way, or in a
harsh way, to create intimidation. That’s a common practice, they do it
with every judge. With Mary Anna Fouser, when we got on this case, an
ODC was done on her. They kind of looked up her records as a judge,
looked up her cases, found out where she lives, everything that they
possibly could. Through lawyers and investigators, found as much
personal information as they could about the judge, what she likes, what
she doesn’t like, this kind of thing. Before any case is started, you
have the profile of the judge, you have a profile of a prosecutor, if it
is a prosecutor, or a profile of the opposing litigating attorneys. In
my particular case, I was involved as a witness in the AAC case, I came
on as a witness, as a director of the Religious Technology Center, and a
person that had high credentials in their technological business. We
were in the case and what I was doing in the case was comparing the "NED
for OTs" [stands for "New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans"]
materials to the "NED for OTs" materials that David Mayo himself had
issues. Now, I’m just going to speak as I as thinking at the time. Of
course, I have other ideas about that now. I took and compared the "NED
for OTs" issue #1 and David Mayo’s the "NED for OTs" issue #1, which
were so amazingly similar to what the church had and he produced. Of
course, subsequently, that wouldn’t be a surprise because Mayo wrote it
anyway. At the time I was being a little church person, Mayo wrote 98%
of it based on random crazy notes. At that point, when I was on the
stand, and I brought up, I had it in my jacket pocket, and I pulled out
these papers, and there was an immediate objection from the other
attorneys, I forget their names. The judge had us meet back in
chambers. The opposition attorneys and our attorneys went back in the
chambers, and we just looked at the papers because the objection was
that they hadn’t had a chance to review that evidence. What actually
happened in evidence in chambers is they had a chance to see the notes
that I had written, which were relatively cryptic. We had also procured
the copy of David Mayo’s material to even do the comparison with. He
was holding his material in confidence and we sent investigators in
there. Bob Mithoff was a deep cover plant for us, and he just got
copies of their material so that we could do this. Their organization
was infiltrated in more ways than one, as far as the amount of pressure
and stress that we brought against AAC. Back to Mary Anna Fouser
chambers. In effect, we were looking at these differences and comparing
the material, that was pretty much done in back chambers. I don’t think
the opposition attorneys were very happy about it. Subsequently, when
we came back in and I finished my testimony and Ray Mithoff came up as a
witness and he spoke for a while. We were granted an injunction a TRO
against David Mayo using those materials, which, in effect, closed down
the AAC. Like I say in retrospect, as he wrote 98% of that stuff
anyway, he had all the right in the world to use it. From the tactics
and the things that I just described to you, same thing has subsequently
happened to CAN. You put in deep cover plants that no one ever
suspects, and you just wear them out. What happened is…
L: Can I ask you a specific question, and you will be able to keep your
train of thought?
J: What I’m getting to is the judge tampering part.
L: My question is this, did RTC and Scientology knowingly claim that
these were their copyrights, knowing that they were not their
copyrights, that David Miscavige was the true author of these documents?
J: ..not David Miscavige, David Mayo.
L: David Mayo was the true author of these documents, and that he was
the true copyright holder according to the copyright laws?
J: This is what I know about that. Every one of those issues had DM at
the bottom of it, they were 1978-79 issues. He wrote them all. They
you have LRH/DM, and whoever the typist was. In effect, Mayo sat down
and authored those things. Whether he authored them from LR Hubbard
notes or personal meanings is not anything that I could speak on because
I wasn’t there.
L: You don’t if he did or not.
J: I do know for a fact. I do know, subsequently in the church, in
seeing how they issue materials, a lot of it, it could just be something
with three lines on it, like this from L. Ron Hubbard, they turn it into
a two page bulletin. It’s a process of getting a little piece here, and
a little piece there, and then someone actually composing it and making
it make sense. In its original state.
L: The current practice is that in a bulletin that says it was written
by L. Ron Hubbard may have as little as 2 or 3 lines out of 2 pages.
J: And he’s never seen it or laid eyes on it.
L: OK. Is it your understanding that they know this and yet they claim
the whole policy was written by L. Ron Hubbard?
J: Sure.
L: They present it as completely authored by L. Ron Hubbard. Is it your
understanding that the average staff member, or member of the church,
who receives this policy, with L. Ron Hubbard’s name at the bottom truly
believes that this was written by L. Ron Hubbard?
J: Oh yes, they truly believe it, they have to read it to each other.
If they make a method 9, do a stumble, oh yes. They have a separate
organization out there called RTRC which is the actual organization that
compiles and issues all these letters, these ACLBs, BBs, whatever.
L: It’s basically a manufacturing plant?
J: Right.
L: And it gives the apparency, if I’m understanding this, no matter how
much is written by L. Ron Hubbard, it generates it as if the whole
document was written by L. Ron Hubbard.
J: Exactly. Like you sit down, especially towards the end, and then
some of these concepts and issues are not even anything that L. Ron
Hubbard had to speak on. The reason that I’m speaking about this in
such a way that’s kind of detailed, is because they have an issue
authority network in place in Scientology, where anything that is issued
goes through IA and then is issued to all the orgs. I was the senior
person over issue authority in Scientology during my tenure as Deputy
Inspector General External in RTC. IA was just one area that I had. I
would see these things, see the process. They would compile an issue,
maybe based on 15, 20 other different disrelated things in order to make
a point about a particular subject, and then would say L. Ron Hubbard
wrote this, when in fact, in its original form you could never, it would
never make the sense that it makes when they finish the compilation.
L: Did you ever see them take something that L. Ron Hubbard never wrote
about, never said anything about and create their own opinion, own
interpretation or policy directive? Let’s just say, for example…
J: OT VIII.
L: He never did OT VIII?
J: He had something about OT VIII, and the original I never saw, but a
person that did see the original..
L: Who was that?
J: Vaughn Young. It had no more writing on it than this. But, there
was a lot of other little scraps of paper around. Again, it was a
compilation process.
L: Somebody did this, not L. Ron Hubbard.
J: Oh yes, Ray Mithoff did this.
L: One has no way of knowing Mithoff took whatever notes that were
there, if those notes were really related to OT VIII.
J: Or anything.
L: And yet the church issued OT VII as authored as L. Ron Hubbard from
his old notes, this was his work. There was nothing that said,
assembled by Bob Mithoff.
J: Ray Mithoff.
L: It didn’t have anything like that.
J: It would have RM, it would have LRH/RM and whoever the typist was,
just like the NOTs materials.
L: Did you ever see Scientology take -- like car washing, we know there
is a policy on car washing -- but something like using an automatic
teller, and all of a sudden a policy appears, authored by L. Ron
Hubbard, on something that he never wrote anything on?
J: Like how to do laundry. There was just an insanity about L. Ron
Hubbard’s laundry. These smells, these smells make him crazy. There
was a point where he would have his laundry come to the basin, they
would wash up a bunch of stuff, and send it back out to him. He would
be complaining about the soap, the scratching on the skin, the smell.
So, a whole big research project was done to get un-scented washing
soap. No one in the Sea Org can wear anything with a scent. They still
practice this today even though that stupid son of a bitch is long
dead. Then me, being a smoking person, I end up being up being the last
person on the line to have to smell his stuff. He never complained once
I started that. I brought in an issue authority. It used to be in that
special unit.
L: The research that was done on soaps and cleaning and detergent was
written up as a policy, with his name on it, and he never did the
research, never wrote a line of it, and it was copyrighted under his
name.
J: How to wash shirts and stuff, I mean tubs, big tubs were bought. You
would literally take a brand new shirt and it would be in tatters by the
time you were done, washing the smell out of them, washing the sizing
out of them.
L: We take a little tangent, there’s reasons for this, I will connect it
up as we go through. You will logically get where some of these things
are going. Some of this stuff relates to our court case right here.
They claim that everything, every line, every word, in every policy that
bears the name of L. Ron Hubbard was written by L. Ron Hubbard.
J: That’s just a flat out lie.
L: They’re using that for their copyrights, that all of it belongs to L.
Ron Hubbard and the L. Ron Hubbard estate, and they’re trying to enforce
that with the judge. Let’s go back to Mary Anne Fouser.
J: Now, what was happening is that there was this franticness to get
this TRO against the AAC. They were having some party that weekend.
Just prior to that, we were infiltrating them and doing these little
operations. Gary Clinger actually showed up with the Jewish yamalka on,
and all of these plants were there. We wrote this up and planned it,
executed it. It just made their event a nightmare. They ended up
calling the police because we had secretly rented the place above the
AAC and were bugging it. We knew what they were saying, all the plans,
everything. So, there is an operative upstairs, there is one, Bob
Mithoff, that’s in and out of there, doing everything, plus there were
other females involved. They just never had a chance. We were in such
a panic about, on yeah, and then they got an injunction, once they
discovered these things, they got an injunction against the church for
the harassment and being on the property and coming around. They
actually got the first injunction, which the only cover we had at that
point was Bob Mithoff in there. So, of, this just caused a panic, now
these sons of a bitches got something against the church, and we quickly
have to do this thing and move on this RICO thing because it was looking
bad. We were already in suit with them and we were doing all these
harass productions. It was the weekend.
L: One thing, is it your understanding that to record someone without
their permission is a crime in most states.
J: Yeah.
L: Did they know that this was a crime to bug people’s homes and record
their private conversations without their permission?
J: Sure. That’s not the first time and that’s the difference I can talk
to you about other things. I’ll give you something real rude. There
was a staff member, Bill Finell, kind of strange, the guy just acted
kind of strange, people thought he was strange, he had wife, Holly
Finell, she worked at RTRC. There was a concern that they were going to
blow this that and the other thing. Rick Aznaran went got a bugging
device, a lamp, we had them moved, Vicky had them moved from they were
living to another place where we bought a lamp with a bug in it, so that
we could get some insight on staff members.
L: You bugged your own staff members?
J: Rick and I are sitting out in a field with headphones on, while this
guy and his wife were having sex, doing whatever they’re doing. It was
horrible. They’d go to sleep. This would go on night after night,
after night. It’s beyond…
L: Would you think that tactic had been used on other staff members who
they thought might be blowing things, this is not a rare exception?
J: No.
L: The illegal wiretapping of their own ministers, they are ministers,
staff members, because staff members are now ministers, I believe?
J: Oh yeah, they had to be, some kind of crazy thing came up in the
80’s.
L: So, they are bugging their own ministers without their permission?
J: Yeah, using high tech spy equipment, radio receivers, radio
transmitters, bugging devices.
L: Go on with…
J: OK, it was Friday, too late to get in a motion with the judge. The
whole weekend is going to pass and they’re having a party, and through
intelligence it was discovered that Mayo was going to give these packs
to certain people to start these groups. Robin Scott was one of them,
over in England, Maura [?] Steve Bell Maine [?] in Scotland and England,
and there was some people in Copenhagen, I don’t remember their names.
The church was in a panic about that because they had done their ODC so
very well, they were sending staff members like Lynn Farney and other
OSA people to her house to bring her this motion to try to get it.
Which was not successful, because something happened, security got
pissed off at them, and they didn’t get her to just grant an immediate
TRO and we ended up having to go to court on it, she granted it at that
time.
L: Did she disclose that you had come to her house privately? Did she
disclose that?
J: No, there was never any mention of that.
L: Was there a lawyer with Lynn Farney when they went to approach the
judge privately? Do you have any recollection?
J: No. I don’t think that there was. I don’t think that there was.
L: So, Farney himself went to the judge’s home?
J: Right, standing out there.
L: Did he have something for her to sign?
J: Yeah, he had the papers.
L: And some attorney in Scientology had prepared that?
J: Yes.
L: The security would not let Farney into the house. Continue on with
the story.
J: The following Monday, or Tuesday, I don’t remember which, is where
the story co-joined with what I told you earlier, where we were in court
and went to the judge’s back chambers and got her and got the TRO that
day. Later on an investigation was being done in relationship to that
specific suit. At this time, when that investigation started, I was no
longer in a high position; I’m basically lower than whale shit. It was
explained to me, and I don’t even remember the case, that the church was
being accused of judge tampering. The FBI wanted to talk to me,
specifically, of all damn people, who knew the least, to go in and talk
to them. I just basically went up and told them what I told you. I was
told that some people went out there, and it was an unsuccessful thing,
but beyond that I didn’t know. But, in retrospect, if you look at the
ODC that they do on the judge, on every judge that they get, and how
they then send professionals in to talk to people that are close to
them, to really test the waters, this is the way it works.
L: Are they sending in people like
J: Attorneys.
L: Are they sending people in close to leak out bits of the information
that they’ve collected for the purpose of intimidating the judge?
J: No, first they will try to find out, how does the judge feel about
Scientology. Let some friend of a friend of a friend find out. They’re
paying money, big money, for this information. They will do that and
try to coerce any attorney, "Look, this is what we need, you’ve got an
in, you want to make a little quick money, do this."
L: So, they find out how the judge feels, that’s not illegal, that’s
just investigation. Where do you feel that, what else, did you hear
something else that makes you think that they tampered with this judge.
J: No, I haven’t heard anything else beyond that. I don’t think that
the judge herself, in all honestly, this is my opinion, was that way. I
don’t think she was that way. I think she made a decision based on the
evidence. Here’s stuff that Scientology says is theirs, even they
acknowledge, yes, this was Mayo’s state of mind. He didn’t say, hey, I
wrote these things. He didn’t say that.
L: Still so brainwashed. He didn’t say that, that’s amazing.
J: So it was like, what was she supposed to do?
L: Did you ever hear anything that they in any way told her they had
personal information about her through any source?
J: I know they knew who her husband was, and I knew they just knew
everything about her.
L: OK. Let’s talk about is there any other judge, or members of the
court, that you know that Scientology may have tampered with, bribed,
intimidated?
J: Charles O’Rielly. I think that they had him beat up one night in a
club. This was done in conjunction with Gene, their PI.
L: Gene Ingram.
J: Gene Ingram. There was some club. This was during the trial, I guess
it was your trial, as a matter of fact. They were in Los Angeles, and
there was this club that Charles O’Rielly liked to go to. It was known
that he liked to go there. They were just insane about this Charles
O’Rielly. Specifically, I remember this, the day after Charles was beat
up, no, I back it up. Marty Rathbun and Gene Ingram were heavily into
following Charles from the time the courtroom was over. Wasn’t it
Breckenridge that was the judge?
L: No it wasn’t Breckenridge, it was Swearinger.
J: Swearinger. They hated that judge and they hated Charles O’Rielly,
because apparently…. I was not necessarily involved in that, because
that was not anything that had anything to do with trademarks, and I was
primarily concerned with trademarks in my executive position in the
church.
L: What did you hear?
J: What I was hearing days prior to Charles actually getting beat up,
and then days after, was, this like something between David Miscavige,
Marty Rathbun and Gene Ingram. Because I was at ASI on other matters, I
would hear some of this stuff. But Dave Miscavige made it very clear
that this was on a need to know basis, what Gene Ingram and Marty were
doing in relation to Charles O’Rielly going to this club that he liked
to go to. Days prior to it they were talking, "yeah, he really runs his
month somebody’s going to beat him up. He’s really loud and boisterous,
he’s such an asshole and we had so and so in there and so and so…."
L: So and so in the club?
J: Yeah, other investigators, other people watching him, tricking him,
doing things to deceive him, like buying him a drink, talking to him.
Then it seemed like there was a day when they said, we know where this
guy’s at, we know what we’re going to do, in relation to Charles
O’Rielly. He’s going to get a big surprise. This is what I remember,
specifically, and then…
L: Was David Miscavige saying this?
J: No, Marty saying it to David Miscavige and Gene Ingram was there, and
I’m there and Vicky’s there. Then Dave would just be elated about this,
he’d be so happy, "OK, OK, OK." Then now, the next day, "Charlie got
beat up, oh man it was so funny, if you could have seen see his face,"
Marty’s telling this to me and Vicky, no it was me and Vicky was there,
Dave Miscavige was there, Norman Starkey was there. They were just
hooting and hollering and thinking this was the greatest thing that
happened since sliced bread. Gene Ingram was there and he wouldn’t
speak when I was there, but Marty would kind of come and tell the
story. Gene Ingram was kind of kept away from everybody. It is my
belief that they orchestrated that confrontation that O’Rielly had.
L: Did Marty or anyone ever say that anything which directly lead you to
believe that they were involved in getting Charlie beat up?
J: It seemed, like I said, in days prior, they were orchestrating
something that would set something off like that. The details escape
me. It was like a hard meeting every time, "OK, what did he do, where
did he go? OK, this is what we’re going to do, that is that we’re going
to do." They’re planning it, so it seems like it was orchestrated for
that to happen.
L: If you remember more details abut that, let me know, if you remember
any conversations, anything anybody specifically said…
J: They was like, why are you even saying this around Jesse? He was so
happy, had to tell someone.
L: David Miscavige?
J: Yes.
L: Did he say, "Charlie got what he deserved", did he say "Charlie got a
surprise"?
J: No, he would be just insanely laughing, happy.
L: Did you ever hear anything about Judge Swearinger’s dog being drown?
Nothing at all. He had a little collie that somebody climbed over the
fence and drowned the dog in the pool.
J: Maybe Marty. But it’s just faint. It may take me a day or a day or a
half after we have this conversation to remember.
L: I’m going to throw some stuff out that you may have never heard. One
of the biggest things that happens to people who stand up to Scientology
is their pets start dying. Their animals disappear or die, it’s been a
pattern through the IRS investigators who were having problems with
their pets, I’ve had problems with pets. Other people who have stood up
to Scientology. Do you have any knowledge about anyone every talking
about hurting an animal because it’s not a felony and it sends a signal,
it’s close to the family, and it really sends a terror signal.
J: Nothing like that, not in those terms, but I remember being in an ASI
boardroom -- and again this is something that will come to me more
strongly later -- where Marty was talking the godfather movie when the
horse head appeared. He was alluding to doing this to other people that
were critics of Scientology, scaring people by doing it. I do remember.
L: Do you remember any more specifics about what he said?
J: I remember, this is what I remember. David Miscavige was there, Norm
was there, I was there, Vicky was there, Marty was there, some other,
maybe somebody from OSA, I’m trying to think who it would have been.
Maybe Edith Bucaley, and Klaus Bucaley used to be over the OSA network.
I remember at a break period, Marty bringing it up. I think one of the
attorneys was there, I don’t know if it was John Peterson. It could have
been Joe, I doubt it.
L: Joe Yanni?
J: Yeah, because Joe used to be an attorney for the church. Anyway, we
were in that meeting and they were making a joke about how intense that
scene was, and maybe perpetrating something similar to that on other
people. I remember Dave saying, look, shutup, don’t talk about that
kinda stuff. That’s what I remember right now, specifically about it.
I may remember more about it later. That’s what comes to mind now.
L: Do you recall any other instances involving another, you talked about
Charlie, involving any lawyers, any judges, any clerks, sometimes to get
a clerk to bury a document, change a document, change an evidence. Do
you ever remember hearing anything about altering the court records or
tampering with a judge, or intimidating a judge, or letting them know
that they have blackmail on them.
J: I think they did something to try to intimidate Judge Breckenridge.
I think they did. The way that I think it was done, and because I
wasn’t directly involved I can’t tell you, "It happened Sunday at
12:15," that type of thing. What they did was influence, just like they
do now. They go to your friends and family and say, well, it’s not them
that’s doing it, they are paying people to do it, like have a lawyer go
and say, "Hey, you are good friends with so and so, why don’t you…
Maybe this Breckenridge is getting a little bit out of hand." Try to
get the judge’s peers to say, "Hey look, you’re out of line." This is
what a program or operation that they had going for Breckenridge, to
discredit him as a judge. I think they took articles out, they did
quite a bit during that time.
L: They actually paid people to go to his friends and ask the friends or
the associates of the judge to go to the judge and tell him he was out
of line, with the way he was treating Scientology?
J: Right.
L: That’s interesting, that is very interesting.
J: That’s part of their policy, the ODC, they use that as a form of
intimidation in and of itself. Like Lynn Farney would be a key one that
would orchestrate that kind of shit, where they would just say he’s
slandering Scientology and try or dig up some dirt. Dig up crimes, he
did this, he drinks, he runs around with whores, whatever.
L: Would they give that to the people that they were trying to
influence, that they were trying to get to influence the judge? In
other words would they say,
J: They would give that to friends, family associates, spread that kind
of idea.
L: What they picked up in their investigation?
J: To back the judges off.
L: This is an important subtlety, because if they are gathering
information about the judge’s sex life, his business life, his credit,
anything that would embarrass or discredit him, then giving it to his
associates.
J: Let me finish. They would do ODC and CDC.
L: CDC is what?
J: Covert data collection.
L: Tell us about covert data collection.
J: Now ODC, you can go and get public records; CDC is going around and
interviewing friends, associates, somehow getting ahold of bank records,
somehow getting ahold of phone records.
L: When you say somehow, would they obtain these in a legal manner, to
the best of your knowledge?
J: No. They would pay people to do it for them.
L: They would pay someone else.
J: ….like a private investigator, if he said, "I can do this, I can get
this."
L: I can get illegal bank records, illegal phone records. They would
knowingly pay him, he would tell the church, "I can get these illegal
records," and the church would pay them. The people that would pay them
are the attorneys.
J: It would come through OSA, and the attorneys would pay the private
investigators for investigation. It was like it was all legal, it looks
all perfectly fine, but it would go from OSA to the attorneys they hired
to the investigators, and that’s how they get their information.
L: Would the investigators tell the attorneys that they could get these
illegal bank records and phone records, or would they tell…
J: Let me lay it out for you, OK. This is how it would be done. They
had certain investigators, it’s like a network, Gene Ingram being the
main one. He knows and works with all of these others. The thing would
happen like this, "Hey Gene, it would be nice if we could get his bank
records or his phone numbers to see who he’s calling." Or whatever
else.
L: Who would ask that?
J: Person in, well, this is how they mask and do this hypothetical
situation. Like Lynn Farney, who’s assigned to a case would say to an
attorney, "Would it be helpful if we knew such and such about that
judge, or another attorney, like if we knew, if we came up with
information that says he hires prostitutes every other weekend or he’s
cheating on his wife, or whatever? Would that help us, or he’s already
prejudiced against Scientology and he’s been saying whatever." Whatever
kind of dirt they could dig up, an attorney would say, "Yeah, yeah, that
would be helpful." Scientology would give a hypothetical situation to
attorneys, "If we had this information, would it help our case move
along?" "Yes." Of course, he knows what they’re talking about. So
then they go to a person like Gene Ingram and say, "Look, let’s figure
this out, we need to know this about this guy, where need to know
where’s he at, we need to know who he’s calling, we need phone records,
we need this kind of stuff."
L: They would actually tell Gene, "We need the phone records, the bank
records."
J: Yep, right. And then to Gene, "Who can get it?" Well, Gene, "I know
so and so and so, he can do it, he can do it, but it’s gonna cost you."
So Gene would set it up, have the act done. Then they would tell the
attorneys, "We’re going to get this information, we’re hired this person
who comes to your office and you pay them." They just basically
shelling money through.
L: A couple of important questions: Who would generally tell Gene
Ingram to go out and get phone records and bank records? What person?
J: Marty Rathbun, Lynn Farney, I’m talking about during my period of
time. Lynn Farney would do it, and then there was a guy, Ben. Ben
somebody from OSA. Ben Shaw?
L: Ben Shaw? OK. Did they know it was illegal to obtain bank and phone
records.
J: No, see, of course. But it’s part of their policy, ODC/CDC.
L: They’re going to get whatever they can, but the important
distinction, did they know..
J: I can’t speak for everyone’s mind. They knew it was illegal, but
they knew how to do it so they would never get caught at it.
L: They knew it was illegal, they asked for illegal documents, they paid
attorneys to break the law and obtain these illegal documents…
J: They didn’t pay attorneys, the attorneys just shelled the money to
the investigator.
L: So, they didn’t pay the investigator, they didn’t do it directly. The
lawyers did.
J: The attorneys do.
L: Now, did the lawyers, this is an important distinction, did the
lawyers know that Scientology was telling the attorneys, telling the
investigators to go get bank records and phone records?
J: Of course.
L: They knew it. Name some of the attorneys that knew.
J: Earle Cooley knew what the deal was on everything. John Peterson,
who is dead, knew everything. Moxon, as he was coming up and along, he
kind of came up through Invest, he came up in that muck, in that filth.
L: He knew. How about…
J: OK, go ahead.
L: Heller, Larry Heller?
J: Larry Heller, big one, yes of course. Larry Heller, Sherman Linske,
his little brother.
L: Drescher?
J: That’s not one that I’m familiar with.
L: How about the Yingling group? Monique Yingling?
J: I don’t know, I’d have to see some stuff.
L: That’s a new name. Any other Scientology attorneys that you knew who
knew their private investigators were going out and getting illegal
documents and they were paying them for them? The illegal documents,
the phone records… Joe Yanni’s OK, leave him off. Do you want to repeat
that?
J: No, I’m never going to speak against Joe.
L: Joe’s OK, I deal with him all the time, so does Margaret. We’ve been
through all of this.
J: I don’t want to say anything about him, without his permission.
L: Did these bank records, I’ve had my bank cracked three times.
J: It’s not hard.
L: Three times, with codes on it. Somebody is paying money to get the
bank records. They ain’t getting it from a teller.
J: Do you want to open that can of worms? Get their lead counsel and
all their sub-counsels and subpoena, I want to see how much money you’re
paying investigators. You will find that to be an inordinate amount of
money that the attorneys themselves are paying.
L: How much do you think they pay for illegal bank records? What do you
think, $2,000, $5,000? Any kind of a guestimate?
J: That was on a need to know basis. Everyone didn’t have that
information.
L: Question, when they would obtain, when the lawyers would get the
investigators to go out and get the records…
J: You’re not listening to me. Lawyers had nothing to do with it. The
church would go directly to their lead investigators and say, this is….
L: So, they would go to the church, and not even the attorneys? The
attorneys were paying blind?
J: Right.
L: Holy shit.
J: Yes. They were just told, we hired him, pay the money, boom. They
were just used.
L: That’s how they run the scams.
J: They were just used to pay to make it look legal.
L: They knew they were…
J: Attorneys don’t even know what they have going on, and they don’t
want to know and they tell them. That would be good, how you get it is
your business, don’t tell me about it, but I’ll pay some investigators
and if you’ve got some information I can use, great.
L: So, they’re paying the investigator to get the stuff any way they
can, they know that the investigators are aren’t obtaining it legally,
but because they don’t see the documents, they’re just writing the
checks, so it all has the apparancy of legality, at the attorney’s
office and it has the appearance because Scientology isn’t paying for
this illegal information, they’re just getting it.
J: Yeah but Scientology is paying for it. It’s coming from…
L: It’s being laundered through the attorneys?
J: Right.
L: So, Scientology would get the bank records, the phone records, what
other illegal records would they obtain that you know?
J: They’d get your criminal history, that’s so damn easy to get, any
kind of record.
L: Like a sealed court record, confidential record, criminal records,
they’d get those?
J: What I’m saying is they would get, if they wanted to know your
criminal history, they’d have it like that [Snaps fingers]. Now a
normal person can’t get that. It’s not supposed to be available.
L: What about other parts of the covert data collection? What other
things would they do, what other types of information would they
accumulate?
J: Tax records, financial statements majorly, phone records.
L: Tax records, IRS 1040s, like your IRS records?
J: Yeah, they would know, they could get that. They could get whatever.
L: OK.
J: OK, let’s take a break. I’m done with this today.
Tape 2, August 24, 1998
Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince L: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Today is the 24th of August, a Monday. This is
Lawrence Wollersheim. I’m with Jesse Prince . We’re talking about his
experiences with Scientology. Jesse, I just want to emphasize again
what’s important is that you just tell us just the facts, just the way
they were, what you heard, what you saw, what you did, what other people
did, names, as much of the dates as possible, as specific as possible,
and occasionally I’ll ask you questions about certain things, and we’ll
just go from there. What I had you read is a document called "Death,
Psychosis and Scientology" which is fragments of a confidential database
about members of Scientology, who either died mysteriously, attempted or
committed suicide, went psychotic, or abused some way inside
Scientology. Because Scientology compartmentalizes all the bad news,
only its intelligence department and a few people, so that other people
don’t know when things are going wrong and things are severe, the only
way you can reconstruct this is to try to get everybody’s little piece,
like a puzzle and put it together. You would be amazed over the years,
how many little pieces fit together that have given families and other
people some understanding of what happened to their child, or what
happened to their husband or wife. With that introduction, let’s just
go right into it. You made some yellow sticky notes. Just tell us what
you know, you can read the point and just discuss anything that you
remember.
J: The first thing that I’ll speak on is [Reading] "Flo Barnett, a.k.a.
Miller, who died from several gunshot wounds. She was David Miscavige’s
mother-in-law. Just before her death she was reported to have had an
argument with David Miscavige and threatened to go public and sue
Scientology." What I know about this, I guess happened right during the
time of her death, no, actually, it was a little bit before because I
was auditing Shelly Miscavige.
L: Shelly is one of his twin sisters?
J: Shelly Miscavige is David Miscavige’s wife, or was during that time
period, I assume she still is. I was doing auditing on her, and she
brought up the fact that she had a black person in her family. She
proceeded to tell me about this, that her father-in-law was black, and
living with her mother. She told me that they seemed to get along very
well, he was one person that understood her and took care of her. She
said that some people said that he took her money. She mentioned to me
that he just had a job fixing things, he would go out and fix things for
people. He didn’t have a regular like 9-5 job where he went out and
reported to. As far as she could see, he took care of her mother very
well. She was happy to have a black person in there. She mentioned
that Dave Miscavige had met him and wasn’t very approving of him, other
family members kind of shunned the mother.
L: The mother is Flo Barnett?
J: Yes, because she was married to this black person. Then, Pooh, who I
only know as Pooh and Sarge, which is Shelly’s sister, who was one of
the two couples that were with L. Ron Hubbard at the ranch shortly
before and during, and all the time before and during and after his
death, working as his personal maids, servant people. Then, I remember
talking with her and speaking to David Miscavige after the woman had
died. Whereby I had already known that David Miscavige didn’t care for
the father-in-law, but then Shelly told me – and she wasn’t as talkative
about it as she had talked to me about other things, because she would
speak to me all the time – but she told me that her mother had committed
suicide and had shot herself several times with a rifle. I just looked
at her dead in the eye and said, "How in the hell can a person kill
themselves and take a rifle and shoot themselves several times." She
just looked at me and said, "I don’t know, I really don’t know how she
died, but she had several gunshot wounds." She said that Dave Miscavige
was saying that the father-in-law did it. Well, she didn’t believe the
father-in-law did it, because they loved each other. She was quite
upset about it. I couldn’t get her to talk about. I was the person
auditing her, so you know, we do all of these Scientology routines you
know.
L: She wouldn’t talk at all about it?
J: No, she was just kind of in a state of deep sadness. She cried quite
a bit over it. It just didn’t make sense that her mother shot herself
more than one time with a damn rifle. And how that could even happen,
she just wouldn't talk beyond that, beyond just is there an error, she’d
break about it, is there a problem, is there a withold about it, that
kind of thing.
L: What about…
J: …locating all of this stuff to alleviating it.
L: Did you hear anything between a conflict between David and the
mother-in-law? Did you hear anything that would say this is true or
not, the idea that she was getting auditing from David Mayo and David
Miscagive was very upset about it? Did you hear anything like that?
J: Yes, yes, yes, now that you bring this up. You see, because during
this time period is when we had Bob Mithoff in there as a plant, with
David Mayo and it was known that Flo was messing around with these
people, receiving stuff. Yes, it was. Yes, he was upset about that.
L: Do you have any knowledge of any kind of a covert action on Flo
Barnett to get her back, or to get her to stop, or to just get her away
from the daughter and get her completely disconnected from the daughter,
his wife?
J: Yes, I do, I do know that was done. In the church, there were
several different investigative areas, all run by a single source, Dave
Miscagive. As you say, information is compartmentalized. I would just
know so much, the next person would know so much, the next person would
know something else.
L: Was David Miscagive technically what they call PTS because he had a
mother-in-law, of his wife who was receiving squirrel auditing?
J: David Miscagive was taking direct action concerning that situation
himself along with Marty Rathbun.
L: Marty Rathbun was involved?
J: Yes.
L: Do you have any actual knowledge of what they might have done if they
did do anything to Flo Barnett?
J: What I know is when that situation came up with Flo Barnett, it was
taken off all the normal investigative lines, and like how information
would go back and forth, it was all isolated to ASI and Marty, and
specifically what he was doing with PI’s and stuff. It did not come up
any more.
L: Do you believe that private investigators were involved in that, with
Flo Barnett?
J: Absolutely. Yes, I do.
L: If there is anymore, let me know, if not, let’s go on to the next
one. Anything else?
J: I guess the only significant point about that one is that part of the
investigation, when it came up that Flo, you see, because I do believe
it came up as I recall this, it came up based on operations that people
that were under me were doing.
L: So it was taken away from you and your covert operations.
J: Right, when her name came up as a person discovered in there,
anything that had to do with Flo Barnett, we were no longer were allowed
to cover. It was specifically taken over.
L: Let’s go on to the next one.
J: Next one is #9, "John Colletto. SO Stat, became psychotic and
suicidal while on OT III. Very shortly after he shot and killed his
wife, Diane Colletto to death. This occurred in 1979, in front of Ashoe
in Los Angeles. Shortly afterward he killed him self. The GO made great
efforts to keep the whole thing silent." Well, I’ve written a page about
that already.
L: We’ve got that. What auditing was he on? Let me bring up why I ask
you what auditing ethics actions RPF. Having being on the RPF yourself,
you probably have gone to those points.
J: I was there with him when he came into the RPF.
L: He was on the RPF?
J: Oh, yes. I was dealing with him.
L: Did he go psychotic on the RPF?
J: This is how it happened. He came in visibly upset, very upset, and
he was being physically moved from one place to another like he was
surrounded by a group of people from the GL that actually brought him up
to the RPF. Andre received him as a bocen, I received him as a deputy
bocen stewards and supplies, and the RPF MAA was either Harry Paneer or
Dick Jones at the time. We would receive every person coming in. I
recall when John Colletto came in, he was very upset. There was a rally
form that people had to go on, and I actually personally spoke to him,
just trying to find out what’s going on. He told me he was upset
because Scientology had ordered separation of him and his wife. They
were saying that he was SP, and this guy was like, I could see him
losing it, or had lost it. He was seriously stressed, seriously upset,
seriously in disagreement, underneath the surface was a rage that was
going to come out. You could just see it.
L: Was he physically restrained by the GO people?
J: Yes.
L: Was he physically restrained on the ship? Was he ever held from
leaving?
J: We’re not talking about the ship, this happened at the blue complex.
L: Oh, at the blue complex. Like he tried to leave and he was
physically retrained?
J: Oh yes, by other RPF people.
L: Repeatedly?
J: Whenever he tried it. He literally wasn’t let out of the building
for a while. He was watched by 4 or 5 people until he. Then you could
kind of see he cooled off a minute, and got white armband. He just
played the game, looking in retrospect. He just played the game, and
when he got that white armband and was allowed to go outside that was
it, he was gone.
L: Was he under lock-down prior?
J: Yes.
L: He was locked down so that he could leave the premises on his own
free will?
J: The way it was, was we were on the 7th floor of a complex in one
wing. There was only two ways out of there, unless you go out the
window. There was a person at each, you know, like the QMs at night,
that would guard the door so that no one, not only him, but no one else
would get out without notice.
L: Would you feel that he was held against his will?
J: Very much so. He did not want to be there.
L: Did you ever hear of him of having any kind of a… I don’t know if
you had access… The only time I’m going to ask you about PC folders is
when it relates to criminal activity or people being physically harmed
or mentally harmed. I’m not interested in what people did in the past
life, and their sexual things, it’s just not the issue. Where there may
have been knowledge of the organization knowing that the person was
having psychotic fits or threatening, and they did nothing besides lock
him up against his will.
J: Well, this is a classic situation.
L: Did you know of anything that would make a reasonable person who was
auditing him, or his CS, or ethics officer, believe this guy was
threatening to commit a violent act and was borderline psychotic or
psychotic?
J: Yes, he was all of that. When he came there he had already
threatened to kill her, it was known. He had already said that before
coming to the RPF, that was told to the RPF/MAA. I’m trying to think of
the guy’s name who told me, who said it from the GO.
L: So the GO had already known?
J: The GO brought him there, they had already known that he had made a
death threat against his wife, they had already known, they had
classified him as being psychotic.
L: So he was classified by the organization as psychotic?
J: Yes.
L: ..and held against his will in a locked building?
J: In a guarded building.
L: Was he receiving any auditing, was he on the confidential levels?
Nothing about his case level, did you know what his case level was? Was
he an OT III?
J: No, I didn’t know anything. At that time I was nothing. I hadn’t
done any of those things, I didn’t know anything about it.
L: Let’s go on to the next thing.
J: You’re going to put the rest of the story with this.
L: Yes.
J: "#10, Bob Schafner was an OT III."
L: Actually, why don’t you put it on the tape right now, about what you
know of this guy who shot and killed his wife and Marty Rathbun being
there, just a quick condensation.
J: I’ll just condense it quickly. After he received his white armband,
which means, in Scientology, that in a nutshell, they’ve influenced you
enough so that you’re not going to do anything outside of what they tell
you to do. He was running around with his white armband and he was
saying how great it was and how he was going to get redeemed. But, I
could see it in his eyes that was not the case. I could see it in his
eyes that he was extremely unsettled on this matter with his wife. It
was within a day or two after receiving his white armband he was gone,
gone, gone. Now in the RPF, John Colletto, blew, all went to hell,
lower conditions for everyone because he blew. Specifically the RPF/MA,
who I believe was Harry Paneer at the time. Some days passed. We were
up on the 7th floor, I guess it was a study period, heard these
gunshots. We all ran out to look, and there was a car, I believe it was
a little white car, and a bunch of people circling around it. People
were saying, "John Colletto!" We knew that he said he was going to kill
his wife. Word came up, John Colletto had just murdered Diane Colletto,
and ran off. Now the police and everyone was looking for him. Then the
GO, the Guardians Office people came running upstairs to make us get
away from the window so that we couldn’t view the carnage below. Within
a few days of that, or maybe a week, I was told by a person from the GO,
I think it was Tom somebody, that John Colletto had been found dead of
self-inflicted wounds from the same weapon that he used to kill his wife
with, in the Hollywood Hills with a suicide note, blaming it on
Scientology.
L: Blaming it on Scientology.
J: Yeah.
L: Did this ever reach the newspapers?
J: No, not that I know, but I’m incarcerated myself.
L: So you wouldn’t know. OK, I’m going to ask a couple things. What was
the cover story that they generated around this?
J: I have no clue.
L: Do you have any idea what they told Diane’s parents?
J: No. I was in the RPF.
L: OK. Do you think, this is a tough question, do you think that the GO
might have went out hunting for this guy?
J: I know for a fact they did. Police, everyone was looking for him.
L: Do you think the GO went out to find him using their own files, to
try to track him down to where he might be?
J: You, that would be utterly my opinion, but yes, I do think so.
Considering all the things the GO used to be doing, even down to LSD in
the toothpaste, it was their priority to find him.
L: It was their priority, to find him before the police, or for the
police.
J: Just find him.
L: You never heard anything about the GO being… The guy is found with a
note that is incriminating Scientology, that they caused that. We’ll
just leave it that. Let’s go on to the next one.
J: [Reading] "Bob Schafner was an OT III and having problems. He rode a
bike under a truck, dying instantly in 1987 or 1988." I heard about
this incident, but I remember Bobby Schafner from before, which I also
did in the write-up. Bobby and Cindy Schafner, they were constantly
harassed about their relationship in that they wanted to have children,
and children were really frowned upon and looked down upon. Bobby
Schafner was the kind of guy that did the electrical kind of stuff, kind
of a good all around guy. I remember specifically, we were on this
schedule where we had to work for 30 hours, and only sleep for 3 hours.
L: So you worked for 30 hours, and slept for 3. How long did this go
on?
J: Couple weeks.
L: A couple weeks, 30 hours on, 3 hours off.
J: People were literally falling over.
L: Schafner was on this schedule.
J: Yes. He ended up cutting one of his fingers off. He went to the
hospital. He was so glad to go to the hospital. I remember asking him
why, he said, "because I got a chance to sleep. I didn’t even feel it,
I was so out of my mind when it happened, because in the schedule I
didn’t know what was going on. I got a chance to sleep and woke up and
found my finger gone."
L: Why were they working him like this?
J: All of us, 125 people were being worked like this.
L: All on the RPF at this time?
J: Yes.
L: So he was worked to the point, 30 hours on, 3 hours off, that he then
cut his finger off accidentally?
J: Right. People are operating major heavy equipment. He went to
sleep. Then I remember it came up as an issue. They got married, I
believe on the RPF, and it came up as an issue, they were like once a
week, they would get a chance to be together as a couple, and have sex.
They had done this, and now Cindy Schafner was pregnant. She was being
talked to quite a bit about how being pregnant is a bad thing, you
shouldn’t have kids. I know Bobby was very much crazy over that point.
I think he may have been Jewish or something, I’m not sure. I think he
may have been. He had deep kind of family morals. His concept of
family went beyond what was being forced on him by Scientology. He had
a stronger connection. He spoke to me about how important it was to
have kids and stuff like that. Then they didn’t want him to have kids,
and he was constantly in ethics. It was like, you’d just see him with
his head in his hands all the time.
L: Were their penalties if you had kids?
J: Yep.
L: What kind of penalties.
J: Lower conditions, constant lower conditions.
L: If you got pregnant and had kids you would have to work off a lower
conditions and do extra work and everything else?
J: Right.
L: Were they trying to convince his wife to…
J: ...to have abortion, yes.
L: Were they being forceful about trying to?
J: Yeah, screaming at them, and "why are you so selfish to have a
child."
L: Did she eventually have an abortion?
J: I don’t recall because, shortly after that experience, all the work
was done in the complex, so they started feeding the people back into
the organizations. You see, during this time, everyone was making like
$4.30 a week. But after everything was completed in the complex, they
sent the mission in to start putting people back into the
organizations. He was from Asho, and they sent him back to Asho. I had
seen him briefly afterwards, and I do believe him and Cindy had a child
together.
L: So he got off the RPF and this thing about the accident, of what
happened to him, this was after he was back at Asho?
J: Right.
L: Do you know anything about how it happened?
J: No, I don’t. I remember talking to Bobby Schafner after we had both
been out, because I was the person now, who took the majority of the
people who had been in the RPF to make sure that they continued their
co-auditing. They set up this board called the co-auditor, and I was in
there as a technical person. I would see him and I would say, "How’s it
going?" He would tell me being at Asho was just like being in RPF, same
schedule, not sleeping, not eating, screaming at people, people
screaming at him all the time. Made to feel bad that he had even been
on the RPF. He just said that he wasn’t all that happy.
L: You think he was working such hours that his judgment could have been
impaired because of lack of sleep?
J: …and food, and nutrition.
L: Lack of sleep and lack food.
J: Yeah.
L: Let’s go on to the next one.
J: OK. Phoebe Moro. I have very little to add about Phoebe Moro beyond
that I was there when she passed. I don’t know what happened to her, or
what her situation was, but I know she was being audited up until the
day she died, and they were doing this let the body go kind of thing
with her, just like die.
L: Auditing to help her die.
J: Right.
L: Did she have cancer, was she terminally ill?
J: She was terminally ill?
L: Do they sell auditing to people who are terminally ill with the hope
of cure?
J: They’re not supposed to, but I’ve seen it time and time again.
L: Tell me what you saw.
J: When I was at Flag, as a cramming officer, you would often get people
coming in that were terminally ill, but of course, they could petition
to get well. There was this guy, his name was Skip somebody. He had a
disk removed from his back, he could barely walk. I ended up auditing
him for a while. He was always in so much pain, that let alone
auditing, just sitting a chair was just a nightmare. Yeah, you had
these kind of people on there. There were ones with cancer, I heard,
why it would be beyond me to say the name of this one, the name of that
one.
L: Do you remember the names of anyone that you knew that were
terminally that were being sold auditing while they were terminally ill
to help them cure their illness, like even subtle, any kind of method of
giving a person who is in a desperate situation false hope to get them
to buy a bunch of auditing, let me know.
J: That’s all I know about that. [Reading] "John Peterson, formerly one
of Scientology’s leading attorneys." What I know about John Peterson is,
he was the kind of attorney that Scientology really used as much as they
possibly could, and then they made fun of him. I believe he was gay.
They hired him and they would use him to pay for investigations that he
knew very little of. In other words, people like Marty Rathbun, Gary
Clinger, and other people that had much experience in dealing with
private investigators and calling the ops, having them do things, this
was… John Peterson was like the guy that all the money went through.
That’s majorly what he was used for. At a lot of the major meetings, I
guess he was satisfying his conscience of trying to have some idea of
the magnitude of things that were being done in his name, with the
amount of money that was being funneled through him to pay private
investigators to do these ops. To pay Bob Mithoff, everyone was paid.
L: Do you have any idea how much these people were paid? Any round
estimates for different operations or different projects?
J: $15,000, $20,000 to Bob Mithoff.
L: For how long a time?
J: A month, a month and a half
L: For a month and a half to infiltrate a rival church, to destroy…
J: Steal records…
L: steal records…
J: provide mis-information.
L: Did he help bug the place?
J: No, but I know he broke in. He got it where they had their secret
materials locked up, he actually broke in there and stole their
materials. Planting mis-information within the group, and being
generally secretively disruptive.
L: Was David Mayo’s group considered a competitor religious group?
J: Yes, only in the field of LT levels major.
L: Was there any one inside the church of Scientology who you know who
said, "we need to destroy this religious group that David Mayo is
running?"
J: Sure.
L: Who?
J: David Miscavige.
L: They literally said, "we need to destroy the AAC?"
J: Right. Vicky Azaran. I myself said we need to get rid of him.
L: Was there any discussion about what you would do to destroy this
rival religious group?
J: Yes. There were mention of just running it into financial ruin by
just running operatives, covert operations, suing, endless litigation to
bankrupt them.
L: Did anyone ever actually say, that you remember who and what, that we
want to plant electronic eavesdropping equipment in this organization?
J: Yes.
L: Who said that?
J: I’m not sure who said it, but I know who did it.
L: Who did it?
J: Gary Clinger.
L: Gary Clinger.
J: Right. He rented an apartment above the ACC and used sound listening
devices to hear what was going on downstairs.
L: So, Gary Clinger was a part of the church of Scientology?
J: In the Religious Technology Center, one person that was directly
underneath me in doing investigations.
L: He was in intelligence?
J: He was an intelligence case officer.
L: Did David Miscavige see information regarding illegal surveillance?
J: On a daily basis.
L: So he was reviewing this, knew this was illegal?
J: I was the person who would actually get the reports written from the
case officers. It was my job to take the case officer reports from RTC
to ASI for Lyman, Marty, Dave Miscavige.
L: So all three of them were getting those reports?
J: Yes.
L: And they had knowledge of the illegal activities going on?
J: Yes. I would get intelligence reports from the OSA network of some
of their operatives, not all.
L: So you had numerous operatives from different operatives.
J: Numerous case officers from different operations reporting daily.
L: Is it reasonable to say that OSA had a few of their people in there,
you had one of your people. I’ve been told by another operative who came
out of OSA that they always run on threes. Usually three operatives who
don’t know on each other, so they have plausible, deniability and if
they lose one they’ve got the others who can be used as back-ups and
also verification that one isn’t lying to them.
J: Totally correct. I would get reports from one incident from three
different viewpoints, and they would never state who the agent was, and
they would report it pretty much like the news. Sources say blah, blah…
They would say eyes only. When you read the report you just
automatically shredded it, so that there was never a compilation of
intelligence reports. The rule, shred them.
L: You shredded a lot of reports?
J: Every day.
L: Did you ever receive a report that they had planted false documents
inside of this religious competitor, David Mayo’s group? That Bob
Mithoff had planted, or someone had planted false documents inside the
organization?
J: That part I honestly don’t recall. I do know that Bob Mithoff stole
financial records and turned them over to the church.
L: Stole the financial records?
J: Stole or copied them and sent them.
L: Of this competitive religious..
J: Because we know how much money they were making every week and we
knew who they were auditing. Also we were doing ops on the people who
were going to the AAC, to discourage them from going..
L: You were doing covert operations on the members of this faith, this
religious splinter group, breakoff group, to convince them not to go
into this organization.
J: Right, we would generally harass or threaten them.
L: Harass or threaten. Can you be more specific on how you would harass
or threaten or try to convince them to stay away?
J: Multiple phone calls, following, we had a private investigator to
follow them around.
L: Was it obvious following to intimidate?
J: Yes.
L: It was done deliberately just to intimidate the person.
J: Yeah, I remember, this one time where we actually got David Mayo on
TV. He thought he was doing a television program, this is something
Gene Ingram arranged. He was sitting there, they had the lights, camera
and all this stuff, they just made him look like a complete fool. There
was never any TV, there was never anyone interested in what he was
doing. He surely thought it was. That was a common operation, as I’m
recalling here. To send someone as a concerned reporter from some
newspaper who is going to help you expose their terrible things that
Scientology is using, even just how bad you’re trying. When, in fact
this is simply a private investigator.
L: Trying to get how much you will dump. So they did this to Mayo. Do
you remember any specifics..
J: Bent Corydon, too.
L: Bent Corydon. Do you know any specifics of any of the members of
this new religious group?
J: Flo Barnett.
L: Flo Barnett was harassed, covert operations were done on her.
J: That was taken outside of the scope and view of anything that I could
see. Once it came up that she was on lines, it came up from the sources
that were doing operations for the Religious Technology Center that she
was the person who came on lines. At that point that information was
turned over to David Miscavige, her ASI. At which point we no longer
had anything to do with the Flo Barnett situation.
L: Do you think, in your experience of running covert operations, was
there ever another time another covert operation was taken away from
your area, besides Flo Barnett? This could be because maybe they thought
it was too hot to handle.
J: Let me write that question down.
L: Was there any other covert operations that you were involved in were
removed from you during the period of your handling them? I guess what
I’m curious about is did they remove Flo Barnett from you as a matter,
of some security situation or risk situation so high, was it a risk
situation or was it an embarrassment situation? By asking this if it
ever happened to you before, if you can remember, with this type of risk
they would always take it away from me, that would tend to indicate
there were risk situations that were removed from you. But if you’re
never had anything ever taken away from you, ever, and all of a sudden
they take Flo Barnett away…
J: That was the first time I recall, because it was personal to David
Miscavige, and he took interest in it and that was it.
L: Did the church consider that David Miscavige was trying to produce a
reformed or better Scientology, not Miscagive, but David Mayo. Did he
claim that he was doing it the right way, the best way, that he was
reforming the delivery of the technical services? Did he ever make these
claims that were known about inside Scientology?
J: I think that David Mayo’s claim was that he wrote, or was the author
of the NOTs materials anyway. He could do it better than anyone in the
church because he was the guy that wrote it.
L: He invented it.
J: Not invented it, but wrote it, and very well did invent a lot of the
things that he wrote about anyway. Just based on what he told me, he
would sit there with L. Ron Hubbard, and L. Ron Hubbard would have an
idea, and then Dave would have an idea, say what it was, and they’d say,
"Yeah, this is good, write it up." That’s the way the NOTs series got
written. I think it was 1-48 that came out like that. I think during
my time it went up to 53. I think finally you start seeing Mithoff on
the end, writing his own stuff, getting himself established as a
technical source after David Mayo left. Then also, they went through and
revised some of those things to make it seem like what David Mayo was
bad or wrong. For the most part they pretty much stayed the same.
L: Do you thin..
J: To answer your question, his biggest thing was, "Hey, I wrote these
materials."
L: Do you think they revised his stuff, not because it was really
anything wrong it, but it was part of a discrediting program.
J: Total discrediting program.
L: What makes you believe that?
J: Because Ray Mithoff got into a campaign saying that he had seen some
original advices and then seen some issues and made a point of pointing
how certain things deviated from, and I do believe there’s even an issue
that came out right around 1983 discrediting David Mayo as a criminal in
his compilation of these NOTs materials, in the NOTs issues themselves.
L: Do you believe that was more of a public relations, black PR attack,
or do you believe that there really was a legitimate reason?
J: There was an issue that came out to the Scientology International ED
written by Ray Mithoff at the time. Yeah, it was total PR just to
discredit him.
L: Let’s go on to the next person on the list.
J: We were talking about John Peterson, we didn’t even finish with him.
What happened when John Peterson got ill. They were enforcing auditing
on him.
L: What do you mean by enforcing auditing?
J: Just really making him feel bad for not getting it. If you represent
us, then you have to believe in what we say, and you have to get
auditing, it can only help. There was this program where David
Miscavige figured attorneys now need to start getting auditing.
L: So there was an active program to get these attorneys into audit.
J: Joe Yanni, John Peterson, Earl Cooley, went into auditing.
L: Who else, Thresher, Heller?
J: Heller went into auditing.
L: These guys are getting auditing.
J: They started out with life repair. First word clearing, life
repair. Joe was really having a hard time with his auditing, Joe Yanni.
L: He’s an alcoholic.
J: Joe Yanni?
L: Yes.
J: I didn’t realize that. He was just chasing women, severely. He was
just married to a woman named Dora and it was a mess. John Peterson,
and they were all getting this over at the Celebrity Center, and they
were required to do this. John Peterson…
L: They were literally ordered, or it was suggested?
J: Suggested.
L: Their business relationship would be greatly benefited if they
started receiving the religious services of Scientology?
J: Exactly. John Peterson had been getting them for a while.
L: Did they have to pay for it, or was it given to them?
J: It was given to them.
L: Free auditing.
J: Yeah, at the Celebrity Center.
L: Before you go on, an important question. Were there any sec-checkie
type actions?
J: Yes.
L: Do you think that David Miscavige was looking for material that he
could use to leverage the attorneys and control them?
J: Yes.
L: Why do you believe that?
J: Because that’s what they do with everyone. The better you can
control someone, I guess the better results you’re gong to get with
whatever you’re going to do. It was a definite effort to get these
attorneys into Scientologists.
L: Is free auditing a normal practice?
J: Not at all.
L; Where have you seen people get free auditing before?
J: Celebrities.
L: Celebrities get free auditing. Like who?
J: Priscilla Presley, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Chick Chorea, Stanley
Clarke, Kirstie Alley.
L: They’re given free auditing. How much free auditing?
J: Enough to get them back on lines, enough to get them voluntarily
coming to an organization, asking for another service.
L: The church promises them free auditing to get them back.
J: Doesn’t promise, just gives it to them. It’s called the Celeb
Project. I ran it for quite a while.
L: How much value to free auditing do you think was given to
Scientology’s top celebrities, in cash value? Just a guestimate.
J: Many tens of thousands of dollars worth to John Travolta, maybe over
$100,000.
L: So, John Travolta it would be safe to say has been paid for his
endorsement of Scientology, he’s received free services. Tom Cruise has
been paid for an endorsement of Scientology, free services.
J: Yes. Nicole Kidman.
L: Nicole Kidman, free services.
J: She obviously didn’t want anything to do with it. She’s so done with
it, publicly said that she had nothing to do with Scientology.
L: Nicole Kidman won’t have any more auditing.
J: Right, and said she’s not a Scientologist and wants nothing to do
with it.
L: How can Tom Cruise still stay with her if she wants nothing to do
with Scientology?
J: He’s pretty backed off with Scientology himself at this point in
time.
L: He is. Because of his wife?
J: I can only imagine. I can only surmise.
L: How recent is that information?
J: Spanky told me about this when I was out in LA with Dan Leipold in
July.
L: Who else received free services from Scientology? Kirstie Alley, can
you estimate about how much free services? You headed up the project,
the Celebrity Recovery Project.
J: Yes. I know the people who received the most were John Travolta,
Priscilla Presley, Lisa Presley, probably Chick Corea, next in line.
L: Kirstie Alley?
J: Very little. Kirstie was strange. But she did receive some. She had
the Narconon program.
L: She has a coke addiction, she had a coke addiction. Let me ask you
another interesting question. They receive these free services. No
other Scientologists get free services that you know of?
J: The attorneys.
L: The attorneys. You kind of shocked me. I was in Scientology for 11
years, and everybody paid unless you signed a billion-year contract, or
a three-year contract. I didn’t even see anything given away.
J: If you were important, you could get it for free.
L: If you were important, you could get it for free.
J: Earl Cooley was, "I ain’t payin’ for a damn thing, you all want to
audit me, ok, but I ain’t payin.’" It came to a point to where they
were saying, "You need to start paying for all auditing", that’s where
all auditing stopped. To hell with this auditing. I know he gave quite
a bit of auditing. John Peterson was getting auditing and then he
stopped and said he did not want it anymore, he just wouldn’t go to the
auditing anymore. Now at this point, John Peterson is pretty tied up in
the thick of it, because he’s paying everybody’s bills.
L: Does he know what’s going on with these illegal actions to get bank
records.
J: Yes. He knows.
L: He does know?
J: Yeah, he knows.
L: To steal bank records, to steal phone records, IRS tax returns, to
steal, what else would they steal?
J: Employment information?
L: Medical records. They would steal them from a hospital on a person.
J: Get them in a deceptive matter.
L: Get them in a deceptive matter, you mean impersonate someone to get
the records. With me, several months ago, someone called up
impersonating me to try to have my bank records sent to Florida. They
called up our executive director’s bank and said they her husband and
wanted the bank records, that type of thing. What makes you think that
John Peterson was being a front for Scientology’s illegal activities?
J: Because he would sit and laugh about it. Like, "You guys are really
getting me into some shit, and I’m worried." I’ve seen him say this to
Marty Rathbun.
L: Was David Miscavige ever in the room?
J: Yes, David Miscavige would say something like, "If the heat is too
hot, get out of the kitchen. If you can’t stand the heat get out of the
kitchen."
L: That’s what he’d tell him. Marty Rathbun was there, Lyman Spurlock?
You were all discussing these illegal activities with the attorney, and
the attorney knew they were illegal…
J: Sure.
L: …and the amounts of money?
J: John Peterson was a major major one, that the money would get
funneled through.
L: Give us an idea of how much money might have gone through Peterson?
J: Hundreds of thousands.
L: Hundreds of thousands for illegal actions of obtaining illegal
records.
J: that would be able to pay deep cover operatives.
L: Deep cover operatives.
J: Illegal soliciting of private information, surveillance.
L: Would this be on judges, too.
J: Oh, sure, anyone.
L: Did you hear the names of any judges that they were collecting these
records on, specifically, the names of…
J: Breckenridge.
L: Breckenridge of the LA Superior Court, they obtained his illegal
records. Who else?
J: Yeah. The other one, who was the other one? The other judge that
was involved in your case? Swearinger.
L: LA Superior Court Judge Ronald Swearinger, they obtained all his…
J: As much as they could.
L: Any other judges that you ever heard?
J: There was another one that was kind of bad, that they didn’t like.
L: Judge Ritchie, did you ever hear his name?
J: Yes, I’ve heard Marty say that name.
L: Krenzman out of Florida, Judge Krenzman.
J: There’s another LA one that I’m thinking of.
L: Judge Margolis?
J: Yes, I’ve heard that name too.
L: Was that in association with the project to obtain judge’s records.
J: It was any judge that was consistently giving them bad decision.
L: It would be safe to say that any judge who is ruling against
Scientology, and what period to you think this was?
J: The biggest op to doing the judges who was giving bad decisions about
Scientology was to get peer pressure put on them.
L: By giving the peers the information through..
J: From a friend of a friend, or hey, somebody said…
L: Through the operation of collecting covert operations and illegal
records.
J: Right. With Breckenridge I remember specifically Marty spouting off
like
[TAPE SIDE ENDS]
L: Starting again with side two, you were talking about Judge
Breckenridge and Marty Rathbun talking about.
J: I remember Marty Rathbun actually saying something to trying to get
some women in on Breckenridge.
L: To set him up with prostitutes?
J: Yes.
L: Do you know if that covert operation was actually done?
J: No, I do not.
L: Let me go back, we’ll come. These are the tangents. It may look like
we’re going in tangents, there is a direction, I see something appearing
here, a fabric.
J: John Peterson is getting paler, and paler, and he’s getting skinnier,
he’s just in bad health. I remember going to see him, and he was just
not well. Then, he was talking to someone, I think Marty was really
harassing him about his auditing, and how they had just had an argument
about it. I think that he died that day.
L: He died that day. They were harassing him to get more auditing. Do
you know what kind of auditing he was getting at the time?
J: Life repair.
L: Life repair, isn’t there some OW Repair, life repair. People telling
things they’re very ashamed of, it deliberately goes into embarrassing
situations in a person’s life.
J: Yes, yes. Cause it had already happened to Joe, and Joe was livid
about it.
L: When he was livid?
J: Being sec-checked, and then somebody threatening to tell his wife
Dora what the hell he’s doing with his girlfriend, the secretary in the
office.
L: So, this actually happened that they coerced him to get this
auditing, got him to confess that he was being unfaithful to his wife,
and then threatened while he was still a lawyer for Scientology, I mean
he’s still working for them and they’re threatening him that they’ll
tell his wife about his affairs…
J: If he doesn’t’ straighten up, stop having affairs and be more
amenable to what he’s being told to do.
L: Be specific. What was he being told to do?
J: He was supposed to be the lead counsel for Religious Technology.
That meant that he had to devote every ounce of his time to Scientology,
as opposed to having multiple clients.
L: Was he asked to do anything illegal, immoral, or that he didn’t want
to do? Do you know of him being asked to do anything?
J: No, I can’t say that.
L: I heard from another operative, and we don’t know if this was true,
that he was asked to obtain illegal medical records on Charlie O’Rielly,
to discredit Charlie O’Rielly, saying he was in a mental hospital or a
drug rehab program, to discredit him.
J: He could have been asked to do that.
L: You have no knowledge.
J: That would be something that Marty would have pulled him to the side
and spoken to him.
L: Is Marty the person who generally… Who runs most of the dirtiest
operations?
J: Marty.
L: Marty Rathbun is the guy, and then he passes the data on to…
J: He has little clones, like Lynn Farney is just one of them. He was
like the guy doing the dirtiest work. And Ben Shaw. He and Ben Shaw were
doing the dirtiest work.
L: Besides Lynn Farney, Ben Shaw….
J: Gary Clinger.
L: Gary Clinger, Marty Rathbun, who else is most involved in the
criminal side of Scientology?
J: David Miscavige?
L. David Miscavige.
J. Lyman Spurlack on the corporate level. He is so dirty.
L. When you say corporately, he’s dirty, specifically what does he do
that’s illegal?
J: Tax, and how corporate’s set up, undated resignations before you
start. Just the shit thing, like the corporate integrity, hiding that.
He is the one who has done that all along.
L: Scientology swears that they stopped undated letters of resignation
at the time of the GO, at the time of Mary Sue Hubbard being kicked out,
that was the old bad guys were doing that.
J: No, I did it in ’82. It was conditional to being on the board. It was
we’re not supposed to do this, we say we don’t do it, but you have to do
it.
L: Who told you that?
J: Lyman Spurlack and David Miscavige.
L: They were in the room telling you to sign an undated resignation,
that it’s illegal, you’re not supposed to do it, but you have to do it
anyway. That was in 1982.
J: In case you flip out. It’s our insurance policy.
L: Did you ever sign another one?
J: I may have.
L: How were you removed from the board of RTC?
J: Some guys just came in and told me I wasn’t in any more. They already
had the undated signed…
L: They showed you your signed letter of resignation.
J: Yep, you don’t have to do anything. I ended up signing up something
else anyway.
L: Did they have a board meeting in which you were present and they
voted you off the board, which is normal.
J: No, none of that.
L: You had no right to express your views or protest.
J: None, whatsoever.
L: You were just.
J: Summarily told you signed, it, you’re out, here’s a mission, there’s
more of us than you, see ya.
L: What year did you sign it? ’82?
J: Umha.
L: What year were you removed?
J: ’87.
L: Five years later somebody walks in the room and says, "You’re no
longer a member of the board without any legal redress according to the
laws of California, and of the functional way that a corporation must be
run by the rule of law"?
J: That was a big joke.
L: Do you know of any other people who have signed?
J: Vicky Aznaran, Warren McShane.
L: Warren McShane The current head of RTC has signed an undated letter
of resignation?
J: Jim Mooney, who was one of the trustees of CSI.
L: Jim Mooney, trustees of CSI.
J: Everyone signed undated resignation letters of resignation.
L: So you’re saying Warren McShane, the guy who’s in court testifying
against FACTNet, is not really a legitimate director of RTC because he
has committed a fraud becoming a director, and he's a director under
fraud?
J: Right. Well, he signed an undated resignation. Which means, that just
like I was told when I signed me, if you get flaky you’re out of here,
it’s an insurance policy.
L: What other corporations that are run by the church of Scientology is
this a practice in, to the best of your knowledge?
J: Everyone.
L: Everyone?
J: Every single one of church of Scientology. Everyone that I know who
was on the board signed undated resignations. David Miscavige even told
me that Mark Yeager signed one.
L: Mary Yeager signed one? Do you think Marty Rathbun and David
Spurlock have signed undated.
J: Yes, I think, I haven’t seen. But I know it was a standard practice,
everyone was required to.
L: Every..
J: Every board member is required to sign undated resignations.
L: Let’s keep talking. Anything about Peterson. The day he died he had
an argument, was it a heated argument? Was it an intense argument?
J: I was there, but you know insistent Scientologists can behave, "You
really need to do this". I know Marty was really on John Peterson.
L: Would it be fair to say they were trying to force him into auditing?
J: Yes it would be fair
L: Would it be fair to say that.
J: He had refused, and that was it. A week had gone by.
L: He died after this argument which he refused.
J: Less than 24 hours, had a heart attack. They laughed about it, they
thought it was the biggest funny thing.
L: Who laughed?
J: David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey, Marty Rathbun,
because he was telling us, Vicky was laughing about it. He said, the
damn fag had a heart attack, he should have got his auditing.
L: So you’re saying that the man that they used for years to funnel
money to commit illegal acts, and had been loyal to them, as their
attorney, died, and in that room after he had died there was laughter.
J: At home.
L: At his home they were laughing?
J: No, he died at his home. Later in the conference room where we were
at all the services, Mark Jaegar.
L: And they’re actually laughing about this man who had loyally worked
for them, he put himself in legal jeopardy, sold out his sole basically,
as an attorney, and now they’re laughing about his death.
J: Right. I need a break.
[Break in tape]
J: OK, after everyone laughed heartily about John Peterson dying, old
fag dying, then the next point of discussion was making sure that
beautiful, beautiful flowers were bought for his funeral, spare no
expense. He had beautiful little passages from each organization, like
submitted by RTC, "John, we miss you, thank you for all your help."
There was a magnificent show, that at that time, and I’m not talking as
I sit here right now, but at that time, I felt like I was part of a
Mafia organization. The callousness, and then the adherence, like the
beauty and the ugliness just meshed together. At that time when I sat
there, I used to wear $500 suits, get them made by a tailor, all this
kind of stuff. Then it was like that false sense of power, extreme false
sense of power over life and death.
L: Let me ask you about two other areas. First is, celebrities. Did they
receive, were they allowed to come to special Scientology centers for no
charge and stay in special rooms or suites for lodging. Were they
allowed to use the Scientology service facilities around the world
without charge?
J: Certain celebrities pretty much had carte blanc in the best
Scientology facilities.
L: Name a few names
J: I’ll give specific examples. John Travolta would actually have
auditors sent to his home to audit him for free. Rick Sheehee was one of
them, Chris Sillcock was another one. Just flown all over at
Scientology’s expense, just to maintain some control with him. John
Travolta specifically would have these instances where he’d want nothing
else to do with it, just leave me alone.
L So he tried to get out of Scientology?
J: Many times. Then, here we come with the freebies. The this, the that,
the other thing.
L: They would send the auditors to his home, fly the auditors around the
world, and the purpose was to maintain…
J: Good relationships with the person.
L: …control over John Travolta. Did you ever hear anyone discuss "we
need to send these auditors to keep control of John Travolta?"
J: Yes.
L: Who said that?
J: David Miscavige, Norman Starkey.
L: Any other celebrities that they sent auditors to their homes, or flew
them…
J: Special treatment, yes, Tom Cruise. Now he came up and did all of
his, I mean I’ve never seen a guy progress so quickly through the
Scientology "levels". Tom Cruise went from nothing to Clear to OT to
NOTs damn near in a season, like in the fall. I know because I
personally sat down and did e-meter drills with him so that he could
learn the solo art. I did solo drills with him, so that he could do
that. When I first met him he was nothing.
L: Do you feel he did it…
J: I’m not done, let me finish. So then, now, even beyond him just
being there, Lyman Spurlock arranged his entire divorce from Mimi Rogers
for no charge, did all of his finances.
L: Scientology helped arrange the divorce from Mimi Rogers.
J: And did the settlement, yes. And the settlement, I think she got $10
million.
L: $10 million.
J: And then they took Tom Cruise…
L: Was Mimi Rogers a member of Scientology at the time?
J: She was said to be a "disaffected Scientologist." In order words she
wasn’t really having anything to do with Scientology.
L: There was no attorneys involved, was this just strictly Marty? Who
arranged the divorce?
J: Lyman Spurlock. Lyman Spurlock did the…. David Miscavige was very
instrumental in the divorce.
L: When you say he was instrumental, what do you think he did?
J: Basically told Tom Cruise, spoke to him and pointed out his
deficiencies, like, your finances are totally under control, you are
dyslectic, you’re having a hard time reading things, there are certain
things you’re having a hard time with. We can help you. You just have to
go along and do what we tell you.
L: Tom Cruise is dyslectic?
J: Yeah.
L: He has a hard time reading?
J: You know, transposing words.
L: They told Tom Cruise, just do what we tell you.
J: Pretty much, you’re in good hands, we have all this experience, Lyman
has corporate experience, he’s a certified public accountant. He sat
down and sat down and did all the audit and the books for Tom Cruises’
finances. Then…
L: So they got all of Tom Cruise’s finances, complete knowledge of this
guy’s life.
J: Everything, complete knowledge. This is what tops it off. He now
likes this Nicole Kitman, and he has a fantasy of just running through a
field of tall grass with Nicole Kitman. What happens is they bring up
to the Giman Hot Springs location and the have had people in Golden Air
Productions for weeks staying up overnight, just extended schedules,
de-rocking, plowing a field, planting tall wheat grass that will grow,
and when Nicole Kitman came, here’s a field, now they’re running through
the damn field of grass. It took weeks.
L: How much money do you think was spent to create that?
J: Tens of thousands of dollars.
L: To create a field of grass fantasy so that Tom Cruise could seduce
Nicole Kitman at this Scientology compound called…
J: Golden Air Productions.
L: Golden Air Productions.
J: They were given beautiful lavish rooms with beautiful leather in it,
things like…
L: Room service.
J: Maids, room service 5 star chef.
L: Were they charged? They had their own chef?
J: They had a French pastry chef in Scientology, and another just a 4
star regular cook chef, Carl, somebody, he was a South African fellow.
Any meal they wanted on request.
L: Did this happen just one time.
J: No, multiple times. Every time, throughout his whole "OT levels" and
in between movies. Now this was happening during the time he was doing
that Days of Thunder, because Scientology even went so far as to develop
for him a specific sound system because they said he was upset about the
way they recorded his voice on the set. They actually put together a
special recording system on the set for him and sent a couple of
Scientology staff members, Steve Marlow and Luigi to be on the set of
Days of Thunder to record. They were a complete nuisance to the case and
crew. They hated them. They came in wheeling this big thing in Montana
on location, a stellar box recorder. All of this was developed and staff
members worked day and night perfecting something specifically for him.
Of course, he never paid for anything but the equipment.
L: So Scientology is also sending staff…
J: Stroking them hard, these celebrities.
L: …staff members to travel with these celebrities. Are they observing
and writing reports?
J: Experts.
L: Are they writing reports and sending them uplines on what they’re
seeing. They’re like intelligence reports on who the celebrity is
associating with, if the celebrity is having problems, if the celebrity
needs to be handled. Did you ever see a report on a celebrity?
J: No, but I know those that were writing them, like I said, Luigi and…
L: Writing and sending them uplines. Who would get these?
J: David Miscavige.
L: So David Miscavige was providing people an entourage that were
providing him with on sight observation and services.
J: The celebrities would "unusual services".
L: These were free, they weren’t paying for this?
J: No.
L: What other celebrities would receive these gifts or staying at these
elaborately expensive special quarters and special services. Travolta?
J: Travolta, Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman…
L: Kirstie Alley?
J: Kirstie Alley. I only saw her one of two times though. Chick Corea
would often be they’re getting special handling, Ray Mithoff, all of
their top auditors
L: They would bring out their top auditors, people that you would have
to pay $1,000 an hour at Flagg, $500 if you requested Bob Mithoff you
would be charged an outrageous amount, right? They were getting these
services free from… Were there any other divorces that Scientology was
involved in, or breaking up celebrity couples, or matching celebrity
couples. Did you ever hear of anything?
J: Lisa Marie. When she started in with Michael Jackson. David Miscavige
just had an insane fascination for Michael Jackson. The whole crew had
to listen to his music. We would have special showings, make sure you
watch the Thriller video.
L: The whole staff would have to watch Michael Jackson movies? Was this
before Michael Jackson got an audit?
J: This was while all of this was going on. David would proudly announce
how we just almost got Michael Jackson, we’re doing everything that we
can, and Lisa Marie, and. I guess it didn’t work out.
L: Do you know anything about the details of what happened?
J: I’ll tell you want I do know. They had a good relationship, however,
with Jackson’s people, to the point where L. Ron Hubbard Battlefield
Earth album was coming out and the executive producer of the Thriller
album was a man named Bruce Swadine. He agreed to come out, based on the
relationship that existed with Michael Jackson and Lisa to come out and
work on the Battlefield Earth album. They shot themselves in the foot on
that part, because Bruce Swadine’s wife came in with him, I guess he
didn’t want to be alone, he had allocated a certain amount of days to
work on this Battlefield project for them, and his wife wore cologne,
perfume. She came into their magnificently elaborate studio wearing
that cologne, and you know, no one at that base is allowed to wear any
form of fragrance. The one person who was told, I forget her name, a
little blonde girl, she was told to speak to his wife about her
smelling, and she actually went to Bruce Swadine’s wife and said that
cologne you are wearing is irritating, it’s stinking up the whole place.
She was rough. She just had a fit, ran to Bruce and told him, and they
left that day. He was like, "what kind of people are you? You people are
nuts." The girl’s name was Marilyn somebody. She ended up having to do
conditions forever. That just blew it. She was told.
L: That blew the Michael Jackson deal?
J: Completely. I mean I know you didn’t hear much about Michael Jackson
after that.
L: Did he get any auditing?
J: I think he may have got something, I don’t know personally, he might
have gotten a little bit of something.
L: Do you think that there was anything suggested by the church that if
Lisa Marie got him into Scientology, that she would be a special star,
that she would obtain, be considered a very important person if she got
him into Scientology?
J: I can’t really say that. I don’t have knowledge. I do have knowledge
that she got as much free auditing as she wanted.
L: While she was working on Michael Jackson.
J: Right, prior to their marriage. She was married to someone… She was
married to someone earlier, some guy that was a Scientologist, a Sea Org
member, and she became infatuated with Michael Jackson, at which point
that marriage ended. You asked me about divorces, the divorce between
her and that fella that she was with was monitored and gotten done very
quickly.
L: Do you think it was done to assist her to try to recruit Michael
Jackson.
J: Yes. Lose this guy you’re with.
L: Orders went to this Sea Org member.
J: The CO of CC, what was her name, Karen Hounder. I forget the name.
It was her job to specifically handle the Lisa Marie. I had an auditor
who was auditing her, that went and audited her mother, and decided to
get into a sexual relationship with Priscilla and ended up having to
be… It was just a mess. Priscilla Presley, this is another one I would
send out to Memphis, wherever she was, on a movie set, to just give her
auditing for free.
L: Any other divorces besides the orchestration with Tom Cruise and Mimi
Rogers and also Lisa Marie and her Sea Org husband. Anything else, how
about John Travolta and Kelly Preston?
J: I know that was something that was cultivated along. Kelly Preson was
not anyone I had heard of, and I had been dealing with John Travolta for
years. Women were not always his preference. Then for her to suddenly
show up.
L: You don’t have any knowledge that David Miscavige might have said,
"Look, you’ve got some public relations problems here, why don’t you get
married, here’s somebody in Scientology that could help you smooth over
this." If you don’t have knowledge, you don’t have…
J: No, I don’t. I was just invited to their baby shower when their baby
was born.
L: Let’s finish this off, we’re going to move the focus away from that,
we’ll come back to this. It seems like, from what you’re saying these
celebrities received tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of
dollars in free auditing, they have special places they go, they get
waited on hand and foot, in special elite compounds where they go so
many times a year for free. They’re not charged for this that you know
of.
J: Or it could also be the circumstances. I want to leave this crack in
the door, that they have already been billed for X amount of dollars,
and this is just something that continually comes up. Never the
expenses of flying an auditor here there and everywhere.
L: People, an entourage is sent with them when they go on set, and this
entourage is sending out knowledge reports written intelligence reports
on what’s happening.
J: In Days of Thunder, I recall that specifically with Tom Cruise. We
actually tried to create a mix trailer because they didn’t like what the
music studio was doing. They became so disruptive to Tom Cruise in his
film making that they eventually had to step aside. It was threatening
his career.
L: What is the real salaries? Let’s talk about Miscavige and the top
people. Everybody else is down there making $15, $24 a week. What does
a Sea Org member make a week now.
J: Now, I wouldn’t have that information.
L: When you left in ’92, the average Corg member was making?
J: $32 a week.
L: 90% of the staff is making literally nothing?
J: Right.
L: How much, Miscavige claims he makes $40,000 a year as head of the
church, that’s his tax claim. How much does he make in terms of other
things? Have you ever seen him?
J: He has several cars. All of his clothes are tailor-made, and not paid
by him, gold, silver, in brick forms, stashed in safe.
L: Gold and silver bricks in a safe, how can a person who makes $42,000
a year have gold and silver bricks?
J: I mean lots of them, I’m not talking about a few. Gold coins. He
showed me his safe one time, I couldn’t believe it. Gold and silver bars
stacked up, coins, rare coins, jewelry.
L: Was he a rich child?
J: No, not at all. His father is dirt poor.
L: He’s now in Scientology and he has a safe full of gold and silver.
J: He has the most elaborate stereo system of anything and any place
I’ve ever seen.
L: How much do you think the stereo system might be worth?
J: $20,000.
L: A man who makes $40,000 a year with a $20,000 stereo?
J: All the furniture is hand made, designed to fit the place where he
is.
L: Hand-made furniture. How much do you estimate the furnishings of his
apartment at?
J: $30,000, $40,000.
L: $30,000, $40,000 in furnishings for his apartment. How many people
wait on him hand and foot, how many servants does he have?
J: Personal?
L: Personal and cooks.
J; I’d say a staff of 15, 20 people.
L: 15 or 20 people that are provided to wait on him at the expense of
Scientology. Were these people, if they were in the real world, they
would be making $18,000 to $25,000 a year for being servants and maids?
J: Right.
L: So, he may be receiving in services paid by the church, several
hundred thousand a year. How about travel and vacations.
J: Unlimited, and always in business and first class.
L: First class, business. Do they have a jet they fly him around in?
Is there a personal jet for Scientology?
J: I know they used Travolta’s jet one time, and I know they’ve flown on
the French Concord just so they could see the curvature of the earth.
Ray Mithoff and David Miscavige, this kind of extravagance. All the
clothes are tailor-made.
L: Tailor made, what do you mean?
J: A tailor in Los Angeles has their measurements, they do the designs
and it’s a back and forth process.
L: Did the average Sea Org member have tailor-made clothes?
J: Christ, no.
L: How much do you estimate his suits and clothing cost per suit?
J: I’d say about a couple of thousand dollars a suit.
L: Maybe $2,000 a suit. How many suits and things do you think he has?
J: Closets full, I mean special closets were made to accommodate his
clothes. He has rooms, probably as big as your whole place that is
nothing but closets.
L: A room that is as big as my whole lower apartment, we’re talking 320
square feet.
J: Just for his shoes, the alligator, the ostrich skin, the this, the
lizards, the that.
L: He is buying the best, give me shoes that cost more than $50.
J: Shoes that cost of hundreds of dollars. They all have to have their
own personal cedar shoe trees in them. There has to be cedar where the
stuff is stored. This is very elaborate.
L: How much do you estimate his wardrobe? You’re talking about more than
20 suits.
J: I’m talking like 40, 50 suits.
L: 50 suits as much as $2,000 a suit. How many pairs of shoes?
J: It just seems like it goes on endlessly.
L: Could he have 20 pair of shoes?
J: Hell no, about 60.
L: 60 pairs of shoes, costing up to several hundred dollars a pair.
We’re talking…
J: Hand made, hand designed.
L: So you’re talking about a wardrobe of $150,000.
J: Yeah, $200,000.
L: Jewelry.
J: Fancy watches.
L: And a man who makes $40,000.
J: And his wife has all that too. She has equal closet space.
L: She has an equal backing.
J: Beautiful clothes, everything, go to the best stores, tailored.
L: Where does this money come for all of this personal extravagance?
J: The church. The backs of slaves.
L: People making $30 a week pay for him to live like this?
J: Yes.
L: Does the average staff member know that he has all this?
J: The ones that are their can see it with their own eyes. Probably,
not the ones that are not there.
L: There is nothing published about his suits, the cost of his..
J: Yeah, he has at least three cars too. The one car that he had, he
had just bought a brand new Miata. He also had two other cars, one was
a Nissan Maxima, brand new, and then he had 4 cars, and he had a van.
L: He had 4 cars, were they new?
J: Brand new.
L: Here’s a man making $40,000 a year with 4 brand new cars, $150,00
worth of clothes, a safe full of gold and silver, and his wife with
matching jewelry. Does his wife have fancy jewelry?
J: Yes. Real diamonds with a sparkle that will blind you.
L: Is her family very wealthy?
J: They are as poor as dirt. Her mother was married to a black man, they
struggled, he was a little fix-it man. That’s how they lived.
L: Tell me more about this. Does Miscavige go to Reno and Las Vegas and
gamble, does he take cruises, does he use the facility?
J: He goes out on helicopter rides, he goes to the Bahamas, he gets
special boats, special launches to take him fishing, cruise the islands.
L: Does he go on vacations like normal Sea Org members..
J: I’d say he goes on vacation 4 times a year.
L: How long are these vacations?
J: A couple weeks, 3 weeks.
L: Two or 3 weeks each, he could be on vacation 10 weeks of the year?
J: I would think that was 15.
L: 12 to 15? Who pays for these vacations?
J: The church.
L: All expenses?
J: All expenses paid. He doesn’t have to pay a damn thing.
L; These vacations could cost, a week in the Bahamas, the way he lives,
how much do you think it could cost? Does he go first class, does he get
a nice room? He doesn’t get an economy room.
J: He lives on the ship where he has a special room for him, where he
has all his slaves. But, when he goes to do his other activities, like
he wants to go on a submarine, or he wants to get a charter, a smaller
boat to run around, or go on a helicopter and look at the islands, or
whatever the hell, this kind of thing.
L: The church pays for it?
J: Yeah.
L: Does he ever go on a vacation away from the church? Just he and his
wife take a little trip?
J: Yes, they have, but often he doesn’t take her.
L: He goes without her.
J: He takes some of his other buddies, other Scientology friends.
L: Marty Rathbun, does he take the top people?
J: Mark Yeager, Lyman, Norman. Him and Norman are inseparable when it
comes to vacation.
L: So they go off on themselves, without Scientology to see…
J: They have Marty with them, all the cover people are watching them,
making sure. Security often travels with them too from Emit California,
the take a few of those people with them.
L: So, there is a place in New Mexico, a house, some little retreat
center, do you know anything about this house?
J: Is this where people get medical treatment?
L: I don’t know, you’ve heard about a house where they’re getting
medical treatment?
J: I heard there was a place where some doctor was doing this medical
treatment on cancer, some kind of cancer treatment on Scientology people
in Mexico.
L: In New Mexico.
J: New Mexico, no, I don’t know.
L: New Mexico or Arizona, nothing about a special house down there?
J: No.
L: Do you know any other places were David Miscavige spends more than
you would expect for a guy making $40,000 a year in a church that is
very conscious of expenditures, where no one else is allowed any
luxuries? Do you know any other places where he’s spending lots of
money?
J: Besides the Bahamas, Paris, you know, Copenhagen, wherever he goes.
Where there’s a Scientology place, when he finishes his business there,
he has the luxuries of…
L: When he goes out to eat for dinner, does he spend a lot of money at
fancy places?
J: I can only imagine because I know when I did, I’ve gotten bills that
were up over $500 for a meal.
L: When you did this? Did anybody ever say anything to you?
J: Never.
L: Tell me, is there an unwritten code that the top people in
Scientology…
J: Do whatever they want to.
L: Name the people that can do whatever they want.
J: I’m talking about during my time period, up to 1987 when I was an
executive, and then I’ve seen it. Norman Starkey, Dave Miscavige, Shelly
Miscavige, also at the time Mark Yeager, who still in my estimation
tried to be frugal, because CSI was footing most of the bill for
everything that he did. Marty Rathbun spares no expense.
L: First class everything.
J: I’ve got to have PIs, I’ve got to have this, whatever he wants, it’s
pretty unlimited. Norman Starkey is very extravagant. The guy has to
have the best of everything, his wife, Maria Starkey.
L: Would it be safe to say these people are being paid big money?
J: Giant, giant money.
L: How much do you think a year, in real money, when you take all the
resources, all the assets, all the expense accounts?
J: Three quarters of a million dollars.
L: They are making $750,000?
J: They’re spending that much.
L: Using it for their private pleasure and whatever else. The majority
Scientology staff member are making $30, $40, $50 a week, living in
would you say good conditions?
J: No, horrid conditions.
L: Horrid conditions. And these guys are up on the pile, taking,
creaming the organization for everything they can get. Do you have any
knowledge that they’ve taken money in for themselves and moved it into
bank accounts in their own names in other countries anywhere else?
J: I know that they have done that, but I don’t know any specifics about
that. There was a point in tape where they were threatening bank
account freezes on Dave Miscavige, Norman, and a few other people. They
actually did freeze his bank account. But that was just a laughing joke.
There is no way you could stop money from coming into that.
L: He could take it out of any church. David Miscavige, does he have
enough control that he could walk into any church, walk into their bank
accounts, and order the bank account to be written over to him on the
spot?
J: On the spot.
L: And it would be done?
J: Mm-hmm.
L: You have no doubt that if he ordered it, no matter if it was a
franchise, a separate franchise..
J: Whatever.
L: If he walked into Narconon and said…
J: "I need the money", it would be gone.
L: ..write me a check for all the money in the account, it would be
done, and they would immediately comply with his order?
J: Right.
L: Why?
J: Because of the FBO system, the Flag Banking System. All of those
people are normally brought up to Gold and indoctrinated to go with the
orders. They try to explain to them. Their basic idea is get as much
money as you can and send it to him. When they come there, you pay for
everything.
L: If you can recall anything where any of the top people have private
bank accounts, if you know of Scientology assets being put into private
accounts for security reserve, anything like that...
J: Cyprus, I know about that, we can talk about that tomorrow.
L: Cyprus, yeah, we’ll talk about that and take it from there.
[End of tape]
Tape 3, August 25, 1998
Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince L: 4,5,6,7,8,9. Today is the 25th of August. This is Lawrence
Wollersheim with Jesse Prince . We’re discussing his years in
Scientology. Jesse is probably the highest-ranking person to leave
Scientology; at one time you were second in command of all of
Scientology. As I mention every day, Jesse is all you remember, as
factually as possible, the names of people that were involved in these
situations and nothing more, nothing less. If you don’t know about it,
you don’t know. What we were doing yesterday is we were going through
the suicide list, and we were up to some of these here. If you could
start with the one that we left off and just start talking about them.
J: I think we ended up on John Peterson. We spoke about BB Mauer. Then
about the of case auditing, I added a person named Diane Morrison.
L: Tell us what end of case auditing is and Diane Morrison.
J: End of case auditing basically is when the person is told by an
official in Scientology, a high level therapist, or case supervisor that
there is nothing more that they can do to physically live and they need
to just let go of the body and die. That’s what it is. I did a whole
post [on the Internet] on this Diane Morrison, I went into great detail
about it. I don’t think there’s anything more to add to that.
L: Can you summarize.
J: I’ll just say the event. I’ll just say what happened. This is a staff
member that had been on staff for at least 10 years. She was a very
healthy woman, kind of a California girl type of person, always was very
healthy. She married a fellow named Shawn Morrison, who was the port
captain at Gilman Hot Springs, which is basically a public relations
position for the surrounding locals. At any rate, this woman ended up
having cancer, and it was, you know, Scientology doesn’t believe in
chemotherapy or anything like that. They actually have policy letters
against gamma rays, this is a severely antiquated idea, they don’t move
with modern technology. So, this woman was encouraged to not get the
standard treatment available to cure cancer.
L: Do you think financial considerations were any part of it?
J: Probably the very first. I say that, I know that’s an opinion, but I
know that every person that gets pregnant at Gilman Hot Springs are sent
to the city of Riverside, or California to stand in a welfare line to
get an abortion paid for. They are told to give, there’s a little pack
that they read so that they know to disassociate themselves from
Scientology and the Sea Org as much as possible, so that it's not known
where they’re coming from. They give as little information as possible
to receive an abortion. They won’t even pay for the abortions of the
women, even though they enforce them medically. They don’t spend a lot
of money on the staff members.
L: Do you mean that there is a written pack of materials in Scientology
that they give to the staff members to go have their medical services
paid for by the state?
J: Right.
L: And in this pack it tells them to hide their association with
Scientology, to defraud the government out of medical costs that should
be paid by this organizations that’s bringing in hundreds of millions a
year, and has these staff members that it should be taking care of their
medical care as part of their overall care?
J: Right.
L: Has this been a long-term practice of Scientology?
J: Yes it has. Even for a toothache sometimes you have to wait for weeks
to get a mere $50 to go and get some dental work, or $150. Very often
staff suffer in pain. I know it happened to me, I had an abscessed
tooth, I had to wait about 2 weeks to have money to be able to go to a
dentist, just to get that taken care of. Suffering with medical illness
is a common thing for a staff member in Scientology. They have their
policies, called CSW, Completed Staff Ward, where the person has to do
all of this research and everything about their illness or whatever they
need with quotes, etc. on and on before money consideration will be
given to them to treat a medical situation. However, sometimes a person
is just so besides themselves in pain, or just simply depressed, or no
will to pursue the arduous course just to get some medical treatment
that they’ll often go neglected, and a more serious situation will
develop. That is the normal procedure for medical attention to staff
members in the Sea Org.
L: Would it be fair to say that over the years, like Scientology claims
it has 13,000 staff members worldwide. Do they do this in other
countries as well, use the government welfare systems to pay medical
bills? Do you have any knowledge about that?
J: I have noted they do it in Copenhagen, I’m not sure they do it in
England, but I know they do it in Copenhagen.
L: Is it possible, over 40 years, with all of these staff members going
to get Medicare or welfare, to cover medical costs, that we could be
talking about thousands of dollars of fraud on the government welfare.
J: Hundreds of thousands of dollars of fraud.
L: Possibly even millions over 40 years, with 13,000.
J: Yeah, yes.
L: You were saying earlier that you thought the main reason that
Scientology denied medical care was because of its cost.
J: Financial cost.
L: So chemotherapy could run $10,000, the chance of a staff member
getting $10,000 for medical care was about… Is there much of a chance
that they would ever see that kind of money?
J: Never. Never, never, never. I have never seen that amount of money.
As a matter of fact, I had to have an operation when I was there, and
fortunately I was in a high position. It still took me a month, I had a
deviated septum, which I was very vulnerable to allergies and things,
and I actually had to have an operation to have my nose re-broken and
re-set. It cost I think $4,000 and it took me about 2 months to get the
money. And that’s extremely fast, and that is like the exception, simply
because I was in a high position.
L: You were second in command of Scientology.
J: Right, and it still took me 2 months. Had it been anyone else, it
would never be a point of consideration, just like no. Live with it.
L: So, this woman was denied cancer treatment.
J: There are two names I have to bring up here. Megan Sheilds and Gene
Dink. For the Los Angeles area, these were the two Scientology doctors,
and they would follow Scientology implicitly, in denying medical
treatment to staff members. This Diane Morrison was seeing Megan
Shields, and also Dr. Dink was associated with it. She was given this
end of cycle, where she was basically told by the doctors that she was
riddled by cancer, after running to Mexico and doing some hocus pocus
stuff for whatever, getting some kind of cancer treatment. She went down
there a couple of times, that there was nothing she could do, and she
was going to die. She needed to this end of cycle. The woman ended up
not dying from the cancer itself, but she died from starving herself to
death. They watched her, and I seen her turn to skin and bones, and
then, they didn’t want her to die at Golden Era. They forced this guy,
Shawn Morrison, to take Diane Morrison to his mother’s house where she
was placed underneath an air conditioner. She died within a couple of
days, from starvation.
L: So here they have a long term staff member who’s given them 10 years
of their life, and they didn’t even want the person to die on the
grounds of the church because…
J: It would raise suspicion.
L: It would raise suspicion. Would it be legitimate suspicion?
J: Of course, they sat and told the person to die and watched her kill
herself with stony faces and told her she was doing the right thing.
L: This Gene Dink and Megan Shields, were they aware of the fraud on the
welfare department? Did they ever participate or have any knowledge of
sending people to the welfare, or sending people to Medicare to deny
they were associated with Scientology to receive free treatment?
J: I have no direct knowledge of that, but I do believe that could be
the case. I have no direct knowledge, and I’ll just say that.
L: Were these doctors, were they following the medical guidelines of
their profession when they told this person that they had to get ready
to die, or were they following possibly directions from Scientology?
J: Directions from Scientology.
L: Who was giving them orders?
J: Probably the case supervisors, which probably… Ray Mithoff or some
other person like that was over this Diane Morrison, as a case handler.
L: In other words, the case supervisors in Scientology were telling the
doctors when to dispense additional medicine and when not to?
J: They would more specifically, tell them what types of medicine they
could dispense, or how often, or how much.
L: What therapies to use?
J: Yes, what therapies to use.
L: What qualifications did these case supervisors have to make
medication and medical therapy to allow or deny these… that then these
doctors would follow the directions of the case supervisors, and not
their own medical training?
J: None whatsoever, none whatsoever. Classic case in point, Lisa McPherson . She has trouble. She apparently goes psychotic, instead of
taking her to a place where there are trained professionals to help her,
and to give her the medicine that she needs, they take her, lock her up
in a room, put her under guard, pass notes. Next thing you know, she’s
dead. Those are all instructions that people in Scientology are trained
to do, to deny proper medical treatment and people end up dead.
L: Do you know any other end of case situations, where people were told
"get ready to die"?
J: There is a fellow that had something wrong, I think he had an
aneurysm or something wrong with his head. I do not remember his name.
He was at the Gold Base. I noted that happened to him, right as he was
dying, he was told to do that. The next thing you know he was dead. Now,
they didn’t know what was wrong with him. I think he had an aneurysm, I
know he was in extreme pain. But I know for sure that he was not taken
to a qualified hospital so that he could be examined when he first
started to complain about having bad symptoms or headaches. It was just
take your cal-mag and shut up. Take you vitamins, get your [?] run-down,
next thing you know his head blows up and he’s dead.
L: Do you know of any situations where people have died in any
organization and their bodies were removed from the organization to make
it look like they didn’t die, whether of natural causes, so the coroner,
or whoever would be going to another location, away from Scientology to
examine the body and determine the cause of death?
J: The only one that I have specific knowledge of at this time that I
recall is Diane Morrison.
L: Let’s keep going with the next person.
J: I think that’s the end of that list. Margery Wakefield, I made a
note of this because I just remember hearing Marty Rathbun saying
Margery Wakefield, this, Margery Wakefield that. It’s not a case I was
involved in or familiar with, but I was just curious myself of what it
was all about.
L: You never heard any more than that?
J: No.
L: Margie went psychotic and I’ll let you read her story, you can read
it personally and see what happened, we have her affidavit.
J: What I recall is Marty just trying to discredit her as already being
a crazy person in a meeting, I’ll read that and then we’ll come back to
that. The next one I have down here is [reading] "Reverse auditing was
done on Arthur Running Bear. He did become psychotic from the
auditing." I make this note because I know Arthur Running Bear. He was
in RPF in the 70’s, late 70’s. I remember being told that something was
wrong with him. He was kinda off. He was a little crazy, and that he was
being audited. At that time, I mean, I’m talking 1978, ’79, to change
his mind about some things, I don’t know. What I got from that was that
he was a cultural person, with Indian cultural beliefs, and because he
was that way, he was considered to be odd and strange, and needed to be
worked on to change his ideas about spirituality, the role of Native
Americans, and this kind of thing. In all honesty, looking back on it
now, they were just straight prejudiced against him, could not stand
that he was anything besides an American straight blue-eyed white
person, and felt that they needed to do a bunch of work on him to make
him like they were.
L: Did you ever hear anything about him being reverse audited?
J: No, but I know he got a lot of auditing to change him. Whether or not
we’re talking semantics is just another point.
L: Have you ever heard of anyone in Scientology talking about reverse
auditing someone to drive them crazy if they were a security risk, or to
cripple someone psychologically so that they really were non-functional,
that might be a threat to the organization? Have you ever heard anyone
talk about reverse auditing, or deliberately using psychological
techniques to eliminate some problem?
J: The only thing I can think of in relation to that was this roll back
thing, that they practice in Scientology.
L: Roll back, what’s roll back?
J: Roll back is a process that I used to get daily dispatches on it from
L. Ron Hubbard. What it was is a process to catch a spy within the
organization. If you were having problems, or not doing exactly what you
were told, you could be subjected to this roll back procedure, where
they mention Sirhan Sirhan in this, where what is it? Somebody in the
organization is saying something like a plant, and people who have duped
by other people. So they get on a meter and do all of this fool around,
to try to find out who’s influencing you, how were you duped away from
what Scientology is telling you to do, as opposed to what you see in
here. Then they go through this whole procedure, boiling it down to a
person. Then that person, quite naturally gets exploded. At that point
he is given intense sec-checking, he is put under stress to do physical
work, to exhaust him. They are also put on a fore-shortened schedule.
L: What do you mean a fore-shortened schedule?
J: Fore-shortened sleep schedule. Deliberately.
L: Is this to wear down their resistance?
J: And then you have to speak to a master of arms for 4 or 5 hours a day
who is telling how treasonous you are, usurping the organization, and
showing you this and showing you this, and just showing you what a bad
person you are. It just puts you in a frame of, "Oh my God, I’m just so
far away from what I’m trying to do." It makes you doubt your whole
self. It basically makes you crazy. I have seen people go psychotic and
go through their type 3 handling and all of this stuff from intense
sleep deprivation, food deprivation, constant harrangment, and the
physical exhaustion of the work that they make you do.
L: This was done on suspected spies in the organization.
J: Or even if you were a dupe.
L: If you were duped by a suspected spy, they would do this to you as
well.
J: Right.
L: Did this happen often. Did you ever hear about the roll back being
used on people.
J: Well, as a matter of fact, and I hate to say this, this is what L.
Ron Hubbard piloted with me, when I was there. He would send me, he was
telling me "I’m having this idea, there’s some spies in your
organization…." He gave some theory about these things and then he said
this is what I want you to do. It started out with just a 2-question
thing, and I’d send the results back.
L: Were you doing the processes, were you doing them on someone else?
J: I was the one asking the questions. First it turned out to be a
2-question process. Then all of this investigation roll back, on and on
and on. Then he came out with this, he said, "Ok, now we’re going to
check for evil purposes." Then you would have to put a person on a
E-meter and ask them about their evil purposes. What is that, what is
that? You had to get it from them. Whether or not a person had one, or
whatever, it was just made up, it was mind-altering coercive. "I must
be evil, now I’m being asked for evil purposes, now they must be
there." By the time you’re finished with that evil purpose rundown, you
really don’t know, you have no more values, no more foundation, from
thought to even spring from this like, look at this now, look how crazy
I am now.
L: Were you ever instructed, when you were auditing people on the evil
purpose rundown, to just keep at it until you got them to tell an evil
purpose.
J: Oh absolutely, by L. Ron Hubbard, sure.
L: If they said they didn’t have one, and the meter didn’t read on one,
then you would keep asking them?
J: I would have to let them know again what an evil purpose…go over all
the definitions. Then if I couldn’t get them to spit out one
specifically about this specific question, then I would have them to
give one so similar and just word it a little different. It would be
them, yeah.
L: You would keep working, even if they would say they didn’t have any
evil purpose. What if the meter didn’t respond?
J: You know, it’s all hypothetical with the meter, because what is the
meter besides nothing. It reads randomly anyway. 99.99 times it’s going
to do something anyway, because that’s the way it’s set up. It’s going
to stop, it’s going to jerk, it’s going to do something. If you keep
badgering a person it’s going to do something. The meter, that’s
nothing.
L: What’s the next thing on the list?
J: Something about the kids. Well, what I’ve seen with the kids that’s
scary to me is that children that do survive the forced abortion rule,
the ones that lived in the LA area, those children are born, and instead
of given milk or you know, breast feeding them, L. Ron Hubbard figured
out this barley formula that the children drink instead of milk. Just
looking at it now, those children were so under-nourished, just not
whole, complete children, because L. Ron Hubbard figures barley water is
better than milk. This is what these children, some solution of barley
soaked in water and poured over it, that’s what they had. I’ve seen
those children, 15 to 20 of them in a filthy room, filthy carpet, food
everywhere, and playing. If one of them got out of line, they’d just
lock them in a room and let them scream itself to death, or scream
itself to sleep. They’re just started out from the beginning to be
cadets, like little cadet children. They’re put in this thing, the
little cadet organ. They make them do what’s called rocks and shows,
where if they do something that they weren’t told to do, they have to do
sit-ups, push-ups from the cradle they are punished. From the cradle
the children are punished.
L: How are they rewarded?
J: They would have 15 extra minutes to play. Never clothes, never a
thing to have, just like a tiny bit more freedom, a little extra food,
maybe an ice cream.
L: Were any of the women that were…
J: And the parents don’t get a chance to see the children but an hour a
day. An hour a day because they’re working on their posts, by the time
they get home the children are in bed. So if they’re lucky in a week
maybe they’ve seen them maybe 4 or 5 hours. The children are basically
neglected, turned over to these nannies who are giving them barley and
raising the children. The children have no concept of parents and family
and unity. It’s all Scientology. It is just pitiful, it’s pitiful. It’s
horrifying.
L: Were any of these women that were told to get abortions, were any of
them past 3 months pregnant?
J: I don’t know, I can’t say.
L: Let’s keep going on.
J: [Reading] "FACT sources describe a young guy who tried to commit
suicide in early 1992 at the Gold Scientology Center. He was in his
teens or early 20’s. He was the junior of a guy named Olf, who was a
foreigner, maybe from Sweden. This guy was in the mixing group with the
sound people. He had brown hair, pudgy and boyish looking. Something
happened to cause him to attempt suicide at the Gold Center." This
person’s name is Seth Thomas. He has blonde hair. His mother was Susie,
Sue Price.
L: The Sue Price?
J: The Sue Price was his mother.
L: The Sue Price who does the copyrights for Scientology?
J: I don’t know what she does now, she was always a management program.
She was married to a fellow named Bill Price, who was the Flag banking
officer in the Flag org. Seth was another child from an earlier
marriage. He grew up in the cadet org, he was just a completely
depressed illiterate child. He wouldn’t spell, he couldn’t write, he
couldn’t read that well, and he was almost 20 years old.
L: Isn’t Scientology the group that says it has this great st