Tape 7, August 30, 1998 Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince L: Tonight is Sunday the 29th of August. This is Lawrence Wollersheim, I’m with Jesse Prince . Jesse, this will be the last tape that probably is going to be made for a reasonable length of time, and I want to remind you that just what you know, I do this regularly, it’s important. J: Today’s the 30th. L: The 30th, I’m sorry. Just exactly what you know, if you don’t know it, names, dates, events, people involved with anything. Particularly since this is the last time we’re going to talk, and I’ve told you that these tapes are going in to the FBI, don’t hold anything back tonight. In this next 2 hours, or whatever it is, anything that you’ve thought of over the last couple of days, anything that you’ve been reminded of, be sure to get it in the record tonight. As they will take what’s come so far, they will gather this together, and this will be the format for their meeting with you. J: OK. L: OK. So, #1, my first question is, did Scientology ever offer you money since you left Scientology for your silence? J: No. L: They never did? J: They never did. L: Stacy mentioned something about a $3 million offer. J: That was that in ’87. L: When you were in Scientology. Explain the circumstances of this $3 million offer. J: I had left Scientology in ’87, contacted the LA Times and was going to go public at that time. I told them I wanted nothing else to do with the church, and I believe my original figure I asked them for was $10 million. We talked, none of these talks in and of themselves I considered to be serious because they were working on other things which worked for them, which was my ex-wife. And that was that. L: So you went to the LA Times? J: I called them on the phone. L: You called the LA Times, and then Scientology contacted you, and did you initiate to them you were going to go public unless they paid you $10 million or did they say, "Jesse, we can work this out"? J: Pretty much that. L: No, I need to know clearly, did you initiate the asking for the money or did they? J: They. L: So they said to you… tell me what was said and who said it. J: This was at the very beginning, I’m trying to think of who it was, who was my handler. My handler was Ray Mithoff, and there was another person, somebody from Gold, maybe Ron Norton, maybe Wendell Reynolds. L: How did it come up? They said… J: Well, I’ll tell you specifically. It was like, I’m leaving here, "What are you going to do? What are you going to do?" I said, well, besides expose you [Scientology] and stuff, I had also capital myself at the time. I was, I’m not concerned with what I’m going to do. It was related, "If you’re gonna, if you do take this choice, you’re going to need some help, you’re going to need something. You’re going to need some money to get started." I was like, "Oh you want me just to go away. It’ll be about $10 million." L: That’s what you said, what did they say then? J: They laughed. I can’t say that I was serious about it either, because I was very emotional at the time. It was a very emotional situation. We didn’t discuss it very much further than that, because of the high emotion. You know, people say things… L: How did this $3 million amount come up? J: I’m trying to think if it was Marty that said, "Oh, but you’ll take 3"? I said, "Probably." I want to make a point so that there’s no confusion about this. These talks were not serious. These talks were done in the heat of the moment, because I had left and I was completely out of their control. Now I’m in the city, where if somebody tries to grab me and hold me I can scream and someone will call the police. Now, I’m not on their turf. I’m somewhere else where I have civil rights and they know that. That’s pretty much what that was about. L: So, after these discussions then you went back into Scientology then? J: Yeah. L: Why? J: Because my ex-wife who was still there couldn’t see that we shouldn’t be there, and I had compassion for her, and I stayed for her until she saw that this wasn’t where we needed to be. L: Did she come out and ask you to stay? J: Yes. L: So she was part of the handling? J: Right. L: To have her come out there and basically ask, beg, cajole, what word would best describe it? J: The way that it’s best described is pretty much how I said it. Her and I loved each other very much, and this was something that was extremely upsetting to her. She was crying. L: The fact that you were leaving and she couldn’t see you anymore? J: Right. L: So you decided to come back in? J: Right. Specifically because I started waking up to what was going on and she didn’t. L: After 1987, did you rise in the organization, or what was the end? J: I didn’t try, I wouldn’t do anything. L: From that point on you were at lower level positions? J: I was in the lower state of mind. It’s kind of like I had no real will to live. L: Do you think they trusted you after that point? J: I don’t know what they did, I’m just trying to indicate to you where I was at. I had no will to live. I was just existing. L: OK. When you finally left Scientology, were you ever taken into a room with lawyers and a videotape camera to get you to sign documents stating you’d never talk about what happened with you and Scientology? J: Yeah. L: Did you feel, did they videotape you at the time? J: I think they did a tape recorder, yeah, they probably videotaped it too. L: And did they ever say anything like, "you are doing this on your own free will"? J: Let me just communicate to you a concept so that you get the idea about this. I’m in a situation where my wife finally sees the light. They’ve done everything to us, they’ve sec checked us, they’ve degraded us in every way that they possibly can, simply because we want to leave. Now the thing that they had on us was the fact that she still has family in Scientology. Her father, who is the person that she looks up to more than anybody in her life, and her sister. Then they looked like twins. They told her and me that she would never see them again unless we did what they wanted us to do. L: They told you you’d never see her parents again? J: Right, never talk to them. L: Unless you did exactly what they told you. What did they tell you to do? J: Sign what they told us to sign. When it came to videotaping and recording and doing all of that stuff, it’s like this, and I want you to really get this idea. "Here’s jail, here’s freedom. If you do A,B, and C you can leave jail and do freedom." That was my state of mind at that time. You’ve got to know that. You’ve got to know that I did whatever I did what I had to do to leave that place so that my wife could still be in contact with her family and we could physically leave. L: I understand that completely. J: I did not read the papers. L: I am not asking as an adversary, I’m asking for the record, don’t see me as an adversary. J: No I don’t, I’m making a record with these questions, because there’s a bit of human compassion involved in this, there’s a bit of human emotion involved in this. Like I said, I didn’t even read the papers. If there is video, and they have that video, and you will see when they handed me the papers to read, I just signed. L: You never read the papers, did they explain them to you verbally? J: Oh, they went all over it, and asked me if I had any questions. No. L: So you didn’t read it, they explained it to you. J: If you look at the very beginning of the tape, we drew a line in the sand, and that line of sand was this. "If I do this last thing you tell me, can we go?" And they said, "yes." You’ve got to understand, there was a line drawn in the sand. I don’t care what video they’ve got, I don’t care what tape machine they had, the agreement was if I do this last thing, her and I could walk out. If that meant taking a handful of shit, and throwing it across the room I would have done it. L: Your understanding was that you would not be free from their restraint and their control unless you signed a document? J: Or whatever they asked me to do this one time. L: Did you have a lawyer representing you in the room? J: You know better. No. L: Did they give you a copy of each document when you left, so they kept all the copies. J: Everything. L: You never read the document. J: They took all my wedding photos, they took the majority of my possessions from me. I left there with one trunk, no, two trunks of things from 16 years of living a bad life, leaving a good life, I left there with two trunks. They took everything I had. L: Did they pay you for the stuff they took? J: No. L: What right did they have to take it? J: That’s a question you can ask them. That’s a rhetorical question. Obviously they had no right. L: At the point that you decided to let them have it, it was freedom vs. letting them take these things? J: Right. L: You wanted to get out of there. J: That’s right. You’re behind bars and a person says, if you do 1, 2, and 3, you can walk, I guarantee you’re going to 1, 2, and 3. L: Was there a lawyer for Scientology in the room? J: Yes. L: Do you remember what his name was? J: No. L; Could you describe him, or if you heard his name would you remember it. J: If I heard his name I would remember it. I just want to make one thing clear about this. These were some of the blackest moments of my life. It wasn’t a whole lot of consciousness there. L: I do understand. So you didn’t read it, you signed it… J: And ran out the door. L: You ran out the door because it was the only way to get away from the people. J: They changed the document, let me speak for a second. It happened on the 31st of October, not the 1st of November. They wrote 1st of November. It happened on the night of the 31st of October. The night that I signed it, they said, "Don’t you just want to stay, you can leave in the morning?" I said, "Hell no, I want to leave when this pen goes to paper and I sign this, I want to leave in that instant." That’s how it happened. L: They altered the date of the actual document as well? J: Right. L: Did they tell you that you had to be silent about your experiences, everything that ever happened to you in Scientology that they told you? J: Well, the document that I signed kind of speaks for itself. You read that, it’s pretty much what it says. L: You’ve seen it now, and actually read it. They presented.. J: No, I still haven’t read it. L: You have never actually read it. These are specific questions that have bearings in law, that’s why I’m asking them. I’m not testing you, challenging you or doubting what you’re saying. I’m asking questions that help me to understand the legal premise that was going on. Did they tell you or inform you that a confidentiality agreement has no bearing if it’s designed to cover up acts of fraud or criminality? J: No. L: At a certain point you met with Earl Cooley. J: 1995. L: An attorney for Scientology. Why did you go out there, what was the reason you went out there? J: I went out there because they said they wanted to talk to me to see how things were going with me personally, and to talk me to about the Aznarans’ case. You have to understand something about me. When you ask another question, please let me talk. I am still a Scientologist in my mind. Not a Sea Org member, but I’m working at a Scientology corporation that they arranged, subsequent to that meeting as a matter of fact, I was a booking agent. My wife is still very much into wanting to have a family, wanting to be able to talk to her father, wanting to be able to talk to her sister. My wife, my ex-wife, was off on a program trying to get her whole family together from this Scientology experience. It was very important to her at that time, that we maintain good relationships with Scientology. Her and I had talked, and as we unraveled over a 2 ½ period of years from Scientology, we had pretty much decided that anything to do with Scientology, technological-wise, ethics-wise, and administrative-wise was just complete much bullshit. We came to an understanding that her and I were two very confused people and were having a very difficult time in the world together. It was still paramount to her to have her family. So during this time period, we’re still very much under their control. They would call, like once a month, twice a month, Mike Sutter would call, "What you doing," this and that. Also people watched us, similar to what’s going on now. L: PIs would occasionally follow you in Minneapolis? J: Yes. L: This occurred over what length of time? J: 2 ½ year period. I’m still pretty much under this blanket of fear of Scientology for my wife’s sake and also for job’s sake, because Mike Sutter made an innuendo that "If you’re not doing what we say, we can make it very difficult for you in the world, because we have major connections in all kinds of business. And if you start doing something that we don’t like, life will be difficult for you." L: He said that to you, Mike Sutter? J: Mike Sutter. L: Mike Sutter made a threat that your economic life would be affected if you give us any trouble. Were you working in a Scientology company? J: At that time when he made that threat, no. L: How long after you left Scientology did you work for a Scientology company? J: When I first got out, I took a bunch of odd jobs, this that and the other. I think after a year and a half, then I started working for this Scientology company, at which the whole Scientology machine just went back in together. They would call the job where I worked. Mike Sutter, "Hey what’s happening, what you doing, you working for this Scientologist. You’ve got to keep your nose clean. You need to do an OW write-up." All this shit, so I’m fighting after I had some little bit of relief from Scientology, now I’m right back into it. Now this person that I work for is just driving me tremendously with this Scientology stuff. She’s trying to get me to be a qualifications officer, and recruit other people into Scientology, do weekly OW, just like they do in the Sea Org, and then I started resisting it. L: Let me ask you a question. Is it reasonable that she was brought in by the GO to keep an eye on you and they were pumping reports through her as the employer? J: I would say this she was an instrument and an arm of Mike Sutter, who reported directly to David Miscavige. L: So they’re very much worried about you? J: No. They very much still have me under control. L: You mentioned the Aznarans, as the reason why you were going to see Earl Cooley, can you elaborate on that? J: Well, not really, because when I got up there, that was not what they wanted to talk about. L: Why did you think you were going to see Earl Cooley? J: I thought I was going to see Earl Cooley for a reason that I didn’t know, which was "We want to see how you’re doing, who you’ve been talking to," which makes no damn sense The primary reason I went out there I didn’t understand; the secondary they wanted to talk to me about the Aznaran thing, which they did very little of. L: They were worried about Rick and Vicky Aznaran? J: You’ve got to listen to me, this is what they were worried about. Because I found this out later. They figured my statute of limitations had run up, and my ability to sue them. In other words, I guess three years had passed, or whatever, and now I can no longer sue them. This is what we talked about when I went there. The Aznaran case, none of that. Listen to me. They talked to me about my ability to sue them, Monica’s [Jesse’s ex-wife’s] ability to sue them, who any disaffected person’s been calling us this. I met with them and spoke to them, I was just there for a couple days. The first day was consumed with what I’ve been doing in detail. The second day, which we only met for an hour and a half, to the best of my knowledge, they started talking to me about other cases that I had been involved in and did not need anything from me whatsoever. I left. L: Did they give you any walking around money? J: $3,000. L: They gave you $3,000 cash. J: And paid all my expenses. L: $3,000 cash and paid for your hotel and your airline? J: And my rental car and everything. And to go up, fly to New York. I didn’t go back home, I want to New York when I left there. L: They even paid for an extra flight that had nothing to do with it? J: Right. L: How much to you think all that other cost was for those other 2 days you were there? J: About $4,500 because I stayed at the Boston Harbor Hotel, which is the top hotel. I had a suite to myself, a beautiful bedroom, a living room, food delivered and all of this and everything. L: Your expenses were about $1,500 for two days and they gave you $3,000 cash, which is $4,500? J: I’d say approximately that amount. L: They gave you $3,000 walking around money? J: For 2 ½ days. L: For 2 ½ days. Very interesting. When you were at Earl Cooley’s office, just as a note, your statute of limitation runs from the point you discover fraud or deception, truly understand and discover fraud and deception, five years. If you didn’t know you had been deceived of defrauded, it’s from the point you finally understand. So you may still have a lawsuit against them. J: Well… L: If you were under their control and under their influence and they were lying to you about the law, you very well may have a lawsuit, but that’s neither here no there. When you were at Earl Cooley’s office, did they videotape you in any way? J: I know we recorded it, I’m not certain about videotaping. L: So they had a voice recorder on and they were asking you questions. Did they ask you to sign any more documents? J: Not that I know of. L: But they were asking who you had talked with and who you were involved with? J: How much money do I make, how is it where I live. Just a zillion questions. L: What do you think they were looking for? J: Exactly what I said, I think they were looking to see whether or not I had come to myself enough, or if someone had talked to me to where I had my strength back and my mind back to fight them. L: Did Early Cooley make any threats to you, or did anyone there make any threats if you would speak about things in your confidentiality agreement that your life would be very difficult? J: Not at that time, but they just told me -- because in fact there had been no instances because I was literally in hiding. No one knew where I was. They told me to make sure that if anyone ever called me or said anything to me, for me to call them immediately and gave me several numbers to reach them at. L: OK. Has there been any other attempted coups in Scientology, other than when Miscavige took Mary Sue Hubbard and the old GO out and the guardian’s office out and took out all those people and replaced them with himself and a new power structure? Did you ever hear of an attempted coup of other executives rebelling against Miscavige and saying that he needs to be removed from post, he should be ComEv-ed [?], or he’s insane? J: Beyond what I’ve spoken about, nothing else. L: You were in Scientology for 16 years, you’ve disclosed a lot of information that some day will pieces will be out in the public, if not all of it. Scientologists are also mid-level executives are going to read this and they’re going to say either, "Jesse’s the biggest liar in shoe leather, or these things really happened, and I’ve got to start to think about it." What do you think will have to happen inside of Scientology for people to understand what you know about the organization, and to do something inside? In other words, for other members to go "Oh my God, there’s these unknown corporations and bank accounts that nobody knows about." I mean… J: I just don’t think it’s as simple as that, Lawrence, that problem goes beyond that. The normal person, who you and I said, as incredulous as it is, who makes $24, $32 a week, they’ve been in the Sea Org any length of time, they’re already completely disassociated from their family. They have no place to go, they have no other options. In their minds, they are exercising the best option that they have because everyone hates them, and they have no place to go. L: You believe that nothing would shake their minds enough to challenge? J: Oh yeah, I do. L: What would shake their minds enough to challenge the top? J: If the threat were removed, David Miscavige, Norman Starkey, Marty Rathbun, these people that are perpetuating these criminal activities, that makes them increasingly more frantic to make increasingly more money to cover the increasing cost of expense of these criminal activities. It’s just a circle jerk. You start it, and it’s just unending, a frantic circle. L: So they have to be either removed by the government, or they have to have flown, or... J: Be gone. L: Do you ever see, like the next tier of OSA people, who aren’t at Rathbun’s level, who aren’t Miscavige, Rathbun, Spurlock and Starkey. Do you ever see the people just underneath that, or just underneath the next level saying, "We’ve seen enough to know that for the good of Scientology we now need to put you guys under arrest. You’ve embezzled millions of dollars out of the organization, you are harming us, you are harming everything we thought we were doing"? You don’t see that as ever happening? J: No, because the people that are right underneath those people are being influenced and demanded to do enough criminal activities themselves so that… L: So the Mike Render level? J: Right. No, forget it. L: They’re involved in the criminal activities as well. J: And the lying, and the perpetrating of lies. They know about it, they’re not the ones that are making the decisions of what to do, but they certainly are actively involved. L: So he’s tracked them in the criminal cycle, so that if he goes down the go down as well, and the people so far down the organization don’t have enough power? J: They don’t have a clue of what’s going on. L: And they don’t have the power to do a coup anyways, that would be credible. J: Right. Because David Miscavige, as we’ve gone over earlier, has his people, has all the trustees, there’s a zillion, every one who’s on the board of directors, has an undated resignation, whereas if they do one thing out of line, they’re gone. L: They’re gone, they’re just removed. J: Removed. And the net one comes up. L: And the lawyers are all in on this as well, they’re getting big money. So that what you’re saying is that the only way Scientology is going to be fixed is if… J: From the outside. L: Federal government and countries all over the world arresting these people, trying them on criminal charger, and where proven, putting them in jail. J: Outside intervention based on the facts. That’s what’s going to change it. Because, inherently, the organization is bent. Inherently the organization is bent because L. Ron Hubbard was bent. Irrespective of who was on the top, if you read L. Ron Hubbard’s policies and if you follow them, just like that old GO had, and the lying, TRs and all that kind of stuff, he is bent. Everyone that’s going along that path is going to be bent to a greater or lesser degree, or be susceptible to it. L: He’s created a machine that reproduces himself? J: Right. L: OK. What other defectors do you know of besides yourself, who would have knowledge of criminal activities in Scientology? J: Pat Brice L: She’s in Portland, Oregon J: Mike Eldrich, somewhere in Florida. L: What did Mike Eldrich do and what would he have criminal knowledge of? J: He worked at Author Services. He was like their auditor and their core person for many years. He would have a vast amount of information if his eyes were open. L: Specifically any areas that he might? J: The raping of the Scientology organizations by Author Services. L: Financial. J: Financial irregularities, financial fraud. He would have a lot of information about that, and also, the corporate sham that’s perpetrated by Scientology and that there is no such thing as separate corporations. There’s just the appearance of it on paper. In practice and reality there isn’t. L: What else would Sue Price know? J: Sue Price? L: I mean not Sue Price, but Pat Brice, beside the copyright fraud that you talked about? J: Now that’s an interesting question. She was L. Ron Hubbard’s personal secretary. Therefore, she would receive separate instructions from him, as I would from my position in the organization. I’m not privy to everything that was sent to her. L: Would she be aware of the vast amounts of cash that were delivered to L. Ron Hubbard? J: No, but Mike Eldridge would. L: Mike Eldridge. What other executives that have left Scientology would have knowledge about criminal activities in the oganization? J: Don Larson. L: Don Larson. What type of? J: Financial. L: Financial, like moving money to foreign countries? J: Moving money, extorting money, blackmailing…. L: Extortion, blackmail? Specifically when you say extortion, do you a memory of something specific? J: The mission holders. L: Blackmail and extortion over the mission holders, to take their accounts away from them, these separate corporations? J: Right. L: Anything else that he would have knowledge about? J: Bank transfers. He would have more specific detail about where the money goes. L: Like foreign countries, foreign accounts? J: Right. Who, what names are under. L: Who is signatories… J: Right. L: Do you have any idea where he was last located? J: I mean, he’s on that video, I’m sure he can be found. L: What other executives have left Scientology that would have knowledge of criminal activities? J: Vicky and Rick Aznaran. L: Vicky and Rick Aznaran, what would Vicky know? J: Specifically about the black operations by Scientology, perpetrated on their own public, on staff members and the public, and people in general. L: You mean, black operations on public on-lines in good standing. Covert operations on… J: Right. L: The people that weren’t declared… J: Let me put it in focus. Like we bug Holly and Bill Finell, that kind of thing. Bugging staff members, doing these. These things that I spoke of. L: Did they ever bug public persons who weren’t staff members that you know of? J: David Mayo. L: OK. J: I am not telling you anything new, I’m just answering the question in a different way, I’ve answered that before. You ask me what other executives, Vicky Aznaran, Rick Aznaran. L: Would she know any more about the bugging, or any other criminal acts that Vicky Aznaran would have been privy to? J: Maybe, maybe not. I think her affidavits before she was bought off speaks for themselves. L: What about Rick Aznaran, what other criminal activity do you think he was involved with? J: Financial, and black ops. L: Black corporate operations, stealing records, things like that? J: As I’ve said earlier, planting drugs on people, this kind of shit. L: What other executives do you think that have left Scientology, Pat Broeker, what would be the kind of knowledge that he would have? J: Corporate sham. Financial sham, just money on demand for L. Ron Hubbard. Cash, no checks. Cash. L: Were there records kept of this cash? J: None that I was privy to. L: Would he know if the will of L. Ron Hubbard was authentic or not? J: Yep. L: He would know if the will or the estate, the last will and testament was a forgery or was a real thing? Who else would know if Hubbard’s last will and testament was… J: That’s outside of the church? L: Or inside the church. J: Ray Mithoff would know, Norman Starkey would know, David Miscavige would know. As I said earlier in our interview, David Miscavige and Norman Starkey could imitate L. Ron Hubbard’s signature perfectly. They showed it to me and laughed about it. That’s the best I can answer that question. L: Do you know any other executives who left Scientology who would have knowledge of Scientology’s criminal activities? J: No. L: Mark Yeager? J: Has left? L: I didn’t know if he was still in or not. J: That’s the point. L: Does anyone know if he’s still in? J: Not me. L: What about Terry Gamboa? J: Terry Gamboa would know, Janis Grady would know. L: They would have known? J: Janis not so much, but Terry Gamboa would. L: The type of criminal activity she would be most familiar with? J: Finance, corporate shenanigans, corporate integrity. L: Anyone else that you know or has heard of that has left that... Or let me ask this another way, when you were in, what factors were they most worried about? J: Gerry Armstrong , Lawrence Wollersheim, that girl up in Portland, the Portland case… L: Julie Tischborn [?]? J: Julie Tischborn [?]. L: Any other staff? J: David Mayo. L: David Mayo. J: Bent Corydon. L: Bent Corydon. OK. You have mentioned before that David Miscavige, Norman Starkey, Lyman Spurlock and Marty Rathbun are the four that are most knowledgeable and most involved in Scientology’s past and current criminal activities. Beside those four, you also mentioned a… J: Ben Shaw. L: Ben Shaw. What other executives are… J: Jeff Schriver, as far as the black ops thing. Gary Clinger. L: Gary Clinger. The people that deal with the most secret stuff in Scientology. J: Marine Bergatti. L: Marine Bergatti, she’s out of England? J: Right. L: She makes regular trips in and out of the United States, has a passport? J: Wendall Reynolds would know finance. He could tell you, because he did the whole thing. L: He would have knowledge related to the IRS. J: Another secret little person in the back that’s right up there, that’s maybe a notch and a half below David Miscavige is Mark Ingbert. L: He would have knowledge about criminal activity? J: Financial criminal activities. L: Any of the other top executives that you know that would be the ones most knowledgeable or most involved in criminal activity going on inside of Scientology? J: No, I think that covers it all. L: Besides Mart Rathbun being the weakest link and most likely to possibly turn states’ evidence or leave, rather than go to jail himself when they start prosecuting these crimes, is there anyone else in that group of people that you think would be the second most likely person that would say, "I’m not going to jail for all this." J: Lyman Spurlock. L: Lyman Spurlock, why do you say that? J: Because he is loaded with crimes, he’s loaded with doing the corporate, I mean, as a matter of fact, Dave Miscavige and Norman could easily point their finger to him and say, "He did it." It’s not real to people how these people operate under orders, but, because by his hand a lot of things happened. L: Do you think they would set it up that way that if something happened, you know, the old Mary Sue was not following policy, this is the renegade in the organization. Do you believe that if David Miscavige or Starkey could avoid the criminal charges and frame one of these other people, would they be loyal or would the frame them? J: They would frame them in a heartbeat. Like I said, Scientology has a theory, a bent theory. We’ve seen L. Ron Hubbard’s wife go to jail based on orders he was having her execute. So, there is no dignity. L: So do you think that before, in earlier discussions, you said Scientology goes to great lengths to try to predict what’s going to happen in a high risk situation and cover it in advance. Do you think that Miscavige, or Miscavige and Starkey, are the two top people – first Miscavige then Starkey, or is their someone else? J: Starkey is like a satellite person. He doesn’t have presence of mind, or the drive, or the intelligence, to do anything. L: Who is second in command of Scientology right now under Miscavige? J: I don’t think there is one. L: Miscavige is running… J: He doesn’t allow that. L: Doesn’t trust anyone else? J: No. L: So, do you believe that Miscavige may have pre-anticipated someone turning on him, set them up with a series of obvious clear criminal activity that could go right to that person immediately? J: I think Lyman Spurlock is that person, as well as Marty Rathbun. L: So they’re the fall guys if you go after Miscavige, Miscavige will sacrifice them, come up with a story that they’re renegades, they weren’t following Scientology. J: He may do 6 months with what they can get on him. It’s all these other people, because their names are signed. L: He induced them, he ordered them to do these crimes, their names are on it, they’re going to the big time jail thing. David is the invisible guy. J: We’re leaving out the attorneys too. In this equation of who needs to go down, we’re not looking at the fact that some of these attorneys, Larry Heller, the Lenske brothers, are just as key players. If you’re talking about somebody that’s running Scientology, besides David Miscavige, they you need to look toward the attorneys. L: There’s a group of attorneys. Anyone besides Larry Heller and the Lenske brothers, who are knowledgeable about criminal activity of Scientology and/or involved in it? We mentioned Earl Cooley. J: Earl Cooley was like a Johnny-come-lately. These other people have been doing it forever. L: Do you think it’s possible that they’re even instructing Miscavige how to set these other guys up as fall guys if something goes wrong? J: Sure. L: Is it unreasonable for me to think they don’t already have their fall-back plan when this comes up to sacrifice these people, because you’ve kind of expressed they anticipate everything? J: I think, now we’re just getting into theories, way beyond fact. You ask me what I think, I think that they have a plan to have a sacrifice, and I think their plan is not to be in the country. L: So they’ll set up some of these other lower level executives… J: That know nothing, and people the government, whoever’s investigating, could spend years talking to them because the fact of the matter is the don’t know anything. L: They’re the fall guys when they flee. You mentioned a few days ago that you believe there was two version of OT VIII, one where Miscavige kind of freaked out, the first version and he was real worried, this guy quit Scientology after reading it. We discussed that may be in some form this version of OT VIII had been circulating where Hubbard claims to be the anti-Christ. One of the things that I’m interested in is, what auditors or CSs were around when the original OT VIII was being run on the Freewinds who could verify who were the people… J: It’s a very interesting question. I can’t answer it. L: So the only person that you knows for sure is David Miscavige? J: David Miscavige, and Ray Mithoff, and David Mayo would know, I do believe he would know. No, David Mayo wouldn’t know. He wouldn’t know. L: You don’t know any of the Freewinds CSs or top auditors, because they would probably put their top auditors on that… J: I don’t know any of those people. L: Who in Scientology, what executive, would be most likely to know the name? You mentioned that there was Miscavige said that, implied that they have someone inside the IRS working to help them to get their tax exempt status? J: Two people that would know that, the three people that would know that would be Lyman Spurlock, no, four people that would know that: Lyman Spurlock, Dave Miscavige, Marty Rathbun and Norm Starkey. L: What about the attorney who recruited the person? J: I think that, that’s a rhetorical question, if you recruit them you would know. L: Do you know the name of that attorney who recruited the person inside the IRS? J: No. That was on a need-to-know basis. L: I’m going to throw out a couple of names here. There’s a law firm called Williams and Connley in Washington, D.C., and a guy by the name of Pfeiffer. J: Yes. L: You’ve heard that name? J: That is probably the attorney that… L: Gerald Pfeiffer. That contracted a former IRS agent.. J: Or somebody he knew did it. L: That name is familiar with you? J: Pfeiffer is a name that is familiar with me, as working on the IRS stuff. L: Do you ever hear the name Monique Yingling, working on the IRS stuff? J: Yes. Beyond just having some brain recognition of what that is, I can’t go beyond that. L: So it was those four people and the attorney who recruited this retired IRS guy to go and find somebody inside the IRS for them? OK. You mentioned David Miscavige would smile after he would some very ruthless thing, like when he literally coerced Mary Sue Hubbard into giving up her family’s fortune, which some people estimate at $400 million. J: I think it’s way more than that. L: Way more than $400 million? OK. But, you said he was smiling for a week, just overjoyed that he had gotten this woman to give up all of her assets for $100,000. Do you recall any other times that David Miscavige was particularly happy about one of his exploits? J: Sure, when he got rid of Pat Broecker and me, and Annie Broecker. L: How did you know he was happy about that? J: I saw it, I saw it, I was sitting there. L: He was overjoyed that he removed all three of you? Any other exploits that David Miscavige took great relish and joy in, and felt like he had accomplished something great for himself or Scientology when he had done something? J: In the ways we are speaking of? L: Could be in anything. J: That’s too general of a question. Let’s take a break. [BREAK] L: I’ve said to you several times that at some point this and all part is going to go public. J: By my own hand that’s going to happen. I don’t even care about this. I’m going to do it myself, on the Internet. I care about this, but I’m not counting on it. L: OK. You’re going to start talking yourself. J: Immediately, starting tomorrow. L: If you… [SIDE OF TAPE ENDS] L: What would you want the executives who have this knowledge about Scientology’s criminal activity, or where people were harmed, or where people committed suicide, where’s it all covered up, or there was a suicide that was covered up, what would you say to these executives who are out there, former Scientology executives, who are probably afraid to speak out and come forward and tell their piece of what happened in Scientology, what is happening? What would you say to them? What would you want them to know right now? J: Firstly, I don’t have a segregated message to different publics, or different markets of Scientology. I have a message for anyone that’s involved in it, that has been hurt and woke up and saw it for what it was. What I would say to those people, each and every one of them is to please help roll back this blanket of fear. Please, let’s stop them in their ability to decimate the lives of anyone simply because they have money, power, resources. This is America, this is a liberal country, and this is what we all strive to do, day in and day out, to keep this country the way it is. I would say to please stop being selfish, please stop thinking of yourself, and think of humanity, America, your city, just as a whole. Let’s just get this out of the way. It’s not that hard to remove this illness because the people are so outlandish and so out of control. The key would be, if you’ve got information about these lawyers and how they work with these Scientologists to come up with all these crazy-ass schemes, well then step forward. It’s everyone’s responsibility to do something about this. L: In law there’s a concept called due diligence. When it applies to lawyers, it means that a lawyer has to use due diligence as an officer of the court to ensure that he is abiding by the ethics and acting in a lawful manner when he represents any client. He cannot engage in illegal activity, he can’t even, if there’s a reasonable situation where one could believe that there was something unlawful going on and he was being asked to participate in presenting false documents to the court, or presenting stolen documents, or being involved in stealing records, or intimidation of judges or intimidation of witnesses. Even if he had a reasonable feeling that this was going on, he couldn’t turn his back and say, "Don’t tell me about these criminal activities." Under due diligence, if he senses that there’s crimes being committed, and he has an awareness of it, he had a responsibility as a lawyer and officer of the court, to report it or not be involved in it. If… J: I haven’t seen one that hasn’t been compromised. L: Not one single law firm that works for Scientology… J: …have I not seen compromise on this point of due diligence as you are talking about. I have seen everyone that I personally worked with, Joe Yanni, Tom Small, Heller, the Lenske brothers, Earl Cooley, I mean the list goes on and on. They are exposed to it, they immediately see it for what it is. John Peterson, may he rest in peace. The common thing that they say is, "I don’t want to hear about that, or I don’t want to know about that, or I will discuss this only with certain people." Beyond that, and I’ve said specifics already, beyond that, as a general statement, that’s what I’m saying. L: So, a lawyer who does not do due diligence exposes his insurance company to be liable for the criminal acts or damage that is incurred because he is saying "Don’t tell me about this, I don’t want to hear about it," or "We only discuss it with certain people." I want to go over the names of couple of lawyers and law firms that you may be aware of: Eric M. Lieberman.. J: Yep. L: Rabinowitz, Bodine & Standard, Prinsky & Lieberman is the law firm. J: Right. L: Do you believe that he is knowledgeable about the criminal and illegal activities of Scientology? J: Very much so. L: He and his firm has failed to do anything to do the proper due diligence? J: Yes. And, as an investigatory procedure, just find out, just audit this attorney firm, specifically concerning its relationship with Scientology and take a look at what they’re paying for investigatory services. L: What portion is investigation? J: Yep, that will open up a wide door for a train to fly through. L: Have you ever heard of a gentleman named Reeve E. Chud from Irvine, Cohen and Jessup a law firm? J: No. L: A Meade Emery or Leon Mistereck of Lesword, Patten, Flemming, Hartung and Emory, out of Seattle? They are involved in setting up the tax exempt status for Scientology. J: No, I’m not familiar with them. L: Christopher Cobb. J: Yep. Chris Cobb, he’s got them long teeth. Yes, he’s another one that was very similar to John Peterson, but I think he got retired. But he is very knowledgeable about the insanity that the church does to former members, current members, or other critics of Scientology. L: So, he would fall into that category… J: He’s one of them OSA attorneys. He’s right on the Invest lines. L: He’s one of the ore dirt attorneys. J: Very much so. L: Knows about the criminal activities, probably was involved in them. J: Very much so. L: Lawrence E. May of Valency and Rose. J: Not familiar. L: Tom Small? J: Yep, familiar. Trademark attorney, copyright attorney. As I stated earlier, he may have had some dealings to do with those false copyright filings. L: He may have known they were false, he participated. J: Another person who his firm, who has since left because he was gay and everybody made fun of him. I don’t remember his name. L: An attorney of Michael Wells of Maury and Ota? Is that familiar? J: No. L: How about, OK, Gerald Pfeiffer of Williams and Connolly, would be involved in attorneys who do not do due diligence and have knowledge of criminal activities. J: Yes, I believe so. L: Monique Yingling of Yingling and Yingling? J: Now, as I said, I have only heard her name. I have never made with contact with her or have any specific information that comes to mind about her. L: OK. Is it your belief, after your work with Scientology attorneys, that they don’t work for Scientology unless they’re dirty? J: Yes. L: In other you don’t get the big fees unless you’re willing to go along with what Miscavige is basically ordering and doing? J: They’ve been turned down by firms like, "No, I don’t want nothing to do with you." L: You know other law firms… J: …that refuse them, yes. L: Many law firms refuse them? J: I’d say it may be. There was one all the way down at the end of Sunset in Hollywood that was a big firm, that didn’t want anything to do with them. I know it’s common when they’re researching firms, you know, you mention Scientology and they’re like out the door. There are many of them that say, "No." L: They want nothing to do with them, they know about these practices. OK. You mentioned that David Miscavige has a safe full of gold and silver bars and precious coins. And you mentioned that there’s a secret corporation that nobody know about. J: Another one besides CSC. L: Another one. And there’s bank accounts that nobody knows about besides a few people at the top of Scientology, who knows how many millions of dollars there are in these, and who the signatories are? J: The people that know where all the money is in Scientology are Maurine Bergatti, Mark Ingbert, David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock. L: Do you think anyone of them knows all of it? J: I think the ones that I just said all know. L: You mentioned that the top people with the vacations and they money they’re getting and all the gratuities they’re taking off the top of Scientology could be making as much as $500,000 a year to $700,000 a year. If Miscavige is letting those people take that amount of money and he’s got a safe full of gold and silver bars and precious coins, would it be unreasonable to think that he’s taking more than they area? J: That’s all hypothetical, speculation, and I’m going to stick to the facts. L: Just wanted to see if you have an idea, if you don’t, you don’t. There’s a couple of other attorneys: Keith True, has his own law firm, Bridge Publications. J: Never heard of him. L: Johnson & O’Meara. J: That sounds familiar. L: Leo Johnson, Nancy O’Meara. J: What did they do? L: They’re members of the board of COST. Sherman Lenske, we talked about him. J: This 1981… See, prior to me becoming an international executive, I was just a person that worked at Flag on technical lines, and didn’t understand what MCCS was about, or all that corporate sort, all those missions, I was just not a part of it. By the time I did become part of international management, not only was it still not part of my areas of control, it had pretty much happened, and they were just tweaking it a little bit by making these other corporations, CST, and this other one that I mentioned about. L: Secret corporations somewhere in California, that they transfer everything to. J: If something happens to CSC then it goes to that corporation. L: What the IRS doesn’t know about is, see, Scientology set up a deal with the IRS where one corporation leases the copyrights and trademarks to another one, and one of the things the IRS was very concerned with, as best I understand it, is that the assets were moving from corporation to corporation, and the were very upset that the assets would go back to COST. What you’re telling me is that there’s even a back-up secret corporation beyond CST where the assets will go if problem? J: Yeah, and I don’t know exactly how secret it is, I know it has to be registered. It can’t be a corporation that exists without it being registered. But there was one that was outside of my knowledge, that was set up by the attorneys, as is all the other ones, to keep moving money around. L: Did you ever hear anyone speak of the total net worth of Scientology? Anyone ever say, "We’re worth 2 billion, 5 billion, 3 billion." J: No, we kind of went over this the last time we did this. L: Just checking. Have you heard anything about a bullet proof, bomb-proof bunker being built, they’re nicknaming it The Fort? J: Yes, there’s a video about it by Norman Starkey. That specifically, with the titanium and explosion proof, and radiation proof, and on and on and on and on. This is on plates with gold on them, all the stuff is on plates etched in gold. L: Is that the Mendicino storage site that’s dug into the side of a, up in Mendicino? J: I believe it is, I believe that’s where CST is up there. L: Mendicino county, a little town right on the… J: Up in the mountains. L: Have you heard anything about, there’s some new construction of a bullet proof, bomb proof, bunker, they’re calling it The Fort in Hemet? J: No. L: Is your belief they would build something like this just because they’re afraid of a nuclear war, or… J: Speculation. I don’t know what they hell they’re doing it for. L: Do you know anything about an attorney by the name of Charles Parcell? J: That name sounds familiar, but I don’t, I have nothing to relate it to. L: Is there any other act, criminal or otherwise that you think that I have not asked you about? I hate to make this sound like a sec check question. I sounds a little bit like that. J: And you know I’m tired of it. L: I really need to know Jesse, have you remembered anything in the past few days that is something about Scientology that people should know about that’s either dangerous or criminal, or just wrong, or just vicious, or cruel, or ruthless, whatever you want to call it, that in your experience when you were in really stuck in your mind as "This is just way over the line?" J: There is, there’s nothing new. I’ve said everything to the best of my ability. L: Let’s finish up here. We are done. [END OF TAPE]