Tape 6, August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse PrinceJ: I became severely kind of upset at that point and actually left the
OTIII course and, they get you back in there. You have to do it anyway,
but as part of doing this, which I don't think is really recognized or
is said for what it is, when you read this information, you're not
allowed to speak to anyone about it, they make you sign.  So it's not
like you go and do a course and then you go to your peers and say, "Hey,
look, you know. I just did this." That was expressly forbidden. So you
kind of keep this inside. This was something that was kind of festering.

 Now, the next thing that I did, and that was the next time that I ever
ran into a religious issue in Scientology -- mostly it was, "No, this is
a religion. No, this is not about religion." Then I did that OTIV where
I actually went into such a severe altered state of consciousness to the
point where I thought I was actually gonna die. Just talking about it
now, I get a big headache. These were really obscure concepts and now
that I myself have had a chance to read Aleister Crowley and different
things, I can see that that's where this was coming from. It was very
much demonic in nature. Demonic concepts with using your mind to go and
out and control people, separating universes, all of this kind of crazy
stuff.
L: Black magic?
J: Yeah, kind of magic, doing magic. Then, culminating into, old OTV was
another walk around and tell people to do this, that, and actually
practice things, control over people without them knowing it 'til the
point of when I did the old OTVI (this was before all this NOTs and all
this other crazy stuff), that part of the proof that you had to bring in
in order to say that you finished old OTVI was to leave your body, go to
another country, and have someone mail you a postcard because you were
effectively in their head.  You're doing remote viewing.  This kind of
stuff.  Several people lost their minds, utterly, totally, and
completely on the courses that I was on and they were whisked away, and
I've never seen or heard from them again.
L: Do you remember any of their names?
J: No. There were a couple people.
L: That went psychotic on the levels, on these… OK.
J: By the time I reached that old OTVI, which is not what OTVI is today
in Scientology, I was a basket case. As a coincidence, as an incredible
coincidence, next thing you know, here comes this NOTs now, this NOTs
rundown, NED for OTs, which was positioned like, if you had trouble with
these old levels, then we know exactly why and you just come in here and
you get this NED for OTs.  Well, I myself was extremely unstable after
doing the OTVI.  I mean, I was having a difficult time telling this
reality versus something I'm imagining or whatever.  I mean, I was just
like crossing back and forth.
L: Did you ever get a postcard from a foreign country?
J: No, I never could do that.
L: So you couldn't attest that you'd completed OTVI.
J: Uh-uh. And I told them I didn’t do it.
L: Did you ever hear of anyone who did get a postcard from a foreign
country.
J: The only thing that I saw was people who attested to OTVI, and who,
and how, and all that shit, I don't know.
L: You think they really did get a postcard from a foreign country?
J: You know, I'm not even gonna speculate on that but I will state as
fact is what happened to me, when I was doing old OTIV. Now old OTVI,
you've seen these materials before?
L: Yeah
J: Where you have to lay with your head pointed magnetic north and you
kind of do this chanting and all this other kind of stuff, right? To get
into this altered state. What did happen to me is I did that with the
intention of moving out of my body, which actually happened and I went.
I was upstairs on the fourth floor when I was going up in this ritual,
day after day, to learn to exteriorize, and it actually happened and I
went outside and the fucking building, I was four stories up. I had this
bad fear of heights. I mean, it's less than it is now but shit, I look
down and I'm four stories off the ground. Nothing holding on. Well, I
immediately came back to this level of consciousness with the most
severe headache and I think that, in my opinion, those things that L.
Ron Hubbard has to create that effect is something that's been around
for the millenium.  I mean, every, someone else has discovered it's in
the Vedic Hymns, you know, it's in Buddhism, this whole concept of
exteriorization and all that kind of stuff.  But the way it was done in
Scientology, I have since come to understand, has more to do with magic
than a more scientific thing.
L: OK. Was the belief in Scientology that, when you said, God and Devil
were an implant, does that mean they’re some kind of a aberration?
J: Yeah, religion is screwed up. It's just a false thing to enslave
people.
L: That was the secret knowledge about religion in Scientology, that
religion was a false thing to enslave people?
J: Right.  And I even read, and I’ve listened to those Philadelphia
doctoral course tapes, quite a bit.  And yes, it goes into that, how
horrid religion is. And then what shocked me is when that damn OTVIII
came up. Now people don't realize there are different versions of that
OTVIII. There's one version that one person saw that was just a one-page
thing that kinda gave some prophecies. And what they saw was obviously
incomplete.  But I was there in the Church when they did the whole thing
with the -- what am I saying, church? -- Scientology -- when they did
the whole thing with the compilation of the original OTVIII, how they
screen people so hard, when they got the ship about that other stuff.
And then they issued something on OTVIII, which I never saw myself but I
do know that the first people that did OTVIII, within the first three
and half months, those materials were gotten away and they were changed,
and they were issued again because there was a big problem with what
people were reading.
 Now, I had a personal conversation with David Miscavige about this. He
didn't want to tell me specifically what was in the pipe but he told me
there was some information in there that was very startling and very
rude that may very well upset people considerably. This was before
OTVIII was… that first thing. So he told me there was something very bad
in there that he was trying to grapple with. He had uncertainty and was
like, "God, I don't even know if I want to say this." OK, and then it
came out that some people were horribly upset. I mean, horribly upset.
L: Do you know any of the first OTVIII people that did the original
OTVIII before they changed it?
J: Not really.  I just remember, a man, a European man that was a
complete basket case from the ship and I know that a lot of the people,
not a lot of the people but it had had many complaints about that and
then when they changed it, it smoothed out.
 Now, I'm gonna give my theory about that. The very first issue that
came out was one of these representations that I have since seen out of
the Church, where L. Ron Hubbard goes into this whole thing about how he
is Satan, how he had a part in all of this, in the Book of Revelations.
Then there’s other ones that don't say that he is Satan but say
something else, but what is common amongst all the OTVIII documents that
I have seen is the slander of Jesus Christ, being a pedophile, a lover
of little boys, and a slander on religion. So even if you minus the
controversy about whether or not L. Ron Hubbard said he was Satan,
there's other threads that run through all the documents that are common
that makes it obvious who he thinks he is and what he thinks about Jesus
Christ. And on one hand denies it ever happened and then on the other
hand, said he's a pedophile.
L: Does Hubbard ever call religion an aberration?  Does he ever come out
and say that this is something that needs to be audited out of people?
J: Yeah.  Yeah.  In the Philadelphia doctoral course tapes.
L: He talks about auditing out?
J: Yeah.
L: You remember seeing that when you were at Scientology?
J: Hearing it. And seeing it.
L: Did the top executives in Scientology believe in God?
J: No. Well, you know, again, the ones…
L: Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey and David Miscavige.
J: Again, back to a conversation with David Miscavige when I first came
to the base, to the Hemet location in 1982. I don't recall exactly what
we were doing or what the circumstances is, but he came to me and he
said, "Hey, look, you know there's no such thing as God, don't you?  You
know that LRH said there ain't no God. It's just all a damn implant.
There is no God. We don't believe in God here." This is something he
personally said to me in private, we were doing something. Now, the flip
side of that -- I've had another personal experience where they were
waiting for a decision, some kind of a court- it was a Portland court
decision. I was there, I was there, Lyman was there, Norman was there,
Ray Mithoff was there, Marty was there. We were standing waiting on the
decision, and I recall David Miscavige saying, "You know, there ain't no
God, but in case there is a God, I pray that we get a good decision
there." You see, he has had in that same doubt what I've seen him
express at that time was the same manifestation that I sought with him
when they were putting out their first issue of the OTVIII stuff. I
think he personally has issues with that himself, but I think he's
definitely way to the dark side, but in his heart he has issues with it.

L: So, he himself, the head of Scientology, was visibly upset by the
content of the original OTVIII?
J: Yeah, he was shaking his head like, "Man, I don't even know if we can
put this stuff out."
L: Let me just bring something up here.  So, there were two OTVIIIs.
The first one was released to a group of people over three and half
months, and people were freaking out and reacting very, very badly to
it.
J: Right.
L: Then another version came out.
J: Without fanfare.
L: They didn't announce a change.
J: No!
L: People didn't know that they'd gone from one OTVIII to another.
J: Right.  It was just like revised, you know.  Just some corrections
and I believe that that part was then stripped out.  Because it became
more palatable.
L: Kind of secretly revised and then the new version came out.
J: Right. Right.  Without fanfare.
L: Nobody knew, except maybe the CS, Miscavige-
J: And the people that were directly involved on the ship and maybe
someone who had done it earlier.  You know, they got that patched up,
but it was done in such a way, it was like, "Damn it.  We knew it before
we released it and now it's happened. Let’s clean it up."
L: And Bob Mithoff was the one who wrote this…
J: Ray Mithoff.
L: Ray Mithoff, from L. Ron Hubbard's notes, allegedly.
J: Pat Broeker was involved in it, too.
L:  Pat Broeker was involved.
J: David Miscavige was involved.
L: Involved in it, so --
J: Those were the three people that were involved, and maybe Jeff
Walker.
L: Is there anyone that you could think of, other than Broeker and
Miscavige and Jeff Walker, who would be able to look… There's a
document, the original OTVIII, that’s been circulated, that talks about
Hubbard saying he's the Antichrist, that Lucifer's really misunderstood,
that document. Is there anybody other than those people who could verify
that possibly that document is what everyone claims the original OTVIII
before it was altered, which Scientology wildly denies, that the OTVIII
is anything like that? Well, maybe they're denying it because they
changed the document.
J: Right.
L: There, there are people who have left Scientology who had access to
it, and they won't surface and name themselves.  They're terrified.
J: Yeah.  It’s a terrifying thing.  When you gave me this, I felt sick.
L: And they stated that this was the original OTVIII.
J: The one with the Antichrist stuff in it?
L: Yeah.
J: Well, then that goes along with what I told you.
L: But that's what they said, that they will not surface out of fear and
publicly name themselves as being aware that this was the document that
they were there…
J: I've seen a man that said he wanted nothing else to do with
Scientology, a European man.  He said, "Fuck Scientology."  He was like
upset.
L: You mean, a guy who had gone all the way up to OTVIII and saw the
document and decided that--
J: Freaked out.
L --freaked out and  decided to leave Scientology.
L: That document does have the content that would do that to someone.
J: It has severe impact.
L: If you think of anyone who can verify that document, who could've or
would've seen the original document before they changed OTVIII.  Most
people theorized they changed OTVIII.  You're the first person that has
ever verified it, that there were two OTVIIIs.
J: I'm not even verifying it because I said I can't give you this or
that.  I just tell you what I saw, what I've seen. I've lived the
history when this was happening.
L: OK.
J: But because I wasn't finished with OTVII, I wasn't privy. Of course,
David Miscavige wasn't either, but that's neither here nor there. He's
the issue authority over anything in the church. Because I talked to him
about this. We discussed this. I said, "Well, I want to see it." He
said, "No, you can't see it. And I have to see it because I'm issue
authority. I don't want to see it either." That's how we engaged in the
conversations, like, "Man. What's in here is gonna blow people's minds."
He was like, "It blew my mind." It wasn't like a happy thing. It was
like, "Man!  We've never had anything like this before."
L: He had an intense reaction to it.
J: Very intense reaction. He didn't even want nothing to damn do with
OTVIII was the feeling I got from him. It's like, "This is a mistake" or
"This is beyond anything even I would have thought of, to now put this
on the public." This is what I'm now feeling from him.
L: Did he say anything to that nature?
J: He just said, "I don't know what's gonna happen when we put this
out." He was hesitant.
L: Right.
J: He did not want to do it.
L: Scientology says it's compatible with Christianity. Every time people
bring up Hubbard's background in the Satanic OTO before the founding of
Scientology and some of the materials in Scientology that are
anti-Christian, anti-religion, the secret materials Miscavige and his
mouthpieces get up and say, "Scientology is a interdenominational
religion. We have Christians, practicing Christians in Scientology."
J: Noooo.
L: "We are completely –"
J: No. You are looked down upon if you try to practice religion. You are
sent to Qual.  You are sent to ethics. You do not practice other
religions in Scientology.
L: So if you were a practicing Jew, you'd be punished.
J: Yes. You could never go to a Bar Mitzvah. You could never participate
in any -- No.  You would definitely be punished. Absolutely.
L: And if you professed, went around the Org talking about God and how
God had helped you?
J: You would be out of there.
L: They would move you out.
J: Oh yes, as a looney tune. As a crazy person.
L: They would think someone was crazy who believed in God?
J: Yeah, and went around talking about God and the church. Because a
person used to do it, Amanda Ambrose. I don't know if you remember her.
L: I remember Amanda.
J: Oh yeah, she got put way on the back burner. She one time got on a
God trip. Oh no, oh no. You're no longer a mouthpiece of Scientology.
You're no longer a spokesman. You go over here and do this little
project. We just don't even want to hear from you. You know, don't let
her talk at events. None of this kind of stuff.
L: Because she talked about God.
J: Right. And then there was another Jewish woman in there that was a
dancer and singer.  What was her name? Started with a "t".  She was a…
What was her name?
L: Tina?
J: No, it was a…
L: Tshura… She was Jewish.
J: Right.
L: Tsura? I remember "t", a Jewish lady.
J: Yeah.
L: From Israel.
J: Right!
L: Tsura, something or other.
J: Same deal. Got rid of her. She was coming in with religion and God
and all this kind of stuff, and she performed a couple of times and
that's it.
L: Gone.
J: Gone.
L: So, then all this stuff about compatibility with world religions is
just an out and out lie?
J: Out and out lie. Scientology is about domination, not about religion.
It’s about domination.
L: OK. Is there anything else relevant to this area of Scientology
claiming to be a religion, or its religious practices, or this OTVIII
level, or secret materials that deny God and basically religion an
aberration that needs to be removed from people?
J: It starts at the beginning. It starts at the very beginning. I mean,
think about those people that first got into Scientology. I mean, I
think about this video where Hana Eltringham is doing secret rites in
black robes with candles and stuff, that they had on the BBC, where it
came from Aleister Crowley, I believe she even says it right there. And
if you read the early paths, the way L. Ron Hubbard was going, he was so
anti-religious. I read those early paths because I was doing some early
Dianetics course and just researching. I started the briefing course,
where you have read everything and it's a common thread throughout the
Scientology literature to attack Judaism, to attack Christianity.
Christianity the most because they're like, they consider them to be
some of the most lost people, just in an implant, being controlled, out
of their control.
L: The concept of being compassionate-- Many Christians try to be
merciful and compassionate. Did you ever see anything in Scientology
material that would mock or scorn Christians who were trying to be
compassionate or merciful?
J: Yeah, there's something in the Philadelphia doctoral course about how
people are like sheep, and they try to help each other but that's kind
of like crap because every person is responsible for what happens to
them. They're creating their own universe so to have empathy or anything
like that to go into agreement, you're actually pulling yourself down so
you actually ostracize yourselves from people that are having problems
and stuff because they're pulling it in or they're mocking it up kind of
thing.
L: They're doing it to themselves.
J: They're doing it to themselves.
L: So if a person has a problem, you shouldn't be compassionate or
merciful because they did it to themselves.
J: Right.
L: They deserve it
J: Right.
L: in a sense?  Whatever happens to them.
J: A good line by Mr. Miscavige: "They're just stewing in their own
juices."
L: OK. Let's change the whole subject. Let's talk a little bit about
copyrights, OK? There's a case going on with--  Scientology-raided
people all over the world that is claiming copyright fraud, and FACTNet
is one of the organizations and people they raided.  And they claim that
FACTNet violated 1900 copyrights. Now, are you a legal expert on
copyright law?
J: No.
L: OK.  So you don't claim to be, you don't know all the innuendoes and
subtleties and all the aspects of copyright law.
J: Correct.
L: Would it be safe to say that you understand Scientology materials?
J: Very much so.
L: Why would you be qualified to know Scientology materials? What
experience in Scientology makes you very aware of what's in these
materials?
J: Well, I will just tell you a horrible accolade that I got in the
Church. In 1982, L. Ron Hubbard did a survey to find the person, the
best cramming supervisor that they had in Scientology in or out of Sea
Org who understood what they read the best and could try to do it the
best.
L: You mean, what was in these materials.
J: What was in the materials. I was that person.
L: Out of all the people in Scientology, you were designated the top
expert on what was actually in the materials.
J: Right. Correct.
L: OK.
J: Or teaching people to understand what was in them.
L: Or teaching people to understand.
J: Which would have had some meaning that I had an understanding.
L: So you've seen various materials, lots of Scientology materials.
You've seen different versions of Scientology materials. You could
generally tell a real one from a false one?
J: Right.
L: When you looked at the OTVIII document that is being circulated
outside of Scientology as the original real OTVIII, the one people
suspect they probably changed, did that look a real Scientology
document?
J: No, because it had way too typos in it and grammar problems and stuff
like that. It looked like something that someone was saying from their
memory.
L: OK.  So it didn't have the same form and everything else as the
original.
J: You know, it kinda did, but you could tell obviously it's not an
original because they very seldom, I mean, they had proofreaders and
correct and check all that stuff.
L: There were too many typos.
J: Way too many. There were about 56.
L: OK.
J: But the information contained therein, let us not invalidate that. I
think it was probably more than one person that got together, unless
somebody was sneaking away with notes, because I know the security of
that ship and I know how difficult it is, or was, to get anything
whatsoever out of there. They went through your briefcases, everything,
so there was no way to take a camera in there ot to steal something. So
I know that that information is just based on memory.
L: Memory.
J: Yeah.  But that’s not to be invalidated.
L: So in other words, that document could have been constructed by one
or more people from notes and memory as best they could or what they
read.
J: Exactly, right. Exactly. And that's exactly what it appears to be.
L: OK.  You have looked at enough copyright documents in Scientology to
know if it's a real Scientology piece or not, generally?
J: Generally, yes.  I wouldn't say absolutely but generally, yes.
L: When you headed up the Issue Authority, tell us what you did in
relationship to Scientology documents. What were your responsibilities
heading up Issue Authority?
J: Um.
L: And you were the top guy in the world--
J: Right
L: --for the issuance of Scientology policies
J: As well as David Miscavige. Now, I was number 2.
L: Number 2. Right under him.
J: Right.
L: You were second guy, second last guy to sign off and say, "This is OK
to issue."
J: Right. And a lot of times they would just go out anyway. But I do
want to make one thing clear. There were certain issues that did not go
through me like that.
L: What kind of issues did not go through you?
J: Technical ones. Technical bulletins, like stuff that would be
compiled by RTRC.
L: So mostly policy letters went through your side of Issue Authority.
J: Yeah, policy letters, that’s right.
L: No technical stuff.
J: Yeah, there was actually some technical stuff.  I have to say there
was, but the person who was really the issue authority on technical
stuff was either Jeff Walker or Ray Mithoff.
L: OK.
J: I would occasionally look at these things.
L: OK. When Scientology created a new document to copyright, do you have
knowledge? Just describe all your duties. As Issue Authority, what did
you do? What did you have to do before David Miscavige signed off on
this?
J: Just read it and sign it off myself. I had people under me that did
all of the other stuff, make sure the tabs are right, and then actually
would say-- And it would be routed to me. Sometimes, I didn’t see
everything that went through me because I had a person that was under me
that did that. And if he didn’t do his job, then it became my job to do
and that happened a time or two.
L: But you were the responsible person?
J: Exactly.
L: OK. When they would review these for Issue Authority, what would they
look at?
J: Take the original. Well, there would either be multiple policy
letters that had dis-related or somewhat related issues concerning the
issue that was being created, and maybe some advice throughout the
years. And they would make a compilation issue based on all these
things, and they would put together something that had a specific theme
and an idea, but it would come from many different sources.
L: OK, this compilation issue, whose name would they put on it?
J: L. Ron Hubbard's.
L: And this is when he was still alive.
J: Yes.
L: How much of a document that had his, did it say that certain parts
weren’t written by L. Ron Hubbard?
J: It didn't say anything.  It just looked like any other issue.
L: So it would appear to a Scientologist that the whole document was
written by L. Ron Hubbard.
J: Right.
L: When, in fact, L. Ron Hubbard could have written as little as a few
lines of a several page document?
J: Or nothing at all.
L: You mean there could have been documents with L. Ron Hubbard's name
on that he didn't write any part of?
J: Right. They were just a compilation of maybe different things that he
had said, or some advices, or some other policy letter that had maybe a
line or two that was significant to the issue, to the subject of the
issue. So you’d get tabs, A, B, C and this advice. It was kind of like,
make a coherent issue, a point out of all of these things that he may
have mentioned at several times but let's make an issue out of it, make
it policy, or let's make it tech.
L: So, he may have written some of those other pieces that they were
putting together, but the average Scientologist who would get one of
these with L. Ron Hubbard's name on it, would it be reasonable to say
that he would believe that way he saw it was the way L. Ron Hubbard
wrote it?
J: Right.
L: Because they don't disclose that this is actually coming from places.

J: All over the place, yes.
L: Have you ever seen anything that no part of what L. Ron Hubbard wrote
was in the document and yet they put his name on it? That somebody else
wrote completely and that they added his name to?
J: That's like asking me a black and white question and it's just not a
black and white issue. Some things would have some parts. I've never
seen nothing that just had absolutely nothing that he had ever written,
but I've definitely seen things that have come out that he had never
seen. Never knew existed.
L: Created inside the organization and they put his name on it
J: Yeah. And they spit it out. Right.
L: And they copyrighted it under his name when he didn't, in fact,
create that.
J: Right.
L: OK.  And let no one know that this was, in fact, a compilation. In
some of these compilations, would two or three paragraphs possibly be
written by L. Ron Hubbard and then several paragraphs written by someone
else?
J: Correct.
L: Was that person's name disclosed, who was writing that?
J: The only way it's disclosed is, you will have "L. Ron Hubbard" then
you'll have the initials of someone.
L: Was that the typist?
J: No. That was the person that actually compiled and wrote the damn
issue.
L: Right.
J: And then behind that name is the typist.
L: OK.  So these other people were actual authors.
J: Yeah.
L: When you were in Scientology, in one case you mention you had to
examine David Mayo's stolen copy of the NOTs materials. And was that the
Earle Cooley who was either a trustee or a member of the board of Boston
University?  He’s a high member of Boston University?
J: Is that the attorney?
L: Earle Cooley out of Boston.
J: Yes.
L: OK.  That, that's the same one.
J: Right.
L: OK.  So when you looked at, they had you looking at David Mayo's copy
of NOTs and Scientology's copy of the NOTs materials to examine them if
to see if they were the same documents and they violated copyrights?
J: Right.
L: Why did they select you to look at, in this major copyright case or
that had a copyright aspect, why did they trust you on this? Was this an
important case, David Mayo's?
J: It was a RICO case.
L: Right. Was this important to Scientology?
J: Very much so.
L: So here’s a major piece of litigation and Scientology selected you as
the expert to examine the documents to see if they were violating
copyrights, they were substantially the same documents?
J: Right, and I did that examination in front of a judge, Judge Marianna
Fouser, made notes. She looked at it and agreed with it, that what I had
done was correct.
L: So you had made a copyright determination for the Church of
Scientology as their expert?
J: Right
L: In the RICO case
J: Right
L: They had made you an expert on copyrights.
J: It's because of me they even won that case.
L: And would you explain that?
J: Because my testimony was extremely compelling. I had one here, I had
one here. I had made exact notes. And I pulled those out of my pocket
and that's why we ended up having to go back to the judge's chambers,
where they wanted to see.  It never even came up as an issue where we
got those materials from. As a matter of fact, they just willingly
admitted, "Yes, this is that stuff," without questioning, "How did you
get it?" or anything, you know?
L: When you were on the stand, did you ever say in your testimony, this
would be part of a court record, that they have violated our copyright,
these documents?
J: Yeah.  There is this one, there is this one.
L: OK.  Trade secrets?  Trade secrets and copyrights.
J: It was a trademark copyright in our case.
L: And you said that this violates both our trade secrets and violates
our copyrights?
J: Right.  To the best of my knowledge, that's what I would call it.
L: So Scientology was using you as an expert.
J: Correct
L: To determine if the trademarks and copyrights were violated, and you
testified?
J: As the senior tech expert person.
L: Right, because they've made great efforts to say that you don't have
any expertise related to copyrights, related to Scientology materials,
and yet they used you as an expert.
J: Sure, so we could just roll right back down to that RICO case.
L: And get the testimony
J: And get the testimony, and get the proceedings and get exactly what
happened.
L: OK.  When somebody issues a -- Have you ever seen Scientology take an
old policy, or had knowledge of this, where they would take an old
policy that went out of copyright and was in the public domain and add a
few new things and re-issue that policy as a revised policy and then
copyright the revised edition?
J: Sure. That's common practice.
L: That's common practice. Were you aware that if you re-issue an old
policy, an old document and make changes to it, and then you copyright
it, the only thing that's copyrighted on that document is the changes
that you made? If you put revised by the Board of Directors for L. Ron
Hubbard, that paragraph is copyrighted, but anything else that was
previously in the public domain, is not copyrighted.
J: No, I did not know that.
L: You can only copyright those, if you changed one sentence and said,
"See sentence two," and you put that in parentheses or "See the HCOB . .
." and you added that, that would be copyrighted. Nothing else on the
page.
J: No, I had no idea. I am not a copyright expert or copyright law
expert.
L: Did you, did anyone inside of Scientology ever discuss the documents,
many of L. Ron Hubbard's, or some of L. Ron Hubbard's documents were
probably copyrighted incorrectly or in the public domain?
J: Yes, and I’ve given testimony about that in the declaration affidavit
that I gave and in this extensive deposition. Sure.
L: You were at a meeting.
J: With Dave Miscavige. I’ll just go through it again. Where, prior to
bringing up, bringing up this RICO lawsuit which we discussed, we were
thinking of what type of action could we bring. And at that point, it
was noted that the copyrights themselves (Yawns). Excuse me. As far as
having a record of it and maintaining them and doing that, that was
something that the old GO had the responsibility of doing and they never
did do it, never did do it to Dave's knowledge or satisfaction to where
it would be legal or valid. And then also, as a result of the 1977
raids, a lot of those per David Miscavige were just missing and didn't
know where they were anyway. Then he kind of registered, you know early
registration, and you know, in looking at this case, the specific one
we’re talking about here, the majority of the copyrights are copyrighted
1980 to 1983 through 1987.  However, these issues, we're talking about
issues within ‘58, ‘67, 1970, so… What? What? What? How can that be? How
could they, how could we be copyrighting something in 1983 that's been
out 20 years, that had no previous copyright, notice of registration, or
anything like that? And on a lot of them, it's like that. You can't file
anything from the 1950s, the 1960s, the 1970s that says this work was
ever copyrighted. Except in the compilation which happened in 1970, but
what about ‘53, ‘50, that’s a 20 year period.
L: Right. During those 20 years, how much of that was in public domain?
J: Every aspect of it. Every part of it was in public domain.
L: Did you ever hear them say that they feared that this was in public
domain?
J: Oh, yeah. They said, "Please let's not do anything with the
copyrights, and then Dave Miscavige and that’s when this project got
going with Pat Brice, to actually collect. And in some instances they do
have things that were copyrighted. They have 1955. But it’s still, I
don't know what the year periods is, but a lot of them are three or four
years later.  And some…  I mean, you can just go through that evidence.
L: Was this a huge project in 1982 and 1983?
J: Yeah. Up through ’87, yeah.
L: How many staff members do you think were involved full-time?
J: I know of one, but I know they probably engaged many others for
several hours.
L: Do you have any estimate on how many documents, how many things they
probably copyrighted in those years?
J: All 1900.
L: 1900.
J: Every one of those exhibits, you will see they have a current between
those years.
L: Between ‘82 and ‘87.
J: ‘87.
L: Nothing is copyrighted earlier. It's all in the project that David
Miscavige started.
J: Yes. Now, some things do have earlier registrations, which they did
find. But  you will find the vast majority of them do not.
L: So then, it's your understanding, or you believe that Miscavige knew
that some of this stuff had fallen out of copyright?
J: He knew the great majority of it had, and argued with Pat Brice
incessantly about it because she came to him and said, "Look. There's
nothing we can do about this." And he told her, "Do what you have to do
to get it done. I don't care what you have to do." Don’t bring me the
problem. You know they replied to that.
L: So he told her do what she had to do, and she told him that these
were out of copyright and nothing could be done.
J: Right.
L: You remember that conversation.
J: Yes.
L: You were there.
J: Yes. Indefensible, she says, "A lot of this stuff we can't do nothing
with." " Maybe we shouldn’t even bring it up" was her theory. "Just
leave it alone, because if you bring it up then it's gonna be obvious
that there's no copyright protection on this stuff."
L: So in that situation, they knew that most of the stuff or a large
portion of the stuff was not copyrightable. David Miscavige told her,
"Do what you have to do."
J: And screamed at her, put the fear of God in her, made her do it,
called her CI [?], "What the hell you wanna do, see the church lose its
stuff? What do you mean? There's a way, there's always a way to do
something. Find it and do it."
L: Find and do it. So then she proceeded to file potentially thousands
of false copyright applications?
J: Right. And then she was gone after that. Shortly thereafter she left
the church.
L: She left the church.
J: Yeah.
L: Do you know where she might be located?
J: Somewhere on the West Coast. Portland/Seattle area, I’m thinking, San
Francisco. The last I heard, she had gone and was irretrievable. She had
gotten away. Because David Miscavige talked to me about this and she
was, I think she was either paid money or something, but she was like,
"Leave me the hell alone. I'm not coming back." But then they were still
going to see her.
L: Who was going to see her?
J: Marty went to see her, maybe Terry Gaboa went to see her, you know,
people from ASI trying to get her to come back. Now, that'd be good, if
I could call Terri and ask her where I could find Pat Brice. Break time.
Pee time.
[Break]
L: OK.  We're talking about Pat Brice, and would you said is that-- How
important was Pat? Pat Brice left Scientology.
J: She was L. Ron Hubbard’s personal secretary in the Author Services.
L: And she was the one who personally filed all these copyrights that
were in public domain and basically made it to appear that they were
good copyrights, and refiled it, and followed David Miscavige's orders
to do what she had to do?
J: Right.
L: To cover Scientology's copyrights.
J: Right.
L: Were there any attorneys assisting her with that at the time?
J: I believe Tom Small.
L: Tom Small was assisting her filing all these copyrights.  Is there
anything that would make you believe that Mr. Small knew that these were
not valid copyrights that were being filed?
J: Yes.
L: What did he say or do?
J: I couldn't… That's something I believe. I didn't see or hear nothing.

L: Just your belief but you have no concrete evidence. He was involved
in the filing of these, though?
J: He talked to her because we had a good trademark firm. And those
things are kind of very much similar, if you do one, you do the other,
trademark/copyright. And he seemed to be pretty knowledgeable about
copyright law. And there was another attorney in his office that
actually used to do all the work and was actually kind of gay and
everyone made fun of him, and I do believe he also may have worked with
Pat. And he later dispected [?] and left Tom Small's office.
L: OK. When Pat Brice left, was this a problem?
J: A major, major problem for Author Services.
L: You've seen a lot of problems as second in command at Scientology. On
a scale of one to ten, how back a problem was this when Pat Brice left?
J: It was a 12.
L: Why do you think it was a 12?
J: Simply because she was upset specifically with Norman and David
Miscavige about their conduct, about their harshness, the screaming, the
lewdness, the drunkenness that was going on every weekend at ASI. I
mean, come Friday, everybody's drunk and--

[END of SIDE A]
[SIDE B]
L: You were talking about?
J: She had been degraded so much herself, and screamed at and abused by
David Miscavige, that I just think she had had enough. Her major
complaint was the way Norman and David Miscavige ran that organization
and how they treated the staff. Even though she was working at the best,
most posh organization within the Scientology structure and getting paid
more than anyone, she still could not tolerate the behavior.
L: OK. You said they were drinking on the weekends and getting drunk.
Were they drinking inside the organization?
J: Yes, that’s part of it.
L: You mean, at a bar or they’d bring in liquor?
J: Food, bunch of food, liquor. Whatever you want.
L: They would party inside the organizations and get drunk?
J: Yes.
L: How often did this occur?
J: I saw it happen week after week after week after week.
L: How many other Sea Org members on Friday have food and alcohol and
get drunk and have a little party?
J: Well, Religious Technology Center started it, CSI started it. I know
I definitely developed a drinking problem as senior executive within the
Religious Technology Center.
L: Do you think these other Scientologists and the Sea Org members who
were working 80, 90, a hundred hours a week and living in deprivation
and making $24 a week, are they aware of these weekend drunk parties at
the headquarters of all of Scientology?
J: I don't think so.
L: And these were regular events.
J: But see, this is something you also have to take into consideration.
That is the L. Ron Hubbard way. If you listen to Welcome to the Sea Org
tapes, your introduction to the Sea Org.  He himself talks about how
much they drink, with the hot buttered rum and people getting drunk and
having a good time. So that's what they do there.
L: Well how come all the staff members don't get to have a party on
Friday and good food and alcohol, and get drunk? How come it's only
these people at --
J: Lest I be the one to defend their practices.
L: That's just the way it is.
J: That's the way it is and there's no way that I can explain it. That’s
just the way it is.
L: When Pat Brice left, you said it was 12 on a scale of 1 to 10.  Were
they worried about this?
J: Well, I'll tell you what happened and that'll answer that question.
Ray Mithoff, the top senior technical person in the whole church flew
out to see her. Marty Rathbun, the top legal person in the whole church,
flew out to see her.  I believe Terry Gamboa also flew off to see her
and talk to her. I think very well Marion Linden [?] also may have flown
off to see her.
L: All at the same time?
J: Oh no, different times. Heidi Stalli [?] probably went there and
audited her.  It's very possible that Mike Eldridge could have been one
of the persons that went out there.  He was like a senior Qual person
inside ASI.
L: So there were six people over a period of how long?
J: Two months.
L: That flew out to wherever she was in an effort to get her back.
J: Right.  Or to just like deal with her so that she was not a threat.
L: What do you mean by deal with her so she was not a threat?
J: So that she wouldn't go public or fall into enemy hands, enemy being
critics of Scientology.
L: And they were worried that she might have information that would
cause a problem for Scientology?
J: Yes.
L: Do you have or did you hear any information that somehow they
silenced her in some way?
J: In some way, they reached an amicable agreement with her. It was
beyond my information as to how it wrapped up.
L: But at some point, David Miscavige said, "We don't have to worry
about her"?
J: We’re not worried about her no more. Just check on her every now and
again.
L: But she's gone.
J: Right.
L: Could that mean that they gave her a reasonable sum of money?
J: In my mind, that's what it means, that she was paid and signed a
bunch of things and is deeply hidden.
L: OK.  Would Sue Brice, uh, Pat Brice be the person who could testify
as to whether or not Scientology falsely copyrighted materials that--
J: Between ‘80 and ‘88.
L: ‘87, that may be in fact the same materials that, would she be the
best person to testify?
J: Yes.
L: That maybe the same materials that Scientology is claiming we
infringed their copyrights on, in fact, OK. So she would be the person
with the knowledge about what went on.
J: The specific detail and intimate knowledge of how the scam was done
or how it was falsely represented to the copyright office, how these
copyrights are still--  However she did it, I don't know. But I know,
I've seen that woman come and say, "Look, we can't even do this, per the
law we can't even do this."
L: She said you couldn't do it per the law.
J: And David Miscavige hit the roof. Yes. I was privy to that. She said,
"We have no grounds, no basis of filing these things." She came in the
-- Did I discuss this with you or was it part of my deposition where I
said she came in? Yeah, it was part of my deposition. She came in with a
handful of files, because there were several meetings in regards to this
copyright issue. And after it was initiated I believe the second time --
and this was all part of that deposition that goes into great detail on
this -- but she came in with many folders, that would be wider in your
hand in this book, of copyright registrations. And she came in and said,
"Well, there's a lot of this stuff we just can't do anything with
because… "  She just said it straight up like that to David Miscavige.
He jumped up and hit the roof.
L: She said it went into the public domain.
J: Right.
L: She used those words.
J: Right. "We have no rights," she said. "We have no rights on these
things." He hit the roof, quickly hustled her out of the room. He said,
"She's off the, she's off the rails." And took her and screamed at her
and said, "What the hell are you talking about?" And then he kind of
calmed down and he said, "Look, we have to do this. Do you understand
what this means? We have to make sure that we file these copyrights. I
don't care what you have to do. Do it."
J: OK.  Scientology went to a judge in many places around the country,
particularly Denver, and said, "We own these copyrights. These are valid
copyrights. We want a secret warrant to go into, to go through the doors
with the marshals and search and seize the property of FACTNet and the
directors, Lawrence Wollersheim and <a href="http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/Bob_Penny.html">Bob Penny</a> . And represented to the
judge, through their attorneys, that these were valid copyrights to
obtain a search warrant. To get a warrant to search and seize a person's
house is one of the most serious and difficult things to do and it has
to be accurate. You don't just break down people's doors in America
based on rumors. It is a, probably a felony against the Federal court
system, a felony against us in raiding our homes based on a false
warrant which they obtained from the court under false pretenses. And
what you're saying to me is that David Miscavige, the head of the Church
of Scientology, who ordered the raid on FACTNet, knew the copyrighted
materials that Scientology filed were most probably false, that they
were, many of these were in the public domain, and still knowing that
they were committing a fraud, he ordered his attorneys in Scientology to
submit this fraudulent information to the judge to search our places --
that he would have known that when he ordered the attorneys to go ahead
and do this. He was well aware of it. Was Warren McShane ever privy to
any of these conversations on the copyright issues? As the current head
of RTC, would he have known?
J: Is he the current head of RTC?
L: I believe so.
J: Over David Miscavige? Not over David Miscavige.
L: Miscavige is off of RTC now.
J: Oh, what is he doing now?
L: I believe he's in some other corporate structure but I believe he's
resigned from RTC.
J: And Warren McShane is in?
L: Yeah.
J: Oh, that's pitiful.
L: Do you recall Warren McShane ever being present when discussions
about copyrights and things being in public domain and not being true?
J: I think Warren McShane would have intimate knowledge about that by
way of the fact that he was one of the major persons within RTC as a
person that was junior to me that would deal with trademark/copyright
registrations and problems. He was also a person that was privy to come
over to ASI and have some of these high clandestine-type meetings. And
he would have also, if Pat Brice would have spoken to anyone at RTC
about it, it would have been Warren McShane.
L: He would the person directly she was working with. He was around
during the Pat Brice times?
J: Yes.
L: So, you can't for sure but because of his position, it was probable
that he was aware that these documents were fraudulently filed?
J: Very much so.
L: And he participated in the fraud on the federal judge, causing
federal marshals to come out and raid out our places?
J: I guess you can make that assumption but there is one thing that I
want to say about Warren McShane while it's on my mind.  It's just
incredulous to me that he is the person that is head of RTC right now,
because he had at least two near psychotic breaks during the time period
that I was there simply because of the stress that he was under. He was
not a real conditioned, hard conditioned Sea Org member. He had been in
public for quite awhile and then he came into the Sea Org and got this,
all these crush, heavy stress kind of treatment simply because he had,
he looked good on paper. But he was certainly one of the most weakest
persons in the organization so I can only even imagine that he must have
had the Mary test of fire, something horrible has happened and now he's
really gone, because he was always one that had doubts and didn't know
whether or not he was doing the right thing, or whether or not he could
do what he was being asked to do, this kind of thing.
L: When you say he had two psychotic breaks --
J: Near psychotic breaks.
L: Near psychotic breaks, do you remember any more detail about that?
J: Yes, once we were in DC. This was shortly after Reagan got shot in
DC. We were in DC. We meaning David Miscavige, Norman, Vicky Aznaran,
Rick Aznaran, Warren McShane, Alan Cartwright. And Joe Yanni too. And
Warren had been doing some work. I don't remember specifically what it
is but I know I ended up having to sit with him while everyone went out
and partied and got drunk because he was my junior, because he was
incapable of functioning at all. I mean, he was just like staring
around, just a bumbling idiot, talking to himself. He was a mess.
L: You'd say a near psychotic state?
J: Yeah, that's what I said exactly.
L: Why were you all in Washington, DC?
J: I'm trying to recall the event.
L: Was it the Org or something like that?
J: No. We were up there on business. Oh! They had opened up a PR office
in DC. Oh, now you got me remembering about politicians and stuff. Yes,
yes, yes. They opened up a PR office in DC to affect, to start rubbing
elbows with politicians, to become involved with the political process,
to get allies. This was some bright idea to have some big PR office. I
think, who was it?  Cathy somebody, somebody was over it, and we were
there, spared no expense with the cost, with the idea of getting
senators and lawmakers and lawyers and judges all cozy, cozy, cozy with
Scientology.
L: Do you have any idea how much they spent, you know, to create this
office? Any estimates?
J: About a half a million dollars.
L: Half a million dollars to set up a public relations office to
influence politicians in Washington.
J: Correct.
L: Do you know what --
J: It was prior to, yeah, this was prior to the IRS agreement because
that was part of the strategy with trying to get tax exempt status, is
to get Scientology into the main legal minds of the people on Capital
Hill making those decisions.
L: Did they ever discuss setting up this office to influence
politicians?
J: That's the exact reason why it was there, to influence people, to win
friends and gain influence.
L: To influence legislation?
J: Particularly concerning Scientology, yes.
L: The Church of Scientology. So they were there setting this up to
influence legislation for the Church of Scientology.
J: Right.
L: A church is not allowed to engage in political lobbying or try to
influence legislation.  Their tax-exempt status would be pulled away
immediately if it's found out that a church is using the power of
religion and the pulpit. There is separation of Church and State in this
country for very good reasons, and if a church is influencing elections,
politicians, or legislation, that's grounds to remove a 501(c)(3).
J: OK. You know that and maybe people you’re talking to, but let me just
say some more about this. I remember having meetings at Author Services
in that boardroom, same boardroom where we with copyrights and all of
that, another clandestine meeting, where it was researched the exact
location. It was even figured out, OK, which legislator goes here, where
the judge hangs out, where these people go, is where we're gonna put
this PR church. And it ended up being in a ritzy area. And it was made
to look ritzy, just like everything else. This was planned and executed
for months. The research, the concept being to influence these
lawmakers, to get in and start rubbing elbows, specifically for the
tax-exempt status, and different legal cases that were going on with the
church at the time.
L: To try to influence the legislator, the judicial department on
legislation that was ongoing against the church.
J: Correct. I don't know how successful it was.
L: You were in the ASI building. Were they doing this for ASI or were
they doing this for the Church of Scientology.
J: For the Church of Scientology.
L: Why do you say that and not, because you were in the ASI building?
J: Because, that's -- ASI is like the corporation that at that time
period ran the entirety of Scientology and the person who was doing that
was David Miscavige.
L: So ASI, in effect, ran Scientology.
J: Yeah, and we've said that a hundred times.
L: OK. It's important for legal reasons. It relates to this particular
thing that your talking about. Going back to your experience and
expertise in Scientology, when they would issue-- You said before that
you're not an expert on publication and issuing, and the legal
definitions for copyrights, but you know when something's issued in
Scientology by Scientology's definition of what it means when it's
issued.
J: Right.
L: And you know when they've published, when they issue something,
that's publication in Scientology.
J: That's the same.
L: Even though, out in the law of the world, when you issue it and when
you publish it might have a legal difference definition, in Scientology,
everybody knows when you issue something, that means it's published, and
it can either have a big list of who it’s issued to or a small list--.
J: Correct.
L: But you are publishing that to selective public groupings.
J: Put it this way. It is published and issued, my understanding of it.
OK, so like this is, so this is a new edition that we gonna put out by
L. Ron Hubbard even though he may have never seen it or whatever.  It
goes through Issue Authority and the moment it's approved, it is then
published as a document, many, many copies made and then it's issued to
whoever it goes to.
L: So you know Scientology's definition?
J: Right, and that's what I’ve just explained.
L: Issued and published, it might not be the same as what the legal
definition of issued and published. Like, for example, a person can
write something, you know, and have it being typed, and have it being
proofread. Somebody might consider that issued but not until the book
publisher put it into a bookstore would it be considered published.
J: Right.
L: That might be another definition used in law or some other
corporation.  But in the corporation of Scientology, when it was issued,
it was published.
J: When it was approved, it was published, then issued.
L: Right. Approved, published, and issued.
J: So, massive copies of it, and then issued. Boom.
L: OK. Do you know of anyplace that Scientology keeps archives of
original policy letters written by L. Ron Hubbard?
J: That I know of is CSC and RTRC.
L: They actually have the originals, handwritten, stored somewhere.
J: Right.
L: Do you think they have the original long form mimeos, like they were
sent out to the Orgs and missions, like some historic copy?
J: Right.
L: Have you ever seen or heard about historic copies?
J: I've seen those things. I've seen old mimeograph things like that.
What happened to them after computerization I do not know.
L: Well--
J: Let me speak. There's maybe another way to look at this, because I
know that during my tenure of computerization at Scientology, another
thing that they would do in order to store information is microfiche,
when microfiche first came out. So a lot of things, the storage was –
and I don’t remember because I was doing a project. Microfiche
everything. And that was kept in several secret locations, information
with Incom.  Like they had certain places where there's just massive
amounts of microfiche information. A lot of it concerns knowledge
reports, this, that, and the other thing. But also as part of
preservation, microfiche was kept on certain projects, so that may be --

L: Do you where those microfiche centers are?
J: They were kept near the major A-frame within Scientology and Incom on
the [?] Street. Some of them. And other ones were taken to secret
locations of which I did not know.
L: OK. Did you hear about the gold CD' s that they made and put into
storage?
J: Yes.
L: What's on those gold CD's that you know of?
J: I have no idea.
L: OK. Your experience in Scientology, did the preserve L. Ron Hubbard's
stuff, materials?
J: Yes they did.
L: Is it likely -- you might not be able to answer yes or no -- but is
it likely that original copies of these policies and original L. Ron
Hubbard notes and original mimeos may be preserved on microfiche, on
gold CD's, or somewhere?
J: Yeah, and in their own original form.
L: The actual paper.
J: The paper itself, because what they got into doing is putting, doing
some process on the paper, the really old ones, to stop the acids and
paper from-- Let me back up. Normal paper has acid in it and it
deteriorates over time. They were working on a project to not only
preserve them by taking pictures, microfiche or whatever, but also to
stop the deterioration of the original document and then place it in
sealed plastic. So, they very well could have copies of all these
original things in sealed form.
L: So they went to great deal of effort to preserve documents of L. Ron
Hubbard.
J: Right.
L:  To start chemically treating them and sticking them in plastic,
that’s pretty significant, along with microfiching.
J: Yeah.
L: So, the court could ask Scientology to produce the original
microfiches and the original documents, if those showed that they were
false, they would be destroyed before they ever got to the court?
J: No, here we go with the corporate veil. Here we go with entities that
I’ve been privy to, the Earle Cooley, the Leske. If ever the court
demanded it from one corporation, it would be found in reality in
another, separate corporation not part of the litigation, so in other
words you could chase that crap around until time immemorial and you
would never find it.
L: So if Judge Kane in Denver ordered the Church of Scientology, RTC, to
produce these original L. Ron Hubbard documents…
J: It would never happen.
L: …they would say they do not have them and they do not exist?
J: Right, and they would say they don’t even know where the hell they
are.
L: And they don’t know where they are, and they would have been
instructed – this is a policy in Scientology – to move any documents
that are requested by the court, if they are not destroyed because you
told me they destroy some of them.
J: Oh, yeah. They never destroy the original, but things that have been
published.
L: Right. So they’ll keep the original, move it to another corporation,
and what they’ll be doing is telling the truth to the judge that they
don’t have it, but lying about they don’t know where it is.
J: Right.
L: And what they do is move it to another corporation so they don’t have
to produce it, and basically lie to the court.
J: Right. So you spend this time running around trying to get the
original. "Oh well, RTC, well CSI has it, well maybe it’s part, well it
was part of old CSC documents, that’s what we know, used to be, OK well,
let’s get a motion." And years later…
L: So bottom line is if these documents show they had done false
copyright filings even though they possess the originals that would
clearly show the fraud…
J: Right.
L: They would not produce them?
J: Never see them.
L: But they wouldn’t destroy them?
J: No, they would have them.
L: They would have them, they would just deny by moving it to a
different corporation.
J: Now, let’s take a break.
[Break in discussion]
L: OK, when we left we were talking about attorneys.
J: Piercing the corporate veil.
L: How they avoid producing documents and how they use the corporate
shell to perpetrate a fraud on the court. Can you talk a little bit
about that?
J: I’ve been privy to several meetings beyond MCCS where after the
formal relationship with MCCS and different critics came up against
Scientology and showed weaknesses in the corporate structure, so many
more corporations were set up. You know there’s even a more secret
corporation now that I’m talking about it than CST. I only heard the
name of a couple times, so in case something happens to CST, materials
will fall there.
L: Will go to that location?
J: Yeah. And that was so secret I only heard it mentioned two times.
L: So there’s some corporation that you’ve never even heard of, that if
something happens to CST…
J: Right. But what I was saying is after the MCSC and different things
occurred, new corporations, new restructuring, and it was all done from
the premise of, what if they came after certain things, like what if the
IRS comes? They’re only going to get a certain bite. Because we’ve moved
corporations, we’ve moved bank accounts, we’ve moved everything. If they
come after documents, if they come after upper level materials, well we
have these corporations set up that will run them around, they’ll never
get it, we’ll never have to produce them, they just won’t find them. And
the whole premise of those corporations was not to be independent
operating corporations, but to be a shell and a buffer against imagined
or real threats.
L: So, for example if a judge ordered documents to be produced by RTC,
the practice would be that either RTC would have anticipated they were
going to have to produce these documents and would have transferred them
to another corporation, or they would transfer them at the time of the
judge’s order to produce documents to one of the other corporate shells,
and then tell the judge that they don’t possess those documents or know
where they are?
J: Right, and in the example you just gave, well RTC doesn’t have it,
then they say CSI has it. Now look at what physically happens. CSI has
to be physically brought into the thing, motions, this, that. In the
meantime, the clock ticks. Now we get up to the point that, CSI you have
to produce this. Well, we don’t have them and never said we did. They’re
someplace else.
L: And move them again to another corporation.
J: Or they may never have had them in the first place, and knew where
they were all along, but instead of doing that, it’s like let’s buy the
clock.
L: Do you know of any specific time that the court ordered documents
where the corporation moved the documents either in anticipation of the
court order or at the court order to another location, and then denied
they had the documents. Do you recall any situation when somebody asked
for something?
J: I don’t have a real concrete specific about that, but the thing that
comes to mind is that probate case, when it had something to do with L.
Ron Hubbard and producing certain records and things to do with L. Ron
Hubbard. There were definitely some shenanigans going on there.
L: Moving them to another corporation so they didn’t have to produce
them for the court?
J: Right. Or setting up a new corporation to take the burden off this
one, so that if anything happens here, well it’s not there, it’s here.
L: Gotcha, it’s a shell game. So you never know where the assets are,
and they’re denying that they’re in the corporation that the court or
whoever is asking for?
J: Right, and they’re doing it in a very intelligent way. They have the
best lawyers that have taught them how to do it the most slickest way
they possibly can.
L: You mentioned while we were walking something about the IRS case.
J: This IRS case, now there was a point in time when the IRS was
auditing one of the corporations. The church was providing information,
this, that, and the other thing. And the idea that blew the IRS off
which made them laugh real hard, is when someone goes to a mission,
receipts. They pulled out receipts and just gave them to him, that was
just overwhelming. I mean after going through, I don’t know, 70,000
receipts – you know meticulously -- they laughed because they stopped
looking at a certain point. But getting to the point…
L: So they overwhelmed the IRS people, the inspectors, by giving them so
many receipts that they became befuddled?
J: Right.
L: And that was done intentionally to just overwhelm them.
J: Yeah. It was like a bear trap. It was like, just let them ask us this
one thing, and we’re going to open this door, and we’re going to give
them so much shit that they’re going to run away. Yeah, they were
bear-trapped into that.
L: And they laughed about…
J: Laughed and laughed and laughed.
L: Who was it that laughed?
J: David Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey, Marty, Vicky
Aznaran. We were just there, you know. But they had a person inside,
they had an inside connection in the IRS. They had an inside connection.
They had some attorney or someone, initials all secret, and they
intentionally never said names. Some attorney hooked them up to someone
he knew, a retired IRS person, who then put them in contact with someone
right in the office in Washington IRS, giving them information on what
to do.
L: To get their status.
J: To get their 501(c)(3).
L: And would this have been secret if this was a normal legal
relationship, would they have kept it secret? Would they have kept this
secret if this was appropriate behavior by the IRS agent.
J: No. Lawrence, I don’t mean to be short but God knows that’s a
rhetorical question. You know exactly why they did it. They did it
because they were running an op. They were under orders to get this
done. And I’m sure that a lot of palms got greased to get this done. And
it would have been done through the attorneys.
L: The attorneys would have been passing the money to the IRS agent?
J: Right.
L: OK. You mentioned MCCS. MCCS was originally a corporate sort-out,
reorganization to hide L. Ron Hubbard’s control.
J: Right.
L: Were there any other projects that were given new names after that,
that essentially did the same thing or were similar to that that you
knew of?
J: Nothing with any formal name, but definitely similar itinerants.
Specifically with their upper level materials shifting all around –
their confidential materials – and then financially things were set up
so that, you know it wouldn’t even be shocking to me if you found some
European corporation actually running the US corporation. It wouldn’t be
a shock to me. Because the major concern was, it’s too hot in the United
States. Let’s get this in a country where the United States does not
have undue influence. And that’s a political thing, that changes all the
time. I’m not saying what it is today. But I know the whole basis and
the reason why that was even gone that way was that so the United States
would not have jurisdiction over the majority of Scientology assets.
L: So you believe there’s some shadow corporation in some foreign
country that really runs all of…
J: And I think that Marine Bergotti was one of the persons that was on
it.
L: So if something happened in the US, the foreign corporation would
take over the assets and say they really owned them.
J: Right. See, Marine Bergotti was in the UK, in England, and she would
come over like twice a month, fly over with financial statements about
foreign interests.
L: Let me see here. I have this section that you can…
J: Take home?
L: Yeah, take home.
[END OF TAPE]