Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince J: Now, I do believe this is the way it worked because I had privy to
see the Author Services bonus system.  Author Services received a
certain commission or a certain percentage of all monies gotten from
organizations for L. Ron Hubbard’s interest.  Out of that, depending on
what position you held within the organization, you were assigned a
percentage of whatever that was. And, so, yes, you got a commission
every week.  Just by being there, even if you were the claimant.
L: How much do you think the top people at ASI might have been making in
commissions?  Or do you know?  Did you ever see or hear talk, them you
know, "I made 500 bucks this week" or --
J: Well, I know Mike Eldridge was in there and I know one week he made
$900.
L: In commissions?
J: Right, just paid, you know, his percentage of the commissions.
L: His percentage of the commission was $900 for that week.  Now, how
many other Sea Org members make that kind of money, out of the 13,000…
J: They were the most affluent Sea Org members in Scientology that I
know of, Author Services staff.
L: Did the other Sea Org's members know they were making this amount of
money?
J: Yes and they were told they were a separate non-religious corporation
and they were told all they were getting paid was minimum wage.
L: So, in other words, they were lied to, saying that the people in ASI
were making minimum wage when, in fact, they were making huge
commissions?
J: Huge commissions.
L: And creaming off the assets of Scientology for…
J: Right. So Fran, in particular, systematically went through to make
sure that everyone kept getting the commissions, and she had the
blessings of David Miscavige and Norman Starkey.
L: Because they were getting…
J: They were getting paid.
L: They were getting lots of money every week.
J: Sure.
L: That nobody else…
J: This is how gold starts stacking up in these little personal treasure
chests, the rare coins.
L: So they're milking the money off the top of the corporation, telling
the other Sea Org members that they're making minimum wage or that…
J: Yeah right.
L: …they're not making this kind of money.
J: And they were told to not be extravagant, not be showy, just take
your money.
L: So, in other words, just spend your money secretly and not let the
others Sea Org members know they're being basically had.
J: Right.
L: I mean, do you think about it now and you feel like you were being
had or were you getting a piece of the pie too at this time?
J: No.
L: How much… So, let me understand this.
J: And they kept this very secret, too.
L: OK. I could understand why they would keep it secret.  13,000 staff
members living in filth, starving, working day and night, and David
Miscavige and these top people creaming money off and spending it
secretly -- I'd get pretty pissed if I found out about it.  I'd feel
like I had been had and I was a fool. OK. They had, ASI had the
authority to order organizations to buy books?
J: Right.
L: And they would go from the ASI corporation to the Church corporation
and have one of their executives tell them to write out a check for
maybe $1000, maybe 5?
J: And then if they didn't comply, they got sent to ethics, they were
subjected to harassment.
L: So if they didn't follow the executive of another separate and
distinct corporation, that supposedly had no authority over this other
corporation…
J: They would get creamed.
L: And this was if they didn't give them the money they wanted and
bought what they told them to buy?
J: Right. But, Fran would often, and not only Fran but Terry Gamboa too,
would run over to BPI and make them go into organizations and demand --
I mean, BPI was just an execution arm for sales for Author Services, in
essence.
L: So, BPI was ordered to do something which it then ordered the other
organizations to do it, and ASI was controlling the cash of the other
separate Scientology corporations by simply ordering them to buy stuff.
J: Right.  Or sending a person from BPI.  But the orders would come from
Author Services to BPI or from Author Services directly to the
organizations however to get that money in there with there bonuses.
L: Was David Miscavige ordering this or Norman Starkey?  Who was
ordering, "Tell them to buy these books and send us a commission
check"?  Who was the first person in the command chain?
J: L. Ron Hubbard.
L: Hubbard.
J: Minimum book stocks.
L: To Miscavige on down the line.
J: Right.  This pumped up ASI considerably.  They became very, a very
luxurious organization to work for.  They had extravagant parties and
had nice little trips and --
L: Tell us about the extravagant parties and the trips that you can
remember.
J: Well, they would rent, uh, just go to a restaurant, you know, the big
Japanese restaurant, I think they've gone to every damn giant, expensive
restaurant there in Los Angeles, you know, just having their little
outings.  They would report these, all of these things were written up
exactly what they would do week after week after week because sometimes
they didn't do good on the week or that they would have other problems,
then all of Author Services were come up to Golden Era Productions, to
have meetings where microphones were suspended from the ceilings, and
these meetings were taped.  And they were run in a very orderly fashion
and these meetings would then go up to L. Ron Hubbard so that they could
see, "Well, what's going on with the organizations, what's going on with
Author Services, what's going on with my money?" So every week in 1982
when I came to the base at Gilman Hot Springs, Author Services staff
would come so sometimes I would have to do actions, you know cramming
and this kind of stuff.  And, you know, they'd have barbecues and they'd
go out and they'd do whatever, water slide places, whatever.
L: Did regular Sea Org members, were they taken out to fancy
restaurants?
J: Never, never, never.
L: Did they have these little trips and outings where everything was
paid for?
J: Never.
L: How many -- so, just a small group of people at ASI and RTC that are
being given these enormous privileges.
J: Well, no.  It was actually ASI that had enormous privileges and then,
over time, it started with RTC and CSI.
L So, the top people, Miscavige was spreading the wealth to keep loyalty
or whatever and the normal Scientologists have no idea.
J: No clue.
L: They just think everybody's working and suffering and there were
actually these top executives were actually told to hide what they're
spending and what they're getting.
J: Yes.  Don't show others. Don't talk to other staff about how much
money you make, you know.  Don't be flashy, buying  a bunch of shit
because if you do, you'll lose your position.
L: So they had to spend their money secretly and discreetly. They would
go on vacations.  They'd take a bunch of their staff members.
J: Always dressed with perfect Gucci clothes, all this kind of crap, you
know. The most expensive.
L: Okay. Let's go on with the next one then.
J: [Reading] "Any coercion for economic convenience or security reasons
to induce already weakened, infirm, or ill persons to buy dangerous
additional auditing?" We did that one.
L: OK.
J: [Reading] "21. Scientology child abuse, child neglect, improper
health care, supervision or education for children?" I think I pretty
much covered that extensively yesterday on the tapes.
L: Okay.
J: [Reading] "22.  Any type of physical or mental abuse of staff members
including such things as the RPF/Rehabilitation Project Force, beatings,
confinement, excessive work detail, denial of adequate food, threat, and
coercion?" Well, yes.  This is like the order of the day.  Um, well RPF,
you were always constantly threatened with the RPF if you really were
non-compliant or really just were not doing what you could do, and we
all know what the RPF is.  But the other tortuous thing that L. Ron
Hubbard came up with just before he finished losing his mind and died
was this running program where a pole, a special pole, was erected in
the middle of the desert in the hot sun and it was painted a certain
color. And you were made to run a certain distance away from it but
around it in a constant circle, in one direction one day, another circle
another day, and you were told to keep you attention on the pole while
you were running.  I've seen people just go into a state of physical
collapse because of this.
L: How long would they make people run?
J: Twelve hours a day.
L: They'd run for 12 solid hours?
J: They'd go around in a circle, yes.
L: And what was the purpose?  Was it, was it people that were doing well
that would run?
J: No, people that were having the most difficult time.
L: This was a punishment.
J: Punishment, extreme punishment.
L: And what was the purpose that they said that running the pole would
do?
J: Bring them into present time.
L: OK. All right.  That's the reason, is because they weren't in present
time and so running for 12 hours -- were these people in condition to
run for 12 hours?
J: No.
L: What happens if they fell down?  They stopped running?
J: There was a helper that came out and just helped them to keep going
around the pole.
L: They literally kept you moving the full 12 hours whether you couldn’t
move --
J: They called the running program, ICE would come out there and keep…
get you going along.
L: If they had to drag you, would they drag you?
J: No, I don't know if they did that.
L: Okay, but they'd keep you moving for the full 12 hours.
J: But I know David Miscavige, when he came to David Mayo, when he put
him on the running program, his punishment was that he had to run until
you could just see his head going around the circle. In other words,
until he'd run a rut into the path.
L: That's what Miscavige said, "I want him to run"
J: Yeah.
L: You heard that said, "Until all you could see was the top of his head
from the dirt"?  Was this done for punishment or was this done to help a
person?
J: Punishment.
L: It was strictly punishment.
J: Under the guise of help, but it was punishment.  I mean, it was
obvious what it was.
L: Did you ever see anyone helped by this thing?
J: No.
L: Did anyone become more in present time?
J: No.
L: Become enlightened or spiritually -- This was a punishment program.
J: You knew you were in big trouble when you were told you had to go on
the running program.
L: Were people exhausted at the end of 12 hours.
J: That's an understatement.
L: Tell me what you saw after 12 hours.
J: People barely able to move.  After a few days of that, just laying
stiff in isolation now 'cause they're sick, you know.  Just stare out in
the desert in that damn sun.
L: You mean, like, it was directly under the sun in the desert?
J: Right.  But then they put a water hose around the track. It was a
little hose so that you could get sprinkled with water so that, like
that to Hell is supposed to do something about just getting straight sun
poisoning.  So, yet you have to just run out in the desert.
L: What happened?  Did any of these people's muscles tighten up after,
you know, were they in pain? Their muscles hurt?
J: Yeah.
L: And even if they hurt, they would get them up the next day?
J: Yeah.
L: And make them run?
J: Right.
L: What would they threaten them with when you're in that much run that
would make someone run?
J: Just, "Come on, get up."  You know, just, it's not even so much a
threat.  It's just a constant, "Come on. You gotta go.  Come on!  Come
on!  Come on!  You have to do it."
L: Okay.
J: Keep going.
L: What else have you seen?  Anything else but that one?
J: Mmm.  No, just that. Beatings I told you about. Confinement I told
you about. Excessive work detail.  I know, just in my own specific case,
when I left in '87 and threatened to sue 'em and do all this other
stuff, and then they got my wife and they brought me back. They made me
pull these big toolies, which are these things that have the cigars on
them, in a dry riverbed, for two weeks for no reason at all.  Me and
Spike Bush, simply because we'd gone against them.  And it wasn't
unusual to have a staff member who was in very bad regard, like you'd
have to go into the galley and scrub grease from… and work all night.
They did this to people, just denigrating…
L: What's the longest you ever heard them work somebody without sleep?
J: Me and other people, 30 hours on, three hours off.
L: And how long would this go on for?
J: This went on for a couple weeks.
L: 30 hours on, three hours off.  Okay.  Let's go onto the next one.
J: Four dollars and thirty cents a week.
L: Big money.
J: Big money. Hard work.  [Reading] "Pregnant female staff members being
ordered to get abortions, or being worked so hard and getting such poor
quality pre-natal care and nutrition during pregnancy that they gave
birth to deformed or low birth weight babies?"  I believe I covered this
with you yesterday.  It's prevalent and just as common as can be.
 [Reading] "Staff members who need health care or operations being sent
to emergency rooms or other government health services being told to say
he or she was indigent and to hide the fact that they were Scientology
staff members?"
L: We covered that.
J: [Reading] "#26.  Any staff member who was physically or mentally
coerced, abused, or punished by David Miscavige, or by his orders, by
staff, by the order of any other Scientology staff member?" We talked
about that already.
L: Right.
J: [Reading] "27.  Any administrative Sea Org or non-Sea Org staff
member who was paid less than minimum wage and the appropriate
overtime?"  Well, that’s everyone.
L: So, other than ASI and Miscavige and the top executives and the top
people at CSI and the top people at RTC, of their claimed 13,000 staff
members, how many of those people do you think are at minimum, below
minimum wage?
J: Every one of them, simply for ASI.
L: How many staff are at ASI?  How many people aren't at minimum wage of
the 13,000 claimed staff members?
J: How many are not at minimum wage?
L: Yeah.
J: 12,080 are not making minimum wage. About 20 people.
L: About 20 people are making big money and everybody else is working to
save the planet at $4 or $18 or $20 a week, living like an animal.
J: Right.
L: Okay.
J: Okay.  [Reading] "30. Any fraud perpetrated on any government agency
by Scientology while you were a member?"  I think I covered that in my
affidavit and my deposition and these tapes.
L: Okay.
J: [Reading] "34. Scientology falsely construing or projecting a
religious image to unfairly obtain tax, legal, and other economic
advantages?" Yeah, I remember, as part of this IRS thing, everyone had
to do the ministers course so that it could be seen as a church, that
they were like ministers.
L: So, these people were ordered and did anyone say that we're doing
this for tax purposes?  Did you ever hear anything?
J: Yeah, at the meetings, yeah, as part of our -- David Miscavige.
L David Miscavige said, "We're now going to make everyone do a ministers
course and become ministers so that we can get IRS–"
J: And I believe that that came from L. Ron Hubbard.
L: Okay.
J: I know David Miscavige was the one pushing it.
L: Did any of the senior executives of Scientology in your presence ever
say to you, you know, that "We're only doing this religion thing for tax
advantages," or "We're only doing it to defend ourselves, or certain
legal advantages"?  Did they ever say to you, you know, that this is,
you know, "We're really a counseling organization.  We're really a --
did they all believe that they were a religion then?
J; No, I don't think - No one believes that but no one would be, would
openly say that. It would be instant RPF. You know, no one would dare do
that.
L: OK. Um, keep going.
J: OK.  [Reading] "35.  Secret and non-secret locations of all records,
copies and records and archives of Scientology, including…" We discussed
that.
L: OK.
J: [Reading] "36.  Scientology records that had been destroyed or by
shreader, chemical, or other processes?" We covered that.
L: OK.
J: [Reading] "45.  Attempting to blackmail, bribe, or intimidate an
attorney or a law firm to impede their ability to prosecute a case
against Scientology?"
L: Have you ever heard of any firm that went against Scientology?
J: Intimidate.  Intimidate.  Um, who was David Mayo's attorney?  What
was his name?
L: Maybe if you started saying what they did to him, you'll remember his
name.
J: Just a PI campaign, you know.  PI's following him around.  ODC, CDC,
overt data collection, you know, just following him around, same thing
that’s happening here.
L: Okay.  Did they do this -- do you, actually, I'll let you get going.
Just go on with the next one.
J: [Reading] "49. Death threats, intimidation, or harassment of family
members, friends, or employees, or anyone testifying or scheduled to
testify against Scientology?" Me, me, me, me.  Two times so far.
L: Did you ever hear, when you were inside of Scientology any comment
that so and so was gonna, you know be threatened or, you know, "We're
gonna make sure he doesn't arrive on the witness stand"?
J: They’ve said that about me.
L: Anyone else? Have you ever heard them talk about buying off a former
staff member to make sure that he stayed silent, making loans to them,
covering off the buy-off like loans to Terry Gamboa, loans to the Las
Vegas group, anthing along that line to buy silence?
J: Not particularly.
L: You never heard of anything like that, OK.  Keep going with your list
then.
J: OK. [Reading] "Harassment of opposing parties by the creation of
frivolous, malicious, or superfluous lawsuits intending only to punish
and silence the opposition?" I know at brief meetings that I've been to
in relationship to the Wollersheim trial, the strategy was to keep the
courts and the litigation going at all costs, to just, no matter what
decision came down, oppose it, find some reason, just keep that going at
all costs.
L: The Wollersheim strategy, take a --
J: Not one thin dime for Wallersheim.
L: OK.  Did they ever talk about any code of operations on any of the
attorneys?
J: Uh, Charles O'Reilly, which we talked about that. Lita Schlosser.
L: They ran covert operations on Lita Schlosser.
J: Yes.
L: Do you know anything they did --
J: Um, friends, peer pressure with her. Talked to her friends, do the
peer pressure thing.
L: In other words, gather covert information, pass it to the friends to
try to pressure her to back off the case.
J: Like, "Hey did you know your friend here," that kind of thing.
L: Do you believe that they ordered Charlie O'Reilly through the PI's to
be beaten up.
J: Yes I do.  I believe they ordered him to be beat up.  I know of a man
in Mexico, and we will find his name, who got the crap beat out of him.
L: Do you know of anyone else that was ever beaten up to send a signal
to anyone opposing Scientology besides the attorney in my case and this
Mexican guy?
J: This was, OK, this is what I will say to give you the general
attitude, lest there'd be a mistake about what's going on here.  We
would talk about, "Wouldn't it be nice if somebody would, like beat this
person up?" or "Wouldn't it be nice if this or that happen. You know
they're gonna motivate, they're doing a bad thing."  And then in a more
secret, with the Invest people, and I know in my own personal
experience, it's just, with this, it was, "Well what can we do and get
away with it?  What can we do and not be found about it?  What can we do
with the least amount of liability?"  That is the way that Scientology
Invest goes.  So if that means hurting someone physically or whatever
you can get away with.
L: So when they decide how they're gonna punish someone, and how far
they're gonna break the law, they're asking themselves…
J: "What can we can get away with?"
L: "How far can we push it and get away with it?"
J: Yeah.
L: When they think they might get caught is when they stop doing, they
pull back in.
J: Well, they compartmentalize whose doing the activity, so if one
person does something  that really fucks up, well, it's all their fault
and no one else knows anything about it.
L: Would they disavow the person?
J: Sure.
L: Say that he's a renegade Scientologist?
J: Right away.
L: Was the whole reformation of Scientology after Mary Sue Hubbard when
they said, you know, "We don't do this stuff anymore," it was just
another…
J: Lie.
L: …cover-up, and would you say that they're the same level of
criminality before the raid by the FBI?
J: I think they're more intelligent about it, more efficient about it.
No, I don't think that it's the same.  Because I don't think they've
been able to get them again like that.
L: But they're still basically involved in as much or less criminal
activity, or the same amount of criminal activity?
J: Well, you know, I wasn't involved with the old GO, but I know the
level of criminality that I saw and was involved in is really becoming
clear to me as we do this and as I go through this, you know, it just
happens every day.
L: Okay.
J: Happens every day.
L: Um, let's keep going with your list.
J: OK. [Reading] "Theft or alteration of documents from opposing law
firms?" This, um, Bob Mithoff would get drafts or notes from meetings
about legal causes of action taken against Religious Technology or CSC
or whoever.  He would get copies of it and bring to RTC where we would
have a good eye to see what they're thinking about, what they're want to
do.
L: Of the attorneys.
J: Yes.
L: Would you say that David Miscavige manages all of Scientology?
J: He does.  And is the managing agent for all of Scientology.  Him and
it was L. Ron Hubbard.  He took L. Ron Hubbard out though.
L: And David Miscavige pierces the corporate structure of any
corporation?  He can go in and order anything basically in any
corporation and it'll happen?
J: Absolutely.
L: Somebody says no to him and they're gone?
J: They're gone.
L: RPF, the concentration camp area of Scientology?
J: Right, right.
L: So people, is it reasonable to say people fear David Miscavige and
his operations?
J: Very much so. Fear and deify him.  Deify him, why I don't know
because he's such a coward.
L: Do you have any knowledge about, in the Wollersheim case, a fake bomb
being placed on the parent's door of Mr. and Mrs. Wollersheim?
J: I remember Marty mentioning something about a bomb in connection with
you.
L: Marty Rathbun.
J: Yes.
L: Can you recall --
J: He was laughing telling a story about a bomb. He was laughing about
the reaction of the people. I mean, he was telling the story as if he
was there, and it wasn’t more elaborated than that, you know, it was
like, "Hey, you know, a bomb," laughing. Think it's a big joke.
L: My father had a heart condition, and we had a fake bomb on the door
and then the bomb squad with this cement truck and all that stuff in
front of our house, because we thought, and they thought, it was a real
bomb, and it scared the hell out of my family.  Do you know anything
about two people coming up to my sister in a store, that she never saw
before, walked straight up to her and said, "Your brother, Lawrence
Wollersheim, will never live to collect."  Did you ever hear anything
about that incident?
J: Mm-uhm [No].
L: Did you ever hear about any leak or orders given to kill Lawrence
Wollersheim that resulted in the FBI winding up in my door, government
agents getting a tip that I was gonna be killed that night?
J: You tell me about these things that happened within a certain time.
Now I do recall something about your sister, and this is what I'll say
about it, besides just hearing the whispers and stuff.  That information
was on a need to know basis and I knew it was going on but the people
that were participating in it were Dave Miscavige, Marty Rathbun and
Gene Ingram.
L: The three of them --
J: In private, no none else.
L: -- were doing, setting up these covert operations on Charlie O'Reilly
and my family, Judge Swearinger.
J: Right.
L: Do you know of any other threats that were made to Judge Swearinger
in my case, anything? Did you ever hear anyone make comments about Judge
Swearinger?
J: I remember, um, David Miscavige saying what a fucking asshole he was
and um, just mentioning the fact that something was or could be done
about him.
L: Could be done about him.
J: Yeah.  And I think it was basically, it's like, dig up the crimes of
a sexual deviant, this kind of thing.
L: Did --
J: Can we take a pause?
L: Yeah.
[Break]
L: OK.  Let's do the next one on your list.
J: Okey Dokey.  Let me just see where I am.
 Uh, Talking about #62 here. [Reading] "Scientology and/or its attorney
using confidential materials, disclosures, or confessions given to
Scientology by members for blackmail to silence or intimidate the
individual?"
L: You already mentioned David Mayo.
J: Right, OK.
L: Anyone else?  Did you ever hear them talk?  Did you ever hear them
say, "Go get his PC folders and get everything out of his folders that
the PI's can use"?
J: Yes.
L: Who said that to who?
J: Marty, I heard Marty Rathbun say it about you, and David Miscavige
was sitting there.  I heard him say it about Armstrong.  Margery
Wakefield.  I heard him say, Marty saying he had some document that she
was already crazy when she came in. Bent Corydon comes up too.
L: So, Scientology on the one hand says that these are confidential
confessions and they will never ever use them.  That's what they tell
the members who are confessing their most deep and intimate secrets,
secrets that could damage their lives if they ever became public or
known or completely humiliate and embarrass them.
J: Right.
L: Scientology says, "We'll never do that."
J: It willfully does it at every occasion.
L: And whenever these situations that you saw with Miscavige in the room
and Rathbun ordering the contents of a person's PC file, incriminating
information being given to a  --
J: The OSA people would go through and all the person’s OW write-ups
would be pulled out of the person's pre-clear folder.
L: His evil intentions?
J: Yeah.
L: His rock slams, his sec checks, his OW processing?
J: Right.
L: You know, L10 which has to do with overts.
J: Whatever. Pull it out.
L: Anything that they could find.
J: Criminal acts they look for. 2D perversions they look for.
L: Sexual perversions.
J: Right, sexual perversions. Did I say "2D"?
L: Yeah.
J: Oh, my God help me get rid of that.
L: They’ll disappear. So, that what then occurs is then they pull these
all out and they give them to a PI?
J: Right.
L: And say, "This is what he does."
L: And go out and find this information.
J: Or just use it to his peers.
L: Pass it to his peers to embarrass, humiliate, and back a person off.
J: Right.
L: So, do you think if John Travolta or Tom Cruise stood up and said
that they made a mistake, Scientology is dangerous and people should
stay away from it…
J: They’d be over.
L: They would pull everything out of their PC folders and they would do
a complete character --
J: Illegalities they know about the person, intimate details that they
know the person fears.  Yes.
L: So the person confesses they cheated on their taxes, it would be in
the PC file.  Or they cheated some employee or they're hiding money or
they've taken drugs.  Anything.
J: Anything.
L: And that you think that Miscavige would turn on Travolta and Cruise.
Would it be difficult for David Miscavige to turn on them if he thought
that they had turned on him?
J: I think if they turned on him…
L: Or turned on Scientology.
J: …it’d be a hard decision to make because they use Travolta so much.
Cruise, I think they're just a little more slick than just publicly
running.  They would do it to his family.  They would start releasing
information to his family or to him.  They would say, you know, "How
would you feel about if people knew this, this and this, this and
this?"  You know, "You're doing this."  There's other ways besides you
telling us that this information is available.  That's another good
trick they use.  You know, "You told us this. Well, hell, that can be
found here." You know, this person suddenly speaks up, you know,
corroborates the events and people so that you make it look like it
didn't come from them. That the source of their --
L: They get the information from the PC file and then go and try to make
it look like it came from somewhere else but they would never have been
able to go anywhere else had it not been for what the person confessed
in their confidential PC file.
J: Right.
L: And Scientology professes that, you know, it protects this and it
sues to keep PC files secret in the courtroom on one hand, and on the
other hand, the minute that you go against them, they'll give your PC
files to a non-Scientologist private investigator to go assassinate your
character and ruin your life.
J: Right.
L: And it's all done secretly.
J: Yes.
L: Okay.
J: As an op.
L: Let me ask this.  Any politicians that got into Scientology or
government people, if they went against Scientology, all their
confessions would be used against them?
J: Not that I know of any.
L: Okay.  Let me ask you about, at one time you were involved in the
computer project in Scientology?
J: Right.
L: Incom.
J: Right.
L: What was your role?
J: Supervisor.  Like, I was supervisor from a managerial position.  I
did daily, weekly reports about it.
L: How high were in the command structure of Scientology's
computerization?
J: I was the top person.
L: You were the top person in the Scientology computer network.
J: Yes, as far as, not in technical, but in administrative, managerial.
L: Did Scientology use this network to pass messages all around the
world from different computer locations.
J: Yes.  OK, I know what slipped my mind and I wanted to say. The
persons -- oh I think I may have said it – the OSA staff members are the
ones that would choose what to take out of a person's pre-clear folder
and something juicy.
L: OSA is the intelligence division.
J: Right.
L: So, let's talk about Incom. Incom -- would they be getting computer
reports from all over the world on the status of different
organizations?
J: Ethics, whatever.
L: Was it all --
J: Usually money.
L: Was it all, just, you could, anybody could read it or was it coded or
was it -- ?
J: It was encoded and encrypted. There was an encoding and encryption
system that, you know, that that functions for the network; if you came
outside the network and tried to get information, you'd run into
encryption problems.
L: OK.  So, it was encrypted so that if someone tried to receive it in
translation across the country, or from Germany to Switzerland, or from
the Iron Curtain to the US, nobody could read it except the Scientology
people who received it at Incom and decoded and gave it to the
management people in the US?
J: Right.
L: What kind of stuff was sent in this computer communication around the
world?
J: Majorly information that would do with finances, current finances.
L: Did they ever send reports on what to do in a certain situation, like
in a sensitive situation if there was a PR flap, you know, somewhere,
they would send instructions encoded how to deal with it?
J: No, I think that was kind of like an underground scramble activity.
If something warranted it, people would be there.
L: Was, was, did Scientology gather intelligence on, in different
countries, on people that they thought either could help them or might
oppose them?
J: Anyone that opposed them, they gathered intelligence about.  Anyone
that was wanting to help them and they were like coming to them, they
would have them gather intelligence about them.
L: If they were real important, they'd gather intelligence on them even
if they were coming favorably to Scientology.
J: Sure.
 L: Because, why would they gather intelligence on some powerful person
that was favorable to Scientology.
J: No, because they were afraid of spies, double agents.
L: So, if a person was famous or powerful, they would generally run an
intelligence investigation on them.  Do you know of any major figures
anywhere in the world that Scientology has run covert -- politicians,
economic --
J: Besides the judges that I mentioned, I don't think so.
L: You don't know of any personally.  But you know it to be a practice
of Scientology that the local intelligence divisions would be, if
someone was hostile and powerful, they could be gathering his sexual
information, his financial information --
J: Where he went to high school at, where he went to college at, who
were his friends.
L: Family information.
J: Where does he bank, what does his credit look like?
L: Would they gather deeper than that?  That sounds really, you know,
just general information.  Would they gather…
J: No, financial statements aren’t general information.
L: They'd get the person's actual bank records.
J: Bank records.  Uh, any possessions, they would find, like what does
he own? If they have a car, they’ll run the plate. You know, where he
got the car.  How many cars?  Whose name is it in?  Is it financed?  Is
it paid for?  This kind of thing.  House. Where's the house?  What bank
is with the house?  Where's the connection, you know?
L: Do you have any knowledge of any Scientologists in the covert
operation being placed in the home of a political leader or powerful
person in some US or any other country to observe or to gather
information or to run ops?  Have you ever heard of any person going
underground in that type of an operation?
J: I can't say I have because I wasn't all that privy on sensitive stuff
like that.
L: OK. Was it, did you ever, as head of Incom, did you ever handle any
intelligence that was scrambled?  You know, covert operation or any
intelligence operations that were scrambled and sent via Incom, you
know, like from the intelligence division in Germany to the intelligence
division in the US?  Did you ever see any intelligence traffic scrambled
at all?
J: No.  It was always just handwritten envelopes with your name on it.
It said "Eyes Only, please destroy when you read." So it was never
anything electronic.
L: They would never put any of the --
J: During in my time.
L: -- corporate operations into electronics.  It was all hand delivered,
hand written and then destroyed.
J: Right.
L: He would handle these courier packs?
J: Well, in RTC it was a person whose name was Jeff Schrieber or Gary
Klinger. For the OSA network, when I was there, it was Ben Shaw who
wrote reports.  It was Lynn Farney that wrote reports.
L: So, they would have couriers taking these intelligence documents
J: to Author Services, to Mark Yeager at CMO Int, to me in RTC in LA.
L: To David Miscavige.
J: To David Miscavige also.
L: And they were hand written.
J: Not hand-written. Typed.
L: Typed.  Now, were they written in such a way that you could read them
in two ways.  There was a code with names for different activities, like
a B&E would be a breaking and enter.  We called up.  We're gonna do a
Benny on this guy, or they were written in a way that you have to
understand the code in the intelligence division so that if one of these
couriers was stopped, then somebody couldn't read these and understand
these.
J: They were written in a way that, unless you're familiar with
Scientology and some of its Invest, I mean, you could read between the
lines, but you know, they were written in such a way as to be as least
incriminating as possible but to give you as much information as
possible.  Quite commonly, what would happen is from reading a report,
if it was too scant or I didn't know about it or want to know more, I
would just simply give it to the case officer and get the case file and
could see the details.
L: And they'd tell you what was going on.
J: Right.
L: And was it, was there a lot of intelligence traffic going on around
the world, data going back and forth.
J: I had it coming from Germany.  I had it coming from England.  I had
it coming from Switzerland.
L: How often would these couriers bring in these packs?
J: It was never, you know, see a different courier.  It would be the
same people.
L: Same because they had to be totally trusted to carry this
information.
J: Right. Would be the same people.
L: Would they go to Europe once a week?  Once every two weeks?
J: No, I don’t believe that’s how it worked at all. The information, I'm
not sure how the information came from other countries to my desk but I
know I was receiving Canada, you know.
L: So, somehow it would get from these other countries to your desk and
they wouldn't put it into computers, even encrypted.   It was always
typed up and then shredded and gone.
J: Right.
L: Okay.  What's next on your list?
J: [Reading] "Scientology and/or its attorneys knowingly and
deliberately using electronic eavesdropping or bugging against its
adversaries." I think I mentioned a couple instances of this that I knew
about earlier where, in the Bill & Holly Finnell, and also with David
Mayo.
L: Bill & Holly Finnell  were the Scientology ministers who David
Miscavige ordered to have their bedroom bugged, their home bugged.
J: The were moved. A piece of furniture, a lamp that had a bugging
device in it that was put in their room.
L: Why were they told they were moved?
J: Uh, because they were bad people.
L: They were getting lesser quarters as a punishment
J: Right.
L:  And they were really being moved into a bugged apartment.
J: Right.
L: And it was you and someone else…
J: Rick Aznaran.
L: …Rick Aznaran who were listening to them, spying on them illegally.
J: Right
L: And you would listen to your fellow ministers having sex because
David Miscavige was afraid…
J: That they were plants.
L: …that they were from another organization spying on Scientology.
J: Right.
L: Do you know if Scientology has ever found any real spies, a real spy
that they knew for a fact was a member of the government, in
Scientology?  Have you ever --
J: No.
L: How many people have they sacrificed to their witch-hunts, do you
estimate?
J: Countless.
L Name some people you know that have been bounced out as spies of
Scientology, spies of, you know, spying on Scientology.  They mostly
worry about the government, right?
J: Yeah.
L: Who else, would --
J: I mean, that's where this whole rollback thing came from.  I mean,
they used to weekly, oh, it was such an insanity because, like,
"Blah-dee-blah said, ‘L. Ron Hubbard’s ugly.’" "Well, where did you get
that from?" "Well, I was in meeting and somebody said that he had a bad
picture."  You know, just this insane trail of dis-related things,
trying to make it be related, and the person who comes down, you know,
then the person who said it just gets fucking exploded.
L: What do you mean by "exploded", means --
J: Sec-checked, you know, work detail until they crack.
L: Did anyone ever admit, that you know of, of being a government spy in
the history of all this punishment, and all these procedures to find
government spies.
J: You know, no.
L: No one in the whole history of Scientology you have ever heard of?
J: No, none.
L: Do you think that the executives would have said, "We found so and so
and we knew he was a government agent." Do you think that would have
been, they would have bragged?
J: Oh, bragged on.
L: But in all of your years, you never heard one single person?
J: Something wrong with that e-meter.  (Laughter.)
L: OK. Go on with the next one.
J: OK. [Reading] "OK, Scientology and/or its attorneys knowingly and
deliberately recruiting, using, or doing anything, or reporting anything
to get the fee, private investigators?" Again, and this is what I think,
um, it’s Gene Ingram.
L: How many people does Gene Ingram has working for him?
J: I, I don't know.  Like I say, that is something that is so private,
just between Marty and David Miscavige and maybe Lyman and maybe Norman,
but just like, more, less people than on one hand --  had that kind, I
mean, I was privy up to a point of sensitive information which I've
mentioned here but stuff like that, no.
L: So, when the inevitable happens that either Norman Starkey or Lyman
Spurlock or Marty Rathbun decides that they're not gonna take the rap
for all these criminal charges…
J: Well, they’re well-insulated.
L: …and, uh, goes state's evidence, they have quite a tale to tell,
don't they?
J: Yes they do.  Especially Marty. Marty is the key because he came in
there and got the baptism in fire and blood from the Diane & John
Colletto incident.
L: He's just hardened.
J: Yeah.
L: Do you think that any one of these three:  Spurlock, Starkey, or
Rathbun, when it comes to them going to jail for a long time or giving
up Miscavige, do you think any of those guys will eventually either
leak, crack or turn state's evidence? Which of the three do you think is
the most likely to not…
END OF SIDE A

SIDE B
L: The last question I asked is between Lyman Spurlock, Marty Rathbun
and Norman Starkey --
J: The weakest link in that chain is Marty Rathbun and the reason he's
the weakest link is because David Miscavige physically abuses him so
much.
L: When you say physically abuses, you mean?
J: Beats him.
L: On a regular basis, he will hit this guy.
J: Yeah, and Marty's the one who's already blown from the organization,
too.  He's already tried to get away.
L: Marty has tried to get away, but Miscavige brought him back and the
criminal, they have so much criminal activity on each other that they,
Miscavige is worried that if this guy goes out.
J: Yeah.
L: So Marty has already blown.  They just brought him back and broke him
down and kept him there.
J: Put him through the RPF, on the ship, put him through OTIII, all that
shit.
L: Poor Marty.
J: Poor Marty.
L: OK. Do you know where Marty Rathbun's parents are?  Do you know where
he comes from?
J: No.
L: Do you know anything about that?
J: No.
L: Where Lyman Spurlock’s parents are?
J: No.
L: The parents may want to be contacted.  It might help the transition
for them to realize that they might have to start thinking about cutting
a deal because there's a problem there. Lyman, Marty, Norman Starkey,
any idea of Norman Starkey's parents, where he came from?
J: South Africa.
L: South Africa.  OK. Go on with the next one.  Oh, we're talking about
PI's.  Do you know of any other PI firms besides Ingram that they use,
any other PI firms?
J: No.
L: So it's really all done through Ingram. Does Ingram hire other firms
around the country?
J: Yes, he does.
L: So he's running the whole show.
J: Yeah. Him and Marty.
L: How much money do you think has gone to Eugene Ingram.
J: Millions.
L: Millions.  One PI firm is making millions of dollars?
J: One PI, yeah.
L: How many millions, when you were there?
J: I wouldn't know.  I know that, you know, I don't know.  In RTC, I
think we probably dumped $150,000 at one point and then started getting
CSC to pay for it ‘cause we didn't want to pay for it.
L: Covert operations.  $150,000 over how long?
J: Less than a year.
L: Less than a year.  $150,000.  One organization.  How many
organizations could possibly be paying him besides RTC?
J: Uh, CSI, ASI.
L: Wow, that’s a lot.
J: Yeah, he doing pretty good for himself, financially.
L: Do you know anything about Eugene Ingram's background?
J: This was very much on a need to know basis. This is something that
was just kept like I say to just a very few people, unfortunately, no.
Fortunately I was not one of them.
L: OK.  All right.  Let's go on with the next thing.
J: OK. [Reading] "Political activities such as opposing or proposing
legislation, or opposing or supporting candidates. This could include
such means as telling members to write congressmen or make donations to
particular candidates or buying political influence for Scientology?"
The only answer I have for this question is that sometime, I guess it
was 1991, they were trying to get someone voted into office in Hemet and
we were all rounded up and told about this and told for the specific
candidate to go vote for him.
L: You were told by the church to vote for a specific candidate?
J: Yeah.
L: You were supposed to, you were literally supposed to vote for in
Hemet, California.
J: Right.  And they loaded us up on buses, we all went and voted for
that person.
L: And you just did exactly what they told you to do, and did they ask
you if you voted? Did they sec-check anyone to see if they voted, did
they have any way of telling if you really voted for that person?
J: Well, yes.  That person won.
L: That person won.  So Scientology helped affect the outcome.
J: Mayor of San Jacinto I believe it was.
L: San Jacinto, is that a very big town?
J: No, little town.
L: A thousand people?
J: Yes.  We'd go in there in buses and do whatever the hell they wanted
to.
L: So you guys affected the political structure.  It's illegal for a
religion in the United States to involve itself in political lobbying.
For anything like that, it loses its 501(3c) status.  It cannot endorse
candidates.  What you're telling me here is that they violated their IRS
promise to operate legally and they told you to vote for a certain
candidate and that candidate won.  How many people went in?
J: The whole base.
L: How many people is that? A hundred?  200?
J: 500 people.
L: 500 people were bussed into a town of a thousand people and voted for
this person and got him elected.
J: Yes.
L: And you were ordered to vote for this.  It was like, they were
telling you what to do with your free vote.
J: Right.
L: Absolutely.
J: This happened a couple of times too.  They had us do it, go down to
Riverside, loaded us up on buses and vote for a person in Riverside.
L: Do you remember who that was?
J: No, this is when I was doing really bad.  I mean, I was just like a
spineless individual.
L: So 500 staff members go to Riverside and are ordered to vote for one
person.  Did you ever, ever vote, did they ever say go out and vote
every year? Did you ever vote in your 17 years in Scientology?
J: That was my first time voting in my life.
L: So, they got you all registered, too?
J: Yes.
L: So they brought forms around to have you register before they told
you who to vote for.
J: Yes.
L: Okay.  So they were affecting political elections by controlling your
votes?
J: Correct.
L: In Riverside County.  Do you have any other knowledge of Scientology
listing out candidates and giving out advises to the members to donate
to those campaigns, like Sonny Bono or anyone like that?  Any
politicians that they ever mentioned, that they really liked certain
politicians?
J: I recall two times going out and doing the voting, and my memory of
that isn't good at all.
L: Do you know of any instances of Scientology giving politicians money
secretly through law firms or lobbying agents or anything like that?
J: No.
L: Anything like that.  OK.  Keep going.
J: OK. [Reading] "Using any of its tax-free income or assets to destroy
individuals or organizations as perceived as fair game?" I believe we’ve
covered that.
L: OK.
J: [Reading] "Any fraud or false statement on any applications to the
IRS to obtain 501(c)(3) non-profit exemption or on Scientology tax
returns?" I think I've already covered that.
L: Covered that.
J: [Reading] "Scientology or its agents exercising any undo influence
over IRS investigations or decision-makers including such things as
using former IRS employees with inside knowledge to negotiate with the
IRS?" OK.  Now there is something on this particular point.  A former
person, a person that worked with IRS that they would not say who it was
when they were doing this 501(c)(3).
L: They had someone inside the IRS working with them to help them create
a 501(c)(3).
J: Right. And a person outside, a former employee of the IRS.
L: Was his name Meade Emory?
J: That sounds familiar.
L: The former employee of the IRS.
J: That sounds familiar.
L: But what you're saying here is, while they were negotiating their
501(c)(3), an employee from the IRS was secretly helping Scientology do
this thing.
J: Correct. Right.
L: And they wouldn't talk about who it was.
J: No.  They emphatically would not even say anything about it.
L: Who?
J:  Marty and David Miscavige.
L: Marty and David Miscavige had an employee inside the IRS helping them
get this billion-dollar tax give-away?
J: Yes.
L: What made you believe that they had someone inside the IRS?
J: Because they said it. Just like we're talking here, they said, "We
have a person that used to work there, and we have a person that's there
now helping us do this."
L: Was it Marty or David Miscavige who said they had someone inside the
IRS that was helping them get the 501(c)(3)?
J: I believe it was David Miscavige.
L: David Miscavige.  Anything else?
J: It was the biggest damn secret, I mean they only said it once, you
know, at a meeting, after a meeting. What I recall is that we had just
been meeting on several things and we were sitting worrying about this
IRS thing, and then David and Marty, they just started talking.
L: For twenty-five years, the IRS has turned down Scientology's
applications, and all of a sudden in a secret agreement, they give them
tax status and forgive a billion dollars, David Miscavige estimated a
billion dollars in taxes. No one can understand how this happened.
J: It was an inside thing.
L: What about, the IRS agents have complained that they were getting
harassing phone calls and one's working on the case, at home. I believe
some stated they lost pets. Their pets disappeared.
J: Now see, I wouldn't have knowledge of that but I've heard about that
it happened.
L: It’s only what you know to be fact.   These are reports we've
received at FACTNet.
J: OK.
L: What's next on your list?
J: [Reading] "That all Scientology related corporations are controlled
by one unified management and that separation between corporations is a
sham and mere instrumentality?" We talked about that.
L: OK. What's next?
J: [Reading] "100. Anyone who has exerted undue, unfair,
disproportionate influence over Scientology's assets, trust, or reserve
accounts from other Scientology-related corporations over one of these
corporations to buy books, products…?" That’s the Fran Hurst story.
OK. [Reading] "101. Any trustee or fiduciary for one Scientology trust
or corporation who was posted or removed by an officer or executive from
a different Scientology-related corporation?" Well, you know, that whole
thing that kind of went down that I was involved in it in 1987 was
pretty much the way this happened.  Author Services came and removed,
you know, David Miscavige and Norman Starkey were trustees of the
Religious Technology Center, so they came from Author Services and did
this removal, you know. But it’s a just a sham any way you look at it,
you know.  There were certain people that ran Scientology.  David
Miscavige first. Me and Vicky Aznaran kind of even because she was a
woman and wasn't that well-liked.  Mike Yeager, Marty Rathbun,
supporting people. Lyman Spurlock, also a strong player.  Beyond that,
it falls into, everyone else who no matter who or what they’re called
just takes orders.  And that's the way it is.
 [Reading] "Any secret or non-secret intent, meetings, or actions by
Scientology to convey the substantial portion of its assets out of any
of its corporations, especially the Church of Scientology of California
while a lawsuit of considerable amount is pending?" What I recall about
this as being in a meeting with Marty Rathbun where they were talking
about the Wollersheim judgment and how, at the same time in conjunction
with the IRS, they were restructuring, and it was said that CSC, at
best, would be left with $2 million and there was no way that
Wollersheim could get his judgment.  I mean, it just wouldn't be there.
L: OK  So they deliberately moved the money so that they wouldn't have
to pay the judgment.
J: Right.
L: Anything else on that?
J: Also, in the banks at Liechtenstein. When the threat of the IRS was
there, money was poured into… It was researched out to find a country
that wouldn't be subject to US laws and Cyprus, Cyprus is what it was,
and a lot of money was put in Cyprus. A staff money was put there and I
mean, at that time, they were having like a civil war over there,
killing and on and on.  It was just madness!
L: And they still put all the money into Cyprus because they felt the
government could never get it.
J: Right.  Now, the details of that I do not know.
L: Let me ask you a question.  Say, David Miscavige and his top four
people start to feel the heat and that they're gonna go to jail. Who
controls those accounts?  Do they control these hundreds of millions of
dollars?
J: Yes.
L: Could they leave the country and take all Scientology's assets with
them?
J: Scientology's assets is spread far beyond the United States.  As a
matter of fact, I don't believe its major holdings are even in the
United States.
L: Is Scientology's major assets in stocks, bonds, and investments or is
it in real estate, or is it about equal?
J: I think the vast majority is cold, hard cash.
L: Cold hard cash.
J: Right. Money.
L: Who knows how much money?  Who are the people who know how much money
is--
J: In Scientology?  Mark Ingber. Bill Price. Wendel Reynolds probably
had a very good idea when he was the finance dictator. Um, Mike Jeager
would have had a very good idea.
L: So these people, obviously David Miscavige.
J: Yeah, David Miscavige.
L: Marty Rathbun, probably.
J: Yeah.
L: Would know the total amount of money. These are not people who know
where these accounts are?
J: Right.  There's another lady. Maureen somebody.
L: Are these accounts in the name of the Church of Scientology or could
they be in other names?
J: They could be in other names.
L: So, Miscavige and these people could take off and the only people who
would know where the money is --
J: And just have the secret accounts and all the codes, yes.
L: And nobody knows how --
J: Maria Brigotti.
L: Maria Brigotti.
J: Another heavy duty player.
L: But a few people know where all the money is.
J: Yes.
L: And they're the people controlling the money.
J: Right.
L: Are there any checks and balances, you know, outside of those people?

J: None whatsoever.
L: So, the government doesn't know.  The Scientologists don't know.  If
there was a catastrophe and they were all killed, nobody would know
where the money even was.
J: They’d have to dig it up.
L: If they were all in a plane accident, for example.
J: The money could be traced but I think it would take a couple years,
couple of years.
L: You think they have hidden accounts?
J: Yes!
L: That they don't want anyone to know exist?
J: Yes.
L: And who would be the signatories on these?
J: More than likely, Miscavige himself. Or his wife. You know, he uses
people that are very close to him or that have acknowledged that he's
some kind of strange diety, and he uses those people. And lawyers.
L: So they probably have some lawyers that are shilling these accounts.
J: Yeah.
L: Have we finished all those things?
J: Yes.
L: Let me ask you a couple other things.  How would you describe David
Miscavige the person?
J: A very scared individual, a very unsure individual.  I've had, I
mean, I've talked to him.  He's, he's like this: either he's totally
uncertain of himself or he's totally certain of evil and he's on a
vendetta.  When he's demonstrating power and making decisions and
showing authority, he's certain. But just to talk to him in those
moments when, you know, there's not reason to do all of that, he's just
a very uncertain, unsure person. He wants to know what you think. "Well,
what do you think about this or what do you think about that? Well, I
was uncertain." I mean, it's amazing to see the spectrum of his
character as a little, afraid, unsure person to a monster.
L: Would you describe it as two different personalities?
J: A few different personalities, yes. Multiple personalities.
L: Would you say that he's mentally sound?  I mean, when you look at it
now?
J: I think he needs medication.
L: Do you think he has some sort of underlying imbalance?
J: Yes.
L: Is it a chemical imbalance?
J: Psychological imbalance.  Because the only way he knows how to, I
mean, you know, the most simple situation, the only way he knows how to
act is with extreme force that overwhelms whatever is opposing him. And
whether it be mental, physical, whatever. That's the only way he knows
how to respond to a threat. And I'm talking about something like a damn
mouse running around the room.  He would have people in the room with
22's trying to kill the damn thing.
L: A little mouse?
J: Yes.
L: That actually happened.
J: No, I'm just giving an analogy of what I think about his character.
How overboard he goes over any kind of threat or opposition.
L: What would you describe his spiritual nature?  What is his nature?
J: I think he has none at all. I think he's just a seriously deprived
individual. What he's been deprived of is the common human experience
where people love each other, share with each other, where empathy
actually exists, where people will actually do something if someone else
is hurt, you know, reach a hand out or do something, or involve
themselves in the community.  He has no concept of these things.  He's a
second generation Scientologist.  His father was a Scientologist,
ignored the children, screamed at them, treated them like puppets and
toys, you know 'cause he.  I mean, him and his brothers stand on their
hands and do all these little tricks.  They still do this today. They're
grown men. But his father's pretty psychotic as well.  Prone to extreme
bursts of rage to low depression, you know.  And then L. Ron Hubbard is
the same way so it seems like David Miscavige has walked in the shadow
of insanity all his life and that's the only way he knows how to act.
L: What are the rest of his family members like?  I was told he has, had
some twin sisters, one of them committed suicide.
J: I've never met them.  I only know his brother and his father.  I
really don't know the rest of his family.
L:  Where do the rest of them live? Where does the rest of his family
live?
J: Loretta, God where does she live, somewhere on the east coast. His
mother.
L: She has nothing to do with Scientology anymore.
J: I don't know whether or not she does or not.  I know he constantly
pulls her in and gets her ethics counseling. And she gets special
treatment at the ship whenever something goes wrong, fly her to the
ship, then take care of Loretta.
L: So do you think she pays for that auditing?
J: No.
L: So he's giving his family special free auditing.
J: Yeah, I think so.
L: She has no contract as a staff member.
J: No, refuses to be on the staff.
L: He’s using the resources of Scientology for his personal gain and
advantage.
J: Correct.  And then his brother who works at Int management, Ron
Miscavige, who also left Scientology at one point and they kind of
begged him to come back. And he came back and he went and started some
WISE business. And then his father. Those are the ones that I know.
L: He has a sister.
J: I hear he has a couple of them but I never met either one of them.
L: They've never been around, never showed up, nothing. Tell me about,
you mentioned a little bit about Rick Klinger.
J: Gary Klinger.
L: Gary Klinger.
J: He's an ex-HGO person that has always been in intelligence, always
been doing ops long before I even had a clue that the church did that
shit, and he was in the Scientology…
L: He went in the GO before the OSA.
J: Yeah.
L: And he was in intelligence in the GO before the OSA.
J: Him and Jeff Schrieber.
L: So, when Scientology made this public statement that they disbanded
the GO, all those people were dismissed, they don't do that anymore, two
of the top intelligence people from the GO --
J: And Ben Shaw
L: -- and Ben Shaw are now the top intelligence people at your time, are
the top intelligence people.
J: Right.
L: Another complete sham.
J: Right. Nothing's changed.
L: Nothing's changed.
J: No.
L: What other GO people are high ranking in the OSA or the intelligence
division of Scientology?
J: Well, I knew Klaus and Edith Buculae, who were ex-GO people that
were…
L: In the OSA.
J: Yeah, in the OSA.  A woman named Cathy somebody, not Cat Moro either,
but another woman that kind of had buck teeth and short blonde hair.
Oh, I can't remember her ding dang name. But as a matter of fact, the
whole entirety of the OSA network was majorly staffed with ex-GO people
or people that worked for ex-GO people that were in these external units
executing GO.  They bought in, you know.  It's the same thing.  It's the
same people.
L: The people who went to jail, Artie Merin and Henning Heldt, I think
Henning went to jail.
J: Mm-hmm.
L: Aren’t they back working inside the OSA undercover again, working
with Scientology, do you know?
J: I believe Henning Heldt is.  I've heard that name come up.
L: OK.  Marty or someone mentioned it?
J: Yeah.  But like I say, I was not privy to that super high level kind
of thing.
L: He was one of those people that went to jail, and they said they had
disavowed and would never be back in Scientology.
J: I remember they were doing something with Jane Kember after she got
out.
L: So, Jane Kember after she got out of jail got back involved with-
J: the Church doing something.
L: The OSA, or just the Church?
J: OSA.
L: Back with the intelligence division.  The former head of the
worldwide intelligence agency who they disavowed was now brought back in
undercover into the OSA.  And this is the, you realize that David
Miscavige, almost every time, or Heber, they get up and they'd say, you
know,
"Those were the old days.  We don't do that."
J: I know the party line. I know it all too well.
L: This is quite humorous.
J: It's disgusting me, actually. I’m starting to get disgusted.
L: Let me ask you about Gary Klinger.  Any criminal acts you remember
Gary Klinger personally involved in?
J: Well, the bugging which resulted in the TRO against RTC and CSC over
that David Mayo property.
L: OK.
J: Oh, the getting of the documents from them in the financial records.
L: He stole the financial records.
J: He had his operatives do it.
L: He was involved in the stealing of financial records from the
reformed church of David Mayo.
J: Right.
L: Anything else you know about criminal activity he was involved in?
J: Beyond that specifically, no.
L: How about Rick Aznaran?
J: Shredding documents, attempted planting of drugs, illegal drugs on
John Nelson, bugging, the staff member bugging. He's the one that got
the bugging equipment so we could do Bill & Holly Finnell. Also the
bugging equipment that was employed on John Nelson in his room.
L: They bugged John Nelson?
J: Yeah.
L: Was he still in the Church?
J: No, he was out at this time.
L: Do you know of any other staff members who've been bugged while they
were members of the Church of Scientology?
J: Beyond those that I've mentioned, I don’t.
L: Anything else Rick Aznaran was involved in? Criminal?
J: Beyond what I said, I don't.
L: How about Terry Gamboa.  What did she do?
J: As far as facts, I have none. But I think Terri was very much
instrumental in the raping and pillaging of the orgs in this minimum
book stock order and making sure that those -- She was the executive
director of Author Services for awhile, quite awhile. Norman Starkey was
her junior. So all of the criminality and separateness of corporations,
she was very much involved in that.
L: So, if I understand correctly, they were ordering the orgs to write
them out big checks for all these books that they were being forced to
buy.
J: Which they couldn't even often deliver because they hadn't even been
manufactured. It was a joke.
L: So the money would go to ASI and then a lot of this money was going
to overseas bank accounts out of ASI and RTC.
J: Well I didn’t say that.
L: I was just asking. So, where did it go once it would go to ASI, all
this cash?
J: My understanding is it went into an account L. Ron Hubbard had, his
personal finances.  Because Author Services represented him.
L: Do you know about the e-meter L. Ron Hubbard being paid between 20
and 60 million dollars for an e-meter that he didn't invent, in
royalties, that was bought from him?  His supposed inventor's royalties
were bought from him by Scientology to channel 25 to 60 million dollars
to him?  Do you know anything about that?
J: No.
L: You know, we've talked about a lot of stuff.  Is there anything else
that you’ve seen Miscavige or Starkey or any of these top people of
Scientology, is there anything in Scientology that you, now that you
start looking from the outside that we haven’t talked about, that you
see as particularly cruel or ruthless, you know, just really mean to
another human being, just viciousness?
J: I talked to you about the incident about when it rained the entire
staff was put in lower conditions, because there was a thunderstorm.
L: Because it rained outside. Miscavige said that they had to be more in
control of things. Because it rained.
J: Yeah.
L: That’s what I call kind of crazy, any other crazy stuff like that?
J: [Long pause] He would turn off the lights and grab girls.
L: He would? David Miscavige?
J: Yeah.
L: What do you mean by grabbing?  Grab them in a sexual way?
J: Yeah.  They would scream and squeal.
L: Grab their breasts? Grab their asses?
J: Wherever. Wherever.
L: You saw this occur?
J: I'd see them running around and of course they would kind of stop
that.  But then I would have to patch up the people that he did it to.
Terry Gamboa and Joanie Labacky, you know, just physically having their
way with these women.
L: Did they have sex with him?
J: I couldn't say.  I know that there was some witness though, that
Norman was supposed to be watching and she ended up giving him a blow
job. And Norman ended up having to do lower conditions.
L: Some witness.
J: Yes.
L: Some witness in a Scientology case?
J: Yes, and he was watching her in a room because people were looking
for her, whatever.  She ended up blowing him in there.
L: So he had to do lower conditions for that. They were keeping her
separate?
J: In a hotel room, yeah.
L: So that she couldn't be a witness?
J: No, she was being prepared.
L: When they prepare witnesses, were you ever prepared by Scientology
attorneys?
J: Oh absolutely.
L: Did they ever say to you, did they ever say anything to imply that
you don't have to tell the truth?
J: I remember them specifically saying, "Don't say it like that.  Say it
like this."  But the specifics of it, I couldn't tell you because I’ve
been prepared so many times, you know, with the lawyer and the questions
and you know, you need to get it right.
L: They would drill you on the correct answers.
J: Right.
L: Who would give you these answers, the attorneys or, or, I mean, were
they your answers or were they --
J: Answers, no.  Like, I remember Earle Cooley definitely being there
during some of the drilling, "Don't say this. Say that."
L: They were telling you what not to say.
J: Right.
L: Even if it was the truth, they would tell you not to say it.
J: Right.
L: Earle Cooley instructed you not to tell the truth.
J: Right.
L: And he said, "Just don't give this answer"?
J: Yeah but you see, I can't say in specifics because I was being
prepared for that RICO case and I was being prepared for days. I was up
all night at Author Services. You say, now what do they have to do with
the RICO suit? Nothing. But we’re up. Joe Yanni fell asleep there up all
night.  Earle Cooley was up, you know, just being prepared. Marty was
the one doing the questioning and saying, "Now, you know, you say it
like this. You do this. You do that. Hold it, let me check with the
attorneys. Should he say, now if they say this, what should he say? No,
don't say that, say this." That type of thing.
L: Did you ever know what they were telling you was false?  That they
were telling you to say it even though it was false?
J: My state of mind at that time was say what you had to say to win.
L: Whatever you have to say to win, whatever they tell you to say, say
it.
J: And learn it and say it well.
L: Do you think this is a common practice with everyone who Scientology,
any Scientology staff member or executive is drilled on what to say,
literally told what to say whether it's true or not?
J: Sure.
L: You know of anyone else who was ever drilled like this?
J: Ray Mithoff, Warren McShane.
L: And they’re told, you know, "You say what we tell you to say" and
that's it.
J: "This is what they'll probably ask you and this is the deal, so this
is what you say. Here it is right here."
L: Did they ever have anything typed up that want you to say, like a
script?
J: No.  They were careful not to do that.
L: Did you know -- in one sense, you knew that you were doing what you
had to do to win.
J: Right.
L: OK.
J: In other words, I'll tell you a specific.  I'll tell you a specific
relating to Earle Cooley.  When we had the stolen materials from David
Mayo's group that was gotten by Bob Mithoff, and then I was being
drilled.
L: On the stolen material?
J: Yeah, comparing them to these materials.  Then I asked the question,
I said, "What do I say when they ask where I got these materials from?"
And Earle Cooley said, "Just say some church person dropped them off or
gave them to us."
L: Did Earle Cooley know they were stolen when he said that to you?
J: Yes.  Yes.
L: So Earle Cooley --
J: He said, "You don't know.  Somebody dropped them off on the steps."
L: So Earle Cooley, an officer of the court is drilling you on stolen
materials that he knows are stolen by the Church of Scientology and he's
telling you to say, you don't know. Somebody might have dropped them off
on the steps. What made you think that Earle Cooley knew that these were
stolen materials?
J: Because he knew where the hell we got them from.  Because I discussed
it. I said, "You know we got these materials on the Inves lines. What do
I say if I'm asked?"
L: So he knew that you had obtained those illegally because you told him
you obtained them illegally, and he told you to lie.
J: Yeah, he said, "What do you mean? You found those on the steps."
L: OK.  Any other Scientologists or any other executives you know that
have been drilled by attorneys.
J: It's a common practice.  It would probably take me some amount of
days to go through my mind and try to figure out specific examples like
I just did there.
L; Would it be fair to say that no Scientology executive goes on the
stand without intense drilling sessions?
J: Or staff member, exactly.
L: Or staff member, where they're told what to say?
J: For days.
L: For days.
J: Yes.
L: Have you ever heard of a staff member or executive saying, "You know,
that's not true.  I can't do that"?  Have you ever heard anything like
that?  What would happen if a staff member said-
J: Off with your head!  You just-
L: You’d go into lower conditions and punished.
J: You would be disappear and be tortured until you came to your damn
senses
L: To do what they told you to do.  So basically, would it be fair to
say that Scientology trains its people to commit perjury on the stand?
J: Yes.
L: And that Scientology's attorneys participate in this perjury?
J: Yes.
L: Knowingly participate in instructing the staff to tell lies.
J: Right.  Nothing like a good drilled witness. You know, they're
predictable.
L: OK. Why don't we save something for tomorrow and do some exercise?
What do you think about that?
[Machine off, then on again]
L: Which one did you read?  You read that one.
J: Mm-hmmm. It’s the 27th.
L: This is Lawrence Wollensheim and <a href="http://lisatrust.bogie.nl/stories/activists/meetjesse.htm" target="_blank">Jesse Prince</a> .  Today is August
27th.  Jesse just read a document called, what's the title?  Pervasive
Pretext of Religion in Scientology.  I have some questions, Jesse, about
when you were in Scientology. They call themselves a religion and
according to our Constitution, any person with any set of beliefs can
call themselves a religion.  It doesn't matter if you're a neo-Nazi
group, you know, an Aryan Church teaching hate of Blacks and Jews and
you call yourself a religion.  It doesn't matter if you're a, you know,
organization that believes in prostitution of children.  You can believe
anything you want and set up a religion around any belief in the United
States.  We have very liberal laws so it's, you know, religion is
anything. There are Satanic churches, lots of Satanic churches. They
have 501(c)(3) status and they're entitled according to our laws to be a
religion.
J: Right.
L: What I'm curious about is, when you were in Scientology, did any of
the people profess in God, in the management?  Did people believe in any
God that you know of from your experience?
J: I'll just start from the beginning on that question. In 1976, when I
first joined the Church, ooh, let me stop saying that, when I first
joined Scientology, I myself was quite a religious person with a long
religious background. I've been a Catholic. I’ve gone to Catholic
schools from first 'til eighth grade. I've been an altar boy.  I've been
baptized.  I've been confirmed.  I've done all the major mass ceremonies
as an altar boy and had a basic very strong conviction in God as a
Creator and Person with divine force over man and everything else that
we live in.  So, I believe at one point I was even gonna go be a priest.
The only attraction of Scientology for me when I first got into it was
the religious aspect, the concept of a non-denominational religion that
could bring different and all religions together, and introduce a new
way of thinking, or a new science, or a new technology, or a new way of
approaching the Divine, was what I perceived as going on.  And Dianetics
was like a window into the soul that would help you become more aware of
this spiritual nature of yourself.  This was prior to receiving any
auditing. You know, as time went on, I didn't have a whole lot of
Dianetics, thank God, but I never myself sincerely contacted past life
events or things of a nature that if I looked at had any kind of effect
on me that made a difference in my life after looking at it. In other
words, they were just kind of like things that were kind of interesting,
getting into these altered states, mild hypnotic trance-like states.
All these kind of things, you know, but then what I found odd was there
was never any kind of service whatsoever concerning religion in
Scientology.  In other words, there was never a day set aside to
acknowledge humanity, everything that's here.
L: You don't get a day off to worship?
J: None whatsoever.  There is no, not one single prayer in the religion
whatsoever, and I actually asked someone when I was on the EPF, when is
the damn church service? And I was just straight bluntly told, "We don't
have any church services. We don't have any prayers. We don't have
anything like that."
L: Did that ever change?
J: No, never. And at that point, I’m thinking, where is the religion?
Well, between me having that thought, I had pretty much decided that
this is something else going on here in Scientology that I do not want
to be a part of. I had pretty much decided I was gonna get away. This
was within the first three months, two and a half months of being in the
Sea Org.  At which point, I was just gotten by a bunch of people because
I said I wanted to leave and was just forcibly incarcerated for about 18
months.
L: You were put on the RPF.
J: Yes, put on the RPF.
L: You said you wanted to leave.
J: Right. I said I wanted nothing to do with this. And it had nothing to
do with religion at that time. In my mind, I had pretty much made up my
mind that I had made a bad choice. But then, through this process of
auditing which you happen to get on the RPF, you just kinda get
sprinkles of little things that seem interesting, sprinkles of something
that's insightful.  And then you're constantly audited and in a highly
suggestible state is that, I now realize, is kinda like being pulled
along very slightly to the point where now I might as well just be here
and see what this is about now.  Maybe it's not so bad, you know? This
is after getting a lot of auditing.
 The first 18 months in Scientology for me, the incarceration and
Dianetics which is majorly what I got. Then I got out. I went in’76, got
out in '79. And right around that time period, L. Ron Hubbard came out
with this Dianetic Clear, Natural Clear, Clear this, Clear that.  So,
when I actually got out of Scientology, out of RPF, I pretty much
immediately went onto their higher levels. They had a process, quad
grades, where they asked you four questions for each grade, and I just
wrapped them up in two days.
L: Let me ask a question kind of directing to where I think you're
going, is, did the executives of Scientology believe, the people at the
top of Scientology believe in God, any kind of God that you saw?
J: Well, let me get to that.
L: OK.
J; I'll get to that, OK?  The next thing that happened after I finished
these quickie grades in Scientology, is I did OT I.  Now, this is really
secret stuff here now.  I do this OT I, and it’s basically like a
walking around class noticing things and being able to audit yourself.
OK.  Finished that, it was like a real nothing kind of event. Then OT
II, these dichotomies. Now, these are the things that nearly made me
crazy. A list of these dichotomies, just concepts, good/bad, hot/cold,
and then lines that intersect them. These were like thought processes.
It's seems like to me these are kind of like a fundamental way that
people kind of thought of things but the detail that was being added to
it elicited certain reactions. Like I would get hot, I would be afraid,
you know, all of these, you know think of it, these crazy ass things.
 Now the kicker, I remember the day when I got that OTIII pack and read
this crazy story about space invaders and all of this stuff.  And this
was like, I was already reading L. Ron Hubbard's science fiction anyway
and thought that it was nowhere as good as Heinlein or something like
that, you know.  It was just very mediocre. But then there was that line
in there that said there is no such thing as God. There is no such thing
as the devil. It's all just an implant.  At that moment, I thought, Well
then, what is the deal with this religion?  I mean, I became severely
confused and upset about that whole concept that someone would say that
it would take me being in Scientology now for two and a half damn years,
for them to tell me, "'Oh, there ain't no God. There ain't no devil.
It's just a bunch of crap."

[END OF SIDE B]