Tape 4, August 25,1998 (Continued from Tape 3)
Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince L: You mentioned Kevin True had fingers cut off.
J: Yeah, he was doing something, he was actually making something for me
when he had his accident, for my dog. I said, well I’d like something
heavy for my dog to pick up and play with, like a wooden barbell. No, he
suggested, I’ll make you a wooden barbell for Mens, something he’d dig.
I said, OK, whatever.
L: Do you have any knowledge of Scientology falsifying accident reports
of people who are hurt in the organization, and falsifying those
records. Workman’s Compensation and the government require that if
certain accident reports that occur, there are reports filed.
J: Yes, I remember now, you’re making me. It was standard practice to
not go on Workman’s Compensation, no matter what you did. It’s kind of
like if you had an accident, no Workman’s Comp, we don’t want them
involved. It was a bad thing to get Workman’s Comp. I actually injured
my knee working, when they had me working in the field. I couldn’t do
anything through Workman’s Comp. They just sent me to the chiropractor a
couple of times and said that was pretty much it, you’ll be audited.
L: No one was allowed, if you filed a report with Workman’s
Compensation, what would happen to you in the church?
J: You wouldn’t do it, it’s just not something that happened. You were
told not to do it.
L: You were literally told, "If you’re injured, you do not report this."
J: Right.
L: Did Scientology have insurance for staff members that paid?
J: Apparently not.
L: Any kind of insurance that you knew of?
J: I never had any.
L: Medical?
J: No.
L: Health?
J: No.
L: No type of insurance.
J: None whatsoever.
L: Did they insure their buildings? Against fire?
J: Not that I know of, I’ve never seen it. I know as a director, I
never had any building insured.
L: Never was any insurance on any of the properties?
J: No.
L: Let’s go on with the list here.
J: This is a list that says here, "The following people he personally
knows have had psychotic episodes while on auditing. Some of the people
on the following list are still in the Sea Organization." Two people
are Stephanie and Chris Silcock. I know that Chris Silcock was John
Travolta’s auditor for quite a while. He wanted to leave the Sea
Organization. He was put through complete misery. He was there at the
same time I was there with my ex-wife trying to leave. They ordered a
divorce between he and his wife. They have been married for 27 years,
had a kid together. I know he went pretty crazy. But, he kept in his
mind he was leaving. I do believe he actually left.
L: Would you say he went neurotic or psychotic?
J: Yes, completely.
L: Psychotic?
J: Well, more neurotic.
L: We finished the list of all the people on our list. Is there anyone
that you knew, or heard of that attempted suicide while in Scientology
that wasn’t on our list? Or sent psychotic?
J: Jan, there was a girl named Jan, and Andre can tell you this story
better than me. I forget her last name, but we were on the 7th floor of
the complex, this back in ’79. That woman sat on the damn window ledge,
leaning out like this, crying her eyes out, and was about to jump. Andre
Tavio [Taboyoyan?] even talked her off the ledge.
L: Why was she going to jump?
J: She was just depressed.
L: Did you ever hear anything about whether it was related to auditing?
J: It was related to being in Scientology, can’t get out. We were
incarcerated, we couldn’t leave.
L: She was locked at the time?
J: We were in RPF, yes.
L: That’s what I didn’t know. You were under lockdown, and she wanted
to leave, and she was about to kill herself because they wouldn’t let
her leave?
J: Right. Andre talked her off the ledge, at which point she was
confined to the first floor. A person named Janet Dare and Cheryl
Herzer, Cheryl Sutter, or whatever her name is now, watched her for
weeks. Then she was taken out of the Sea Org.
L: They took her out of the seventh floor to the first floor because
they didn’t want her jumping.
J: And then locked her up for real in a room under armed guard.
L: Locked her up… when you say armed guard, you mean…
J: Not armed guard, a guard.
L: Do you know anyone else who attempted, or actually committed suicide,
or you heard may have committed suicide, or went psychotic?
J: Beyond those ones that I’ve mentioned that I know, I don’t there’s
nothing else that comes to mind.
L: Do you have any knowledge of people on the ELs or OT III ….
J: Wait a minute, Ed Brewer.
L: Ed Brewer.
J: What I heard about Ed Brewer was he was out ethics, and he was with
some car accidents and bled to death. It was a problem that he bled
death. They didn’t believe he bled to death or something. I know it came
up as a big problem when Ed Brewer died. It’s really bad that he died,
the guy bled to death, he was in a car, people walked away from him. I
remember hearing this story, the Ed Brewer story. I remember hearing
Marty talk about it.
L: Was Scientology somehow involved, or somehow negligent?
J: Somehow they were, both. They were involved by watching him or
something, and then some kind of negligence happened where he didn’t get
some kind of medical assistance. They were talking about him like this
was a big fucked thing and we gotta do something about this.
L: So, there was some problem with his death?
J: Right.
L: If you remember anything in more detail…
J: What I remember was he was left to die.
L: He was left to die.
J: And he was not in the good graces of the church, no one was willing
to help him. He was kind of like fair gamed or something.
L: And he bled to death because no one would help him.
J: Yeah. And they were like, it’s good for him the fucking prick, this
kind of thing.
L: They actually said that?
J: Yeah.
L: Marty Rathbun?
J: Yeah.
L: That that’s what happens to people who…
J: Yeah, go out ethics against the church, that’s what happens. The
SOB, he bled to death.
L: Was he a staff member?
J: Ed Brewer, I do believe he was. I didn’t know him personally; I
didn’t come to know him until after his death, who and what he was.
Then, also, Dennis Erlich was a good friend of mine, and was during the
time of the church, when I was still in the church and he was outside of
the church, picketing the church. He asked me something about Ed Brewer,
and I told it pretty much what I told you right now.
L: OK. On the upper levels, introspection rundown, the ELS, the OTCs, OT
III, have you ever seen or heard of anyone going psychotic, or it was
such a…
J: Yes, European people, but I couldn’t tell your names. People that
just went berserk. Women, I’ve seen a couple of women.
L: When you say berserk, can you give us some for.
J: I mean like no longer even doing anything that resembles what
everyone else is doing around them.
L: Screaming?
J: Screaming, talking out of their head. Speaking, you can’t understand
them. Throwing things around. Moving erratically.
L: When that would happen, what would they do?
J: Lock the person up.
L: They would lock them up, and occurred during the upper secret levels,
something that happened during that time. Let me ask you about finances,
money, bank accounts, money being transferred out of the country. You
mentioned something about Cyprus yesterday.
J: You want me to talk about that, you’ve got to let me tell the story,
and then after I tell it, ask me questions.
L: I’m going to listen to your stories, and I’ll trade you more later.
J: OK. There was a point in time when they were buying that Free Winds
ship, and this was prior to the IRS tax exempt status. Well they were
systematically emptying all of the bank accounts outside of the US and
lowering them to a real low level. Someone had gone to Cyprus, and I
forget who the hell it was, it may have even been Norman. Some people
went to Switzerland, some people went to Cyprus. They did a research to
find out where was the least place the United States government could
have an effect on a country, in relationship to its money. And they
picked Cyprus and they poured a bunch of money into it.
L: They drained US accounts?
J: Drained US accounts, in other countries, and moved it to Cyprus.
L: How much are we talking about, any estimates?
J: Hundreds of millions of dollars.
L: Hundreds of millions of dollars taken out of the US?
J: Right.
L: Was it taken out according to the law, where anything over $10,000 is
transferred, you notify the government?
J: I don’t know how they did it, I just know that they did it. Then
what was mixed in with that was this IAS, it just sprung a whole new
reason to get money from people. So they mixed the monies together,
money that they raised for the IAS, and the money that they had already
put in there. They mixed those monies together, to make it seem like it
was all brand new IAS money.
L: To hide the fact that they had taken it from other organizations all
over the world?
J: Right.
L: What year was this?
J: ’84, ’83 – ’84.
L: Just to give you some background, the judge in my case ordered them
not to transfer assets. They claimed they only had $16 million worth of
assets in the church of Scientology in California. We claimed they
stripped out $500 million and moved it out of the country.
J: Yeah.
L: They claimed it was bullshit. Were you ever aware of anyone ever
saying we need to move the country because of the Wollersheim lawsuit
and get all of the assets out of the church of Scientology in
California?
J: Yes, Marty saying that, Marty saying that by the time Wollersheim
gets ready to collect, the CSC is just going to be a shell corporation,
there will be nothing there.
L: So, they knew what they were doing.
J: Oh, absolutely.
L: They deliberately stripped the assets from…
J: from CSC.
L: ...hundreds of millions of dollars. What do you think that CSC might
have been worth in 1980, 1979?
J: You have to take a look at this. There was no CSI, there was CSC.
L: CSC was everything.
J: It was everything, so everything they had was there. When I arrived,
the figures that we used to count in 1982, as far as Sea Org reserves,
just that one Sea Org reserve account, was in access of $200 million.
L: Just one account in the church of Scientology of California, the C
org was in excess of $200 million?
J: Right.
L: What other accounts were there that you knew of?
J: The RTC account, there was $18 million there.
L: $18 million in the RTC account. How much do you think Scientology was
worth in ’82, ’83? Did you ever see any figures on how much it was
worth?
J: Without the services it was in excess of $500 million.
L: $500 million, that’s what they talked internally? Who threw that..
J: Dave Miscagive, Lyman, Norman Starkey.
L: All said the church was worth $500 million.
J: But they also had other investments that were turning as well. They
had investments as well.
L: Tell me about these investments.
J: I can’t, because that’s all I know. I was just told that there were
also investments. You see, this was not money that they would openly.
Just getting them to talk about money at all was like pulling elephant
tusk with a pair of pliers. It’s not like they run around bragging about
it. I was questioning, and I just realized I was on dangerous, you know,
like, "Why you asking, why the hell you asking, what, what." I just got
off of it, I got off of it to the point when it was revealed to me that
they also had investments that were turning, that was worth an awful
bunch of money, too.
L: Did anybody ever say how much an awful bunch of money might have
been?
J: No.
L: Did you feel that when they said that, they were talking about more
than the value of the church of Scientology, any kind of feeling?
J: I got the feeling that it was some inexhorbitent money, some great
amount of money, tied up in investments, and the details I did not even
want to know, because I was walking on shaky grounds.
L: So, they may have been in Miscavige’s name, or Starkey’s name or
somebody else’s name, or even in the church’s name.
J: Anything’s possible. I think more, it was connected with the WISE,
the secular stuff. I think it was more in those arenas.
L: Let’s talk about the IRS and Scientology. Did anyone inside of
Scientology when you were there, ever speak of hiding facts or creating
a fraud in any shape, manner, or form, to…
J: ..to the IRS. We talked about this quite a bit already on tape. I
told you about the document destruction.
L: Right. Were the attorneys..
J: The attorneys were there, checking all along the way, each step of
completion, to make sure that there was some type of corporate integrity
there, to show the IRS. They looked at the books, they changed the
books, whatever they did with the books, get rid of the advices, yes, it
was a continuing process.
L: They knew in effect, that in essence, the whole church was controlled
either by Miscavige or Hubbard, and there was no separate corporations.
The attorneys knew this, yet filed these documents, knowing that this
was a fraud.
J: Right.
L: What attorneys were involved in that again?
J: The Lenske brothers, Heller, those were the major ones. Heller even
went up so far as to stand up on video saying he was part of the new
management. I mean, now that he was speaking about it, he had an
investment in it for sure. He would get up as a public speaker, speaking
to the Scientologists, telling them how things are.
L: And, they knew along this was a fraud they were perpetrating on the
IRS.
J: Sure.
L: Do you have any idea how valuable the IRS tax-exempt status is to
Scientology? How valuable they view it?
J: I’m sure it’s like a crown jewel to them.
L: I’ve heard that they had a billion dollars in tax liability that was
dismissed when they got that fraudulent tax status. Is that possible
from what you heard?
J: Sure.
L: Did you ever hear anyone say what they thought their tax liability
was, if they didn’t get the status?
J: Yes I do, and I don’t recall the figure. I do knew that was not even
a concern, the concern was getting the money out of the country to these
foreign bank accounts.
L: They just wanted the money out. No, that’s it for today.
[END OF THAT SESSION]
8/26/98
L: Today is the 25th of August [L got date wrong; was 26th]. I’m sitting
with Jesse Prince . This is Lawrence Wollersheim, we’re continuing going
over various materials. We’re going over today, a list that FACTNet put
out several years ago of questions for former members to help bring out
information on Scientology’s activities because Scientology is so
cloaked in secrecy and security clearances, and compartmentalized dirty
tricks divisions. Unless you reach out to former members, and ask them
to give their pieces, you can’t put the puzzle completely together. A
lot of people wind up suffering because of it. That’s what we are going
over. Jesse, do you want to start with your first note?
J: Well, I made a note here for #2. [Reading] "Scientology members are
forbidden to talk to each other about anything harmful that happens to
them or others while involved with Scientology." This is an extremely
early indoctrination that is common among all Scientologists. I guess
you really come up to it when you take any version or form of
Scientology’s PTSSP course. Suppressive persons or trouble source
person, where you are heavily indoctrinated not to ever speak about bad
things that happen because you are spreading inturbulation, they call
it. You are just indoctrinated through a series of steps progressively
in Scientology to remain silent. The next thing you learn is to lie. It
is based against these 8 principles of existence that L. Ron Hubbard
says he came up with. It’s basically OK to lie if your lie is
protecting the greater number of these 8 points of existence, which is
just more coercive crazy mind control stuff.
L: Do you know of any situation where people were told to keep quite
about certain things that went wrong, or were bad, or criminal in
Scientology, any of this, they told that this is the greatest good for
the greatest number dynamics, so you need to be silent about this? Does
anything pop up to mind right off the bat?
J: You know, I’ve said so many, it would just be regurgitating what I’ve
already said.
L: Let’s go on to the next point.
J: OK, I made a point #3. [Reading] "Scientology members are deceived by
Scientology policies into keeping silent about any member casualties or
illegal activities they might hear about, or be a part of." The only
thing I can relate to this is something that I mentioned yesterday in
regards to the Gilman Hot Springs location, how you get this pack of
advices, they’re not even policy letters. Advices from L. Ron Hubbard,
Annie, or whoever, that basically trains you how not to interact with
the legal system when seeking something from the legal or social system
in America, such as abortions or different medical aid for operations or
things like this. They’re basically trained to lie. When I first came
to the base I was given an assumed name, and used that in town. There is
a false address that everyone uses there. This is like indoctrination
when you get there, you are told, "You don’t tell the truth about what
you’re doing, you say this is just a music studio. No management exists
here whatsoever." This kind of thing.
L: Why are you told to lie about who you are, what you’re doing? What
is the reason?
J: I wish I knew.
L: You just lie because you’re told to.
J: Instantly.
L: Let’s go on.
J: [Reading] "#4"Scientology has not stopped its abusive practice and is
totally incapable of reforming itself." I think I just kind of covered
that a whole lot earlier. Question is, [Reading] "Please describe any
knowledge you have of the following situations, #1 any fraud or
deception used to get money from members using their credit cards or
loans from lending institutions, or their families." I’ve just seen it
repeatedly done, specifically at Flag, where a person would be told they
are not at a flat point on their auditing, and get sent to the
registrar. The person would already come with no money, they will have
exhausted all of their money already. There was a routing form that
Scientology put these people on. My point, or check in there was
cramming, where you just look at a person’s file and make sure that the
auditing, or the practices that they were getting were done. At which
point they would get sent on to the registrar. The registrar was after
me, but I just know the nightmares and the horrors that happened to
people once they got to them registrars. I do have a friend, Thomas
Randhoff, who was a public Scientology, who told me a horror story about
going to the registrar as a public Scientologist, how they got him to
use his credit cards, call his parents for money, so that he could get
all of these urgently needed services based on his personality analysis
test. He was also unduly influenced because he was an understudy of
Chick Corea for a couple of years. He had that influence, too. Chick is
constantly pushing him into, so he definitely ran into some difficulties
with Scientology earlier on, based on their reging practices.
L: So, would you characterize the way that they, I mean, when you say
they’re not at a flat point, means that they’re not complete, means
they’re not complete?
J: Right.
L: Is there a danger there that would be conveyed to the person. Is
there some sort of fear, or it is, well, you’re not complete, and it
would be nice of you got this auditing, but there’s no big thing.
J: No, the idea is that you’re in personal danger, you’re not able to
mentally function like you should unless you have this. You’re open to
unseen forces having an effect on your life in a very detrimental way.
L: So the person believes that something bad will happen to him if he
doesn’t give them more money?
J: Yes.
L: Did you ever hear of amounts of money that people would sign over
when they believed this, that they had to give them more money?
J: A 12 ½ hour intensive, I believe at the time I was doing it, was like
$8,000.
L: For 12 ½ hours it was $8,000? Do you believe that the people that
were doing this believed that they really had to get them to sign it, or
do you believe that this was money motivated?
J: This was money motivated, for the organization. The organization
each week has to have its stats up. It has to each week to more than it
did last week. It has nothing to do with the individual or anything like
that. It’s about getting more, doing more.
L: So you mean, the director of income of the organization might look at
all the people that are receiving services and kind of look at the ones
that they might target who are in the middle, who they might tell these
things, you’re in danger to, to get these people to get even more money?
J: Right. They regularly go through active pre-clear files, which is
basically anyone that is on lines there are getting services. The case
supervisors, and this is another point of, it’s just so funny that they
just brought this up in the deposition about who would be allowed to see
a pre-clear folder. The case supervisor goes through and lists in the
summary for the registrar, what the person had, gives them an estimate
of how long they think he’s going to need more, and then they figure how
much it’s going to cost, and call the person incessantly. It’s a
never-ending process.
L: Have you ever seen a sales person look in a person’s PC file?
J: Yes.
L: Can you name the person.
J: No, but I seen it as a standard practice. I’ve seen it so much at
Flag.
L: You mean this was not a rarity that these sales people would look
inside the PCs folders?
J: On no, not a rarity at all.
L: It wasn’t a rarity. Why would a sales person be looking inside the
folders?
J: For a tech estimate, to look at the program a little more. To see how
much more money he could get.
L: OK. Let’s go on with the next one.
J: [Reading] "Anyone who was fair game or had their reputation destroyed
by Scientology." The people that I know who were definitely fair game
was even mentioned..
L: They actually said it within the organization, that somebody was fair
game?
J: Yeah.
L: Who said?
J: Marty Rathbun, David Miscavige.
L: Who did they say was fair game?
J: Lawrence Wollersheim, Gerry Armstrong .
L: You actually heard that. What time did they say this? What year?
J: This was during the period of time where there was litigation going
between these two litigates.
L: For years Scientology has been saying they canceled the fair game,
they don’t do that anymore, that doesn’t exist, and you actually heard
them call Lawrence Wollersheim and Gerry Armstrong fair game?
J: Yep.
L: Anything else on that, any other people that you heard them..
J: Somebody re-wrote the fair game policy. I remember I was there when
that happened, because the argument being is that, "Yes, there is still
fair game, but public-relations-wise there are some things that are
‘misinterpreted’ in the original policy, so we’ll take them out, but the
meaning is there, what you do to these people who are fair game."
L: Was this altered with L. Ron Hubbard’s approval, or was he dead by
them?
J: I was say he was pretty incoherent by then. That was right around
all the probate time, all of this kind of stuff. I do believe that
Vaughn Young is the person that wrote it, re-wrote it.
L: This is just a little off where you’re going. Do you know about guns
being stored at Scientology?
J: I know that all the security guards, over the booth, they have little
booths built all around the property, and they all have weapons. I know
weapons are stored in gun cabinets down in the main security office, and
I know that they are all weapon trained.
L: So they have weapons in the main security office.
J: And in the booths. Shotguns.
L: Do any of the Scientology executives, like Miscavige or Rath...
J: Every one of them has extensive... I know David Miscavige has at
least 3 or 4 gun cabinets full of all different kind of rifles, hand
guns, this type of thing. Norman Starkey, the same, he even has an
elephant gun there, that just knocks you away. L. Ron Hubbard was
fascinated with guns. Richard Aznaran, his first introduction to doing
something with L. Ron Hubbard that I know of, besides being his personal
secretary, was to be his gun IC. This was to take the extensive amount
of guns he has, which I would say would be over 40, 50 guns and rifles,
and make sure that they’re cleaned, buy new ones. He would go up there
and test them. People in RTC would buy him guns, he would shoot them
and say, "Oh, this is really nice." It was definite gun activity.
L: Were there any military weapons?
J: Yeah. [BOTH TALKING AT ONCE] R-18s, mini-14’s.
L: Uzzi’s, anything like automatic or semi-automatic illegal guns.
J: All of them were semi-automatic that I knew of. I didn’t know of any
fully-automatic weapons. The Uzzi’s, yep.
L: They had Uzzi’s?
J: David Miscavige has an Uzzi.
L: David Miscavige has an Uzzi. Any of the other executives?
J: Mark Yeager had quite an array of guns at the time I was there. Ron
Miscavige, David Miscavige’s younger brother, or older brother…
L: Why did they say they had all these guns? Did they ever make a
comment why they had so many guns?
J: For security.
L: It wasn’t a hobby they were collecting antique guns?
J: Well, it was a dual… No, no, not antique guns. The best
state-of-the-art guns. It was security purposes in case anything ever
happened, they felt protected, because they had their arms, their guns.
It was definitely a personal thing.
L: Do you think if the government was going to go in and arrest David
Miscagive and these top people that they would possibly respond?
J: In a standoff? Yes.
L: In a standoff. So they would respond with guns?
J: Yes.
L: Do you know of any other centers of Scientology that guns or survival
provisions may be stored, their place up in Mendicino, the Mexican
desert, the ranch down in Mexico, or any other places that they’ve set
up as survivalist centers? To flee to, like an escape plan?
J: There was that place in Nevada. Then there was Creston, and then
there’s where CST is located, up in the mountains. I’ve been their once,
and Lord knows, I’ve been there a couple of times, it’s been some years
ago, and Lord knows I couldn’t tell you where it is.
L: California mountains?
J: Yeah, California mountains.
L: Where’s CST is headquartered. Do you think they have weapons there?
J: I know they have weapons there. I’ve been up there shooting weapons
myself. I brought my own weapons there. At the time I had a 45 and a
mini-14. There were plenty of weapons there, we’d go target shooting.
L: When you say target-shooting weapons, are we talking 20 guns?
J: 20, 30 rifles, hand guns.
L: And how many people are out at these locations, for 20 or 30 guns?
400 people?
J: No. I saw like maybe 8.
L: 8 people and 30 guns. Why do they have all those guns up there?
J: I think a lot of them are just guns owned by people, it was very
in-vogue, or faddish to have multiple guns, just have a bunch of guns.
Everybody had lots of guns.
L: Do you know about any escape plan/policy, or evacuation policy for
Sea Org members?
J: No I don’t.
L: Do you know of any for the top executives of Scientology if they
become alarmed?
J: The only thing that I knew about is evacuation of the money, the
Lichtenstein. There were plans in place to make sure that the IRS
wouldn’t get any money or no one else. They had several banks that they
at that time, researched, that would be outside of the United States’
jurisdiction, and the money could go there.
L: Do they keep guns on the ship of the Flag land base?
J: Yep.
L: Other than in the security office?
J: I know normally the executives all have guns.
L: All of the senior executives, in their rooms?
J: Yep.
L: Would these senior executives, if they were challenged… What would
cause Scientology to respond in a… from your being inside Scientology,
what outside threat would throw them into a violent reaction, if that
could happen? What do you think would do that?
J: Like if people in Army uniforms or something like that showed up and
stormed the gates or something like that.
L: Do you think they would go for their guns?
J: Yes. I think there would be a standoff.
L: OK. Have you ever seen or heard or a directive by any of the
executives that if we are, if the government tries to forcibly enter any
of our centers that we’ll fight back.
J: No.
L: Never a comment ever made at any meetings or anything like that,
nothing in writing. Is there anything in policies that would imply that
the Sea Org members, this is the paramilitary group, would do that? Have
you ever…
J: They are bound to protect L. Ron Hubbard’s interests above their own
life. So, yeah, I think you have the zealots, sure.
L: Do you know of any secret storage areas in Scientology where records
are stored, or food may be stored, or money may be stored? Have you ever
heard?
J: Yes, at the Gold Land Base they have a whole survivalist thing going
on where there was food. Canned food was kept in a secret area at the
Gold Land Base. Graham crackers, canned meat, gasoline, spare gasoline.
Big underground tanks of gasoline. Generators, fallout areas, where
people could be at. Yeah.
L: Fallout areas?
J: You know, like concrete.
L: Like a bunker or shelter?
J: Yeah.
L: Underground?
J: Yes.
L: At the Gold Center. The Gold Center is located where?
J: In Hemet, California.
L: At Hemet, California. Did anyone ever say why they had that there?
J: Yeah, in case of a catastrophe.
L: Social, political, environmental.
J: Yeah.
L: Any other storage areas where they store…
J: Well, they had some but they were in constant transit, they would
just be used for a while and they would change.
L: Keep moving it.
J: Right.
L: What were they storing that they had to keep moving it?
J: Documents, incriminating documents.
L: Is there a place that they still save certain documents that they
can’t destroy that they have to preserve, but they’re incriminating
enough that they keep the storage location secret?
J: I think if anyplace to find those things, I mean they keep it in
transient, away from them, but they also maintain copies on certain
premises. I think the most fruitful source of that would be CST.
L: CST in the California mountains? You mentioned something about
storage shelters, the storage at Gold, and Gold is in Hemet, California?
J: Right.
L: Do you know anything about Scientology storing dangerous chemicals
that could be used in an offensive or defensive manner, anything, any
type of chemical?
J: No I don’t.
L: Do you know anything about any drugs that they would use to
incapacitate or to drug or poison anyone? Any type drugs like that, have
you ever heard about any LSD being use, or pharmaceuticals that could
cause somebody to maybe fall asleep and anything like that?
J: Nope.
L: Let’s go on with the next question.
J: [Reading] "Any abusive action such as copyright or trade mark abuse
taken by Scientology to inhibit religious members or former members, or
to inhibit the freedom of such persons or practices to practice their
freely chosen religion." Again on this point, I think I spoke about
this in relation to David Mayo, in that he was a person that wrote the
majority of all of those NOTs issues and then they were very litigious
against him, in the RICO suit in this that and the other thing.
L: Speaking of David Mayo, so they tried to shut down his religious
reform group, or his religious splinter group because they viewed it as
a competitor?
J: Yes, they did a three pronged attack, they did legal, they did
investigative harassment of things, ODC, CDC, and public relations put
out issues. They go his mailing list, yes I’m remembering this, Bob
Mithoff stole the mailing list.
L: Bob Mithoff stole the mailing list for this reform church.
J: And then took it and started mailing Scientology like covert written
letters to discredit the people you know, David Mayo, and I think his
wife was there, Meril was there for a while. Julie…
L: Through the interstate mails they took a stolen mail list and mailed
letters that made it look like it was David Mayo? Were they trying to
make it look like it was David Mayo’s organization?
J: Yep, always.
L: They were impersonating David Mayo and his organization through
interstate mails. Were they selling anything through interstate mail?
J: No, just dis-information, mis-information. They just turned it and
just started sending, I mean, there was these letters that RTC used to
make up, now you’re making me remember. RTC used to create and finance a
newsletter that was very derogatory to the AAC and publish it to its
mailing list.
L: Hand it out to the stolen mailing list for this reform group?
J: Right. There was a 3-prong attack, there was public relations,
investigations, and legal.
L: How valuable was the mailing list in Scientology?
J: It’s invaluable.
L: Would you say it’s worth more than $100, Scientology mailing lists?
J: Much, much more.
L: How much would say the Scientology mailing list is worth?
J: It’s its lifebreath.
L: Would Scientology value all its mailing lists at more than $100,000?
J: More.
L: A million?
J: Way more than that. However much money they’ve got in the bank,
however much money they will continue to have, that’s the value of their
mailing list.
L: They stole the mailing list from this other organization that may
have been worth, how much do you think their mailing list was?
J: They also were into their financial records, and we knew how much
money they made every day. We knew how much money was paid by who.
L: They’re making $5,000 a week, $10,000 a week?
J: Like $20,000, $30,000.
L: $30,000 a week. What do you think the value of their mailing list
would have been worth, give me an estimate.
J: Couple hundred thousand dollars.
L: So, Bob Mithoff performed a theft in that organization of a document
worth several hundred thousand dollars, which then Scientology created a
program…
J: A newsletter and a program.
L: ...and then started sending fraudulent material to that list,
interstate throughout the United States and possibly even foreign
countries.
J: Yeah, because Robert Scott used to get the stuff to Steve and Mau
Belmain [?],
L: Bob Mithoff, what is his post in Scientology?
J: He didn’t have a post, he was just strictly under cover.
L: Did he ever hold a post?
J: Oh yeah, he used to be a staff at the Celebrity Center.
L: What’s his post now, do you have any idea?
J: I have no idea.
L: Speaking of Mayo, David Mayo wound up with drug charges in the
Dominican Republic. From what I understand, that may or may not be
correct, that someone planted drugs on him in the Dominican Republic.
J: I remember an incident when David Mayo was stopped and strip-searched
or something, had something to do with drugs. Yeah, that was a direct
result of some things that Jeff Schriver was doing, who was running PIs
in to create calamity, to make it look like he had drugs. How did he
describe it. He said, "Well, these people down here will do anything,
these Mexican people. You give them a little money. When David Mayo
gets to that gate, he’s going to have a big shock." Yeah, he was
actually detained, I think, for a whole day or something. That was
totally orchestrated by the Invest person represented in the Religious
Technology Center that happened to David Mayo.
L: That person’s name was?
J: Jeff Schriver.
L: He was running what private investigators?
J: It would be hard to say. Someone from Gene Ingram’s office. Because
Gene Ingram is the guy that says, you can use this one, you can use that
one.
L: He allocated people from Ingram’s office.
J: Right. And then there’s a network of where they are, how they help
each. This was in Mexico. Through that network we got some serious
criminal activities going.
L: Through Mexico?
J: I believe it was the Mexican government, the Mexico area.
L: Mexico area. In other words Ingram’s people hired someone in Mexico..
J: You’re making me remember something, some person getting the shit
beat out of them because of PIs. Some kind of magical person, and I seen
his name recently, that they said was a squirrel, and he got the living
crap beat out of him. He was a homosexual, too. That was also done. I’ve
seen the names in these documents.
L: OK. This was when you were in the investigation loop of Scientology.
J: Yes.
L: So they would come across your desk?
J: Yeah.
L: And you would destroy the documents?
J: Right.
L: Let me just go back to this thing. Scientology PIs, do you know
which PI, was it’s Ingram’s firm?
J: It had to do with Ingram’s firm, or a network firm.
L: Ingram’s firm arranged to have an individual beat up who was a
squirrel, who was trying to set up a religious reform…
J: He was kind of an opinion leader kind of person because he was
professed to have certain magical abilities, to do something.
L: Hal Putoff, or the people up at Stanford Research Center?
J: No, it was a Mexican man, and he was very popular down there.
L: So they arranged to have him beat up in Mexico.
J: Right.
L: Anyone else in this venue?
J: Well, John Nelson, you know as I mentioned, when he was over in the
Far East.
L: They tried to set him up on drug charges, and they stopped because
they thought he would blab to crimes before he was arrested and killed
for possession of drugs in Malaya. We were talking about David Mayo,
any other things that were done to David Mayo that were arranged that
was criminal acts?
J: Well, systematic public relations campaign was done and sent to that
stolen mailing list. Also agents or staff members would go out and pass
out things, demonstrate around the AAC, this kind of thing. Similar to
what they still do. Talk about the person’s preclear folder information.
L: They divulge the confidential confessions that David Mayo and Julie
Mayo in their program to destroy these religious reformers.
J: Right.
L: OK. Let’s keep going on the list, and we’ll come back.
J: [Reading] "Have you experienced any of the following mental or
emotional symptoms while in Scientology, or since you left?" For me, I
know it’s been…
L: We’ll do this selection privately.
J: [Reading] "Any celebrities in our out of Scientology who have had
similar symptoms or experiences?" I mentioned about Tom Cruise after he
finished OT III. I mentioned about John Travolta, I think that pretty
much covers it. [Reading] "11. Any persons who were baby-watchers
subjected to isolation orders because they because psychotic or
suicidal." I think we covered that pretty much yesterday. [Reading]
"13. Any Scientology related coercion to induce an already weakened or
infirm persons to buy dangerous additional Scientology services, commit
suicide, or speed their own deaths by abandoning normal medical
practices for economic conveniences or security or political reasons."
I think we covered that yesterday.
L: There’s been a large debate whether Scientology would have told Steve
Fishman, are you familiar with Steve Fishman? I’ll tell you what
happened, and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of anything like this.
Steve Fishman claims that when he got caught doing this stock fraud,
that he was giving Scientology hundreds of dollars from his stock fraud,
that he was ordered to do an end of case, to kill himself to protect
Scientology. Have you ever heard of anything like that where a staff
member is told to harm himself to protect Scientology?
J: I think as a general term, that’s something that’s understood,
especially by every Sea Org member that their life is in devotion. You
sign a billion year contract, your life is in devotion of Scientology.
Your physical body is nothing. You come and go again and again, so, I
think that’s a pretty prevalent idea. Whether people are courageous
enough to do that is….I know that starts with introduction to the Sea
Org.
L: You don’t have any information whether that happened with Steve or
anybody else that it’s ever happened to.
J: No I do not.
L: OK, let’s keep going.
J: OK. [Reading] "#18. The names of former GO, OSA auditors, staff or
medical officers who would have had access to information or been
involved in handling of member suicides, attempted suicides, psychoses
or neuroses related to Scientology services." Yeah, person, Martine, a
French woman, I forget her name. She was a medical officer. She was
there for Phoebe, she was there for Diane Morrison, she was there for
that kid who had an aneurysm and died and worked in RTRC as a medical
person.
L: OK. Anybody else that you can think of as we’re talking?
J: No.
L: OK. A few minutes ago we were talking about evacuation plans, and the
other day you mentioned to me a Fran Harris, thought she might be
questioned or arrested.
J: She was sent to Europe.
L: Who sent her to Europe?
J: David Miscavige.
L: Is it the practice of Scientology that if the government, or court is
trying to get a certain member to the witness stand who has damaging
information that they will be ordered to a different country and
transferred away?
J: Right.
L: What was Fran Harris involved in?
J: Criminal reg deals. I mean, she was raping the orgs. They came up
with this idea minimum book stocks. ASI has their stats down, so they
systematically started going through the orgs, sending someone there to
inspect, like they were acting in the exact same capacity as a Religious
Technology Center, or CSI would at the time, of just going in inspecting
the bookstores. Saying, "You don’t have enough books, buy these books
now, cut us a check." On it goes to their weekly state, everybody gets
their weekly commission and we’re all happy.
L: When you say gets their commission, are some of these executives
getting technology on how much money they take out of the organizations?
J: Yes, absolutely.
L: Describe these commissions?
J: Fran Harris got plenty, Ray Willhare got plenty.
L: When you say plenty, how much commission would they receive?
J: Hundred, thousands.
L: Thousands of dollars on these. While the other Sea Org members are
making $20, $30 a month, these two are making thousands on commissions
on forcing books into these organizations. Did these organizations have
a right to refuse to buy?
J: No, they had no right whatsoever. Also, Author Services made
commission as a corporation…
[TAPE ENDED, NOTHING ON OTHER SIDE]