Tape 3, August 25, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince L: 4,5,6,7,8,9. Today is the 25th of August.  This is Lawrence
Wollersheim withJesse Prince.  We’re discussing his years in
Scientology.  Jesse is probably the highest-ranking person to leave
Scientology; at one time you were second in command of all of
Scientology.  As I mention every day, Jesse is all you remember, as
factually as possible, the names of people that were involved in these
situations and nothing more, nothing less. If you don’t know about it,
you don’t know. What we were doing yesterday is we were going through
the suicide list, and we were up to some of these here.  If you could
start with the one that we left off and just start talking about them.
J: I think we ended up on John Peterson.  We spoke about BB Mauer.  Then
about the of case auditing, I added a person named Diane Morrison.
L: Tell us what end of case auditing is and Diane Morrison.
J: End of case auditing basically is when the person is told by an
official in Scientology, a high level therapist, or case supervisor that
there is nothing more that they can do to physically live and they need
to just let go of the body and die. That’s what it is. I did a whole
post [on the Internet] on this Diane Morrison, I went into great detail
about it. I don’t think there’s anything more to add to that.
L: Can you summarize.
J: I’ll just say the event. I’ll just say what happened. This is a staff
member that had been on staff for at least 10 years. She was a very
healthy woman, kind of a California girl type of person, always was very
healthy. She married a fellow named Shawn Morrison, who was the port
captain at Gilman Hot Springs, which is basically a public relations
position for the surrounding locals. At any rate, this woman ended up
having cancer, and it was, you know, Scientology doesn’t believe in
chemotherapy or anything like that. They actually have policy letters
against gamma rays, this is a severely antiquated idea, they don’t move
with modern technology. So, this woman was encouraged to not get the
standard treatment available to cure cancer.
L: Do you think financial considerations were any part of it?
J: Probably the very first. I say that, I know that’s an opinion, but I
know that every person that gets pregnant at Gilman Hot Springs are sent
to the city of Riverside, or California to stand in a welfare line to
get an abortion paid for. They are told to give, there’s a little pack
that they read so that they know to disassociate themselves from
Scientology and the Sea Org as much as possible, so that it's not known
where they’re coming from. They give as little information as possible
to receive an abortion. They won’t even pay for the abortions of the
women, even though they enforce them medically. They don’t spend a lot
of money on the staff members.
L: Do you mean that there is a written pack of materials in Scientology
that they give to the staff members to go have their medical services
paid for by the state?
J: Right.
L: And in this pack it tells them to hide their association with
Scientology, to defraud the government out of medical costs that should
be paid by this organizations that’s bringing in hundreds of millions a
year, and has these staff members that it should be taking care of their
medical care as part of their overall care?
J: Right.
L: Has this been a long-term practice of Scientology?
J: Yes it has. Even for a toothache sometimes you have to wait for weeks
to get a mere $50 to go and get some dental work, or $150. Very often
staff suffer in pain. I know it happened to me, I had an abscessed
tooth, I had to wait about 2 weeks to have money to be able to go to a
dentist, just to get that taken care of. Suffering with medical illness
is a common thing for a staff member in Scientology. They have their
policies, called CSW, Completed Staff Ward, where the person has to do
all of this research and everything about their illness or whatever they
need with quotes, etc. on and on before money consideration will be
given to them to treat a medical situation.  However, sometimes a person
is just so besides themselves in pain, or just simply depressed, or no
will to pursue the arduous course just to get some medical treatment
that they’ll often go neglected, and a more serious situation will
develop. That is the normal procedure for medical attention to staff
members in the Sea Org.
L: Would it be fair to say that over the years, like Scientology claims
it has 13,000 staff members worldwide. Do they do this in other
countries as well, use the government welfare systems to pay medical
bills? Do you have any knowledge about that?
J: I have noted they do it in Copenhagen, I’m not sure they do it in
England, but I know they do it in Copenhagen.
L: Is it possible, over 40 years, with all of these staff members going
to get Medicare or welfare, to cover medical costs, that we could be
talking about thousands of dollars of fraud on the government welfare.
J: Hundreds of thousands of dollars of fraud.
L: Possibly even millions over 40 years, with 13,000.
J: Yeah, yes.
L: You were saying earlier that you thought the main reason that
Scientology denied medical care was because of its cost.
J: Financial cost.
L: So chemotherapy could run $10,000, the chance of a staff member
getting $10,000 for medical care was about… Is there much of a chance
that they would ever see that kind of money?
J: Never. Never, never, never.  I have never seen that amount of money.
As a matter of fact, I had to have an operation when I was there, and
fortunately I was in a high position. It still took me a month, I had a
deviated septum, which I was very vulnerable to allergies and things,
and I actually had to have an operation to have my nose re-broken and
re-set. It cost I think $4,000 and it took me about 2 months to get the
money. And that’s extremely fast, and that is like the exception, simply
because I was in a high position.
L: You were second in command of Scientology.
J: Right, and it still took me 2 months. Had it been anyone else, it
would never be a point of consideration, just like no.  Live with it.
L: So, this woman was denied cancer treatment.
J: There are two names I have to bring up here. Megan Sheilds and Gene
Dink. For the Los Angeles area, these were the two Scientology doctors,
and they would follow Scientology implicitly, in denying medical
treatment to staff members. This Diane Morrison was seeing Megan
Shields, and also Dr. Dink was associated with it. She was given this
end of cycle, where she was basically told by the doctors that she was
riddled by cancer, after running to Mexico and doing some hocus pocus
stuff for whatever, getting some kind of cancer treatment. She went down
there a couple of times, that there was nothing she could do, and she
was going to die. She needed to this end of cycle. The woman ended up
not dying from the cancer itself, but she died from starving herself to
death. They watched her, and I seen her turn to skin and bones, and
then, they didn’t want her to die at Golden Era. They forced this guy,
Shawn Morrison, to take Diane Morrison to his mother’s house where she
was placed underneath an air conditioner. She died within a couple of
days, from starvation.
L: So here they have a long term staff member who’s given them 10 years
of their life, and they didn’t even want the person to die on the
grounds of the church because…
J: It would raise suspicion.
L: It would raise suspicion. Would it be legitimate suspicion?
J: Of course, they sat and told the person to die and watched her kill
herself with stony faces and told her she was doing the right thing.
L: This Gene Dink and Megan Shields, were they aware of the fraud on the
welfare department? Did they ever participate or have any knowledge of
sending people to the welfare, or sending people to Medicare to deny
they were associated with Scientology to receive free treatment?
J: I have no direct knowledge of that, but I do believe that could be
the case. I have no direct knowledge, and I’ll just say that.
L: Were these doctors, were they following the medical guidelines of
their profession when they told this person that they had to get ready
to die, or were they following possibly directions from Scientology?
J: Directions from Scientology.
L: Who was giving them orders?
J: Probably the case supervisors, which probably… Ray Mithoff or some
other person like that was over this Diane Morrison, as a case handler.
L: In other words, the case supervisors in Scientology were telling the
doctors when to dispense additional medicine and when not to?
J: They would more specifically, tell them what types of medicine they
could dispense, or how often, or how much.
L: What therapies to use?
J: Yes, what therapies to use.
L: What qualifications did these case supervisors have to make
medication and medical therapy to allow or deny these…  that then these
doctors would follow the directions of the case supervisors, and not
their own medical training?
J: None whatsoever, none whatsoever.  Classic case in point, <a href="http://www.lisamcpherson.com/" target="_blank">Lisa McPherson</a> . She has trouble. She apparently goes psychotic, instead of
taking her to a place where there are trained professionals to help her,
and to give her the medicine that she needs, they take her, lock her up
in a room, put her under guard, pass notes.  Next thing you know, she’s
dead. Those are all instructions that people in Scientology are trained
to do, to deny proper medical treatment and people end up dead.
L: Do you know any other end of case situations, where people were told
"get ready to die"?
J: There is a fellow that had something wrong, I think he had an
aneurysm or something wrong with his head. I do not remember his name.
He was at the Gold Base. I noted that happened to him, right as he was
dying, he was told to do that. The next thing you know he was dead. Now,
they didn’t know what was wrong with him. I think he had an aneurysm, I
know he was in extreme pain. But I know for sure that he was not taken
to a qualified hospital so that he could be examined when he first
started to complain about having bad symptoms or headaches.  It was just
take your cal-mag and shut up. Take you vitamins, get your [?] run-down,
next thing you know his head blows up and he’s dead.
L: Do you know of any situations where people have died in any
organization and their bodies were removed from the organization to make
it look like they didn’t die, whether of natural causes, so the coroner,
or whoever would be going to another location, away from Scientology to
examine the body and determine the cause of death?
J: The only one that I have specific knowledge of at this time that I
recall is Diane Morrison.
L: Let’s keep going with the next person.
J: I think that’s the end of that list.  Margery Wakefield, I made a
note of this because I just remember hearing Marty Rathbun saying
Margery Wakefield, this, Margery Wakefield that.  It’s not a case I was
involved in or familiar with, but I was just curious myself of what it
was all about.
L: You never heard any more than that?
J: No.
L: Margie went psychotic and I’ll let you read her story, you can read
it personally and see what happened, we have her affidavit.
J: What I recall is Marty just trying to discredit her as already being
a crazy person in a meeting, I’ll read that and then we’ll come back to
that. The next one I have down here is [reading] "Reverse auditing was
done on Arthur Running Bear.  He did become psychotic from the
auditing." I make this note because I know Arthur Running Bear.  He was
in RPF in the 70’s, late 70’s. I remember being told that something was
wrong with him. He was kinda off. He was a little crazy, and that he was
being audited. At that time, I mean, I’m talking 1978, ’79, to change
his mind about some things, I don’t know. What I got from that was that
he was a cultural person, with Indian cultural beliefs, and because he
was that way, he was considered to be odd and strange, and needed to be
worked on to change his ideas about spirituality, the role of Native
Americans, and this kind of thing. In all honesty, looking back on it
now, they were just straight prejudiced against him, could not stand
that he was anything besides an American straight blue-eyed white
person, and felt that they needed to do a bunch of work on him to make
him like they were.
L: Did you ever hear anything about him being reverse audited?
J: No, but I know he got a lot of auditing to change him. Whether or not
we’re talking semantics is just another point.
L: Have you ever heard of anyone in Scientology talking about reverse
auditing someone to drive them crazy if they were a security risk, or to
cripple someone psychologically so that they really were non-functional,
that might be a threat to the organization? Have you ever heard anyone
talk about reverse auditing, or deliberately using psychological
techniques to eliminate some problem?
J: The only thing I can think of in relation to that was this roll back
thing, that they practice in Scientology.
L: Roll back, what’s roll back?
J: Roll back is a process that I used to get daily dispatches on it from
L. Ron Hubbard.  What it was is a process to catch a spy within the
organization. If you were having problems, or not doing exactly what you
were told, you could be subjected to this roll back procedure, where
they mention Sirhan Sirhan in this, where what is it? Somebody in the
organization is saying something like a plant, and people who have duped
by other people. So they get on a meter and do all of this fool around,
to try to find out who’s influencing you, how were you duped away from
what Scientology is telling you to do, as opposed to what you see in
here. Then they go through this whole procedure, boiling it down to a
person. Then that person, quite naturally gets exploded. At that point
he is given intense sec-checking, he is put under stress to do physical
work, to exhaust him. They are also put on a fore-shortened schedule.
L: What do you mean a fore-shortened schedule?
J: Fore-shortened sleep schedule.  Deliberately.
L: Is this to wear down their resistance?
J: And then you have to speak to a master of arms for 4 or 5 hours a day
who is telling how treasonous you are, usurping the organization, and
showing you this and showing you this, and just showing you what a bad
person you are.  It just puts you in a frame of, "Oh my God, I’m just so
far away from what I’m trying to do."  It makes you doubt your whole
self. It basically makes you crazy. I have seen people go psychotic and
go through their type 3 handling and all of this stuff from intense
sleep deprivation, food deprivation, constant harrangment, and the
physical exhaustion of the work that they make you do.
L: This was done on suspected spies in the organization.
J: Or even if you were a dupe.
L: If you were duped by a suspected spy, they would do this to you as
well.
J: Right.
L: Did this happen often. Did you ever hear about the roll back being
used on people.
J: Well, as a matter of fact, and I hate to say this, this is what L.
Ron Hubbard piloted with me, when I was there. He would send me, he was
telling me "I’m having this idea, there’s some spies in your
organization…."  He gave some theory about these things and then he said
this is what I want you to do. It started out with just a 2-question
thing, and I’d send the results back.
L: Were you doing the processes, were you doing them on someone else?
J: I was the one asking the questions.  First it turned out to be a
2-question process. Then all of this investigation roll back, on and on
and on. Then he came out with this, he said, "Ok, now we’re going to
check for evil purposes."  Then you would have to put a person on a
E-meter and ask them about their evil purposes.  What is that, what is
that?  You had to get it from them.  Whether or not a person had one, or
whatever, it was just made up, it was mind-altering coercive.  "I must
be evil, now I’m being asked for evil purposes, now they must be
there."  By the time you’re finished with that evil purpose rundown, you
really don’t know, you have no more values, no more foundation, from
thought to even spring from this like, look at this now, look how crazy
I am now.
L: Were you ever instructed, when you were auditing people on the evil
purpose rundown, to just keep at it until you got them to tell an evil
purpose.
J: Oh absolutely, by L. Ron Hubbard, sure.
L: If they said they didn’t have one, and the meter didn’t read on one,
then you would keep asking them?
J: I would have to let them know again what an evil purpose…go over all
the definitions.  Then if I couldn’t get them to spit out one
specifically about this specific question, then I would have them to
give one so similar and just word it a little different. It would be
them, yeah.
L: You would keep working, even if they would say they didn’t have any
evil purpose. What if the meter didn’t respond?
J: You know, it’s all hypothetical with the meter, because what is the
meter besides nothing. It reads randomly anyway.  99.99 times it’s going
to do something anyway, because that’s the way it’s set up.  It’s going
to stop, it’s going to jerk, it’s going to do something. If you keep
badgering a person it’s going to do something. The meter, that’s
nothing.
L: What’s the next thing on the list?
J: Something about the kids. Well, what I’ve seen with the kids that’s
scary to me is that children that do survive the forced abortion rule,
the ones that lived in the LA area, those children are born, and instead
of given milk or you know, breast feeding them, L. Ron Hubbard figured
out this barley formula that the children drink instead of milk.  Just
looking at it now, those children were so under-nourished, just not
whole, complete children, because L. Ron Hubbard figures barley water is
better than milk.  This is what these children, some solution of barley
soaked in water and poured over it, that’s what they had.  I’ve seen
those children, 15 to 20 of them in a filthy room, filthy carpet, food
everywhere, and playing. If one of them got out of line, they’d just
lock them in a room and let them scream itself to death, or scream
itself to sleep.  They’re just started out from the beginning to be
cadets, like little cadet children. They’re put in this thing, the
little cadet organ. They make them do what’s called rocks and shows,
where if they do something that they weren’t told to do, they have to do
sit-ups, push-ups from the cradle they are punished.  From the cradle
the children are punished.
L: How are they rewarded?
J: They would have 15 extra minutes to play. Never clothes, never a
thing to have, just like a tiny bit more freedom, a little extra food,
maybe an ice cream.
L: Were any of the women that were…
J: And the parents don’t get a chance to see the children but an hour a
day. An hour a day because they’re working on their posts, by the time
they get home the children are in bed. So if they’re lucky in a week
maybe they’ve seen them maybe 4 or 5 hours. The children are basically
neglected, turned over to these nannies who are giving them barley and
raising the children. The children have no concept of parents and family
and unity. It’s all Scientology. It is just pitiful, it’s pitiful. It’s
horrifying.
L: Were any of these women that were told to get abortions, were any of
them past 3 months pregnant?
J: I don’t know, I can’t say.
L: Let’s keep going on.
J: [Reading] "FACT sources describe a young guy who tried to commit
suicide in early 1992 at the Gold Scientology Center. He was in his
teens or early 20’s. He was the junior of a guy named Olf, who was a
foreigner, maybe from Sweden. This guy was in the mixing group with the
sound people. He had brown hair, pudgy and boyish looking. Something
happened to cause him to attempt suicide at the Gold Center." This
person’s name is Seth Thomas.  He has blonde hair. His mother was Susie,
Sue Price.
L: The Sue Price?
J: The Sue Price was his mother.
L: The Sue Price who does the copyrights for Scientology?
J: I don’t know what she does now, she was always a management program.
She was married to a fellow named Bill Price, who was the Flag banking
officer in the Flag org.  Seth was another child from an earlier
marriage.  He grew up in the cadet org, he was just a completely
depressed illiterate child.  He wouldn’t spell, he couldn’t write, he
couldn’t read that well, and he was almost 20 years old.
L: Isn’t Scientology the group that says it has this great study
technology that it wants to get in all the schools and it will raise IQ.
This was a kid that was subject to the study technology and the best of
Scientology education for 20 years, and he can’t read?
J: Couldn’t hardly read, couldn’t hardly write. I mean write like a kid,
letters not even in the lines. Seth Thomas. Instead of writing, he would
print. It was just pathetic.  Everyone made fun of him, Rick Crusin
makes fun of him, screams at him at the tops of his lungs, slaps him in
the back of the head. Olf, this guy from Sweden, tells him how dumb he
is, laughs at him. Then he said, you have to do key to life because
you’re so stupid. This little kid was the brunt of everything. Now at
this time I was working in there, this is after I’m removed, and now
wherever they go I have to go with them. We’re on the sound. If they
went on an event they’re dragging me every where.
L: He was being harassed because he wasn’t performing up to Scientology
standards?
J: Right. And he was illiterate and slow, and extremely depressed. This
happened just when I was leaving.
L: Did people know that he was depressed?
J: Yep.
L: Did he ever threaten that he was suicidal?
J: Yes he did that when I was there.
L: How did they handle it when he said that he was suicidal?
J: Sent him to ethics, to do conditions and this that and the other
thing.  It didn’t change, he was just a still pitiful pathetic child.
L: Was he ever physically beaten?
J: Physically slapped around, pushed and stuff, yes.
L: Was that normal?
J: For him, yeah, because he was like the whipping boy, the kicking boy.

L: What do you think caused him, do you have any idea what caused his
suicide?
J: I think, he spoke to me about it, he felt hopeless, he felt like no
one loved him.  He felt like he would never do anything in life because
he was as old as he was and still could hardly read and write.  I’ve had
conversations with this kid.
L: And then he killed himself.
J: Well, he attempted suicide, threatened suicide.
L: And then he attempted it, and finally something happened to him after
that. Do you know what happened to him after that?
J: I heard, and this is only a rumor, that he was quickly gotten off the
Int base and put in LA to be put down there to be in the cadet org down
there, which he preferred, because he hated being up there at Gilman Hot
Springs because of the way he was treated. He hated it.
L: Physical punishment, have you ever seen anyone physically punished,
hit, slapped?
J: Yes.
L: Can you describe who…
J: David Miscavige got upset with Marty because he wasn’t following some
order and took a stack of folders like this, hit him in the head, then
physically grabbed him and started slamming him against the walls and
punching him as hard as he could.
L: Punching him, in the body?
J: Yeah, and in the face.
L: As hard as he could.
J: I’ve also seen him take women and throw them around. Terry Gamboa.
Physically slam them into a wall. Marian Bender, another one. These
women would come to me shaking and crying, like, "Oh God, somebody make
him stop."
L: He physically assaulted women?
J: Yes.
L: Did he ever slap them other than throwing them up against the wall,
hit them with a fist?
J: I think just throwing them up against the wall. Grabbed their ass,
just anything to degrade them.
L: Have you ever seen any other staff member hit, beaten, whipped,
anything like that by any other staff member in Scientology?
J: Yeah, John Ward. I saw David Miscavige spit in his face, punch him,
slap him.
L: Literally spit?
J: Spit in his face.  And he was held by others, Sea Org members.
L: Several other Sea Org members?
J: Like two on each arm, while he spit and punched and hit him.
L: Where did he punch him?
J: In the body.
L: Why was Miscavige doing this?
J: Because he said he was a traitor and treasonous to the Sea Org.  He
went the route out, said to hell with this.  He was under that 11 man
ComED [?] where they brought them, made them run around and pose and
just degraded incessantly and then put them on Happy Valley on armed
guard and all of this crap.
L: Anyone else you’ve ever seen beaten or hit, assaulted in Scientology?

J: There was another little guy named John who wore glasses, little
mustache. He was brought in front of David Miscavige and he spit in his
face too and slapped him around.
L: Physically slapped him in the face?
J: Yeah, spit running off these people’s face. A heavy spitting period,
this is late ’82.
L: Have you ever seen anyone else other than David Miscavige assault or
hit or punish physically, harm another staff member?
J: Besides him, I’d have to say no.
L: Let’s go on with the next one.
J: So we were talking about Seth, that’s what I know about little Seth.
Cat Morrow.  I remember her.
L: Rick Clinger’s wife, Cat Clinger is her real name.
J: She wasn’t his wife at this time, he was married to someone else.
Her name was Cat Morrow when I was there.  She was the head of the Wolly
unit, Wolly World, data collection.  They called it Wolly World.  She
was under extreme pressure at a point in time where she wasn’t sleeping,
she wasn’t eating, she was being screamed at 60% of the day, just
working day and night, and she flipped. At which point, you know, it
seems like people do just go to a certain point and it’s not like you
can say, I’m sorry, let’s go to bed now. No, they don’t sleep anymore,
they are over the edge. She got the standard treatment of being locked
up in a room by herself to scream and just do everything. No restraint,
physically.
L: They physically locked her up when she went psychotic?
J: Yeah.  They hold you under guard when that happens.
L: Against your will?
J: Absolutely. Just like <a href="http://www.lisamcpherson.com/" target="_blank">Lisa McPherson</a> , the standard practice. You are
incarcerated at that point, and you’re not going to be un-incarcarated
until they think you’re OK.
L: So is that all you know about Cat, that she was locked up?  Do you
know of other people that were locked up, who went psychotic against
their will?
J: Yes, well one person that Stacy Young and I had to watch a girl named
Teresa, we were watching her together.
L: Teresa, what was her last name?
J: I don’t know her last name. She was a staff member at Gold. There was
some big deadline about getting up a new Mark 7, and she was a Spanish
girl, a cultural girl. She had skin pretty much the color of mine, black
hair, very pretty girl, young girl, about 19 or 20. She was made to stay
up day and night, soldering wires and crap to the e-meter, like on
assembly. She started to loose it.  The higher RC was saying she’s out
ethics, she’s making overt products, that’s why. Then the next thing you
know, this girl is speaking and in a place so different than anyone
else. She’s gone over the edge, she’s babbling. She’s talking all out of
her head. They immediately took her from the Hemet base and put her in
Happy Valley, which is a little compound that they have where the
children stay, it’s by an Indian reservation. My God, talk about first
hand experience. Stacy and I and that girl Susie Watson Taylor and a
couple of guys, it was like 5 of us watching this girl, keeping her
confined to a house. One time she got out of the house and there was
this huge cactus out in the yard, and she pulled with her bare hand, one
of the leaves off, threw it on the ground, and jumped up and down on the
damn thing. I mean, her body was pierced everywhere. She didn’t feel a
thing, she was laughing. I along with a bunch of other people, pulled
the thorns out of her, put hydrogen peroxide on her, and she had a
fever, but still would not sleep, would not sleep. This went on for
about 3 days. Then she started getting little cat naps. Now, I am so
worried, because this woman is talking in voices. She hit me harder than
I think I’ve ever been hit in my life, and now here comes Dr. Dink out
there. He has five of us hold her down and he gives her a shot, to make
her go to sleep. Her last words is, before she goes under, she looks me
right in the eyes and says, "I’m not going to forget you for this Jesse,
I’m going to get you." And she conks out. Me of all people. Everyone
watched her, she ways this to me.  Well, she slept for 2 hours and she
was right the hell back up. They tried to give her pills and all of this
stuff. Anyway, to make a long story short, it took about a month and a
half for this woman to start sleeping again, and then making her eat
again. She was getting introspection run down, passing notes back and
forth to the case supervisor. She says she wants to go, no one will let
her go.
L: She said she wanted to leave, they wouldn’t let her out?
J: No.
L: Did Dink know she had gone psychotic?
J: Yes, that’ why he was out there giving her a shot. We were worried
that she was going to die because she wasn’t sleeping, and was getting
wilder and wilder and wilder. She ran off and just ran up a damn
mountain. No one could even follow her. She was running faster than the
dogs.
L: They have dogs out there, chasing…
J: No, just dogs hanging around, ranch dogs. Dogs couldn’t even keep up
with her. This woman had super-human strength.
L: She was psychotic?
J: Completely, utterly, totally.
L: Were they worried about the woman or were they worried that the
Riverside police might come onto the compound?
J: It goes beyond that, her parents were calling, wanting to know where
her daughter is.
L: Were they lying to the parents?
J: Yes.
L: The parents were worried and they were lying.
J: She’s fine, she’s just been working too hard, she’s just taking a
break. Wouldn’t let the parents talk to her, but then, after a while,
she was allowed to call her parents. She was told what the hell to say.
L: She was told what to tell them?
J: Yeah.
L: So she was held against her will, her parents were lied to, this was
in Riverside County, and Dink knew that she was being held against her
will when he administered the shots to her?
J: Right.
L: Did Dink, did you ever hear of Dink going to anyone else who was
being held against his will and giving them medication of any kind,
anyone that was in a psychotic state or locked up?
J: No, that’s the only one that I personally was a witness to.
L: Let’s go on, unless there’s more to that.
J: The girl finally came to herself a little better, she was immediately
sent away.  Stacy could give you a statement, because we were doing this
with the girl together.  [Reading] "Tom Cruise, he actually became
psychotic during auditing. Cruise was on OT III and Scientology had to
bring him back to the base because he looked so bad." This is what I
know about Tom Cruise.  He was brought into Scientology and went into
great detail about all the trappings of yesterday.  This is what I
recall about this thing that you mention. He got onto OT III and he had
black circles under his eyes. He was like pretty screwed up, pretty
screwed up. I mean nothing was making sense. He had these sound people
on the set of Days of Thunder, feeding his ego, telling him how horrible
everybody else was. He was having difficulty with some of the movie
people.  Rob Howard ended up coming out to the Int [?] base.  He wasn’t
impressed at all.  He came once and never came back again that I know
of.  It was very strange, at this time that Tom Cruise was screwing
around with Scientology.  After OT III he just got that pasty skin and
that foolish look.  He didn’t want to come back, he didn’t want to screw
around with any more.  He just wanted Scientology to be away from him.
He wanted to do no more auditing, just nothing with any of that stuff,
just go back to Hollywood and his home.
L: He wanted to leave Scientology?
J: Of course they really, oh, a horrible thing, someone gave you a wrong
command or something. Something gets exploded at the base because he’s
nuts now. Of course they made him nuts. He was taken off any kind of
real heavy auditing, and just let’s have some fruit, let’s get exercise,
come to the exercise room, let’s play basket ball, let’s do this. I was
leaving as that was going on, this is ’92.  This is when I’m leaving,
I’m leaving and this is going on.
L: Do you know of any celebrities that have gone psychotic with
Scientology auditing, who just went nuts?
J: John Travolta.
L: Do you know any more about that?
J: Well, it’s happened several times.
L: He’s gone psychotic several times during Scientology auditing?
J: Yes, just a fit, throwing a fit, wanting nothing else to do with
Scientology, and then they’d go and get him again.  Two times that I
know of, once this was when that movie Saturday Night Fever came out,
and he was good friends with Spanky Taylor. Suddenly she disappeared
pregnant with her child, now in RPF crying all the time. That was a
person that he wanted to have contact with in relationship in
Scientology. They tricked him and told him "If you bring the movie so
that all the base orgs can see it, and make an appearance, specifically
for the RPF, that they will let him see Spanky. Of course he did all of
that and they didn’t let him see Spanky.  He just went nuts, he threw a
damn fit.  He’s actually the one, Spanky’s secretary is the one that
actually saved Spanky from Scientology. There was a period of time where
John wanted nothing to do with Scientology, he was happy that Spanky was
safe. But they still had control of Spanky to use her to keep him going.
That was one time.  Another time he was having a relationship with
another homosexual man and said he was going to marry the man. Oh my
God…
L: Was that Mark Baracy?
J: I don’t know which one it was, there’s been more than one. His was
back in ’81, I believe it was. Oh my God, now he’s a homosexual, now
he’s a fit to be tied, because he’s done with Scientology. If they can’t
handle that he’s homosexual, too damn bad. So now people, auditors and
CSs are going out to his place, where he lived in Florida, where he had
the landing strip, just staying with him weeks at a time, trying to
re-convert him.
L: Just talking him into it, pressuring him?
J: Right.
L: Do you think these celebrities have the feeling that they…
J: They can’t live without Scientology. The ones that are deeply into
it, they think that they’ve got to have it.
L: Do you think any of them are concerned that all of their confessions
are in the hands of Scientology?
J: I think every one of them are.
L: What makes you think that?
J: Because the instant, whether you’re a celebrity or anyone, you start
screwing up, they start pulling out what you say in your files.
L: Do you think they’ve done this to any of the celebrities?
J: I think they’ve done it to every one of them.
L: What would make you believe that?
J: Because that’s what they do to control people, it’s part of the
control mechanism. "Hey look, you think the reason you could be having
trouble in auditing," and this is done in a very slick kind of fashion,
"well, you’re doing this this and this, and that’s kind of immoral and
wrong, isn’t it? Oh, let’s talk about this."  Do you see what I mean.
L: So the reason you want to leave is because of all these things that
you’re doing in your life that aren’t right, and that’s why your
auditing isn’t working, which sends a signal to the celebrities that we
know what you’re doing is illegal..
J: We have it written up real nice, we even show it to you.  You see
these things, you see, that has impact which I’ve since come to know,
especially from that damn deposition I was just in.  It has impact.
L: Besides Travolta, has Kirstie Alley, or Mimi Rogers, or any of the
other celebrities that you know of have any of them gone psychotic,
or...
J: I know Priscilla Presley was on the edge.  They were having her…
L: Did she ever want to leave Scientology, have nothing to do with it?
J: I think she’s done it.
L: She’s left it a couple of times, and they go and bring her back.  Do
you think they use well, you already answered that.
J: They use the bad points and they say, well, you’re still having
trouble, let us help you.  What you are doing is bad, it’s that whole
thing of we’re going to make you perfect, which is, we are going to use
your imperfection to control you utterly, totally, completely.
L: So you think they’re using what they know in the PC folders and tell
them the reason that you’re not happy with Scientology is because of
these crimes and other activities over here, and we can help you fix
that.
J: Right.  And you need to do something about that anyway, because you
could be in trouble.  Do you know what I mean?
L: Do you think the celeberities know that Scientology might… if they
turn against Scientology, do you think these celebrities know that their
confessions would be used against them?  Do you think that’s…
J: I think they have a pretty good damn idea.  Because celebrities know
what happens to ex-members.
L: They do know?
J: Oh hell yes, the SP declares. Rundown of everything a person
basically has said in his auditing or in confidence trying to get help
now, it’s probably published, this person is a sexual deviant, he’s a
this, he’s a that, he’s done this. Yes, they see that. They are told,
don’t mess with these people, you see how evil they are.  They read
these things, and they say, "Well hell, I’ve done this and I’ve done
this too." I could see my name being on this piece of paper someday.
L: What’s the next thing on there?
J: John and Diane Colletto, I’ve spoken extensively about it. [Reading]
"Annie Broeker, CSed Annie Broeker had a psychotic breakdown during
auditing.  When last this staff member saw Annie Broeker she was being
audited quite a bit, she remembers a lot of screaming, yelling coming."
Annie Broeker, I just seen this woman tormented, tormented. First they
broke up her marriage with Pat Broeker, made him out to be the complete
villain, got rid of him. She stayed in the church; she goes from trying
to stop some of this madness that goes on by David Miscavige to being in
complete submission to him. And then, the last I heard about here, they
separated her second marriage, she married to another person..
L: They literally tell he to separate?
J: Yeah, he’s got to go, he’s no good.
L: They break up the marriage?
J: They break up the marriage, they did it two times.
L: They give her an order.
J: Yeah, they give her an order, and then last person.  His name was
Jim, what was his last name..  He was in musician’s unit with David
Miscavige’s father, and he hated Ron Miscavige because he thought he was
a little psycho, just like his son, and he never could get along.  He
married Annie Broeker and then they broke up the marriage.  Declared
him, threw him off, threw him away.  Well, he disguised his voice and
all of this other stuff and talked to her, because he knew the phone
numbers.  She blew, flew to Florida, Mark Yeager and Marty Rathbun were
waiting for her in John Travolta’s personal plane, they were there
before her commercial flight landed, and they literally walked her right
onto the airplane and back.
L: Why would they do that?  What knowledge did she have that they were
so…
J: She was with L. Ron Hubbard for the last 5, 6 years on a daily basis,
as a servant.  Washed and bathed him, cooked his food, took his
dictation. Sent his orders from him to the different church
organizations.
L: So she knows the real L. Ron Hubbard. She knows about the will, his
death, the estate…
J: The drugs, the insanity, everything.
L: Do you know where she is now?
J: I believe she’s still at Golden Air Productions.
L: Did they let her leave?
J: No, no, no. They hold her. If she left it would be devastating, and
she’s been trying to go. Oh, so then what they did….
[STOP AND RESUME]
L: OK, who’s next on the list?
J: [Reading] "There is a study about miscarriages and birth deformities
among female Scientology staff members, particularly in certain
divisions of Scientology. This was done because even internally, they
were alarmed at the number of babies being born deformed, with extremely
low rate, and with a lot of difficulties." Well, the common practice for
a woman in Scientology, in the Sea Organization who gets pregnant is
being degraded for number one being pregnant.  They’re put under undue
stress and they’re told that they’re going to still be demanded to
perform their duties, just like they would if they were not pregnant.
Very often these women don’t…
[END OF SIDE OF TAPE]
…They are just known to have miscarriages and the women don’t take care
of themselves, there’s no prenatal care whatsoever, I’ve never seen a
woman have prenatal care.
L: No prenatal care?
J: No, none whatsoever. Never ever seen a pregnant person been allowed
to have any prenatal care.
L: How many pregnant women have you seen at Scientology that you know,
that you don’t believe had any prenatal care?
J: A few, Kathy Rinder, Sue Price, this one that I was telling you
about, Spanky Taylor – damn near lost her baby, it was born at 3 pounds-
Cindy Schafner, when she was pregnant. You don’t go to a doctor, you
don’t do nothing.
L: Why no prenatal care?
J: Because, I don’t think they want to spend the money. I think it’s a
financial issue. It’s like the person is already doing a bad thing, why
throw money at the bad is the thought.
L: Continue.
J: [Reading] "Don Larson was beaten." I didn’t see this happen, but I
know him. I don’t doubt that he was beaten. [Reading] "Ron Miscavige OT
7, married to Loretta Miscavige, an auditor and nurse, suffers deep
depression from behind closed doors. He seems happy and jovial, and the
ideal Scientology care, but he suffers quite a bit from depression."  I
think this very much is the case. My first association with Ron
Miscavige was after he had been involved in some kind of rape incident
with a young woman. Some very serious Scientology resources went into
containing the situation with his father.
L: What do you mean by serious.
J: Private investigators, lawyers, people talked to the press to make
sure there was no story about it.  A lot of money was exchanged, in
getting his father through that. He was immediately brought to Gold with
the mother, where they were saying they were having marriage problems.
David Miscavige’s idea was to end the marriage, because his mother
didn’t want to be in the Sea Org.  She wanted nothing to do with it.  He
kind of convinced his father he should be in the Sea Org because he’s
getting into too much trouble out there.  As his father decided to join
the Sea Org, his mother didn’t, he arranged for their divorce.
L: David Miscavige arranged his own parents’ divorce?
J: Yes. And his mother, his own mother, from her lips, I heard her say
he was like a little Nazi Hitler, he was like a little Satan. She was
very disgusted with him. She went on ahead and gave the divorce, and
kind of disappeared for a while. Ron Miscavige was very often depressed
and fits of, he would just have fits and start screaming at the top of
his lungs. He would go from way up there to like, "Oh, I can’t do
nothin’, I feel bad, I’m sick, leave me alone, don’t want anybody
around." He was up and down like this, quite regularly. Like he was
seriously unbalanced, which is like a little mirror into his little son.

L: When you said that money was thrown at people to quiet the story of
David Miscavige’s father rape, the rape that he performed on someone…
J: Right.
L: …do you mean that cash was given to silence the rape victim, or to
silence government people, or political investigators? What do you mean,
what’s your knowledge there?
J: My actual knowledge is nothing concrete.  This is who I know who went
to deal with the situation.  David Miscavige himself, Marty Rathbun,
Lyman Spurlock was there, about 5 different attorneys, Larry Heller
being one of them, Shermans were involved with it.  All went down when
it happened, and they went with money, and the intention to make this go
away.
L: Were there criminal charges?
J: Against Ron Miscavige?
L: Yes.
J: I believe there were, but somehow he got out of them.
L: So, the criminal charges were dropped when Scientology and its
lawyers and its money came in?  What county was this in?
J: I don’t know?
L: What state?  Do you remember where the rape occurred?
J: It was in Philly?
L: Philadelphia?  So Ron Miscavige was charged with rape and all the
charges disappeared?
J: Everything about it disappeared, the story, the information about it,
it’s just gone. I mean they stayed up there for about a week.
L: All of them, right? Who paid for this, did the church of Scientology
pay for this?
J: Yes.
L: So, David Miscavige potentially could have written out $30,000
$40,000  $50,000  $100,000 maybe more during this week to change, to get
his father off the rape charges?
J: Right. That’s a certain fact, being that he brought outside people in
there and they had to be paid. So you can at least say just to pay them,
along with all the investigators and the attorneys was that.
L: And the PIs.  What PIs do you know were involved?
J: Ingram was up there.
L: Ingram was up there. What would allow him to pay this money out of
the church.  What if this happened with…Was Ron a member of the Sea Org
at this time?  This was a public person, that David Miscavige was using
the church assets to buy him off a rape charge?
J: Right.
L: Would that, could any other staff member in Scientology write checks
out for public person who got in trouble?
J: That was the one and only time I’ve seen it happen.
L: You said Sherman Lenske, the two brothers there.  What is the role of
Sherman Lenske in Scientology?
J: They, as I recall them specifically, they would arrange to make sure,
or get them advice to make sure that it was covered up, that L. Ron
Hubbards’ authority and control over all corporations was covered up
during the time he was living. They also advised him on certain things
to make LRH not do, and not say. That was also a big discrepancy and
problem, that ended up with the brokers.  His attorneys would limit
LRH’s control more and more. The excuse was "We give you any kind of
money you want, just shut up and take the money and let us run things."
L. Ron Hubbard felt like he was just pushed out of the picture, not that
he shouldn’t have been, because he was pretty damn crazy, and I’m not
justifying one way or the other, but that was the struggle with the
brokers and L. Ron Hubbard. David Miscavige I believe, just forced L.
Ron out of existence.
L: He was just taking control away from Hubbard a little piece at a time
while he was alive?
J: Yeah, and L. Ron Hubbard saw it.  I had to sec-check David Miscavige
on this.  L. Ron Hubbard asked me, "Please find out what is his
intention, what is he doing by making it so I can’t even sent a dispatch
or order anyone to do anything that I normally do."
L: L. Ron Hubbard believed that David Miscavige may be trying to take
over control of Scientology?
J: Yes.
L: And he was worried about it?
J: Yes.
L: He sent you to..
J: ..investigate it.
L: To do a security check, and find out any overts and evil intentions…
J: ...activities that he had been doing.
L: When you sec checked Miscavige on that, did anything come up?
J: Yeah, he was in complete disagreement with L. Ron Hubbard, he was in
complete disagreement with Pat Broeker as to what should happen and when
it should happen. And he was sick of giving them money because he said
they just wasted money.
L: So he was even thinking of cutting L. Ron Hubbard off from money?
J: Right.
L: Let’s talk about Lenskes, the attorneys.
J: These are the attorneys that gave him all of the advice, and worked
with Lyman Spurlock in order to set up the corporations and make them
seem somewhat virgin and dissociated from each other, which effectively
moved L. Ron Hubbard completely out of the picture.
L: Do you believe the Lenskes attorney, Sherman and who else?  What’s
her name?
J: I don’t remember.
L: The Lenskes, this law firm, these two people.  Do you think that they
were aware that they were committing a fraud by hiding the real control
of….
J: I think they knew it implicitly, there was no question.
L: Were you ever at a meeting where they said anything or did anything
that implied that they knew L. Ron Hubbard controlled Scientology, and
they were trying to create a…
J: Absolutely.
L: Can you…
J: I was there when both brothers were there, I’ve been there several
time, 10 times, 15 times. They were regular. When the probate situation
came up, they were the attorneys for that.  They were doing all of the
advising and stuff like that. I was privy to some of those meetings,
which covered many subjects, as opposed to having people running in and
out. At that point in time we were just allowed to stay there and listen
to everything. Yes, they were very much aware of the destruction of the
documents throughout the different Scientology corporations to show no
L. Ron Hubbard control.
L: Did they ever direct that those documents be destroyed to hide from
the government, from the IRS, from anyone who looked at Scientology’s
corporate structure?
J: Yes.  They told David Miscavige in no uncertain terms, "None of these
things, these advises, can be anywhere."
L: So, in essence, destroy this evidence. The attorneys did.
J: Right.
L: The Lenskes, were they aware of the actions of the private
investigators.
J: Very much so.
L: Were you ever sitting in a room where any…
J: I’ll tell you a specific thing that happened.  Marty was bringing up
something about something PIs were doing.  I can’t tell you the
specifics, but I can tell you is this.  Sherman leaned over to Dave and
said, "Look, I don’t want to have this kind of talk around here.  I
don’t know what your security is, I don’t want to be a party to hearing
this stuff.  I know about it, but, not in a room full of people like
this."
L: Marty was talking about illegal operations that private investigators
were doing, and Lenske was sitting there and said…
J: "Woah, wait a minute, I don’t want to be here."
L: Were you ever at another meeting, or any other meeting where the
Lenskes maybe, a smaller group, where any illegal activities were
discussed?
J: Similar situation.  We would all be in a meeting about one thing, and
then we would bring up investigations and who we were going to have do
what, and they would excuse themselves. They didn’t want people seeing
them knowing about this stuff. They very much worked with David and
Lyman, majorly those four, because David would then come in tell us what
Sherman and his little brother, Dan, I think it was, would say, and we
would act on that advice, based on the information they were given about
investigations from like whatever.
L: Do you recall any of the comments that David Miscavige said that the
Lenskes wanted to have happen?
J: Not specifically.
L: Do you believe that the attorneys, there has been theory that the
attorneys control Miscavige, and Miscavige controls Scientology. Did you
ever see anything to make you think that that real control of
Scientology exists with the Hellers and the Lenskes and that they have
enough on Miscavige to take Miscavige out and Miscavige…
J: Yeah, I think there’s definitely that kind of relationship that
exists there, but I think that their hands are so dirty and blood drips
from all their hands that they protect each other.
L: So, they all go down together, and they all survive together?
J: Right.
L: What kind of money do you think these, the Hellers, and the Lenskes
are taken out of Scientology every year?
J: Many millions.
L: Millions of dollars each year?
J: At least when I was there, I can’t speak of what’s been happening
from 1990 to 1998.  I know that during the time I was there, 1982 to
1987, millions.
L: Estimate how many millions might have went to the Lenske firm?
J: 7, 8...
L; 7,8 million. The Heller firm, Larry Heller?
J: I’m sure he made about 4 or 5 million.
L: Were they performing lawsuit duties, or was this…
J: No, they were just acting as counsel. They had other little
attorneys, they would discuss it with Dave, Norman, sometimes. Norman is
just not that bright, he just doesn’t get it. It would majorly be the
CPA, Lyman Spurlock.
L: Do you think that they were being paid for work, or being paid to
just have their piece of Scientology because they had been involved in
some of these activities and everybody has to have their piece of the
pie?
J: It seemed like to me, they had a definite piece of the pie. There
were just so many attorneys in Scientology, all these juniors.  Earl
Cooley never held the position like Heller and the Lenske brothers, he
never rose to that, never, never, never. These were L Ron Hubbard’s
personal attorneys. How useful they are today, I don’t know. They have
probably been retired to a greater or lesser degree because there is
only so much of that people want.
L: Let’s talk about the L. Ron Hubbard estate. Are you aware of any
fraud in the probate or in the getting the Hubbard to sign any kind of
coercion on any Hubbard family member to sign away their rights to the
estate, any threats, any intimidation?
J: Don’t ask me too much at once. What I know about the probate case is
that L. Ron Hubbard, it was being demanded that L. Ron Hubbard appear on
his own behalf.  I know for a fact that everyone, including myself, knew
exactly where he was at all times.  The court was being lied to to say
"We didn’t know where he was." They could have produced him at any time.

L: All the Scientology officials that were swearing out affidavits were
committing perjury?  Were the lawyers aware that they knew where
Scientology was?
J: Yes.
L: So the lawyers, who were the lawyers, Heller, Lenske, these lawyers
were lying to the probate court, having full knowledge that everybody
knew where L. Ron Hubbard was:
J: Right.
L: So they committed the fraud to keep L. Ron Hubbard from appearing?
J: Yeah. And, you got to dig this point.  The reason being is because
David Miscavige and the Lenske brother didn’t think he could stand up to
it. They didn’t think he was stable enough, they thought he was a little
fucking crazy.  I got this straight from David Miscavige.
L: David Miscavige said that he believed L. Ron Hubbard was crazy?
J: Yeah, couldn’t get up to this, and it’d be a mess.
L: That he was not functionally aware enough, or mentally capable
enough?
J: Right, mentally capable of getting through appearing in court.
L: So, Miscavige, you heard this.  Was anyone else in the room when you
heard this.  He said to this to me private.  He said, "Jesse, listen,
you’ve got to grow up, you’ve got to know something, OK? L. Ron
Hubbard’s not ready for this."  He looked me right in the eye.  He said,
"No, we don’t want this happening." Because I asked him.  This is during
the time when he and I were kind of like buddies.  We’d go out and
exercise together, play racket ball and stuff, and he started opening up
to me a little bit.
L: And he said he wasn’t read for it because..
J: He wasn’t mentally stable. He said, "There’s just some things about
L. Ron Hubbard you don’t know."
L: This was in when, what year?
J: 1985, could be ’86.
L: Other things that could be fraud, that you might interpret as fraud
in the Hubbard estate?
J: I know that a big battle was going on at that time between David
Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard, because L. Ron Hubbard thought his hands
were totally tied.  He was trying to go to other people besides David
Miscavige to try to help him continue to have control over the church.
L: That’s when he went to you to do the sec check.  After Hubbard got
the results of the sec check, did you report to L. Ron Hubbard that
David Miscavige disagrees…
J: I reported to Pat Broeker.
L: Did Pat Broeker get that to L. Ron Hubbard?
J: What he did with it, I don’t know, because I never heard that.
L: You never heard if Ron got mad?
J: No, never heard anything about Ron, never even got a thank you, which
was unusual.  Normally when I did things for him I’d get a response.  Or
I’d get a gift, a leather coat, a ring, or something.
L: You’d think that if you had just given him the information that David
Miscavige may be trying to take over the church and cut off his cash,
that Hubbard, generally was known as having an incredible temper…
J: He was having that temper.
L: …would respond in some way.  Did you think it was odd that there was
no response whatsoever?
J: Yeah.
L: Do you have any idea what could have happened?
J: Yeah, he never got the message, or you know, and I just have a theory
that I heard, by that time that he was pretty far gone, and couldn’t
hold a train of thought anyway.
L: Who else told you Hubbard was pretty far gone and couldn’t hold a
train of thought?
J: Rick Aznaran.
L: How would he know that?
J: Because he was there, and the hired farm hands that they had said
that -- Rick Aznaran related this story to me -- that often they would
hear L. Ron Hubbard screaming at BTs late in the night.  He was heavily
medicated with drugs from Dr. Dink like valium, the this the that, and
the other thing.
L: Tranquilizers?
J: Tranquilizers, and then he’s experimenting with drugs, he’s getting
any kind of drug he wants to from Dink.
L: Any possibility of anti-psychotics?
J: Yeah, I do believe he had some of those too.  Rick said there was a
cabinet full of all kind of prescription medicine that you could ever
imagine when they went to where he was an opened his medicine drawer.
He said that amazed him because it’s a strict policy of Scientology not
to take any drugs whatsoever, any kind of medical drugs whatsoever. You
just don’t take them.  And here he had a zillion of them.  I’ve also
since talked to Dennis Erlich who told me about a person who used to
deliver cocaine and marijuana to L. Ron Hubbard, as well as LSD and
other things, and knew him just in passing because Dennis was having an
association with him or something.  They were at some concert together,
because Dennis does concerts.  They got to talking, Dennis mentioned
that he’d been in Scientology, and this person said to him, "Oh, I know
L. Ron Hubbard, I used to bring him his drugs up there in Preston where
he was."
L: Anyone else, at this point in 1985 that you can recall said to you,
that had experience with L. Ron Hubbard, that he was not mentally sound
or coherent, or competent?
J: Pat Broeker kind of gave me that idea.
L: What did he say that made you believe that?
J: He just said, this is just after we did that sect check.  He said,
"Well, I think you did a good job. The old man has a lot on his mind,
and we’re just trying to keep stuff off his lines."  Which is
Scientology jargon, which simply means that he is a little bit tied up
and what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him.
L: Did you hear anybody else besides David Miscavige and Rick Aznaran,
Pat Broeker, imply to you that in 1985 L. Ron Hubbard was mentally
incompetent?
J: Vicky mentioned to me that she had gotten word prior to him dying
that he was sick.  She didn’t know how it was, she just told me she had
talked to Annie, who said he wasn’t doing well.  That’s the beginning
and the end of it.
L: Continue with….
J: Now after he passed, I was there, when Mary Sue Hubbard was made to
sign an agreement, I do believe it was $100,000 to relinquish any kind
of claim on the copyrights, or trademarks, or bank accounts, or anything
to do with the Scientology fortune. I was part of like a 12 or 17 man
team of people that just invaded her house, and was all a pretty cordial
affair.  She didn’t want to sign the damn thing.  Lawyers were there,
David Miscavige started screaming, "You are going to sign it!"
L: He was screaming at her, "You’re going to sign this document"?
J: We were all there, browbeating her
L: 12 to 17 people?
J: Yeah, all in Sea Org uniforms.  All in cars everywhere, just going in
there and overwhelming this poor little old lady.
L: Would u say that you were an intimidating presence?
J: Beyond any question.
L: Would you say that Mary Sue Hubbard was coerced into signing an
agreement?
J: It’s beyond any question.  As well as Arthur, I was there when he
signed it too.  He got $50,000.
L: He got $50,000. Did they have their own lawyers there who looked at
the documents?
J: No, no. They had no representation.  All the Scientology lawyers were
there, and they would just sit down, this is what they lawyers say, sign
here.
L: Were the allowed to read the documents?
J: Yeah, but I don’t think they knew what they were reading.
L: So the Scientology lawyers were there, did they act like they were
representing Mary Sue Hubbard or Arthur in advising them in any legal
way at all on the document?
J: No.
L: What lawyers were there?
J: I believe Larry Heller.
L: Anyone else?
J: Not that I specifically recall, but that doesn’t mean that no one was
there.
L: So, Larry Heller was there in this incredibly coercive environment.
Were these men, these 12 to 17 people in Sea Org uniforms?
J: All men, except Vicky Aznaran.
L: Were they big men?
J: Big men.  Lyman, Norman, Marty, me.
L: Was there any kind of spoken or unspoken threat that if she didn’t
sign this document there would be trouble for her or her family?
J: Trouble for her, yes.
L: What was said?
J: Going to get sec checked, going to get auditing, going to get this,
ethics, whatever.  She blew up, she said, "No, I’m going to sec check
you to find out what the hell you’re trying to do to me."
L: So she was threatened with a security check, and ethics, which meant
that she would have to work through conditions and do all kinds of
menial, manual labor?
J: No, just have someone sitting with her in her house. She wasn’t very
functional. She had a couple of Scientologists who watched her every
move and reported to David Miscavige every day about her.
L: They lived in her house?
J: They lived in her house and reported on her every single day.
L: They were writing reports on her condition?
J: Every single day.
L: Was she sickly?
J: Very sickly, fragile woman.
L: Was she on medication?
J: No, I do not believe that was allowed.
L: So, she was sick, she had Scientology people spying on her before
these 12 to 17 people came…
J: During and after. It was all set up. They told what she did every
moment of the day.  "We took her to the mall today, she bought this
today." Neville [?] was reporting to David Miscavige every day.
L: Personally?
J: Personally.
L: Were they worried that Mary Sue Hubbard would…What were they worried
about?
J: That she wouldn’t sign exactly what they wanted her to sign.
L: So, she had no choice?
J: None.
L: 12 to 17 large men in uniforms standing around her ..
J: ..telling her she’s got to do it.
L: Other people were telling her to sign it?
J: The people were telling her to sign it was Norman Starkey, David
Miscavige, the attorney just handing it to her telling her this is the
release form, or whatever.  I never said a word when I was there, Vicky
never said a word, I don’t think Marty spoke to her.
L: Why were 12 to 17 people in uniform necessary?
J: Because David Miscavige said we need to go in there. Mark Yeager was
there.  David Miscavige said we need to go in there and show a unified
group of people from the church that we’re running things and it’s got
nothing to do with her and she is not entitled to anything.
L: Did he say that?
J: Yes.  I’m paraphrasing pretty much what he said.  David Miscavige
said she is lucky to get what she’s getting.  Ray Mithoff was there.
L: Was he going to convince her that she wasn’t entitled to anything?
J: Yeah.  And, I’ll tell you the moment when she actually relinquished
and signed the document, they pulled out their ace in the hole.  She was
actually kind of sad that he died, because they had been separated and
hadn’t talked for a long time.  Actually, they hadn’t be en talking that
much since she had gotten out of jail. She asked Ray Mithoff with tears
in his eyes if he had said anything, or asked about her before he
passed. He said no, he didn’t mention your name. At which point after
the meeting he reported with glee how he know that had really got to
her, just to know that she’s a piece of shit that he never said
anything. At that she bowed her head and they just stuck the papers
underneath, like this, and she started signing.
L: She had no representation. How much time was she given to think and
read, and think about whether she wanted to sign and waive her whole
inheritance, her children’s inheritance.
J: A couple hours.
L: Alone, she was left alone?
J: No, never alone. We stayed there for 2 hours.
L: For 2 hours you, David Miscavige..
J: Norman Starkey...
L: …just kept talking at her, they screamed…
J: they screamed.
L: Loud?
J: You could hear it outside with the door closed.
L: Screaming at her to sign this document.
J: And telling her we’re going to sec check you, and you’re out of
ethics and all of this.
L: They threatened her with all these punishments in Scientology?
J: Right.
L: And the lawyer sat there and watched this.
J: Right.
L: Arthur went through the same thing?
J: He was much more submissive because he had been gotten to earlier.
He escaped, ran away from the church, went to Hawaii.  They had PIs
track him down.  He just wanted to be away.
L: What do you mean, gotten to earlier?
J: Like I say, he wanted nothing to do with Scientology any more,
nothing to do with the Sea Org.  He just wanted to be a normal person.
He escaped, dyed his hair black, assumed names, all this stuff. Ended up
in Hawaii, just kicking around, having a good time. They found him,
escorted him back.
L: They sent PIs or someone out to find him?
J: PIs different church members, and brought him to me.
L: Physically?
J: Physically, brought him to me.
L: Was it with his approval, or was he kidnapped from Hawaii?
J: I think his brain was scattered because they had coerced him all
along the way, and now this was his thing.
L: So they brought him to you, why?
J: To audit.
L: To audit. Why do you think he was gotten to sign this thing earlier
before Mary Sue, what made you think he was going to go along?
J: Because I think his sister, his two sisters signed it willingly
signed it.  They were probably were used to coerce him to sign it.
Diana and Suzette, who were still both in the Sea Org.
L: How much did Diana and Suzette get?
J: I think they got $50,000.
L: $50,000.  Were they, did they have attorneys that represented them?
J: Like I say, at no point did I ever see them having any attorneys.
L; They had no legal counsel?
J: No.  Intimidation.
L: This is for Arthur and Mary Sue.  What do you think, do you think
that Suzette and Diana had attorneys?
J: I can only speculate on that, Lawrence, and I think the answer is
no.  The other two didn’t, what the hell makes them special?
L: Do you think anybody said to them that because they were the family
and the heirs that they had complete rights to all these assets?
J: No. Quite to the contrary. I’ll tell you what they were told by David
Miscavige because I heard these words come out of his mouth: "Everything
that L. Ron Hubbard did, he did for the church.  We are the church, not
you.  Therefore everything is staying right here with us."  That’s the
way it went.
L: Did the lawyer ever say anything to them about…
J: Silent.
L: Never said anything about a state law or anything like that?
J: No.
L: They did everything…  Did David ever, or Starkey ever.
J: No, you’ve got to me, because this gets frustrating.  I told you
exactly what happened.  Raymond up and dropped the bomb on her that he
didn’t care about her, she hung her head and just started signing
whatever they stuck under her hand.
L: Trust me on these questions, there’s a reason for them.  We’ll talk
about it when we’re done.  Did anyone tell her that the law said that…
did anyone imply that the law was not on her side?
J: No.
L: So they just simply said, we own this because Hubbard did it for us,
sign the document, with 12 to 17 men in uniform standing around her an
intimidating presence, screaming at her.
J: No, everybody wasn’t….
L: Just Miscavige.
J: Norman and Miscavige.  He introduced us, he said, these are the
people in RTC, they do this, they’re running things, not you, not the
family.  Here’s international management, Mark Yeager, he’s running
things not you.  Here’s all the services, you’re not part of this.
L: Do you think the Hubbard family had any idea that his assets were
worth from $100 to $400 million?
J: No.
L: Do you think that them receiving $50,000 each and Mary Sue receiving
$100,000 for the estate of L. Ron Hubbard, do you think they would have
done that if they had legal counsel, had there not been people standing
in their room 12-17 men, women, in uniform, and being screamed at? Do
you think they would have done that after careful selection?
J: I’ll say this, the answer is obvious.  David Miscavige had a smile on
his face for nearly a week after he pulled that off.  I mean he was
happy, happy, happy.
L: He just made $400,000,000.
J: Or more. I think it’s a lot more than that.  Can we take a break?
[BREAK]
L: Let’s go back to fraud in the Hubbard estate.  Anything else you know
about any of the asset transfers, anything having to do with how the
Hubbard family was manipulated maybe prior to them being given these
ridiculous documents to sign, that signed away hundreds of millions of
dollars of their inheritance?
J: This is another incident that I was directly involved in.  This was
like a couple of weeks after I was brought up to the Hemet location,
which I didn’t want to go to in the first place.  There had been a
situation where Diana Hubbard wanted nothing else to do with the church.
She had married some record producer guy, his name was John Ryan. He was
interested in her as an artist, and she just wanted to dissociate
herself from Scientology. Well, she effectively did so, and she was
extremely non-cooperative. Now this was a nightmare for David Miscavige
and I guess L. Ron Hubbard. Because L. Ron Hubbard was concerned with
Roe Ann, Diana’s daughter, not being within the confines of the church.
For a long time after Diana’s decision to leave the church, and which
she did, you know whe used to have that penthouse at Flag, on the second
floor, she just abandoned that, ran away, married this other guy.  L.
Ron Hubbard had sent down orders to get her to turn over custody of Roe
Ann to John Hallwitch, her former husband and father of the child, who
was still in Scientology in the Sea Org.  He came from quite a wealthy
family himself. It was my job to go there and make her sign over legal
custody of the child. I was given mission orders by Miscavige and
Starkey, who talked to me extensively about things that had been done,
and what was she was doing.  David Miscavige mentioned that she was in
the Mile High Club, giving people blow jobs on the airplanes, and this
and that and the other thing.  Screwing this one and screwing that one,
and just kind of out in life trying to be a normal person is how I see
it at this point. I was to go there, she could do that, but I was to do
that and get her to sign over custody of her child to her former
husband, which I did do.
L: She actually signed over custody of her child?
J: Yes.
L: What did you say or do to make a mother give up her child to an
organization she wants nothing to do with?
J: I told her just basically spoke to her about the goodness of
Scientology and the Sea Org and all of the things it was trying to do.
That she had chosen another path, and it was obvious that she was going
to do that, but to please let Roe Ann grow up in an environment where
people would look after her and she would be perfectly taken care of. Of
which she was. She was like a child prodigy; she lived like a princess
in the making. For some reason on another, there was literally no
resistance. She just said OK and signed it.  I was there all of 45
minutes. By the time I finished my speel, she had her damn pen in her
hand.
L: You never had to say anything negative, no threats, no nothing?
J: No sect checks, no I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that. She
just did it. She was tired of fighting, she was pale.  I was the last
person in the line of many.  Vicky Aznaran went there and screamed at
her, had a fit, totally screwed the whole thing up. David Miscavige went
there, screaming at her, telling her how horrible she was.
L: So, people had already taken her through the baiting, they had
already wore her down.
J: Months earlier.
L: How many missions went there to try to get her kid from her.
J: Two.
L: David Miscavige and Vicky Aznaran, and you know for a fact they
screamed at her?
J: And failed miserably, and she just got worse.
L: Did they threaten her?
J: I’m sure they did, but I wasn’t privy to that.  I just know how they
act, the kind of people they are.
L: When you came there she was pale?
J: Kind of listless, kind of.  She had been in a giving up position,
like I just give the hell up.  I just spoke to her, I said, these are my
views on it, you know why I’m here. This is why we’re doing it. By the
time I got out my speel she said, OK, where do I sign. No
representation, no attorney, nothing.
L: Signed over her…
J: Her only child.
L: …without an attorney.  Did you take the child with you?
J: The child was already in the custody of the church, this was just a
legal matter.
L: How could the child be in the custody of the church if the mother…
J: The child was in Hemet California, and the mother was in Florida at
the Flag.  How that happened I don’t know, but that was the existing
situation when I came into it.  It was just a legal wrap-up that they
were trying to do.
L: Anything else that you know that happened to the Hubbard family prior
that might have set up a situation before they signed their inheritance
away?  Anything that might have affected that? Did the church run any
covert operations on them?
J: Beyond what I told you about Art with the Hawaii trip, they were the
only children that I was somewhat close to, Arthur, Diana, and Mary Sue.
Those were the ones that I had affiliation with.
L: Anything else relating to the probate or the estate where you saw
anything that was fraudulent or anything that didn’t look right to you
in the way that it was transferred or handled?
J: Beyond what I told you, I don’t know what else more wrong could
happen.
L: Let me ask you then, you mentioned that David Miscavige said that L.
Ron Hubbard wasn’t competent and they couldn’t let him get on the stand,
and he just wasn’t well enough.  Did L. Ron Hubbard get better after
those times, did he get healthier? Did he get stronger?
J: Never saw it, never had any indication.  In fact, I think he got
worse.
L: He got worse.  He was incompetent before, now, they say that L. Ron
Hubbard signed a will on the day before he died, yet Miscavige say
Hubbard was incompetent.
J: Another thing in my mind now.  Norman Starkey knows how to perfectly
forge L. Ron Hubbard’s signature.
L: Norman Starke knows how to perfectly forge… How do you know?
J: And so does David Miscavige because he showed me. He wrote his
signature. David Miscavige wrote his signature. David Miscavige could
write his signature perfectly.
L: They actually could do a perfect forgery of L. Ron Hubbard’s
signature?
J: Yeah.
L: Do you know that they ever did forge L. Ron Hubbard’s signature?
J: He was showing me that he could, David Miscavige did mention to me
that he had done it before.
L: He had forged L. Ron Hubbard’s signature.  I guess what I’m asking,
I’m hearing…
J: This was right around, or shortly after the probate thing, because…
Now you’re reminding me of something. Let me talk. You are reminding me
of a time when L. Ron Hubbard was supposed to sign something, I
mentioned this in my declaration that David Miscavige was the person
that could do the seals, the… what is it?
L: Notary.
J: Notary public, a notary public.  He took all of that stuff.  What he
was showing me, telling me that if he had to go off to some place to get
LRH to sign something was when he was telling me that he could write
LRH’s signature, and showed me he could do it.
L: They claim that L. Ron Hubbard wrote a will the night before he died,
changing all of his beneficiaries, changing his estate, and yet…
J: I don’t believe it. Lenskes got together and did that, and I believe
that if anything needed to be signed, David Miscavige signed it.
L: OK. Let’s assume that didn’t happen. You’re getting these reports
that L. Ron Hubbard is not competent, that he’s mentally not well, and
he’s taking all these drugs. Do you think, let’s just conjecture, I’m
wondering how a man David Miscavige says is not competent can sign a
will when he’s not competent.
J: This is why it’s my belief that he never signed a will. Either Norman
Starkey, and I don’t think Norman did it because he’d had to then sign
his own name as an executor of the estate, which he was. I think
probably David Miscavige signed it, because he could do it perfectly.  I
saw it with my own eyes. I saw him write L. Ron Hubbard’s signature, and
you know this other thing.  They would even brag about it, you know,
they would sell these copies of books that had LRH’s signature on it.
Norman was writing that. They would laugh about it. Tell these people,
you’re buying this book L. Ron Hubbard signed it, and it was Norman and
them signing them.
L: You mean the books.
J: The Battlefield Earth books.
L: for like $2,000 or $3,000 or $5,000 for hand signed copies.
J: LRH did not sign them.
L: That was a fraud?
J: Fraud.
L: It was an art fraud in a sense, for hundreds of thousands of dollars
of art fraud on people who thought they were buying original copies…
J: Yeah, because so many people wanted to buy it, and I was sitting in
the office with David and Norman, it’s like there ain’t no way in hell
LRH’s going to sign this shit, we’ll sign it.  The comment was, "We’ll
never get him to sign this."
L: Dr. Dink, at the time of L. Ron Hubbard’s death, was L. Ron Hubbard’s
physician.  Dr. Dink was the one bringing up all these prescriptions and
giving him the medication.
J: And doing "research" with L. Ron Hubbard.  They would discuss
different types of drugs, what the drugs would do. Gene Dink would get
the drugs, let him do what he wanted. He was the guinea pig, L. Ron
Hubbard was the guinea pig.
L: He was making himself his own guinea pig?
J: Right.
L: For drug therapy?
J: Right.
L: For the man who doesn’t allow drugs for any members of the church of
Scientology.  Did Dink keep, do know if he kept medical records on L.
Ron Hubbard’s condition?
J: If he did I nee saw them.
L: Would Dink know if L. Ron Hubbard was competent?
J: He would know, whether or not he would say is another thing, because
he was in the deep pockets. Like I say, a trip was financed for him to
go to Vegas, he was given money to go gamble.
L: The church of Scientology gave the doctor of L. Ron Hubbard…
J: Money to go gamble in Vegas, immediately after he passed.
L Immediately after he left.
J: After he was dead, I’m talking about now he’s dead, now they do
whatever they do.  Now he’s up in Vegas gambling.
L: The personal physician of this guy. How long was Dink Hubbard’s
personal physician?
J; For as long as I knew, starting from ’82.
L: From ’82 to ’87.  Did he have other patients, or was he just
dedicated to L. Ron Hubbard?  Was this his person physician?
J: I think he had other patients, other Scientology patients.
L: Would you say that L. Ron Hubbard may have been his most important
patient?
J: That would be speculation on my part, but I think he was his most
rich and influential patient.
L: So, his patient dies, changes wills on the night before he dies.
J: He goes to Vegas to gamble.
L: And he goes to money to gamble on money given to him by the church?
J: Right.
L; Do you have any idea how much money?
J: I think maybe $10,000.
L; $10,000 was given to Dink to go to gamble in Las Vegas.
J: Mike Eldridge related that story to me, and Rick Aznaran.
L: What was their position at the time?
J: Well, Mike Eldridge went up there after he was already dead, but the
body was still at the property, so did Rick Aznaran. Dink was there.
They went to another property in Vegas after the death. They sent Dink
and some other people there, away from that scene, and Dink went to
gamble and Rick and I believe it was Mike stayed at the Las Vegas
property, just kind of watching over Dink.
L: Why would they watch over Dink?  What would they be worried about?
Why would you watch over the physician?
J: I don’t know, but they were like entertaining him.  It’s all secret,
secret cars, secret locations, tailing him, the elaborateness they would
go through to keep these things secret.
L: But L. Ron Hubbard’s dead, why would you worry about the physician’s
doing?
J: I have no idea.
L: Is Dink still in the church now?
J: I have no idea.
L: Anything else? Do you know of anyone who was there when Hubbard died,
physically died? Have you heard anyone talk who may have been a witness
to his death?
J: Ray Mithoff.
L: Ray Mithott was there. Anyone else?
J: David Miscavige.
L: David Miscavige was there when he died
J: Norman Starkey, Pat Broeker, Annie Broeker, Sarge and Pooh.
L: Sarge and Pooh, you don’t know their last names?
J: Those were the ones that were there, and some hired people, some
hired hands I guess.
L: Were there any attorneys there?
J: I can’t say.
L: You never heard if any attorneys were there.
J: What I will tell you when, let me speak, just before he died, it was
like his death was known. Certain people disappeared already, before it
was announced he was dead.  Ray Mithoff disappeared, David Miscavige
disappeared, Norman Starkey disappeared, for at least 3 or 4 days prior
to L. Ron Hubbard being dead. Because we were wondering where the hell
they were. Vicky and I were wondering, where are these people. Suddenly
Ray is woken up in the middle of the night, he’s given a bran new
vehicle, a Bronco, a Ford Bronco and told to go there, and no one can
know what he’s doing. The next thing you know, when he comes back, L Ron
Hubbard’s dead. So there was a 3 or 4 day period prior to L. Ron Hubbard
being dead where certain people that disappeared and the later story was
that they were there when it happened.
L: Is it possible that Hubbard had died and they went after he died? Is
there anything that would make you think that from anything you’ve ever
seen or heard inside Scientology?
J: Anything is possible.
L: I’m asking whether you saw or heard anything that would make one
believe that Hubbard may have been dead when they woke up Mithoff and
everybody went there after he died.
J: I can speculate that, but Ray Mithoff said he was auditing him when
he went there. Who knows what happened, I don’t have any...  No one said
to me, or no one ever gave me the idea that he had already been dead.
L: Have you heard anything about when he signed his will? Have you heard
anybody discuss the time when he changed his will? Nothing at all. Let’s
keep going with our list.
J: OK. [Reading] "Spanky Pena, specifically mentioned that when she was
on the RPF she had a 3 pound baby. She had to rush to the hospital, the
medical office said to tell the hospital that she was indignant so that
Scientology wouldn’t have to pay the bill. Indigent! So that Scientology
would not have to pay the bill. This was a Medicare fraud case."  I know
that Spanky was on RPF, I know she had it very difficult, I know the way
she was treated.  The thing with Medicare, I can only believe my own
personal story, as far as being there and having that firsthand
knowledge, no.  [Pause] The guy that was run over by the truck riding
his bicycle.
L: Was that Shaeffer?
J: Yeah, Bob Schafner, we already talked about that.
L: Let me ask you a question did you ever hear of any other accidents
involving staff members or people in Scientology.
J: Yes, Kevin cut his damn fingers off, only had 3 fingers left.  Kevin
True.
L: Kevin True. Was this related…
J: Had to be flown by helicopter out.  He was in RTC.
L: Could this have been related to..
J: He was doing ethics and was doing conditions and he was doing amends
L: No sleep…
[TAPE ENDS; CONTINUED ON TAPE 4]