Tape 7, August 30, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Does anyone know if he's still in?
J:	Not me.
L:	What about Terry Gamboa?
J:	Terry Gamboa would know, Janis Grady would know.
L:	They would have known?
J:	Janis not so much, but Terry Gamboa would.
L:	The type of criminal activity she would be most familiar with?
J:	Finance, corporate shenanigans, corporate integrity.
L:	Anyone else that you know or has heard of that has left that... Or let me ask this another way, when you were in, what factors were they most worried about?
J:	Gerry Armstrong , Lawrence Wollersheim, that girl up in Portland, the Portland case -
L:	Julie Tischborn [?]?
J:	Julie Tischborn [?].
L:	Any other staff?
J:	David Mayo.
L:	David Mayo.
J:	Bent Corydon.
L:	Bent Corydon. OK. You have mentioned before that David Miscavige, Norman Starkey, Lyman Spurlock and Marty Rathbun are the four that are most knowledgeable and most involved in Scientology's past and current criminal activities. Beside those four, you also mentioned a -
J:	Ben Shaw.
L:	Ben Shaw. What other executives are -
J:	Jeff Schriver, as far as the black ops thing. Gary Clinger.
L:	Gary Clinger. The people that deal with the most secret stuff in Scientology.
J:	Marine Bergatti.
L:	Marine Bergatti, she's out of England?
J:	Right.
L:	She makes regular trips in and out of the United States, has a passport?
J:	Wendall Reynolds would know finance. He could tell you, because he did the whole thing.
L:	He would have knowledge related to the IRS.
J:	Another secret little person in the back that's right up there, that's maybe a notch and a half below David Miscavige is Mark Ingbert.
L:	He would have knowledge about criminal activity?
J:	Financial criminal activities.
L:	Any of the other top executives that you know that would be the ones most knowledgeable or most involved in criminal activity going on inside of Scientology?
J:	No, I think that covers it all.
L:	Besides Mart Rathbun being the weakest link and most likely to possibly turn states' evidence or leave, rather than go to jail himself when they start prosecuting these crimes, is there anyone else in that group of people that you think would be the second most likely person that would say, "I'm not going to jail for all this."
J:	Lyman Spurlock.
L:	Lyman Spurlock, why do you say that?
J:	Because he is loaded with crimes, he's loaded with doing the corporate, I mean, as a matter of fact, Dave Miscavige and Norman could easily point their finger to him and say, "He did it." It's not real to people how these people operate under orders, but, because by his hand a lot of things happened.
L:	Do you think they would set it up that way that if something happened, you know, the old Mary Sue was not following policy, this is the renegade in the organization. Do you believe that if David Miscavige or Starkey could avoid the criminal charges and frame one of these other people, would they be loyal or would the frame them?
J:	They would frame them in a heartbeat. Like I said, Scientology has a theory, a bent theory. We've seen L. Ron Hubbard's wife go to jail based on orders he was having her execute. So, there is no dignity.
L:	So do you think that before, in earlier discussions, you said Scientology goes to great lengths to try to predict what's going to happen in a high risk situation and cover it in advance. Do you think that Miscavige, or Miscavige and Starkey, are the two top people - first Miscavige then Starkey, or is their someone else?
J:	Starkey is like a satellite person. He doesn't have presence of mind, or the drive, or the intelligence, to do anything.
L:	Who is second in command of Scientology right now under Miscavige?
J:	I don't think there is one.
L:	Miscavige is running -
J:	He doesn't allow that.
L:	Doesn't trust anyone else?
J:	No.
L:	So, do you believe that Miscavige may have pre-anticipated someone turning on him, set them up with a series of obvious clear criminal activity that could go right to that person immediately?
J:	I think Lyman Spurlock is that person, as well as Marty Rathbun.
L:	So they're the fall guys if you go after Miscavige, Miscavige will sacrifice them, come up with a story that they're renegades, they weren't following Scientology.
J:	He may do 6 months with what they can get on him. It's all these other people, because their names are signed.
L:	He induced them, he ordered them to do these crimes, their names are on it, they're going to the big time jail thing. David is the invisible guy.
J:	We're leaving out the attorneys too. In this equation of who needs to go down, we're not looking at the fact that some of these attorneys, Larry Heller, the Lenske brothers, are just as key players. If you're talking about somebody that's running Scientology, besides David Miscavige, they you need to look toward the attorneys.
L:	There's a group of attorneys. Anyone besides Larry Heller and the Lenske brothers, who are knowledgeable about criminal activity of Scientology and/or involved in it? We mentioned Earl Cooley.
J:	Earl Cooley was like a Johnny-come-lately. These other people have been doing it forever.