Tape 7, August 30, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	But they were asking who you had talked with and who you were involved with?
J:	How much money do I make, how is it where I live. Just a zillion questions.
L:	What do you think they were looking for?
J:	Exactly what I said, I think they were looking to see whether or not I had come to myself enough, or if someone had talked to me to where I had my strength back and my mind back to fight them.
L:	Did Early Cooley make any threats to you, or did anyone there make any threats if you would speak about things in your confidentiality agreement that your life would be very difficult?
J:	Not at that time, but they just told me -- because in fact there had been no instances because I was literally in hiding. No one knew where I was. They told me to make sure that if anyone ever called me or said anything to me, for me to call them immediately and gave me several numbers to reach them at.
L:	OK. Has there been any other attempted coups in Scientology, other than when Miscavige took Mary Sue Hubbard and the old GO out and the guardian's office out and took out all those people and replaced them with himself and a new power structure? Did you ever hear of an attempted coup of other executives rebelling against Miscavige and saying that he needs to be removed from post, he should be ComEv-ed [?], or he's insane?
J:	Beyond what I've spoken about, nothing else.
L:	You were in Scientology for 16 years, you've disclosed a lot of information that some day will pieces will be out in the public, if not all of it. Scientologists are also mid-level executives are going to read this and they're going to say either, "Jesse's the biggest liar in shoe leather, or these things really happened, and I've got to start to think about it." What do you think will have to happen inside of Scientology for people to understand what you know about the organization, and to do something inside? In other words, for other members to go "Oh my God, there's these unknown corporations and bank accounts that nobody knows about." I mean -
J:	I just don't think it's as simple as that, Lawrence, that problem goes beyond that. The normal person, who you and I said, as incredulous as it is, who makes $24, $32 a week, they've been in the Sea Org any length of time, they're already completely disassociated from their family. They have no place to go, they have no other options. In their minds, they are exercising the best option that they have because everyone hates them, and they have no place to go.
L:	You believe that nothing would shake their minds enough to challenge?
J:	Oh yeah, I do.
L:	What would shake their minds enough to challenge the top?
J:	If the threat were removed, David Miscavige, Norman Starkey, Marty Rathbun, these people that are perpetuating these criminal activities, that makes them increasingly more frantic to make increasingly more money to cover the increasing cost of expense of these criminal activities. It's just a circle jerk. You start it, and it's just unending, a frantic circle.
L:	So they have to be either removed by the government, or they have to have flown, or...
J:	Be gone.
L:	Do you ever see, like the next tier of OSA people, who aren't at Rathbun's level, who aren't Miscavige, Rathbun, Spurlock and Starkey. Do you ever see the people just underneath that, or just underneath the next level saying, "We've seen enough to know that for the good of Scientology we now need to put you guys under arrest. You've embezzled millions of dollars out of the organization, you are harming us, you are harming everything we thought we were doing"? You don't see that as ever happening?
J:	No, because the people that are right underneath those people are being influenced and demanded to do enough criminal activities themselves so that -
L:	So the Mike Render level?
J:	Right. No, forget it.
L:	They're involved in the criminal activities as well.
J:	And the lying, and the perpetrating of lies. They know about it, they're not the ones that are making the decisions of what to do, but they certainly are actively involved.
L:	So he's tracked them in the criminal cycle, so that if he goes down the go down as well, and the people so far down the organization don't have enough power?
J:	They don't have a clue of what's going on.
L:	And they don't have the power to do a coup anyways, that would be credible.
J:	Right. Because David Miscavige, as we've gone over earlier, has his people, has all the trustees, there's a zillion, every one who's on the board of directors, has an undated resignation, whereas if they do one thing out of line, they're gone.
L:	They're gone, they're just removed.
J:	Removed. And the net one comes up.
L:	And the lawyers are all in on this as well, they're getting big money. So that what you're saying is that the only way Scientology is going to be fixed is if -
J:	From the outside.
L:	Federal government and countries all over the world arresting these people, trying them on criminal charger, and where proven, putting them in jail.
J:	Outside intervention based on the facts. That's what's going to change it. Because, inherently, the organization is bent. Inherently the organization is bent because L. Ron Hubbard was bent. Irrespective of who was on the top, if you read L. Ron Hubbard's policies and if you follow them, just like that old GO had, and the lying, TRs and all that kind of stuff, he is bent. Everyone that's going along that path is going to be bent to a greater or lesser degree, or be susceptible to it.
L:	He's created a machine that reproduces himself?
J:	Right.
L:	OK. What other defectors do you know of besides yourself, who would have knowledge of criminal activities in Scientology?
J:	Pat Brice
L:	She's in Portland, Oregon
J:	Mike Eldrich, somewhere in Florida.
L:	What did Mike Eldrich do and what would he have criminal knowledge of?
J:	He worked at Author Services. He was like their auditor and their core person for many years. He would have a vast amount of information if his eyes were open.
L:	Specifically any areas that he might?
J:	The raping of the Scientology organizations by Author Services.
L:	Financial.
J:	Financial irregularities, financial fraud. He would have a lot of information about that, and also, the corporate sham that's perpetrated by Scientology and that there is no such thing as separate corporations. There's just the appearance of it on paper. In practice and reality there isn't.