Tape 6, August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	That flew out to wherever she was in an effort to get her back.
J:	Right. Or to just like deal with her so that she was not a threat.
L:	What do you mean by deal with her so she was not a threat?
J:	So that she wouldn't go public or fall into enemy hands, enemy being critics of Scientology.
L:	And they were worried that she might have information that would cause a problem for Scientology?
J:	Yes.
L:	Do you have or did you hear any information that somehow they silenced her in some way?
J:	In some way, they reached an amicable agreement with her. It was beyond my information as to how it wrapped up.
L:	But at some point, David Miscavige said, "We don't have to worry about her"?
J:	We're not worried about her no more. Just check on her every now and again.
L:	But she's gone.
J:	Right.
L:	Could that mean that they gave her a reasonable sum of money?
J:	In my mind, that's what it means, that she was paid and signed a bunch of things and is deeply hidden.
L:	OK. Would Sue Brice, uh, Pat Brice be the person who could testify as to whether or not Scientology falsely copyrighted materials that--
J:	Between `80 and `88.
L:	`87, that may be in fact the same materials that, would she be the best person to testify?
J:	Yes.
L:	That maybe the same materials that Scientology is claiming we infringed their copyrights on, in fact, OK. So she would be the person with the knowledge about what went on.
J:	The specific detail and intimate knowledge of how the scam was done or how it was falsely represented to the copyright office, how these copyrights are still-- However she did it, I don't know. But I know, I've seen that woman come and say, "Look, we can't even do this, per the law we can't even do this."
L:	She said you couldn't do it per the law.
J:	And David Miscavige hit the roof. Yes. I was privy to that. She said, "We have no grounds, no basis of filing these things." She came in the -- Did I discuss this with you or was it part of my deposition where I said she came in? Yeah, it was part of my deposition. She came in with a handful of files, because there were several meetings in regards to this copyright issue. And after it was initiated I believe the second time -- and this was all part of that deposition that goes into great detail on this -- but she came in with many folders, that would be wider in your hand in this book, of copyright registrations. And she came in and said, "Well, there's a lot of this stuff we just can't do anything with because - " She just said it straight up like that to David Miscavige. He jumped up and hit the roof.
L:	She said it went into the public domain.
J:	Right.
L:	She used those words.
J:	Right. "We have no rights," she said. "We have no rights on these things." He hit the roof, quickly hustled her out of the room. He said, "She's off the, she's off the rails." And took her and screamed at her and said, "What the hell are you talking about?" And then he kind of calmed down and he said, "Look, we have to do this. Do you understand what this means? We have to make sure that we file these copyrights. I don't care what you have to do. Do it."
J:	OK. Scientology went to a judge in many places around the country, particularly Denver, and said, "We own these copyrights. These are valid copyrights. We want a secret warrant to go into, to go through the doors with the marshals and search and seize the property of FACTNet and the directors, Lawrence Wollersheim and Bob Penny . And represented to the judge, through their attorneys, that these were valid copyrights to obtain a search warrant. To get a warrant to search and seize a person's house is one of the most serious and difficult things to do and it has to be accurate. You don't just break down people's doors in America based on rumors. It is a, probably a felony against the Federal court system, a felony against us in raiding our homes based on a false warrant which they obtained from the court under false pretenses. And what you're saying to me is that David Miscavige, the head of the Church of Scientology, who ordered the raid on FACTNet, knew the copyrighted materials that Scientology filed were most probably false, that they were, many of these were in the public domain, and still knowing that they were committing a fraud, he ordered his attorneys in Scientology to submit this fraudulent information to the judge to search our places -- that he would have known that when he ordered the attorneys to go ahead and do this. He was well aware of it. Was Warren McShane ever privy to any of these conversations on the copyright issues? As the current head of RTC, would he have known?
J:	Is he the current head of RTC?
L:	I believe so.
J:	Over David Miscavige? Not over David Miscavige.
L:	Miscavige is off of RTC now.
J:	Oh, what is he doing now?
L:	I believe he's in some other corporate structure but I believe he's resigned from RTC.
J:	And Warren McShane is in?
L:	Yeah.
J:	Oh, that's pitiful.
L:	Do you recall Warren McShane ever being present when discussions about copyrights and things being in public domain and not being true?
J:	I think Warren McShane would have intimate knowledge about that by way of the fact that he was one of the major persons within RTC as a person that was junior to me that would deal with trademark/copyright registrations and problems. He was also a person that was privy to come over to ASI and have some of these high clandestine-type meetings. And he would have also, if Pat Brice would have spoken to anyone at RTC about it, it would have been Warren McShane.
L:	He would the person directly she was working with. He was around during the Pat Brice times?
J:	Yes.
L:	So, you can't for sure but because of his position, it was probable that he was aware that these documents were fraudulently filed?
J:	Very much so.
L:	And he participated in the fraud on the federal judge, causing federal marshals to come out and raid out our places?
J:	I guess you can make that assumption but there is one thing that I want to say about Warren McShane while it's on my mind. It's just incredulous to me that he is the person that is head of RTC right now, because he had at least two near psychotic breaks during the time period that I was there simply because of the stress that he was under. He was not a real conditioned, hard conditioned Sea Org member. He had been in public for quite awhile and then he came into the Sea Org and got this, all these crush, heavy stress kind of treatment simply because he had, he looked good on paper. But he was certainly one of the most weakest persons in the organization so I can only even imagine that he must have had the Mary test of fire, something horrible has happened and now he's really gone, because he was always one that had doubts and didn't know whether or not he was doing the right thing, or whether or not he could do what he was being asked to do, this kind of thing.