Tape 6, August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	So, he himself, the head of Scientology, was visibly upset by the content of the original OTVIII?
J:	Yeah, he was shaking his head like, "Man, I don't even know if we can put this stuff out."
L:	Let me just bring something up here. So, there were two OTVIIIs. The first one was released to a group of people over three and half months, and people were freaking out and reacting very, very badly to it.
J:	Right.
L:	Then another version came out.
J:	Without fanfare.
L:	They didn't announce a change.
J:	No!
L:	People didn't know that they'd gone from one OTVIII to another.
J:	Right. It was just like revised, you know. Just some corrections and I believe that that part was then stripped out. Because it became more palatable.
L:	Kind of secretly revised and then the new version came out.
J:	Right. Right. Without fanfare.
L:	Nobody knew, except maybe the CS, Miscavige-
J:	And the people that were directly involved on the ship and maybe someone who had done it earlier. You know, they got that patched up, but it was done in such a way, it was like, "Damn it. We knew it before we released it and now it's happened. Let's clean it up."
L:	And Bob Mithoff was the one who wrote this -
J:	Ray Mithoff.
L:	Ray Mithoff, from L. Ron Hubbard's notes, allegedly.
J:	Pat Broeker was involved in it, too.
L:	Pat Broeker was involved.
J:	David Miscavige was involved.
L:	Involved in it, so --
J:	Those were the three people that were involved, and maybe Jeff Walker.
L:	Is there anyone that you could think of, other than Broeker and Miscavige and Jeff Walker, who would be able to look - There's a document, the original OTVIII, that's been circulated, that talks about Hubbard saying he's the Antichrist, that Lucifer's really misunderstood, that document. Is there anybody other than those people who could verify that possibly that document is what everyone claims the original OTVIII before it was altered, which Scientology wildly denies, that the OTVIII is anything like that? Well, maybe they're denying it because they changed the document.
J:	Right.
L:	There, there are people who have left Scientology who had access to it, and they won't surface and name themselves. They're terrified.
J:	Yeah. It's a terrifying thing. When you gave me this, I felt sick.
L:	And they stated that this was the original OTVIII.
J:	The one with the Antichrist stuff in it?
L:	Yeah.
J:	Well, then that goes along with what I told you.
L:	But that's what they said, that they will not surface out of fear and publicly name themselves as being aware that this was the document that they were there -
J:	I've seen a man that said he wanted nothing else to do with Scientology, a European man. He said, "Fuck Scientology." He was like upset.
L:	You mean, a guy who had gone all the way up to OTVIII and saw the document and decided that--
J:	Freaked out. L --freaked out and decided to leave Scientology.
L:	That document does have the content that would do that to someone.
J:	It has severe impact.
L:	If you think of anyone who can verify that document, who could've or would've seen the original document before they changed OTVIII. Most people theorized they changed OTVIII. You're the first person that has ever verified it, that there were two OTVIIIs.
J:	I'm not even verifying it because I said I can't give you this or that. I just tell you what I saw, what I've seen. I've lived the history when this was happening.
L:	OK.
J:	But because I wasn't finished with OTVII, I wasn't privy. Of course, David Miscavige wasn't either, but that's neither here nor there. He's the issue authority over anything in the church. Because I talked to him about this. We discussed this. I said, "Well, I want to see it." He said, "No, you can't see it. And I have to see it because I'm issue authority. I don't want to see it either." That's how we engaged in the conversations, like, "Man. What's in here is gonna blow people's minds." He was like, "It blew my mind." It wasn't like a happy thing. It was like, "Man! We've never had anything like this before."
L:	He had an intense reaction to it.
J:	Very intense reaction. He didn't even want nothing to damn do with OTVIII was the feeling I got from him. It's like, "This is a mistake" or "This is beyond anything even I would have thought of, to now put this on the public." This is what I'm now feeling from him.
L:	Did he say anything to that nature?
J:	He just said, "I don't know what's gonna happen when we put this out." He was hesitant.
L:	Right.
J:	He did not want to do it.
L:	Scientology says it's compatible with Christianity. Every time people bring up Hubbard's background in the Satanic OTO before the founding of Scientology and some of the materials in Scientology that are anti-Christian, anti-religion, the secret materials Miscavige and his mouthpieces get up and say, "Scientology is a interdenominational religion. We have Christians, practicing Christians in Scientology."
J:	Noooo.
L:	"We are completely -"
J:	No. You are looked down upon if you try to practice religion. You are sent to Qual. You are sent to ethics. You do not practice other religions in Scientology.
L:	So if you were a practicing Jew, you'd be punished.
J:	Yes. You could never go to a Bar Mitzvah. You could never participate in any -- No. You would definitely be punished. Absolutely.