Tape 6, August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

J:	I became severely kind of upset at that point and actually left the OTIII course and, they get you back in there. You have to do it anyway, but as part of doing this, which I don't think is really recognized or is said for what it is, when you read this information, you're not allowed to speak to anyone about it, they make you sign. So it's not like you go and do a course and then you go to your peers and say, "Hey, look, you know. I just did this." That was expressly forbidden. So you kind of keep this inside. This was something that was kind of festering. Now, the next thing that I did, and that was the next time that I ever ran into a religious issue in Scientology -- mostly it was, "No, this is a religion. No, this is not about religion." Then I did that OTIV where I actually went into such a severe altered state of consciousness to the point where I thought I was actually gonna die. Just talking about it now, I get a big headache. These were really obscure concepts and now that I myself have had a chance to read Aleister Crowley and different things, I can see that that's where this was coming from. It was very much demonic in nature. Demonic concepts with using your mind to go and out and control people, separating universes, all of this kind of crazy stuff.
L:	Black magic?
J:	Yeah, kind of magic, doing magic. Then, culminating into, old OTV was another walk around and tell people to do this, that, and actually practice things, control over people without them knowing it 'til the point of when I did the old OTVI (this was before all this NOTs and all this other crazy stuff), that part of the proof that you had to bring in in order to say that you finished old OTVI was to leave your body, go to another country, and have someone mail you a postcard because you were effectively in their head. You're doing remote viewing. This kind of stuff. Several people lost their minds, utterly, totally, and completely on the courses that I was on and they were whisked away, and I've never seen or heard from them again.
L:	Do you remember any of their names?
J:	No. There were a couple people.
L:	That went psychotic on the levels, on these - OK.
J:	By the time I reached that old OTVI, which is not what OTVI is today in Scientology, I was a basket case. As a coincidence, as an incredible coincidence, next thing you know, here comes this NOTs now, this NOTs rundown, NED for OTs, which was positioned like, if you had trouble with these old levels, then we know exactly why and you just come in here and you get this NED for OTs. Well, I myself was extremely unstable after doing the OTVI. I mean, I was having a difficult time telling this reality versus something I'm imagining or whatever. I mean, I was just like crossing back and forth.
L:	Did you ever get a postcard from a foreign country?
J:	No, I never could do that.
L:	So you couldn't attest that you'd completed OTVI.
J:	Uh-uh. And I told them I didn't do it.
L:	Did you ever hear of anyone who did get a postcard from a foreign country.
J:	The only thing that I saw was people who attested to OTVI, and who, and how, and all that shit, I don't know.
L:	You think they really did get a postcard from a foreign country?
J:	You know, I'm not even gonna speculate on that but I will state as fact is what happened to me, when I was doing old OTIV. Now old OTVI, you've seen these materials before?
L:	Yeah
J:	Where you have to lay with your head pointed magnetic north and you kind of do this chanting and all this other kind of stuff, right? To get into this altered state. What did happen to me is I did that with the intention of moving out of my body, which actually happened and I went. I was upstairs on the fourth floor when I was going up in this ritual, day after day, to learn to exteriorize, and it actually happened and I went outside and the fucking building, I was four stories up. I had this bad fear of heights. I mean, it's less than it is now but shit, I look down and I'm four stories off the ground. Nothing holding on. Well, I immediately came back to this level of consciousness with the most severe headache and I think that, in my opinion, those things that L. Ron Hubbard has to create that effect is something that's been around for the millenium. I mean, every, someone else has discovered it's in the Vedic Hymns, you know, it's in Buddhism, this whole concept of exteriorization and all that kind of stuff. But the way it was done in Scientology, I have since come to understand, has more to do with magic than a more scientific thing.
L:	OK. Was the belief in Scientology that, when you said, God and Devil were an implant, does that mean they're some kind of a aberration?
J:	Yeah, religion is screwed up. It's just a false thing to enslave people.
L:	That was the secret knowledge about religion in Scientology, that religion was a false thing to enslave people?
J:	Right. And I even read, and I've listened to those Philadelphia doctoral course tapes, quite a bit. And yes, it goes into that, how horrid religion is. And then what shocked me is when that damn OTVIII came up. Now people don't realize there are different versions of that OTVIII. There's one version that one person saw that was just a one-page thing that kinda gave some prophecies. And what they saw was obviously incomplete. But I was there in the Church when they did the whole thing with the -- what am I saying, church? -- Scientology -- when they did the whole thing with the compilation of the original OTVIII, how they screen people so hard, when they got the ship about that other stuff. And then they issued something on OTVIII, which I never saw myself but I do know that the first people that did OTVIII, within the first three and half months, those materials were gotten away and they were changed, and they were issued again because there was a big problem with what people were reading. Now, I had a personal conversation with David Miscavige about this. He didn't want to tell me specifically what was in the pipe but he told me there was some information in there that was very startling and very rude that may very well upset people considerably. This was before OTVIII was - that first thing. So he told me there was something very bad in there that he was trying to grapple with. He had uncertainty and was like, "God, I don't even know if I want to say this." OK, and then it came out that some people were horribly upset. I mean, horribly upset.
L:	Do you know any of the first OTVIII people that did the original OTVIII before they changed it?
J:	Not really. I just remember, a man, a European man that was a complete basket case from the ship and I know that a lot of the people, not a lot of the people but it had had many complaints about that and then when they changed it, it smoothed out. Now, I'm gonna give my theory about that. The very first issue that came out was one of these representations that I have since seen out of the Church, where L. Ron Hubbard goes into this whole thing about how he is Satan, how he had a part in all of this, in the Book of Revelations. Then there's other ones that don't say that he is Satan but say something else, but what is common amongst all the OTVIII documents that I have seen is the slander of Jesus Christ, being a pedophile, a lover of little boys, and a slander on religion. So even if you minus the controversy about whether or not L. Ron Hubbard said he was Satan, there's other threads that run through all the documents that are common that makes it obvious who he thinks he is and what he thinks about Jesus Christ. And on one hand denies it ever happened and then on the other hand, said he's a pedophile.
L:	Does Hubbard ever call religion an aberration? Does he ever come out and say that this is something that needs to be audited out of people?
J:	Yeah. Yeah. In the Philadelphia doctoral course tapes.
L:	He talks about auditing out?
J:	Yeah.
L:	You remember seeing that when you were at Scientology?
J:	Hearing it. And seeing it.
L:	Did the top executives in Scientology believe in God?
J:	No. Well, you know, again, the ones -
L:	Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey and David Miscavige.
J:	Again, back to a conversation with David Miscavige when I first came to the base, to the Hemet location in 1982. I don't recall exactly what we were doing or what the circumstances is, but he came to me and he said, "Hey, look, you know there's no such thing as God, don't you? You know that LRH said there ain't no God. It's just all a damn implant. There is no God. We don't believe in God here." This is something he personally said to me in private, we were doing something. Now, the flip side of that -- I've had another personal experience where they were waiting for a decision, some kind of a court- it was a Portland court decision. I was there, I was there, Lyman was there, Norman was there, Ray Mithoff was there, Marty was there. We were standing waiting on the decision, and I recall David Miscavige saying, "You know, there ain't no God, but in case there is a God, I pray that we get a good decision there." You see, he has had in that same doubt what I've seen him express at that time was the same manifestation that I sought with him when they were putting out their first issue of the OTVIII stuff. I think he personally has issues with that himself, but I think he's definitely way to the dark side, but in his heart he has issues with it.