Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	He was one of those people that went to jail, and they said they had disavowed and would never be back in Scientology.
J:	I remember they were doing something with Jane Kember after she got out.
L:	So, Jane Kember after she got out of jail got back involved with-
J:	the Church doing something.
L:	The OSA, or just the Church?
J:	OSA.
L:	Back with the intelligence division. The former head of the worldwide intelligence agency who they disavowed was now brought back in undercover into the OSA. And this is the, you realize that David Miscavige, almost every time, or Heber, they get up and they'd say, you know, "Those were the old days. We don't do that."
J:	I know the party line. I know it all too well.
L:	This is quite humorous.
J:	It's disgusting me, actually. I'm starting to get disgusted.
L:	Let me ask you about Gary Klinger. Any criminal acts you remember Gary Klinger personally involved in?
J:	Well, the bugging which resulted in the TRO against RTC and CSC over that David Mayo property.
L:	OK.
J:	Oh, the getting of the documents from them in the financial records.
L:	He stole the financial records.
J:	He had his operatives do it.
L:	He was involved in the stealing of financial records from the reformed church of David Mayo.
J:	Right.
L:	Anything else you know about criminal activity he was involved in?
J:	Beyond that specifically, no.
L:	How about Rick Aznaran?
J:	Shredding documents, attempted planting of drugs, illegal drugs on John Nelson, bugging, the staff member bugging. He's the one that got the bugging equipment so we could do Bill & Holly Finnell. Also the bugging equipment that was employed on John Nelson in his room.
L:	They bugged John Nelson?
J:	Yeah.
L:	Was he still in the Church?
J:	No, he was out at this time.
L:	Do you know of any other staff members who've been bugged while they were members of the Church of Scientology?
J:	Beyond those that I've mentioned, I don't.
L:	Anything else Rick Aznaran was involved in? Criminal?
J:	Beyond what I said, I don't.
L:	How about Terry Gamboa. What did she do?
J:	As far as facts, I have none. But I think Terri was very much instrumental in the raping and pillaging of the orgs in this minimum book stock order and making sure that those -- She was the executive director of Author Services for awhile, quite awhile. Norman Starkey was her junior. So all of the criminality and separateness of corporations, she was very much involved in that.
L:	So, if I understand correctly, they were ordering the orgs to write them out big checks for all these books that they were being forced to buy.
J:	Which they couldn't even often deliver because they hadn't even been manufactured. It was a joke.
L:	So the money would go to ASI and then a lot of this money was going to overseas bank accounts out of ASI and RTC.
J:	Well I didn't say that.
L:	I was just asking. So, where did it go once it would go to ASI, all this cash?
J:	My understanding is it went into an account L. Ron Hubbard had, his personal finances. Because Author Services represented him.
L:	Do you know about the e-meter L. Ron Hubbard being paid between 20 and 60 million dollars for an e-meter that he didn't invent, in royalties, that was bought from him? His supposed inventor's royalties were bought from him by Scientology to channel 25 to 60 million dollars to him? Do you know anything about that?
J:	No.
L:	You know, we've talked about a lot of stuff. Is there anything else that you've seen Miscavige or Starkey or any of these top people of Scientology, is there anything in Scientology that you, now that you start looking from the outside that we haven't talked about, that you see as particularly cruel or ruthless, you know, just really mean to another human being, just viciousness?
J:	I talked to you about the incident about when it rained the entire staff was put in lower conditions, because there was a thunderstorm.
L:	Because it rained outside. Miscavige said that they had to be more in control of things. Because it rained.
J:	Yeah.
L:	That's what I call kind of crazy, any other crazy stuff like that?
J:	[Long pause] He would turn off the lights and grab girls.
L:	He would? David Miscavige?
J:	Yeah.
L:	What do you mean by grabbing? Grab them in a sexual way?
J:	Yeah. They would scream and squeal.
L:	Grab their breasts? Grab their asses?
J:	Wherever. Wherever.
L:	You saw this occur?
J:	I'd see them running around and of course they would kind of stop that. But then I would have to patch up the people that he did it to. Terry Gamboa and Joanie Labacky, you know, just physically having their way with these women.
L:	Did they have sex with him?
J:	I couldn't say. I know that there was some witness though, that Norman was supposed to be watching and she ended up giving him a blow job. And Norman ended up having to do lower conditions.