Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Do you think he has some sort of underlying imbalance?
J:	Yes.
L:	Is it a chemical imbalance?
J:	Psychological imbalance. Because the only way he knows how to, I mean, you know, the most simple situation, the only way he knows how to act is with extreme force that overwhelms whatever is opposing him. And whether it be mental, physical, whatever. That's the only way he knows how to respond to a threat. And I'm talking about something like a damn mouse running around the room. He would have people in the room with 22's trying to kill the damn thing.
L:	A little mouse?
J:	Yes.
L:	That actually happened.
J:	No, I'm just giving an analogy of what I think about his character. How overboard he goes over any kind of threat or opposition.
L:	What would you describe his spiritual nature? What is his nature?
J:	I think he has none at all. I think he's just a seriously deprived individual. What he's been deprived of is the common human experience where people love each other, share with each other, where empathy actually exists, where people will actually do something if someone else is hurt, you know, reach a hand out or do something, or involve themselves in the community. He has no concept of these things. He's a second generation Scientologist. His father was a Scientologist, ignored the children, screamed at them, treated them like puppets and toys, you know 'cause he. I mean, him and his brothers stand on their hands and do all these little tricks. They still do this today. They're grown men. But his father's pretty psychotic as well. Prone to extreme bursts of rage to low depression, you know. And then L. Ron Hubbard is the same way so it seems like David Miscavige has walked in the shadow of insanity all his life and that's the only way he knows how to act.
L:	What are the rest of his family members like? I was told he has, had some twin sisters, one of them committed suicide.
J:	I've never met them. I only know his brother and his father. I really don't know the rest of his family.
L:	Where do the rest of them live? Where does the rest of his family live?
J:	Loretta, God where does she live, somewhere on the east coast. His mother.
L:	She has nothing to do with Scientology anymore.
J:	I don't know whether or not she does or not. I know he constantly pulls her in and gets her ethics counseling. And she gets special treatment at the ship whenever something goes wrong, fly her to the ship, then take care of Loretta.
L:	So do you think she pays for that auditing?
J:	No.
L:	So he's giving his family special free auditing.
J:	Yeah, I think so.
L:	She has no contract as a staff member.
J:	No, refuses to be on the staff.
L:	He's using the resources of Scientology for his personal gain and advantage.
J:	Correct. And then his brother who works at Int management, Ron Miscavige, who also left Scientology at one point and they kind of begged him to come back. And he came back and he went and started some WISE business. And then his father. Those are the ones that I know.
L:	He has a sister.
J:	I hear he has a couple of them but I never met either one of them.
L:	They've never been around, never showed up, nothing. Tell me about, you mentioned a little bit about Rick Klinger.
J:	Gary Klinger.
L:	Gary Klinger.
J:	He's an ex-HGO person that has always been in intelligence, always been doing ops long before I even had a clue that the church did that shit, and he was in the Scientology -
L:	He went in the GO before the OSA.
J:	Yeah.
L:	And he was in intelligence in the GO before the OSA.
J:	Him and Jeff Schrieber.
L:	So, when Scientology made this public statement that they disbanded the GO, all those people were dismissed, they don't do that anymore, two of the top intelligence people from the GO --
J:	And Ben Shaw
L:	-- and Ben Shaw are now the top intelligence people at your time, are the top intelligence people.
J:	Right.
L:	Another complete sham.
J:	Right. Nothing's changed.
L:	Nothing's changed.
J:	No.
L:	What other GO people are high ranking in the OSA or the intelligence division of Scientology?
J:	Well, I knew Klaus and Edith Buculae, who were ex-GO people that were -
L:	In the OSA.
J:	Yeah, in the OSA. A woman named Cathy somebody, not Cat Moro either, but another woman that kind of had buck teeth and short blonde hair. Oh, I can't remember her ding dang name. But as a matter of fact, the whole entirety of the OSA network was majorly staffed with ex-GO people or people that worked for ex-GO people that were in these external units executing GO. They bought in, you know. It's the same thing. It's the same people.
L:	The people who went to jail, Artie Merin and Henning Heldt, I think Henning went to jail.
J:	Mm-hmm.
L:	Aren't they back working inside the OSA undercover again, working with Scientology, do you know?
J:	I believe Henning Heldt is. I've heard that name come up.
L:	OK. Marty or someone mentioned it?
J:	Yeah. But like I say, I was not privy to that super high level kind of thing.