Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Poor Marty.
J:	Poor Marty.
L:	OK. Do you know where Marty Rathbun's parents are? Do you know where he comes from?
J:	No.
L:	Do you know anything about that?
J:	No.
L:	Where Lyman Spurlock's parents are?
J:	No.
L:	The parents may want to be contacted. It might help the transition for them to realize that they might have to start thinking about cutting a deal because there's a problem there. Lyman, Marty, Norman Starkey, any idea of Norman Starkey's parents, where he came from?
J:	South Africa.
L:	South Africa. OK. Go on with the next one. Oh, we're talking about PI's. Do you know of any other PI firms besides Ingram that they use, any other PI firms?
J:	No.
L:	So it's really all done through Ingram. Does Ingram hire other firms around the country?
J:	Yes, he does.
L:	So he's running the whole show.
J:	Yeah. Him and Marty.
L:	How much money do you think has gone to Eugene Ingram.
J:	Millions.
L:	Millions. One PI firm is making millions of dollars?
J:	One PI, yeah.
L:	How many millions, when you were there?
J:	I wouldn't know. I know that, you know, I don't know. In RTC, I think we probably dumped $150,000 at one point and then started getting CSC to pay for it `cause we didn't want to pay for it.
L:	Covert operations. $150,000 over how long?
J:	Less than a year.
L:	Less than a year. $150,000. One organization. How many organizations could possibly be paying him besides RTC?
J:	Uh, CSI, ASI.
L:	Wow, that's a lot.
J:	Yeah, he doing pretty good for himself, financially.
L:	Do you know anything about Eugene Ingram's background?
J:	This was very much on a need to know basis. This is something that was just kept like I say to just a very few people, unfortunately, no. Fortunately I was not one of them.
L:	OK. All right. Let's go on with the next thing.
J:	OK. [Reading] "Political activities such as opposing or proposing legislation, or opposing or supporting candidates. This could include such means as telling members to write congressmen or make donations to particular candidates or buying political influence for Scientology?" The only answer I have for this question is that sometime, I guess it was 1991, they were trying to get someone voted into office in Hemet and we were all rounded up and told about this and told for the specific candidate to go vote for him.
L:	You were told by the church to vote for a specific candidate?
J:	Yeah.
L:	You were supposed to, you were literally supposed to vote for in Hemet, California.
J:	Right. And they loaded us up on buses, we all went and voted for that person.
L:	And you just did exactly what they told you to do, and did they ask you if you voted? Did they sec-check anyone to see if they voted, did they have any way of telling if you really voted for that person?
J:	Well, yes. That person won.
L:	That person won. So Scientology helped affect the outcome.
J:	Mayor of San Jacinto I believe it was.
L:	San Jacinto, is that a very big town?
J:	No, little town.
L:	A thousand people?
J:	Yes. We'd go in there in buses and do whatever the hell they wanted to.
L:	So you guys affected the political structure. It's illegal for a religion in the United States to involve itself in political lobbying. For anything like that, it loses its 501(3c) status. It cannot endorse candidates. What you're telling me here is that they violated their IRS promise to operate legally and they told you to vote for a certain candidate and that candidate won. How many people went in?
J:	The whole base.
L:	How many people is that? A hundred? 200?
J:	500 people.
L:	500 people were bussed into a town of a thousand people and voted for this person and got him elected.
J:	Yes.
L:	And you were ordered to vote for this. It was like, they were telling you what to do with your free vote.
J:	Right.
L:	Absolutely.
J:	This happened a couple of times too. They had us do it, go down to Riverside, loaded us up on buses and vote for a person in Riverside.
L:	Do you remember who that was?
J:	No, this is when I was doing really bad. I mean, I was just like a spineless individual.