Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Bill & Holly Finnell were the Scientology ministers who David Miscavige ordered to have their bedroom bugged, their home bugged.
J:	The were moved. A piece of furniture, a lamp that had a bugging device in it that was put in their room.
L:	Why were they told they were moved?
J:	Uh, because they were bad people.
L:	They were getting lesser quarters as a punishment
J:	Right.
L:	And they were really being moved into a bugged apartment.
J:	Right.
L:	And it was you and someone else -
J:	Rick Aznaran.
L:	- Rick Aznaran who were listening to them, spying on them illegally.
J:	Right
L:	And you would listen to your fellow ministers having sex because David Miscavige was afraid -
J:	That they were plants.
L:	- that they were from another organization spying on Scientology.
J:	Right.
L:	Do you know if Scientology has ever found any real spies, a real spy that they knew for a fact was a member of the government, in Scientology? Have you ever --
J:	No.
L:	How many people have they sacrificed to their witch-hunts, do you estimate?
J:	Countless. L Name some people you know that have been bounced out as spies of Scientology, spies of, you know, spying on Scientology. They mostly worry about the government, right?
J:	Yeah.
L:	Who else, would --
J:	I mean, that's where this whole rollback thing came from. I mean, they used to weekly, oh, it was such an insanity because, like, "Blah-dee-blah said, `L. Ron Hubbard's ugly.'" "Well, where did you get that from?" "Well, I was in meeting and somebody said that he had a bad picture." You know, just this insane trail of dis-related things, trying to make it be related, and the person who comes down, you know, then the person who said it just gets fucking exploded.
L:	What do you mean by "exploded", means --
J:	Sec-checked, you know, work detail until they crack.
L:	Did anyone ever admit, that you know of, of being a government spy in the history of all this punishment, and all these procedures to find government spies.
J:	You know, no.
L:	No one in the whole history of Scientology you have ever heard of?
J:	No, none.
L:	Do you think that the executives would have said, "We found so and so and we knew he was a government agent." Do you think that would have been, they would have bragged?
J:	Oh, bragged on.
L:	But in all of your years, you never heard one single person?
J:	Something wrong with that e-meter. (Laughter.)
L:	OK. Go on with the next one.
J:	OK. [Reading] "OK, Scientology and/or its attorneys knowingly and deliberately recruiting, using, or doing anything, or reporting anything to get the fee, private investigators?" Again, and this is what I think, um, it's Gene Ingram.
L:	How many people does Gene Ingram has working for him?
J:	I, I don't know. Like I say, that is something that is so private, just between Marty and David Miscavige and maybe Lyman and maybe Norman, but just like, more, less people than on one hand -- had that kind, I mean, I was privy up to a point of sensitive information which I've mentioned here but stuff like that, no.
L:	So, when the inevitable happens that either Norman Starkey or Lyman Spurlock or Marty Rathbun decides that they're not gonna take the rap for all these criminal charges -
J:	Well, they're well-insulated.
L:	- and, uh, goes state's evidence, they have quite a tale to tell, don't they?
J:	Yes they do. Especially Marty. Marty is the key because he came in there and got the baptism in fire and blood from the Diane & John Colletto incident.
L:	He's just hardened.
J:	Yeah.
L:	Do you think that any one of these three: Spurlock, Starkey, or Rathbun, when it comes to them going to jail for a long time or giving up Miscavige, do you think any of those guys will eventually either leak, crack or turn state's evidence? Which of the three do you think is the most likely to not -
[END OF SIDE A]
[SIDE B]
L:	The last question I asked is between Lyman Spurlock, Marty Rathbun and Norman Starkey --
J:	The weakest link in that chain is Marty Rathbun and the reason he's the weakest link is because David Miscavige physically abuses him so much.
L:	When you say physically abuses, you mean?
J:	Beats him.
L:	On a regular basis, he will hit this guy.
J:	Yeah, and Marty's the one who's already blown from the organization, too. He's already tried to get away.
L:	Marty has tried to get away, but Miscavige brought him back and the criminal, they have so much criminal activity on each other that they, Miscavige is worried that if this guy goes out.
J:	Yeah.
L:	So Marty has already blown. They just brought him back and broke him down and kept him there.
J:	Put him through the RPF, on the ship, put him through OTIII, all that shit.