Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Did they ever send reports on what to do in a certain situation, like in a sensitive situation if there was a PR flap, you know, somewhere, they would send instructions encoded how to deal with it?
J:	No, I think that was kind of like an underground scramble activity. If something warranted it, people would be there.
L:	Was, was, did Scientology gather intelligence on, in different countries, on people that they thought either could help them or might oppose them?
J:	Anyone that opposed them, they gathered intelligence about. Anyone that was wanting to help them and they were like coming to them, they would have them gather intelligence about them.
L:	If they were real important, they'd gather intelligence on them even if they were coming favorably to Scientology.
J:	Sure. L: Because, why would they gather intelligence on some powerful person that was favorable to Scientology.
J:	No, because they were afraid of spies, double agents.
L:	So, if a person was famous or powerful, they would generally run an intelligence investigation on them. Do you know of any major figures anywhere in the world that Scientology has run covert -- politicians, economic --
J:	Besides the judges that I mentioned, I don't think so.
L:	You don't know of any personally. But you know it to be a practice of Scientology that the local intelligence divisions would be, if someone was hostile and powerful, they could be gathering his sexual information, his financial information --
J:	Where he went to high school at, where he went to college at, who were his friends.
L:	Family information.
J:	Where does he bank, what does his credit look like?
L:	Would they gather deeper than that? That sounds really, you know, just general information. Would they gather -
J:	No, financial statements aren't general information.
L:	They'd get the person's actual bank records.
J:	Bank records. Uh, any possessions, they would find, like what does he own? If they have a car, they'll run the plate. You know, where he got the car. How many cars? Whose name is it in? Is it financed? Is it paid for? This kind of thing. House. Where's the house? What bank is with the house? Where's the connection, you know?
L:	Do you have any knowledge of any Scientologists in the covert operation being placed in the home of a political leader or powerful person in some US or any other country to observe or to gather information or to run ops? Have you ever heard of any person going underground in that type of an operation?
J:	I can't say I have because I wasn't all that privy on sensitive stuff like that.
L:	OK. Was it, did you ever, as head of Incom, did you ever handle any intelligence that was scrambled? You know, covert operation or any intelligence operations that were scrambled and sent via Incom, you know, like from the intelligence division in Germany to the intelligence division in the US? Did you ever see any intelligence traffic scrambled at all?
J:	No. It was always just handwritten envelopes with your name on it. It said "Eyes Only, please destroy when you read." So it was never anything electronic.
L:	They would never put any of the --
J:	During in my time.
L:	-- corporate operations into electronics. It was all hand delivered, hand written and then destroyed.
J:	Right.
L:	He would handle these courier packs?
J:	Well, in RTC it was a person whose name was Jeff Schrieber or Gary Klinger. For the OSA network, when I was there, it was Ben Shaw who wrote reports. It was Lynn Farney that wrote reports.
L:	So, they would have couriers taking these intelligence documents
J:	to Author Services, to Mark Yeager at CMO Int, to me in RTC in LA.
L:	To David Miscavige.
J:	To David Miscavige also.
L:	And they were hand written.
J:	Not hand-written. Typed.
L:	Typed. Now, were they written in such a way that you could read them in two ways. There was a code with names for different activities, like a B&E would be a breaking and enter. We called up. We're gonna do a Benny on this guy, or they were written in a way that you have to understand the code in the intelligence division so that if one of these couriers was stopped, then somebody couldn't read these and understand these.
J:	They were written in a way that, unless you're familiar with Scientology and some of its Invest, I mean, you could read between the lines, but you know, they were written in such a way as to be as least incriminating as possible but to give you as much information as possible. Quite commonly, what would happen is from reading a report, if it was too scant or I didn't know about it or want to know more, I would just simply give it to the case officer and get the case file and could see the details.
L:	And they'd tell you what was going on.
J:	Right.
L:	And was it, was there a lot of intelligence traffic going on around the world, data going back and forth.
J:	I had it coming from Germany. I had it coming from England. I had it coming from Switzerland.
L:	How often would these couriers bring in these packs?
J:	It was never, you know, see a different courier. It would be the same people.
L:	Same because they had to be totally trusted to carry this information.
J:	Right. Would be the same people.
L:	Would they go to Europe once a week? Once every two weeks?
J:	No, I don't believe that's how it worked at all. The information, I'm not sure how the information came from other countries to my desk but I know I was receiving Canada, you know.
L:	So, somehow it would get from these other countries to your desk and they wouldn't put it into computers, even encrypted. It was always typed up and then shredded and gone.
J:	Right.
L:	Okay. What's next on your list?
J:	[Reading] "Scientology and/or its attorneys knowingly and deliberately using electronic eavesdropping or bugging against its adversaries." I think I mentioned a couple instances of this that I knew about earlier where, in the Bill & Holly Finnell, and also with David Mayo.