Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Have you ever heard of any firm that went against Scientology?
J:	Intimidate. Intimidate. Um, who was David Mayo's attorney? What was his name?
L:	Maybe if you started saying what they did to him, you'll remember his name.
J:	Just a PI campaign, you know. PI's following him around. ODC, CDC, overt data collection, you know, just following him around, same thing that's happening here.
L:	Okay. Did they do this -- do you, actually, I'll let you get going. Just go on with the next one.
J:	[Reading] "49. Death threats, intimidation, or harassment of family members, friends, or employees, or anyone testifying or scheduled to testify against Scientology?" Me, me, me, me. Two times so far.
L:	Did you ever hear, when you were inside of Scientology any comment that so and so was gonna, you know be threatened or, you know, "We're gonna make sure he doesn't arrive on the witness stand"?
J:	They've said that about me.
L:	Anyone else? Have you ever heard them talk about buying off a former staff member to make sure that he stayed silent, making loans to them, covering off the buy-off like loans to Terry Gamboa, loans to the Las Vegas group, anthing along that line to buy silence?
J:	Not particularly.
L:	You never heard of anything like that, OK. Keep going with your list then.
J:	OK. [Reading] "Harassment of opposing parties by the creation of frivolous, malicious, or superfluous lawsuits intending only to punish and silence the opposition?" I know at brief meetings that I've been to in relationship to the Wollersheim trial, the strategy was to keep the courts and the litigation going at all costs, to just, no matter what decision came down, oppose it, find some reason, just keep that going at all costs.
L:	The Wollersheim strategy, take a --
J:	Not one thin dime for Wallersheim.
L:	OK. Did they ever talk about any code of operations on any of the attorneys?
J:	Uh, Charles O'Reilly, which we talked about that. Lita Schlosser.
L:	They ran covert operations on Lita Schlosser.
J:	Yes.
L:	Do you know anything they did --
J:	Um, friends, peer pressure with her. Talked to her friends, do the peer pressure thing.
L:	In other words, gather covert information, pass it to the friends to try to pressure her to back off the case.
J:	Like, "Hey did you know your friend here," that kind of thing.
L:	Do you believe that they ordered Charlie O'Reilly through the PI's to be beaten up.
J:	Yes I do. I believe they ordered him to be beat up. I know of a man in Mexico, and we will find his name, who got the crap beat out of him.
L:	Do you know of anyone else that was ever beaten up to send a signal to anyone opposing Scientology besides the attorney in my case and this Mexican guy?
J:	This was, OK, this is what I will say to give you the general attitude, lest there'd be a mistake about what's going on here. We would talk about, "Wouldn't it be nice if somebody would, like beat this person up?" or "Wouldn't it be nice if this or that happen. You know they're gonna motivate, they're doing a bad thing." And then in a more secret, with the Invest people, and I know in my own personal experience, it's just, with this, it was, "Well what can we do and get away with it? What can we do and not be found about it? What can we do with the least amount of liability?" That is the way that Scientology Invest goes. So if that means hurting someone physically or whatever you can get away with.
L:	So when they decide how they're gonna punish someone, and how far they're gonna break the law, they're asking themselves -
J:	"What can we can get away with?"
L:	"How far can we push it and get away with it?"
J:	Yeah.
L:	When they think they might get caught is when they stop doing, they pull back in.
J:	Well, they compartmentalize whose doing the activity, so if one person does something that really fucks up, well, it's all their fault and no one else knows anything about it.
L:	Would they disavow the person?
J:	Sure.
L:	Say that he's a renegade Scientologist?
J:	Right away.
L:	Was the whole reformation of Scientology after Mary Sue Hubbard when they said, you know, "We don't do this stuff anymore," it was just another -
J:	Lie.
L:	- cover-up, and would you say that they're the same level of criminality before the raid by the FBI?
J:	I think they're more intelligent about it, more efficient about it. No, I don't think that it's the same. Because I don't think they've been able to get them again like that.
L:	But they're still basically involved in as much or less criminal activity, or the same amount of criminal activity?
J:	Well, you know, I wasn't involved with the old GO, but I know the level of criminality that I saw and was involved in is really becoming clear to me as we do this and as I go through this, you know, it just happens every day.
L:	Okay.
J:	Happens every day.
L:	Um, let's keep going with your list.
J:	OK. [Reading] "Theft or alteration of documents from opposing law firms?" This, um, Bob Mithoff would get drafts or notes from meetings about legal causes of action taken against Religious Technology or CSC or whoever. He would get copies of it and bring to RTC where we would have a good eye to see what they're thinking about, what they're want to do.
L:	Of the attorneys.
J:	Yes.
L:	Would you say that David Miscavige manages all of Scientology?
J:	He does. And is the managing agent for all of Scientology. Him and it was L. Ron Hubbard. He took L. Ron Hubbard out though.