Tape 5, August 26, 1998 and August 27, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	You mean, like, it was directly under the sun in the desert?
J:	Right. But then they put a water hose around the track. It was a little hose so that you could get sprinkled with water so that, like that to Hell is supposed to do something about just getting straight sun poisoning. So, yet you have to just run out in the desert.
L:	What happened? Did any of these people's muscles tighten up after, you know, were they in pain? Their muscles hurt?
J:	Yeah.
L:	And even if they hurt, they would get them up the next day?
J:	Yeah.
L:	And make them run?
J:	Right.
L:	What would they threaten them with when you're in that much run that would make someone run?
J:	Just, "Come on, get up." You know, just, it's not even so much a threat. It's just a constant, "Come on. You gotta go. Come on! Come on! Come on! You have to do it."
L:	Okay.
J:	Keep going.
L:	What else have you seen? Anything else but that one?
J:	Mmm. No, just that. Beatings I told you about. Confinement I told you about. Excessive work detail. I know, just in my own specific case, when I left in '87 and threatened to sue 'em and do all this other stuff, and then they got my wife and they brought me back. They made me pull these big toolies, which are these things that have the cigars on them, in a dry riverbed, for two weeks for no reason at all. Me and Spike Bush, simply because we'd gone against them. And it wasn't unusual to have a staff member who was in very bad regard, like you'd have to go into the galley and scrub grease from - and work all night. They did this to people, just denigrating -
L:	What's the longest you ever heard them work somebody without sleep?
J:	Me and other people, 30 hours on, three hours off.
L:	And how long would this go on for?
J:	This went on for a couple weeks.
L:	30 hours on, three hours off. Okay. Let's go onto the next one.
J:	Four dollars and thirty cents a week.
L:	Big money.
J:	Big money. Hard work. [Reading] "Pregnant female staff members being ordered to get abortions, or being worked so hard and getting such poor quality pre-natal care and nutrition during pregnancy that they gave birth to deformed or low birth weight babies?" I believe I covered this with you yesterday. It's prevalent and just as common as can be. [Reading] "Staff members who need health care or operations being sent to emergency rooms or other government health services being told to say he or she was indigent and to hide the fact that they were Scientology staff members?"
L:	We covered that.
J:	[Reading] "#26. Any staff member who was physically or mentally coerced, abused, or punished by David Miscavige, or by his orders, by staff, by the order of any other Scientology staff member?" We talked about that already.
L:	Right.
J:	[Reading] "27. Any administrative Sea Org or non-Sea Org staff member who was paid less than minimum wage and the appropriate overtime?" Well, that's everyone.
L:	So, other than ASI and Miscavige and the top executives and the top people at CSI and the top people at RTC, of their claimed 13,000 staff members, how many of those people do you think are at minimum, below minimum wage?
J:	Every one of them, simply for ASI.
L:	How many staff are at ASI? How many people aren't at minimum wage of the 13,000 claimed staff members?
J:	How many are not at minimum wage?
L:	Yeah.
J:	12,080 are not making minimum wage. About 20 people.
L:	About 20 people are making big money and everybody else is working to save the planet at $4 or $18 or $20 a week, living like an animal.
J:	Right.
L:	Okay.
J:	Okay. [Reading] "30. Any fraud perpetrated on any government agency by Scientology while you were a member?" I think I covered that in my affidavit and my deposition and these tapes.
L:	Okay.
J:	[Reading] "34. Scientology falsely construing or projecting a religious image to unfairly obtain tax, legal, and other economic advantages?" Yeah, I remember, as part of this IRS thing, everyone had to do the ministers course so that it could be seen as a church, that they were like ministers.
L:	So, these people were ordered and did anyone say that we're doing this for tax purposes? Did you ever hear anything?
J:	Yeah, at the meetings, yeah, as part of our -- David Miscavige. L David Miscavige said, "We're now going to make everyone do a ministers course and become ministers so that we can get IRS-"
J:	And I believe that that came from L. Ron Hubbard.
L:	Okay.
J:	I know David Miscavige was the one pushing it.
L:	Did any of the senior executives of Scientology in your presence ever say to you, you know, that "We're only doing this religion thing for tax advantages," or "We're only doing it to defend ourselves, or certain legal advantages"? Did they ever say to you, you know, that this is, you know, "We're really a counseling organization. We're really a -- did they all believe that they were a religion then? J; No, I don't think - No one believes that but no one would be, would openly say that. It would be instant RPF. You know, no one would dare do that.
L:	OK. Um, keep going.
J:	OK. [Reading] "35. Secret and non-secret locations of all records, copies and records and archives of Scientology, including - " We discussed that.
L:	OK.
J:	[Reading] "36. Scientology records that had been destroyed or by shreader, chemical, or other processes?" We covered that.
L:	OK.
J:	[Reading] "45. Attempting to blackmail, bribe, or intimidate an attorney or a law firm to impede their ability to prosecute a case against Scientology?"