Tape 4, August 25, 1998 (Continued from Tape 3)

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	So they have weapons in the main security office.
J:	And in the booths. Shotguns.
L:	Do any of the Scientology executives, like Miscavige or Rath...
J:	Every one of them has extensive... I know David Miscavige has at least 3 or 4 gun cabinets full of all different kind of rifles, hand guns, this type of thing. Norman Starkey, the same, he even has an elephant gun there, that just knocks you away. L. Ron Hubbard was fascinated with guns. Richard Aznaran, his first introduction to doing something with L. Ron Hubbard that I know of, besides being his personal secretary, was to be his gun IC. This was to take the extensive amount of guns he has, which I would say would be over 40, 50 guns and rifles, and make sure that they're cleaned, buy new ones. He would go up there and test them. People in RTC would buy him guns, he would shoot them and say, "Oh, this is really nice." It was definite gun activity.
L:	Were there any military weapons?
J:	Yeah. [BOTH TALKING AT ONCE] R-18s, mini-14's.
L:	Uzi's, anything like automatic or semi-automatic illegal guns.
J:	All of them were semi-automatic that I knew of. I didn't know of any fully-automatic weapons. The Uzi's, yep.
L:	They had Uzi's?
J:	David Miscavige has an Uzi.
L:	David Miscavige has an Uzi. Any of the other executives?
J:	Mark Yeager had quite an array of guns at the time I was there. Ron Miscavige, David Miscavige's younger brother, or older brother -
L:	Why did they say they had all these guns? Did they ever make a comment why they had so many guns?
J:	For security.
L:	It wasn't a hobby they were collecting antique guns?
J:	Well, it was a dual - No, no, not antique guns. The best state-of-the-art guns. It was security purposes in case anything ever happened, they felt protected, because they had their arms, their guns. It was definitely a personal thing.
L:	Do you think if the government was going to go in and arrest David Miscagive and these top people that they would possibly respond?
J:	In a standoff? Yes.
L:	In a standoff. So they would respond with guns?
J:	Yes.
L:	Do you know of any other centers of Scientology that guns or survival provisions may be stored, their place up in Mendicino, the Mexican desert, the ranch down in Mexico, or any other places that they've set up as survivalist centers? To flee to, like an escape plan?
J:	There was that place in Nevada. Then there was Creston, and then there's where CST is located, up in the mountains. I've been their once, and Lord knows, I've been there a couple of times, it's been some years ago, and Lord knows I couldn't tell you where it is.
L:	California mountains?
J:	Yeah, California mountains.
L:	Where's CST is headquartered. Do you think they have weapons there?
J:	I know they have weapons there. I've been up there shooting weapons myself. I brought my own weapons there. At the time I had a 45 and a mini-14. There were plenty of weapons there, we'd go target shooting.
L:	When you say target-shooting weapons, are we talking 20 guns?
J:	20, 30 rifles, hand guns.
L:	And how many people are out at these locations, for 20 or 30 guns? 400 people?
J:	No. I saw like maybe 8.
L:	8 people and 30 guns. Why do they have all those guns up there?
J:	I think a lot of them are just guns owned by people, it was very in-vogue, or faddish to have multiple guns, just have a bunch of guns. Everybody had lots of guns.
L:	Do you know about any escape plan/policy, or evacuation policy for Sea Org members?
J:	No I don't.
L:	Do you know of any for the top executives of Scientology if they become alarmed?
J:	The only thing that I knew about is evacuation of the money, the Lichtenstein. There were plans in place to make sure that the IRS wouldn't get any money or no one else. They had several banks that they at that time, researched, that would be outside of the United States' jurisdiction, and the money could go there.
L:	Do they keep guns on the ship of the Flag land base?
J:	Yep.
L:	Other than in the security office?
J:	I know normally the executives all have guns.
L:	All of the senior executives, in their rooms?
J:	Yep.
L:	Would these senior executives, if they were challenged - What would cause Scientology to respond in a - from your being inside Scientology, what outside threat would throw them into a violent reaction, if that could happen? What do you think would do that?
J:	Like if people in Army uniforms or something like that showed up and stormed the gates or something like that.
L:	Do you think they would go for their guns?
J:	Yes. I think there would be a standoff.
L:	OK. Have you ever seen or heard or a directive by any of the executives that if we are, if the government tries to forcibly enter any of our centers that we'll fight back.
J:	No.
L:	Never a comment ever made at any meetings or anything like that, nothing in writing. Is there anything in policies that would imply that the Sea Org members, this is the paramilitary group, would do that? Have you ever -
J:	They are bound to protect L. Ron Hubbard's interests above their own life. So, yeah, I think you have the zealots, sure.
L:	Do you know of any secret storage areas in Scientology where records are stored, or food may be stored, or money may be stored? Have you ever heard?
J:	Yes, at the Gold Land Base they have a whole survivalist thing going on where there was food. Canned food was kept in a secret area at the Gold Land Base. Graham crackers, canned meat, gasoline, spare gasoline. Big underground tanks of gasoline. Generators, fallout areas, where people could be at. Yeah.