Tape 4, August 25, 1998 (Continued from Tape 3)

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	What other accounts were there that you knew of?
J:	The RTC account, there was $18 million there.
L:	$18 million in the RTC account. How much do you think Scientology was worth in '82, '83? Did you ever see any figures on how much it was worth?
J:	Without the services it was in excess of $500 million.
L:	$500 million, that's what they talked internally? Who threw that..
J:	Dave Miscagive, Lyman, Norman Starkey.
L:	All said the church was worth $500 million.
J:	But they also had other investments that were turning as well. They had investments as well.
L:	Tell me about these investments.
J:	I can't, because that's all I know. I was just told that there were also investments. You see, this was not money that they would openly. Just getting them to talk about money at all was like pulling elephant tusk with a pair of pliers. It's not like they run around bragging about it. I was questioning, and I just realized I was on dangerous, you know, like, "Why you asking, why the hell you asking, what, what." I just got off of it, I got off of it to the point when it was revealed to me that they also had investments that were turning, that was worth an awful bunch of money, too.
L:	Did anybody ever say how much an awful bunch of money might have been?
J:	No.
L:	Did you feel that when they said that, they were talking about more than the value of the church of Scientology, any kind of feeling?
J:	I got the feeling that it was some inexhorbitent money, some great amount of money, tied up in investments, and the details I did not even want to know, because I was walking on shaky grounds.
L:	So, they may have been in Miscavige's name, or Starkey's name or somebody else's name, or even in the church's name.
J:	Anything's possible. I think more, it was connected with the WISE, the secular stuff. I think it was more in those arenas.
L:	Let's talk about the IRS and Scientology. Did anyone inside of Scientology when you were there, ever speak of hiding facts or creating a fraud in any shape, manner, or form, to -
J:	..to the IRS. We talked about this quite a bit already on tape. I told you about the document destruction.
L:	Right. Were the attorneys..
J:	The attorneys were there, checking all along the way, each step of completion, to make sure that there was some type of corporate integrity there, to show the IRS. They looked at the books, they changed the books, whatever they did with the books, get rid of the advices, yes, it was a continuing process.
L:	They knew in effect, that in essence, the whole church was controlled either by Miscavige or Hubbard, and there was no separate corporations. The attorneys knew this, yet filed these documents, knowing that this was a fraud.
J:	Right.
L:	What attorneys were involved in that again?
J:	The Lenske brothers, Heller, those were the major ones. Heller even went up so far as to stand up on video saying he was part of the new management. I mean, now that he was speaking about it, he had an investment in it for sure. He would get up as a public speaker, speaking to the Scientologists, telling them how things are.
L:	And, they knew along this was a fraud they were perpetrating on the IRS.
J:	Sure.
L:	Do you have any idea how valuable the IRS tax-exempt status is to Scientology? How valuable they view it?
J:	I'm sure it's like a crown jewel to them.
L:	I've heard that they had a billion dollars in tax liability that was dismissed when they got that fraudulent tax status. Is that possible from what you heard?
J:	Sure.
L:	Did you ever hear anyone say what they thought their tax liability was, if they didn't get the status?
J:	Yes I do, and I don't recall the figure. I do knew that was not even a concern, the concern was getting the money out of the country to these foreign bank accounts.
L:	They just wanted the money out. No, that's it for today.
[END OF THAT SESSION] 8/26/98
L:	Today is the 25th of August [L got date wrong; was 26th]. I'm sitting with Jesse Prince . This is Lawrence Wollersheim, we're continuing going over various materials. We're going over today, a list that FACTNet put out several years ago of questions for former members to help bring out information on Scientology's activities because Scientology is so cloaked in secrecy and security clearances, and compartmentalized dirty tricks divisions. Unless you reach out to former members, and ask them to give their pieces, you can't put the puzzle completely together. A lot of people wind up suffering because of it. That's what we are going over. Jesse, do you want to start with your first note?
J:	Well, I made a note here for #2. [Reading] "Scientology members are forbidden to talk to each other about anything harmful that happens to them or others while involved with Scientology." This is an extremely early indoctrination that is common among all Scientologists. I guess you really come up to it when you take any version or form of Scientology's PTSSP course. Suppressive persons or trouble source person, where you are heavily indoctrinated not to ever speak about bad things that happen because you are spreading inturbulation, they call it. You are just indoctrinated through a series of steps progressively in Scientology to remain silent. The next thing you learn is to lie. It is based against these 8 principles of existence that L. Ron Hubbard says he came up with. It's basically OK to lie if your lie is protecting the greater number of these 8 points of existence, which is just more coercive crazy mind control stuff.
L:	Do you know of any situation where people were told to keep quite about certain things that went wrong, or were bad, or criminal in Scientology, any of this, they told that this is the greatest good for the greatest number dynamics, so you need to be silent about this? Does anything pop up to mind right off the bat?
J:	You know, I've said so many, it would just be regurgitating what I've already said.
L:	Let's go on to the next point.
J:	OK, I made a point #3. [Reading] "Scientology members are deceived by Scientology policies into keeping silent about any member casualties or illegal activities they might hear about, or be a part of." The only thing I can relate to this is something that I mentioned yesterday in regards to the Gilman Hot Springs location, how you get this pack of advices, they're not even policy letters. Advices from L. Ron Hubbard, Annie, or whoever, that basically trains you how not to interact with the legal system when seeking something from the legal or social system in America, such as abortions or different medical aid for operations or things like this. They're basically trained to lie. When I first came to the base I was given an assumed name, and used that in town. There is a false address that everyone uses there. This is like indoctrination when you get there, you are told, "You don't tell the truth about what you're doing, you say this is just a music studio. No management exists here whatsoever." This kind of thing.