Tape 4, August 25, 1998 (Continued from Tape 3)

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	If you remember anything in more detail -
J:	What I remember was he was left to die.
L:	He was left to die.
J:	And he was not in the good graces of the church, no one was willing to help him. He was kind of like fair gamed or something.
L:	And he bled to death because no one would help him.
J:	Yeah. And they were like, it's good for him the fucking prick, this kind of thing.
L:	They actually said that?
J:	Yeah.
L:	Marty Rathbun?
J:	Yeah.
L:	That that's what happens to people who -
J:	Yeah, go out ethics against the church, that's what happens. The SOB, he bled to death.
L:	Was he a staff member?
J:	Ed Brewer, I do believe he was. I didn't know him personally; I didn't come to know him until after his death, who and what he was. Then, also, Dennis Erlich was a good friend of mine, and was during the time of the church, when I was still in the church and he was outside of the church, picketing the church. He asked me something about Ed Brewer, and I told it pretty much what I told you right now.
L:	OK. On the upper levels, introspection rundown, the ELS, the OTCs, OT III, have you ever seen or heard of anyone going psychotic, or it was such a -
J:	Yes, European people, but I couldn't tell your names. People that just went berserk. Women, I've seen a couple of women.
L:	When you say berserk, can you give us some for.
J:	I mean like no longer even doing anything that resembles what everyone else is doing around them.
L:	Screaming?
J:	Screaming, talking out of their head. Speaking, you can't understand them. Throwing things around. Moving erratically.
L:	When that would happen, what would they do?
J:	Lock the person up.
L:	They would lock them up, and occurred during the upper secret levels, something that happened during that time. Let me ask you about finances, money, bank accounts, money being transferred out of the country. You mentioned something about Cyprus yesterday.
J:	You want me to talk about that, you've got to let me tell the story, and then after I tell it, ask me questions.
L:	I'm going to listen to your stories, and I'll trade you more later.
J:	OK. There was a point in time when they were buying that Free Winds ship, and this was prior to the IRS tax exempt status. Well they were systematically emptying all of the bank accounts outside of the US and lowering them to a real low level. Someone had gone to Cyprus, and I forget who the hell it was, it may have even been Norman. Some people went to Switzerland, some people went to Cyprus. They did a research to find out where was the least place the United States government could have an effect on a country, in relationship to its money. And they picked Cyprus and they poured a bunch of money into it.
L:	They drained US accounts?
J:	Drained US accounts, in other countries, and moved it to Cyprus.
L:	How much are we talking about, any estimates?
J:	Hundreds of millions of dollars.
L:	Hundreds of millions of dollars taken out of the US?
J:	Right.
L:	Was it taken out according to the law, where anything over $10,000 is transferred, you notify the government?
J:	I don't know how they did it, I just know that they did it. Then what was mixed in with that was this IAS, it just sprung a whole new reason to get money from people. So they mixed the monies together, money that they raised for the IAS, and the money that they had already put in there. They mixed those monies together, to make it seem like it was all brand new IAS money.
L:	To hide the fact that they had taken it from other organizations all over the world?
J:	Right.
L:	What year was this?
J:	'84, '83 - '84.
L:	Just to give you some background, the judge in my case ordered them not to transfer assets. They claimed they only had $16 million worth of assets in the church of Scientology in California. We claimed they stripped out $500 million and moved it out of the country.
J:	Yeah.
L:	They claimed it was bullshit. Were you ever aware of anyone ever saying we need to move the country because of the Wollersheim lawsuit and get all of the assets out of the church of Scientology in California?
J:	Yes, Marty saying that, Marty saying that by the time Wollersheim gets ready to collect, the CSC is just going to be a shell corporation, there will be nothing there.
L:	So, they knew what they were doing.
J:	Oh, absolutely.
L:	They deliberately stripped the assets from -
J:	from CSC.
L:	...hundreds of millions of dollars. What do you think that CSC might have been worth in 1980, 1979?
J:	You have to take a look at this. There was no CSI, there was CSC.
L:	CSC was everything.
J:	It was everything, so everything they had was there. When I arrived, the figures that we used to count in 1982, as far as Sea Org reserves, just that one Sea Org reserve account, was in access of $200 million.
L:	Just one account in the church of Scientology of California, the C org was in excess of $200 million?
J:	Right.