Tape 2, August 24, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Get them in a deceptive matter, you mean impersonate someone to get the records. With me, several months ago, someone called up impersonating me to try to have my bank records sent to Florida. They called up our executive director's bank and said they her husband and wanted the bank records, that type of thing. What makes you think that John Peterson was being a front for Scientology's illegal activities?
J:	Because he would sit and laugh about it. Like, "You guys are really getting me into some shit, and I'm worried." I've seen him say this to Marty Rathbun.
L:	Was David Miscavige ever in the room?
J:	Yes, David Miscavige would say something like, "If the heat is too hot, get out of the kitchen. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen."
L:	That's what he'd tell him. Marty Rathbun was there, Lyman Spurlock? You were all discussing these illegal activities with the attorney, and the attorney knew they were illegal -
J:	Sure.
L:	- and the amounts of money?
J:	John Peterson was a major major one, that the money would get funneled through.
L:	Give us an idea of how much money might have gone through Peterson?
J:	Hundreds of thousands.
L:	Hundreds of thousands for illegal actions of obtaining illegal records.
J:	that would be able to pay deep cover operatives.
L:	Deep cover operatives.
J:	Illegal soliciting of private information, surveillance.
L:	Would this be on judges, too.
J:	Oh, sure, anyone.
L:	Did you hear the names of any judges that they were collecting these records on, specifically, the names of -
J:	Breckenridge.
L:	Breckenridge of the LA Superior Court, they obtained his illegal records. Who else?
J:	Yeah. The other one, who was the other one? The other judge that was involved in your case? Swearinger.
L:	LA Superior Court Judge Ronald Swearinger, they obtained all his -
J:	As much as they could.
L:	Any other judges that you ever heard?
J:	There was another one that was kind of bad, that they didn't like.
L:	Judge Ritchie, did you ever hear his name?
J:	Yes, I've heard Marty say that name.
L:	Krenzman out of Florida, Judge Krenzman.
J:	There's another LA one that I'm thinking of.
L:	Judge Margolis?
J:	Yes, I've heard that name too.
L:	Was that in association with the project to obtain judge's records.
J:	It was any judge that was consistently giving them bad decision.
L:	It would be safe to say that any judge who is ruling against Scientology, and what period to you think this was?
J:	The biggest op to doing the judges who was giving bad decisions about Scientology was to get peer pressure put on them.
L:	By giving the peers the information through..
J:	From a friend of a friend, or hey, somebody said -
L:	Through the operation of collecting covert operations and illegal records.
J:	Right. With Breckenridge I remember specifically Marty spouting off like [TAPE SIDE ENDS]
L:	Starting again with side two, you were talking about Judge Breckenridge and Marty Rathbun talking about.
J:	I remember Marty Rathbun actually saying something to trying to get some women in on Breckenridge.
L:	To set him up with prostitutes?
J:	Yes.
L:	Do you know if that covert operation was actually done?
J:	No, I do not.
L:	Let me go back, we'll come. These are the tangents. It may look like we're going in tangents, there is a direction, I see something appearing here, a fabric.
J:	John Peterson is getting paler, and paler, and he's getting skinnier, he's just in bad health. I remember going to see him, and he was just not well. Then, he was talking to someone, I think Marty was really harassing him about his auditing, and how they had just had an argument about it. I think that he died that day.
L:	He died that day. They were harassing him to get more auditing. Do you know what kind of auditing he was getting at the time?
J:	Life repair.
L:	Life repair, isn't there some OW Repair, life repair. People telling things they're very ashamed of, it deliberately goes into embarrassing situations in a person's life.
J:	Yes, yes. Cause it had already happened to Joe, and Joe was livid about it.
L:	When he was livid?
J:	Being sec-checked, and then somebody threatening to tell his wife Dora what the hell he's doing with his girlfriend, the secretary in the office.
L:	So, this actually happened that they coerced him to get this auditing, got him to confess that he was being unfaithful to his wife, and then threatened while he was still a lawyer for Scientology, I mean he's still working for them and they're threatening him that they'll tell his wife about his affairs -
J:	If he doesn't' straighten up, stop having affairs and be more amenable to what he's being told to do.
L:	Be specific. What was he being told to do?
J:	He was supposed to be the lead counsel for Religious Technology. That meant that he had to devote every ounce of his time to Scientology, as opposed to having multiple clients.
L:	Was he asked to do anything illegal, immoral, or that he didn't want to do? Do you know of him being asked to do anything?
J:	No, I can't say that.
L:	I heard from another operative, and we don't know if this was true, that he was asked to obtain illegal medical records on Charlie O'Rielly, to discredit Charlie O'Rielly, saying he was in a mental hospital or a drug rehab program, to discredit him.
J:	He could have been asked to do that.
L:	You have no knowledge.
J:	That would be something that Marty would have pulled him to the side and spoken to him.
L:	Is Marty the person who generally - Who runs most of the dirtiest operations?
J:	Marty.
L:	Marty Rathbun is the guy, and then he passes the data on to -
J:	He has little clones, like Lynn Farney is just one of them. He was like the guy doing the dirtiest work. And Ben Shaw. He and Ben Shaw were doing the dirtiest work.
L:	Besides Lynn Farney, Ben Shaw - .
J:	Gary Clinger.
L:	Gary Clinger, Marty Rathbun, who else is most involved in the criminal side of Scientology?
J:	David Miscavige? L. David Miscavige. J. Lyman Spurlack on the corporate level. He is so dirty. L. When you say corporately, he's dirty, specifically what does he do that's illegal?
J:	Tax, and how corporate's set up, undated resignations before you start. Just the shit thing, like the corporate integrity, hiding that. He is the one who has done that all along.
L:	Scientology swears that they stopped undated letters of resignation at the time of the GO, at the time of Mary Sue Hubbard being kicked out, that was the old bad guys were doing that.
J:	No, I did it in '82. It was conditional to being on the board. It was we're not supposed to do this, we say we don't do it, but you have to do it.
L:	Who told you that?
J:	Lyman Spurlack and David Miscavige.