Tape 2, August 24, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Who said that?
J:	I'm not sure who said it, but I know who did it.
L:	Who did it?
J:	Gary Clinger.
L:	Gary Clinger.
J:	Right. He rented an apartment above the ACC and used sound listening devices to hear what was going on downstairs.
L:	So, Gary Clinger was a part of the church of Scientology?
J:	In the Religious Technology Center, one person that was directly underneath me in doing investigations.
L:	He was in intelligence?
J:	He was an intelligence case officer.
L:	Did David Miscavige see information regarding illegal surveillance?
J:	On a daily basis.
L:	So he was reviewing this, knew this was illegal?
J:	I was the person who would actually get the reports written from the case officers. It was my job to take the case officer reports from RTC to ASI for Lyman, Marty, Dave Miscavige.
L:	So all three of them were getting those reports?
J:	Yes.
L:	And they had knowledge of the illegal activities going on?
J:	Yes. I would get intelligence reports from the OSA network of some of their operatives, not all.
L:	So you had numerous operatives from different operatives.
J:	Numerous case officers from different operations reporting daily.
L:	Is it reasonable to say that OSA had a few of their people in there, you had one of your people. I've been told by another operative who came out of OSA that they always run on threes. Usually three operatives who don't know on each other, so they have plausible, deniability and if they lose one they've got the others who can be used as back-ups and also verification that one isn't lying to them.
J:	Totally correct. I would get reports from one incident from three different viewpoints, and they would never state who the agent was, and they would report it pretty much like the news. Sources say blah, blah - They would say eyes only. When you read the report you just automatically shredded it, so that there was never a compilation of intelligence reports. The rule, shred them.
L:	You shredded a lot of reports?
J:	Every day.
L:	Did you ever receive a report that they had planted false documents inside of this religious competitor, David Mayo's group? That Bob Mithoff had planted, or someone had planted false documents inside the organization?
J:	That part I honestly don't recall. I do know that Bob Mithoff stole financial records and turned them over to the church.
L:	Stole the financial records?
J:	Stole or copied them and sent them.
L:	Of this competitive religious..
J:	Because we know how much money they were making every week and we knew who they were auditing. Also we were doing ops on the people who were going to the AAC, to discourage them from going..
L:	You were doing covert operations on the members of this faith, this religious splinter group, breakoff group, to convince them not to go into this organization.
J:	Right, we would generally harass or threaten them.
L:	Harass or threaten. Can you be more specific on how you would harass or threaten or try to convince them to stay away?
J:	Multiple phone calls, following, we had a private investigator to follow them around.
L:	Was it obvious following to intimidate?
J:	Yes.
L:	It was done deliberately just to intimidate the person.
J:	Yeah, I remember, this one time where we actually got David Mayo on TV. He thought he was doing a television program, this is something Gene Ingram arranged. He was sitting there, they had the lights, camera and all this stuff, they just made him look like a complete fool. There was never any TV, there was never anyone interested in what he was doing. He surely thought it was. That was a common operation, as I'm recalling here. To send someone as a concerned reporter from some newspaper who is going to help you expose their terrible things that Scientology is using, even just how bad you're trying. When, in fact this is simply a private investigator.
L:	Trying to get how much you will dump. So they did this to Mayo. Do you remember any specifics..
J:	Bent Corydon, too.
L:	Bent Corydon. Do you know any specifics of any of the members of this new religious group?
J:	Flo Barnett.
L:	Flo Barnett was harassed, covert operations were done on her.
J:	That was taken outside of the scope and view of anything that I could see. Once it came up that she was on lines, it came up from the sources that were doing operations for the Religious Technology Center that she was the person who came on lines. At that point that information was turned over to David Miscavige, her ASI. At which point we no longer had anything to do with the Flo Barnett situation.
L:	Do you think, in your experience of running covert operations, was there ever another time another covert operation was taken away from your area, besides Flo Barnett? This could be because maybe they thought it was too hot to handle.
J:	Let me write that question down.
L:	Was there any other covert operations that you were involved in were removed from you during the period of your handling them? I guess what I'm curious about is did they remove Flo Barnett from you as a matter, of some security situation or risk situation so high, was it a risk situation or was it an embarrassment situation? By asking this if it ever happened to you before, if you can remember, with this type of risk they would always take it away from me, that would tend to indicate there were risk situations that were removed from you. But if you're never had anything ever taken away from you, ever, and all of a sudden they take Flo Barnett away -
J:	That was the first time I recall, because it was personal to David Miscavige, and he took interest in it and that was it.
L:	Did the church consider that David Miscavige was trying to produce a reformed or better Scientology, not Miscagive, but David Mayo. Did he claim that he was doing it the right way, the best way, that he was reforming the delivery of the technical services? Did he ever make these claims that were known about inside Scientology?
J:	I think that David Mayo's claim was that he wrote, or was the author of the NOTs materials anyway. He could do it better than anyone in the church because he was the guy that wrote it.
L:	He invented it.
J:	Not invented it, but wrote it, and very well did invent a lot of the things that he wrote about anyway. Just based on what he told me, he would sit there with L. Ron Hubbard, and L. Ron Hubbard would have an idea, and then Dave would have an idea, say what it was, and they'd say, "Yeah, this is good, write it up." That's the way the NOTs series got written. I think it was 1-48 that came out like that. I think during my time it went up to 53. I think finally you start seeing Mithoff on the end, writing his own stuff, getting himself established as a technical source after David Mayo left. Then also, they went through and revised some of those things to make it seem like what David Mayo was bad or wrong. For the most part they pretty much stayed the same.
L:	Do you thin..
J:	To answer your question, his biggest thing was, "Hey, I wrote these materials."
L:	Do you think they revised his stuff, not because it was really anything wrong it, but it was part of a discrediting program.
J:	Total discrediting program.