Tape 2, August 24, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Why were they working him like this?
J:	All of us, 125 people were being worked like this.
L:	All on the RPF at this time?
J:	Yes.
L:	So he was worked to the point, 30 hours on, 3 hours off, that he then cut his finger off accidentally?
J:	Right. People are operating major heavy equipment. He went to sleep. Then I remember it came up as an issue. They got married, I believe on the RPF, and it came up as an issue, they were like once a week, they would get a chance to be together as a couple, and have sex. They had done this, and now Cindy Schafner was pregnant. She was being talked to quite a bit about how being pregnant is a bad thing, you shouldn't have kids. I know Bobby was very much crazy over that point. I think he may have been Jewish or something, I'm not sure. I think he may have been. He had deep kind of family morals. His concept of family went beyond what was being forced on him by Scientology. He had a stronger connection. He spoke to me about how important it was to have kids and stuff like that. Then they didn't want him to have kids, and he was constantly in ethics. It was like, you'd just see him with his head in his hands all the time.
L:	Were their penalties if you had kids?
J:	Yep.
L:	What kind of penalties.
J:	Lower conditions, constant lower conditions.
L:	If you got pregnant and had kids you would have to work off a lower conditions and do extra work and everything else?
J:	Right.
L:	Were they trying to convince his wife to -
J:	...to have abortion, yes.
L:	Were they being forceful about trying to?
J:	Yeah, screaming at them, and "why are you so selfish to have a child."
L:	Did she eventually have an abortion?
J:	I don't recall because, shortly after that experience, all the work was done in the complex, so they started feeding the people back into the organizations. You see, during this time, everyone was making like $4.30 a week. But after everything was completed in the complex, they sent the mission in to start putting people back into the organizations. He was from Asho, and they sent him back to Asho. I had seen him briefly afterwards, and I do believe him and Cindy had a child together.
L:	So he got off the RPF and this thing about the accident, of what happened to him, this was after he was back at Asho?
J:	Right.
L:	Do you know anything about how it happened?
J:	No, I don't. I remember talking to Bobby Schafner after we had both been out, because I was the person now, who took the majority of the people who had been in the RPF to make sure that they continued their co-auditing. They set up this board called the co-auditor, and I was in there as a technical person. I would see him and I would say, "How's it going?" He would tell me being at Asho was just like being in RPF, same schedule, not sleeping, not eating, screaming at people, people screaming at him all the time. Made to feel bad that he had even been on the RPF. He just said that he wasn't all that happy.
L:	You think he was working such hours that his judgment could have been impaired because of lack of sleep?
J:	- and food, and nutrition.
L:	Lack of sleep and lack food.
J:	Yeah.
L:	Let's go on to the next one.
J:	OK. Phoebe Moro. I have very little to add about Phoebe Moro beyond that I was there when she passed. I don't know what happened to her, or what her situation was, but I know she was being audited up until the day she died, and they were doing this let the body go kind of thing with her, just like die.
L:	Auditing to help her die.
J:	Right.
L:	Did she have cancer, was she terminally ill?
J:	She was terminally ill?
L:	Do they sell auditing to people who are terminally ill with the hope of cure?
J:	They're not supposed to, but I've seen it time and time again.
L:	Tell me what you saw.
J:	When I was at Flag, as a cramming officer, you would often get people coming in that were terminally ill, but of course, they could petition to get well. There was this guy, his name was Skip somebody. He had a disk removed from his back, he could barely walk. I ended up auditing him for a while. He was always in so much pain, that let alone auditing, just sitting a chair was just a nightmare. Yeah, you had these kind of people on there. There were ones with cancer, I heard, why it would be beyond me to say the name of this one, the name of that one.
L:	Do you remember the names of anyone that you knew that were terminally that were being sold auditing while they were terminally ill to help them cure their illness, like even subtle, any kind of method of giving a person who is in a desperate situation false hope to get them to buy a bunch of auditing, let me know.
J:	That's all I know about that. [Reading] "John Peterson, formerly one of Scientology's leading attorneys." What I know about John Peterson is, he was the kind of attorney that Scientology really used as much as they possibly could, and then they made fun of him. I believe he was gay. They hired him and they would use him to pay for investigations that he knew very little of. In other words, people like Marty Rathbun, Gary Clinger, and other people that had much experience in dealing with private investigators and calling the ops, having them do things, this was - John Peterson was like the guy that all the money went through. That's majorly what he was used for. At a lot of the major meetings, I guess he was satisfying his conscience of trying to have some idea of the magnitude of things that were being done in his name, with the amount of money that was being funneled through him to pay private investigators to do these ops. To pay Bob Mithoff, everyone was paid.
L:	Do you have any idea how much these people were paid? Any round estimates for different operations or different projects?
J:	$15,000, $20,000 to Bob Mithoff.
L:	For how long a time?
J:	A month, a month and a half
L:	For a month and a half to infiltrate a rival church, to destroy -
J:	Steal records -
L:	steal records -
J:	provide mis-information.
L:	Did he help bug the place?
J:	No, but I know he broke in. He got it where they had their secret materials locked up, he actually broke in there and stole their materials. Planting mis-information within the group, and being generally secretively disruptive.
L:	Was David Mayo's group considered a competitor religious group?
J:	Yes, only in the field of LT levels major.
L:	Was there any one inside the church of Scientology who you know who said, "we need to destroy this religious group that David Mayo is running?"
J:	Sure.
L:	Who?
J:	David Miscavige.
L:	They literally said, "we need to destroy the AAC?"
J:	Right. Vicky Azaran. I myself said we need to get rid of him.
L:	Was there any discussion about what you would do to destroy this rival religious group?
J:	Yes. There were mention of just running it into financial ruin by just running operatives, covert operations, suing, endless litigation to bankrupt them.
L:	Did anyone ever actually say, that you remember who and what, that we want to plant electronic eavesdropping equipment in this organization?
J:	Yes.