Tape 1, August 16, 1998

Lawrence Wollersheim and Jesse Prince

L:	Who would ask that?
J:	Person in, well, this is how they mask and do this hypothetical situation. Like Lynn Farney, who's assigned to a case would say to an attorney, "Would it be helpful if we knew such and such about that judge, or another attorney, like if we knew, if we came up with information that says he hires prostitutes every other weekend or he's cheating on his wife, or whatever? Would that help us, or he's already prejudiced against Scientology and he's been saying whatever." Whatever kind of dirt they could dig up, an attorney would say, "Yeah, yeah, that would be helpful." Scientology would give a hypothetical situation to attorneys, "If we had this information, would it help our case move along?" "Yes." Of course, he knows what they're talking about. So then they go to a person like Gene Ingram and say, "Look, let's figure this out, we need to know this about this guy, where need to know where's he at, we need to know who he's calling, we need phone records, we need this kind of stuff."
L:	They would actually tell Gene, "We need the phone records, the bank records."
J:	Yep, right. And then to Gene, "Who can get it?" Well, Gene, "I know so and so and so, he can do it, he can do it, but it's gonna cost you." So Gene would set it up, have the act done. Then they would tell the attorneys, "We're going to get this information, we're hired this person who comes to your office and you pay them." They just basically shelling money through.
L:	A couple of important questions: Who would generally tell Gene Ingram to go out and get phone records and bank records? What person?
J:	Marty Rathbun, Lynn Farney, I'm talking about during my period of time. Lynn Farney would do it, and then there was a guy, Ben. Ben somebody from OSA. Ben Shaw?
L:	Ben Shaw? OK. Did they know it was illegal to obtain bank and phone records.
J:	No, see, of course. But it's part of their policy, ODC/CDC.
L:	They're going to get whatever they can, but the important distinction, did they know..
J:	I can't speak for everyone's mind. They knew it was illegal, but they knew how to do it so they would never get caught at it.
L:	They knew it was illegal, they asked for illegal documents, they paid attorneys to break the law and obtain these illegal documents -
J:	They didn't pay attorneys, the attorneys just shelled the money to the investigator.
L:	So, they didn't pay the investigator, they didn't do it directly. The lawyers did.
J:	The attorneys do.
L:	Now, did the lawyers, this is an important distinction, did the lawyers know that Scientology was telling the attorneys, telling the investigators to go get bank records and phone records?
J:	Of course.
L:	They knew it. Name some of the attorneys that knew.
J:	Earle Cooley knew what the deal was on everything. John Peterson, who is dead, knew everything. Moxon, as he was coming up and along, he kind of came up through Invest, he came up in that muck, in that filth.
L:	He knew. How about -
J:	OK, go ahead.
L:	Heller, Larry Heller?
J:	Larry Heller, big one, yes of course. Larry Heller, Sherman Linske, his little brother.
L:	Drescher?
J:	That's not one that I'm familiar with.
L:	How about the Yingling group? Monique Yingling?
J:	I don't know, I'd have to see some stuff.
L:	That's a new name. Any other Scientology attorneys that you knew who knew their private investigators were going out and getting illegal documents and they were paying them for them? The illegal documents, the phone records - Joe Yanni's OK, leave him off. Do you want to repeat that?
J:	No, I'm never going to speak against Joe.
L:	Joe's OK, I deal with him all the time, so does Margaret. We've been through all of this.
J:	I don't want to say anything about him, without his permission.
L:	Did these bank records, I've had my bank cracked three times.
J:	It's not hard.
L:	Three times, with codes on it. Somebody is paying money to get the bank records. They ain't getting it from a teller.
J:	Do you want to open that can of worms? Get their lead counsel and all their sub-counsels and subpoena, I want to see how much money you're paying investigators. You will find that to be an inordinate amount of money that the attorneys themselves are paying.
L:	How much do you think they pay for illegal bank records? What do you think, $2,000, $5,000? Any kind of a guestimate?
J:	That was on a need to know basis. Everyone didn't have that information.
L:	Question, when they would obtain, when the lawyers would get the investigators to go out and get the records -
J:	You're not listening to me. Lawyers had nothing to do with it. The church would go directly to their lead investigators and say, this is - .
L:	So, they would go to the church, and not even the attorneys? The attorneys were paying blind?
J:	Right.
L:	Holy shit.
J:	Yes. They were just told, we hired him, pay the money, boom. They were just used.
L:	That's how they run the scams.
J:	They were just used to pay to make it look legal.
L:	They knew they were -
J:	Attorneys don't even know what they have going on, and they don't want to know and they tell them. That would be good, how you get it is your business, don't tell me about it, but I'll pay some investigators and if you've got some information I can use, great.
L:	So, they're paying the investigator to get the stuff any way they can, they know that the investigators are aren't obtaining it legally, but because they don't see the documents, they're just writing the checks, so it all has the apparancy of legality, at the attorney's office and it has the appearance because Scientology isn't paying for this illegal information, they're just getting it.
J:	Yeah but Scientology is paying for it. It's coming from -
L:	It's being laundered through the attorneys?
J:	Right.
L:	So, Scientology would get the bank records, the phone records, what other illegal records would they obtain that you know?
J:	They'd get your criminal history, that's so damn easy to get, any kind of record.
L:	Like a sealed court record, confidential record, criminal records, they'd get those?
J:	What I'm saying is they would get, if they wanted to know your criminal history, they'd have it like that [Snaps fingers]. Now a normal person can't get that. It's not supposed to be available.
L:	What about other parts of the covert data collection? What other things would they do, what other types of information would they accumulate?
J:	Tax records, financial statements majorly, phone records.
L:	Tax records, IRS 1040s, like your IRS records?
J:	Yeah, they would know, they could get that. They could get whatever.
L:	OK.
J:	OK, let's take a break. I'm done with this today.